P1 with Matt and Tommy - Why F1 NEEDS to scrap penalty points

Episode Date: April 5, 2023

F1 penalty points are a big topic of conversation after Pierre Gasly escaped a race ban after a collision at the Australian Grand Prix. Is it time they were ditched all together? Join us for our first London live show at Leicester Square Theatre THIS THURSDAY! There are just a handful of tickets left, so get your tickets before the sell out: https://tourlink.to/P1LondonTicketsFollow us on socials! You can find us on Twitter, Instagram, Twitch, YouTube and TikTok.***Please take the time to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your pods. It means a great deal to the show and will make it easier for other potential listeners to find us. Thanks!*** Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, everybody, welcome back to the P1 podcast with Matt and Tommy. Yes, we are back in the glorious, not glorious one month break. We are well and truly into the stages of having to talk about things that aren't completely and utterly race-related. However, this one, I believe, still is very topical and it's all about penalty points. and how, especially you, Tom, and you feel incredibly passionately about this genre, don't you? I do, I feel like a rant's coming,

but I saved it in the race podcast, didn't I, for this moment, so here we are. I look forward to it. I can't wait for that. But before we do that, I need to read out a five-star review. If you want yours read out, leave us a five-star review.

Tell us why, and we may well include it in the next podcast. This one comes in from Corey from Australia. Big F-1 fan for years. This is by far the best F-1. podcast. A great balance of cheek and F1 knowledge. The left or the right one. Matt and Tommy have great, they didn't say that. Matt and Tommy have great chemistry together and the knowledge to back it all up. Love your work. Highly recommended. Thank you so much, Corey. Thank you for the kind words.

And thank you for, because these five-star reviews aren't just for us to read out on here. It really helps the podcast move forward and allows for more people to join the P1 fan. So thank you if you have left your review. Okay. F1 penalty points. Oh, are you a fan? And I'm talking about you listening or you watching. Are you a fan? Yes or no? We did a poll, a YouTube community poll.

And I don't know how many votes we did, Tommy. How many votes did we do? How many votes were there? Not loads because it was only fairly recent. 16,000. Not loads. 16,000 people. Okay, so 16,000 people answered this poll.

10% said they like the penalty point system. 81% said it's okay but needs tweaking and only 9% of you said no get rid of it. Tommy, I feel like you know, you're the passion man for this particular topic. So I'll let you start. What do you think of it? Get rid of it. You are the 9%. I'm the 9%. Yeah, I will go into why, but I don't think it's working. I don't think it has worked. I think the Ghazly incident is something that we've mentioned a few times that I don't believe they would ever ban someone for the bad publicity. And I just don't think it works. I think it's far too harsh.

Formula one's so different a case-by-case basis. And people would argue that you don't get particularly great Formula One drivers nowadays because of money and stuff. But I think the talent pool is actually better from maybe the older days when you, you've got people in that could literally pay their way into a crap team like a Menardie or whatever, be 15 seconds off the pace and be a danger to everyone else. That's why they have the 107% rule. The 107% rule is still in force, but it rarely gets to be forced because no one's that slow. That is to those that don't know what the 107% rule is, Tommy.

I've no, I struggle to say that. The 107% rule, there we go, clearly. Yeah. So you have to be in 107%. of the poll time with your qualifying time, otherwise you're not allowed. So Sergio Perez, for example, wasn't in the Australian Grand Prix and he was allowed to enter the race anyway. Sorry, he wasn't in the 107% role in the Australian Grand Prix. Yeah, so he didn't qualify because he didn't set a time.

So he was out of that. Now, in the 90s, and when that rule was, was a bit more enforced, they had the power to go, no, your car is 15 seconds a lap, slower than everyone else, and you're going to be dangerous. Go home. Go home. Whereas now that's never the case. So they don't really need to enforce it.

But if they did want to enforce it, they could just do it on a case-by-case basis, not with this whole penalty points thing, and then sort of change their mind and go. And then as soon as someone gets close to getting banned, they're now sort of going, should we delete Gazley's points? Is it fair? Maybe we should change it. And it's just silly to me. I just think it's completely pointless.

I know they should get rid of it. Okay. Tom is absolutely popped off. Thank you so much for that, Mr. Co-founder. I don't feel as strongly about just completely and utterly binning it off. They have, of course, tweaked it already going into this season, have they not? And some of the more minor incidents now not accruing penalty points. And it's more to do with actual wheel to wheel racing. and those kind of moments giving you penalty points,

which makes a lot more sense than cutting a pit entry line or something, because that's the kind of stuff they're taken away, as far as I'm aware. So I think the penalty point system needs to be there in some regard. Of course, the case-by-case system you're thinking of for the 107% rule, that's what you're kind of doing, right? You were just sort of comparing how the 170-cent rule is used. Yeah, they can decide.

It should be the same as if there's a big incident, they can also decide. Roman Grojean, yeah. Now that was a very extreme incident, wasn't it, for Grosjeon, where, of course, he squeezed Hamilton and then caused an absolute car crash in the first corner of Spar in 2012. 2012. So, and he got a band, he got banned for that.

And that was over 10 years ago. My God, we are so old. So that was a case-by-case thing where F-1 went, wow, we look horrendous after this. We have to do something. and whether you agree with it or not, he was banned. This was before penalty points, just for those that didn't know, even existed. And it had previous turn one in a few incidents here and there, but that was more, that was the consequence of that one incident where they said,

enough's enough, you got to, you need to sit out a race mate. It's basically what happened. Yeah, exactly. So are you suggesting we go back to that? Yes. And I still think, I think Rojohn's incident, was harsh, but this is the thing for me, right? Pierre Gazley is on a lot of penalty points. He, in my opinion, is very lucky to not get any more, but it just shows that the drivers

aren't going to drive any differently just because they're on 10 penalty points and you could argue, well, they should do and if they don't, they get a race ban. But should you, like, should you get a ban for just mistakes? And then why haven't they deleted all the penalty points because we could have quite easily theoretically it could have happened and I don't think you know this is right but it could have happened it would have been extreme circumstances but you could have seen someone banned from Formula One for cutting the pit lane line six or seven times and then maybe had a big crash and they've got enough penalty points to be to be banned that's not that's not right right it's just

Stupid. Yeah, and now they've tweaked it, but they've still kept everyone's penalty points, which makes no sense. Because surely, if you change the ruling of it and you go, well, now this isn't part of that penalty points, you know, handing out, then they have to get rid of them. Surely it's a clean slate, we start again. Okay, we've changed, we've modified it now. So that in itself doesn't make a huge amount of sense.

I am of the opinion, if a driver goes about wiping people out four, five, six races over the course of, you know, half a season or something, something has to be done about that. And I wonder if it is a case-by-case basis, whether that would actually truly get punished, especially in this cost-cap era where teams cannot afford to have crashes just purely because of how much that would come out of their costs. So I don't think there's a hard and fast, perfect approach to this because they wanted just an overarching system that looked after. driving standards. Getting rid of it? I don't know. Because it's not just, is it just F1?

Because I feel like penalty point system goes throughout the whole of the FIA, right? Yeah, they've had it in F2 and someone did actually get banned because they've been bad. I think Regnathan got banned and someone else this year. I can't remember the name and I don't want to throw someone under the bus because I lack F2 wheel knowledge. But there was someone that did get banned fairly recently for two pretty major crashes. And for me, I didn't understand why. That's the one. Yeah, quite crazy incidents from what I remember and quite ridiculous things. But, oh no. Why can't they just do that? Mary Cordial got banned because he posted the TikTok of him driving at 180 miles,

glances an hour on a stretch of road. Roy Nassani last year got a ban. um there was someone at the third formula two driver was uh who i'm just trying to see who else there was um i'm sure there was someone this year but he got he got banned for a few ins i think it was he like sped in the pit lane or something and then crashed and then all he called well again that's the one right that's the one i was thinking of i actually did think that was them but i didn't want to throw their name uh it like and then it wasn't them so yeah um they called got banned and that's fine. You can look at a few incidents and go, yes, you've been banned. Why they need to like total up these points. I just think is a bit is a bit silly to me. I don't really like

it. I think especially because then you get into silly situations where you can do something really stupid, then do it five years later. And it doesn't matter because your penalty points are wiped and stuff like that. So I just think they just need to look at incidents that are worthy of bans and harsher penalties and just judge it accordingly. It is difficult. It really is. I think that the penalty point system definitely needs to exist from Formula 2 downwards because they are younger drivers, they're trying to make a name from themselves, and they could be very silly in the way in which they go driving. And we've seen some crazy driving standards over the years in in junior formula.

So I think that penalty points absolutely need to exist in those series. Formula 1, I guess, yeah, you look at it. It's the pinnacle of motorsport. Do you really need penalty points to monitor a driver's behavior? And if they're not good enough. Yeah, exactly. It shouldn't be an F1. It's a difficult topic.

It really is. I want to say, I think it was UGE Day, about 2006. They just got rid of a super license. because he did a stupid crash, he was absolutely awful. And they said, no, you can't race in Formula One. And for me, that's what they should do. Just simple as that, if someone's dangerous and a problem, because also you could get in a situation of penalty points

where they have someone absolutely awful. And then it's really dangerous. Like imagine this would never happen, but I'm just obviously talking theoretical, just to prove a point. Say McLaren, I'm thinking of all the teams that would do it, McLaren put in a competition winner for marketing in their Formula One car. They obviously have to get a super licence, but someone absolutely awful. 30 seconds off the pace, really dangerous.

They're driving around really slowly. You'd have to wait until they did enough wrong, which could be three, four races like to actually get, because if they're driving around slowly, you're not crashing into anyone, they're not going to get any penalty points. Technically, if they're 30 seconds off the pace, Tommy, they're never making it into the race because they haven't hit the 107% rule. Okay.

But basically, so while there's a danger to the rest of the field, and they could just go, no, you shouldn't be racing, this is ridiculous. But then does that put too much power in the people that are deciding that there and then, rather than having an overarching system where stewards and things can change and whatever? having that penalty point system is an easier way to understand it, then, oh, why is this driver not driving today? Oh, they got banned. I mean, it would be the same as going, why did they get banned?

Oh, well, they cut the pit lane three times and then had two crashes. Don't have a go at them. They've changed it. They have the points, which is very silly, but they don't have it anymore. Let's get to some questions, because I feel like we will arm an hour over this for about four hours. Lumi underscore Essence, what's the point of the penalty? system if they're not giving Gazley a race ban.

His incident was super similar to Sebs. I imagine that is Seb Canada going over the grass and blocking Hamilton. So he should have gotten a penalty by that logic. I mean, it was similar to Sebs in Canada in the fact that he blocked someone, but it wasn't similar in the fact that he also put someone in the wall, did Gassley, his own teammate. All Seb did was just cut the corner and was a little bit cheeky on the racing line. So yes, in every way,

This was a penalty, but we have to take into account there are other external factors, i.e. their teammates, there's ways in which you can talk to the stewards and whatnot when discussing these penalties, when it's between the same party. It always seems that way in Formula One that there's a more lenient penalty, if anything, when the same two drivers from the same team are involved. I don't think Gansley escapes a penalty, if that's anyone else. I think the FIA are backed into a corner and have to give him a penalty if there's anyone else but Ocon. Yeah. And also, I'm just 100% convinced they don't want to have the bad publicity of banning a driver and all the kind of, oh, because take away penalty points,

because if you look at the penalty points, you go, oh, he's had quite a few incidents. But I don't think, I don't think Pierre Gasley, yes, he's had his moments and he's obviously got enough penalty points by doing the odd silly thing. But is Pierre Gasly a reckless in a Formula One driver that he deserves to sit on the sidelines? Absolutely not. So many people, you know, and I know, I know it was a tough situation, but yeah, he's, he's gone off and he's made a big mistake and loads of people, like that restart was

absolutely crazy. So many people went off. There was so many much things going on, you know, Logan's. sergeant yeats into the back of someone and gets nothing. So people have made mistakes there. Pierre Gasly is not a extremely dangerous driver where he needs to be banned from a race. He's just had a few incidents that have totaled up. And that does show that maybe it's too harsh.

They have just kind of, they've put this place, they put this in place and not, Now it's got to the point where they need to follow through with it and go, well, you should be banned if you get these points. They've chickened out and gone, well, no, it seems a bit too harsh now, doesn't it? So we're not going to do it. And then they're not following their own rules. What, the FIA? Stop here.

Tommy, come on. I feel like there are pros and cons to this situation. The more I think about it, I go, oh, maybe it should be like that. And then you go, well, actually, maybe you just get rid of it all together. And as I mentioned earlier, I just don't think it's one of these ones where it's straight up. And 90% of people that voted either said it's okay or they like it. Obviously 10% was like and 81% was it's all right, but could need tweaking. Okay, Tommy, let's meet in the middle here, okay?

What can they tweak in order to make it better? Not full deletion. What are we tweaking to make it better? not it not being 12 points. Off the top of my head, I just don't think penalty points because this is something, I know they've removed the thing about,

yeah, like cutting the pit lane line line or something, but even something like science, I don't think he got any penalty points, but back in the day you did get penalty points for something like that way you had an incident and you get some penalty points. It's not malicious, it's racing, They're, you know, science hasn't purposely gone into the corner to wipe out his hero, Fernando Alonzo, and should get a quarter of the way to a race band because he's done that or whatever, a fifth of the way there.

It's just stupid. So I just don't think that maybe it needs to be a case where you have three strikes. And if you do three really dangerous incidents in a certain time window, or maybe you. even, yeah, if it's, but then, yeah, how do you argue that someone's learn and enough time's gone past, and it's just one of those things where you do have a dangerous incident? It's a tough call. How do you measure what really dangerous is, what, what just dangerous is, what just racing is, because Formula One has a natural element of danger anyway? So, so, that goes back to my point, of it's a case-by-case basis that they need to decide whether, you know, is that, that, is that,

that something really dangerous. For me, if I think of the dangerous incidents that have happened over the years, I'm thinking of like Maldonado driving into Hamilton on purpose at Spa that year, where you're using your car as a weapon. That should have been instant ban, gone, done. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Things like that are really bad driving standards that need to be looked at. a big crash that you've done something really stupid should be looked at and you should get a penalty

you know for for it and you know the penalty here is a grid drop for the next race 10 places five places whatever banning a banning a driver needs to be something really severe and the fact is that I don't think anyone in Formula One touch word will ever be bad enough that they deserve a race ban because you have to get through Formula 2, you have to get super licence points, you have to be a good racing driver, even the people that you can say are washed and terrible, are good racing drivers enough to be able to, you know, hold their own in the sport. So I just don't see that this penalty point system works because goes back to the whole thing of

Gazley is not a dangerous driver. He's not, he's done a few reckless things and he has, because that's why he's got penalty points. But banworthy, Pierre Gasley, no. It's interesting. I think as we continue to talk about this, I at least formulate more of an opinion because I think I was more on the fence about it.

You obviously clearly deletion. And penalties just in general, not penalty points. Penalties are enough of a deterrent for drivers to not drive like a complete imbecile, that the penalty point system in effect is really just null and void, because it is only there to make sure driving standards are good, but so are penalties. So why are we adding penalty points to it that don't really mean anything to the driver up until a ban? It's not like, all right, you get six penalty points and you get a three-place grid drop because you've done this many problems. But then that would surely then eradicate getting normal penalties because you've already.

So I think I'm now, I'm siding slightly more towards you now, Tommy. You'll be pleased to know. My renting has got the hour. I mean, you were the one that felt so strongly about this. I was happy to talk about it. And the more more you speak about it, the more you go, well, who is this trying to stop? Who are we trying to ban here? Gassley is not, as you say,

one of those drivers that has had three massive incidents. We've gone, wow, we're not sure about this guy. He could be a danger. He has picked up things, odd moments. And also as well, if the FIA start genuinely banning drivers, I think that in itself will be a bit of a negative, a bit of a pullback for Formula One and for the drivers because they just won't drive as hard, potentially,

if they're skating around the 8, 9, 10 points. I mean, Gassley is probably going, I'm untouchable. They'll never use me as a bit of a scapegoat here. And if they do, I think that could be a, yeah, I mean, if they're actually scared of doing it as well, they're clearly not in agreement with their own penalty point system if they don't want to give out a ban,

which is what the rules are right now. Exactly. They're disagreeing with their own point by not banning Gassi. And that's the most ridiculous thing is, I think it would be stupid to ban Gassley, but also I think they should have banned Gassley if they're the rules, because that's what they enforced. They're the rules they enforced.

And he's done something worthy of more penalty points according to their rules. So he should be banned. But I'm in a weird situation now where I'm like, well, according to their rules, yes, he should be banned. But I don't, I guess, I guess the thing is here, don't agree with their rules. Not that I don't agree with the enforcement. I obviously, yeah, disagree with the enforcement of it because they're not enforcing the

rules, but I don't agree with the rules. Sorry for that. That was a lot of rules. Take a shot every time you heard rule. Andrew underscore Tyrell 8 comes in with, do you think the FIA would actually follow through with issuing a race ban to a driver who's accrued 12 points? Or would they just find a way to cop out of it? I think the Pierre Gazley incident shows that they are trying to find a way to not do this.

I think they are desperately hoping Gazli's points reset at some point, but they're not for a little while. I have to Spain. So we've still got a few more races to go. And I'm also of the opinion that if Ghazly does yeat someone, he'll get one penalty point. So then he'll be one away. And then he'll get half a penalty point.

And then he'll get a quarter of a penalty point. This is the thing. What happens in the next race? If Ghazley, you know, we're at Baku for God's sake, like, ridiculous street circuit. It would be quite easy to have an incident there, particularly if we have those safety car restarts or we get another two-lap super sprint at the end

where there's been a red flag and they need to carry on and you just kind of slightly unaware and, you know, bump someone out. Do we then go, oh, there's another incident for Gassley and, well, sure and behold, he's not getting any penalty points. and then that goes for the inconsistency because then everyone that's accumulated penalty points at that point will be like, well, why have I still got my penalty points for one, an incident,

but two, you know, crossing a pit line. It's just stupid. I'm actually really, like, I actually didn't realize I was that passionate about this. Two things, Tommy, are passionate about in life. Holcomburg potentially getting a podium and penalty points getting deleted. Yeah, it's just,

it's just a stupid system. Like the more I think about it, the more it is just a stupid system. Okay. Yeah. You're going to, I felt like you were going to go again. You look like you were about to rile yourself up for another paragraph. One final question comes in from at LeBruce. We've seen penalty points given out for minor moments in the past.

Think Lando for his collision with Charles at Sao Paulo, basically a racing instant. What do you think points should be given for? I think it's a bit more, to be fair, it's not probably far away from what they've already got at the moment. So if we are thinking about penalty points staying, it's got to be for dangerous driving, things in qualifying, for example, where there's evidence that the driver's been told that the car behind is on a fast lap, they're on a slow lap. And if that causes a really dangerous incident, because I think qualifying is actually one of the points where you can have a really quite horrifying crash if both drivers aren't driving to their full potential. I think that's one moment.

I think obviously crashing into another car and it being definitely their fault that's a penalty point or two points but as we've sort of discussed in this whole thing is it necessary? Yeah I guess I have to answer this question as if penalty points are a thing because obviously I think they should go

so I'd say major moments that need to What is Frank doing getting by the mic calm down it's because lady's just got home and she's sat in the car waiting for Grace

to finish being asleep and Frank knows she's home so he's now winging at the door knowing they're about to come in at any moment amazing well try and get your point out or he's as passionate as me about penalty points one or the other so yeah

I guess I'd say a major moment. Okay, brilliant. That was it. Okay, we stopped it so that Frank doesn't interrupt anymore. Okay, well, that is our opinions on penalty points.

Let us know in the comments, let us know on social media, what you think with regards to this topic. Should it be deleted? Should it be tweaked? Or should it stay just how it is? Tommy, I know what your final thoughts are. I'm not going to ask you,

I hate penalty points, delete them. Is that it? No, I'll say, all those people that vary at 81%. If you're changed your mind now, remember, according to F1 Twitter, you're not allowed to. So I hope you haven't changed your mind. Once you have an opinion, you've said it.

That's it. You're locked in forever. Okay, thank you for that, Tommy. My final thoughts are, have a great day. Okay, take care. Bye! Frank's final thoughts are...

That was a good final thought to be fair, Frank. Frank, if penalty points are useless and a waste of time and should be deleted forever. No, he's one of the 10% that love it. Maybe he was getting annoyed that I was so rante about it. P1 is a stack production and part of the ACAST's creator network.