P1 with Matt and Tommy - Our mid-season F1 Driver Ratings: P21 to P11

Episode Date: August 13, 2023

We've averaged out all our F1-to-10 driver ratings for the first half of the season, and today we reveal who we've each got in P21 to P11.Join us tomorrow where we'll go through our top tens! You can grab our new merch here!Follow us on socials! You can find us on Twitter, Instagram, Twitch, YouTube and TikTok. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello everybody and welcome back to the P1 podcast with Matt and Tommy. Yes, today we are going to be getting into every single driver and their performances over the course of the entirety of the halfway point of the season. So it's not the entirety, is it? It's halfway, Matt. Come on. But either way, we are, essentially, we have made a list from P21 all the way to P1, which has accumulated all of our washed ratings up until this summer break.

And we're going to see how it's all shaked out. are we completely washed? And I will preface this and say sometimes we'll see comments of people going, why would you give this, this person a grade, they did this,

this, did this. And sometimes we go fair play. Like our ratings aren't absolutely accurate every single time. We are not the gospel of Formula One as much as we like to think we are sometimes. But, you know,

we average it all up and I think we've still got a good list on our hands, Tommy. Indeed. Yeah, everyone has their own opinion and it's going to be quite interesting actually because, you know, we've said this in our drive ratings before

that we maybe don't have too much of a difference between our drive ratings because if someone has a good race, we're going to give them a good grade. And if someone has a bad race, we're going to give them a bad grade. But those little, you know, fours and fives here and there

means that it's mixed the order. So we're going to see, you know, we know that people love when me and you disagree and have a different opinion. So I'm excited to see if our, Our drive ratings are a bit different and I've gone for Max P1

and you've put Nick DeVries in P1 we're about to find out if we've disagreed that much. Oh, it could be fiery. But before we get into it, a five-star review from Anne Lynn M in Norway. If you want yours to be read out, please leave us a five-star review. Let us know why you love this podcast

and we might read out yours next time. This is the best F-1 podcast. Every episode is so entertaining and enjoyable and it is simply lovely to listen to your opinions and banter. Keep them coming. Thumbs up regards from Norway. It love it. Thank you, Anne Linem. I think I've seen you many times in the Twitch chat, to be fair as well. So a big shout out to you for the support. And thank you, as always, for listening to the podcast.

And if you're listening right now, thank you to you too for allowing us to be in your ears. Right. Let's start with P21. The position no one wants when there's 20 cars on the grid, my lowest mid-season F1 driver rating will come as no surprise. Nick DeVries with a whopping 3.3 out of of 10. Yeah. I mean, it kind of, it kind of says everything it needs to say in what I've just said, because he's lost his seat. It wasn't particularly, it wasn't particularly great. It was, I think 3.3 when I look at it, I'm like, wow, that is absolutely savage. But then I can't think of many performances where DeVries genuinely, you know, made us sit up and take note. the only one is Williams, and that wasn't from this year.

So, yeah, unfortunately for him, Helmut Marco probably also agrees that he was P-21, and that's the reason why he made the change. Absolutely. So no surprise, my P-21 is also Nick DeVries, and my grade is actually 3.7, so a little bit higher, but not a lot higher. Comfortably the worst driver of the season. And I guess that is reflected by the fact that he's lost his race seat. And it sounds incredibly harsh to average, you know,

a three out of ten during the season, but the reality is, he had a shocker and was not only slow, but also seemed to have so many incidents as well. So, yeah, sad for him, but yeah, his season is ended as well because he is no longer, no longer racing. Yeah, that average will not change now.

I'm sorry, Nick. But yes, B-21, done. We now go to P-20. Logie Bear, I'm so sorry. 4.2. out of 10 average. I think that could come up in the second half of the year.

I feel like he's been more impressive in recent times. I think as he continues to improve as a rookie, he will be able to get better grades from us, which I know is exactly why he's racing in Formula One is to get a good grade on the P1 with Matt and Tommy podcast.

I mean, it's an incentive for everyone. I think, yeah, he has been closer, but it's been very, difficult to give him higher grades because of the fact that he is finishing four, five, six places behind Albon and Alex is extracting everything out of that car. Maybe on the face of this as well, I could have been a little bit more lenient at the start of the year with the fact that he is a rookie. But as I said, he can pick it up in the second half of the year if he continues being close

to Albon. Yeah, so P20. I also have Logan Sergeant. Logan Sergeant, P20, together again. My prediction has come true. 4.3 was my average grade. Yeah, just a little bit disappointing. He has had his moments where he's looked a bit better,

but he's not a million miles off album, but I think, yeah, the excuse of him being a rookie when you look at, you know, Piastri is a rookie and look how well he's doing now. You get less and less of an excuse as the season goes on. So yeah, it's a shame for Logie to be down in P20, but that's where he is. And he can eat.

There's a driver very close to him. There is. Both of our grades. And that is P19. I've gone for, well, I've not gone for, the averages say that Kevin Magnuson is 19th, with also a 4.2 average grade. Now, Tommy, how have we worked out who finishes above who

if they have the same average grade? Better, like, higher highs, basically. Best result? Yeah, yeah. Kind of best result from us, not in terms of champion, like a finishing result. A best grade from us. So KMAG's had a slightly better,

a better score than Leggy Saj, because before you go into it, he's also my P-19 and has managed to, get exactly the same grade as Logan Sargent as well. I gave him a 4.3. Look at us, hey? We're agreeing. I know.

I said we were going to disagree and the first three are all the same. But don't worry, it happens. But yeah, with KMAG, I actually, I feel as though he should be lower than Logan Sergeant, actually. When I look at this, I feel over the course of the season, KMAG has been less impressive as an experienced driver than Logan Sargent, who is a rookie and learning the ropes. So I will gladly put my hands up and say,

if I was to choose, I would swap those two now, especially with Logan, starting to gain some sort of momentum. Obviously, no points, but there has been slightly more potential than perhaps the start of the year. But yeah, that's what the averages say, KMAG 19th. Yeah, he's been very disappointing.

I think it was only a couple of races ago. We both kind of said we're getting fed up now of how washed he is. and when Nika Holcombberg's putting in some good performances, even in that tractor of a house, you kind of feel like Kevin Magnuson should be near Holkenberg. I think a lot of people probably thought they're two solid midfield drivers that should be about the same,

but I think Holcomburg is comfortably beaten Magnuson. And Magnuson's, yeah, just having a bit of a mare, so deservedly write down the order. Certainly is. P18. quite a large jump as well, actually. P-18, I have Valtry Bottas with a 5.1 average. It's been a topsy-turvy season for Bottas,

sometimes picking up the pace and beating show Guan Yu. Other times not. So I think a 5.1 sort of represents that in some way, straight down the middle. Very difficult as well. We do struggle with these Alfa Romeo and lower midfield to backmarker teams that don't get the limelight. We don't exactly know piece by piece how their races come together.

Bottas, of course, had a great start to the year. And I was thinking, hello, look at this. My prediction for where Bottas will finish in the championship is looking reasonably good. But after that, it has fallen off a cliff. Bottas currently 15th in the driver's standings with five points, just ahead of his teammate, Joe Guanyu, with four points. But we keep saying it. and it does genuinely feel like Botas is in that point of his career

where it's just winding down slightly. He's not even that old, is he? Like, how old is Bottas? Like mid-30s? Yeah, same age as me, 34. He's 33. Oh, 35th. Yeah, he actually turns 34 on the 28th of August,

which is obviously this month. But yeah, I don't know. There's just something that has kind of gone off the boil for Bottas. Obviously, going from Mercedes to Alpha. He's probably just enjoying the fact he's not got that pressure cooker of a team to be forcing results. out of him every week. He's instead driving a rather washed tractor

and it's not really giving him the results he'd maybe want. No, he's not wow does. P18 for me is also Valtry Potas. I've given him us not much more of generous, but very slightly 5.3. It's funny, yeah, you predicted Bottas do quite well. We didn't know when we did our P1s, to P20, didn't we, Championship Table.

And I seem to remember getting quite roasted for putting Bottas so down the order because it seemed quite a bold prediction back then. But he is sadly down there. And Alfa Romeo haven't delivered. There was so much hype around the fact that they're going to be Audi soon and this is where they need to start working their way up the grid. But the reality is they haven't. And yeah, Bottas, you think, well, we know for a fact because he's not been in the

yet, but we've both graded him worse than Joe Guan Yu, who is the inexperienced driver at Alpha Romeo. So it's not good. And has one less point. So, but then, of course, you take into account experience and the fact Bottas is a race winner and has been quicker than Hamilton, sometimes in qualifying, you know, and you're expecting big things from him in that team. But it just hasn't really pieced together like that. P-17 now. And I think I regret this one. On Nico Holkenberg, I have got in P17, with a 5.3 overall rating. And I want to apologize for some of my gradings that clearly have gone on over the course of this season. Because I don't think it represents really how well Nico Holcombberg is doing in that house.

He has nine points in the overall driver's championship. He had obviously an amazing Austria. He scored points in Australia as well. it's just difficult because then you mix that with a lot of very mediocre 15th places, 17th places. He's finished 15th, 1, 2, 3, 4 times. He's had an 18th in Belgium, obviously he had a lot of problems there.

But he has had two kind of standout performances, which should not be, you know, not sort of analysed at all because in that car is an incredible performance. So I feel as though maybe he does, I mean, to be fair, when I look at these grades, he is 0.2 of an average behind 14th for me. Yeah, so I feel as he's 17th is harsh. I would probably thrust him up to about P14

if I could change it, but I can't. And look, sometimes we have washed opinions, but Nico 5.3 for me. Yeah, these grades, there's, like we've said, Magnuson, Sergeant, lower than all these guys that they're coming up and very small margins can bump people up quite a lot to be fair. My P-17 is Sherguanyu with a 5.4, so just 0.1 ahead of Bottas. I think he's been, he's had an all-right season. He's shown good moments and I think he's been solid alongside Bottas who, you should be doing better as an experienced guy, like we said. Chaguan Yu had some good moments. Thinking back to the season,

his grade will have been hurt significantly by Hungary, which so could have easily been like a nine out of ten if he'd got off the start line and not done a bit of bowling. But instead, you know, this is the thing. Like, there'll be drivers on this list that have one bad, race or really bad that we might have even forgotten about and it brings their average right right down even if they've been fairly solid so yeah 17 for joe p-16 now and i have joe guan nu it's funny my p-16 has a lower average by 0.1 than your p-17 with joe guan new and 5.4

so 5.3 for joe guan new for me sort of echo your sentiments there tommy it's it's been it's weird He's got one less point, and yet I feel he's been more impressive than Bottas, especially in the parts of their career that they're currently in. But again, it's just Alfa Mayo. It's just really washed car. And I'd love to be able to see what Joe Gwain can really do because I think he has got the potential to be a really solid driver. And we see those glimpses, like Hungary qualifying.

That came out of nowhere. And then, as you say, went bowling. There was a problem with the car, obviously, off the grid. But that's the thing. How do you grade having a problem with your car on the grid, but then going slightly bowling. Some people arguing that he had a problem with his car going into the, into term one, things like that. It's hard. What number do you give that? Is it a two? Is it a five? Do you give it a seven? And people again, with the waiting of sprint to races, I see a lot of comments saying, well, actually, that sprint was incredible.

Why are you giving them a five? And yeah, it's the beauty of, of, of, driver ratings, isn't it? Beauty of drive ratings and having your own opinion that we're all allowed. P-16 is actually Lance Stroll for me with a 5.7 so a bit of a jump-up,

but still not a very good grade for Lance. Yeah, I'm not against this in being that low down. He's in a very good car. Alonzo has shown what it can do. And I will go back to a lot of people said, I think we shared a TikTok clip and didn't understand what I was trying to say. I wasn't saying that Ocon is better than Alonzo.

I was saying that Ocon had moments where he could beat Fernando, you know, the odd race, he'd be quicker or he'd beat him in qualifying, a lot more regularly than Lance Stroll has done. You know, there's been, for a lot of the season, it looked like Lance Stroll was a completely different, skill level to Fernando Alonso, which someone would argue he is, including me. But it's not been good.

He's so far behind Alonzo in the championship. I think he's the, I think Alonzo goes into the summer break as the driver with the fourth biggest gap over their teammate going into that summer break because Lance is nowhere near. In history, sorry, in history. And yeah, I think we said, if you watched our Red Bull, Red Bull not existing video, and if they weren't, you know, Lance Stroll would be costing Aston Martin the Constructors Championship, no doubt, because he's not been delivering enough points for that Aston Martin.

Well, he's costing them anyway for P2. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's still a thing, right? They're five points ahead of Ferrari and they're a whopping 51. points behind Mercedes currently, which with a Lance stroll that's actually performing, they're going to be second in the championship. Yeah. Or maybe it is a master plan from Lawrence who's gone, look, we need more wind tunnel time next year. We need to drop down the order.

Come on, come on, Lance. Give us a beautiful P-18 in Monaco and hit the wall seven times. Interesting strategies, because I feel like they already did that to get, they had ninth, and then they had all that wind tunnel times. that is the way in which they're working. We're now going to go to P-15. This is where Lance Drol features with a 5.4 overall rating.

So again, I've been a little bit more harsh with my scoring, even though he is one above where you've put Lance. He's had a lower average score. It's disappointing, of course, at the start of the year, he had his broken wrists

and this whole rehabilitation to get back into the car and you have some kind of I suppose sympathy for him and giving a bit of time to get back up to speed. But the problem is how long do you give him? And if he shouldn't have been in the car in Bahrain, should Aston Martin have made a decision to try and score more points, but then would Dugovic or whoever have actually done that?

I don't think so. And Lance, fair play. He showed a lot of commitment to the cause. A lot of people thought that perhaps he just would have sacked it in and not bothered. But he probably got a phone call going, yeah, this Aston Martin's actually really quick. could you just get in the car please? But it's a shame that he hasn't been able to perform.

It's just, it just seems like a running conversation we have about stroll where a few years ago, he's picking up a few podiums now and again, and we're thinking, okay, stroll's actually decent. They're getting polling Turkey and it looked like at one point he was going to win the race and things like that where we were, you know, there wasn't this whole talk about daddy's boy and, you know, all this cash. Whereas now, I don't know if it's just the fact that you say, Alonzo is better and therefore it makes Stroll look worse.

But there's something that just isn't clicking for Lance. And it all comes back down to the conversation we've had previously about the motivation for Lance to genuinely get quicker because he's the only driver really on the grid that has no worries whatsoever about losing his seat. If he wants it, it's his. And I think that is the problem that, you know, Lance Stroll is not a bad driver,

but I think he's a solid kind of midfield driver that comes into the sport for maybe two or three years and then loses their seat to someone else of a similar skill level and that's it. But the reality is that Lance can't lose his seat. So he's going to, you can perform like that. And while, you know, a Marcus Erickson or someone loses their seat and that kind of thing,

those kind of drivers come in and out in and out. I think Lance Stroll can be one of those, but is just having this massively long career and perhaps not motivation, like you say. My P-15 is Nico Holcomburg. It's not miles ahead of your one, actually. He's got a 5.9 for me. Yeah, a difficult one.

I think Hasse are definitely the hardest team to grade because you know sometimes you can be a bit harsh on Holcombberg I personally feel like it's I want to give him like a good grade because I think anyone in that car

like how's he put he shouldn't be punished for doing a really good qualifying and the car being terrible but then there's the other bit in my head that's like I can't give him a nine for finishing 15th so it's a difficult one

but yeah he's had a he's had a good season he's had like some good moments but yeah p15 it's funny because you know in our predictions at the start of the year we were actually saying oh yeah biggest good surprise nico holkenberg and we have him in 17th and 15th as the best driver currently in its season but i think it is purely down to the fact that our ratings we take into account qualifying but it is it's to do with the race and where they finish and if score points. And it does work against Nico in the sense of, as you say, he falls back and then he finishes well out of the points.

Then we go, well, how can we give him any more than a five or a six? Because even if he might start in the front three rows, he then falls away. But yeah, it's a difficult one. But well done, Nico. It doesn't really reflect. If this was qualifying, it'd be up there in the top six, wouldn't he? Yeah. With all of his Q3 performances.

But unfortunately, it's not that way inclined. Blame Gunter Steiner and the Has team for building a. car that cannot race more than five laps without their tires blowing up. P-14 now, I have Daniel Ricardo with a 5.5 average rating. Now, his grades got hit quite hard, I think, after SPAR. Otherwise, he'd probably be a little bit higher up in my ranking. He's only had two, hasn't he? Yeah, exactly.

So it's been hit quite hard with how he performed potentially in SPAR. I know there were a few people going, yeah, how can you give him a three? well, he did finish last. Yeah, he had some good pace and perhaps maybe a four or five was on offer there. But for Danny Rick overall, I think 5.5 is actually not too far off what he deserves really. But it's a difficult one because he's just in there after two races.

We'll see how it sort of filters out over the course of this second half of the season. But I'd like to see him do a bit better in that second half of the year for my ratings. P14 for me is Pierre Gazley who is the first driver in this list to make it into a six 6.0 And yeah, we mentioned this in our predictions that Gazley's kind of been decent

he's been on a level with Ocon we obviously both predicted that he'd be the biggest flop but certainly hasn't been the case but equally at the same time I don't think he's been particularly spectacular minus a couple of great performances at the spa sprint, of course, and then I think it was Melbourne, he was actually running really well before the restart,

and then that all going wrong. So, yeah, I think six is a fair. It's just sort of like, it's all right, it's good, not great. P13 now, I'm lucky for some. Carlos Sines is here for me with a 5.8 overall. average grade. And I was just looking at all the drivers ahead in my gradings and going, it seems very harsh for Carlos Sines as a Ferrari driver that we have spoken about picking

up his pace in comparison to Charlotte Clare. But on the flip side of that, we also have spoken a lot about him not actually converting that into a big result. Because I'm looking at his results over the course of the year. And there's a lot of sort of, there are a lot of top fives. I think he's had one, two, three, four, five. He's had five top fives, which actually is not a lot when you think of perhaps

Ferrari sometimes being the second, third, fastest car. So yeah, I've got him at 5.8. Maybe would have him a couple of positions higher if I was to manually move him. But again, it's all close. It's within half a point average grade. And I think after spa, I gave him a very harsh grade,

but that's because I did genuinely feel that he was at fault. for what happened with him and Piastri, more so than Oscar. But, yeah, P-13. P-13 for me is Esteban Ocon, 6.1, a whopping 0.1 of a grade higher than his teammate, Gassley.

And, yeah, like Gassley, he's been good. I think Ocon, weirdly, I think Gassley's six has probably come from him getting a lot of sixes and Ockons has probably come from him getting a 10 and then in something like Monaco and then getting a zero for getting all the penalties in the world in the next race. And yeah, is the case actually. I've just actually found a document that I was keeping the scores in and yeah, he's got like a 1, then an 8, then a 5, then a 10, then a 5, then a 5, then a 7.

So here's a bit more all over the place, I guess. some standout performances from Ocon but also some standout performances in the bad way as well P12 I have Pierre Gazley at 6.2 overall ratings so jumped a little bit there and actually higher than your overall rating

of Gassley of 6.0 Yeah we were saying this weren't we about the biggest flop and that's what we both predicted in another podcast that we did and yeah it's one of those where he's been good he's been all right he's just joined Alping

did we expect him? to beat Ocon. Neither of us said that we thought that would happen. But he's not been too far off the pace and I guess recency bias in some ways will go, oh, well, he knows, you know, Belgium. That was pretty awesome, wasn't it? But he's been all right. He's been good. I think 6.2 sort of reflects that. He's not exactly made everyone start writing about him and, oh, Gassley, he's smashing Ockon. And I think that would be a really big thing to have done for his career had he done that and joined Alpine. But it's not happened. But I don't think his career is under threat either from this season.

It's been good enough, I think, for Alpine to still want him there. Yeah, nice. P12, I have gone for Carlos Sites, which is a 6.3. Yeah, you mentioned it. Carlos has been a bit up and down as well. Like, he's been consistent. He's had those moments where, and then finally, now it feels like he's on that level with Lecler. He's had some big mistakes. so I think his grade has come down the order.

I look at where he is and think that he's had a much, he's improved a lot compared to kind of how he's been doing. And it almost feels like P12 is a bit harsh. But then I look at the drivers ahead of him. And I'm like, no, actually, I think they have had a better season. So yeah, P12, 6.3. Lovely. We now go to P11, just missing out on the points.

and neither of us have Yuki Snow to him, which is quite funny. I've got Esteban Ocon also with a 6.2, exactly the same grade as Gazzley. And I think with that, Ocon has been slightly better, but then it comes back to the expectations of where we think O'Con should be in that Alpine team after obviously embedding himself in there. And yeah, it's interesting how he's had some really standout performances. And I think that's what you want as a driver as well.

I would much rather see a driver have some absolute. amazing performances where you're like 10, nine, but then also a few where you go, Jesus, how many penalties did you get their rock on? You know, that's, that's unfortunately a few races that he's had, but he's had some that genuinely people have probably sat up and taken note.

So it's averaged out, exactly the same as his teammate, 6.2. And when I look at the other drivers ahead of him, it kind of makes sense, because there are other drivers that have been more consistently good or had a few more standout performances that have sort of pushed away those bad grades. So my P-11 is Oscar Piastri with 6.3, which, and I think what's quite interesting about this list

is we haven't, like you've mentioned a few times, it's very easy to get caught in recency bias and go, oh, Oscar Piestri is like the best driver of the season by a mile, why is he not higher? And he's done a very good job. but you know he has he was good at the start of the season but I don't think for a second if it carries on the way it is that Oscar capacity is going to be P11 by the end of the year but the way the average works out you know he's had a good and solid start to his career

and it's now kind of the last few races where he's been getting really big grades that have bumped him up uh bumped him up the order so yeah Yeah, Piastri, yeah, it seems strange for him to be down in P11 with how good he's doing at the moment. I don't expect him to be there at the end of the year. But overall, I think kind of mid-pack is a fair grade. Well, yeah, McLaren have literally only just got good. So, you know, if people are going to start crying about that,

they probably don't understand averages. Right, that's been 21st to 11th. Join us tomorrow where we will finish this. says it's a beefy old podcast, so we'll see you there for 10th all the way to first. Bye! P1 is a Stack production and part of the Acast Creative Network.