OverDrive - Johnson on McKenna's benching, Hiller's perspective and Tocchet's hot seat

Episode Date: October 16, 2026

TSN Hockey Analyst Mike Johnson joined OverDrive to discuss the Maple Leafs and Jim Hiller benching Gavin McKenna against the Sabres, the firsthand look of the bench in the game, the lack of defensive power on the blue line, Rick Tocchet's seat warming with the Flyers, Rick Bowness blasting his team and more.

All right, here's our TN hockey analyst Mike Johnson joining us here on the Maple TOTA hotline. Johnny, you were, of course, in the building last night. At what point in the game did you realize Gavin McKenna has not been playing for a while? Yeah, I mean, noodles, Frank, you guys know what it's like, I got on the talkback button about five minutes left in the second period. And I just said, when was the last time McKenna was on the ice? Because a lot's going on down there. you're not tracking it to the minute. You just sort of have a sense like there was a penalty,

then a high stick, then a four and four, then a goal. A lot of stuff was happening. And so that was sort of when it started, Hayes. It was like five minutes left. And then we tried, like, okay, you didn't play the rest of the period. And then the third period obviously became very clear what was happening. And that's an entirely different conversation. But I will say this.

Frankie, you could probably speak to this as well, noodles maybe not so much because maybe Hayes, you can too. Like it's not unheard of for coaches to lose track of players at the bench. Like I've sat there for six minutes to be like, I'm here. Like get me out there. I got, you know, just rotation and penalty kill and special teams and what a matchups, whatever it might be. It can happen.

And it doesn't have to be a conscious decision. We're going away from this guy. It just sort of can be a rotational thing. That could explain the second period. That does not explain the third period. because after a break, everyone's cold. You can tell them to get on the bike, warm your legs up, get ready to go because you're going to play again. When you choose to play Brandon Du Hame and Teddy Bluger on a three-line rotation in the entire third period,

you are choosing to forego McKenna. You are choosing experience, strength, I guess a defensive mindset over a guy who makes plays. And that's the conversation that should be being had today. It's not about, you know, Jim Hiller or lost control of his bench. what is he doing? He made a call in the third period to do what he did. And that's the conversation. Was that a good idea? Is that indicative of what he wants to do in the future? He clearly doesn't trust Gavin McKenna yet to play in close games.

But the biggest misread to me, and these are all valid conversations, is the thought that you could somehow take this Leaf team, the way that they're designed with the players they had the game last night and say, you know what? You know, it's a good strategy? Let's park the pots and show out what we defend. Can't do it. Let's just show all we can lock it down.

Because we are so good at that, we are wired like the 95 Devils or No one Wild Team. Like they're not that. They've never been that. And that's where to me, I would want to say, I get sort of the sentiment of wanting to be careful with the two-go lead. But that's not who you are. The Leifes are better off thinking, of course, you want to be smart, obviously. But it's more about let's go get a fifth as opposed to stop them from getting a third. Because that's who they are.

Trying to stop them from getting a third, they're not good at that, and they showed it last night. So to climb on that a little bit, like, I agree. I think the best defense is offense as far as managing the puck and being smart. And within reason, obviously. But do you think, like, we played Jim Hiller's sound earlier. Do you think if he had truth serum, he was actually telling the truth, like, I lost him along the way, or is it as simple as I don't trust him yet because he's 18, and Hayes brought up a point, it's like, I'd rather have just safe veterans out there, and I'm going to roll Nick Paul out and make sure that he's going to try and win a draw. Like, is it more just a conservative approach, or is there something that he didn't like or saw in McKenna so far?

And he's like, I'm not going to deal with that tonight. truth serum if i'm if i think jimler honestly mckenna got lost in the rotation in the second period and then he got to like three minutes left in the period and and hiller thought let's just get to the intermission we got a two-goal lead let's just go a little bit more cautious and then the third period he said we have a two-goal lead it's a big game we really want this one i'm going to limit the exposure of gabbin kennett i don't be set out to not plan at all but maybe it was I won't get him defensive zone starts I won't get him up against different lineups

and then once Tavares got hurt then it was absolutely a conscious decision we're going to nine forwards and he ain't one of them now I do understand once he'd been there let's say it's the 10 minute mark of the second third period or eight minutes left he's been sitting kind of still for about an hour

our actual time and it would be difficult to say hey jump out there in this game that is going fast and furious and make a good play on the wall be strong on a puck battle because he wasn't wasn't sort of engaged the game. At that point, the ship has sailed. But he made a call noodles. And if he was being honest, it wasn't just oopsie. I missed a couple rotations. Like, no, we got to the third. I don't quite trust him. Now, I was doing the game. I watched

a lot of clips back about McKenna. He wasn't, there was nothing agreed just from last night. Right. Where you'd say, I can't play him after that. That is awful. I mean, we saw William Newlander get blown by in the neutral zone on the. the Samuelson goal. There are some moments of McKenna in the neutral zone where he's still figuring out how do I trap like this and cause a disturbance, but nothing

that would say, I can't play you again. And there's also the element of like, you got to play him because guess what, in two weeks he's going to be miles better than the alternative. Even if the alternative is better today, in four experiences, you're going to want Gavin

McKenna, a guy can pass the puck out of his own end to finish off a game more than Teddy Bluger. all due respect to Teddy Bluger. So there is that as well. Like you let him play because he's gifted. He'll figure it out and he cares. So that part, I think he wasn't quite being completely forthright about starting the third period. That is when if you lost him in the second, you could have easily got him shifts,

eased him got him playing again and put it back to the rotation. He chose not to. He chose conservative, passive, defensive, older than McKenna. And that was a choice. So here's a question to all three of you, including you, Hayes, because I know you've gone through this in Barry. When you're not playing, like, is there ever a chance where you kind of lean back and give the horse side to the coach, like try and get noticed? Because I remember being on a bench in St. Louis, and Brad Hall going, 86 over here, 86. Like, basically, I've scored 86 and I'm sitting on the bench right now.

I had a more subtle way of doing it, noodles. This was actually my specialty because I had to do this a lot, like the 90-second TV timeout. Like this is where I really, like I would look to the Getty images. The Getty Images guy in the corner, I'd be like, I'm out here now, you can grab some picks. But what I would do is I would make it very visible that I am like standing up and stretching my legs on the bench

and then I rip one leg over and the other one. And then I go for like a pretty quick twirl through all the people shoveling the ice. So like, even if you're not paying attention, you could see that I was out there, man, 100%. So I wouldn't say 86 because I didn't even get 86 games, but I would make myself visible. I think it's the difference between a player with confidence like Brett Hall and a player with none. I'm blending in. Don't poke it out there now, dude. I'm not going out. I'm done. I'm thinking, like, McKenna's a confident guy. Yes, he would be thinking, get me on the ice. I feel like he might just give a little lean back and a look over type of like lock eyes like mj did you ever do that at any level going

i need to be out there or you know i want to be out there type of thing yeah i would i would not do the power ever i would give especially when i was you know you're playing well i think you have a you're up an important role i'd give like yeah who are you kidding back there like the brady like smart enough just you know give that one and like and then but then i would also be the guy like If it went, my last year in Stanley was, I wasn't playing very much. And once it went like eight minutes, I was a guy like, I should be just on time I skates. Because I'm so checked out of this game. I couldn't stay in it.

Mouth guard off. When the mouth guard comes out, it's like in the glove, like I'm checked out of here. Done. Yeah. Yeah. Well. But to McKenna's credit, guys, just real quick, we had a clip where, I don't know, it was like six minutes left the game or four minutes left the game and Calend got down beside them. Yep.

And McKenna was like smiling and engaging. with McKenna or with Cowan and clearly still invested the game which is a testament to him staying with it. He was ready so this is an interesting potential inflection point Hasey where Jim Hiller is going to

be asked about it. Obviously Gavin McKenna is going to play a bunch tomorrow I can't imagine he's going to be down at six minutes and he will have to decide and he'll have conversations with his staff with analytics with Chica maybe with Matt's and like what are we trying to do here? How do we

we finish off games? Do we get a lead? Like, is this what we're supposed to be trying to do? Do we have the bodies to play it this way or do we have to think about this differently? And one last thought, guys, poor Zach McEwen. Where's the, where's the first of concern for Zach? Get him a shift last night. He played five

minutes. Listen, he was playing. He was up from the Marlins and he was playing. There's no outrage there. I'll say this, though. If you're afraid to play McKenna in close games, you're just never going to play them. Like, there's going to be a lot of close games. this year, like one, two goal games.

So what? He's just never going to play? At some point, you just got to get over it and he's got to play. The thing that is also concerning, and Johnny, like, if you had to talk to the team today and address what is going on in the neutral zone with the defenseman backing into the hash marks when the other

team is crossing the blue line, like, it must look, it must look really stark when you're down there at ice level. How do they fix that? Because Buffalo torches them for two off the rush last night. Utah got him for like three or four off the rush. Like teams know this now.

Toronto's got to fix it. It looks amazing if you're an offensive player. Like there's nothing you like more than a nice, healthy gap between the other teams forwards and their defense. Two parts, Frankie. I think there's one conversation about, hey, we need to manage the puck better. So we're not putting our D in bad spots.

So they haven't got up the ice yet. And they're coming right back at us. Because as you know, you have no gap to begin with. You kind of can't help but back in. But the other part, so that's one. conversation and that's a pretty simple one like don't turn the puck over at the blue line don't make the whole lateral plays like that's a

we've all heard that conversation a million times but the other one is okay we drop it back into a one two two if you think of the Samuelson goal the first forward steering has to do a better job and the second forward who's going to either hold the red line or pinch a guy

off they got to do a better job of not letting them go through like a hot knife through butter like you've got to do something other than stand there at times it looks like You guys, remember when we do the drills in practice where they make the defensive team from their sticks upside down? Yep.

Yeah. To help the offensive team make plays. Token pressure stick upside down with a knob of the stick on the ice. Yeah. Like that's what that sequence right there, Samuel seeing goals, looks like. Token pressure sticks upside down.

Make sure never to touch anyone or touch anything because we're working on offense. You can't do that. You got a hit, bump, slide, press, chip, whatever term you want all the time. every time, and if you get that, then one defense can stand up and one can start to retreat

Frankie in case there's a dump it. Right? Like you can have a bit of a stagger there if you trust the forwards. But if you don't trust the forwards, everyone's inclination is just to just sink. Just sink back, sink back, and Bobrowski gets beaten a good shot

and Jack Quinn beats them and Samuelson beats them and I guess they're good shots, but I'd still love saves. I mean, I still want saves on those plays. I was going to ask you. I mean, the elephant in the room is the goaltending just has been okay. There have been games where they were good, very good. I'm not a couple good ones. Colorado, absolutely.

Vegas, Colorado. Stollars first start against the Islanders, very good, especially in the third. So with that in mind, if I gave you these two options, you got to pick one, which one is more likely to finish in the top half of the league? The goalies, statistically, or team defense for the leaves? The goalies. I mean, I just don't know if the league's have the place. personnel. Like the goalies will be

like the goalies might like they'll have good numbers, say percentage, goal save above expected and they still might have a goal's against a 3.1. Like I just you know just stood by the nature of the team and the dynamic and Tannab's injury and everything else and just look at the

names the guys playing. Their second pair is Morgan Riley and Troy Stetcher. Trouble. That's our second pair. Second pairs play 21 and a half minutes. You know, Blankenberg at Ekman-Larsen. Blankenberg is playing 18 minutes. God love him. He's like, he wants to make plays and he's a decent player.

But, like, and that's with, yeah, he didn't have a contract this summer. And that's with McCabe, who I want to be good so badly, because I really like him as a player, and he's had good moments. He has had a tough start to the year. He hasn't solidified this year like he did two years ago, like he didn't do last year. and Radish, again, say what you want. They did not sign him to play 28 minutes every situation. That was not what they wanted.

He was supposed to be, he's our offensive guy, 23 minutes, all the power plays, all the offensive situations. And we believe he can be a better second pair of defensemen than his reputation might suggest. But he's playing 28 minutes, Frankie. No, I don't. They just don't have the personnel to be a great defensive team right now, even if they try to play the system really well. They've essentially got four guys there that are like third pair of guys. Varying degrees of third pair of guys. You could be a 3A, you could be a 3B.

You'd be a 7 or 8 guy. But that's what they got. And that's what they have to play essentially anywhere between 15 to 21 minutes. So let me, what does it say? What does this say to you, Johnny? When Chica took the job, he talked a lot about how like we need to build from the back end out. And the blue line was very much a priority. And we saw six new forwards.

and we saw, you know, Darren Radish, the one defenseman, and we saw the Marchenko trade. Like, what does it say about the position of defense and how hard it is to actually overhaul your decor? It's just that. They're a lot harder to get. The quality ones are a lot harder to get. There's not as many of them by the nature of the position.

There's half as many defensemen as forwards. It's a lot easier to revamp your bottom six, right? Like, you can, you can, he did, right? He went out there and he made a Nick Paul trade, and he got two haem and he got Lugar and, You know, they tried some different things, and they swung big on Marchenko, who, by the way, was, you know, a couple of games are always flying around and make a play. He's not a perfect player. He got beat in overtime, but you see what he does with the puck.

But Frankie, they're not a lot of good top three defensemen. Doesn't have to be a first pair. Let's just say a solid top three guy. They're not that many of them. And the ones that are out there, they're not available. I mean, so they don't have the assets for Simon Edvenson to go get him or Niketian or whatever. whatever, like that's who they need, but they spent that currency on the Marchenko. That's what, that's what they prioritized.

And it's, you know, you're rob and Peter to pay Paul. You can't have everything because they don't have everything. They don't have enough to get everything. And so they pick forwards, but it goes back to the original conversation. If you're going to pick forwards, if you're going to load up on depth and stars, then when you get up four to, two, don't think we're going to change who we are now. Leopards not changing their spots. We don't have the guys.

So let's just, they were dominating the game playing just as they were with their forwards making plays. Like, no need to change it, because we don't have the guys who are great at doing it like that. How many more losses before Rick Tocke is in trouble in Philly? Because it's ugly, and the players are starting to bite their lip when asked about them and everything. Like, it feels like it's getting to a point

that could spontaneously combust here very soon. I think he gets a transaction first. I don't know what the transaction is. I don't know what it happens. But I think more than when they signed Michael Bunting, they sent, Alex Bump down. Bump, thank you.

They said bump down. Not like that. Like a transaction, that sort of matters. I think he gets one of those. And then if it doesn't turn around shortly thereafter or improve, then how old is if it's his fault or not but they make that move because they you know it doesn't go on forever and you can't fire the player so you got to make changes it would be the coach yeah like you look at it again it's it's particularly ugly because it's the first nine

games if you're in 06 and 3 but it's awful but it's awful they they have scored 11 goals they have a minus 22 goal differential which is is needless to say you know the worst it's worse in Calgary to put that in a perspective. Joseph Wall is top 10 and goals saved above expected and he doesn't have a win. Yeah. There you go. He's actually played pretty well. I looked at it today just for fun. I'm like, well, maybe they're actually

playing better because you know what? No team is this bad in the league. Guess where they are an expected goal percentage? Dead last. Probably like 30%. In the 30s, which is impossible to do for, they've done a tenth of

the season. They're in the 30s for a shot share, expected goal share. So they're getting what they deserve, which is even more frightening. Crazy. They have a goaltender playing well, and they are getting waxed night in and night out, because they're playing as bad as their record shows. That is a stunning development for a team that really was overachieving last year. They did overachieve, and that needs to be considered in all of this, for sure.

100%. Vladar was their MVP last year. Unbelievable. And I like that. He's, I think he's a good goaltender. but he can't score. I watched them live the other day. They're just...

They have 20 less goals in Carolina, and Carolina's played a game less than them. They're 13 points back of Carolina in their own division. Tough to be that bad. 10 points. Numbers are ugly. The weird thing is, guys, like we are going to get...

We are heading into that 10 to 15 game range here. Our GM's going to be itchy here. You have to think Chikas work. of the phones going, I got a nibble around the edges on a D, something. He goes and gets at you Rattie yesterday, which I would think maybe Rattie gets called up to play in space. Yeah, maybe of John Sur. Yeah, he's a centerman.

Like, he's pretty good with the puck. His boots aren't very good, but he's like a smart player. Don't look at your phones. Don't look at anything. Let me ask you this. Through nine games, how much are the Philadelphia Flyers getting outshot by? Oh, I did. We did this other night.

How much do you think? 20 shots. 130. No, no, no. In total. I said 103. 103. 103?

103. Somewhere in between. 119. Yeah. That's their shot differential right now. 20 per night. And where's the score effects? They're losing every game.

They should be getting like what is going on there? It is awful. And guys, if you look at their Wikipedia page, everybody is signed. They got one guy, wrist the line in the back end, pen in UFFF. every other player has term of like two, three, four or more years like they committed to this group

as though it was the group. And it's come so far off the rails, it's hard to figure. Buddy, how about off the rails in Columbus? Like I own, like I'm watching Rick Bonas and I love him and I played for him and I'm watching, I'm like, he doesn't need this. Like he's 71 years old.

And he is so mad. He's so mad that they're 30th in goals against per game. I don't know, like, at what point the guys are going to get it or not. Like, I don't know what's happening behind the scenes there, but it's a fascinating watch to see him lose it like that. It's got to be something behind the scenes that we're not seeing that he's so far. Like, this might be a culture thing that he's come into and going, what is this circus here?

And you know what? You're right. He's 71 years old. He's not going to change. I actually respect it. It's refreshing for a guy to just speak his mind and go, this is ridiculous, and I'm not accepting this. like he was he was respectful about marchenko on the trade he said the guy didn't want to be here you know what we moved on from him and that's life but i think there's just more to this columbus situation than you know a coach just barking like it he's seeing something behind the curtain here that he's not liking and he's not accepting it

but i don't know how you guys feel well i hear you obviously he's showing his cards but he showed them at the end of the last year why didn't his GM change something then for him like why didn't they trade war he can only go to the whip So often. You can only, you know, and I, I say it. Like, Bones is like my favorite coach of all time. I like him as a coach. I like him as a person, you know, whatever. I will say this, though, if I'm in the locker room, I don't love getting lit up publicly every day,

even if it's a problem. And you can respect him saying it, and for sure. But if the goal is to affect change, I don't know if going public day after day after day is the best way to go about it because you're going to lose, and people will hate this. People will hate me saying this, but you're going to lose the guys.

And they'll say, well, they get paid a ton, suck it up, take the criticism. Like, sure, okay, that sounds good in a vacuum. But that's not today's world. That's not today's athlete. That's not the finances of the situation. And if you lose the guys, because they're just, you know, they're not out there intentionally not trying. Like, they got some issues, but they're presumably trying to do what they're supposed to do. Then it, if they check out or tune you out, then it's all over.

Then you're done. Then it's got no chance. What happens when they publicly? You got Warrenski, sitting there too. You got Warreski who hasn't resigned. Well, they were going to trade them. It was sort of tenuously back there. They had a trade ready to go to Dallas, and then he wouldn't wave or something.

Remember that? Yeah, he restricted his trade request. You think he's going to want to extend, like going through a year where it's sort of this public flop? Could you imagine? They were going to get Thomas Harley, and then he didn't want to go, so they didn't. And if they do a trade and they get a player, like, much significantly worse than Thomas Harley, that would be, I'd be pretty better if I were Columbus. Yeah.

Wow. I don't know. We'll see. Like, they're not off to a great start. It's early, but it gets loud quickly, you know, around the league. And when the Pace Guard teams are playing great. And it gets over quick. Yes.

It gets over quick. The math doesn't math for much longer. Yeah. Exactly. Like, they're the same division as Philly, and they're looking at Carolina. the champs are 6-1-1 and just like, let's go. And they lost their first game against Florida. Like they won six in a row in Carolina.

Crazy to say, but in like the next two weeks, it's almost like too late for a lot of teams. It's great. I think it's true, though. For the teams that aren't that good in need to punch above their weight, it's too late. You know what I mean? Like a team that's really good that has a slow start.

Edmonton is famous for that the last five years. terrible starts and then they go all right enough and they're good enough to do that Montreal or Florida these teams they're good and they're going to be able to write the ship there's plenty of time but if you're a team that has to you're not good enough to go on a 10

and 2 run no Philly Columbus consistently good for the start Detroit not good is right now that's Dallas Dallas is 3 3 and 1 like and they're kind of just they're going to be okay they're going to be fine they're a very good team they'll figure it out and they're going to be okay you're right The ones near the bottom, it just is going to drop off quicker.

Absolutely. It seems like that. All right, Johnny. We'll leave it there. Have a great weekend. We'll do it next week. All right. I'm taking the over on Gavin McKenna, six and a half minutes tomorrow night.

Book it. Great. Great. Great bet. Safe bet. Guaranteed money. Yes. Mike Johnson joining us here on the Maple Tretter Hotline.

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