Is Working For Family Ever Worth It?
00:00 I've been so emotionally and mentally exhausted and feel very helpless. I even asked AI to rate my trigger level and it gave me an 8.5. It's coming for our jobs. A quick note before we get into the episode, Oversharing is a podcast for entertainment purposes only. It is not a medical podcast and does not constitute medical or psychological advice. Always seek the advice of your physician or mental health professional. Hello, and welcome back to Oversharing.
00:29 I'm Jordana Abraham. And I am Dr. Naomi Bernstein. So great to be back with you. I'm so excited that I'm going to be seeing you. Yes. We have a family wedding. Our sister is getting married. I'm very excited.
00:48 And, you know, it's been, it's interesting, like, because you guys have all lived, kind of dispersed around the country for a bit now. But now that I have kids and they're, like, getting older, I feel like I have a new like grief about it, I think. I think like, not that I didn't care before, but like I kind of think it felt like, not that I didn't care, but it was like another year was like another year. I wouldn't see you that much when you were here necessarily because like, you know,
01:18 you had your own kids and who were probably like little at the time and like we'd get a dinner here and there. And then and then when I would see you, it would be like for a full weekend, which would be nice but I think I don't know there's like there is a part of me that misses that like more frequent smaller hang thing is kind of nice like now when you have when you have I think especially little kids totally I really agree I think having kids is such a marker of time like the how quickly they change especially kids your age like how quickly they change in six months like you blink and you miss like the crawling stage or you blink and you miss you know like you know that they're not like drink they're drinking from a sippy cup and not drinking from a bottle
02:12 or like they're saying certain words or you know i don't know it's just like they're such a marker of time that like if i don't see them i can miss whole chunks and they're also they don't fake the funk. So like if you don't put in the FaceTime, they don't want anything to do with you. So that is really the blessing and the curse of little kids is like they're not going to just pretend that like Antine is their favorite when like. Right. Where they left things off.
02:48 Yeah. Right. So they love the people that really put in the time and put in, you know, the effort. So I bet you We'll have another take two of that picture Where I'm grabbing Lucy And she's screaming. We'll see.
03:03 I hope not. I'm sure we will because I mean they have that with Mike's parents Who they see like once a month Maybe like they still I think there's still like a stranger danger Initial feeling. But yeah, I think I'm starting to like have appreciated
03:20 when everyone lived close in a way that I that I hadn't now that it's gone. And I don't know, even just like the Jewish holidays, like there does feel like where there's, you know, everyone's in a different state. And I know like, you know, people will host, people will fly to those areas.
03:38 But it's just like, it just does feel, I don't know, it feels like a little sad to be almost like out here on my own, especially it's weird because I live on Long Island where we grow up. If no one else lives here. You're like the last man standing. I know, you stayed. Everybody else.
03:57 Everyone else is gone. So I'm like, I'm here and like those holidays roll around. And it's like, I guess I'll have to make my own. Yeah. Which just feels just feels a little weird. It feels a little sad. I think I was like thinking about that for like Russia Shana and that. And especially like I'm, you know, I have an interfaith relationship.
04:18 So like I have to like bring it. It's up to you. Now I've got like I've got work to do to like keep those traditions going. I need to, but I also, I mean, in some cases it's nice because it's like I can make them whatever I want them to be because there's no one else here who has a way that they do things. But it's also like I really have to any of those foods. Right. I have to like shepherd this whole holiday. Like whatever it is is going to be what they think it is.
04:46 Right. It's a lot of pressure. Maybe you could do like make it. enlist the help of some friends perhaps or yeah but those people have like their own like uh extended families and it's like i could celebrate with their families but like that also doesn't feel right like i don't know if i want to celebrate with like my friend's mom um yeah yeah i want to yeah it's weird i get the grief around it and you kind of take for granted you know like you're when we when it just was so easy and it just always just happened.
05:19 Like I guess it's some gratitude for like our mom who really did it. Like we complain a lot. But like every year it just kind of showed up the holiday. It was imperfect. Maybe there wasn't enough food. There was nowhere to sit. It was very chaotic. Yeah.
05:33 Chaotic. But it happened. Everyone was there. And the holiday happened and people were invited and they showed up in the door and somehow it got made and cleaned up. And so I do hear you. there was like always a togetherness that does feel a little bit missing and the change of everyone being spread out and yeah I hear you it is a little bit sad I'm looking forward to seeing
06:00 everyone that'll be nice and we are the good thing is and if this is hard hopefully we can evolve for this new reality and try to do more big family what I like is if we can do because we can't have the more daily, weekly, even monthly hangs, what I'm hoping, especially in getting to know the new generation of babies is like even a two or three times yearly, but like a few days at a time. Right. And we are going on a family trip in December, which will be fun. Yeah.
06:38 So they can wake up in the morning and we'll see them and then we'll see them throughout the day. and then I will see how that plays out. If maybe you can get in a good solid bonding because it's not just like, okay, I see you at a dinner. And then we go home and I see you at a dinner. Because I don't know, you know, I think there's something to be said for like,
06:56 good morning, breakfast, see you at the pool or whatever. And then I see you again for dinner that same day. And then we do the end of the next day and the next day and the next day. We'll see. Right. Maybe it leaves more of an impression. I guess we'll see. Yeah.
07:11 I don't know. It's just an interesting thing to like wrap your head around. We'll have to evolve as a family and see if we can maintain those bonds. But I do hear you. It is a little sad. We'll have to do more face times. Oh my God. The face times are so cute.
07:29 They just, the girls seem kind of into it. Like they're really looking at the screen. Like I feel like they're trying to grab the phone. I think they're like, I'm not sure if they're looking at like you or they're looking at themselves or they're kind of just like, what is in there? Like, let me grab it. And they're definitely intrigued.
07:47 But I think, you know, they don't really fully know who they're talking to or what's going on. But I think they'll get there. Yeah. Maybe, like, after they see everyone in person, we'll do it. And they'll, like, have a recognition of that. So that'll be fun. We'll work on it. Work in progress.
08:05 Yes. But anyway, we have a full show for you guys today. you guys for listening. If you want to write in, you can write in at oversharing at betches.com, or you can leave us a voicemail at 6463636294. Also, if you want to subscribe to this show, you get all the episodes ad free and a day early, and you get two bonus episodes a month where we do all sorts of fun stuff. We take feedback. Sometimes we talk to a listener in person, and we really get a little deeper on those episodes. And if you want to get involved in a different way. You can join one of Dr. Naomi's therapy groups. How do they do that? Yes, come join us. Naomi
08:49 Bernstein.com. We actually have an email today from a former group member. So you can hear a little bit about what that is like. It's a great space. I actually also do have some individual or couples therapy opening. So if you are looking to get started in couples therapy or individual therapy, And group therapy is always a great space because it's just a way to feel a sense of community and gain some perspective because sometimes your problems feel like so intense until you get some perspective and see what other people are going through. And one way to really heal sometimes is to help other people, to take a break from your own brain and say, okay, I can listen to what someone else is going through and just
09:41 take a break from that rumination about my own stuff. So there's a lot of benefits there to group therapy. Check us out. Naomi Bernstein.com. Check it out. All right. And let's get into our show. All right. I will read our first overshare. Hi, Dr. Naomi and Jordana. I'm writing to you both on a day that means a lot to my family. 11 years ago on October 8th, 2015, we lost our 14-month-old son Jackson Ray in a tragic and entirely preventable car seat accident. I went through years of infertility treatments, countless IUIs, and a story about the nurse performing the procedure when the doctor no showed that will blow your mind.
10:25 And Jackson was a total surprise to us. Watching you become a mom to your two little twisters has made me think even more about how valuable this conversation could be. Jackson was in the care of his nanny when he fell asleep in his car seat. She brought him inside and not wanting to wake him, let him continue sleeping in the seat. In an effort to make him more comfortable, she unbuckled the bottom buckle of his five-point harness,
10:47 but left the chest clip fastened. As Jackson relaxed in his sleep, his little body slipped downward, and the chest clip caused him to asphyxiate. It was an innocent mistake with an unimaginable consequence. I think that's the part of his story that is so important to share. His nanny wasn't trying to do anything wrong.
11:04 She was trying to let a sleeping baby rest, something parents and caregivers do every single day. She simply didn't know the danger. And before losing Jackson, neither did I. In the years since, I've tried to turn some of that heartbreak into something meaningful. We've hosted neighborhood car seat safety events with local firefighters and police officers, shared his story through local news, and created a simple reminder. Both buckles matter.
11:28 We even made little stickers featuring a son, a nod to our sweet sun ray that parents can place on their car seats as a reminder to anyone caring for their child. It's such a small thing, but I hope those. three words have helped keep other babies safe. I know that car seat safety isn't necessarily the kind of topic you'd expect on oversharing, but I also know how beautifully you both navigate the intersection of real life, relationships, motherhood, and the things we don't always know how to talk about. I'm not looking to make parents more fearful, quite the opposite. I want to give them knowledge that I desperately wish someone had given me, and I want them to know that the people caring for their children, whether grandparents, nannies, babysitters, or friends need that knowledge too. Tomorrow marks 11
12:07 years without my little boy. He would be 12 years old now. I often wonder who he'd be today, what he'd be interested in and what kind of relationship he'd have with his big brother, Nolan. I can't change what happened to Jackson, but if sharing his story helps even one family, avoid the heartbreak we've lived with, then his little life continues to make a difference. Thank you both for the honesty, humor, and heart you bring to your listeners. And Naomi, thank you for remembering Jackson and for offering me a place to share him. With love and gratitude, Meredith. I still get choked up hearing this.
12:43 So Meredith is a former group member. And having her in our group was such a gift. And she came in in her process of moving forward after losing her son and sharing this and just looking for help and how to be the best mom to her. Other son being a full-time working mom, like doing the regular life struggles that women do trying to be a working mom and also dealing with these enormous waves of grief. And I'm so grateful for having that her.
13:25 Like I've learned so much from her as a person. And I just think it's really always so inspirational to me. meet people who have gone through the thing that I think underlying every anxiety that you probably have every single day is the fear that we will have to walk in these shoes. So when you meet someone that's been there and you see that they can still smile, they can still make a joke, they can still show up. I mean, Meredith would show up to group and have the strength to help other people, Often. It was just so inspiring to see how someone who, you know, is living the unthinkable can
14:13 move on. So I'm really thankful to having, for having met her and having been able to help her and having watched how she helped other people, you know, and, of course, wanted to be able to share her story and Jackson's story. And I think, you know, oftentimes when people go through something like this, they want to be able to take it and be able to help other people, you know, prevent, you know, infant deaths in the way that she did. And just the way that she, the way that she handled her relationship with her nanny was also just so inspiring. You know, you can hear it in the email. Even the way she talks about it feels like non-shaming, non-blaming, when I'm sure that instinct to do that would be so strong.
15:03 And I, you know, when I was reading this before our episode, I was just like, I read it on a Friday. And all weekend I was like thinking about this story and, you know, thinking about all the little things that that you do as a parent in the same way, you know, in the same way of like that her nanny was doing to just, you know, your instinct of just trying to make your kids as comfortable and happy as possible and how that can like the idea that that could backfire just through no major knowledge gap.
15:31 Like this is not something I had ever heard of before. And I can't say I would put it past myself to not do that. I wouldn't even think of that as something that could happen. So this was really, I think really important, not for me, but just for me, for anyone who's listening who has kids or will have kids, I'm sure we'll remember this story for a very long time. So thank you so much for sharing it.
15:54 Yeah. And again, I'm sure when my. My kids were little, you know, I know they say not to let them sleep in the car seat. I definitely myself have let them sleep in the, you know, when you're desperate for sleep, we've taken emails like this before. When you're desperate for sleep. And they're already sleeping. They're already sleeping.
16:12 I mean, the questionnaire isn't don't let them sleep in this particular one. It's just both buckles matter. Like if you're, if they're in the car seat, do not unbuckle that bottom buckle without unbuckling the top buckle. both buckles matter. So I think that's the message here, which I had no idea about. So I think it's great. And I'm glad to, for us to be, you know, an avenue for parents out there to realize that this is a danger that you have to be careful of. So if you're going to, you know, if you're going to unbuckle, unbuckle both or buckle both, I think is the lesson here. So I'm really thankful for, you know, that Meredith was willing to share this.
16:57 And that is really hard because I know it's so tempting when you go through something like this to just want to not talk about it, not face it, not address it, not, you know. And so I'm really thankful that she was open to sharing and talking, not just, you know, in the group, which was great, but to come in this public way and allow us to share her story here. so that all the parents out there can, because this is, like she said, and the reason, you know, I think it was wonderful,
17:28 she's able to forgive her nanny for this is because I do think this, I mean, like you said, this is something you could see yourself doing. This is something I could see myself doing. You just want to have your kid be comfy and sleep better. And, um,
17:43 yeah, I've definitely done stuff to this, of this nature before. Definitely very inspired. like exactly how you said how she's kind of been able to take this very tragic event and turn it into something with meaning to help other people. And I think that that's inspired. Obviously, you know, not everyone is going through this exact thing, but I think whatever you're going through, that's like a good, like an inspiring story to be able to take that and do something positive
18:15 with a really, really horrible situation. Totally. And this is just a moment that I want to shout out to everyone that comes to my group therapy sessions and all the group therapy sessions out there that are going through the hardest things, you know, terminal illness, grief, loss, and show up every day and share because it is so inspiring to everyone else who gets to listen to that, to see how even on the days when you're not, it's not like you show up and you're always, laughing and sharing and helping. On the days when you're not doing great, we can help you. And on the days when you're doing better, it is inspiring for other people to see that there are still good days. Because sometimes we get so paralyzed in fear of what if, what if the unthinkable happens to me?
19:13 And it's an honor and a privilege to work with those people where the unthinkable has happened to them. It really does put your life into perspective and it allows you to see that, you know, life can move forward despite these things. And it doesn't mean that group therapy is always this, but it is a part of it sometimes and it brings a depth and a meaning to life. So I'm thankful. You guys know who you are. And this is my shout out to you. And thank you for for being there and going through the hard stuff and allowing us to be a part of it. So yeah. And Naomi Bernstein.com if you want to join.
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20:17 Consumer reports top rated subcompact. SUV. Stop by your local Subaru dealership or visit Subaru.ca to learn more. Consumer reports that's not indoors products or services. All right. Let's do another email. This one is a betcha-ist. Do you want to read it? All right. Long-time listener and first-time writer, Jordana, I have a nine-month-old baby and a high-energy dog, so I love watching your journey alongside mine. High energy. That's a nice euphemism. I need assistance to help navigate my husband working for my dad. My dad has his own business.
20:55 He's a CPA. Ever since I was little, my dad was a workaholic. I remember licking envelopes when I was in second grade when he was starting his business to send out flyers. My dad never changed a diaper, made a meal, or did anything regarding the house. He worked, worked, worked. And I'm extremely grateful for that because I have no college debt. He helped us buy a house and continues to help. us wherever we need. I'm now 34 years old, have a husband and a baby and a dog. My husband took a job
21:24 working for my father. He makes very good money because of this, but there's a few catches. We live an hour away. My husband drives an hour to work Monday through Friday and usually two hours home due to traffic. He's out of the house 12 hours a day, five days a week. We love where we live and wade the pros and cons of living closer to his work, but ultimately decided we'd be unhappy in our day-to-day lives living in the area of the offices. We currently live 15 minutes from the beach, 20 minutes from my husband's family who's very helpful, two minutes from a downtown with lots to do and a neighborhood with lots of young families. During tax season, February, March, April, my husband is expected to work every day, not one day off. And we are now learning before the deadline
22:10 in October. He's also expected to work weekends. My father still thinks my husband does not work enough. when we take vacations outside of busy seasons, my father gets annoyed, he's not at work. He thought it was ridiculous. My husband took paternity leave when our son was born because it's something he never did. How do I try not to be triggered by my father's lack of work-life balance and trying to inflict that on my family? How do I not get triggered thinking this is the rest of my life and there's no end in sight? Is the paycheck worth living the rest of our lives like this? Do we suck it up and move closer to his job? Thanks for your help.
22:47 I think the answer is pretty obvious here in that your husband needs to find a new job. Yeah. It's not working for your dad. I think there are here. Listen, I'm not one who's like, you can never, ever work for family. It's never ever going to work. I mean, you and I work together. Like, I think we do pretty well here.
23:06 But, like, I think it can work. But I think this is a scenario where it doesn't work. because your dad's role as like boss is like overpowering the relationship more than your dad's role as like father-in-law or even father to you who's looking at like your personal happiness in your family work life balance and like that's not really what he's concerned with he's concerned with like his business which is fine that's his business you're allowed to do that but now you've sort of inserted yourself into this work ethos that you don't agree with that you don't believe in i guess the perk is that he makes like he makes lot of money. I don't know if he's making more money because he's working for your dad specifically and he's giving him more money because he's related to him or if he just is a great job that he could get another job of where he makes also a lot of money that's closer to where he lives and maybe has a better balance. But this doesn't seem super sustainable for like either his work life or his relationship with your father and your relationship with your father. I guess the details that I would
24:13 ask if she were here were, is, is it just this, like, these comments and the judgment that's bothering you? Or, like, if he, like, is he still taking the vacation and he just has to tune out the comments? Or is he really not allowed to take the vacation and didn't really take the full paternity, like, take, take the full paternity leave? Or is this just, we have to try to care less about his opinion about his work ethic kind of thing. I agree with you. It does sound like getting a job more even for the commute than anything. Which to me is the perfect excuse that doesn't make it personal.
24:59 It's not like, oh, I can't work for you. You're like overbearing and insane and like, you know, drive me like absolutely insane. Like to me commute, perfect excuse. I need to find something closer. But, and that part seems like the most annoying also. Yeah, I agree. I think the commute is the worst part of it. If it really is like, it's not fully about the commute and it's more about I just don't like
25:27 how it feels that he thinks that I'm lazy or he thinks I don't work hard enough. But I get my paternity leave and I get my vacations and he's not really stopping me. I just don't like this feeling that my dad thinks my husband. husband is lazy or my or that he that my husband feels like he's not a hard worker because he feels like my he's being judged by his boss aka your dad that's something I think he could just work on in his own mind like you know like this guy clearly is a workaholic his judgment should be taken with a grain of salt like as a kind of a crazy person in some ways that is like has his own OCD or whatever you want to call it and that you can't really take his judgment of your character
26:20 as a worker as an accurate assessment of who you are and just kind of be like, oh, thank you for your input. I'm going to be taking my three weeks of paternity leave. Thank you for your input. I will, you know, call you when we're back from Mexico. You know, like just brush that off. But if he's really not letting you take the vacation, then I could see that that's a different situation. entirely. If it's actually like, you may not. Although I do hear the CPAs and tax season, I don't think you're going to find a job
26:50 where you're not working like a dog. And listen, I'm not here to judge whether the dad's thought process on this is right or wrong. It is what it is. It's his business. I think you're allowed to run it however you want. And I could see why he's like, just because you're my son-in-law,
27:06 you're not going to get special treatment and get, I speak this way to everyone. And like, again, I just think it's sort of like a breeding ground for a lot of resentment here because the dad is probably like thinks he's doing him a favor by hiring him. And it sounds like if he's complaining about it to you or to him, then he feels like he's owed something, which is I think where the family dynamic gets kind of trickier. And I really don't, I think like it can work, but both people have to be like very much on. there has to be like an over communication, I think, to work with anyone related to you.
27:46 An over communication about expectations and, I mean, preferably before you start. But like, in general, I think in those scenarios, they can work, but both people need to be super mentally healthy and super communicative and super like work out various scenarios before to not have it strain the relationship. because I agree with her. She's like, how do I not get triggered that this is the rest of my life?
28:15 Like, I do think for as long as he's working there, this is going to be something that's kind of going to be like a little bit of a rift with you and your dad and your husband, like a little bit of like an elephant in the air where if you didn't work, if he didn't work for your dad, he could, you know, call your dad from vacation and not feel like you have to hide that or some weird. Like there is a pride, like the, like the, what he's getting, I'm assuming is a better pay rate than he might get somewhere else,
28:44 but he's paying for it in other ways. There's no such thing as a free lunch, as they say. I assume either it's just the family guilt or they feel like he's getting paid more here than he would be getting. Maybe he's like a partner or something. I don't know exactly how accounting firms work, but maybe he's somehow as some kind of partner here
29:07 versus just an employee where if he got another job, he'd be starting at the bottom and he wouldn't get paid as much. Let's just go with that assumption about why he's not getting another job because he would be getting paid, let's call it significantly less someplace else. So that I think is the question, right? And even if we broaden this out to be more applicable to other people, I think a lot of people get stuck in this like golden handcuff situation with work where they're like, I'm getting paid a lot of money, but I'm miserable. And how can I make this
29:48 decision to let go of this huge paycheck and trust that I'll be okay, that I can have the lifestyle that I want, that maybe I can find my way back here because I do think a lot of people are in a situation where they're making a lot of money, but they're like, this is my life. Is this going to be my life forever working for people that are just breathing down my neck constantly. I'm waking up with anxiety dreams about missing something, answering emails, did I do it soon enough? Who's, you know, needs what at what time? And I can't spend time with my family. I have this beautiful house that I never get to spend time in. I can't even go on the vacations with the, go on vacations with the money that I'm earning. It just, I think this is a issue for a lot of people. I see it a lot. And
30:36 my patients where people are like, can I give up the money? And I think people don't make moves because it all feels very hypothetical and it feels like it's like binary. It feels like it's like, okay, I can like work myself to death and make a million dollars or I could or like I'll have to just like live with less. Right. And less is very vague. Right. And so if I were her, I would encourage her husband. Let's just see. Let's just take a peek about what's out there. Yeah, 100%. You have this job. What would you, what, like, what would it look like?
31:12 Let's just see, let's look into what it would. Don't want any moves. Let's think about what it would look like. What would this other scenario look like? How much less would you make? How much would the lifestyle change? What would we have to come back? Would we even really need to cut back on that much?
31:29 Like, you know, now that you have all this experience, could you find some, could you find a job that's just as demanding where you can work from home? like I think that it feels like I have to do this or I have to live the life of a pauper. And usually there's like a pretty good in-between solution that people aren't even like are like too afraid to even look at. I totally agree. And I think sometimes if you're out there and you're stuck in a situation like this, I think it just all floats around in your head and then you just get paralyzed. I'm a big advocate of like gather the data.
32:09 Go apply for some jobs. Go interview, get some offers, even if they don't seem like something you want to do. Just a bird in the hand. See what you can get. And also I think a good exercise is like see what other jobs are out there and see what downsizing might look like. You know, see what a different, like look at some homes
32:33 and what homes would cost and what you're, mortgage would look like in a different neighborhood and or what home values are like in a different neighborhood and maybe just walk inside and say, could we be happy here with a little bit less expense and what type of salary could I get at a different job? So that way you're looking at actual data instead of just this imaginary like you're saying. We're either in golden handcuffs or we're like going to be under the bridge in a box. Right. And that might help you feel a little bit like you know what you're looking at here. Yeah, I agree.
33:08 I think to have like a real, like to have reality numbers versus like hypothetical just changes the entire way you can look at things because sometimes the way you think things are going to be is not actually an accurate depiction of that. So and your husband probably feels like he can't even look without your permission. If I were him, I'd feel like I would want my wife to bring this up so I wouldn't feel like I was betraying her by suggesting this idea. I think that would be the most powerful way to move the situation would be for you to say to your husband, are you happy here?
33:47 If not, let's explore some other, some other, you know, setups and what that could look like. Just start the conversation. As an experiment, start, yeah, start the conversation. And then you could always choose to stay. And then you're right where you are right now. you don't have to make the move. Yeah, I mean, you could look everything up and see there's no jobs in your area. It's impossible for him to find a job in your area.
34:14 The jobs in his area has to work harder than he's working for your dad. Like there's no way to know anything unless you start dabbling. Check it up. But this is a tough situation because it does sound like where you live right now sounds perfect. The beach, town, you know, helpful in-laws, like sounds really great. I could see why you don't want to move. And if the job itself doesn't sound that amazing, you know, and in the meantime, here's another way to look at it.
34:46 In the meantime, if he does have to travel two hours on the way home and an hour there, see if he can use that as his, like, alone decompressed time. And I've talked with people about this too with like commutes, right? You could do the commute and you can be like annoyed. the entire time about the commute or you can embrace the commute and you can listen to some books on tape or you can call some old friends or you can you know especially once you have kids it's like you don't get a lot of yeah it's just time alone my phone comfortable seat i'm on a train so i can yeah maybe tougher if you're driving but yeah nobody's asking you for anything nobody's you don't
35:30 have to cook you don't have to clean so if you can try to embrace you you know you can try to embrace it. I know for you it's hard because you're home alone just like waiting for him to come back, but if he can embrace that as kind of like part of his time that he gets to, you know, catch up with friends or learn something new, read a book, listen to music, you know, that's his entirety of his scrolling time. Until you get there, maybe that he can embrace that time instead of seeing it as like torture time. And if you need some help, if he is making a lot of money, maybe you get a little mother's helper or somebody to kind of help you during that time. You know, if you do have, if he's doing that for the money, then invest
36:16 in something that might make that time better for you. If you need some help with the baby during that witching hour, um, maybe that's something that you can do as an exchange. All right. Well, good luck. Let us know if you, what you wind up doing here. Yeah. Give us an update. We'd love that. We'd love that. Okay, let's do an intention. I will read it. Love the pot, I'll jump right in. I'm looking for an intention to help me calm in frustrating situations with my mother-in-law. My mother-in-law is a bit of a hoarder. Her house is overflowing with stuff that she can't let go of. Even though her living situation is hard to watch, I try not to say anything or let it bother me because our attempts to help or clean up end in arguments, so I just avoid going to her house altogether as much as possible. My husband still goes there to help with her things once in a while, but he also tries to help. not to push her to clean up to keep the peace. The problem is we moved into my mother-in-law's old house in March of this year when she moved into a smaller house. We own both houses.
37:18 The move was triggered by several life events, including her husband passing away in early 2025 and me having a baby in May. Getting her stuff out of what is now our house has been challenging. The house she's moved into is much smaller, but she's unwilling to downsize. So we stuffed as much of her belongings into it as we could to free up the old house for us. Initially, I tried to set clear deadlines that everything had to be out before the baby arrived, but this has not been held up. It's now September, and there are still several shelves and dressers in my living space, and our entire basement is full of her stuff. Since I'm on maternity leave,
37:54 I look at that stuff all day, and it keeps me from feeling truly at home. However, every time I bring it up to my husband that I want this stuff out, he says there is nowhere to put it at my mother-in-law's house, and he won't let me just throw it out because that would upset her. Conversations with my mother-in-law about her stuff go one of two ways. One, she says she's working on it when we suggest she downsized to make room for the rest of her stuff. Or two, she gets defensive and shuts down when we point out to her that she's been saying that for months without anything to show for it. I know her hoarding is a mental issue that she needs to get help for, but she doesn't see it herself and our suggestions to get help lead to arguments. She gets mad when we point out to her that it's a pattern, and she says she will do things like clean up or make room and never actually does it.
38:36 She says she wants us to give her deadlines to motivate her, but she continuously fails to meet those deadlines, and then everyone ends up frustrated. We've accepted that she will not change and that all we can control is ourselves and how we react. When she visits us, everything is good, and she is great with the baby, but her stuff is still at my house.
38:55 So I need an intention for when I get frustrated that her things are still in my home, and for those days when we do move things to her, and she isn't ready in the way she said she would be. Bonus, if you have any advice and how to talk to her, this issue or convince her to get professional help. We've discussed hiring someone to help her go through her stuff, but she doesn't want that. We've also offered to get her a storage container, but so far she doesn't think she needs it.
39:17 Thanks, my house is not your storage. To me, there's a pretty clear solution here, which is you take all the stuff in your house and put it in a storage container. She's not using it and like you're not throwing it out. And like, then you don't need to worry about her dealing with it. it's not your problem anymore. Yeah, I think even the mother-in-law, like she says, what would help is if you set a deadline. I almost think what she subconsciously wants, and she said that we set a deadline and the deadline comes and she doesn't do it. I think what she subconsciously is saying, like, I need you to set a
39:56 deadline and enforce it. Like she's saying, I need you to set a deadline. She sets a deadline, but she needs you to enforce the deadline, which is like, if you don't get your stuff out by November 1st, we are going to hire movers and they are going to put it into a storage unit. That's the, that's the boundary, that's the deadline and that's the deadline enforcement. And then you will do that regardless, like if she doesn't, then you don't have to worry about what she does because either way you have a solution. She either takes it or you move it into the thing. And either way, it's like gun.
40:32 So what's the difference? gun and then when she wants to go through it, she can go down to the storage unit and she can go through it at her leisure, which will be never. The issue then is who's paying indefinitely for the storage unit. So that's the hard part. Well, she said they've offered to get her a storage unit. Yeah. So. And they could say from my understanding, these storage units aren't cheap and they're in perpetuity until she cleans it out. Well, then I would say we are going to pay for the storage container for six months. Right.
41:04 And then whatever's in there is going to be thrown out. Right. Here's your first boundary is November 1st. We will keep the things. And on November 1st, we're going to be moving into storage unit. We will pay for it for six months. And after six months, we will be calling junk removal. And it will be, that's going to be the one.
41:22 Right. Or you can take over the storage lease if you want to keep the payment. So then she has a long time. and she can choose to continue her hoarding, but she's going to have a consequence of like a monetary payment. And it's no longer your issue. Totally agree. I think this is just a matter of there needs to be a follow-up to the deadline.
41:46 She asked for, she even asked you for a deadline. This is like a little kid that's like begging for a boundary. All you need to, she doesn't need to worry about like what she's going to do with it and when she's going to do it. All she needs to worry about. is like, however it affects her, which is like,
42:04 this is going, I'm going to be removing this from our house then. Because for me, it's not about you. You can, for me, I need to be able to have more space. So make it about you. It's not about, she has her own internal thing she's struggling with. But you, and I don't think that's necessarily even your business to the effect that it doesn't affect your living situation. Yeah, I do wonder, to you, this, this solution seems simple.
42:29 to me the solution seems simple. I'm wondering why it didn't seem so simple to her. Maybe it feels like moving her things. It's definitely an act of self-love, right? Because you need this stuff out so that you can feel comfortable in your house. And I do think ultimately it's an act of care for the relationship too, because you're going to start to get really resentful after a while of her. Right now you said it's great. She comes over. She spends time with the baby and all as well. But after a while, especially once your baby starts to accumulate more things and the house gets more cluttered with your own stuff, this is going to start to feel even more irritating. So, like, it's an act of love for the relationship as a whole too.
43:13 Definitely. And I mean, I would suggest a therapist, maybe that's more for your husband to do to kind of help her feel like more comfortable with releasing things that she no longer uses or serve her. But I think that's more between her husband, between her and her son. So like, I think on your end, all you need to do is focus on what's actually affecting you. Yeah, I think it's probably more for her son to do and maybe just addressing, you know, she said, this does often happen when you, it's as part of a grief process, right?
43:43 Like, I don't want to let go of that chair. So-and-so used to sit in that chair. And, oh, I remember when he used to read those magazines. I don't want to let go of those magazines. Like it is sometimes part of a grief process of like holding on to these items that represent. a person that has been lost. So yeah, I do think therapy could be really helpful here. And maybe your husband can address, you know,
44:08 I don't know if this was his father that was lost or it was a second husband that was lost. But just to kind of say, hey, I know that must have been really hard. And maybe you do need someone to talk to. And maybe that is affecting how you're feeling stuck in this move. And it's totally like just normalized the therapy process. I don't know if either one of you guys are in therapy and you could normalize it in that way. But yeah, that might be more of a conversation for him to have. I think for now, the first thing you have to do is just set a deadline and enforce it.
44:42 That's the only difference. You've set deadlines, but you haven't enforced a deadline. That's the next step. Yeah, I agree. The intention that I wrote for her is we will set a boundary with communication, care, and love. It will be an act of love for us and our relationship. as a whole. So this is all.
45:02 Boundaries are sometimes acts of love for the person even that's receiving the boundary. Because it's going to make you feel more warm and loving towards her. Every time you see her, you're not just thinking about getting her shit out of your house. Right. How irritated you are. Yeah, I agree. All right.
45:25 Let's do some triggers. To set the scene, my dad has been dealing with health issues lately, which has been extremely worrisome and stressful. What makes it so much harder is that I live on the other side of the world. Recently, I got woken up at 2 a.m. with a call from my family updating me that my dad came out of a procedure and isn't healing as expected. It's very concerning and the back and forth updates kept me up all night. I had a social gathering scheduled that same morning, so I messaged the group chat to let them know I received some not-so-great news about my dad's health and had to skip. One of the girls in the group is someone I'm a bit closer to.
46:02 She has a history of having zero filter and saying weirdly off things. Not wild or crazy, just completely out of touch or wrong for the moment. I've always brushed her behavior off in the past because it's clear she's well-intentioned. However, after I texted the group chat to cancel on the event, she sent me a private text. She writes, aging parents, man, it's rough to see. And then the friend writes, that's tough, sending so many good vibes. By the way, remember so-and-so's dad was sick earlier this year? I don't know if you had heard, but he passed away a couple weeks ago.
46:35 I don't say that to take away from what you're going through or gossip, but it's just because you're my friends, and maybe it helps you feel supported to know that you're not alone. Logically, I know she met well, and I shook it off, but now that I've sat with it a bit, I don't think being well-intentioned is an excuse to be this oblivious and out of touch. It's not her news to share, and my dad is still alive. Since receiving the news, my brain has been on this doom spiral.
47:00 I've been trying and failing to control. Hearing about my dad suffering is so gut-wrenching. I've been so emotionally and mentally exhausted and feel very helpless. I even asked AI to rate my trigger level and it gave me an 8.5. It's coming for our jobs. My personal rating is much lower like a four and I'm curious if I'm underreacting and where you guys are with me on this. How do you handle people where you know their heart is in the right place but their
47:29 execution is painfully toned up. I think I want to pull back a bit and I'm thinking of keeping our interactions shallow good vibes only. Can't wait to hear where you both land on the trigger scale. Yeah, this is, this is a crazy thing to say. It's also like a weird thing to say, by the way, did you hear that person whose dad was sick, they died? So like you're in you, there's a lot of people like you.
47:55 It's great. Like if you texted a friend and you were like, oh, Lucy has a fever. I'm not sure what to do. Like, I'm worried that, like, it might get really high. And she was like, yeah, well, I have a friend whose baby died from a fever. So just so you know, you're not alone. It's not the same thing.
48:14 Right. And also not helpful. Right. Yeah. I mean, this would be a person where, if it were me, I would just not, they would not be a friend that I would go to with something that I felt was sensitive and that I wanted a compassionate person to be around. Doesn't mean I would need to get rid of them entire.
48:33 Maybe there's clearly parts of the friendship she, I would assume, likes. But if I was going through something, I wouldn't go to that friend for a, you know, Lenteneer or for advice because they don't, they're not good at that. Totally. I always, I love your one-liner,
48:53 like interpersonal mantra, noted. Thank you for sharing. Yes. Like when someone kind of like reacts this way, it's like just noted that you can't, the way that you react to this type of ask or this type of lean in. Like I'm leaning into this friendship in a way and this is how you handle it. Noted. Like this is not something I'm going to come back for again. So yeah. Yeah. I think she answered her own question. I'm going to come to come to. you for like good vibes want to go out want to grab a drink this funny thing happened send a funny meme um yeah the friendship got became has become less intimate yes what i would say yeah because she just doesn't she's not like you said she's not reading the room and maybe you know again some people it's like a like a different different brain chemistry like they just can't interpret interpersonal interactions and in a way that feels sensitive. So, I mean, I don't know. I don't, she's right. I don't think
50:05 she was meaning to hurt you. I think there was a part of this that did feel like in case your father dies, I have someone that you can talk to. Like, I think there was a genuine part of that that felt like that's what that was. But I, you know, didn't land. Not what you were looking for. in that moment. She thinks it's a four. I'll give her the four. I think AI tries to, you know, tell you what you want to hear a lot of the time, which is why they'll never come for these jobs, because we don't, we tell you it like it is. And I think this is a four because I don't think, I think she's just kind of like oblivious. Yeah, I mean, maybe I'll rate it a little bit higher because it was like the whole like the vibe when you're in that moment and you're scared
50:56 and she's like your dad's probably going to die soon so here's someone who you can talk to when that happens by the way yeah say by the way this person yeah crazy yeah i'll bump it up a little bit maybe i'll give it a five and a half yeah i think the the lesson here is you're right on don't come to her with this stuff she is not the person that knows how to lean in in this way oh All right. That's a tough one. Let's do another one. Hi, Dr. Naomi and Jordana, I have a triggered scenario for you. For a bit of a backstory, I'm currently a registered nurse, and I have been in that career for about 15 years.
51:31 Over the last two years, in addition to working full-time night shifts as a nurse and having three small children at home, I've been working hard towards completing a degree as a nurse practitioner. I'm only a few weeks away from graduating. This nurse practitioner program has been a huge time and money commitment and has required a lot of work and sacrifice for myself. in my husband. Now here's the triggered part. The other night I was working with a co-worker who I don't know very well. She's about 10 years older than me and has always come off as a bit of a know-it-all
51:59 type. When she saw that I was studying for the nurse practitioner board exam, she immediately started questioning me and sharing her unsolicited opinions on my career choice. She told me how she knows a lot of nurse practitioners and how all of them are miserable and regretted their choice. She said the job market is saturated and I'm going to have to take a pay cut. She continued on saying that Every single nurse practitioner she's known has gone back to working as an RN at the bedside. After listening to her go on and on about what a terrible job field I've chosen, I finally told her that I put a lot of thought into my decision to go to nurse practitioner school. Yes, I'm aware it has drawbacks, but it is something I felt strongly about doing
52:36 and how I'm excited about my future opportunities. I told her that I do have several job leads already. I also have many nurse practitioner friends who are happy. They went back to school and have not regretted their choice at all. She continued to tell me what a mistake it was. She just wants me to have realistic expectations. At this point, I was fuming. I told her that I didn't need to hear her opinions on this
52:57 as I am just weeks away from graduating. I even told her that I didn't appreciate her sharing her opinion and felt it was pretty rude and unnecessary. That didn't stop her and she kept going on and on. I finally had to get up and leave because she was not reading the room at all. So tell me, am I right to be triggered by this? Is she just a bitter lady that I should ignore
53:16 and not give any thought to, excited to hear your take thanks ladies yeah the answer to your question is yes she is just a bitter lady that you should ignore and not give any thought to this is just annoying at how relentless she was after she kept telling her to cut it out yeah at a certain point i would just i would have said like okay like thank you that's that's that's really interesting i'll i'll keep that i'll keep that in mind is usually something i say when someone gives unsolicited advice this is very annoying. I'll try that. Yes. But it's so obvious like what this is. You know, if she's older than you and you're doing this, she probably feels like she missed the boat. It sounds like it's a long process
54:03 and expensive and she is probably like feeling maybe a little regretful that she never took this path. Justifying her own decision. Yeah. And justifying that she never did it. So hopefully that just makes you feel better about your decision. Like what does she want you to do? Just like close the book and say, right, right. You want to go out then? I guess forget it. Exactly.
54:26 Exactly. You know what? You're so right. I'm just going to quit right now. Exactly. And when you encounter people like this and even any kind of version of someone's own wounds, their own kind of issues, and those issues are being pretty. projected onto you, even the father-in-law or, you know, who's like the workaholic and he had her
54:52 licking envelopes when she was eight, that's a version of his own workaholism that's now being projected onto the husband. If the husband feels like he's lazy or he feels like he's not enough or he's feeling guilty for going on vacation or this one where this woman's, her own insecurity about her career choice is being projected onto this person. When you notice that someone else's stuff is their own stuff, I often like to use, like sometimes I'll think about, you know, like the people at the, at the entrance to the subway that are like clearly not mentally well and they're holding up these signs, like, the kingdom of heaven is at hand, like trying to make you panicked.
55:42 like Armageddon and you're just like no I'm just getting my coffee and I'm getting on my train I'm not really panicked that like Armageddon is coming like I'm not listening to you at all you have to treat these people like that you know like you're a lazy bum because you took paternity leave no I'm just going to get my coffee and I'm going to get on my train you know you made the biggest mistake of your life spending money on your on your nurse practice no, thank you. I'm going to picture you as the lunatic at the entrance of the subway that's telling me that like the sky is falling.
56:19 And I'm just not going to listen to you because it's the same. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for sharing your fears and your concerns. I'm going to sit on my train. I'm going to listen to my podcast and relax because I know that everything's fine with my career choice and my paternity leave and whatever other things that I've thought through thoroughly and made a thoughtful choice and your personal mushugah in your brain that you're projecting onto me is not going to affect me in this moment. And I could see why it would be triggering, though,
56:51 because she's like, I'm literally studying for it right now. I'm weeks away from graduating. I've probably had a passing thought here and there on how helpful this will actually be at the hardest moments of completing this degree. I would imagine most people when they're pursuing anything that takes a lot of time and money and whatever have a passing thought of fear of will this be worth it is this worth the time and money and energy that I'm doing and I'm that's I think anything anyone does so I could see why someone just like repeating that nonstop repeating this in your ear as you're like doing the last thing you needed to do for this would be like extremely irritating to the point where she was like, can you just stop?
57:35 Yes, especially someone who's 10 years older, a little bit more established. Maybe she does know something. I don't know, but no, you're good. This exists for a reason. Nurse practitioners, I always think, like, that's a cool job because it's like one of the closest ways you can get to being a doctor without actually having to go to medical school. I mean, I don't know. Seems like a pretty cool job.
57:58 I know if you do fresh practitioners who are happy. very happy with their role. Right. And if she was a nurse practitioner who was then telling you that, different perspective, right? Then I would, you know, I would take that and be like, okay, not that you should quit, even if that was the case, because one nurse practitioner told you that she didn't like it, but she's not even coming from that perspective. Right.
58:25 She doesn't actually even know what it's like. So, agreed, projection. I'd give this a five. Yeah, same. I would give it a five. I think it's triggering for all the reasons you just said. She's working so hard. She spent all this money.
58:40 I'm sure she's worried that she's not going to be able to find a job. She hit on all her insecurities. But this is more irritating than anything else. When you tell someone, she was trying to be nice in the beginning. And then when you kind of, she started to get angry and tell her like, all right, I've made up my mind. Like, what are you trying to do here? And she kept on, that's pretty infuriating. That's someone with something that they need to, you know, work through on their own.
59:09 Yeah, that's her own thing. This is her own wound that is, you know, trying to infect the whole room. So good for you. Keep working. You're almost there. Yes. Well, we did it. That's our time.
59:25 Great work today. Betches. Thank you.
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