Pablo Torre Finds Out - A Heady, Heavy, Heavenly Share & Tell with Wyatt Cenac and Domonique Foxworth

Episode Date: November 9, 2023

Can magic mushrooms help you see God? Are parents more of a danger to their kids than the world? Are we creating a garbage patch in space? Plus: Courtside seats with Jesus, CrossFit vs. witchcraft, bunnies vs. predators, Master Splinter, and mattresses. Lots and lots of mattresses. Also: When we flush, where does the poop go?Further reading:God, Magic Mushrooms, and Me (Esquire)Childhood Independence Is a Mental-Health Issue (The Cut)Befouling the Final Frontier (The New York Times Magazine)Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/QUDvY5Ls_Eo Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out. I am Pablo Torre, and today we're going to find out what this sound is. We're all a bunch of bunnies. Yeah. And it's okay to be a bunny. It's nothing wrong with me. Dominique, it's okay to be a bunny. Give me your hand.

It's okay. Say it with me. We're bunnies. I'm a wolf. Right after this ad. You're listening to Draft Kings Network. Remember snarf? See, I didn't grow up on Power Rangers.

I grew up on Dundercat. Thunder, Thunder, Thunder Cuts. Remember Pantherar? The female one? No. Panthers are the black one, obviously. What am I thinking about? No, Pantera is a band.

Shetara. Shetara. I think that's it. Lionel. Lionel. Yeah, Panther was the black one, right? Skeletro? No, it's Panth.

Pantro. Oh, okay. Yeah. There he is. Okay. I mean. Look in black. That's the grayest black, dude.

I mean, who voiced him? Was it a black person that had to be? That's a great question. Look at him. Look at him. Look at him. Look at him. They made him bald.

Okay, let's look. Earl Hyman. Oh, Earl Hyman. Hyman's a little bit of a girl ball. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nailed it. You mean, have to fight you panthero yes i can't and i won't you must lionel it's the code of the thunder cats fight how would you describe what panthero looks like um um i mean i always knew him to be the black one so it seems like it's like what white people imagine a black person would look like if he was a cat

Is why I could a show up at some point? Who? I mean, this is all your fault, as we've established. Dominique has blamed me, habitual person who was late for having a... Your name's on the show. You invited us, and you have established a culture of apathy and time relativity. So, like, I cannot hold anyone who was tardy to a Pablo Torre event. A Pablo Torre party?

Yeah, any Pablo Torres party. Oh, yes, the Torres party. Yeah, any Torres party, I know that because you set that culture. Like your staff believes this, your friends believe this, I know. So whoever was here on time or not, it is a result of Pablo's behavior. Time is a construct, A. But B, Wyatt Sinak, explain yourself. I was on my way.

I voted. I don't know if I could say that given when this will air. As in whether democracy still exists by Thursday? I mean, yeah, that's... Who knew that just a small election would upend everything? That's right. Yeah, I voted, and then I was on the way to the train, and I ran into a guy that I had worked with years ago

and had not seen for years. And so it was one of those rare things of wanting to be polite and say hello to someone that you haven't seen that you like and not be rude and say, oh, I haven't seen you. I don't know what's happened to your life. You know, we went through a pandemic and there's a strike and all this stuff. I don't care about any of that.

I got to hop on the choochoo so that I can fuck around with my two pals on microphones. That's right. While we also help sell ball products. By the way, our bathroom is full of those ball products. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I was told I had to use three before I could walk into the studio.

It does smell like you've used at least. three. Yeah. I was like, I took a shower and they were like, no, it's just a part of the thing is everybody has to use, if you were sponsored by like mattress, they would make me take a nap before I walked in. Bleep that out. Did they pay for that?

No. Anyway. I mean, this is how you get a mattress to pay for it. You know bleep that again? Blip it again. Bleep what? Mattress or? That one.

Yeah. Yeah. mattress, a mrs, a phtrapedic, stu-a-chlorpeedic, sleigh-slipher. Slu-SLBer, yeah.

Dack Prescott and Justin Jefferson both love a sikumber bed. And so can you, when you listen to Pablo Torre finds out and use the code, PTFO 23. All right, so I've summoned both of you to this episode of Share and Tell,

a special in-person episode of Sherantel. Yes, my lord. You summoned us. My liege. My leash. The topic I want to start with is about God. And both of your faces indicate that you cannot wait to hear me pontificate about my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, which I say tongue in cheekly, but also literally, say with the credibility of somebody who has completed all seven sacraments in the Catholic Church. Baptism through, by the way, got married in the church.

I was at that wedding, yeah. Yep. You were kneeling in a pew. Shout out to churches everywhere. To churches everywhere. Because the article I was reading, which is an Esquire, Dominique, and we didn't know each other, Dominique and I that well back then. I wouldn't have made it. Very good.

It's titled God, Magic Mushrooms and Me. And the logline is simple, but complicated. There's a growing movement among religious leaders to use psychedelics like psilocybin to deepen their faith. The author attended a secret ceremony to find out whether it works. That's my favorite Jim Henson song. God, magic mushrooms and me. Jim Henson, proud terp. Is that right?

Yeah. Just the legacy of puppetry I didn't realize was so strong to the University of Maryland. That article, it made me think about how church and religion, which I have become a buffa Catholic about, could actually become more meaningful for me in the present tense. I haven't gone to church a lot in the last two years, but I just went on Sunday, not because I wanted to make it into content, although of course Dominique suspects that. It's because I was long story short, it was my anniversary, wedding anniversary, seventh anniversary, and I went to church with Liz to just sort of do the thing that I like to do sometimes, which is examine the thing that is bigger than our first anniversary. ourselves and reflect on where we've come in life. Did you walk into the church, the two of you hand in hand, and just point at people and say, we got married here.

We got married right here. This happened right here seven years ago. You're welcome. All right. Go on with your cataclysms? Catechisms that have felt cataclysmic as the church has been atrophying, as it's been eroding because it's not appealing to a lot of people who otherwise might act. actually have that same instinct of like,

I want to be a part of something that feels like it's speaking to me from a place that I can't understand. I'm sorry. No, I was going to ask you actually. You're the churchiest of all of us. Am I? Yeah, I mean, I go to church regularly. My wife is Catholic.

We got married in Catholic Church also, and the kids are doing all the Catholic things. I think that, first of all, it's hilarious that you want to make this about church when it's really just about drugs, just like everything else is in your life is. Like, let me find a way to talk about drugs. I went back to church, no. You saw an article and said, they're giving out drugs at church. And he was like, hey, where's the nearest church?

Let me get some of them drugs. The article is about how some priests have been experimenting with giving, with dosing, asp aspiring priests with magic mushrooms. So, I mean, I think those things are connected in some way. And what church is, for me, at least, it wasn't something that I felt like I needed or something that I wanted to go to. and it's not about believing being a true believer in religion, as much as it's about a necessary thing for most people that we don't do.

It's like a time to reflect, time to assess, a time to look back, a time to look forward and kind of reset yourself. And I think that's what I've come to see as useful for church. So like when you go to a Catholic church, as I do with my family, I mean, two, three times a month. Most of the time we get up in there unless it's a little too sleepy. But when you go there, they do readings, they do songs, and then you do like the communion stuff. I step to the side when they do communion.

I don't go take the little snack, the little sip. I'm not down with that. But whether all the stuff is factual that I believe or not, it really doesn't matter to me as much as it's the principles that you hear from just about every religion are consistent. And there are principles that I think it's important for us to reflect on sometimes and think about. and rarely do I go back at any point through my week, do I think back like, hey, what happened last week that I'm proud of? What am I ashamed of? What can I work on? What am I going to focus on next week? And I think church is like a helpful thing. If I could just routinely condition myself to do it without church, then I'm not sure that I need to do it in church. But being in church, it's someone who's talking to you.

And it's not like I'm in there thinking, you know what? God is watching me all the time. No, these are things that are important to me. And sometimes they say things about, current issues that I don't that don't rest right with me and sometimes they say things that but it's just a it's like a spark in my mind to and it's the same thing where I think some people need some help to get to a place to think about these things and that's where the psychedelics come into it. Yeah so why like for me I should be clear like my experience at mass on Sunday was not on psychedelics not on psychedelics but I was thinking the whole time about how this could help because what I want out of mass, which I tasted beyond the literal Eucharist, was the idea of, okay, I want to feel like,

gosh, I want to feel like there's something out there that I don't understand that I can appeal to. Because what I come to church with, of course, Dominique, are my fears. I come to church with fear. What I pray for is for the safety of my family, for things to go great. I come to church from a place of need. And it's a place of need that is by social custom, I'm not going to involve my cell phone. That's a huge part of the presence of the experience. But also, like, that's also what I turn to psychedelics for sometimes is I want to feel like there's something out there that is bigger than me, that I can't.

explain, but that hints that, even if I don't understand it, there's a reassurance in the vastness of it. I know it's why it's turn, but I'm a fan of this Godforsaken show, so I do know that you tested very high on a narcissist scale. And I also recognize that when I listen to you, I hear it. Like, did you not understand, you didn't hear the difference in me saying, I'm going to church to reflect on the way that I can be a better human and be reminded about the principles that I find important to me. And you're like, I go to church because I want shit. Correct. I tell God, watch my back and give me money.

I... And drugs. I was there to tell God that I'm still here with my hat in hand, hoping for the collection plate to pass my way. I'm sorry. You're networking with God. I'm trying to book God as a guest on this podcast. That's the most popular thing I've ever heard.

That hurts. It hurts because... I try to get court-sized seats with Jesus. Oh! I need to reflect on that. Yeah. Jesus, is it cool if I post this on Instagram? But okay, but that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that I would never do.

I would only talk about it on a podcast. I would never provide a photograph to play on the Draft Kings Network and or YouTube. But why, where, I, I don't want to box you out with my narcissism. I don't know. What is, what is this story feel like to you? I'll, I'll be honest. as the table heathen, there's a part of me that I don't have the same relationship to religion that you all have. I went to Catholic high school, and that was maybe where my sort of relationship

with Catholicism began and ended. There was religion. Like I grew up and we went to church and stuff like that. And once I got out of the house, I was kind of like, nah, it's not really for me. but to me the interesting thing about that story well there were two interesting things one was for everyone who was going through the experience in this story was just how much everyone had to take a shi and whatever their desire was for this drug to get closer the mushrooms the mushrooms to end some and some sassafras whatever there, whatever the desire was to get closer to their sense of faith or to God as a being or to their understanding.

To me, there was something that was just inherently funny with the idea that it ended with a, what sounds like, horrible shit. One person had diarrhea and had to go to sleep. Like, that's, do you understand how serious of diarrhea? it is when you say I had diarrhea and then I had to go lay down on drugs. Like that's this this wrecked me physically where I need a nap. It does feel like a religious experience in and of itself. The other thing that I feel like was the big takeaway for me was I feel like we, all of us as human beings, to your point of that,

thing of fear. We all fear the uncertain and we're all scared of uncertainty and we all look for different ways to either make sense of the uncertainty, find some sort of calm in the uncertainty, or find an answer. And the answer may not be the right answer, but it's just the right answer for right now. And I don't know, for some people that's religion, for some people that's alcohol, for some people that's drugs, for some people that's witchcraft. Witchcraft. Literally articles also recently about the rise in witchcraft. Yeah. For some people it's

CrossFit. It just runs the gamut of things. And I don't know, sometimes where I wonder is in that search for some certainty is that

are we just sort of blinding ourselves from dealing with the fact that, yeah, being a human being or being any living creature is scary as hell. And maybe you just got to live in the scariness. My experience in church is more like therapy than it is anything else where it's like a self-reflection. And it's not like I don't have answers. I'm not searching. Like it feels like Pablo is searching for some relief and like some trust and like to be able to relax.

Like, I don't feel like I need that as much as it's like I get an opportunity to be introspective in a way that I wouldn't on my own because I don't go to therapy. Maybe I should. I don't know. But I was going to say, I think therapy offers the same sort of thing. I think that introspection is you trying to make sense of an uncertain world, an uncertain world that, you know, there are the larger sort of global things, but also just the little day-to-day things of, you know, just being a human being that, like, yeah, a tree could fall in your backyard. And then it's like, well, now I got to deal with this shit. So, yeah, it's okay. You can be scared, Dominie. It's okay. I can't be scared.

It's okay. You can be a scared human being. You don't fail? The masculinity coming off of me? This is no fear here. You know, it's a fighter flight response. And Dominique's hands are clenched so. It's a fighter flight response.

And here's the thing that people don't talk about. Fight is still coming from a place of fear. No. They both are. They're both operating out of fear. Me, football man. They're still holding. You need a shirt that says me football man, me no fear.

I have one. But I do think that religion, God, has had a marketing problem. And that's why I was drawn to the psychedelics thing. Because the people who are into like, oh, I want to feel stoned and wacky. I think what you realize when you actually like do maybe sincerely, too sincerely, try psychedelics is the idea that I'm actually. seeing the world in a different way. And it enables you to imagine things that your rational brain does not permit.

And so this story about people shi-prolifically and then seeing things that remind them of a religious experience and making them closer to God, what that did was remind me, like, yeah, going at church stoned, going at church on mushrooms, I think that would get to closer to what Dominique is saying than I think it might. sound at first blush with a title like God matching mushrooms in me. I think it's actually about what if I was standing in a room engaging with something that I'm now seeing in a different way that does make me feel both smaller and larger at the same time. I mean, drugs are a performance enhancer, like to spar from sports terms. Like I think doing just about anything on mushrooms

is going to be a lot more intense. The idea that they need it for a religious experience is unusual and odd to me. I don't mean it as a judgment to say that it doesn't work, but it just sounds like a bunch of people who want to get high. Like getting high while I'm reading religious text is the same probably the same as getting high while listening to really incredible music. It's like you probably feel closer to God. Great sales pitch in that. I don't think that, I guess these things are separate to me. I read the article and it talked about how throughout history is a bunch of different times where people, through Christianity and many other religions, where you incorporate drugs into the religious experience. Yes, there's artwork that reflects as much.

Like I mentioned, it's an enhancement to anything that you are doing or an additive. Maybe it doesn't enhance the experience. It might make it worse. But church is no different from taking a nap, going to a concert, participating in CrossFit, watching a movie, listening to music, having sex, anything that you do while on drugs, the experience is going to be sling. slightly different. The idea that they're tying... Same if you do any of those things while at church. Oh, that'd be pretty impressive. Probably pretty fun. But yeah, I don't know. It's to me, the connection with the psychedelics doesn't mean that you are any closer to God. And I guess also, like, do you believe in God? So, like, right. Me going to church, I think would imply that,

like, I am a full believer. Like, I don't think much about it. Like, I don't consider myself a believer. Like, I don't think that there's, like, a God watching over us and he's going to decide where go heaven or hell. But that doesn't cross my mind at all. I don't feel like I don't belong because of it. And I don't feel like I have to like profess everlasting, lasting faith, even though they will say that you do. Literally. Yeah. Like, it's, it's part of this experience, the same way, like you mentioned CrossFit. Like, I can go to CrossFit and go do all the exercises, but you know what? I don't want to do no deadlift. That'll mean everything else in here, A, for me, you know? And it doesn't mean that there's nothing else that's worth while. We also don't want to put on knee-high socks.

And drag a tire. In the street. Yeah. And to your point about their marketing problem, I think molesting children is probably a real big issue. So that is a major thing we should discuss at the marketing meeting for the Catholic Church. That's why, by the way, Liz, my wife opted out of the church entirely because of that, only to come back later because of the larger picture things we're talking about. But here's also something, as you both have said, the church has a marketing problem.

Or as you said, God has a marketing problem. But is this a business God? even wanted to run. Like, there's an aspect of this where people are talking about, oh, I want to get closer to God. I want to, you know, like, whether it's taking a drug or if I go to church even more, like, I want to get closer to God. Does God want to get closer to you?

All right. I brought an article from The Cut by Catherine Jezer Morton. It's called Childhood Independence is a mental health issue. So before you start, I just want to. I give you credit for crediting the journalist. Oh, yeah. Which, you know, I'm not saying

that Pablo didn't do it. In a world where I was shamed for being late, if this is the world that... Shout out to you, Esquire writer. Paul Kicks. Heighter, excellent intentional detailed. ...Lead of Tybo. Gems everywhere. Paul Kicks.

God. No, no one likes my bad joke. Anyway. It was a story with a guy named Priest and a guy named Kicks. Yeah, it works. I like it. Thank you. Approved by the comedian. All right. So this article is about generally a helicopter parenting style that has proliferated America specifically and how it impacts the mental health of kids.

And I think we all recognize that as years have gone on, we've gotten a little bit more fearful and protective of our children. I imagine that we all had more freedom growing up than we give to our children. Wyatt doesn't have any children because I gave them freedom but Dominique's point this is what from their birth

you are free you're only going to fly little bird without me in the picture Wyatt is free of the neuroses that I prayed about at church Dominique this is the fear in large part that I was referring to as well so yeah I mean the article suggest that the kids, even if you like take your kids to the park and let them play with

other kids, the fact that you are there is like having a negative impact on their mental health, not allowing them to explore and build confidence and develop things on their own and challenge themselves. And I do remember being young and 10, 12 years old and I'd go get on my bike and leave and then I'd come back later. And like my mom knew the general, like I was going to the basketball court. I was going to my friend's Justin's house and I was going to highs to buy fruit drinks and snacks if I had money. We definitely would do very risky things. And on occasion, like young boys, we would build ramps to jump our bikes off of.

We would ride ridiculously fast on the wrong side of major roads. We do all these sort of stupid things that I are back in my mind whenever I want to let my kids roam free. And I do have to contend with, like, raising. kids with my wife and that she's a little bit more concerned about these things than I am. So we're at a point now where we let our oldest daughter go to like the farmer's market by herself and come back. She's 12 now. Yeah. And I've been advocating. What is she getting at the farmer's market? Well, they have lots of things there. Yeah. Brownies and whatnot. I mean, crepes. I don't care.

It's like I mean, that's just a different thing that like as a 12 year old, I didn't know what a crepe was. Yeah. Girls are different, man. But also I think kids, it's Today are different. Yeah, I got rich kids. It's frustrating. Farmers market eating as kids. Yeah, they do. They do.

But yeah, I don't know. I think it's the balance of when you're making decisions for a society, I think you weigh the overarching pros and cons and you recognize. And like, you could go back to like COVID where we're like, all right, in order to save lives, we all need to be locked down and get shots. there are some people who are like, well, a couple people going to die. And I think about that in this conversation also is like, yes. The trade-offs.

Yeah, it's not incredibly dangerous to let your kids go out and do certain things based on, like, statistics. How often is something going to happen to them? Statistically, you're more a danger to your kids than the world. Fair. But also, as these article points out, that if you coop up your kids in a room with you for that long, the kids become dangerous to themselves. Like self-harm becomes statistically a concern. But it's, and again, to be the sports person to tie in all the weird sports analogies is it feels a lot like you wanting, like a general manager doing the thing

that will most protect his job and not make him embarrassed. So like in the idea that there is a quarterback out there that everyone thinks is good, but you think he's not, you still have to draft him because if he turns out to be good, you're going to get fired. And the same conversation as here is like, all right, there's really slim chance that something's going to happen, like something horrible will happen to your child if you give them some more freedom.

But what if it does? It's something that you cannot live with and you can't imagine and you'd much rather create this other problem that will not be attributed to you. Like no one's going to come back 20 years from now and, like, man, sure I should have let them go to the farmer's market more often. That's why they're mentally depressed. And that's the decision that's going through your mind, whether it's that overt or not, you're thinking about it.

Well, and it feels like the thing reading that article, so much of that fear feels like it is the outside perception of you as a parent that if you did give your kid a certain amount of freedom and something terrible happened, that from the outside, all of those other parents will look at you as somehow morally. or some kind of you're corrupt in some way. Nothing even has to happen. It's what the article suggests. It's like you don't have to give them freedom and something happen. If you give them a certain amount of freedom, the article suggests that there is an embarrassment that comes with you being like a lazy laissez-faire parent.

And even if nothing's happened, they're like, you let your seven-year-old go to the playground by themselves? Well, I did not appreciate this until we had Violet, who was now three and a half. The insecurity. What's our favorite bodega to go to by ourselves? Have either of you ever watched that Netflix show old enough? No.

No. I feel like I would be curious if you were to watch it. Oh, this is about the kids who like get to wander around town. They take like three-year-olds and they just follow them around with a camera crew, but the camera crew is kind of far away. And the whole idea is they give the kid a mission. And it's like, you need to go to the bodega and get like, Incredible.

And get some oranges. I'll be watching that. It sounds like an ethically compromised reality television show. Aren't they all? Well, it's a, it's, I don't think they, there's no way, I feel like when it came out, the thing that people said was there's no way you could do this in the United States. It's a Japanese reality program. And yeah, the whole thing is like, you just watch these kids and they're tiny.

And they, there's a certain aspect of them where they seem very excited to good. go and do this thing. Oh, Violet would love this shit. But then are immediately kind of terrified of like, well, I don't actually know where the store is. And the reality in watching it, and I don't know if this, I don't know if this is the idea is your show. I don't know how much of this is you're showing parents. Look, if you send a three-year-old out and they're just wandering by themselves, there are enough strangers who they can go to and say, like,

store and then someone will be like, oh, yeah. And they're like, why are you by yourself? And they're like, I'm making a reality show. But I feel like the parental instinct, Dominique, is that a three-year-old encountering a stranger is the actual nightmare. It's like you don't want them to wind up in a van now because you've encountered this stranger. And so for me, what I underrated before having Violet was the insecurity of how you're

supposed to parent your kids as judged by every other parent. There is a great vulnerability, I think, because no parent, if they're being honest with themselves, actually knows, like, how to do this the right way. Parents love a forum. Parents love commiserating at a playground at any event. Parents love, to this article's point, they love almost performatively, exasperatingly, proclaiming how tired they are and how hard everything. is. And all of this just adds to this notion of we are supposed to be stressed out helicopter parents who are worried all of the time. Yeah. I think back to like me growing up and I don't, I have a hard time imagining how my parents did it. And I think part of it is because they did it differently

with me and my brother. And I will say that I think what I've come to understand and accept and it allows me to sleep, rest a little easier is I don't have as much influence as I think I do, positively or negatively. Like, the kids are kind of who they are. And the best thing you can do is stay out of the way and try to keep them safe. But one thing that I've also, like, just learned in general in life and this really helped the kids help illuminate this to me is people don't learn from being told things. People learn from experience, no matter how old or young they are.

It's a rare skill, a rare skill to have someone tell you something from their experience, and you actually have that impact the way that you go about your life. And so I realize with my kids, I tell them things often. And I do expect it to resonate, but I am lenient with them when they touched the stove, when I told them not to touch the stove. Because I recognize that that's how they're going to learn. and as stressful, as scary as it is, just try to keep them alive.

Make sure whatever damage they do between now and the time when their brains are fully developed that it is not debilitating. But also to your point, there's you telling them the thing. It's not preventative. It's on the back end of it.

It's if you're telling them, oh, don't touch the stove. If it's hot, yeah, they're still going to touch it. And when it's hot, that's when they are like, oh, right. He said it's going to be hot. I understand it. Versus if you told them nothing and they touched it, they might think, ah, that was hot.

Is it always hot? Is it like they, like, you're just giving them, like, you're basically giving them information for when they experience it to learn. Well, you're letting life tell them on your behalf as a parent. I told you so. The problem is that I would like. that to be some goodwill in the bank. It's like I'd have told you 400 things in a row that's been proven right. Or 401, just take my word for it. Right. Remember I told you the stuff was hot? It was hot. Remember that? Yeah. Remember I said wear a jacket? It's going to be 30 degrees

today. And you said, I don't do you know a jacket. And you were freezing cold. Remember that? I love... So next time when I tell you to do some shit, do that shit. I love Dominique wearing his tie sleeve drilled up in front of a PowerPoint presentation of the 401 things he was right about In front of his three kids. Credibility, man. I feel like we got to get a little bit lighter today. It's been very heavy. Not for me.

Not for me. The childless non-church going. It's been fine. I don't know what you're talking about. I will sleep well tonight. What are you bringing to us, though, Wyatt, today? So today I read this article by, Jamie Green of the New York Times.

It was the headline is befouling the final frontier. As humanity rushes back to space, we seem to be repeating some of the mistakes we've made on Earth. And I found this to be an interesting article because they're talking about how there's so many companies now, Deloitte being one of them,

which I didn't realize Deloitte is in the space game. Right. accounting firm. Yeah, but they're talking about how all these businesses have been launching satellites in the outer space for business reasons and they view it as this kind of open landscape where, you know, investment opportunities are as endless as space itself. But the danger and the fear is that we've launched all these satellites with no regard for the future consequences and we're already seeing bits of it where, you know, some satellites have collided, and so there is this great fear that we're doing to outer space what we've done to the ocean,

which is one day there will just be a garbage patch in space, and we as humans are the fish eating that garbage. And so I don't know. To me, it feels like, it does feel a lot like, the ocean. It's like, yeah, we polluted the shit of the ocean in our desire to kind of like move faster and expand our horizons and expand our bank accounts as businesses and countries. And we're just kind of transferring that to outer space. And we're just, we're just penning ourselves in on two garbage islands. I thought this was supposed to be lighter.

Yeah. It's so much lighter. The frontier analogy, um, as it's pointed out in the piece, suggests something that I don't think is meant by the people who present the frontier analogy and that any other frontier that we've had in American history or forget American history in history, we've befouled it. And I guess we should just be fortunate

that at least we haven't found any aliens to kill or enslave, which is like traditionally what happens when you move into a new frontier. at the pursuit of profits. Yeah, we convert them to our religion. Yeah, exactly. It's a scary thought, I think, going forward,

because to me, this piece is about capitalism. Yeah. And it's about to go back to the ocean analogy. It's about the water that we live in. And the water that we live in is one that excuses, not only excuses, but promotes the pursuit of financial gain at all cost. Speak it, my brother. The expectation is that we live in a balanced ecosystem

and that it's okay to be 100% predator because the other parties in here are as strong and to defend themselves. But our ecosystem seems to have been fractured sometime around the early 80s, late 70s. And from that point forward, the predators have gotten stronger. And at one point, the predators were expected to be, or at least not the predators.

The ecosystem felt more balanced. It felt like the people, so to speak, had as much power to advocate for the environment, to advocate for public health, to advocate for workers' rights. And now it feels like we've taken a lot of the protections away from the people. So in this analogy, the predators being sharks, there's really no coral reef for us to hide under. There's no friction. There's no way for us to protect ourselves. and it feels like we're hurtling to a place where it's going to be bad for all of us.

And it's nothing that we can do about it. Well, but is it that or is it that? And I agree with what you're saying. But is it that there are more predators or is it that the predators are less benevolent? Because there's an argument to be made that, you know, the Dutch East India trading company wasn't like, you know, they weren't thinking about like how to be ethical to everyone. And they were just thinking, they were bringing it back in a way where they were saying, well, for us and for even for the serfs in our world, we like, we'll take care of them a little better than we will take care of, you know, these brown people who we will happily exploit. We're bringing it back home in a way where we're a little more benevolent where it feels like today it is, you know, a lot of the billionaire saying, well, no, we can exploit.

We can exploit brown people. You know, Elon Musk will happily say like, okay, Tesla, we can exploit every African country that we're going to mine cobalt and every other product we can and we'll exploit that resource and exploit those people. But also, we can exploit those people at home in our factories. And we don't care what these people look like, whether they're brown, white, or in between. I'm only looking out as Elon Musk for Elon Musk and my children who are named after math problems. So that's why I use the ecosystem as an analogy because it's not my expectation that the sharks will become benevolent.

The point that I was making was there was a time, or at least there felt like there was a time where the momentum of society was moving in a direction in that the protections and the power of the proletariat was such that the ecosystem balanced itself. And through America, at least American dominance of the world combined with lawmakers, decision making and frankly, marketing, marketing to the idea that American exceptionalism is about hard work and bootstraps. Like, I think that has ripped the protections. and so I never have I mean I've never in my life imagined a society where we can trust the wolves but I would imagine a society where the rabbits had burrows to hide in you know and had protection

and numbers and we it feels as though we don't have that and we're we're exporting that to space now that we've already exported it to every else everywhere else on the planet yeah because we're the predators right like I think I think the idea here the unifying theory of all of this is in the name of progress, we will do all sorts of shit that we will only think about later, if at all. And I think what I'm, it's the question of like, when I flush my toilet, where does the poop go? Like, we never really think about it.

And of course, I'm not saying that we should abolish the sewage system. I'm just saying that all of our waste. It sounds like that's what you're saying. Publatory finds out abolish this, abolish the sewage system. You got against Splinter. You know what? My great Asian American ambassador. Master Splinter.

I'm going to be honored on this program of nowhere else. But I believe... Did Splinter... I thought Splinter was a New York City rat. Splinter kind of seems like he's a racist doing yellow face. I think Splinter was a New York City rat. He was colonized by the ooze. If you want to decolonize Master Splinter, that is a reboot that I'm here to discuss.

But I believe the question of like, okay, progress means that we can pollute everything because we're trying to, you know, spread democracy or grow humanity's hopes for a multi-planetary existence. What it does is, it's very funny. It leaves even the final frontier as like quotidian and as polluted and as familiar as any coral reef or inner city area or Native American land. That means black inner city. That's right. That's right. Urban, urban areas.

The community. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to step on the shout out to Native Americans who have also suffered, my bad. But I think the point is, in all of these people who have been, like, stepped upon by progress, we are turning, like, I don't know, our alien encounters into the same thing, where it's like, you know what it's going to be like? It's going to be like seeing a bunch of trash just floating around. Like, literally this article is about, we are releasing so many satellites into the. air that they're going to bump into each other. It's going to be harder to see the night sky and space. Right. They're already saying it's hard, like from the Hubble telescope, that it's harder because of the Starlink satellite system is making it harder for us to explore outer space.

And that, but why, that to me is like, that is humanity in a nutshell. We will take the most, again, vast and incomprehensible setting, seemingly unconquerable, and we will conquer it using our and it will become like everything else we have touched less less magnificent in the name of progress but i also think of just thinking about two things that you something that each of you said which is i think you know you you were saying pablo that we're the predators and i on one on the one hand i'd argue we are the bunnies we are bunnies who have been told we should be predators right and And it's easier to tell us to be predators because the actual predators are those business, those sort of hyper-capitalist business people who say, ravage it all for my own wealth. And when I think about the role of government was for such a long time, it was the bunnies putting safeguards against the predators.

and by the predators then saying, no, no, you're a predator too, you're a predator too. It's much easier to say, hey, take these safeguards off. We need to stop being fooled by predators into thinking we're predators. We're all a bunch of bunnies. Yeah. And it's okay to be a bunny. It's nothing wrong with it.

Dominique, it's okay to be a bunny. Give me your hand. It's okay. Say it with me. We're bunnies. I'm a wolf. No, you're a football bunny. I'm an alpha wolf.

You're an alpha bunny. Alpha bunny. Alpha bunny. The teenage mutant ninja turtles, we were talking about them. They're f***ing turtles. They're not predators. Not at all. They're turtles.

They're teenage turtles that should just eat pizza and a rat should trust them to go out into the world and do whatever the fuck they want. I've seen the most recent Ninja Turtle movie and the funny thing about it is a lot of the, or the inciting incident in that movie is that movie is that. that Master Splinter doesn't want to let his kids explore the world without him, and they end up doing it. Yeah, he's a helicopter parent. He's a helicopter dad because he doesn't trust the world because New York people are mean. Master Splinter belongs to Facebook groups where he shames other parents.

Oh, 100%. I don't realize he's a rat. Which is also the real indictment of Facebook is there are a bunch of Park Slope parents who are like, this Splinter guy is really on to something. Like, I agree 100% with what he says. And then they're going to invite him to one of those Park Slope parent groups, and it's going to be at some like bar somewhere and this rat is going to walk in

and they're going to be like, what the fuck is this? And they're going to be screaming and jumping on tables and he's like, no, no, it's me, Splinter. Like we were in the Facebook group together and they were like, never meet your heroes. I like how they accept that he's named Splinter because some Parkslow parent also separately named their kid Splinter.

So at the end of the show, we talk about what we found out today. And I found out a lot. I don't want to go first so Dominique I found out that the Thundercats have a clothing line and I need to cop me one of these fresh

Panthera varsity jackets that Wyatt is clearly right Wyatt is wearing a varsity jacket Don't tell him, go to YouTube, watch it That's true. Oh yeah, look at that. Oh, marketing. That's salesman's I was telling you not to explain it to the audio listeners. Oh, you want to tease them. Get your ass on YouTube.

Just the presence of an abstract panthero jacket. Yeah. And then maybe that inspires when they see it, and either it inspires them to buy their own or it inspires some young capitalist out there to make panthero clothing line until they then get sued by whoever owns the Thunder cats. But it's ask for forgiving.

not permission. I own the Thundercats. Oh, well, that's... You should do more with them. You should start the sweatshop. Also, I just want to say, I always thought Tigra was kind of black, too. Oh, really?

Yeah, I thought Panthro, Panther was for sure black. Tiger also was like, oh, yeah, I can see Tiger. Tiger didn't seem white to me. Yeah. Huh. So maybe Tiger is brown. I always saw Tiger as, yeah, Tiger. They do spell it with the Y.

It's a very black spelling. of tiger. Yeah. I mean, I'm, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I'm, I, I, I, I'm, I, I, I'm saying, I, I, I'm saying, I, I'm saying, I'm a white person, oh, white person, he was, white, he was, white, this is like a Mickey Rooney situation. This guy was, breakfast at Tigris. I learned that any religious experience that involves psychedelics is really going to jack up your toilet. And if you are like a religious professional who is trying to convince other religious professionals that there is a value to psychedelics in the religious experience and you invite them to your home.

make sure you have enough toilets. Reading that article, that was the biggest thing. If there was a run on toilets, would they be prepared? Because it seemed like there was one happening. Were there just religious professionals out in the backyard, just pooping, pooping and seeing God? What I found out is that I'm going to have to approach how I go to Mass very different. next time. First, because I don't know if I'll be allowed back in after a why it just said.

And number two, because when I confess my egocentrism, I now have this test, which I regret mentioning on a previous episode of this podcast, that will absolutely be thrown in my face by my friend Dominique. Sorry, Torres. This has been Pablo Torre finds out, a Metal Arc Media production. And I'll talk to you next time. Thank you.