P1 with Matt and Tommy - Our reaction to Christian Horner being sacked by Red Bull

Episode Date: July 9, 2025

Christian Horner has been sacked by Red Bull with immediate effect. But what does that mean for the future of the team and, crucially, the future of Max Verstappen? Join us for our immediate reaction! Please fill out Stak's listener survey! It'll help us learn more about the content you love so we can bring you even more - you'll also be entered into a competition to win one of five PlayStation 5's! Click here: https://bit.ly/staksurvey2025You can listen to an extended version of every Race Review this season over on our Patreon! You'll also access to every P1 episode ad-free, early access to tickets & merch, and access to our Discord server where you can chat with us and other F1 fans! Click here to sign up now: http://patreon.com/mattp1tommyFollow us on socials! You can find us on Twitter, Instagram, Twitch, YouTube and TikTok. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello everybody and welcome back to an emergency podcast. Formula One does not know how to just chill and just do it at times where we're ready. I was clearly not suited for this. Tommy's in a Mercedes shirt. We're finally seeing what Tommy wears around the house. And we are reacting to the news that Christian Horner has been sacked by Red Bull. He is gone. Lauren Meckes is taking his place.

Tommy, this is big news, news that I did not see coming, especially just randomly in the middle of the season. On a random Wednesday, yeah. How are you feeling after this, Mr Max Verstappen fan? I'm in shock. I thought this, you know, Christian Horner's been under a huge amount of pressure this last year and a half. Of course, I felt like if they were going to do it, it would have been done around the time that all the controversy happened. but of course he dug his heels in, which we'll talk about, and stayed for a while longer.

Things have obviously got worse and worse for Red Bull, of course. And now we've spoken many times about the downfall of Red Bull, the performance, the driver situation, everything going on, all the personnel leaving. And now, you know, Christian Horner to leave, he's been there since the very start. You know, Red Bull Racing have had no other team principal than Christian Horner, their entire existence. And he's gone.

Okay, so a statement from Red Bull I am seeing here from BBC is that Christian Horner has been sacked by Red Bull after 20 years as team principal. Lauren Meckies has been promoted from Racing Bulls to replace him as CEO. So not a lot of information to come from this, Tommy. Just very much, it's happened, cutthroat, done. it is mad to think, right, that only 2023, Red Bull nearly won everything, nearly every single race. And now the team principal that was in charge of that is now gone.

Even this time last year, the British Grand Prix last year, you know, we were looking at Red Bull probably had won pretty much everything between 2022 and that point. And then, as we said, many times in the podcast, the downfall of Red Bull and their performance and everything else going on behind the scenes has been insane. And this is just another moment in Red Bull that's just kind of them being in all the bad headlines, basically. So I guess the first question is, was it the right choice? There's been a power struggle at Red Bull for a very long time. This is not the first we've

sort of had any inkling of trouble at the top. Of course, Horner, through that whole controversy last year. And it felt like that might have been the time that he was going to go. Again, like there was definitely a tug of war going on in Red Bull. Horner somehow survived that, thought, okay, all right, he's locked in for the long term now. And now he's been sacked out the blue. So obviously, whatever has been seen from a sort of public facing side, we thought, okay, maybe it's calmed down a little bit.

It hadn't. and how much of it is to do with just the power struggle, how much is it to do with maybe the direction in which Red Bull are going, how much it says about perhaps their 20-26 car and beyond as well. There's a lot of unrest. And I think if you're Max Verstappen, I'm grabbing my... Toto?

About that deal. Just wondered. Is it still on the table? I think it will be 100% on the table. I mean, was it the right choice? No, it's not the right choice. He should have been fired 18 months ago. Because, let's be honest, one, because of what happened. But two, he, of course, that there was all this chatter,

wasn't there in these rumours that it was kind of, there was a lot of pressure from the Vastappen camp and Helmut Marco and people within Red Bull saying, well, if Christian Horner stays, I'm gone. and Christian Horner's approach from what we heard was that Christian Horner was basically going to dig his heels in and say well if everyone wants to leave and I'll stay I'm staying and since that day Adrian Newey's gone

you know gone to Aston Martin one of the most if not the most important person in the whole Red Bull stable has gone who you never thought would leave Red Bull so that is a huge thing to happen anyway Jonathan Wheatley's gone to Salba and Salba now apparently a podium team, which another big, you know, big personnel lost. And of course, there was all the rumours about Max and Max just happened saying, well, if Kristen Horner doesn't go, we're going to leave as well and Helmut Marco's going to leave and things like that, which hasn't happened yet. We'll discuss that later.

But it kind of feels a little bit too little too late. they're already losing their personnel, their performance has dipped, well, I say dipped, dropped. And yeah, it kind of does feel a little bit, too little too late because they've lost such key people and maybe they're about to lose the best driver the team's ever had. Well, yes. Whether the two will be linked, we don't know yet. But what we do know is obviously what's been put in front of us. and it's such a strange thing to have just been popped out of the blue, isn't it? A question from P1 on Patreon member, TVR driver. Why not wait until the summer break?

I don't know. It feels like, and obviously this is very much just speculation and what we think may be gone down, it feels like whatever they've been trying to do or a loophole that they've been trying to find to get Christian Horner out, they've finally found it and gone, press the big red button, the trap door has been opened, you are gone. The same time, there is a couple of weeks, obviously, break and then we, or technically three weeks, isn't it, between the races. So perhaps they saw that as a midpoint of the season.

It's not really much different to the summer break, which is only one more week, I think, than what we're currently experiencing. But, you know, maybe, Tommy, I'm going to float this one out. Perhaps Max Verstappen, you know, all the chatter was about Max Verstappen's performance clause. What about a Christian Horner performance clause? Very true. Max has dumped the loud pedal to make sure he doesn't score many points. Boom.

See you later, Christian. I know you're joking, but I know a lot of people mention that. I don't believe for a second that they're ever going to throw points away like Max has to happen or anything to make things happen. But you do wonder if Christian Horner had some kind of performance clause. It does seem interesting timing that it's happened right in the middle of the season at the exact midpoint. point, of course, after the British Grand Prix, yeah, maybe there was something, or they've just tried to work out how they could get rid of him, because of course, it seemed very much like they wanted to. We've mentioned this a few times, but there was a big power struggle,

wasn't there at Red Bull after Dietrich Matashets died, and it kind of split off into two camps where you've got the kind of original creator of Red Bull that's the Thailand's side and then Dietrich Matterschitz, Austrian side with his son, and it seemed like the Thailand side was very pro-horner, the Austrian side was very against Horner, and it was, you know, a complete mess, and there's no surprise that the team has struggled when there's all this controversy going on as well. But yeah, I guess they had an opportunity to do it, and they couldn't wait any longer, and they think it's time to make a change. Now, it'd be interesting to see if Lauren Mecky's is the

kind of driver that they, sorry, the team principle that they, driver, but he might have to be at this way. Driving change, Tommy, that's what you're going for. He might have to be at this rate if they don't have anyone to drive for them. But no, Lauren Mecky's joining as the new CEO, is that a permanent change or just a kind of step up, then we'll sort it out later? Because you think a team like Red Bull, having won so many championships,

even if they are on this downward trajectory, that they'd probably want a huge name to replace Christian Horny, you'd think. Yeah, I agree with that one. I think that Lauren Mecky's... With the greatest of respect. Yeah, for sure. But does he have that high profile,

I don't know, heavyweight nature to him right now? No, but perhaps he's been just training this whole time to eventually take over at Red Bull. But either or, you know, this will be a bit of a temporary thing, I'm sure, but if he manages to turn around Red Bull and all of a sudden the second car is right up there with Max Verstappen, then perhaps Lorraine Meckes was the solution. It wasn't the drivers they needed after all. But yeah, it's going to be fascinating to see what Red Bull do next. We've got a massive regulation change coming up next year. This is going to cause some unrest within Red Bull. And is that something that Max is going to want? Question. P1, Patreon member Charlotte 90. Does this? mean it is more likely that Max will leave. It's difficult to say, isn't it? Because it's almost like one of the people he didn't really have any allegiance with has gone. So does that change Max's

position? Not really. But then on the flip side of that, it does, as I mentioned, cause unrest within Red Bull in general. You know, you need to find another leader that will make everything churn and everything turn turn make the cogs turn that's the one i was going for um there is going to be an element of of waiting as well for rebel to perhaps get back up and running and you're coming into a new regulation set where they could easily be behind anyway for me i think it looks more likely that max will leave with this kind of news despite it kind of going against what it might seem on paper by the fact that it's not marco that's leaving if it was marco that's leaving i'm thinking in tomorrow Max Verstappen is announcing that he's going to

to Mercedes. So for me, I still think it will make it more likely that Max will leave. So do I. I think this makes me more confident that he will be going to Mercedes now, even though, yeah, of course, as we mentioned, the team Vastappen, which obviously includes his dad. Yeah, not me, but yeah, his dad obviously has a huge influence on Max's choices

and decisions as well that he's played a big role and he's been very anti-Christian Horner from the start. And this could be taken of two ways in my opinion of Max Verstappen has already signed or about to sign for Mercedes

and they've gone, well, thanks Christian Horner, you've ruined everything, you're being fired. Or it could be the only, you know, the Vestappans don't like Christian Horner and he's like the piece of the puzzle

and might be, the only the only way we can possibly keep Max Verstappen is to fire Christian Horner and we think that's worthwhile doing. It could also be that. It could also be a complete desperate, final attempt of Red Bull to say, look, Max, you don't, you team Verstappen don't like Christian Horner, they've got beef with him, they've been very public about it. And same with Helmut Marco in the past. We'll get rid of Christian Horner for you. Now will you'll use. day, please, peace, peace, peace, peace. I don't know though. That's not, you can't just sack Horner. Like, you can't just be like, Horner, you are gone. Take care. You know, that just because,

or to try and appease, Max. I feel like that's where the lawyers of Christian Horner can easily defend from that. But if, I think your other sort of scenario there is more viable in the sense of, well, you've lost our key driver. Well, your performance clause has now been triggered Christian Horner. See you later. You've just lost our style driver. So I can see that being very feasible indeed. A question from P1Pitch, remember Tony Soprano. Will Horner get the credit for all he achieved at Red Ball or will the last 18 months ultimately overshadow it?

I mean, his image has taken a beating. I mean, quite rightly as well with everything that went on. So in terms of recent memory, yeah, I think for sure. It's that will be what lasts in a lot of people's minds. is the turmoil that went on. He did achieve a lot with Red Bull. It has to be said, and of course the history books will remember that. But will he be seen as lovingly and as affectionately as perhaps he would have wanted

as he was staying at Red Bull for so long? I don't think so. No, it's obviously a very sour, but you could easily argue a deserved end to his kind of time at Red Bull, you know, who will go down statistically as one of the most successful team principals in the sport, that he, of course, won those championships. And then after the Mercedes dominance brought them back to more to more championships. And obviously the team principal is a huge part of that team. And it depends how much, you know, you'll never know, you can never put like an exact thing on it. But I do. do you do kind of question that all these key personnel and team members leaving and you look at the performance kind of suggests that while Horner has done a good job as team principal it's not like the he held everything together because clearly newie leaving jonathan we leaving has ripped that that team apart and look just look how they're they're doing so um yeah in the

record books he'll go, but unfortunately for him, but, you know, fairly, this is going to be a huge shadow. Certainly is. A question for people on picture, remember, Glush. Do you think Max had any influence in the Horner sacking? I don't think so. I just don't see that as Max's personality. I think that it's more of a Yoss thing, perhaps still in the Vestappen camp.

But Max, we know him as a person. is just fully dedicated to racing. He wants the best car possible. Perhaps if he saw some link to Christian Horner's way of managing the team, perhaps he had maybe a few comments to say. But in my opinion, I don't think he was the leader in this charge to get rid of Horner. I just feel like he would have taken a backseat,

just happy to be driving the car and to do what he loves the most and let everyone else. Because this was a power struggle, as we've said earlier. I don't think this is necessarily a Max-led thing. No, I don't think it is either, there is part of me that thinks that it is those two scenarios that I discussed earlier, that it's either a desperate attempt to keep him

or Max has gone. And there's reports in the Dutch media now saying that the chairman and CEO of Mercedes, who's not Christian Horner, but the higher-up CEO of just Mercedes-Benz in general, has given the green light now for them to sign Max. A 102 million euro buyout clause, apparently is not an issue for Merck. And you can see why...

102 milly? Yeah, they'd do it, wouldn't they? Goodness. And I've seen people pose a question online that's like, you know, they pay George Russell this much, and Max they'd have to pay this much and also this massive buyout clause, is it worth it? It's like, yes, unfortunately for Russell, yes, look at. Lewis Hamilton and the price of... It's not confirmed it's going to be Russell that goes, mate.

Well, no, but that's an option, isn't it? Yeah. So it could be Russell and Vestappen. I'd be amazed if it was. Please, I'd need it. No disrespect to Antonelli. I'd love to see him still in a car, and I think he still has some learning to do,

and somewhere on the grid would be great. But just the Russell versus Vastapen. Yeah, it would be insane. I just don't see it personally. I think George will be feeling very nervous. nervous about this news. Yeah, he's seen this news like, oh no, Toto, I'll take a 50% pay cut. That honestly, I will, you don't just. I'll drive for free. Yeah, yeah, please. Just let me stay in he, you do wonder how him talking in the press conference about, I've not spoken to anyone

else is not true. And if it is true, maybe start. I think you're obviously in a George Russell's calling. Yeah, yeah, I think so. It's insane though. Russell is doing so well in Mercedes. He is. Like, it's not even like he's still having a good season. He's having his best season, I think, in Formula One. And the fact that we're even discussing this as a potential is wild. We will, of course, keep very much you up to date with everything that's going on, because we're learning it as you guys are. We had no heads up of this whatsoever, and I don't think anyone did.

Question, final question, in fact. How likely will Max leave Red Bull as a percentage? We have to lock it in right now. Bearing in mind, we did a podcast. about five months ago saying he's going to stay at Red Bull I'll admit now that has changed for me yes

it's definitely leaned more in the favour of leaving it doesn't have to go to Mercedes and go anywhere he wants yeah Astin maybe not Ferrari please don't kick out Charlotte Hamilton of the Starre that would be insane I think the percentage of him leaving now

is 70%. That's why I'm going to lock in as a number. What's yours, Tommy? 90. Ooh. Wow. It's a good job we've been working with Adidas recently, mate, because you can get on the phone

to get some Vastap and merch sorted. Perhaps it's even been printed. So there you go. Right. Well, this was news we did not expect to be having on a lovely Wednesday. Tommy, what are your final thoughts

after all of this? And how do we go from here? My final thoughts? I just can't believe that we are in a situation where Max Verstappen going to Mercedes seems a likely option or really has huge legs now. I really thought after 2025 everyone was locked in and the grid wasn't going to change much. But as we mentioned, you know, if he does, we're going to have that exact same domino effect that we saw Lewis Hamilton because George Russell, if he's without a seat,

that's going to, he's going to be a very highly sought after driver as well and then that will bunch people up and, oh, it's going to be crazy if it happens. Okay, there you go. We've reacted to Horner being sacked. Let's know your thoughts, of course. We will read them and, well, let's see what happens next. Tomorrow, do we talk about Max to Mercedes? We will have to wait and see.

But thank you everybody for tuning into this emergency podcast, and we'll see you very soon. Lots of love. Take care. Bye. Bye. Can I go to the gym now? Like, seriously.

For God's sake. Christian Horner, how dare you get this news out when I'm about to go out the door? My chore is to keep your job. Stay employed. P1 is a Stack production and part of the Acast Creator Network.