OverDrive - OverDrive - July 21, 2025 - Hour 2

Episode Date: July 21, 2025

Join Bryan Hayes, Jason Strudwick and Jonas Siegel for Hour 2 on OverDrive! ESPN MLB Analyst Tim Kurkjian joins to discuss the Blue Jays' impressive winning foundation, the approach to the trade deadline and Aaron Judge's legendary status. The guys debate the list of the top NHL players in the history of the league, Connor McDavid's ranking and the importance of winning a Stanley Cup to solidify a spot.

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Jonah Siegel Jason Strudwick Tim Kirch and a VS band in a few moments Jay's Yankees Tonight down at the Ryder Center another beautiful day in Toronto. Don will be open Man or a lot of people in the seats over the weekend as you would expect and you get a sweep you're leading the American League East You're in a good spot a lot of buzz buzz, man. The seats the next three nights will be packed. It's gonna be great. Jay's Yankees. Can't beat it starting tonight. Getting close to the trade deadline. We've got, again, it kind of sucks. Like all the majors are done in golf. There's got to be a major in August, I think. They used to have the PGA in August. They moved it to May. major in august i think they used to have the p g a in august they moved it to may

just don't like the idea of kinda all the big tournaments are already done i was actually talking about with my cousin today and i think that you get a little bit of fatigue as you get into it because you start getting into august you know baseball is heating up, we got football coming in, hockey's starting to get going. So I kind of like it's done at this point.

And then you just kind of move on with the next sport, even though it's a bit unfair to the PGA, probably Jonas. I have a not like, as a non-golf fan, I have a question for you guys. How do you do it on like a Sunday or a Saturday, like when the weather's nice outside, I only want to be outside. What do you do it on like a Sunday or a Saturday like when the weather is nice outside I only want to be outside What do you do? Like do you watch outside? I think it's all about knowing when the leaders are gonna go out like this is the thing like golf

If you're not golfing you might look at it. So wait, just watch golf all day. No I don't care about the guy who just made the cut who tees off at 930 I'm not watching him, but the leaders go out at like 3 o'clock. Now the open's different obviously because you know the time change. You know Scotty I think teed off at like 930 yesterday. But like you get you get to the US Open the leaders tee off at like 3 o'clock. So you have all day and if you just want to catch them even on the back nine just be inside by 5, 5, 30, 6 o'clock, you're going to watch all the action. So ultimately that's what it comes down to.

Like you got to be a real freak of nature to be watching everything in a golf tournament. Like if you're not employed by some company to do that, you got to be crazy to be watching like 12 hours of golf four days a week. Yeah, it's... In a way, kids have to be very understanding. You're taken like that. You really... Because it's a long, long time to watch. Generally speaking, I check in the scores Thursday and Friday, try to watch a little bit.

Then as you work towards Sunday on the majors, I'll watch it. Exactly. If it's not close, I'm like, okay, I watched a little bit earlier, I move on. But if you're like, yesterday I was able to watch it all because the time changed. And I had some family in town, so we were kind of watching it all together. But it's a little bit harder when it's regular time. But it's fun. The majors are fun.

They're so much fun. It's fun to watch it. The courses are part of it, the histories is part of it. The history is a part of it. You know, and like that's where like I think tennis gets hit personally, especially on the men's side. Where like, what's the point of watching Sinners first batch? What's the point? Yeah. Like you talk about it being routine and that was the same thing like with Djokovic and Nadal and Federer. Why watch them in the first round? Like why watch Federer in the first round of Wimbledon back in 2010? What's the point? It's just it's probably straight sets and you're never gonna hear from that guy again

But as it gets deeper into the tournament and we're seeing that with the current men's game Like if sinner and Alcaraz are gonna meet you have to see that like you have to watch it And I think with Shaffer's dominance, it's more like I got to see it on the weekend I got to see it on Sunday to see how he closes And it speaks to his greatness But again up here, you know, it's it's all J's all the time Like when they sweep the Giants coming out of the All-Star break, they've won 15 of the last 20 I think they've won 10 in a row at home

They're turning over the roster Consistently, you know, they got Vlady hitting third, Bichette hitting clean up now. They got different lead off hitters seemingly every day. And nothing can stop them. They're as hot as anybody in baseball right now. And we're chugging towards the trade deadline. And to chat about it, we're joined now by ESPN,

insider analyst, he does it all. Joining us here on the Maple Torta Hotline, here's Tim Kirch and how you doing Tim? I'm well fellas, how you doing doing? Oh we're doing very well we're enjoying baseball again it's funny how that can change over the course of a year where this time last year it obviously wasn't going so well for the jays and this year it hasn't

you know we've had a difficult time really putting our finger on it because you look at the lineup you know santander's not playing him in as isn't been playing and isn't really doing anything hoppins numbers have a big great is pitching but he hasn't been great it's effectively that internal improvement that ross ackens took so much heat for a year and a half ago that commentary that has finally arrived

what do you make of the jays being as red hot as they are well it's pretty darn impressive what they're doing now. It's not just, you know, 15 out of 27 out of 10. I think they've gone 33 and 14. That's a pretty good chunk of the season. And you look at their roster, and you look at the way they're doing it,

and it's not entirely clear how they're doing this, which is a really good sign. If it were obvious, look at this starting pitching. It's unstoppable. Or this bullpen, which has been very good by the way, has been unbelievable. Or look how many home runs they hit. The only thing you can point to is that they don't strike out very much. They strike out fewer times than anybody else. And maybe the ball's in play, maybe the tough at bat they take are leading to something good. But where they are right now is a pretty strong position in a winnable division. So I am thoroughly impressed with the way that the Blue Jays have played now for almost 50 games. That's

a third of the season nearly and that's impressive. Tim, if you go back to the way the season ended last year, a lot of the off-season conversations about what could happen if this season goes off the rails for the upper management, the president, those types of positions. So, there are where they are now. How much has this surge this year changed the future in those two positions moving forward? Well, I think it shows that maybe we were a little premature saying, we've got to make some moves here. I know I did a couple of network shows early on in the season and said, well, you've got

to fire the manager, don't you? And I said, I don't think that's the right thing to do right now. I'm wrong a lot. We are all wrong a lot in baseball, but as it turned out, we are right in keeping John Schneider as the manager and Ross Atkins because right now, they're in first place by three games in the American League East.

So this is why you can't ever give up on baseball. The Nationals in 2019 were 19 and 31, and they went on to win the World Series. Last year the Tigers were an afterthought until the middle of August when they won a game in Williamsport on Sunday night beating the Yankees in the ninth inning and that's when they turned. So there's no telling with this beautiful game of baseball when the lights going to go on and maybe maybe the light has gone on for the Blue Jays and what they also have working for them is that you know the Red Sox aren't great

the Yankees aren't great the Rays aren't great and the Orioles are stumbling so it's a winnable division and they're playing better than anyone in the division right now. Yeah they sure are and again you look at the lineup you know Ernie Clement is is gonna lead off tonight him as planned second but obviously not bring in really anything offensively miles straws planned center field or profiteos out right you know it's just it's kinda wild like if you look at this roster last year and they're on pace for seventy six wins and now this year

they're on pace for you know mid nineties uh... and it it's pretty incredible and And you mentioned a couple of the more recent teams, like in 19 with the Nationals and last year with the Tigers. In 15, the Jays were famously 50 and 51, and they put their chips in the middle and went out and got Tula Witsky. They went out and got Price.

And they were the hottest team in the league the rest of the way and made it all the way to the ALCS in back-to-back years. So with that in mind, this current roster is clearly in a much better position. What would your projection be? I'm sure you've been asked a lot. What is your projection on what the Jays do between now and the trade deadline? Well, we're going to be in there with so many other teams looking for another hitter

and another pitcher. I think everyone needs to look towards the Diamondbacks right now because they have probably the best hitter available. Eugenio Suarez, he's got 35 homers and consecutive games with multi-homers. And he's a slightly above average defensive third baseman. He didn't used to be, but he is now he's a team leader and defensive third baseman. He didn't used to be, but he is now. He's a team leader and a clubhouse force.

So he would be perfect for the Blue Jays, but he would be perfect for every other team that needs a hitter, Yankees, Mets, Cubs, and things like that. Also, they have a couple of pitchers for the Diamondbacks that could help any team. Merrill Kelly, free agent at the end of the year. So I think we really got to keep our eyes on the Diamondbacks first as to

what they're going to do. My guess is from what I'm told they're going to sell, question is to whom are they going to sell and are the Blue Jays going to be you know right in the middle of this. My guess is they won't be because the teams that need players usually have more resources and more money to deal with than the Blue Jays do that is the meth and the Yankees so it's going to be tough to get exactly what they want but I wouldn't mess too much with the way the team is playing right now. Well Tim that kind of gets at one of the issues with the deadline this year is there's just not a lot out there that seems like it's

like readily available how do you or how do front offices usually confront a problem like that when like the starting pitching is like you mentioned Merrill Kelly like Zach Allen like those guys might not be upgrades on Gosman on Bureaus like how do you handle that if you're a front office when what's out there is like kind of okay and like maybe better but maybe not like you just do nothing do you go to a different need like how do you think that they handle a situation like that this year especially yeah well this is why I've heard from more than one person over the years general managers earn all their money right now are we in it or are we out of

it are we loose are we sellers or are we buyers are Are we in it or are we out of it? Are we sellers or are we buyers? Are we going for it or are we gonna sit pat here? And those decisions can affect an organization depending on the organization for years to come. So these are the difficult questions that have to be answered. Is Zach Galin really an upgrade? Is he your fourth starter when you get him?

Are there three starters better than him on the Blue Jays right now? Because if he's going to be your fourth starter, you can't give up a significant amount to get him. Now if you say, all right, he's our number two starter, he's that good, maybe that's a different story. But this is where you have to value players and assign value and say this guy can really help us here. And I agree, I just don't see a tremendous market out there for starting pitchers who can make a difference and hitters who can make a difference. Now there are going to be relief pitchers everywhere, someone like Griffin Jackson of the of the twins might move might move and he could really help some teams

you know kyle finnegan of the national likely will be available if he could help some teams this is where both teams add to their team it at the trade deadline is what with relievers could you win a great deal in the postseason with a deep personal bullpen. With Tim Kirch and VSPN, I think that's most likely because you look at the three pack of Borreos, Gosman and Bassett, they're always healthy, knock on wood.

They're good pitchers. None of them are going to be up for a Cy Young right now, but they're good players, capable pitchers, they're putting up decent numbers. That's the question. Can you find anyone that's better than any of the individuals or the collective three? I'm not sure they can or if they're willing to pay for whoever that is or if they have the assets to get them. I think the conundrum or at least I'm sure what they're contemplating right now, Tim,

and I'm curious where you stand on this is are you building? For playoff success or if you're the Jays are you still building to win the division or maybe finishing? You know that one of the top two seeds in the American League and avoid the wild card Altogether because that's where like Eric Lauer and Max Scherzer their wild cards Well ours been really good for them Is it gonna keep up like if you fall into a wild card spot cuz Lauer falls Max Scherzer, they're wild cards. Lauer's been really good for them. Is it gonna keep up? Like if you fall into a wild card spot because Lauer falls off in September, you'll kick yourself.

If Scherzer gets hurt next week, or three weeks from now, you're gonna kick yourself. What do you think is more, what do you think the goal post is, I guess is what I'm getting to? Do you think it's still regular season success, winning the division, or do you think you use the next week and a half,

two weeks to build a World Series caliber team which may be a different conversation? Yeah it is a different conversation especially when you consider the power that is in the National League and I think the Tigers are just better right now than the Blue Jays are. Now Tigers just lost six games in a row, so in this crazy season where there are very, very few exemplary teams, the Jays have to look at it two different ways. Can we win the World Series with this team? If they think they can, then they got to go out and make it a World Series team at the trade deadline. But the first thing they have to do is try to win the division. Because this whole thing rests over Russ. You do is try to win the division because this

whole thing rests over Russ. You do not want to play in one of those two out of three wild card series. They are just so difficult to win and then to overcome and be ready for the next round. So I would think they would do everything it takes within reason to win the American League East and get a East and likely get a buy to start the postseason. Tim, when you look at this team, what they have as far as youth on the team, maybe in the system, and the mindset of the managers. You mentioned you have to go all in, but how much do you dip your toe into your talent

pool of young players to sacrifice some of the future. Thinking this team with Vadi and these types of guys under contract could be a good team for a few years here. Yeah, again, this is why this is so difficult for GM is making these decisions. Do we take one of our prized kids to go get somebody who's going to be our third or fourth or maybe worse starting pitcher. Do we get another bat but he's not necessarily an impact bat? I repeat, I don't see too many impact bats out there. So this is where you have to gauge it. It's going to be a little easier on the Blue Jays because they're playing so

well right now. If they were in trouble and they're just trying to make the playoffs and then don't do anything, that's going to be hard to justify. But being three games ahead and winning 33 out of the last 47 games, they have a little bit of a cushion to look at the guys in the clubhouse and say, you guys are really good, we don't need much help here. It's when you're struggling and the guys in the clubhouse look at you and go are you going to do something that's when the pressures really on I don't sense that pressure right now on the Blue Jays with Tim Kirchner of ESPN Bo Bichette is you know a pending free agent now Vladdy's

future has been secured we know he's getting paid and he's gonna be a Blue J for a long time what is your best guess on the shuttle play next year toronto or the field uh... that's a great question but he's played pretty darn well lately fellows as you know he's here what to eighties to eighty something he's got twelve homers not been fifty five run

way above average shortstop in the major leagues. He's been with you the whole time. He's a hit machine when he's really swinging it well. He's had seasons where he's finished unbelievably strong. He comes from great stock, given who his dad was and the whole gene pool. I, I would build around him and, and Vlad, you've already built around one. I would tell Bo Bechet, you're part of this team moving forward. It's hard to find an everyday shortstop

who can hit like he can hit. And even though he's not a great defensive shortstop, he can play the position still. And it's hard to find a shortstop that can play as long as he has these days. So I would lock him up. It's not my money, but I think they have enough money in the organization to say,

if we're gonna lock up a second guy long-term, it should be him. Well, Tim, you mentioned off the top how big a stretch this is for this team playing well. How seriously, though, do you take them as a World Series contender? Like, you mentioned you don't think they're better than Detroit,

but are they second, third, fourth in the AL for you and where do you actually see their potential? Well, I think you could make a case at the moment that they're the second best team in the American League. However, as we've said, things have changed in this league, in both leagues, but especially the American League, so quickly. The Astros were so hot and now suddenly they're not. The Mariners were so average and now suddenly they're hot. Everyone in the American League East has gone up and down except for the Orioles who have just been down the whole year. So it's just another reminder, there are no great

teams in the American League. And this year, the National League, there are no great teams in the American League and This year the National League there are fewer really good teams than I thought there would be But if you're going to try to win the World Series you have to be honest and say right now the Tigers are better right now the Phillies and the Brewers and The Cubs and the Dodgers are better and that's that's five or six teams right there now That doesn't mean it can't change because in this crazy game things change from day to day. But if you're gonna be honest and say can we win the World Series? I think they have to go out and make a major move and I just don't know how many major moves are out there.

With Tim Kirkjohn and you're right about it changing quickly. I mean two weeks ago the Yankees came through town for a four game series. The Jays were mean, two weeks ago, the Yankees came through town for a four game series. The Jays were three games back of them and the Yankees left town and the Jays were a game up on them after a four game sweep. And now you got the Yankees back in town tonight. They just took two or three down in Atlanta.

And you know, the evergreen topic awaits us. We've got Gosman on the mound tonight, Scherzer on the mound tomorrow, Bassett on the mound on Wednesday. And Aaron Judge is obviously putting forth a season that very few players have ever put forth in the history of the game. The stats are just absolutely insane. And we ask it every time they play the Yankees, how much should you pitch to Judge?

How often should you give him something to look at or something to swing at? Where do you stand on that topic, especially considering the significance of this series? Now late July, Jay's in the lead, a real chance to take a stranglehold on the American League East. What do you believe John Schneider's approach should be to Aaron Judge? Well, you've got to be really, really careful with him because it's proven this year that the Yankees line up It as a total can be pitched to remember they got shut out three games in a row this year No, Yankee team has ever been shut out four games in a row. They scored in a six game span

They scored seven runs that ties the worst seven game stretch of any team in the history of the Yankees. So you can pitch to them when Judge either isn't swinging well or he's not being allowed to swing at anything good and he doesn't chase out of the strike zone very often anymore which is the biggest change and has turned him from a big slugger into a great hitter uh... so i would be exceptionally careful with him but that's just me we don't we don't get around people like we used to and sometimes that's that's a mistake and in

yankees case uh... he's so dangerous right now what why would you pitch them if there's any alternative well we were having this debate uh... last week uh... about what judge possibly could accomplish and uh... our colleague former colleague while your current colleagues steve phillips had mentioned us that uh... he thinks

judge could be cruising towards being the greatest yankee of all time a greatest yankee hitter which caught my eye or I went back at him So that's interesting babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig and mantle and all these incredible Demagio Where do you stand on this like if he ends up, you know winning the Triple Crown this year, which is very possible You know, he cruises towards 55 60 home runs again Like what kind of season could this do or could this be in terms of judge in his resume uh... as an all-time yank and i guess it's just an all-time offensive season

yeah well he does what you're saying and he had sixty homers and when triple crown went another and the p then what we have to start considering something here but uh... and he's the best hitter in the game he is MVP then we have to start considering some things here, but and He's the best hitter in the game. He is so dangerous, but he's not Babe Ruth because Babe Ruth did this for a long time All right, he's he's not even halfway to Babe Ruth's home run total however he got to 350 homers in fewer games than any player in Major League history and He's not Lou Gehrig because Lou Gehrig did things that some players will never do.

I mean really no one's ever done when it comes to driving and runs per game, things like that. So I'm going to pump the brakes on Ruth, Gehrig, and right now Mano DiMaggio and even Yogi Berra. But we are really rolling towards something exceptional here with erin judge because of what he's done the last five years this has been in a meeting amazing five-year run and it's far far from over so yet to check back in five more years and get it what we're gonna put him in there

with group and gary yes i have a very simple review but it is incredible what he's doing that it is amazing like he is must see tv right now and he's in town the eighties are in town for three but jay's are in the driver's seat which is uh... pretty incredible even where consider they were two weeks ago uh... he is to encourage in a vsp a great catchin up with the ten we really appreciate you doing this okay fellas cip

ten correction joining us in the maple to Toyota hotline drive the built-in Canada fuel-efficient fun to drive Toyota RAV4 gas or hybrid models available visit mapletoyota.com. Yeah listen I'm not a Yankee historian by any stretch but Babe Ruth is a different beast man. Well his numbers and the aura that he came with. And Hayes how much does I mean? It's relevant here. We talk about all the time. How much does the postseason matter for that? I think it has to with a place like that 200 hitter in the yes season. You're right. He's he's not He's not a good player performer

Like he's not and you know, they were in the World Series last year and maybe if his bat is lively I don't know. I felt like the Dodgers the way Freddie Freeman was playing but look what Freeman did in the World Series last year What do you have five home runs or yes every night? It was just game after game after game and if like judge did that then that explodes, you know the the the whole story and the opportunity for him to creep into a different level and Again, I don't know I mean you'd have to talk to Yankee fans and Yankee historians in terms of that the numbers and all that I don't have that kind of stuff clearly nor do I care enough about the Yankees but you know Ruth, Garrag, DiMaggio, Mantle

he said Yogi Berra, Jeter, you know Jeter was a different player but I can't imagine Judge can even start the conversation in New York until he wins a World Series, like a minimum one World Series. Well, what you know, if he was a part of you know 80% of the other teams or part of he'd be you know, they'd be building statues about this guy. Right. You go to Yankees where arguably the greatest players or some of the greatest players ever played together or there and it's challenged because you're always going to be fighting those ghosts and you're always going to be

compared to them but obviously Aaron isn't intimidated by that. But I think that longevity does. When you're talking about the greatest of the great and we touched on a little bit earlier with the golfers, it's longevity. Longevity matters and winning matters because we're talking about the best. That's why all these guys, the top players in every sport want championships whether it's golf, basketball, hockey, foot, you've got to have that championship ring.

Or trophy, or whatever you want to call it, guys. And so there's still some work to do, but the fastest ever to, was it 320 home runs, or whatever it was, 350. 350, yeah. That's insane. I didn't know he was on pace for that. I saw that, I was like, wow.

But he's older, right? But I think it would be different. Yeah, he showed up at 25. I think it was on pace for that. I saw that I was like wow, but he's older, right? I think it would be just it all showed up to 25 I think it would be different for that though If if he had done all this stuff in the regular regular season and he also was like that say they didn't win in the playoffs But he was good like look at David like McDavid has been unbelievable in the playoffs So you can't like you can't say anything. He hasn't won yet, but he like he's been he's done his part Judge you can't look at him be like yeah, he's been great. It's like actually no Right and you know, ultimately the guys that proceed the judges and the Mcdavids like their careers are done and not and you have that

Barometer, you know, like you don't have to match it directly cup for cup or whatever World Series for World Series Like Gretzky doesn't have the most Stanley Cups ever. No, like he doesn't he doesn't have that but force pretty good for Playing it I'm just saying like, you know, there are silver medal in the Spangler Cup Four is pretty respectable very respectable, you know, it's interesting with Gretzky though that like you look at And again, I think it speaks to the Times But with the modern sports media and what we debate what we talk about the fact that he never won when he left Edmonton is Interesting how that doesn't hang over him Wow, like I know he made it to the cup final in 93

But you know what I'm saying like sports now It's like if you leave like you better win somewhere else if you're gonna go so that was why it was amazing about brady He goes to tamp and he won. It's like wow Checkmate like this guy really truly can do it everywhere and Yeah with Gretzky like he won the four with the Eulers and what's kind of crazy is they won when he left Like he was crazy gone and they won in 90 which is a best year of my life Best year of my life because we thought we were done right as fans order. Yeah, it's over, but I'll say this I think that his point totals were so insane

Yeah, and he had the four Stanley Cups that it's it's different right that established to he was Didn't he win like a million MVPs in a row, like nine or something? Well, yeah, he won everything. He had so many records that were his. I think it's different for a guy at that level where you're one of the two greatest players of all time, at least the players that I saw play, I believe he's one of the two best. Yeah. Who's the other one? Lemieux?

I got Mario. Yeah. Okay. And other one? Lemieux? I got Mario. Yeah. Okay. And Conor's right there, but and it sounds biased. I get it, but I think most people ... No, it's fair. In the players I saw, so I'm talking the last 45 years, those three guys are at the top and I have Gretzky, probably Gretzky, Mario, Conor. Where's Brozby?

That's what I have. Or? Well, and I love Sid too, so Sid is up there as well. Again, I want to make it clear, I'm not going back to the 80s earlier because I didn't see them play because Bobby Orr is there. Orr and Howe and them or Richard. But I have a hard time talking about players I didn't see because I didn't see them play. So I can't say I look at the stats and my grandpa cracks out his old eight is watching

the Reels. But I think those four, and I'd probably put Sid four, but I love Sidney Crosby, but that's how much I think these other three are incredible. And I do have a demon in there, which is probably unfair as well. Yeah. Well, that is a good question. Noodles would say Hasek deservesik deserves clearly to be in here like noodles Intimidating guy right? Yeah, he intimidates shooters and then we don't make demons. Who's the best demon of that?

Is it is it well, that's the most chara. Yeah, Bork coffee. Yeah, I mean Yeah, I mean the question is will my car be in that chat. Yeah, when all is said and done, but it's hard It's it's it's hard. It's hard. And then you're a little bit biased by what they do in the playoffs because you see them extend out their time and the way they played and winning those championships. So yeah, Praunger, I mean, Praunger, right? He's got to be in somewhere.

Yeah, Praunger and Edemar would be in that chat for sure. I think it's Littstrom. I think I would probably say him and I would do all the respect to all those players And I think a lot of them would probably look at Nick as well Well, and in terms of hardware, yeah, I mean he won six or seven Norris trophies, which is pretty incredible But yeah Lidstrom, I think pronger Bore coffee like those are the guys that kind of stick out to me and then yeah, McCarr, Chara, Keith, Doughty at his height.

You know what I think has like this conversation reminds me of how hard it is to win now like in it. You think of Crosby wins three. Look how hard it is just like to win one like for the best player in the world. Like how do you win three? Yeah. And he went to he went to another final. Yeah, he lost his first one.

Right? Yeah. He lost the first year he went. The first cup he got to Crosby did and they won the second year. Like Hayes, if you had to guess right now, how many cups do you think McDavid ends up winning? Is it over, is it one and a half or under? I think he'll get one.

I think he will get one. One, right. But I... One's hard. It's difficult to predict many more than that because you know he's not a young guy anymore which is incredible he's still in his 20s like I think he's on his 20 928 it's been in the league for 10 years yeah yeah like what are you gonna have a 20-year career where you know he's probably got five

seven more like great great years great years and that doesn't mean he can't win when he's 34 35 37, 37. He still could, maybe rocks up two or three late in his career and they still will matter and they'll count. But I think that's another element to it as well is like, if you're the greatest of all time or in that chat, you got to win one when you're the man. You know, you can't, you can't Ray Bork it when you're 40 and be like, well, he got one. That's not going to count the same way. Like not David's got, I think he's got a three to five year window where he's got to win, like got to win more pressure on him to win than I've said it before.

And I'll say it again, like any other athlete, North American sports, I don't think it's close like judge would probably be second because of the team he plays for, like if you're a Yankee in an all-time You have to win for the Yankees. You have to I think Lucas gonna have that now If you're a Laker you got a win if you're the man with the Lakers you have to win is it no question So he's got a lot of pressure on him, but I think it's McDavid. I Can't think of anyone even Allen But like he's not but Allen's not McDavid like now he's like Allen's a great great player future Hall of Famer MVP's not

McDavid no Like McDavid has been the best player in the game for years. We knew his name when he was 12 13 or like this kids come and watch it and he's lived up to all of it. He's that great so Yeah, he's got he's got to get one. He's's gotta get one in his prime to i think it's he'd be the first all-time great player not to do that right but i think you're talking about rush mark i think yeah i mean if you're talking that the seven eight ten best players in any any sport

who who who's on that list that didn't win in their prime come back with a thick on it. We'll come back. If you can come up with it. There's a Jonas list. Think on it a little bit. Yeah. Get into it. But it's harder. Like part of this is it's harder now to win than it was before. Why? Why is that? Because more teams? I just think like the league is more sophisticated. It's there's more teams.

Yeah. I don't know. There's two more teams. Sid's, Sid won, you know, three when there were 30 teams. Yeah. I don't know. There's two more teams. Sid's, Sid won, you know, three when there were 30 teams. Yeah. And, you know, I hear you. Go back to the eighties. How many teams were there? Was it six? 20, 21 when Edmonton was winning. And yeah. So you got 21. So, you know, so no disrespect to those guys. No, it's, it's tougher now. I'll grant you that. Yeah. But again, you look at Sid, Sid didn't play in the fifties. No, it's tougher now. I'll grant you that. Yeah. But again, you look at Sid, Sid didn't play in the 50s. No. Like Sid's got three when there were 30 teams. So. Yeah, Sid,

I have to redo my list. Maybe he is in the top three. I can't believe I'm in the 50s. I still, I have him ahead of McDavid. Like I do. Okay. All right. Plus, because he's further ahead. Also the international stuff, which is not McDavid's fault He got job. It's got it. Like since it's got a gold medal winning goal in Vancouver Like yeah, look what he just did at the Four Nations. He was better than McDavid at the Four Nations He's like he's wanted for still amazing. It's incredible. He is Alright, we've got Keegan Matheson coming up from the park, Jay's Yankees tonight. More on the Open Championship and the legacy of Scheffler.

Our best bet still to come. Overdrive continues. TSN 1050 and on TSN 4. Claudia was leaving for her pickleball tournament. I've been visualizing my match all week. She was so focused on visualizing that she didn't see the column behind her car on her backhand side. Good thing Claudia's with Intact, the insurer with the largest network of auto service centers in the country.

Everything was taken care of under one roof and she was on her way in a rental car in no time. I made it to my tournament and lost in the first round. But you got there on time. Intact Insurance, your auto service ace. Certain conditions apply. So on Twitter, Hayes TSN You can send me DMs on Instagram

I try to keep up as much as I can at be Hayes on air on Instagram Andrew just tweeting or sending me a DM With a couple of great answers terms of all-time greats in the prime that didn't win The top of his list Barry bonds like bonds never won. He did make the world series, I think in 04, 02 something. I want to say they got swept. Yeah, by the angels I think. Or they lost quickly. But, um, still that's the guy. I mean, I get the PEDs and all that kind of stuff puts an asterisk beside him,

but yeah, Barry Bonds, Ted Williams, Well, so has he won with Detroit at some point, but not in his prime, not in the Buffalo prime. I thought he got one when he was in Detroit. Look that up, look that up, Dougie, and see what's up with Haschick. So let me ask you guys this, so the athletic did, we did like the top 99 players

of all time in the NHL last year, so this was a top 10. I don't agree with this top 10. I don't know who did the ranking, but I did not do it so one Gretzky to Mario three or four Crosby five Jagger Six Ovechkin seven Hasek eight Lidstrom nine Esposito and ten Bork. So how many of those guys didn't win? Wow, none of them. I guess well Bork didn't how many of those guys didn't win? Wow. None of them, I guess.

Well, Bork didn't in his prime. No. Um, but Jaeger did in the early nineties. Jaeger at five? That's high. That's, that's a great. Jaeger is not the fifth greatest player. Like, is he a better player than Novichkin?

Like, no, I don't think he was. But right. He played against both of them. I mean, you'd have a better answer than us, but I don't. I played with Jags and he was incredible. And I think if you look at some of the time he missed, you know, so he went away to Russia for, was it three years before he came back again. So you start putting in, let's say 30 goals conservatively or those, you know, it's almost

a hundred goals he has and that puts him further up the list. Yeah. Putting in let's say 30 goals conservatively or those, you know, it's almost 100 goals He has and that puts them further up the list. Yeah I think his peak was higher than a watch can tell though was messy on that top then No, that's so yagra is not better than mark messier as a player really was not totals say he is right Isn't he is the top? Yeah point total is second all time Believe yeah, like messier taking down their prime in a big game. Are you taking Messier or Yager? I mean, Yager did win two cups, didn't he? Messier at six.

And Yager was Lemieux's guy. Now Messier was Gretzky's, but he wasn't in 90 or 94. That was Messier's teams. We had Messier number 17. 17. So can you go 11 to 16 I just run through this whole so I sorry Jonas you're really it's fine making it work hard yes so what are you doing Messier at 17 McDavid at 16 too low Iserman at 15 sorry I'm scrolling up gilafla at fourteen joe sack a kid thirteen bossy at twelve and then patrick wade eleven

i mean these are all-time great players but but i always personally thought of messier's ahead eiserman and sack he was like that next level up personally i would agree with you. I agree with that. And I really love, this is hard. They're great players.

They're all time great players. Yeah, you're all trying, and so you have emotional, so I think, I had this debate with a guy before is that the problem is that we all get, when you're talking about the best of the best, you have emotional moments where you remember this player did this or this player did that in a singular moment. And I think that's what, that's how it becomes hard because like, well, remember when this guy did this or this player did that in a singular moment. And I think that's how it becomes hard because remember when this guy did this or this guy did that. So I want to say I'd have Messi above both of Sakic and Aizerman.

That's in the window though. Those are kind of three comparable. Yeah, it's open to debate. I'll grant you that. Open to debate. But McDavid should be in the top 10 and is, I think. So would Patrick W be behind Hasik? Yeah, according to, again, Noodles is pretty adamant that Hasik is the greatest goalie

ever. And remember Hasik at the Olympics that one year? He was unbelievable. He's got two cups, Hasik. He's got two cups. Yeah, that's it. So, sorry, just to clarify, is this all-time or post-expansion? I think this is all-time. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, so sorry, just to clarify, is this all time or like post expansion?

I think this is all like I didn't hear Maurice Richard. I didn't hear John Bellovo. Yeah, I think Larry Robinson, again, well before our time, but 1967. Yeah, so post expansion. So those guys would not be included. Okay, when you hear the older guys talk about Leigh Robinson, like when I came into NHL, Larry I think had just kind of finished with L.A. and the way that the vets talk about Leigh Robinson, they were like he was his favorite player, how good he was and how smart he was

and tough. How tough he was, man. And you know, it's like when you hear the older guys talk about a player like that, it's pretty incredible. So, but I never got to see him play really I never really see him play it lie right so it's that's where the divi comes hard it is it is difficult to do and and I think again it goes both ways because we're in we're the McDavid storm right now everything's the greatest ever we've never seen anything like it and it's like okay well you know maybe relax a

little bit you know so that and that's the thing like it's it's difficult to do when you're right in the middle of the storm it's the greatest thing ever most of all we've never seen anything like it well 20 years ago we were saying that about someone else and 40 years ago we're saying it about somebody else so though well I could tell you they said it about Bobby you everything they said about McDavid was said about Bobby. No, but that's more, that's a long time ago. Right, but then Gretzky came along.

Had we ever seen anything like Gretzky? Like clearly the smartest player ever. Like just pure IQ and the way he saw the game. No one, no one did it like him. No one, no one played the game like him. But I think there's like a handful of guys like that, right? Right. Yeah, I guess, I guess. Like you're right me like as amazing as he was we weren't saying like

we've never seen anything like that probably not but Lemieux was a part honestly Lindros was that when he first was coming out all yeah like Eric was a guy six four 240 killer with hands of like gold man like and they just the injury and the concussion and everything obviously Spiraled it into a different world, but you're right. I mean it doesn't happen often for sure I'm just saying it has happened. Yeah, you know like there are every generation or so There's a new guy where it's like we've never seen anything like it And it's true in terms of like the actual definition of the player and how he plays But there's always you know previous guys were were great, too and it's true in terms of like the actual definition of the player how he plays

but there's always you know previous guys were were great to ever granted that kind of same spotlight it happens in the draft every year to your point it's like this guy is like something different and it's like a maybe not so who was the top rated it was bobby or that report was the second highest defense now no

the highest rated defense was Bobby or that Ray Bork was the second highest defenseman now no the highest rated defenseman was Lidstrom no sorry Bobby or Bobby or or Lidstrom Bork and then Bork those three in the top ten yeah okay yeah you know who I think is gonna be underrated and probably already is is Malkin yes and you remember that top 100 that the NHL did and he somehow did not make it which is insane yeah for losing it no you're right I saw someone there was like a yes and you remember that top a hundred that the nl did not write i did not make it was in the same yeah for losing it now you're right i i saw someone there was like uh... an h l something online comparing him to another part i can't remember who it was

why didn't him in in dry so i don't have similar are very similar very similar like clearly their number twos like in the shadow of Crosby and McDavid. Yeah, but like Malcolm won the cons might when they won the cup in 09. It wasn't said it was Malcolm He won a heart like when Sid got hurt. He won a heart He was the best part in the league just like dry subtle did right when McDavid a couple years ago got hurt He won the he won the the heart when McDavid a couple of years ago got hurt. He won the heart.

Yeah, the comparison was wild. It wasn't like Boa Hora about our stuff, but it was something like, it's like, what are you talking about, man? Do you realize how good this guy was? He was a machine. So strong on the puck. So strong on the puck.

And had a little bit of an edge too, Strud, would lose his mind a little bit, which I appreciated. Oh, I loved it. Yeah, they were so I when there was two and then he had stall in the three seat spot Oh, you know what? Where's the fourth line? I'll play against them. Yeah And that's like Max Talbot running around. Yeah, you know, they had a better obviously really good but Yeah, very like who are the other all-time grades that didn't win in the pilot people writing in damn Marino Marino are the other all-time greats that didn't win in the primal? People writing in Dan Marino. Marino is not an all-time, like he's a great quarterback. He might be top ten quarterback, might be, but I don't think he's a top ten player ever

if you're going to include every other position. You know, Jerry Rice, Lawrence Taylor, Reggie Weitz and all those guys. All right, we've got Keegan Matheson coming up from the Dome, Jay's Yankees tonight in about 20 minutes more on the Open Championship and the legacy of Scheffler and what he continues to do and how long he can continue to do it. And we've unveiled our bracket one through 16 TSM radio of the most valuable Toronto athlete of the last 25 years. We're going to run through that portion of the bracket.

Maybe Jonas Strudy, you can throw it at me, I'll answer. Jonas, you could probably debate me, I would guess. Not on everyone, but some of them. I'm sure you'll push back on. We'll do that coming up as well. Overdrive continues. TSN 1050 and on TSN 4. Claudia was leaving for her pickleball tournament.

I've been visualizing my match all week. She was so focused on visualizing that she didn't see the column behind her car on her backhand side. Good thing Claudia's with Intact, the insurer with the largest network of auto service centers in the country. Everything was taken care of under one roof

and she was on her way in a rental car in no time. I made it to my tournament and lost in the first round. But you got there on time. Intact insurance, your auto service ace, certain condition supply. Something to Chew On is brought to you by Boston Pizza, Canada's favorite sports bar. Enjoy $15 lunch at BP where you get an entree, a site, and a drink and you'll get it all in 20 minutes or less. A fast lunch doesn't have to be fast food. See you for a $15 fast lunch at your local Boston pizza. All right, Keegan Matheson in about 15 minutes, we'll unveil our bracket for the most valuable

Toronto athlete of the last 25 years. Get to that a little bit later on. And we were talking about it last week, like the CHL and certain players leaving for the double a i guess it's being reported now that porter martone is on his way to michigan state so he'll be leaving the o h l was just a top ten pick how much money is making but i'm sure is making a fair amount and

it's gonna be a challenge like the c h l there there they're ready for it you know it shall be ready for it but there's more more gas it'll be really if man unfortunately star players are gonna go down and chase the money of its available so we spoke about it we talked about the money and and the lifestyle but i think it's also the development piece so plane in major junior you get a you know ctl again lot lot of games but

some of these guys might want to get physically stronger sinking they have a chance to make the nl draft year plus one or whatever you call it. So I think that's the piece because I know when I look around at kids that are around they, the ones coming to college are usually a bit physically stronger because they have so much time to work out rather than playing a game every second or third day as you see in the CHL. Not that one's better than the other but if you feel you're not strong enough maybe that's the place for you

It's an interesting thought because I think they play 38 games I think in college something like that mid to high 30s Where if you're if you're in the CHL and you're going to the playoffs, you're gonna play 70 plus you know what when all said and done and It is you know, it's it is different like now that schooling is a part of it and you obviously have to have you know grades you got to graduate like there's there's an element of that as well that doesn't get brought up the elephant the room some players just aren't gonna be smart enough to go to college you know they're just not gonna have the grades they're not gonna be able to get what is

necessary to go to these major schools but because that's part of it like if you're gonna go down you have to enroll and go to school. I know there's loopholes and all that kind of stuff. I get it. But still, that's a part of it. And you're moving to a different country. And I wonder how much of that is a part of a two strut. You get to transition into living in the US.

If you got drafted to the States, you're like, all right, let's might and we did that eight that transition would be as hard as a player coming from philip northern philip come into north america right yet so i i think that's something to think about but uh... everyone's got their own agenda or their own plan i think that's what you know family vibes and families have to figure out yet exactly and the almighty dollar is a part of it to announce be clear if you're not getting offered seven hundred grand american to go play a year somewhere that go to the n.h.l. it's pretty good deal

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