OverDrive - Johnson on Berube's coaching perception, the Maple Leafs' issues and Hughes' trade outlook

Episode Date: November 25, 2025

TSN Hockey Analyst Mike Johnson joined OverDrive to discuss the Maple Leafs' injury bug and Auston Matthews' timeline to return, Craig Berube's leadership to the team and the definition of 'digging in' on the ice, the style of the Maple Leafs not clicking, the Canadian teams rough start, Quinn Hughes' possible trade spots and more.

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country here's mike johnson our ts and hockey analyst joining us here in the maple toada hotline are you are you sniffing that out johnny like we're reaching hey just bad year everything went against the leaves territory here or what i don't think they want to go there although that might be the case given the way it's gone and the injuries the performance but i mean oh says nashville and that makes sense except in that example they followed up with another bad year. Like I don't think Maple Leaf Sports wants to say this group and this commitment

is now window shut. They're getting worse. They're going to be out of the playoffs. I don't think they're at all ready to concede that on any level. Not this year. Not going forward. So that's where I'm like, you talk about scenario X, coach Y, result Z. Eminton O'Ler's two years ago.

Jay Woodcroft. Good coach. Really good coach. He was replaced for Knoblock and then they went on to the Stanley Cup final two years in a row. I'm not saying that would happen if they did that, but I think it's a pretty parallel situation in that good team, high expectations, tons of talent that you can't really change that much, but what can you change? And this is where it's unfair to coaches, where it's not the coach's fault, but we know that coaches are the easiest and most likely thing to change

because players of consequence are difficult to change. So yeah, but I will say, you mentioned the injuries. And I think what the injuries give everyone around the Maple Leafs right now is a chance, to extend the timeline of decision making. Because they can say, listen, we're without six regulars. We can't make a decision right now. Let's see what it looks like when we get both our goalies back, when we get all our D back, when we get Austin Matthews and Matthew Nyes,

then if we struggle, then we have that different kind of conversation. But I think the injuries extend that timeline. If they were 100% healthy today, I imagine these kind of conversation would be going on in different places beside this. Yes. Yeah.

Right? Like in the halls of the executive of Maple Leaf Sports, you're like, hmm, what are we going to do here? Because this is not good enough. Yeah, I mean, it's a great point, Johnny. But the only problem that I have is, like, this isn't a team. You said, like, a ton of talent. I don't see it that way.

I think there's top end talent, but then it falls into a lot of, oh, calls them, J-A-G. Is it J-A-G that you call them? Just the guys? That was somebody, yeah, just the guy. That wasn't my term. That was presented to me. Yeah, but that's where I think the team is different this year. Like in years past, the identity of the team, I think, was quite clear.

They had high-end talent that could win them a game at any moment because it's Marna that does it. It's Matthews that does it. It's Neelan that does it. It's Raleigh, you know, it was deeper. I look at it this year, and they're a different team. So outside the injuries, I'd like to see them healthy. but I still think they're adjusting as to like, hey, we don't, you've talked about it. Who's the puck transporter missing from Marner bringing up the ice?

Who's your quarterbacking the power play? Who's doing these things? They still haven't adjusted to, you're only 20 games in, but it's 20 as enough. There should be that adjustment there, and now you throw in the injuries and inconsistencies, and it doesn't look great. That's why I've been defending the coach. I'm like, you put any coach on that, it's not looking great, they get healthy and then you figure out what you've got to do.

I would just say this, Noodles, and you're right in a lot of different ways. What you usually associate high-end talent with is scoring goals. What are they in goals? Like fifth. They're not having a hard time scoring goals. And like, I get it. Their team is different and they miss Mitch Martin of a lot of different ways. But I think what you would get in a different coach, and I'm not advocating for Craig Barubei.

Craig Brub is a good coach, clearly. He just wanted to stand the cop recently. And he led this team to a division title and as deep as they've been in 20 years. But I do think if you went stylistically in a different direction, you would get different results. Now, I'm not saying I'm not a coach. I can't devise, you know, system play top to bottom to make this group better. But as it stands now, when they were healthier without Wall and Lawton and when they're unhealthy, trying to play the system they've been asked to play

whether it's replicating last year or tweaking last year, it's not working. And so I think that's what a different voice is. Not that they're a better coach or Craig Brewbe is not a good coach. It's a different system. And I think you might see different results there. So, yeah, I think they are a talented team because what separates most teams in the NHL

is the high-end guys, not the just-a-guy guys. Because lots of teams have just-a-guise. They might be a bit better. in other areas, but the difference makers in winning and losing are the high-end guys. And right now,

the high-end guys, and I think the other part of this conversation that needs to be said is that all the referencing to last year and how great they were last year, they got great results.

They weren't a great process team last year. Like they were sort of middle ground and chances and in shots and expected goals and all those things. But goaltenders, amazing. Power play, amazing, stars. They were not some wagon that just rolled over teams game after game after game.

They went from middle of the league this year to bottom third of the league. But they didn't go from 5th last year to 25th this year. They went from 18th to 25th. The drop has not been as precipitous. It's the goaltending largely and the power play that have stopped them from getting points. Because last year, under Craig Barubei and this system, they won games. They did not give up a lot of goals. but process-wise, they were not that strong last year either.

Well, like last one on this, and I'll ask you guys because you played in the NHL, when you hear the coach say, we just got to dig in more. How do you, what does that mean to you? When you hear your coach say, we just need to dig in more. How do you respond to that? It's very simple to me. It's like we're not a hardworking team. We have guys that aren't committed to just doing small things.

And that's been the critique of the Maple East. for the longest time. They don't want to block shots. They don't want to take a hit to make a play. They want an easy game. Pretty simple to me. I mean, I think as a player, when I hear that, it's more like, it translates to physical, right? Because I think when you have a two-on-one me and Hayes going down the ice, we are trying our hardest to score, right?

Like, no one doesn't try their hardest to score. I think I associate that I always with some of the stuff I was talking about, blocking shots, taking hits and making hits and being gritty, whatever. And I, but if I'm, and I don't know if I was kind of wherewithal when I played to kind of take a step back. I'm like, to me that is coach speak and it's okay for

the public. But if the answer I think is always, just work harder. Just try harder. Like I think at some point there's got to be a different answer than just try harder. These guys are professionals. They are trying hard. No one goes out there not to try. Either you've got to find

a different system or you've got to find different players because I believe the majority of the players in the NHL are basically trying as best they can all the time and so that's where I associated with working hard but hopefully behind closed doors it's more hate not only do we have to be

grittier at what I was saying but we also need to do this execution system play position play defensive mindset different things beyond just try harder because try harder can only take it so far yeah it's a blanket statement

I would use the word details, and it comes back to a small detail of being, you know, between the net and the puck in the defensive zone, logging a shot instead of making it look good, like you were almost there. But to Johnny's point, Jamie, it's like he just said, it's the best league in the world. How do these guys need the details, like shove down their throat every single game? I don't, Johnny, you're in the rinks every night, and I'm watching other teams. This is the thing. The league is different now.

I don't know. We had Joel Quinville on yesterday. They said they don't have a practice time. Like they're just, you know, it's about rest over practice. It's about, I, I'm shocked. There's nights where I'm watching, and I'm like, that should be an easy out. And it's like, I can't execute a 10-foot pass. It's the best league in the world.

And like a 10-foot pass blows up on a guy's sticker, he misses him, he hits him in the skates. And because the game is so fast, instead of stopping on plays, it's like circle and, And everything is just kind of like, oh, that play blew up. Let's try the next play. I feel like there's a mentality in today's game because the game is so fast. It's like keep the play going, keep it at a high rate where I think some of the details are missing. Maybe I'm old school in that mentality, but it's just I look at it and the game is really sloppy on a lot of different fronts. And I don't know how you crisping things up if you just, if you focus on making a 10-foot,

past you should be able to do it like that's the best league in the world yeah and i don't know how many times i miss it it's crazy 10 foot passes but i mean what was your what was your make on saturday night johnny like saturday night like that was just i think a lot of yeah saturday was tough was tough i mean you know they were not checking well and if it was a one-off game you'd like it's okay everyone has bad games right you're gonna have 10 15 kind of bad games but the point is there's too many moments like this for the leaps that you can't just write it off by saying it's okay because next game they'll be better because next game they haven't always been better we talked about what carolina 10 days ago being rock bottom haze you're like

this got to be it shot attempts 95 to 35 there's got to be it 10 days ago now Saturday's got to be it you think i'd say noodles is that i think you say details i guess i put an execution because everyone's going so fast it's harder to make plays that look good like to time it properly whether it's defensemen grabbing the puck, selling the puck, seeing the play, making the decision, making the pass. The windows are tighter now than they used to be when we played where people just were not moving quite as quickly.

But again, that's on the players, always on the players, for sure. But I do think getting a system in play, knowing what we know, this is not news to coaches around the league. They watch the games, they have the same information. Then you devise a system that allows

for support when things go wrong. Like a past the skate should not be a three on one. A pass in the skates should be into a three on three. Right. This is like you move things around in this way. You know, the stretch pass chip in for a four check does not work when the guy chasing for the check is 30 feet back and he's not that fast. Like maybe that doesn't seem like a good system to execute all the time because the guys you have doing it, despite them trying to get there as fast they can, they can't get there as fast they can. Like these kind of things that I watch

when I watch the Leafs, feels like they should clean up and tweak what they are trying to do. And I'm not, again, they have a plan. They want a lot of that plan last year. But again, I just, they play slower in a league that's getting faster. And you can be kind of slower skaters and still play a fast game, but they're not. And that's what I would be trying to work on both with the players but also with the system to make it that they are able to play faster, even if they don't skate faster. Vegas isn't a bunch of lightning bolts out there.

like when you look at them they're not like blazing speed well to be honest they're not playing that well right now either well Florida Florida is a team that everyone's emulating they are a dump and chase team but when you look into the stats

whatever the amount of 20 plus mile an hour bursts in a game they're in the top 10 they find a way within the construct of their sort of dump and chase system to still have moments of speed in the system yeah that's what the Leafs to try to get to. So you can play dump and chase and play fast. You can play dump and chase

and play slow. At least play the same kind of system. They're bottom six in bursts. So, you know, some of that's the skaters. Some of that's the system. And I think you've got to tweak the system to accommodate the skaters that you have because those are the guys in the team. Well, it's an interesting fact to look at too, Johnny, because Florida plays to a man exactly the way that they want to play. And what I mean by that is execution of their structure. So I remember watching a Florida game last year, and it was a two-on-two, and it was Barcoff and Reinhardt.

And Reinhardt dumped it in instead of making a play inside the blue line because they had, I believe at the time, it was Bennett that was driving on the other side. So they knew exactly how that play was going to unfold. So if Craig Barubi asks two-on-two, and it's Neelander and Michelli, is he dumping that puck in for a purpose, or is Neelander trying to make a play? To me, if there's a disconnect, some players want to play one way, other players want to play another way. That's the other thing, too, that has to be looked at within the confines of the structure of a game.

Because Florida all play the exact same way. I would ask this, though. Is it a good idea to ask William Neelie? Lander to dump the puck in a two on a two on two on two. I'd say not. I'd say not. I'd say not. 58 on a two or three. Reinhardt last year.

Like that's my point. 26 of them on the power play, though, noodles. I mean, he had 24 pool power play goals or whatever it was, right? It wasn't all five on five. And again, he's a different kind of player. He doesn't skate like William Eulander. He's better, like, I'm, I'm just saying horses for courses. Like, everyone wants to emulate Florida, but no one's got the same kind of players they have,

the same kind of demeanor they have, the same kind of coach they have. It's just different. So I get taking the template in a broader sense, but how to break it down to apply to your team. Every team is different and everyone got to find, you know, the nuanced, you know, how to apply their own system. And it feels, again, we're talking a lot about systems and coaches. And there are lots of stuff at play here for the Leafs,

including just like, hey, they have to be physically more engaged and physically more prepared. And that is all true. But it's been 20, what are they, 24 games now they played? 23 games, whatever it is. 22 games. So by the end of this road trip, they're a third of the way through their season.

There's only so long you can take it but saying they'll figure it out eventually. They'll figure it out, they'll figure it out. I mean, at some point, a third of the season's gone. If it's not figured out, they're in the last place. Like, I get it, they're not, they're six points out, eight, whatever it is. But, you know, it's two months, plus training cap.

It's three months. Nothing is that complicated. They're doing the best they sort of can with it, and it's just not, working for this group right now no it's not and they're not alone you know and listen it's a weird condensed season too right like there's just with the olympics and the Olympic break and there's there's a lot of games I think that's leading to a lot of injuries you're hearing that throughout the league that there's just so many injuries it's guys you know you're going so fast and you're

moving out a different pace than you used to that guys are getting banged up and you know we were talking about some of the other Canadian teams like right now it's Ottawa they lost last night but they had a really good trip but ottawa's the only team in the top like 16 in the league right now in terms of points in terms of canadian teams like the haves dropping off winnipeg's dropped off edmonton's obviously dropped off calgary Toronto and vancouver have been terrible you know it's it's we feel like we do this every week we reset but it's ugly like it's ugly up here man like it's not a lot of good positive stories in north of the 49th right now oh not according to brucey and you guys

i never said four i still say four you two and brucey said five clubs i say four clubs brucey was committed to five oh was a solid two a firm two for oh i remember this he looks like a genius right now a damn genius i i still think you never know i would take the over i would take the over on two i would um i think winnipeg will get there and hell of them get back and they'll they'll they'll get there johnny let me ask

you this do you think the conucks could slide in? No. My Canucks? No, I do. No, I do not. Big Booster for Vancouver. Oh, really?

Why don't you think, why don't you think that they will slide in? My Canucks. Because they are thin and underperforming with a goaltender who can't stay healthy. They just announced that they're going to trade their veterans for younger players. I checked it today. She's like, oh, who would be available on Vancouver? Leas Pedersen, no move. Brock Bester, no

move. Jake DeBrusch, no move. Evander Cain's got a 16 team, no trade. Tyler Myers, no move. Marcus Pedersen, no move. You're not going to trade Quinn Hughes. Connor Garlick, no move next year. Lankinen and Demko, no moves. Like, they can't Evander Cain is literally, or Kiefer

Sherwood, the guy who has outperformed his contract by more than anyone else on the team. The one guy you want to keep on that team is the one guy that you would trade as a veteran to get younger oh i just don't see it coalescing it fast enough for that team and i think that's a shame because i was holding on to the season damn it's a shame those can i thought i was hanging on to hope for this season man i was really doing it we were having the discussion and dregs gave it to me because i said why not just ripped a band-aid off and just see what like talk to quinn hughes

and just get the most for them right now why do you want to say oh we're going to hold on to this season and then dregs tore my head off and said you don't know what you're talking about you're just a fat ass sitting on your chair making comments direct quote he did not say basically that's what he said verbatim yes oh bring me in next time because you're making a lot of sense you're making a ton of sense and he's going anyways get him out of there now get as much as you can now start the rebuild and then if trading him might also help you massage some of those other no move situations and maybe those guys like realizing hey we're not going to win right now or

we're retooling maybe we're better off going other places. Oh if he's leaving and you're missing the playoffs anyways and now you're announcing you're trading to go younger and sort of recalibrate in the middle of trying to push to be good for him to stay there it's not going to help him stay there

and if we're being honest he's probably going to go anyways and you get that answer from him oh I'm with you you trade him now and you give any team even if it's not Jersey where he eventually we'll want to go, let's just say. And you give them two years of Quinn Hughes for the playoffs,

you could get a mountain of assets for two years of Quinn Hughes on an affordable contract. Yeah. I'm trading almost anything to get that guy for two years. We had that chat in the 4 o'clock hour. If you're a team that is a contender

and you want to be in on it, how far do you go? Do you trade a really good young live roster player, or do you you load up on picks and prospects? If you're Carolina, they've taken big swings, right? Right.

Do you not trade another first and Logan Stankovin for him? Again, Stanky? Stankov was not having a great year. But what if you know that he's told you, you could trade for me, but I'm going to play with my brothers, so I'm not resigning there.

I'm still doing it two years. They traded for Rantanin for two months on the hope that he might say. They're going to get this guy for two years and their window is right. Now, I just said Stankovin because he was just traded for a big player. Logan, you're a good guy. You signed an extension.

I'm just saying, Jackson, Blake, whoever you want to put out there, Svechnikoff, whatever, apparently his name's out there. I'm saying, if I'm Carolina, I go Svech and a first rounder for two years at him, even if I know he's going to walk. I do. Okay. So remind me, though, does Hughes have any control right now? Does he have a no move?

You would have to. I don't think he does know. No. Because, Joe, you can't get them until you're old enough to be a UFA, and I don't know if he's been in the league long enough seven years. Right. I think he's coming up on it. I look at it today.

He doesn't have it this year. It's a martyr scenario. So he's a free, you can send him anywhere. Okay, so in hindsight, and it's easy for us to be heroes to look back. You should have traded Mitch Marner before he had cost control. A lot of people were saying that at the time. Easier said than done. Sure.

But if you're going to blow up the four-for-for-the-the-distance had to do it before he had control. Right. Horano had legitimate aspirations and expectations to win last year. Vancouver, if they're being honest, do not. That's the difference. And that's why letting Mitch Martin are keeping them is defensible because they won the division. They were one of the best teams in the league. To trade that guy in that moment is, yeah, in hindsight, sure.

But what if they get to the third round? What if they win game seven? They're like, yeah, that's why we kept them. So that's the difference. And that's where you're going to be honest with your club. And if you're being honest, that's old was, accurately being honest about Vancouver. Right. You know, it's probably, it would be appropriate to look at that earlier than sooner than later.

Yep. Good job, O'Don. Good job. There's the O'Dock driving the narrative in the country. I love it. I'm just a guy on my chair. Just, no, you're just a fat ass on your chair. Don't forget that, man.

You're really, you're right. I'm just verbatim. Damn, right. Journalist. I'm a journalist. All right, Johnny. for getting that right. Oh, I love it.

All right, Johnny, we'll do it later in the week. Good to see you, buddy. All right, boys. Have a good day. Mike Johnson, joining us on the Maple Toyota Hotline. Get in and go where adventures take you. And a new 2025 Tacoma from Maple Toyota near Canada's Wonderland. The Maple Auto Mall, visit MapleTotter.com.

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