OverDrive - OverDrive - February 19, 2025 - Hour 3

Episode Date: February 20, 2025

Join Bryan Hayes, Jeff O'Neill and Jamie McLennan for Hour 3 on OverDrive! TSN Hockey Insider Darren Dreger joins to discuss the Canada and USA 4 Nations Face-Off Championship Game, Auston Matthews' performance in the tournament and the Blues being in the trade market. GriffsThePitch.com Columnist Richard Griffin joins to discuss Vladimir Guerrero Jr. failing to reach an extension with the Blue Jays, his value in the league the management perspective of the deal and Bryan hands out his FanDuel Best Bets.

Still thinking about Conestoga College? Come to our Spring Open House, Saturday March 1st. Search Conestoga Open House for campuses and start times. Spring Open House, Saturday March 1st. Discover career-focused education. Connect life and learning. Final hour, Overdrive continues powered by FanDuel, bringing you everything from the opening line

of the final score. We'll get to our best bets later in the hour. Darren Drager here in a few moments, Richard Griffin later in the hour Darren Drager here in a few moments Richard Griffin later in the hour on Vlad E and the Blue Jays and the PR element of all this and how blue J fans are feeling and you know in the end if you're a blue J fan, you just want your favorite players to stick around and Yes, it costs a lot of money, but there's no salary cap and you know you you always say it Oh, your house is worth whatever someone's going to pay

for it that's the reality of baseball man sure it's a lot of money you lose the player how do you explain that your fans i don't think there's an explanation for it i really don't what what he should be a blue jay for life okay but hey it's really it's gonna what what if it was your responsibility to get the deal done and he came up to you and said because I'm

pretty sure that Soto's contract affected his approach to this yes yeah totally because this guy might have been out like hey maybe it's 275 350 and then Soto got what 7 765 765 so he's got to be saying if Soto's got 765 why aren't I I'll take two hundred million dollars less Right, so give me 565 right and the J's were probably like no way, dude. Sorry that yeah, clearly They're not willing to do that like obviously and I understand and so I understand your comment

It's like Vlad E should be a J for life but what if he came to you and said give me 565. A guy where it's like he said two great seasons, his conditioning could be in question and he falls asleep at second base in the playoffs and who knows how committed he really is and I have doubts about him. Do you hand him over a check for $5.65? Okay, well if that's the case, and I think that's valid that they have doubts about him, have the stones to trade him. And trade him. Oh dude, no kidding, and not this year, last year.

And that's what I was getting to last hour about now the desperation, we're working hard to sign him, we did everything we could we offered them the largest Contract in Blue J history, which is a joke of a comment George bringer George Springer like they're they're down with the Pirates and the Rays in terms of the biggest contracts in sport in the sports history They they haven't signed anyone to a major contract none. It's Springer and like Vernon Wells and that's it I guess burrios is in there maybe gossman, but that's it. So That's that's what I'm saying. Oh, what it appears to me is they slow-rolled this Shapiro and Atkins and the owner slept on it because the owner said you guys run the team

Okay, yeah, you run the team you tell me what what you support what we should be doing here And they said well like them don't love on like on don't love on like on don't love on all he's gonna leave the fans hate us we better sign up and now they're now they're playing the role like wow what do you want us to do just had no five hundred million we tried everything we could know you didn't you try everything you could because he could have probably sign of a year or

two ago probably could give on the devils deal two years ago or a year ago And he would have signed it and then this would this would be all be this would be a moot point But they chose there's probably five different contracts over the time. He's been in the league that he would have signed Yes, maybe or and at the time it would have been exorbitant and you would have been wow 325 million for a first baseman who dude I'm telling you you could have had this guy for a hundred million over ten years. I'm telling you back in the day you could have. Anthopolis did that as we know it.

Anthopolis did that. But every player is different, every team is different. I get it. But at the end I just I think that I think this front office is going to just walk him into free agency and there's a very good chance he's going to leave and stay in the division. Could you trade him right now for like a, you know, somewhere like, I don't even know who a trade target would be.

You wouldn't get the equivalent of a Vladdy back. But I often wonder, is Vladdy a superstar or is he a star is he what is he in the metric of the league it's a good question I like him I might be wrong I'll bring it back to hug is he Phil Kessel like a really good players a hockey comparison you can really have I mean the sports it's so different I know so different but I'm just saying like Phil Kessel was the Leafs star. But in the level of the NHL, he wasn't a superstar, he was just a star player. Right.

Is Vladi... Vladi's better than Phil was. But again, he's been inconsistent. And is he Ohtani? No. Is he judged? No. And he's never going to get to those levels. He's not going to reach that. But he's 25. You've invested in him. You've swung for the fences with all these other guys. Missed. And now your own guy, you're like, we're going to stop here. And we're going to put up a blockade and not go past it. And that is very difficult to explain and again, I think

If he ends up leaving that the blue Jays will continue they were here before he showed up They'll be here long after he leaves right, but how could you possibly convince your fans? That you're ever gonna put you're gonna sign anyone of substance Like if you can't keep Vlad E like your own guy who you've got a head start on It's very difficult to explain that to me or I would think anybody at this point But maybe Richard Griffin has a different viewpoint will catch up with rich in about 25 minutes best bets later in the hour Here's Darren Drager at TSN hockey insider. What's happening drags? Hey guys, you know, I'm I'm in need of a tb prepare man

paid to have uh... will be jiffy jiffy i was a while ago i am still are not up there get on it jiffy at pro sports i think the colors off of my tb good you look at the pomegranate like this i don't know what's going on with this I do color fans or something not going on my TV college yeah same drags it is in the way this guy looks and we got the red like the TSM read everywhere too and I'm more red than the name drags we were talking about Vlad E yeah how do agents like you must hear hockey agents where like the team is so willing to pay free agents and then their own client comes up and they're like, I don't think so.

Like that must drive them nuts. It must, but you know, it depends on the individual you're talking about here, right? And again, we always circle around the maple leaves and obviously you've got Marner and you have Tavaris and I think it's different approaches from the agents and then that goes hand-in-hand with the players. Certain agents would rather get their deals done and then other agents would rather test the open market. What do you have to lose? You know you see what the money is and you go from there and I think that that

Is where the challenge comes in? Where does your athlete fit into that dynamic? Guys, I don't know you thought but I mean back in the day remember I'm like right for it right for arrow talks about this All the time he didn't he never wanted to go into free agency because he didn't like the insecurity of it All and the stress and all of that. Well, that has changed over the years and now we're approaching decades where players have the intestinal fortitude, right? All right, well, let's see what free agency looks like. I can always sign with the team or they hope that they can sign with the team that they're potentially leaving, but they're willing to wage it all to go down that sort of path.

And certain agents will talk to them about that, you've got security, you've got your family, you've got all of that. And I think it's a back and forth and it takes some pretty big gonads by that player to stand up and say, okay, here's what I'm doing. Either one way or the other, leaving money on the table potentially,

or going to free agency and then looking back behind you I'm doing either one way or the other leaving money on the table potentially or going to free agency and then looking back behind you and saying, okay, the door is now closed and I've got to go somewhere else. It is, it's a gamble from every different layer for the player. Like you're using again, if we're using Vladimir as the example, I'm sure that Jay's offered him a lot of money. He's turned it down. He might suck this year too. Well, he doesn't play well exactly.

You're probably not going to get that money and maybe he is just completely, he's way off on the market. That is possible. He thinks 500 million is waiting for him or whatever and he gets there and it's not. That's the song and dance, but you know drugs free agency is is a is hugely valuable to the players man because when they're when they're young it's team control this team control that rf a this arbitration that yes it's a it's one hell of a drug that free agency man the idea getting there and having

other teams call you wine and yeah I mean, and that's very enticing as well. It is, but it's obviously much easier when you're on a struggling team or a team that's a non-playoff team, you're having a heck of a year, you're in your free agent year, you're going into the open market and you can choose where you want to go. And obviously you're going to choose where the money is and if it's the perfect recipe, you've also got an opportunity to make the playoffs and potentially win. That doesn't happen very often in pre-agency.

If, you know, where all of those ingredients come together in the same recipe. Normally, when guys hit the pre-agent market, you're normally looking at mid-level guys or players who are approaching the latter stages of their careers, and yeah, they're looking for the best fit, but they're also looking for a longer term so that they're dealing in security. So it's never a perfect formula. It just isn't. And when you look at Toronto and you look at some of the coveted free agents that may Drop into the market this offseason. There's gonna be some real interesting conversations

Internally that we're probably not gonna know about we shouldn't know about Between the player their family their agent as to where they go not to now March 7th for for some players That's obvious if you're a pending unrestricted free agent your teams a non a non-playoff team. Well you're on the trade big board, that's where you're at. But if you're a playoff team, if you're a contending team and you're going into free agency and you like the look of your team but you're intrigued by the market, that's where it gets a little too precarious for me. So Drex, where are you at with this game tomorrow night? We all concluded we don't know if there's going to be fireworks to start the game, but

where do you think the level could get as far as intensity and it being as good a game or close to it at Saturday night? Well, we're going to have special moments in that game tomorrow night and and what they look like you know if if it's a karni david and then rush if it's sydney crosby doing something dramatic if it's the kachaks as i said the other night just indulging their kachak units uh... i mean that's that that's that's all part of it i mean it could be

it could be car helbuck's you know, standing on his head. It could be Bennington doing something that the entire country is hoping that he's capable of doing, yet he continues to face the criticism. I don't know. I can't imagine that we see the fireworks that we saw off the drop of the puck. Mike convinced that we're not going to see something similar at some point in the game. No, no, I'm not convinced of that because, you know, there's been enough time between Saturday to now,

guys are talking about it, you know, and not necessarily in a good-natured way. I wonder about the two days off as well. I like it from a rest perspective. I think, you know, aside from, you know, Brady can Chucknots skating and certain guys need a little bit more time they're gonna be wired for sound tomorrow night. They really are and how does that manifest? So does it does it you know evolve into the spirit of just a fierce competitive physical battle or we need to see

just a special special talent that is on display tomorrow night i i don't know i don't have an answer i certainly didn't expect we thought that it'd be made off the heart but i do know that we're going to see something special it could be one for the agency that's the whole for sure uh... it sets up that way and. In terms of the American team, where does Auston Matthews rank in terms of your anticipation or your projection as the guy that you would think would have that impact that will be the best player on the ice for

the Americans tomorrow night? Well raised high in terms of his capability of being that player. Whether or not he is, I mean, go through both lineups and anyone who's capable there being the hero. And then, of course, he'll elevate on star status. And again, Matthews will be near the top of the list. Whether he has that opportunity, whether it's there for him, we'll see. But I'm also like, I'm reminded of all the great games that we've seen historically internationally and you know, the teams that have been put to ice where top end guys are just put in roles, right? So if you can be a top level performer on your club team, captain as Austin Matthews is,

but you play a different role, whatever that role is, like it's, you know, being top end on face-offs and doing whatever he can do defensively to be as strong as he is, I know that's not what Leaf fans expect. They expect Austin Matthews to be and often to juggler not well if he isn't but somebody else is that he contributes to that about a fail i don't think it is i don't think it by i think that's a recognition of both teams and the town level that they're putting out there and how tight that game should be tomorrow night defensively should be

really really stop drags the fact that the u s bringing in Tage Thompson and I believe Brett Pesci, does that signal to you that there's gonna be guys that aren't playing tomorrow night? Well it puts it out there for sure but you know the one thing that I'd be critical of and it's somewhat unfounded and probably unfair and we talked about this in Montreal, the whole idea of the Four Nations Face-Off was basically fabricated by the NHL Employers Association. So they made their way through the restrictions and the rules and all that as they went on

prior to the start of the event. And then the event happened. And you obviously hope for best-case scenario, no matter what level of the event and then the event happened and you obviously hope for best case scenario no matter what level of the NHL you're involved with certainly as an owner, a manager, a coach or a player that injuries don't happen but all of a sudden it was like spontaneous combustion and the level of play we all knew that he was was going to be competitive did any one of us think it was going to be competitive as we saw Saturday night? I didn't. I mean I thought that you know these guys would play for their flag, you know, I mean you guys

step on the ice, that's what you do. So I think that if they could do it differently, they being the NHL and the Players Association they would have allowed for extra players. Like Quinn Hughes alluded to this yesterday after his practice with the Canucks, like a taxi squad. But then you put yourself, guys, in the world of Marty Walsh and the Players Association. Is it as simple as just putting a blanket open?

You know, okay, guys, we don't want to have to ask you to come to Montreal or Boston and just sit on the sidelines. But if you're willing, you know, sign up here. They didn't want to put those players in the position to have to make that decision. But here we are, right? Like here we are. You know, so it's it's Tade Thompson. It's all the turmoil that went around Team Canada prior to Saturday's game with Thomas Harley, you know, standing off the bench in the hallway between Team Canada's dressing room and the bench. And so it's easy to be critical now, but if they do it again and they won't because the

World Cup will take over, then the Olympics, then the World Cup every two years and all of that. I think they do it differently and there would be an expanded roster, a different timeline and when they have to finalize the roster. With Darren Drager at TSN Hockey Insider, in terms of the league starting back up,

I'm seeing that I guess Seth Jones of the Blackhawks has now gone on the record, saying he wouldn't mind a change. Yeah. What do you make of that? He's an intriguing player, Hazy, he's an intriguing player. of the black boxes now gone on the record city would like to change yeah uh... you know what do you think that taking player hazy isn't intriguing play you may get a lot of different number i see i right well you make about five million dollar defenseman chicago can chew on that that looks a lot of different right okay

yeah i don't know what it did what possible right now it's gonna heat up in the next few weeks obviously but I did a segment on this when I was in Winnipeg traveling out west like a month or so ago right and I threw it out there the possibility that Seth Jones could be in play. Okay well you're if you're the Chicago Blackhawks and you've got you know Seth is a good defenseman. I think he gets a pretty bad rap based on the contract, obviously, and the team that he's playing around. I don't begrudge him even a little bit for throwing it out there and saying, I want to be on a winning team and I want to win. That's stopping short of asking for a trade, but I do know that Pat Persona represents Seth Jones. I'm sure he's having conversations with Kyle

Davidson, the GM, and probably fielding some inquiries through Kyle and others as to what the possibility is. There are scenarios where I could 100% see Seth Jones traded between now and Mark Selma. I could. And that makes sense, I guess, from where Chicago's position is, unless you're kind of a guard and you're wondering, okay, where are we going here? But I can see it happening. Yeah, and then it opens the door to what the market is, you know, and how many, again, like Noodle said, oh, you jumped in, like, not at his price tag, so, you know, 9.5 million,

I think that's what he's getting paid, it's a lot of money's also a tribute to Zach Rwanski because Zach Rwanski you played with them that question of a player we talked about him that's very true he is so good and you put him on you put a big right-handed shot with Zach Rwanski all the sudden you're gonna be looking like oh what a you take Zach Rwanski away you get it you're a little bit more exposed. Yeah. Yeah. Well, exactly. If they're willing to chew on money, then how many teams...

I mean, you can come up with a number of teams that would want the player, but it's... Just ask them the question. Would the Leafs be sniffing around? I don't see how the Leafs would make sense. We can't have here... It's not even the Leafs. I'm thinking aloud on the fly here. I don't know what the market is

I think Edmonton would look at him. Yeah I think it needs a four like on that right side They need you know, John Klingberg is just a flyer Yeah, right like if you know, that's a free free free try but they're Edmonton I would argue is in the market for a top four try. But Edmonton, I would argue, is in the market for a top four defensemen to play on that right side. And you've got to go big game hunting if you think you can go deep into the playoffs. I don't know if Jones is big game, but he's a player. He's a good player. He is. And I can appreciate how he might fit. They've got Evan Bouchard coming up too, right? Like, so like there, that's way, way, way too much money.

For me, now it's all dependent on what's going out and how much Chicago is willing to retain. I can't envision a place where Toronto would have, they might have interest in the player, but there's no way of making that work. You know, the other kind of crazy rumors that are heard recently here is and again lots swirling around the St. Louis Blues right I mean Braden Shen his name has been out there since

we put it out there a couple of weeks ago and I wouldn't say there's much progress there but speaking of Team Canada what they're going up against every year and this year included every year in the last four or five years Pareto's name surfaces as a potential trade guy would be in year three of his eight-year deal but You know if you're st Louis and you're willing to have conversations on the possibility of trading your captain Who's what brave is 33 and I think Colton Perreco is 31, 32,

then all bets are off, right? And they're an equal cap hit at 6.5. You know, and I don't, you know, I'm not saying we measure the quality of player of Colton Perreco in what we're seeing here in the four Nations face-off. It's just weird that especially in a St. Louis, Perreco's name keeps surfacing year after year. So I think, I mean, if he were ever in play, of course there'd be teams that would be interested. I'm just doing a juxtaposed to Seth Jones. That's a way bigger contract. But if I'm a manager and I'm looking for a defenseman,

in this case, Perico, the right shot, man, okay, let's have that conversation. Yeah, big time. Well, we'll get to that soon, man. As of once tomorrow night hits, we're back playing the Chug Games on Saturday. We're a couple weeks away from the trade deadline. All right, Drex, we'll leave it there. Thank you for doing this. Hey, boys, have a good night.

Darren Dreger, TSN Hockey Insider. Again, tomorrow, I mean the epicenter of sports is in Boston as we await the championship game. And you know, like I asked about Matthews and, you know, we talk about McDavid and it's like this has got to be his moment and he needs to shine and he's the guy like Why is that not expected of Austin tomorrow night because? Just recency bias being at the tournament and following it. He's not been a main player for them Exactly like all you're talking about you're talking more about a guy like Jake Ensell being a difference-maker tomorrow night than Austin Matthews And I don't know if he's injured or how banged up he is

But he just hasn't inserted himself as a main player in the tournament and I don't know if that's because it hasn't gone his way he's not feeling up to snuff I don't know what it is but you're talking Matthew Kachuk you're going to Brady Kachuk you're almost going to Dylan Larkin like that that's what you're doing and that's just the way it's played out. Are you concerned about Hayes when you heard that he wasn't playing last game and then you heard Sullivan go, well, you know, guys are banged up and then they had to clarify or not sure on Matthews, like whether they're just holding him out.

Well, yeah, I mean, listen, he's there. He's going to play. I appreciate his attitude. He said today, like there's nothing you're nothing you can do to keep me out of this game. He's playing. So, you know, there's no going back on that the tournament is what it is. It's gonna be bedlam He's gonna get hit tomorrow night You know, he's not alone every team's got to deal with it

Yeah, there's there's three or four guys on each team like you're talking about Kyle Connor Austin Matthews for the states that are we're talking talking X-Factors, guys that haven't got on the board yet. Reinhardt, Mitch Marner, like five on five, he got that OT winner. Like there's some guys on Canada that, like there's X-Factors for both teams that could contribute and be like, that guy got on the board and have a legendary evening. Yeah, well you, exactly, you have the ability in that game to rewrite, no one everything was to remember the group stage

you know all the game tomorrow but that's what i'm getting to work with marter because the team is on he's not i could come up with five six seven probably eight players that are just is just factual like obviously mcdavid mckinnon cross be mccar bittington and that there's five right there you know are ahead of him in terms of who has to have impact. It doesn't mean Mitch can't be the best player or can't have an incredible game.

That's not the point. I'm saying going into the game, all things equal, everyone healthy. If you look at the whiteboard, you're like, all right, Martin is playing on the third line now. I don't know. We'll see how many minutes he plays. There's other guys who were expected to bring more Austin is supposed to be at the forefront for the Americans Yeah The captain the number one guy the best player best goal scorer in the world the face of this new generation

And I'm not disagree with your assessment But I would say there's a lot of pressure on him to snap out of that just hasn't been yeah Yeah, you got another game but if it's like wow that could chucks and this guy and you know, probably look at him and he's more important like that's That's not good. That's not that's not a good mojo to have like he's the captain of the team and the best player and He's not even is he in your top five in terms of the guy you expect to have a big impact on their team tomorrow night doesn't sound like he is if you're gonna go on by what you've seen no not right now he's not yeah but

he could easily be the best player on the ice tomorrow change that that's an opportunity to change it for sure it's got a big one just and and again it's like Saturday night I'm sure you guys talked about it It felt very game 70, you know game seven leafy vibes You know in terms of the way the game was played tight check course, of course low scoring Who's gonna who's gonna break through? Where did you watch the game? Were you did you do a swim up bar hockey watch you know, it's late. It's an hour ahead So they have they had it on at the bars. I was tracking it delayed I was taping the games late it's an hour ahead so they have they had on the bars i was tracking it delayed

uh... i was taping the games with our bell five back home and then being able to watch them after the completion so it was a circus but it was worth it because it was so much fun i got i can't tell you how many tax i got say are you watching are you watching like yeah i'm i'm can't believe there's been three fights in nine seconds Like and the reaction to the start of that game was unlike anything I've ever seen. Yeah, it was incredible

So yeah, it'll be fun to be be at home on the couch watching Setup shop tomorrow night. It's gonna be a blast. It's gonna be a great great great night great game And it's all of a sudden it means a lot more than I was anticipating, I think we all were. Well, and these guys, they've gotta draw some of the experience. Like Nylander, Marner, Matthews have to draw some experience from this tournament

and bring it back down the stretch. What are they gonna draw from it? They've been in the playoffs for seven years. What I'm saying, okay, so Mitch Marner's sitting there watching Sidney Crosby prepare and stand up at the most critical time. Like that's, if one of these leaves, there's going to be a winner tomorrow. Like that's the one. Yeah, someone's coming home victorious.

Somebody's coming home a winner from that. Either Austin Matthews or Mitch Marner is going to have a Four Nations faceoff whatever plate trove is a little bit all i think as a player you can watch and you can see somebody that guys the first guy on the ice every time that guy lives before practice uh... that guy finishes his check every night but watching a guy get it done under the gun i don't think you can take that and just take it back home and say i'm going to

do that now because i watched that guy do that. I really don't know. I don't think you can either. Like from that because you're you're born with that. That's right. Like you're a big game player or you're not or you're not. I mean that that's just the reality. All right. Richard Griffin coming up to the Blue Jays think Vladimir is a big game player. Is that why they've decided we're just not gonna meet your price? Can't wait to talk to Griff. We'll see what Griff has to say about all of this Overdrive continues TSN 1050 and on the TSN app. All right, best bets coming up later in the hour Everyone has shown up down in Dunedin. Everyone's ready to play ball and

the deadline came and went for Vlad E Guerrero jr And his ability to sign an extension with the Jays the best thing was the tone-deaf kind of and I mean you got to toss them out there, but the Let's play ball blue Jays tweets with the pictures of the guys and there's one of Vlad E It's like oh, and listen. He's a blue J Yeah, there is guess you go into the season expecting he'll play and then beyond that It feels very likely that he's gonna leave but

Maybe there's some sort of possibility here to salvage this whole thing. Maybe they have a great year. Vlad is a great year They all get paid Everyone sticks around and it's nothing but good times moving forward. let's see our next guest feels about that idea areas from griff's the pitch dot com our good friend richard griffin are you feeling optimistic about everything working out here for a lot of the blue jays over the next eight to twelve months what's up with uh... i i just want to know from haiti what did

five was in the dominican when you were down there with regard to black how a lot of laws they'll have a lot of other than there's a gap and got up to the kind of picture but it gets paid hundred percent supporting him down there to me most corporations most sports teams announced their bad news on a friday at five o'clock to nobody paid

attention the only thing is the only thing on the table this week was four nations face off and this is like streaking a croquet match. I mean, nobody has got anywhere else to look except this, this disaster that's happening within the Blue Jays organization and one of the major sports in the city and the country. Yeah, it's such a good point.

Like, I guess, Vladdy, he was the one that established this is the deadline yet it's day one all three parties come out what is the most horrible way to say it's just a horrible way to start why he starts then ross comes out and then mark comes out they won't not on bladdee said they they were close ross doesn't want to get into the word close

mark doesn't believe in the word close so there's you know a little bit of that going on but you're right in terms of a day one kind of vibe uh... i'm not have you seen anything like this like it's not the same as bautista with the stocks and his price in his value kiss me all those they was at a different place in his career and the team was in a different place

but how would you compare contrast this waddy scenario to anything else you see value, because Jose was at a different place in his career, and the team was at a different place. How would you compare and contrast this Vladdy scenario to anything else you've seen with the club in the past? Well, the bottom line is that they're not going to be able to sign Vlad Guerrero Jr. unless he becomes the third highest total value contract in baseball. Everyone's saying he's not the third best player, but circumstances, you guys know that, circumstances dictate what the market will bear at a certain point in time.

So I think what needs to happen for the Blue Jays and for Vlad is that they both save face and that the Blue Jays take liberal use of deferrals so that Vlad can boast about his total value in current dollars and the Jays can say, well, we didn't give in because we've got him behind Otani and Soto and we've got him ahead of Trout and Mookie Betts. And so both sides are winners.

Otherwise I don't see anything happening. And to me, that would not constitute when Vlad says I'm not gonna negotiate past the first day, but if the Jays go, okay, we'll give you what you're asking for, but a bunch of it has to be deferred, and we're hearing that deferrals are not in Vlad's vocabulary at this time, but if both sides want to win,

that's the only way to go about it. So Griff, in the day and age where a lot of superstar players with their own organization that drafted, developed, get paid, why did the Blue Jays, and regardless of what the money is, why did the Blue Jays decide not to pay Vlad this money? And that's a perfect point, O'Doug. I mean, like, they have 10 years behind them. It was July 2nd, 2015 when Vlad signed, so no other organization has that 10 years

plus the next 15, so 25 years of Vlad. You can average that down. You can logically say to yourself, well, we're only paying him 23 to 25 million over the 20 year. We're rewarding him for what he's done for us. There's no other organization that can say that. No other organization can say,

we're paying him for what he's done in the past. We're rewarding him. They're paying him for the future. And those are when you get in trouble with big dollar contracts like Anthony Rendon with the Angels and guys like that. But I think that the stumbling block here has been Mark Shapiro.

I don't think Shapiro is that high. He said at the end of the season, on November the 4th, and we weren't tweaked at that point. Maybe it was the sixth of November that he's not a generational player. What chief executive of the sports team says that about their own best player unless there should be some antenna going up and go uh-oh this is not a good sign for signing him long term and I believe that What needs to happen is for Ed Rogers and ownership to step up and go? Okay, Mark, you've had your fun. We need this guy You you forced us to build a big stadium a pleasure palace for 300 million dollars

And now you're telling us that our best player isn't going to be there for the next ten years like get over it this guy is our best player one of the best players in the game we signed and developed him let's go get him give him what he wants let's negotiate somehow and both sides will be winners and we'll be able to put people in that ballpark otherwise you'll be able to fire a cannon through it by August. So, Griff, what about the PR about all of this? I mean, just the way it was handled, the way the comments of, define close, this happening on day one,

has this not been a little bit of a recipe for disaster just based on, you know, how this is all unfolding and even the messaging? Absolutely. There's a ripple effect at three levels with the fans in the clubhouse and with ownership. And they held that press conference with those three guys right outside the doors of the clubhouse in Dunedin at the player development complex. So don't think that it didn't immediately go back and resonate throughout that clubhouse in Dunedin at the player development complex. So don't think that it didn't immediately go back

and resonate throughout that clubhouse with guys like Anthony Santander who believed, and I believe that's a great addition for this team, but for him to believe that he was gonna be playing his five years and beyond with Vlad, and then Bo thinking, if Vlad can't sign, what hope is there for me? I'm gone. Just the ripple effect through that clubhouse in terms of the question of PR, I think it was brutal. I think it was horrible. And they need to rectify that before

opening day because if Vlad has a great year, he's gone because there will be bidders out there. If he has a bad year, then the J's are gonna go, well, maybe our offer was a little too much because it has three out of four bad years for Vlad. And that's the risk he's taking. But in terms of Ross Atkins saying, define close. Just tells me that I don't want to be playing horseshoes

or hand grenades with Ross. Yeah, exactly. What do you think is more likely to happen? Vladdy goes in place somewhere else, and people look back and say, and he's fantastic, and he's one of the best players in the game, and people are gonna look back at the J's front office and say, what a bunch of dummies.

Or is he gonna go somewhere else and kind of stumble a little bit and then everyone's gonna say, thank God they didn't give him that money? Out of those two scenarios, what would you say would be more likely? Well, I think despite the fact that, you know, he looks like everyone's uncle in terms of

body, I think he plays every day. He plays 150 to 160 games. He's going to play every day for somebody. I think he's figuring it out. I mean, when you look at the fact that he's the second youngest player on the 26 man Jay's roster projected heading into opening day and all that he's accomplished at age 25 and then everybody's going gaga over David Schneider and Alejandro Kirk and those guys that are older than Vlad. I think that it's a big mistake.

My personal belief and you guys know that I'm like Pollyanna at times. I think that they will find a way at some point and it won't be if he makes it through the season and goes into the offseason he's gone. But if something happens and when he said I'm not shutting the door I think that was a key for them to not jump on, but to be optimistic about if they can be creative in terms of putting together a contract that makes both sides happy. Do you truly believe that he wants to be a Blue Jay for life?

I spent four years with the JSPR department and that includes his rookie year in 2019 when he first came down the hall wearing his dad's jersey on the first day that he was in the major leagues. And I have seen him, yes, I think he wants to be here, he's comfortable here, he's got a huge comfort level which if they can be creative and sort of appeal to his like I'm not a loser, we're not a loser side, I think they can get it done but I do believe in answering the question that he does want to be here. Griff, you talked about shooting a cannon through the Rogers Center and the fans being pissed and nobody showing up.

What is it going to be like for that management team? If they come back from Dunedin, they are going to be so mad with them. You just mentioned you were in the PR. What's it going to be like for them coming back into that building and everyone hating their guts? Yeah, I think they'll be very defensive. I think we'll have, I mean there's fewer availabilities for the GM and president than any front office I've seen.

I think that already Ross looked disheveled and unhappy when he gave his press briefing. It's going to get nothing but worse. And I wouldn't be surprised, especially here's a bold take that if Ed Rogers steps in like Steve Cohen and takes control and says, we got to sign this guy, I think that both the president and GM might be gone by the start of the 2026 season. Yeah. Well with Richard Griffin that would that's what I'm wondering here because Edward Rock like Cohen has changed the game in many ways and you look at the Soto negotiation it was just pay him whatever you have to pay him to win and You know the Pete Alonso stuff. No one was asking what the GM thinks nobody

Yeah, like no one I know one was wondering how the GM feels It was go ask Steve Cohen and he'll tell you what's happening and what's going to happen When I was with when I was in the expo's when I was in the expo's and Charles Brougham was the individual owner He had a little bit of a Steve Cohenos, Charles Bronfman was the individual owner. He had a little bit of a Steve Cohen vibe to him in that he was the owner. He made some key decisions. He left a lot of stuff up to his front office. But the reason that Charles Bronfman in 1989 left the game is because ownership was going

too corporate. So all his friends in the business, all his other owner friends were no longer there and he left. And Steve Cohen might be swinging it back in that direction, but right now he's a lone ranger in that regard, really. And the Jays need to have someone step up from their front office and say, this is enough. You made us build a brand new stadium within the stadium and now you don't wanna have a you don't want to allow us to fill it because of your ego on this

that's what it feels like and uh... listen like you said maybe there's hope that they can rectify all this and you know you find a way to get and a paper and body sticks around and he's a jay for life uh... but they're there there just can't be any loser in this negotiation and that's the only way i'll get done it if he becomes the third highest paid player total value in major league history and the blue jays are able to manipulate the deferral so that it sort of

they can boast that it's down in the low fours you know I mean that's the only way I see it getting done. All right Griff we'll leave it there what a way to start spring training we'll see what happens the rest of the way. Thank you for doing this. I love hearing your guys views on this every day so keep it up boys. I appreciate it thank you. There he is Richard Griffin our good friend from griffithepitch.com and yeah listen that listen ego ego is one thing that doesn't I appreciate it. Thank you. There he is Richard Griffin our good friend from grips the pitch calm and Yeah, listen that listen ego ego is one thing that doesn't come up enough when kind of we're talking about this stuff Egos in play on both sides Right and and Mark Shapiro is the guy that's running the show and that's why when I we asked we talked about it earlier

Like Mark's future here I get the impression that ever Rogers has full trust and faith in him and just you you figure it out you do it You're the man. Thank you. Just hold Vladimir. We're not doing that deal So Edward Rogers would have to be included in that decision exactly like obviously the owner was was Involved heavily and he clearly didn't overrule him and say actually that's not going to happen because in the end ship our he's got a lot of power he doesn't have full autonomy the owner is the guy who can make the final decision and if he really wants what he he can

find a way to sign up yeah if you've had the owners got to decide how much uh... you know how much of an appetite he has for looking at a team? I? Don't know if laddie walks Nobody's hitting nobody's in the ballpark and there's no excitement and there's no reason to go down there That is that's how I see it. Oh, like there's two options you keep going you spend you keep your talent And you hope that you're retooling it works or you have to blow it up. That's it Yeah, there's there's you can't be like now we're gonna penny pinch here and now but then we'll sign this guy who's okay

And no, well, it's one or the other you have it is it is a fascinating question Do you want to keep retooling around Bo Bichette and Vladimir Guerrero? Or do you want to just say we don't want to take our chances with those two guys and we do well We'll take the chance with them. they're forcing us to blow it up well yeah that's that'll be their argument that the players played themselves into the situation or got greedy or yeah whatever uh... but the owner could change that one phone call goes make that happen sign

totally and listen if you go the other way if you do move on from these guys and that seems likely at this point are or a very significant possibility of that happening, the other road, it's a long, tough, grinding road. You got to reload and retool and it's not going to be fun. But it's not fun right now. They didn't win last year.

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Yeah, it's great to have you back. Yeah, it's great to be back. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. Did you do any, did you have one shift at the swim up bar? Yeah, well, the thing is we were down at a kid's resorts so it was the it was not the most relaxing it was already atmosphere by nine o'clock so parents weren't getting gondola dot even close

like you know there's drinks everyone's having a good time but it's this pool were going over those you know the slides and the reward out of the beach and then you know it was one of those everyone's asleep by nine o'clock but i don't know what you're out yes it's the whole book of this stuff and and and by seven thirty people are flying around it was great that we had a good time great weather could be back to always the best when you land back home and

everyone safe and sound so it's good to be back in appreciate all the help today thanks to everyone behind the scenes for helping out as always everyone for tuning in TV radio podcast web. We appreciate all of that. We're out of here. Enjoy your evenings. Enjoy the games tonight. We're back tomorrow at going to have a Brad Fax and Nehru special at 4pm.

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