P1 with Matt and Tommy - We need to change F1's point system

Episode Date: June 8, 2023

With increased reliability and fewer yellow flags, we've seen an increasing disparity in points scoring this season. So should we offer points to the top fifteen places? We think so - we've even adjusted this year's Championship to see how it would play out!See our alternative points table here! Follow us on socials! You can find us on Twitter, Instagram, Twitch, YouTube and TikTok.***Please take the time to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your pods. It means a great deal to the show and will make it easier for other potential listeners to find us. Thanks!*** Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello everybody and welcome back to another P1 podcast with Matt and Tommy. Today, we are trying to make Formula One better. We always try and make Formula One better and we think we know better than everyone else. We don't. We really don't. Thank you for listening to our washed opinions once again. Tommy, today we are going to talk about the point system and how perhaps there's a few tweaks that need to be made.

Look, we need Yuki Sonoda higher in the championship. so we need to change the points. This is the only reason you're on board for this, isn't it? Okay, cool. So we've got resident Yuki Sanoda fanboy who didn't predict him to beat you at Nick DeVries this year on the podcast and me, who also believes that there should be some changes.

So what we have kind of suggested and put to you on the YouTube community was, is it about time F1 put points down to 15th? We asked you that question, 46,000 of you voted and 62% of you said no. So really glad we've got our ear to the ground as Formula One fans. But perhaps it was a very specific question

you asked Tom Bellingham. Maybe it was just, do the point system need to be adjusted for it to be maybe increase that percentage? Because there are some people, Ronak Jane, for example, who said, not 15th, but something like 12th would make it competitive.

Seems like a sweet spot. And then we've also got TK, who, said right now finishing between 11th and 20th makes little to no difference. Overall, that means that towards the end of the race, everyone from 13th onwards starts to hold back. So I feel like there is, there's something here, Tommy. There is. Do you think the top 15 is the one?

I like the top 15, but I can see why people think maybe 12th. I do think they need to extend it to a point because the bulletproof reliability we've seen, I feel like I remember looking at how many times in F1 history. The entire grid has finished. And it was barely like two or three before about 20, 22. And then now it seems to be quite regular. And even when we do have races where we have retirements, it's kind of one or two rather than loads.

So it just means that when you actually have these points on offer, particularly with how like you've got this kind of tier system at the moment with a top four teams, if you like. There's not many points to play for. And yeah, I think now the reliability is so bulletproof. I think a little change needs to happen, whether that's to 12th or 15th. I personally would like to see points to 15th. Now let's kind of break this down then to pros and cons.

It's probably the easiest way of going through. through this. It's quite hard as well to come up with a massive cons list when we're both full changing the point system in some way. But let's start with the pros, and this is for down to 15th, or let's say just extending the point system, it rewards more drivers. So the battles are worth more. Now, I've seen some people going, well, actually, it wouldn't really change anything and why should we give out participation trophies to drivers and whatnot? I don't quite understand the argument of that of it being a participation trophy because I think one of the awesome things around the lower teams battling is that occasionally they might score a point and it's a massive

deal for them. But the problem with which we now face in 2023 Formula One of the top four teams now locking out the top eight positions most of the time and also reliability means that there aren't these moments to really grasp onto. So if you have it down to the top 15, it means these these battles that you see for 13th, 14th, 15th, rather than going, oh, well, you know, who cares? What's the point? Oh, you know, they might go side by side or, you know, they might risk it, you know, just for a bit of banter.

But there's never anything on the line. Whereas if you have a point or two, which could change the whole complexity of the championship, then I'm absolutely here for it. I don't really see it as a participation trophy. No, it actually means something to have these battles where, you know, if you're an Alpha Tauri or an Alpha or Mayo, yeah, you're not going to get points on the regular. It's going to be really hard to break into that top 10 when the top eight are already locked, locked in. Then you could argue that maybe even Alpine are sitting next and with reliability, that's no points on offer.

Now, I don't understand why it's a bad thing that these teams at the bottom have something to fight for because I personally think that the championship and the Constructors Championship should be decided based on how well you're doing rather than just having, you know, and there will be fluke results naturally in Formula One even if you did to 15th because you have the odd crazy race and you get loads of points. but it shouldn't be a case where, yeah, you can get six points in a race and then you're locked in for the rest of the season because you know that Alpha Mayo or Haas or whatever aren't going to get that amount of points. I hear you, I hear you Valtrey Bottas hater over there. But it's true. Like you kind of almost, once you break into that,

then you can just have a kind of average season for the rest of that. Whereas why not? because people like Cheyuan Yu, Yuki Sunoda, DeVries, these people fighting at the back, like a 12th place finish for them is just as good as a Ferrari finishing third, fourth, whatever. So that's their achievement.

And then also you get to the end of the season and you can see how well people have done. It's a better representation of it. And you can see who the better drivers are as well. Yeah, why shouldn't we reward a really good 12th, 13th, 14th drive if that's all the car can actually do? If a Williams, if an album scores a 14th or a 13th, why shouldn't that be rewarded? That's kind of my massive question around that. I don't see too many drawbacks with extending the point system.

The top doesn't get changed. We've actually created this spreadsheet of how the points table would look if it was changed to the top 15. It doesn't change the top. Doesn't change the battle for the championship necessarily. You might have the occasional horrendous race. And I'll, you know, for staff, I might pick up a couple of points from 13th or whatever. But it doesn't change a huge amount, at least when we've actually looked at the comparisons of what this year, sorry, what this year as it currently is and then what this revised point system would do. I think it might over the course of a whole year change a few drivers, but then it just rewards these.

drives to 11th, 12th, 12th, 13? Yeah, I don't see the argument for not having a battle that these lower midfield teams can actually fight for because and also you've got to think that these drivers are battling for

and I know the top teams will look and know about Formula One a bit more but I think it's unfair that you kind of you look at it and go, oh, this driver finished last. or whatever in the championship. And I think George Russell is a great example when he was at Williams.

If you look at his points, if you look at how many 11th and 12 places he got, on paper, you go, oh, actually, he was a bit rubbish, wasn't he? Because he didn't score a single point. But that's not a representative look at what actually happened in that season. And why should it just be that you get, you know,

you only get a point when you're lucky enough that, a Ferrari and a Mercedes breakdown. So there's like a couple of extra points on offer. You should be able to be rewarded even when, you know, none of the cars break down. You should, you should be, you should have something to fight for because that's going to be more and more common now. And it doesn't reward everyone either. It's top 15.

There's still five places that don't score. And I think that that is a key thing here. And I'm also down for, you know, the top 12, perhaps. but I guess the main reason why this whole topic of debate has come up is because there are these very much top four teams in Formula One. We weren't necessarily calling for this last year, the year before, when there's a top three teams or a top two teams, because there is that element of it can change.

There might be an Alpine, an Aston Martin, or whoever at the time could score a point or two. But I think current Formula One, I guess the con or the question that could be asked here is, would this just be a knee-jerk reaction to the fact there are top four teams? And when we get to the new regulation changes, maybe we only have a top two teams and everyone else is fighting out for fifth and below. But then there's still loads of points on offer and it keeps it, it keeps loads of people there to fight things.

I mean, IndyCar offers points to everyone. And a lot of it is because it's a spec series that it remains close. but that is part of it that why the championship stays so close all the time because you're offering a big amount of points for winning and it goes all the way down the order. So you've still got stuff to fight for even if you've had a bit of a stinker of the race. You don't just pull the car in and go, I will retire. No, you know, we can get to 15th and bags of points or whatever.

And it could end up making a huge difference by the end of it. So yeah, I don't see. many cons with it personally because you just get more racing. So you mentioned IndyCar. Moto GP also score the top 15. Their point system goes as follows. It's 25, 20, 15, 13, 11, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 4, 3, 2, 1. Now, what stands out to me for that is not only is it scored down to 15,

but if we were to implement this into Formula 1, the winner gets less of a margin over second place. Of course, right now it's seven from 25 to 18. It's now 25 to 20 if we were to put the Moto GP system in. How do you feel about that, Tommy? That's an interesting one because it's something that actually got implemented to try and peg back Michael Schumacher back of the day because it used to be 10 points for a win, six points a second,

and then they changed it to make it 10 and 8. And a lot of the thinking behind that was, well, if Michael Schumack is going to win every race, then let's make it two points. so it closes up, but then, you know, you never know what effect it's going to have on it. I do like the winner being rewarded more. That's something I'm not a big fan of in the sprint that you only get one extra point for winning the thing than finishing second because that's not going to maybe encourage people

going for moves. But I looked at the Metagip point system and thought, yeah, it's pretty decent. it's a it's a good good amount i guess other options are to offer more points so more than 25 for a win and then you have bigger gaps between them but no i think the meta gp system is is pretty good and like you say we've worked out a whole championship table which will share in the video version uh if you have a look at and it doesn't change a huge amount and we'll link it as well yeah yeah if you want to have a look at yourself i think we'll be able to link or put it on social as well if not yeah we'll post on social we'll we'll put it on the

screen so you can have a look i guess you know the one thing is you know if you want you could extend the points to more than 25 as you say or we use the motor gp point system but just have 25 and then you have 18 for second and 15 13 11 10 9 876 5 4 321 so perhaps you just still keep that 7 point margin if if that is what people want and then it's sort of similar to what Moto GP is right now. Yeah, but I think it's few and far between with the gaps between the winners. I think the main thing here is offering the lower team something to fight for, which I, I think we've not really gone into the cons, but the only con that we could really think

of was a lot of people replying to your tweet about saying points of 15th or our YouTube community posts are saying that, you know, points should be earned and it should be this amazing thing. But I don't know. Like, is it, is it that exciting when Williams don't score a point all season and then get one? Like, I don't know. It's not like a, it's not like this amazing thing. I'd much rather Williams be rewarded for the races where Albin puts that car where it shouldn't be in a 12th, 13th or whatever and has something to show. for it. I think that's a lot more interesting than just never scoring a point and then, oh, they've got a point. Isn't that amazing? But it's kind of like, not really.

I mean, on the flip side, I don't, we love a disagreement. I would say that, for example, when George Russell scored his first points and you can see that he, in his art, like, he was crying. Like, he, it was such a massive moment for not just him, but also I'd say the Formula One community. we were so invested in the fact that he just was never scoring points and he kept falling short and oh my God, is he ever going to score a point? Obviously, he was going to score a point. And then eventually did and had these amazing results

that came out of nowhere. I guess we wouldn't have had that if we had points down to 15. And that in itself, yeah, points the argument is, points should be difficult to learn. Points should be a big thing. But is that just because it's ingrained in us? Is that just because like it's always been that way? and therefore points should always be a difficult thing to earn.

I'm very much set in my ways with a lot of things with Formula One, but I am also very aware that I think it could be as good, or at least in the long term, I think it would be as enjoyable to watch teams fighting it out for points past 10th place because I think it would add that extra level of value throughout Grand Prix racing and every event. I don't you won't get those oh my god he scored a point finally he got lucky and everyone retired and he got top 10 you won't get that but you'll have much more sort of ah this is a good fight for 12 things to watch and this is something that could change the championship for eighth place in the constructors or ninth place in the constructors because they are fighting for points and also how how much more racing is there at the back because they're a lot closer than the the big money teams at the front obviously red ball running away this year but even in the past like when it was Mercedes Ferrari Red Bull Miles Claire all the racing came from

you know a Renault, a force India, Salbers, whatever. They're all the ones scrapping at the back and they in the races you don't really care or they don't really show them if it is a battle for 13th. It doesn't seem as exciting because you know there's no points on offer. Whereas if there was, you know, someone's. going to defend a lot harder for that position because it could be, you know, it could change the whole Constructors Championship. And yeah, I think I personally don't see that that small thing of, oh, that's nice that a driver's

earned a point after a long time of not getting it is worth the pros that it gives. And also, I'd argue that nowadays with the budget. cap and I'm trying to close everything up. We might not see that as much again where you get one driver or one team that are so far behind and aren't going to score points for a long time. We know, we've seen every team already score a point this season, I believe. Yeah, we have haven't we? Yeah. Same. It's not as it's not as common. Now, I'm fascinated to hear what you think. So whether you're listening on audio, just send it in via social media or if you're on YouTube, just pause the video.

Type us what your ideal format for the points would be because I think that there won't be one right answer. And I think there are plenty of different variants that, that we could go down. So I'm fascinated to hear what you think. And I'm sure, to be fair, you've already typed that we're washed. And this is, you know, we should stick it with top 10 or maybe we should just have the top three scoring points. Who knows?

But I'm sure there's someone out there that believes every different possibility. Now, another con was around more teams being able to nick fastest lap point at the end by pitting. Was that something you saw, Tommy, that people say? I just thought that maybe some people would be like, oh, but then it gives a chance for someone in 15th to take the point away, say like a...

Good. Yeah, like more people can get a fastest lap point. I don't know. It's something different. It depends if you're on the... Is the fastest lap point, farcical or not? I still can't make my mind up whether I'd like it or not personally.

I like it. I think it's slot into Formula One quite nicely. It adds that extra small dose of drama, especially when Vestappen ignores team orders and just shoves a fastest slap in anyway. And also we are very, you know, we're being very generous to the top 15 if we think that Alfa Romeo is going to pit

and beat Max Vastappen's fastest lap these days. So, yeah, I guess as if there's a driver out of position that will chuck on a set. of softs, but yeah, I don't think that's neither here nor there. Okay, let's now move to what the championship will look like if we had this new top 15. So, by no surprise, Max Mastappen is still leading the championship by 51 points. Perez is second, Alonzo is third, 105 points he has. So he would have scored, no, no difference?

Well, I guess a slight difference in the sense of like how many. A couple of points here and there. Because this is with the Moto GP point system, right? MotoGP point system. The sprint race is exactly the same and one point for fastest lap that goes down to 50. Is there 51 points behind Vastappen? It's 53. 53.

All right. So a couple of points here or there. Alonzo's on 105. And you've got Hamilton on 98. But then as you move slowly further down, Yuki Sonoda. The absolute goat. has gone from 16th in the championship to 11th with 32 points. And that's where he belongs.

Because he's been consistent. He has had decent drives. He would have scored in Bahrain, Saudi, Australia, Azerbaijan, Miami, Monaco and Spain. They've got points in every race. It was scored every race apart from the sprint. Yeah, exactly. So you can argue, oh, you know, you're just saying it because you're a Yiki fan boy.

but should you not be rewarded for good results? And it's not Yuki's fault that, you know, the, he can only do so much of that alpha towery and get it to, to a decent place, especially when we said the top eight already locked out. There's not many retirements. So someone like Sonoda is the perfect example of showing that you're actually rewarded. Now, the entire championship table is almost identical. You've just got Gassely and Ockons swapper position,

but there'd be one point separating them, so really close. But yeah, Sonoda leaps right up the order, and someone that leaps right down the order is Nico Holkenberg, who goes from 12th to 17th. And that is because Holcombberg, in the current table, popped in a P7 and then hasn't been particularly great in any of the other races. so he'd go way down the order because he's not been consistent.

So it rewards, I guess the argument is it rewards consistency rather than a more, a more representative table of what's actually happening at every race rather than just a crazy race here and there. Also, as well, one of a big shout out to Valtry Bottas, who I assumed was going to get shafted by this, but no, 14th. in the championship and 14th again in this new one. Norris as well, I thought, may have got shafted a bit. He goes down one from 11th in the actual real table to 12th in this one.

Interestingly, Piastri is only one point behind him. Yeah. Which is pretty mad, isn't it? All those 17th places, Philando wouldn't have been scoring in points, whereas Piastri, all those kind of 12th and 13th that he's got would be scoring in points. So look, it's an interesting table. And, you know, maybe we do this again at the end of the year. I've got the table now to know how it works because the longer it goes in to the

season, the more difference I think we'll get at the moment. There's only really two drivers that have got a big, big change. But it'd be interesting, you know, maybe way later down the line, the whole bottom 10 is in a completely different order because there's so many. drivers finishing 11th, 12, 13th, but not getting anything to show for it. Apart from Logan Sargent, he will be the one consistent person in the world. He has four points in Bahrain, then zero from there on. And he is, yes, 20th on the table, seven points behind DeVries in this one, who is 19th.

But yeah, that is pretty much it, I think, in terms of chatting about this new potential point system, which is absolutely never going to happen, but we thought we'd throw it into the universe and see what people thought of it. Have you changed your mind after listening to our washed opinions? Or are you unsubscribing right now? Please don't. Please subscribe to the channel. If you haven't already, there are many of you that watch these videos and haven't subscribed. So please click that beautiful subscribe button. Tommy, what are your final thoughts? Justice for you, Gisunoda. That's it. Fair. I mean, fair enough. Yeah, I should have seen that coming, to be fair, didn't I? Well, that is it. Thank you so much. Let's know your opinions.

And we'll see you very soon for another piece of content. Bye. P1 is a Stack production and part of the ACAST created network.