OverDrive - Johnston on the Maple Leafs' lack of winning identity, Marner and Tavares' future and Shanahan's failed vision

Episode Date: May 20, 2025

TSN Hockey Insider Chris Johnston joined OverDrive to discuss the Maple Leafs' series defeat to the Panthers, the lack of winning identity on the team, the potential changes to the roster and management, Auston Matthews' viewpoints on his injuries, Mitch Marner and John Tavares' future in Toronto, Brendan Shanahan's vision not leading to the grand win and more.

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thanks its presenting partners Sun Life and official partners Air Canada and MasterCard. Tickets at Cirque du Soleil dot com. Here's Chris Johnston, our Tia Sinhocke insider. CJ, you're around the team a lot, around the room, in the room, you're down there today. What you just heard from O, where do you stand on that and what might you add to that? Well, the good news about today is there was less talk about lessons learned. So it did feel different in that that regard You know, I thought there was some emotion after the game Tavares was emotional after the game but I think these guys are shell-shocked a little bit too and and You know, honestly, this is probably why we feel like we're on a repeat track. That's like this timeline

we end up talking about the same thing every year, but it feels like that's timeline we end up talking about the same thing every year but it feels like that's it's aiming a reason to want to see some change and I realize all the complications with that it's easy to throw it out as an idea right now and it's another thing to live it and make your team better but like I feel like these guys don't have all the answers all the time and and you know to play so well in game six I think that's the hardest part for me to get my mind around so handwaging those two losses with what you saw in game six, I think that's the hardest part for me to get my mind around. So, handma-jigging those two losses with what you saw in game six and how little they gave up and how structured they were and patient they were in the

game and then to get blown out the way they did. I mean, that's, it's difficult. I don't know what you want. I don't know what, I guess, oh, what do you want to hear in that point? Do you just want to hear someone angry? Like, what do you want to hear? I don't know if there's anything left to say when you lose 6-1 on home ice in game 7 and people are throwing jerseys on the ice and beers and everything and You know your years over. I don't know Nathan McKinnon one year said I haven't once Squat in nine years and it's got to change and it's got to get better Ultimately when you do get smoked like that, there's nothing that you can really CJ, but the way it comes off is it just didn't matter that much. Like William

Nylander came out today and he goes, nah, it was a crappy game, that's it. And like, how is a fan supposed to react to that? Like, I don't know. Like when you just toss out I was a crappy game. When the captain says we had too many passengers, does that mean it meant the world to them? Like did you you go down dying to win that game when your captain says there was too many passengers? Not everyone was on the same page. The other team was hungrier than us. The other team's been to two straight finals. Why were they hungrier? Those are the things that I'm talking about. Right. And that's where it feels like it's between years, honestly. Look, I think they need, if we're doing this again next year when it comes playoff time,

they need a team that can plan the inside of the ice more. More dogs, I guess seems to be the word that's going around these days. But they need maybe a little bit more of a fight in the sort of overall style of play obviously not every player in your lineup is built in that certain way I mean you want different elements in your lineup but you know I don't have any like I feel like I don't have answers for their lack of answers I guess is probably the best way to put it. And I don't believe they don't care though. I would draw a line there.

I'm not necessarily saying that's what you're getting at, but you're almost talking about the disconnect between what people feel and what the players feel. I think everyone feels a lot of disappointment around the Leafs, quite honestly, to sort of put themselves in position. I mean they know tons of respect obviously for the Florida Panthers they may win another cup this year but the Leafs I think they let them off the hook in that series myself. Well here's the thing. The way game three went and all that stuff you know. Well sorry to interrupt CJ but I just the one thing I disagree with and it's not with

you but it's what came out of them for them saying it's between the ears I disagree with that it's you just said well guys who are willing to to do whatever it takes I just don't like Mitch Marner wasn't gonna run anybody through the boards William Nylander wasn't going like to me they've got four players that play the same way and and all four of those guys don't have that that the nature that it You don't have the killer instinct like DNA. That's the big thing That's not a mental thing. No, I don't know where we got to find that killer instinct and we think our players have it We don't have to go out and find it well they don't yeah you know nine years now it's not a change that's my but my

point like i understand there's a met you know a mental block from showing up potentially and in big games i think that's what they're pointing to and i think that's what you're saying as cj but in the end you know i look at brad loose park battles i look at determination on fifty fifty battles I look at taking a chunk of your opponent. I didn't witness that from the top players. I witnessed, you know, they've

got skill, they've got lots of good things that they can bring to the table, but it was the surrounding cast that needed to do it because Florida had it. That third line took a piece of anybody that they could. You, I again, it's not Barkov and Reinhardt, but it certainly was Bennett. It was Marchand. It was Kachuk. It was, you know, right down the lineup where I'm looking at that Leafs lineup and it's like, okay, Max Stoemann, dumb penalty again. Well, you know, show me how much you care. It's a dumb penalty and Matthew Kachuk draws you into it. It's not about the show. It's about actually executing it.

And they didn't do it, and I don't think that's between the ears, I just don't think that particular group is capable of doing it when the chips are down. And that's, it was evident, games five and seven. Right, this is the ultimate what-if era of Leaps hockey, because I feel like you can do this, but I mean, even their lower down the lineup guys, like Scott Lawton and Steven Lorenz had breakaways in the first period. By no means am I hanging the loss on those players,

but you just wonder like, what if they, one of those ends up in the net or heaven forbid, even both of them, maybe like, it's a crazy game, this sport. And, you know, I, the least to me, they they just overdue for the change at the top of the roster and it's being brought to them this time around versus them initiating it, you know it seems, but you can only watch so many of these games go the same way and we have for years and years and years, it's hard to draw new conclusions from any of it

other than they got to change something up there What about all the way up at the top? What what is your read on brendan shanahan and what's going to happen with the leafs brass the rest of the week? well, obviously when you got a president 11 years in and and The customers are as angry as they are And the guy doesn't have a contract beyond the season, you know, it Doesn't line up very well for brendan shanahan. But you know, it's a big decision for Keith Pelley to make in terms of just what the structure is going to look like going forward. I mean, I don't know how it's going to go down just yet. And I think they're still working through that themselves. But, you know, clearly,

I don't think it would be a surprise if they decided to move in a different direction away from Shanahan. You know, I think what the Leafs need to get right in their front office is maybe doing some streamlining. You know, it's a big front office might be the biggest in the league in terms of just the sheer number of people that work there.

Some of it's a bit of a Frankenstein front office leftover with people from the Dubus era and obviously some additions that have happened since Brad Tree Living took over two years ago. So I think when the dust settles, whether it's a week or so or a couple days, I think you're going to see some people lose their jobs and ultimately try to get to the most functional version of the decision-making tree they can because no pun intended by calling it the tree but I mean that's that's where the change has to happen that's where the plan for this off

season happens that's where the what's next you know really goes down in terms of if this team can come back better and find a way to to get the job done next year with chris johnston what is your read on this Austin Matthews injury scenario where he will not for the second straight year will not reveal what happened,

you know, was somewhat taken aback by the idea that someone asked him why he won't reveal and he just pushed back immediately and said you know because I don't have to Why do you think he's going down this road? when so many players in the league kind of take it almost as like a An honor to reveal what they play through You know, I don't I don't know exactly what's going through his mind there I mean take two other examples today Chris Chris Tanna have missed some time in March He mentioned the very

very specific nature of his injury I'm not going to botch what it was but it's something to do with his sternum you know even Anthony Stolar just came out and said yeah I had a concussion in the first round you know Matthew Nye that should be noted didn't didn't want to get into what hampered him that the injury he suffered in game six so I guess there's a matter of personal preference there you know as for Matthews in the season, I, you know, I think if you're gonna second guess anything or if there's a lesson to be learned from it is he probably shouldn't have started the year playing after he

got injured in training camp. I think that's probably, you know, he was maybe pushing through at that point in time. He'd just been named captain, you know, didn't want to start that tenure, I guess He'd just been named captain, you know, didn't, didn't want to start that tenure. I get sitting out games, but you know, he, it was something that he fought all year long and I still don't know exactly what the injury is. So I don't want to act like I'm, I'm, I'm secretly hiding it here and trying to be evasive. I, I don't know the nature of it. I, I do think that at times though this season he felt very good,

including in March and into the playoffs and then you know if we saw him miss I think two times even just in that playoff run where he had to sit out skates in days where normally he'd be on the ice so you know obviously it's something he's got to dial in but when we don't have the full picture of what it might be it's hard to hard to get in on the details of what's going on there. Yeah. All right, so the elephant in the room is Marner and Tavares in particular. What's your read on how these two play out? It's Marner, John Tavares over the next six weeks.

You know, Tavares is probably the easier read. He's made it abundantly clear, really, every minute he's been a Maple Leaf that he doesn't want to play anywhere else. And every chance he's had even coming off the season he had in the regular season, I don't get the sense he's looking to use his leverage. I believe his side will work with the Leafs to find a deal that makes sense. And so, you know, and I believe the Leafs do have interest in keeping I'm assuming that number is is okay So, you know usually when you have two sides in that that mind frame hanging into a negotiation

It's probably gonna end up well. And so, you know, I think it does make sense to keep Tavares around. Why? Well, I'll tell you why because he's still a pretty good player and his cap hit is going to be cut in half or more so, you know, I think that that he's Transitioning to a different part of his career. He wants to be here and if he's willing to sign for you know something that That is, you know below market value or in that range Then why would you why would you move on for him if you walk come out the door? I mean the downside of this summer the upside is everybody in the league gets cap space or in that range then why would you why do you want for the people walk about the door i mean the downside of the summer the upside of everybody in the league at cap state the

downside is everyone's going to be bidding players numbers up i think i think you're gonna see contract explode with the next round of free agents i just don't like push back on that cj is his performance in the last three games where he barely touched the park and didn't make a play is it going to be that much more easy to take next year because he's making half the money? I think if you're reasonable about where he's playing in the lineup at that time, it is. I mean, he could be a third liner by that stage.

And I mean, where else are you going to get a center? Sam Bennett is the free agent. Like, what's he going to cost? I don't know man I all I know from from playing in the league is a guy that was the captain and who's been a superstar basically his whole career he just comes back into the line or in the locker room and he's still like a powerful personality in there and we talked about their their disposition and how they all are and they're similar

they've got to bring different personalities into that locker room end of story Yeah, well I would agree with that although I think what you're what you're saying about like transitioning would be like the speza Marlowe Jamie Jamie Ben yeah, but even yeah Ben I guess but Ben It's still working, but my point is like those guys went somewhere else to do that, right? You know, like if you're transitioning into I'm a veteran and I've done it all I've seen it all I think what O says rings true like John it doesn't matter what his cap hit is. He's still John Tavarez You know like he's still I don't know

He's still gonna be on wanting to be on the first power play unit and I want my cookies and I want this and I want I don't know yeah, it's tough It's this is what makes it complicated. I guess and I guess the we won't know until what CJ you're saying and What's the alternative who's if you're gonna spend what this called five million? I don't know what he would make Who's making five million to be your either third line center or you know your seven eight player that's really what we're talking about because who's out there that could play that role I mean it's mad to shame. Mad to shame is the only other obvious one but isn't he essentially Jon Tavares but maybe not even quite as good?

Well he might be a different player though I think that's what people are what we're talking about is just sometimes different is better because we we have a sample size and a large sample size of what they've had right now. So you're right Matt, Matt Duchenne is a different player. Now I would argue Duchenne's a better player in certain things than Tavares and others like Tavares is, I mean they're pretty damn close on draws both of them are elite elite you know centerman as far as draws but I think Dushane's a better skater than him right now yeah for sure yeah and so you know so just in the end CJ I think what they're saying is if you can

bring back somebody or bring in somebody who's different who might complement the team in a different way, that's what you might be looking to do, just because it's a different look. Well, I mean, I just think you need someone to score goals. I mean, he's got what, 30 goals each in the last three years anyway, Tomaras? I mean, yeah.

Who knows, I got this interesting, I thought this was gonna be the easy, I thought this was gonna be the easy call. I mean, the Marner one's a little different. Yeah, let's get to Marner here. Let's touch on, tell us, I guess from Marner's perspective, like do you think the door is completely closed? That he just doesn't want to be here anymore? Do you buy that he hasn't put time and thought into his future? The biggest question for me is can the Leafs do anything to crack

that door open? You know, that, that, I think it's mostly closed if not entirely closed. You know, I think certainly Mitch is of a mind that, you know, he waited this out. He played, look, some guys are afraid to play out a contract season because of things that can go wrong, their performance injuries, whatever. You know, he, he did take some risk in a sense by not signing an extension at his best ever regular season, 102 points as an NHL player. And, and so, you know, I think that he's, you know, of the mind that this could be a good time to look elsewhere, see what the markets out there for them, very

lucrative, all those things. So I think he has one foot out the door. What I don't know and what I think we'll be, we'll get clarity on in the coming weeks is whether anything can be said or done and whether, I mean, whether the Leafs even want to do that. I'm not even sure of that at this point, but can anything be said to make him want to stay? Does he have a second thought? Does the Duff set on the season? I mean have a second thought? Does the dust settle in the season?

I mean, that's that's the unknown for me. But as we sit here now, he you know, he didn't want to find an extension during the year The management approached him before the deadline about moving them and obviously didn't move on but you know none of this suggests that they're gonna sign an extension with this player and I think I think he's gonna Become you know one of the bigger phrase in the last five six years on July 1st and sign elsewhere that's that's where it's all pointing yeah well I mean listen that'll be as massive of a change as you can get outside of Matthews it will it will be and then it's what you do if he doesn't sign with that cap space to make your team better or different. That's the biggest thing. It may not make you better in

certain on the right wing area but it it's gonna make you different with that money that you are you gonna use. Yeah you got your goalies locked up, your defensemen locked up, right? Let's work with really rough numbers. If you remove the 11 million that each Tavares and Marner make this year, you're at 22 million. Let's say you pay Tavares six. That's maybe a bit high for OO, doesn't allow them there at all. Let's say you pay Nines seven just for fun. Yep. So you're at 13 million. So that still leaves nine million dollars to essentially use on a couple a couple players i think it's not awful you're not getting one player actually clear up top that replaces

mitch martin that's just not happening but maybe you can add two players that do other things that can play top nine anyway and then use that cap space to do it and i think that's what really what the leaps are probably can be faced with you know when when push comes to shove this summer

all right cd will get you out of here with their question of the day something to chew on brought to you by boston pizza canada's favorite sports for this playoff season boston pizzas planning the parade and as a new all-star play of menu for you to enjoy for pizza pints and puck drops is your local boston pizza today if this is the end of the Shanahan era was the Shanna plan a success or a failure you got to go failure I got to go failure lots of good things happen but that plan was designed to bring a Stanley Cup to Toronto and they didn't get closer than nine wins away so I still I don't see how that's

anything but a failure even though I will acknowledge is not saying every there's a lot of good times here the last 11 years too yeah but yeah the reason if they want a cop the Shana plan would reign on for much longer oh of course I mean it would be the most glorified plan in the history of the city but you're I mean that also puts it into perspective. Like we're talking about them needing nine more wins. Yeah, the win would have put them halfway there. And that's kind of what Marchand

was talking about the other day. And even he's like, this is the second round guys. Like you think this is pressure. Wait till you get to the cup final and you're playing game seven. But those guys were like, that's a different. It was kind of tongue in cheek going like, I'm having to talk about this. you're playing game seven. But those guys were, it was kind of tongue in cheek going like I'm having to talk about this.

Yeah like hey guys. Well that was something I noticed the other night and I tweeted that out. Like when the buzzer went, the Panthers, they reacted like they had just finished game 12 of the regular season. Like if you guys went over to buy, hey good job Bob. Like if it wasn't for the lunch,

they had to do the handshake, They would have just like we'll just yeah See you later like we're on our way to Carolina the birds birds starting to and you know, they packed for yes Of course, they packed for Carolina and but it was more because of the way the game they knew by the second intermission This game's over and certainly by halfway through the third. Yeah, and I know people said well, that's what winners do and I get it I appreciate that. But I was like, it's game seven and there was no, nothing. No celebrating, no screaming, nothing. It was just like, hey, hey Bob, good stuff, man. All right, let's go. Carolina, we're out of here. Crazy, man. Crazy. Yeah. All right. I think Matthew, he said something along the line today. We were

close to being close and that about sums it up. Right? I mean, they were almost there to being almost there. Yeah. I don't know, man. Which is still a long way away in the business of trying to win a Stanley Cup. Yep. That hasn't been touched on a lot. Like, second round. Yeah. That's it. Not even halfway there. That's the truth, man. It's getting going like these guys. There's another month to go. Yeah. A lot more games. All right CJ, good stuff pal. We'll do it again soon. Thank you for this. All right, talk to you soon. There's Chris Johnston. powerful stories, vibrant cultures, and unforgettable music. From inspiring

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