OverDrive - Johnson on Berube calling out the players, if major changes coming and the top players' mentality

Episode Date: December 19, 2025

TSN Hockey Analyst Mike Johnson joined OverDrive to discuss the headlines around the Maple Leafs' defeat to the Capitals, Craig Berube calling out the players, the mentality of the top players, if the team has to make a major move, the outlook in the Atlantic Division, Tristan Jarry's injury and more.

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Turtles. There he is. What's up, Johnny? How are we doing? Listen, boys, my mom doesn't let me buy her turtles more than a day before Christmas because she'll crush like, no, like my mom,

no willpower. So whether you're 70 or 50 or 30, like there is no stopping that. Like, for a Roche, I guess, Those are fancy. They're all wrapped up. Nice Toblerone. Stick to your teeth too much.

Right, right. The turtle can be damaged. It's no stopping you. So, yes, that has got to be top of list. Yeah. Top of list. It's just a grand slam, man. Like, you can't miss it.

You cannot miss it. I was in the story the other day, and I was going to get some for my mom. I'm like, no, I can't. Yeah, get them too early. And then you just got up to yourself, obviously. Yeah, then you get after them. No. You're right. You don't have them the sun.

Responsibly, you left them there. Responsibly, you left them there. That's right. I would never walk by the aisle in July. I'm like, I'm getting a box of turtles. Never. Never. I'll buy a box of Kit Chats.

But I won't buy turtles. You got a wonder then, is turtles, like, they make all their money in December? Yeah, it's like owning a Halloween store. You know what I mean? You got like a month and a half to just make so much money. In the turtle's office, they're just like sitting around. Yeah. They're not doing anything in June and July.

Ten months. They got a crazy off. season. Anyway, I don't even know how we got there, but dear Hazy-B, we'll get to that a little bit later. Dear Johnny, where do we stand on things with your Bay Police? You're an alumni. You see the way they played last night.

Is it the coach? Is it the players, management? Like, what sticks out to you first and foremost? I'm not going to lot of you, boys. Like, I know I'm coming on at 5. I tuned in at 4. I wanted to hear it. wanted to hear what you guys were going to say.

So I listened to the first half hour and I think it's a bit of everything. You guys covered a lot there and you were largely right. It is the GM for roster construction. It is the coach for I think game plan, like the ideas he has of a game plan as well as

sort of getting the guys to execute the game plan. And then of course it's the players for, like you can ask them to play the worst system of all time relative their talents. You've still got to play it hard. And as Noodle said, like yes there are pretty significant differences in how you can play but you can be out of system let's call it

if you're not playing a system that's ideally suited for you and still be competitive and I think that's where the players have to bear some responsibility because they're I believe I might be with Jonas on this one they're playing out of system like I don't think what they're trying to do is ideally suited for this group now they did have great success in the last year

largely based on their goal tending and their power play and winning a mashful of one goal games but they had great success with it but I don't know if they're this the way they're playing is ideally suited to these guys but no matter what they can play better

than they play the last little while and you guys can feel it you guys are very in tune with the market I'm down there at the games I'm between the benches like I don't want to do vibe checks because that's not sort of how I but like the vibe check on this team

is different and changing rapidly almost than anything we've seen in several years. Several years where, you know, the tension and sort of the scrutiny and the criticism and Craig Barubei no longer saying sort of towing the company lying and being positive

and like, we've got to work some things out, but I liked it. He's like, no, I'm not doing any of that anymore. He's calling guys out sort of directly, the leadership group. They asked them quote, you guys played it earlier. I mean, that's a guy saying, I'm not protecting them anymore. I'm not taking the bullets. I'm not going to go to the spin job.

I'm putting it right on him because it's not that he doesn't care, but I think he's probably exhausted all the other options. I've tried to be the good guy. I've tried to be soft. I've tried to be hard behind closed doors. And now it's not working. So what I've got to do? Maybe we've got to turn the heat up publicly because that's what's happening right now.

And I think for the first time in a decade, for so many of these best players for Nealander, for Matthews, you know, Morgan, Raleigh is largely skated, you know, without too much criticism in his game. Tavares has been celebrated, understandably. So they're getting, like, the idea that they're getting that Toronto heat, which, you know, Toronto could be guilty of, I suppose, or, or, um, suggest that it might be that way.

It's happening now and it feels really different. So I don't know what happens in Nashville. They better win tomorrow because Dallas on Sunday is going to be tough. But I do think the, the questions that have to be asked are, so you can ask do we have the right roster but I think that sort of comes almost third the question is do we have the right system

being implemented by the right coach and that's number one because if it's not the right system then I think Craig Brubet's smart enough he probably even if he doesn't want to could figure out other ways for them to play like it's not like it's that confusing so that's question one is it the right system

with the right coach putting it in and then the second question is do we have are the players willing to embrace trying to do that system at best they can and i got to like i want to believe the players want to do well they don't want to pout and throw the towel and be disinterested some of the stuff they get criticized of um you know with good reason at times but i just wonder does that conversation happening is tray living asking baroubae is baroubae asking the other coaches okay are we given this team the best chance to be successful because I think what we've seen so far and we're 35 games in

this season, 33, whatever it is, that them being asked to play the way they're being asked to play, they can be competitive, they can win games. They might make the playoffs. They're not a good team. They're not an upper echelon team playing this system with these players. I don't care. Like they can play harder. They can be grittier. I don't hear any of that. I just don't think this system, these players, as it is right now, they're an upper echelon team. They're not a Stanley Cup contending team like this. They just aren't. Whether they have

injuries or not, and I think that's where they got to go and try to start through some of that sort of wreckage in the fallout. So just to pile on that or jump on that, Johnny, quickly, if they decided, and Chiefs a smart guy, if they decided to play a different system,

does that take the team were you saying to another level, or it just at least gives them a a different look like that's what i what i mean is is this team much better playing a different system playing the sheldon keef system like you're going to ask the i think the best players and okay so yeah that's fair enough go ahead yeah i think the best players could be way better in a different system yes i do i do now do i think dakota joshua not the pick on me he's playing well so it's either good got to pick right now but if dakota joshua or nick wogg

going to thrive in a different kind of system, up-tempo, puck possession, rush-based system? Maybe not. But you're not going to win or lose sink or swim with Joshua and Wall. You're going to sink or swim with Matthews and Neelander and Nyes and Tavares, I suppose, up front. And I think, you know, what they're trying to do, what they're doing is not maximizing those guys specifically. One quick thing on top of that. You also need to get the puck to do that. correct and I don't think their D

it's been a problem for two years they don't move the puck well enough their D like as a group but make no mistake noodles right this is not a this is not a 25 26 problem like look at the numbers from last year their possession numbers they were like

near bottom of the league like as you went along so possession numbers near bottom the league expected goal numbers were like 24 high danger chances were like 16 so they got better sort of incrementally they got closer their net but they were not and this is the difference and this is sort of the whole thing with this team and how they're like they've not been good under craig baroube in these sort of

underlying numbers that offer sustainable success that's the key word they had the second best say percentage last year yes right right everyone who's got the second best say percentage has a good team whether they're playing well or not right and they had one jonas one with that power play fifth seventh top five whatever they were in the power play really pretty good right right so like that's how you win close games and i I think what's happened is the power play's fallen off and the goaltending hasn't been as great. It's been fine, but not as

great. And they lose post games. But largely playing the same way. And yes, Mitch Marner off the roster is part of that equation. But it's like, it's not like they were some juggernaut last year. This is not revisionist history. I had this conversation previously and people like, well, who cares? They're winning. I'm like,

I get it. I get it. But so many things are falling their way that is allowing them to win last year. It's not falling their way this year. And I think that's where the system stuff needs to be explored it's fair it's just i i have a tough time philip myer living in that system but he played on the team last year listen that that defensive core who's the best puck mover back there riley or eckman larsons exactly yeah you're not wrong although i'm not gonna lie to you guys that's true off a four check you want to know who the best passers were the puck

last year tan evan mccabe yeah off a four check yeah like you can talk about stretch passes but under duress, those two guys are the ones who got the puck out of the zone. They knew out of play. And that's been, that's 100% of problem, noodles. 100%. That's why I brought it up.

Hopefully when he gets back, we'll be better with a better foot. Like he'll move and sort of be able to pass the buck around a bit better. But yeah. And it's just totally legitimate. It's one thing to say you're not playing the system that maximizes the fords on this roster. But maybe you don't have the horses,

like the personnel to play that kind of system because you can't pass. the buck you can't that's why Troy Stetcher looks so good because he skates he comes around the net and he drops the fort checker and he sort of joins the rush just because he can skate well noodles can I give you a stat but then yeah sorry Mike

go ahead go ahead I just want to ask noodles so they are 31st in the league and the amount of time spent in the offensive zone at even strength what is that isn't that on the coach like isn't that 30 first or the team's no good or the team or

The team is no good. But that means there's no talent, and I don't think we think that. But I think about, this is where I struggle with, guys. I don't know how many times people say to me, this team is so talented. I disagree. I think they've got a few talented players and then a bunch of other guys that are just carbon copy of other teams. Like, that's the way I look at it. The difference in the last couple years is you had four guys that could separate anything in any given

night. That's the way I looked at it, is the Leafs can play any different style, puck possession, not possession. It's two, two in the third period. One of those guys goes, I got you, you know, or overtime, and there's more ice out there for more skill for those four guys. You lose one of them, and the other one's 35 years old. Now you're down to two.

Everyone says NISE. I mean, Johnny, you've said, Nyes is a really good player. I don't see him as a star. I see him as a really good player. So what I look at it is There's a lot of interchangeable players on this roster With two superstars and everybody else So to me they've got to play differently

There it is then Like if you're saying they have two stars And a whole bunch of similar players So what does Ottawa have? Three stars? Like you can get a system that doesn't have you 29th in possession in the league Right? Like where you're not getting outshot

27 of 33 times you can create system play to find a way to either level the playing field because what they're doing now is not it's both not maximizing their superstars or leveling the playing field to make everyone sort of mediocre like get them in the pack it's doing neither it's hurting the best guys and also having them get caved in and so like you know figure out what you want to do try to make the other guys just tread water and the stars win for you that was last year that might not be feasible this year because of whether health, personnel, whatever, goaltending, then you have to find something else. Then, like, I'm not a coach, so I can't necessarily tell you what I would do, but, like, you know, I do like the idea

of having the puck more. And I watch them do this, and I try to draw, like, they do the stretch, tip dump as much as any team I can remember seeing, right? So they post guys up at the far blue line, they wire a puck up there, they chip it in. The guy

who chips it is standing still, so he's never going to get it. Some guy from the other side who was also standing still the blue line, he tries to get in the forecheck, and this is where the speed factor comes into play. I don't think the guys don't want to work hard on the forecheck. I don't think they're not fully bought in trying to get the puck back. What I think

is that they're not there fast enough that they can't do it. Right. And so like, that's just an example. I watched them play like that in the neutral zone. I'm like, this is why you never get the puck back. The dump and chase doesn't have the chase is the dump and turn it over. So these are the conversations.

we're having, I feel like they must be having to try to find other better ways to get more. Other than saying try harder. Because try harder for me falls sort of on deaf ears after a while. Well, everybody tries hard. You're not out there. There is some lazy players in the league, and you watch them all throughout the league, but they're opportunists. That's what they are. They try hard when they need to try hard.

The puck gets close to them or whatever. but I do think something has to give with this group. Brian, I'll go back to you. This is what you said right at 4 o'clock is what's going to give here because you're 33 games in. Where are you at? Where do you go from here? Well, this is where I think there's, you know,

there's a certain age of the fan base that's getting nostalgia here because at some point ownership has to be included in the vision of where this is going, not just about can you beat Nashville tomorrow or Dallas on Sunday, not just can we find a way to salvage and get into the playoffs. If it's a bigger picture conversation, it's coinciding with Jonas, your article, where they're not

even selling out right now. It's not that they're a mess, but that's a shot. That goes all the way up the chain. You got Keith Pelley here, who's relatively new. Keith is trying to win. He's looking down the street, and his counterpart is Mark Shapiro. That guy is riding high right now

within the same ownership group. They don't fall under the same umbrella, but I'd be shocked if there isn't some competition. there, right? Keith is probably looking at him saying, all right, look what's going on with the Jay's down Bremler, I've got to find a way to get this cooking. That is nostalgia that I think scares Lee fans. Because

what happens generally is patchwork, right? And it becomes delusional sometimes. It becomes we've got to do whatever we can to find a way to win right now and then you lose sight of the big picture or you're just simply off base in terms of the evaluation. Well, and then you create this. You may not be

that good. Then you create the cycle of like you fire the coach then the season just doesn't work anyway and then you fire the GM and then it's like you're in the same position. Then where are we going or we trade more picks and prospects and we're trying to get back. We've got to get in the dance.

This is the thing and we might be in there already. Like the greatest mess up you could do as a GM is not making bad trades is not accurately assessing where your team is. Who your team is. And we might be in there because they traded a first in a prospect for Brandon Carlin. for Scotty Lawton, right?

They did that, assuming we're going to be a Stanley Cup contender, we're going to finish in the top seven, that pick is going to be 25, and we don't need to worry about it. It's the go back to the Phil Kessel trade. The Phil Kessel trade was fine, except the Leafs were terrible and not good. So now it turns out to Tyler Sagan

and Dougie Hamilton get drafted with those picks. It wasn't the evaluation of the picks, is the evaluation of where your team stands. You were talking about Rasmus Anderson. This is the challenge with Rasmus Anderson. What are you going to trade another first round pick for him? How good do you think you are?

They do at 28. 2027 or 28. I think that's complete malpractice. And that's what I'm saying. And then that's where, and this is where I spend time thinking about this. And making trades is tricky. Roster freeze tonight. So it doesn't even matter what happens this weekend.

Nothing's happening. There's a roster freeze. Guys have no trade protection earned. Are you going to trade a Matthew Nis away? Of course not. There's no way. There's no way you're going to do that, a young player. So making big deals of consequence, really tough to do.

But also, furthermore on that quickly. Not really as hard to do. Trusting that the GM, who has put these pieces together, if it gets to a point where they go, okay, this is, I don't know if you want to classify an end of an era, or we've hit a stalemate, we're not as good anymore, we've got to adjust. Is Tree Living the guy that you trust to adjust into the next wave?

like that's what they have to be asking right now if you're Pellian ownership like if he comes to you and it accurately assesses what you just said that we're not that good we missed we got to make adjustments we got to trade pieces off we got to gain some flexibility we got to bring in picks we got to bring in prospects

seems like a very reasonable pitch what also comes with that is him saying you got to give me three years to complete it right so I don't know I mean also saying it was me who put us here right yep And that's where the coach move comes in.

And that's what, and it's not that I, for a second think Baroube should be fired or deserves be fired or whatever. He's not good. I'm not saying that. But this is sports. This is like when you start thinking if we, because they're so desperate Hayes not to acknowledge what you just said. Like, they don't want to utter those words that we're not good.

We miss the window. It's not happening. We got to, you know, we got to have a pivot. whatever you want to call it and I don't know if they're there yet we might you know last night was not great the last two weeks have not been great

but we are 35 games in so something is here but I don't think they want to go down that road which again leaves you to the path of least resistance is the one that maybe is the least deserved the coach yeah but like I don't think they're there yet

for a second but like something is going to change something is going to happen there is friction forces rub it up against each other right now. The standings, the production of their top players, the energy coming

off the coach, the pressure from the GM and the own new ownership and President Keith's Pell. Like all those things are part of this equation, and all I was like, it feels like I don't know how much longer. 10 days, if it doesn't go better, maybe New Year's. Let's say New Year's, that's kind of

a comfortable number. Something will happen. It will not just be sort of, let's keep racking it up and see if we get better. Let's just go back to the well more time. Something is going to happen. You can just sort of feel it. This weekend feels very substantial. Like if you lose and you look lifeless

at Nashville in particular, Dallas is more reasonable, but still, they're an NHL team. You've got to play. If you think you're a good team, then no one should terrify you. You're supposed to be, you know, you're supposed to be able to go with those teams like that. Those are great, these are great barometers right now.

I also don't know how the fans are going react because they got loud the other night they booed you know remember the sometimes it becomes a mercy play where if the coach is getting cackleston remember that that was it it was like i can't keep putting them out there the thing is the players their approval rating is so low here i'm not convinced we're that far away from the players getting it like a not a larry murphy they were getting it the other night hey i know but i'm talking individual players individual players right the best players the leaders

which is wild yes word that like they're like these are like arguably if you're talking about the best players

you're saying Matthews and Neeland exactly who I'm talking about and you can and you can throw Morgan Riley in there so awesome Matthews will and Nealander are two of the best

eight players in the history of the franchise like it's crazy but it's true yeah Morgan Riley is a top five defensemen in the history of this franchise

they've been in the playoffs nine years in a row and they've had a they won the division last year. They were the only team to take the Stanley Cup champion the seven games and we are 33 games, two and a half months into this and it is flipping so fast and

we can talk about why or why not, but the fact that these guys who should have so much goodwill bank feel like they're getting towards the end of the line where like the tolerance of is getting thin for poor performances. It's happening very

fast. It's happening very quickly. So I quickly, I know we've got to go, but I asked it to starting, I believe Johnny you probably would have heard it. Is the expectations for this group based of where they are too high? Whose expectations you're talking about? You're talking about mine

or Jonas's? I think ours were probably a little bit more tempered than the GMs. And this is the issue. The GM, the coach, the president, when Keith Kelly's talking about winning cups and challenging for Stanley Cups, that's but they say publicly, they often should. I think there probably should have been noodles coming off of last year

where there's so much positivity, it probably was not irrationally, but too high. The expectations were too high coming to this season based on a lot of the stuff that has played out that we could have saw potentially happening from last year and unfortunately for the Leafs have sort of carried forward and the numbers have caught up to them this year.

All right, Johnny. We'll see what they have in store. This weekend, man. There's a lot going on in the league, too. Tristan Jari's on the IR. That just came out when we were talking about this. So there's an introduction to the team. A couple of wins.

I heard, I read a thing, Hayes. Yeah. He's only missed 33 games in his 10-year career on injured on the injured list. So he's not really injury prone, even though it feels like he is. Right. Yeah, no, I know, you're right. It just sucks because you, it's terrible timing. You're trying to settle in, you know, and the thing is, though, you know, that trade had to happen.

So it happened, unfortunately. But Cal Pickard. Well, I think Ingram's going to play. And Ingram's coming up. I like him as a goal. He's going to get chances to play. It might be Ingrid and Jari when it's all said and done, right? I believe that.

That's where I think the end game's going to be. I think it's going to be Jari and Ingram. But Ingram is 28 years old. He's a really good goaltender, but he's had some struggles. Right? And it's well documented, so I'm not, you know, spilling the beans. He's had struggles this last year, and he's working to get his game back in order. It's probably been fast-tracked now with the injury to Jari.

But I think Ingram's going to play games for them, and he's a good goalie. They go 28. They like him. Well, man, it's going to be an action-packed weekend. So enjoy yourself, Johnny, as always, buddy. Thank you for doing this. All right, boys. This segment will be brought to you by turtles.

I'm going to go crush half a box. And a great segment. A great segment. All around. Everyone's having a great time. Great segment, guys. Great segment, guys. Cheers to all of us.

Thanks, Johnny. Appreciate it. Mike Johnson, joining us here on the Maple Toyota Hotline. Do you hear what I hear? It's I Heart the Holidays. I Heart the Holidays is here with non-stop best of favorites 24-7. Gifted to you by Sleep Country.

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