Pablo Torre Finds Out - Enter the Dungeon: An IRL Showdown with Mark Cuban on Kawhi-Gate

Episode Date: October 14, 2025

After tweeting 17,053 words in defense of his fellow billionaire NBA owner, the most polarizing member of Team Ballmer is back — in-studio — to confront all of Pablo's most burning questions: Why was Kawhi Leonard's deal kept so secret? When did the Clippers really know? Just how screwed was Aspiration? And what the hell do Cuban's Mavericks and the Knicks' Jalen Brunson have to do with this scandal?• Part I: The Richest Owner in Sports, the Silent Superstar and the Rotten Apple Tree• Part II: Team Ballmer vs. Team Sh*tting Bricks — an Argument with Mark Cuban• Part III: The Mystery Investor, the No-Show Payday and the "Smoking Gun"• Part IV: Steve Ballmer, the Other Cuban and the $118 Million Infusion• Part V: Steve Ballmer's "Inconceivable" Donation, the $20 Million Guarantee and a Head on a Spike(Pablo Torre Finds Out is independently produced by Meadowlark Media and distributed by The Athletic. The views, research and reporting expressed in this episode are solely those of Pablo Torre Finds Out, and do not reflect the work or editorial input of The Athletic or its journalists.) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out. I am Pablo Torre, and today we're going to find out what this sound is. Kudos to you for finding your sources. No issues there. The conclusions you came to, shi-on, Steve Balmer, and that was wrong. Right after this ad. Yay, there he is. It's a dungeon in here.

Welcome to the dungeon. Good to see, man. Thanks for having me. Thanks for coming in. Yeah, of course. Water, bathroom, coffee. bathroom. Smelling salts. Yeah.

Hopefully not. Even though I haven't got my sleep, I'll take it. I was going to say. Good. Patrick, nice to me. I was going to say, you're a wildly busy person. This is a lot of fun for you to do this for us. Yeah, cost plus has been driving.

Yeah. Just the pharmaceutical industry, you know. Yeah, just little things. Casually trying to upgrade. Trying to change health care. Why not? Test, test, test. That's where you want it lined?

Yeah, if you could. Yeah, if you could. Yeah. Look at that. Double. Double fisting. Double fisted. Double fisted.

The only way you roll, Pablo, I know. Just the finest. The most luxurious. Just for reference before we start, this dial is for your own voice. And the second one is for Pablo's. Turn down Pablo, turn up mine. Look, I promised over email this would be respectful. I totally...

Just do your thing. Yeah. Go where you want to go. Easy peasy. The thing I want to start with is to say thank you for giving me the line that now leads my resume. Which is a great podcast entertainer, great acting skills, but in terms of getting to the real, real, not so much. There you go. I'm here to oblige. I want to do this in a way that's probably, hopefully, a little different, a little more fun than like Frost Nixon.

Okay. I actually just want to understand, like, your life right now. Uh-huh. I mean, you're in New York. Thank you for being here in studio formally. Why are you here? going on? Like, how am I sitting in? The health care conference for 32BJ is a union and they work with a variety of unions and

organizations. So I came in to talk about what we're doing with cost plus drugs.com to reduce the cost of pharmacy, to change health care, to help guide them as they negotiate new contracts, just the basic stuff. So I had it on the schedule for a couple months already. Just the basic stuff. I wasn't sure it was like, was this stop in New York part of your larger plan to eventually become the chair of the Securities and Exchange Commission. Yeah, right, that was my goal all along, right? You got me. Pablo finds out all the time.

Finding out all. But you did want to be SEC chair for Colorado. No, I had no interest in being an SEC chair. You said it at one point. No, that was me fucking with Gary Gansler because I thought he was an idiot. Oh. Well, this is why I asked the follow-up questions. Right, that's what you do.

But some of the bio for people who are, it's funny, again, for me to be like, By the way, I talk to Mark Cuban a lot these days, but for those who are not familiar with your Uvra, minority owner now, Uvra. What does that even mean? Your body of work. Oh, my body of work. It's a little French. I'm trying to class you up.

There you go. I need all the help classing me up as I can get. No, look, you're the minority owner of the Dallas Mavericks. 27%. We've established that. Also, you co-own a major league pickleball team. Right. The Dallas Flash.

Yeah, did they change the name to Flash? Are they the Dallas Flash? I don't even know. I did as a favor to a friend. But I like pickleball some. It's fun to watch it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Your Dallas Flash, that's right.

And, you know, you mentioned great acting skills. Great acting skills. You see me in play Dirty here recently? I watched it this week. What? How was the steak? Uh, fine. Do I...

The lady of Ointaro. I'll honor. And you are... Too patient. Where is she? Mark. Walbert, grandishing a firearm at a white tablecloth restaurant in front of you and an associate? Does you have any concept who the f*** you're talking to?

You're not answering my question. I don't have to, moron. I'm one of the most important people on the planet. This isn't some rat infested alley. You're out of your league. You're dealing with a different class of people now. What a smirk. You know how long ever you... The best part was Mark Wahlberg was not there when we were shooting it. Oh, that was...

So that was all acting. That's just me putting myself in the moment. A method smirk. Yes. The fear. The smirk. There's just a zillion things I actually do want to ask you about. I want to get to, at some point, like Dallas and Mabbs and Luca, if that's okay, at some point, at the end, maybe.

But the reason, of course, you're here is because you remain by far the most devotes. most famous, most polarizing, most public member of Team Bomber. Yes, sir. As you have come to call it. Do you know how much you have tweeted about this story in my reporter? Not really, no. You have sent 160 tweets. Most of them were just little tiny responses.

A couple of them were articles. Yeah. The one time was like the 4,000 words or whatever. You typed a total of 17,053 words in 36 days. A lot of that is chat GPT generated, but yes. I suspected that. I feel no less insulted by that. But nonetheless, I'm here to confront you and the robot.

Please do. And I just want to try to keep this accessible, as always, to like the general audience. So I guess the conversation, which I want to begin here, starts with a simple question. Why do you think the sheer existence of the aspiration sponsorship deal with Kauai Leonard was never announced in any way through a press release or anything? ever. The deal was signed, if I'm remembering correctly, April 4th, the 22, but it was dated April 1st. March 30th was a much bigger announcement, and they didn't want to step on each other. This is the first reason. Do you know what that announcement is? Please.

Oh, I thought you would know. No, no, no. What announcement? Oh, that's when they announced their deal with the Boston Red Sox, which was an $80 million deal. And that's where they were going to get their logo on the field right by the batters box. Not bad, but on deck circle, all that stuff. So it was an $80 million deal. Rule number one of marketing, when you're getting PR and you've signed a big deal, you don't step on it.

And so once I saw that they had done this big deal and realized how big it was, it made perfect sense why they didn't announce it then, right? And then after that, the people who had done the deal, when I shouldn't say the people, because Joe Sandberg did the deal, but they changed over the focus of their business. And as best we can tell, no one wanted him there and no one wanted to do the deal. And so there was no reason to announce it. That's my perception. Well, so just the Red Sox deal, we mentioned that in episode one of the show.

I'm glad you're bringing it into this context because it was another deal, another real sports team that Aspiration got into business with, of course. So let's say that Aspiration didn't want to announce this. Kauai didn't want to announce this. No one wanted to announce this. No, no, no, now you're putting words into the system here, right? So there's a difference between making the right marketing move, right? So you just signed an $80 million deal with the Red Sox. And the Red Sox come out and say, like the Clippers did, September of 21, so that would be six months earlier or whatever, right?

That how important the whole carbon credits thing was and conservation was to them, right? So a big part of the Red Sox deal was very similar to the Clippers deal. In fact, they looked, I'm going to use my bet. In fact, they look very similar to each other. I'm trying to. I'm going to at you. I am with you. So they're very similar to each other.

I've seen hundreds of emails with the Red Sox and aspiration. The premise here, again, is we're zeroing out the carbon footprint. Right. So it was very important to the Red Sox like it was the bomber. So nothing unusual there, right? So the question becomes, right, why did the marketing people not do anything with Kauai? Well, on one hand, that's the question you asked me, right? No, no, the question actually was simpler.

It was why did no one ever say that this deal existed at all in any way ever? Well, first of all, we don't know that for certain. I have never seen anything. I've said this for five episodes, and no one's ever provided a counter argument or a factual correction or evidence. Two ways to activate the deal. One is like you're expecting. Let's do the tweet, the things that were in the contract that he was never asked to do. I actually just want to be very clear and specific here.

I just mean they announced with celebrities all of the time. We signed Leo DiCaprio and we signed Drake and we signed Robert Donnie Jr. and Orlando Blumen, Indie Crawford's North. When did they announce all those things? All in this time period. When did they announce those? Is your argument going to be that by the time they signed Kawhi Leonard to a deal that was four times larger than everyone else combined in that celebrity roster, they had decided to no longer care about celebrities? No. My point was they were not profitable, but they were fully and well funded. in 2021. And they were run with the goal of having a consumer product, the credit card from Aspiration

Bank. And what you do with the consumer product is night and day different than what you do with a B2B product. Right. So making those announcements make perfect sense. Now come April of 22, they were in deep shit, right? And as you know, and I think some of the folks have told you that the conversation, because we know Uncle Dennis incorporated KL2 Aspire, I think it was called, in November of 21. So they had been talking for a long time and it had been delayed, obviously, for a considerable period of time.

So the fact that it was delayed is one indicator. Because if they were really excited to sign the deal and use Kauai, the marketing team would have been pushing. Let's get this done because we really have a lot of places for him to use. Right. The opposite, of course, happens, right?

Marketing people... Didn't want him. The CMO doesn't know who Kauai Leonard is even. Right. Right. So the question is, why was there a deal? No, no, I think the question is still, why, just to keep on the first question, why past April did no one mention that they had signed Kauai Leonard at all? Because they were in a different business at that point.

Not as of that month. Yeah, if you look at their numbers from September 30th of 2021, the last real numbers they had that they published. So I guess what I'm saying is what we agree on is this was a bad deal for aspiration to sign as of April 2020. Not necessarily, right? So here's what you haven't discussed at all yet, right? And that is activation. And I'm not talking about traditional marking activation. So you've been to the Staples Center, right?

Mm-hmm. Right. So you know, here's the court-level seats, and then a lot of people go into the tunnel. And they have that club that's there, right, where all the celebrities hang out and everything. And then the people who buy the court, the front row seats, have access to that. Correct? And they see the players walking through, and it's not unusual because it's happened to me. I'm sure it's happened to you where people, fans right there that have come from the court

will stop you and take pictures, introduce you to customers, da-da-da-da-da-da. We have no evidence one way or the other, but I'd be willing to bet that a dollar to a dime, right, that Joe Sandberg took full advantage of that and was able to use Kauai just to take a picture to say hello, just like I've done a thousand times with the Mavericks, right? Oh, we signed a deal with this sponsor. Hey, Mark, a sponsor's in town, or, hey, market, sponsor is going to be at the game where you take pictures with them. Sure. Sure.

Easy, piz. right, just have them in the tunnel before, half time, or after the game. Easy access. So when I talked to people, the one person, two people I know, but one person I talked to at, that worked at aspiration, they said, yeah. I love how you've been doing reporting, by the way. Yeah, just because they reached out to me, right? I hear about them reaching out to you.

Yeah, I know, and I know. And I said, I was fine with it, right? Yeah, yeah, and likewise. And so it's just normal business, right? So the issue is that the guy that's going to, one of the guys going to jail, Joe Sandberg, right? He obviously was the one that did the deal because even in your Twitter, It said Joe is slow rolling the deal. No, he said to Joe from Uncle Dennis that Mike, the lawyer was slow.

Yeah. General Counsel was slow rolling the deal, right? That it was obvious that Joe Sandberg had signed. So the value proposition here where we disagree, and we don't really have detail one way or the other, but where we disagree is the value proposition wasn't necessarily to the marketing people at aspiration. It was to Joe Sandberg specifically. Why do we disagree about that? Well, because I think that's where he utilized Kauai. He got his money's worth. I fully agree that Joe Sandberg was the one to benefit from this deal. It wasn't the marketing of aspiration. The question is, what was the goal Joe Sandberg wanted to achieve?

And you have this theory that Joe was using it to glad hand with Kauai during the games that the clippers were playing, or before or after, or whatever. No, I've even evolved that theory. Okay. But I guess what I'm saying is the reason Joe Sandberg wanted to do it was because, of course, he had a relationship with Steve Ballmer, and there was an agreement, hey, we're going to do this deal that no one ever is going to know about. You don't know that. But what I'm saying is I know that based on... You're making that up.

No, no, no. I have nine sources that told me that. No, nine sources that worked in the accounts payable department. Not all finance. Not all finance. Mark, Mark, Mark. So, look, what I want to make clear here is a couple things, because you're really good at talking and being shot by Mark Wahlberg.

Incredible of both those things. There is simply no evidence that this deal was ever announced in any way. And the reason I keep on harping on this is because it a certain point, if you are Joe Sandberg, selfish guy who wants to boast and peacock about all the things he's done, you would want to say, we also have this deal with this guy. No, so you're not, you don't, so if you look at Joe Sandberg, right, what was his job at aspiration? I mean, so this question.

I have many ways that I can talk about this for a very long time. Joe Sandberg was not actually an employee of aspiration. No kidding. But what he was was the co-founder and they want to peek at. about all of the celebrities, all of the sports teams. I have a deal with Leonardo DiCaprio, Robert Downey Jr., Orlando, Bloom, Drake, the Crawfords, and Kauai Leonard, who he paid for the price, by the way. The price of what you're saying, the glad-handing theory, $48 million?

No, he did it. He paid him $3.5 million. The agreement. The contract says... But if you know you have no money to pay the agreement, it's meaningless. No, no, no, no. He knew he had no money to pay it. Mark.

This is like me, St. Pablo, I'm going to give you $200 million. right now. So what we need to establish here is that Joe Sandberg may know, right, at the time of the deal, he has no intention of paying the total term of the deal. He has no money. But Kauai Leonard absolutely thinks it's a real deal. Yeah. It's a real contract. Yeah. So the point is the intent of what we're doing here. No, the intent on Uncle Dennis is in Kauai side is obvious. The intent on Joe Samberg's side is not, right? So why would- The business wants to get paid. Okay, so we established that there is no evidence at all that this deal was ever announced anywhere.

Unless, I mean, not publicly, no. We agree. Not to one, I made a rodents. I was hoping you might bring it in. I've been waiting for anyone to tell me. Why was this a top secret deal that they never talked about? My theory is they wanted to keep it secret because it was a $48 million no-show contract that circumvented the cap.

Your theory is something that is not that. Yeah, no, no. Let's move on. No, no, no, no, no. Not just, let's just move on. Because what's at stake? Because at the exact same time the Kauai deal was signed, right? Joe Sandberg was also trying to take over Blue Apron.

And he didn't have the money to do that either. And so he was looking to do an acquisition that was, I don't know, I don't know the exact amount, but there's plenty of evidence on documentation out there, where he effectively was lying to say he had the money in May of 22 or whenever the day. I was eventually pleading guilty to wire fraud. Yeah, for sure. But you've got to look it from here. So you want to know what the intent was.

So you're asking the question. We agree that Joe Samberg initiated the deal and negotiated the deal with Uncle Dennis and Mitch. The initiation, I'm not saying when we're the other. I'm merely saying what we know. Okay, negotiate the deal. So are you agreeing that Joe Sandberg was the one who negotiated this deal? I cannot tell you that he's the only one who was involved.

Mark, I'm a journalist. I know that he was involved, but is he the only one in the room negotiating? Okay. So, most, but fine, right. So if he's the driving force and he's taking responsibility for this, isn't it relevant what else was going on in his financial life? Oh, and absolutely. And so the timeline that I wanted to point us to is.

So here we are. Okay. Right. So here he is, he's committed to a deal with Kauai that pays $1.75 million a quarter to be paid first on June 30th, right, of 2022. That was the first payment. Right, when it was due, right? So at the same time, at the same time, knows he doesn't have the money. Because we know from the September 30th, 2021 financials, which would have been after Balmer put in his money, that they only had $13 million left.

So, Balmer puts in his money in September of 2021. Right. So September 30th, so he put it in September 14th or 17th, one of those two dates of 2021. And as of September 30th of 2021, according to the S4 that was filed by Interprivate because of the, the SPAC that they were trying to take. Private was the holding company that was going to absorb. Make everybody all the money, right? The SPAC at $2.3 billion. Right.

Which is the valuation that came up when, Mark, because Steve Balmer and Oak Tree Capital Management invested together and resulted in this valuation of, whoa. That's not how it works. That's not how it works. Of course it is how it's not only the time. But that's not how a SPAC is value. But that's besides the point. That's not really relevant at this point.

It speaks to why Joe Sandberg was doing the deal at all. Well, that, okay. He wanted to get the payout, right? Because that was the only thing that could save his ass. with Steve Balmer who gave him $50 million personally alongside Oak Tree. And guess what? The SPAC that wasn't over $2 billion as a valuation was after that roughly $300 million infusion came out. You're missing the point because you're trying to just drive it just the one thing you know.

Okay. So I'm talking about like sports washing and I think you're trying to talk about lots of other things. No, no, no, you're not letting me finish. Please, please. All right. So now we know from Joe Sandberg's perspective, he's got Kauai that this company owns $28 million. plus $20 million in an equity deal. Yeah, but that's coming from him personally.

That's worthless. And so... It's relevant, but I'll go with it. Okay, that's fine. We're going with it, right? So that's one. Two, he also committed to the Red Sox to pay $7 million a year, the exact same day before. So that's another seven, right? They're collecting these sports deals.

Right. At the same time, he owes personally $145 million that he is unable to pay. And he's hoping that he can figure all this out. But what we also know is that Balmer invested September 14th or 17th of 2021. And there are published financials that interprivate put to the SEC that shows they only have $13 million. So at the time that long before, I should say long before Joe Sandberg completed this deal, he knew they had no money. Oh, oh, oh. So we know, he knew he had.

Because all the money, think about it, all the money. And then when you had numbers after that. You know what happened to the money? they're not counting the marketing dollars against their valuation. It's because they're just spending it all. Right, that special, I forget what they called it. It's amazing. They made up an acronym.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So the point being that I fully agree and have reported that the money goes in from Balmer and others and the money goes out almost immediately. Immediately, right? It's crazy. But think about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So if all of this was-

We just to say that, of course, when it comes to Kauai, right, the question is, okay, why did they? Why did they even do the deal? Yeah. Why did they even do the deal? We're circling a question for which the only rational explanation is that it wasn't in aspirations interests to do it. It was in someone else's.

That's where we disagree. None of this has anything to do with aspiration's best interest. That's what I mean. That's what I'm saying. None of it. None of it. No, I agree. It's a terrible deal for aspiration.

No, Joe Sandberg only cares about Joe Sambor. Yes. Joe Samburg does. Well, no, hold on. So the only benefits if aspiration goes public at a $2 plus billion valuation. Of course. Of course, but in order, but he also needs to survive because cash flow-wise, he is toast. And he knows the company is toast.

Because even his- Yes, he needs to raise money perpetually because the money is coming in and going out. That's what Charnie said, right? He needs to raise money perpetually. And what did he say to Churny, I'm going to kill you because you don't even know what I have to do to do all this stuff? Yes. Right. So this is all, this whole thing is only about Joe Sandberg and him trying to stay out of general. It's about Joe Sandberg trying to get aspiration. to cash in on a two plus billion dollar spec.

Right. That's his... Literally get out of jail-free cards. That's what I've been writing. And by the way... And you didn't mention that at all in your first podcast. Episode one, we did all this. You mentioned the SPAC, you mentioned SPAC, but you didn't tie it back to him just trying

to stay out of jail. But it doesn't matter. I disagree. I think chat GPT may be doing me a little bit of an injustice in terms of the summaries that's presented to you. I got the transcript somewhere, but anyways. That's what I mean. But look, what I want to say is, when they get to April, they sign Kauai.

He's due the first payment. of June and the P.m. in July. All of Bombers money is gone. Yes. Gone. Right. Now, you would think, yes. You would think if there was a deal that was made between Balmer and anybody, anybody, anybody with half a brain would say, hey, look, we've got this deal with bomber for whatever reason. I know what the reason is. You don't have to understand. This is Sandberg talking. You would set aside that money. No question. Okay, there you go. But do you agree that Joe Sandberg is also somebody, who maybe isn't as smart as he thought he was. I don't know or care.

All I know. But I guess the point is, there can be some mixture, as always, of cleverness and incompetence. There can be a lot of mixtures of a lot of things, but you don't have proof one way or the other. Hold on, hold on, hold on. We're going to get there. The question here I asked you was, sir, why did they never announce this deal at all? And so we're now in the weeds and that's okay? Yeah, you know, because you're trying to make that a big deal to show with a no-show job, right?

But it's not-explicable. No, it's not relevant. It is the most, why would, okay. No, it's very explicable if you've ever. done marketing. If you ever worked in a company, so why for two years? Let's give it two years. Did they never mention it? Because they changed business. They brought

in a new CEO. April, May, June, July. October, by October. October, November, December. So I gave you the first hit, right? First of all, let's walk through it. Let's walk through it, right? Rule number one of marketing, if you're making one big announcement, you don't step on it with another announcement. How many months does it take for a bit of breathing room?

You find out, right? By the time. Is it one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, eight, there's more. It's not about that. You're trying to game it, but it's not like that. That's a lot of months. No, no, because April 30th, right, I'm sorry, March 30th when they signed and announced the Red Sox deal. Big deal, right? So, do you don't step on that.

Okay, so the question is how many months? By the time they got to, I'm trying to think when they actually changed their business model. But it was prior October because that's when they let Churny go and that's when they brought in Olivia. Right? But they had already... The numbers were already there, as you saw in the S4, that they were making their money in business to business. They were getting killed, destroyed, had no upside whatsoever on their consumer business. So it wouldn't be the first time in the history of marketing where you signed somebody to do something, pivoted in your business, and decided not to use it.

So I want to add a little bit of texture because they signed him to a deal again that. is four times larger than everyone else combined, who was like a billion times more famous. You keep on going to that as if it's a reflection of some insidious, you know, effort. But it means not relevant what at all. Let me ask you a basic question. You keep using it, but it's not relevant at all. Because of course it is, Mark, because it speaks to why exactly this deal was specifically the way it was constructed.

It reflects an intent from someone. No, the businesses were different. So I just got to jump in here to clarify something about the timeline here. Because the business of aspiration, which Mark would, was just alluding to, was not meaningfully different in April 2022 when Aspiration signed Kawhi Leonard to this top secret $28 million no-show endorsement deal from what the business of aspiration was in September of 2021 when they signed this $300-plus million dollar founding sponsorship deal with the Clippers. In fact, that Clippers deal reflected this pivot that Mark

is trying to say happened after the KL2-inspire LLC deal was brokered. But that deal, the Clipper deal, was the embodiment, actually, of this pivot. It was the thing that was designed to draw attention to it, as Steve Balmer himself announced at Clippers Media Day in September of 2021 with, you know, a French accent of his own. The pieste resistance as we went through this is when we did. had a chance to really sit down and meet the folks from aspiration. Joe Samberg, who runs aspirations here, he'll talk to you a little bit more about their company. We can talk about our partnership. But to have our first founding partner be a company that focuses in on providing

services to consumers and businesses to reduce or even go negative on their own carbon footprints was a great thing. We played that clip in episode one, by the way, which I do strongly encourage you to go back and listen to at some point, not least because we also establish in that episode that the top secret no-show $28 million endorsement deal with Kauai Leonard was also about this pivot the carbon offsets. As one particular deliverable in this very deliberately structured contract

that we had read indicated that Leonard has to be. to be available and participate with company to create an annual program in support of the company's reforestation program with a tie to calculating Leonard's carbon footprint given his annual schedule events and travel. Boy, I'd love to see that. Well, it's hard because it didn't happen. I thought you were going to say that was the one thing he did do. And so if you want even more of our analysis of Aspirations carbon offsets business with the Clippers, and even more also on the flow of funds from Steve Balmer to Aspiration, which was largely inspired by our first conversation on this show with Mark Cuban.

That stuff happens to be in part four of this series, just in case you're curious. But I do want to return us now to the argument that I was in the middle of having with our special guest. When a business is thinking it's going to be profitable, and it's operating like a normal business. It's one thing. And then when the owner, the main thing,

guy goes and borrows money again fraudulently and all of a sudden their business is no longer a good operating business. Let's say you didn't like, you had immediate buyers remorse and you were like, whoa, we just paid this guy four times more than the biggest stars in Hollywood combined and we don't want to use them anymore. Shouldn't you at least say we did it so you get something? No, because then you look like a fucking moron. I mean, I think and fear that might have happened anyway. Well, yeah, but they're trying to survive, right? You don't announce that you signed a guy that you, and by the way, they ended up paying him less than they paid those celebrities.

How do you know that? Because he's only been paid, he only was paid twice. That I have reported so far. No, that anybody that's anywhere. If you back, go back on the numbers. No, I just, I did the math. At most, so let's just do the math. Well, the bankruptcy filing says he's owed $7 million.

Right. The deal was 28. Right. And so somewhere between the three and a half that I've reported in 2022, and that is a big gulf. No. Right. So what happens is the $28 million, the day that they go bankrupt, anything past that, or the day they file.

Yeah. So wipe off the last year. So that's 21. Yeah. Right. So that's seven. Now that's down to 14, right. If there wasn't any other conversation or anything.

So at most. Do you have information that there was conversation about that? About the remaining dollars? No. I just don't think we can definitively. say based on the evidence that he got paid only three and a half million dollars. But think of it this way, right? 16 potential payments.

You only knew about two of them. And one of them, from your first reporting, right, you had tied specifically to Balmer. But we know Balmer's money was all gone by the time the agreement was even signed. So you went out and made this assertation about Balmer without knowing that the money wasn't even available to pay. We had seven sources, but I want to go past that because you don't believe the sources. But the seven sources was the guy with the whatever modulated voice. One of the finance department employees who would interview by the federal government, who's pointed me to documents that have been verified by every single other source and documentation.

All the means he works in the accounts payable department or in the finance department. I think it's easy to dismiss the sources and I can't possibly convince you otherwise. That's okay. But it's not even just about dismissing. It's just not enough. You just sh- on a guy's reputation by having some guy in the AP department. who's tried to tie it. Mark, Mark, Mark.

Your guy said, your guy said everybody knew. It was common knowledge that this was circumvention this hour. In the department in which they had to make payments to Kauai Leonard

that no one could explain, there was talk about... It's the accounts payable department. Mark, you don't know who these people are and I wish you would stop. It's just... We can speculate. I can tell by the form

that you showed in your first podcast. We have over 3,000 pages of documents. There are a lot of forms. Yeah, but what you showed, what you show was just an accounts payable ledger. That's all. We have documents that we can get to, and I want to. I see a folder.

You see a folder. I want to get to the folder, Mark. You keep on preventing me from getting to the folder. Have you talked to Steve Ballmer about this? The first piece of paper in this is something that people have pointed out to me a lot. And I just want to make sure that because you're saying you're not just chilling for Steve Balmer here, that you are not in fact this meme. Oh, you busted me. Yes, that's me.

Are you familiar with this meme? No, I'm not. You're familiar with Apu from the Simpsons jumping in front of another person behind a counter. It says billionaires. Yeah, I only know the episode. I only know the episode I deal with. I'm the criminal with the gun. You got to watch in season 20 the episode with the billionaire's handshake.

Oh, yeah, three points. Big three and a big D for the big C. Mark Cuban, that's me. Who is that man? And why isn't his enthusiasm being punished? That's Mark Cuban, sir. He's the most flamboyant owner in the league. Do you think the Clippers knew that Kauai had this deal with aspiration? I don't know.

I don't know. I mean, it wasn't the first deal that he signed with the clip sponsor, so I don't know. Right. The Clippers knew about the previous one, the Honey Deal, which was the jersey patch. Why would they not know about this one? I don't know one way or the other. Would you have known if you were the owner of a team and your most important player signed a deal with the... Not necessarily, but probably.

Probably, yeah. Possibly. I think at some point, right, if you could just speculate, like, when would they have known at the very least? That they had a deal? I don't know. I mean, maybe the CEO would know before Balmer would know. Yeah, before Balmer would know. Because that's typically how I would find out.

I wouldn't get a list of deals or anything like that. Sure. I would find out when someone said, hey, you know, would you say hi and take a picture with so-and-so? We signed a deal with them. That's typically when I would know. Now, the bigger sponsor with aspiration, I would know about obviously. Yeah. Right. So we agree on that, I think. Yeah, so Steve Bomber says that he introduced, of course,

Right. Kauai's camp to aspiration. The introduction got made, and then they were off to the races on their own. So at some point, the introduction is made, and then the question is, when does the curiosity arise? I wonder what happened to that? Never. Never what? I've had sponsors that works with us. Hey, can you connect me to Dirk's guy, to Lucas people?

But he said for the founding sponsor of this level. level a little bit. No, that's for me on a $300 million deal. I'm knowing about it. Like, when we did chime, I know about it. Of course. So, yeah. But anything that came across, like, I couldn't tell you, like, Luca,

Lucas people would, you know, talk about certain deals. So you think it's possible that Luca had a side deal with chime and you wouldn't know about it? Yeah, I would have no idea. I wouldn't care. You wouldn't care. No. Why would I? What if you were aware that the camp of the guy who signed the deal had a history of allegedly

asking for things that the rules don't allow? I don't care. I mean, I'm not involved in it at all. You don't care about that? I'm not involved in it. And all, I know that that's the position, but the question is personally, in terms of being honest, wouldn't you have curiosity? I wonder if that deal is going to help me or potentially humiliate me publicly. The only time I really put insert to myself in those types of situations

was if I thought it was a product that was not good for Mavs fans. And our people would come to me and say, hey, we think you might have questions about this. You know, it's a supplement deal or it's, you know, a sports drink deal that's, say, doing something funky. That's the only time I'd get involved. and the salesperson said, is it okay for us to go after these guys? Do I follow up with that afterwards? No, we had a CEO who does all that. Sure, but I'm curious, based on that, what you think about how Lawrence Frank, the Clippers, President of basketball operations, answered this line of yes or no questions at Media Day.

Has Dennis Robertson, Kauai's uncle ever asked for any extra benefits that wouldn't be allowable under the NBA seller cap directly to you? There's been a lot coming about about his asks. Yeah, look, Dennis knows the rules, Kauai knows the rules, Mitch Frankel knows the rules. Mitch Franklin knows the rules and we know the rules. Is that a guess or another? Yes, we all know the rules. Yeah, I mean, he's doing what he's supposed to do, right? Look, have I ever been asked for shit that not legit?

Yeah, of course. You know, do I do it? No, right? That's just the rule. But in terms of the business deals, that's why you have a CEO. Sint Marshall did 99% of the Chime deal. Oh, sure. Look, and I think there are obviously,

the reason the president of basketball ops has asked that is because, of course, it's not just Steve alone in an alley. This is a deal that when I said, who negotiated this? I'm like, I think there are more than just Joe Sandberg and Steve Balmer in the conversation. No chance. Like, yes. No chance. None. Zero.

That what? Being involved in the negotiation of a contract for a player? No, no. Look, the theory of the case here based on my reporting is Steve Balmer turns it over to people who get into the actual nuts and bolts of the deals. The reason I bring that up is because, of course, Steve Ballmer, bomber said the same thing to ESPN. So since 2019, has Dennis Robertson asked you for any other benefits that would not be,

that would be in violation of the league rules? They know the rules. They meaning Kauai and his representatives, including his uncle, we know the rules. And if anything's not clear, we remind ourselves what the rules are. And we make absolutely clear we're going to abide by those rules. And they understand them as well. and it's important for them to abide by them, which they have. But can you translate what is not being said here?

It means what? What is Lawrence Frank not willing to say that you are personally? All I said was there have been players, not even agents. Normally somebody affiliated with the player, a relative or whatever that asked for something. No doubt. No doubt. No, no. But to be clear, to be clear. Yeah, yeah.

You're not saying that. You don't have knowledge that you're admitting to about that. No, I'm just saying. I think nobody, the business people do their business shit, right? There's no reason for basketball to get involved. I tell them not to get involved. Of course, but according to the reporting, and this is out of Toronto and the Lakers, of course, Kauai's camp was explicitly asking for things.

Yeah, but go back to the honey deal. No-show deals, equity and companies. So why wasn't the honey deal and no-show deal? Because that was, by the way, they signed some deals that passed muster. The reason it wasn't a no-show deal was Kauai did ads. Kauai was announced as a honey sponsor. And? What?

That's it. But they asked him to do all that. You have no proof that he was even asked to do anything. So just to clarify here, what does it matter if Kauai was asked by aspiration to do anything? It's everything, right? But whose side does it help if they never asked? It's out of curiosity. It doesn't help either side.

It's a failure on the part of this aspiration. That's all. Certainly. But that's it. But marketing people. So there are multiple deals that Kauai did that. He didn't. And they announced it.

This is why I keep on asking the beginning of the episode what the question is. Why was this one a deal where it was never announcing he never did anything? Because aspiration is a f***ed up company. And they were turning over people left and right. And their founder, the money guy, the guy who kept on bringing in the money, was a huge Clippers fan. He sat front row all the time. He would bring his girlfriend. He would do all the stuff.

He would get all the accoutrements. Is that French? Well, he and Steve. Is that the right French? Great French. And there is a certain jeanée qua about the dynamic

between Steve and Joe. It's not to know. Put aside Steve. It has nothing to do with Steve. Okay. So I want to sort of advance the ball here a bit because Aspiration,

which is a team sponsor and a company that Balmer personally invested $50 million into, that established and not in dispute. I want to go back to the team sponsor dynamic

because you mentioned honey and chime and another one that came up brings us back to this story about how, you know, the Clippers famously ended up keeping DeAndre Jordan the center that they had from you. This is 2015, and it turns out,

and this is just me going through the time machine here, it turns out that in 2015, you were asked about this in a very funny setting. It was on stage during a talk you gave at the George W. Bush Presidential Center in Dallas. This is the day after, this is July 9, 2015, and it sounded like this. Now, the sports fans among us,

and I know there's a bunch here, know that you had kind of a tough night last night. So this week on Shark Tank. Without going, without rehashing all the details of the DeAndre Jordan commitment. Oh, yeah, I had to say his name, okay. From a leadership standpoint, when you have a setback, when you have a tough day, what do you say to your people? What do you say to the family? The conversations we've had today that it's over.

You know, there's nothing you can do about it. You think for a second. is there anything I can change? You think for another second, what have I learned so I can do it differently next time? And then you move forward and say, what are our options? You know, I'm a big believer.

You have to re-earn your business every single day. You have to look to see whether or not... I just like that you were talking about the Andre Jordan in front of Bill Clinton and George W. Bush, who were in the audience at the presidential center there in Dallas. Why do you think I'm bringing this up now? No idea. Okay.

I'm bringing it up because Steve Balmer was fined $250,000 for caps or convention. Right, you mentioned to me, yeah. Reportedly, because his team... offer to marketing side deal for DeAndre Jordan through Lexus. Would it be surprising for you to learn that Lexus was not only a team sponsor, but also like aspiration, a founding partner of the Intuit Dome? No. So I'm just saying like team sponsors being used in these attempted ways to circumvent

the cap against people like you, his competitors, he's done it before. But why? You're trying to make it sound like it's something he does all the time. Well, he's been caught doing it in 2015. Right. So why didn't he do it with all the other sponsors? How many sponsors do you think they have? I just think he does it for the ones that he really cares about. Oh, okay.

So the big ones, but he didn't care enough about Kauai with Honey in 2020 before then, when he could have taken care of all of this. Oh, so let me just do some basic math here because you raise a really good question about like why this now in the timeline. So the Raptors during 2019 free agency, I'm just looking at the numbers here, right? So they can offer a max of $190 million over five years. The Clippers and the Lakers could only offer $141,141 million. What was the year?

Over four years. 2019. Just the big, Hawaii just won the title, free agency. I think that got investigated by the NBA because the Raptors and Lakers

groups complained. 190, 141. Do you know what 190 minus 141 is? With taxes, no. Very taxed answer. 190 minus 141 is 49. Oh, you're trying to say the numbers match up.

The number, his deal is 48. It's 48. Yeah, but okay, let's just go right. Right there, right? Please. So when you did episode one, you thought it was 28.

You didn't know it was 48, right? I didn't have the evidence that I have now for the $20 million. Right, right, right. So now you're backtracking to try to make those numbers fill, right? But that's not the point. No, no, no. It's all consistent. The point is when you went in episode one.

Yeah. And you thought it was $28 million. It is on the endorsement deal, $28 million. Okay. That's not where I'm going. I got the paperwork. Right. You got the paperwork, right?

So it's $28 million. And you tied the $50 million from bomber. to say this is what was being used to pay the 28, correct? I was saying, Balmer put in 50. Right. Kauai was getting out 28. So, I don't know the French word. So eras, whatever, right?

Then one must be connected to the other. No, I'm saying that based on the... Otherwise, what was the whole point of the episode? Well, the whole point of the episode is that we connected... If Balmer wasn't paying that $50 million in order to pay Kauai, what's the point of the episode? remember that we had so much more evidence in the episode. But you made the point. Did you not?

I'm trying to simplify it down in the conversation that we're having now. I'm just going back to episode one when all this started. In episode one, it was 28. I had not mentioned the 20. Because you didn't know about it at the time. I could not report it, absolutely. But the point being that now we have the proof, it was. No, no, no, no, not the point. I'm saying 49 to 48.

Is that a coincidence to you? Yeah. Is it a yes or no. Is it a coincidence? Yes. It is. Yes. That's a hell of a statistical. Because you do, net, no one looks.

that the gross delta as the number when it comes to choosing between one team versus another if it's based off of economics. Nobody. So Texas teams know, Florida teams know that you have Oklahoma teams, though, you have a state tax advantage. I get the difference that these are not, of course, what the take home pay is going to be, depending on where your team is based. Is that what matters? Of course it does, but I'm saying in terms of how this got roughed out, I just am pointing to the question of there is a difference of 49. Okay. So, okay. So, the deal was very quick. incidentally, 48, and it was also in the way that Kauai's camp was asking. No, no, no, no, no, no.

You're putting words in their mouth. That's according to the reporting from Toronto Star. No, no, no, that's in Toronto. That has nothing to do with L.A. But Kauai's camp asked the Raptors at in 2019. The Raptors were like, we're not doing that. He asked that of the Lakers reportedly. Lakers are like, we're not doing that.

And in 2021, guess what happens? $48 billion, a million off from the 49 in exactly that fashion. So, okay. Let's segregate two different things here. Like I said when I first came on, I don't care if Steve is guilty or not, right? It's better for the Mavericks if he is, right? My issue is when you came out with podcast one, you had nothing. That's not true.

It's very true. And you tied the things you tried to get. The things you tried to tie together. Plus 3,000 pages of documents. Can sources be wrong? 100%. Can they be misinterpreted? Can they be misinterpreted?

But they've been proven right for now six episodes. No, no, no, no, no. You make them appear to be right. Okay, but let's just go back. Let's just go back to what caught my intention. Even from you, you're not even factually correct to me. You're just bringing out other stuff. No, no, I am factually correcting you because you tied specifically the $50 million

investment. $50 million in. To $28 million. $28 million out. Right. But they weren't tied at all. They were not connected in the lease bit. Of course they were.

No. I had seven sources saying this was for salary caps or convention. That is what. Then why was the money not paid? Because it was a company run by a clever but ultimately criminal. Oh, so when it comes to supporting your facts, you can use the fact that he's a criminal. I've been using that from the start. It's the facts. No, but it's not. You're using it only to subs to support.

It's just reality. I'm merely describing reality. Your first podcast was very clear that the 50... We have to agree to disagree, I think, on what the first podcast was, but I'm happy to... Let me just finish and tell me if I'm wrong, right? The first podcast said $50 million, which was earmarked specifically for the $28 million of quiet. Yes or no? Earmark specifically. No, I said 50 in, 28 out.

Right. So isn't that saying earmark? I mean, look, Mark, I can refer you generally speaking out of journalistic caution to the definition of how one does provide a pass-thru. It's fungible now. But why would-so the point is you're coming out with this thing that's really, you know, just destroying a man's credibility and integrity. No, no, no, no, no. You knew what was at stake for bomber.

You knew what was... 100%. We made it very clear. Right. But you said 50 in, 28 out. Yes. That looks like your time... In a deal that never got announced.

Of course. Put aside. The dots were connected by the seven sources that I have. You... If the sources... I'm just saying. We can... Why was the money not...

Any... Any march, even a criminal, criminal would know pay the 50. If you're getting the 50 to keep this guy happy for a circumvention that he needs for his business, make sure he gets paid on time at least the first time. Well, I just want to be clear that what I am reporting is that Steve Ballmer did not know at the outset that he was going to get victimized by Joe Sanbrose. We agree on that. The point is, the question is, why was it that the payments were late? Right?

Or not prepayment. or not prepaid or not done something. And the carbon credit stuff we did in the episode before. Yeah, but you didn't do the margin dollars, but anyways, it's okay. I want to get to this thing, okay? Oh, Mark, Mark, Mark. Pavla, Pablo, Pablo. I am enjoying this, by the way.

Me too. Okay, good. The thing that I'm trying to get to here, though, is that aspiration truly was, like, horrifically run. Financially, they were toast. And I want to show you actually just like, so this other document in here, you know so much more about business and forms than me. So this is a series of disclosures that aspiration had to present to potential investors. And it lists a number of very real problems.

Yeah, you talked about this before. If you can just like... Yeah, this is all in the schedule 310. Yeah. So the company is in default. Yeah, this is all the shit in their first page. What does what is default mean just for people who don't know what that means? Seriously. I'll let you define it. Okay. It means they're broke. It just means they're late. It just means they're late and there's a good chance that they won't be able to... That's why I asked. Broke ass is the more colloquial...

So, like, let's go... But here's a good example of what you were trying to convey. I want to list what it is. Right, but here's... Pick whatever you want. So, KPMG resigned as the company's independent auditor. So while on one hand, that's a red flag, right? That they...

Yeah, the independent auditor was like, we can't do this. Yeah, they didn't say why, right? And that's critically... Why do you think, in retrospect, they might have done that? Yeah, because they couldn't... Because Joe Samberg was doing all these round-trip deals, and they couldn't... Because the company was in default and otherwise. It wasn't even that that they were in default.

They couldn't confirm all the... It was fishy. It was all fishy. Whatever reasons they had. Whatever reasons KPMG had. But the more important thing is, from an investor standpoint. Yeah. They just changed auditors.

Okay, but it resigned. It didn't change it. They resigned for... They lost their independent auditor. They didn't give a reason. So the company's in default, KPMG resign as the company's independent auditor. The next page, schedule 3.11... Let's go the company's default, but let's say what it is.

Inherit notes. Inherit ends up being the company that acquired them. after it was all said and done. They were this, inherent was the senior lender. Right. Mark's reading. It's pretty bad, man. This doesn't really say anything.

The company is in default, I believe. There's some stuff on here. That's pretty good. Yeah, I read this in the SEC. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The company is in default. Look, I get your point that. Why would somebody invest in a company that shows you this?

Litigation, 8.7 million in damages, alleged by nanobank. There must be some ancillary thing, right? Claims of breach of loan, breach of the employment. Cognit of Good Faith. But you have to ask the same question. Finre is conducting five inquiries. Right. Right. Right. SEC is conducting a review of the ESG representations. It's just, what was the date? What was the date on these? Well, so let me ask you this because what was the date? Because it's in there. It's in there. If you were pitched to invest in this company at a $2 billion plus valuation as it was first of all, the investment wasn't at a $2 billion valuation. So there's this one, this one, this one I'm saying. hypothetically, if you were presented with this at a $2 billion plus valuation.

It wasn't a $2 billion valuation. You're pivoting. So if I was selling it on Shark Tank, right? I would say, look, we were Aspiration Bank and we screwed up. We were in the consumer business. We screwed up. We even paid money to endorsers that we didn't even use. That's how screwed up we were.

But now I'm going to show you the P&L for our B2B business where we're selling carbon credits, higher margin, bigger deals, right? which are the things that they... Regime change, new CEO, getting rid of the old execs. Right. So now let me show you a pro forma based off of just this business and excluding all the other business. Sure. The $2.3 billion number is very misleading because that's only realized if it goes public with the fact. Exactly. Exactly.

And if it doesn't go public, which is all about all Charnie cares about, right? That's why, not Chirney, Samberg cares about. That's why he's lying. They do, but Charnie's gone in a minute. Yes. Right. Right. So the SPAC isn't going to happen, right? Oh, yeah.

Joe knows it's not going to happen unless he pulls a wrap. At a certain point, it does. But in this case, in this timeline, it's absolutely still. You're right. No, the goal is still, right? Because it's 21. Yeah, right now. Right there's 21.

Yeah. But the investment that they're making at that point in time isn't at the valuation of 2.3 Until it converts. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was the point you missed before in your podcast. Okay. So let me explain to you, right? Yes.

you're buying it lower, right? And you're getting a price. They had rolling closes all the time. That's why they would have a C1, C2, C4, C, you know, series closed, right? And that's why it was like confusing that Balmer put in in September and Dennis Wong put in in December of 22. And then Balmer puts in in March 23 because they had these things called rolling closes. Sure. Right.

So at that point, so there's basically two businesses here, two businesses that are being sold, Shark Tank approach, right? The two businesses are, at the beginning, at this point in time, when everybody thinks the aspiration bank itself is going to happen, and there's this back merger going to happen. You're only going to invest if it's considerably lower than the $2.3 billion. I see what you're saying? Because you see that as the grand prize. But this thing, the reason I'm jumping in here is because this presentation, these disclosures were made to outside investors, 19 of them, according to court documents, who heard this pitch like you and said, No.

No. No. Yeah. You would say to this series of disclosures, no thanks. No, I wouldn't necessarily say that. I don't know what the pitches. Companies pit it every day. So let me put this in the timeline specifically because this was the raise in Q4 of 2022.

Mm-hmm. And so all that stuff is disclosed. So what happened in October of 2022? A lot of bad shit for aspiration, man. No, a lot of good shit for aspiration. A lot of good stuff. What was good about a company? going into default that was losing its entire executive structure as employees were saying,

are we going to make payroll ever? They went to Catana. Antona? Cotona. Right? Cotona. So December 22, they changed. And they were able to show a P&L based only off their B2B.

They did, again, the execs that were pitching. But, Mark, the reason why they were pivoting was because the company as it existed was, of course, pardon my French, totally fucked. And so they were figuring out, okay. No. No, no, no, no, no. Oh, I'm sorry. Now you're a big aspiration fan.

No, I'm not, you know, the more I got to know about Katana, the more I liked it. Katona, right, the more I liked it, right? So I could see. You liked, okay, very good. Because when you, look, the base number is going back to September 30th of 2021, show their B2B business where they didn't waste all that money on marketing, right? Right. Had a chance.

Had a chance. So for that reason you're in? At least would look at it, right? Okay. But not that I would invest in that business, but it's not unheard of for a company to pivot to a new business, have multiple lines of business. It's in fact the only thing left for this company to do is pivot. But the reason I'm saying is that because 19 outside investors looked at this and said, as aforementioned, hell no. And so the question I have now is since.

You know how many people said no to Airbnb? Okay, but I guess. Everybody, federal express. Of course. Of course. That's, of course, an insane comparison to aspiration which went bankrupt and is embroiled in lots of fraud and humiliation, Airbnb, FedEx, and so forth. But in this case, the question I have is just since the first podcast, which you hated, came out on September 3rd, have you communicated it all with the vice chairman of the clippers, Dennis Wong? No. Okay. Dennis Wong is Steve Palmer's close friend and college roommate, the one and only co-owner that Balmer trusted of equity in the team.

he also wound up being the only person who did not have money in aspiration who saw these disclosures that I presented to you. Not the only person. Not the only person. The only person who had never put in money into aspiration before. Oh, they put in money in aspiration before. And said, you know what? I want a piece of this.

This is the signature page for Dennis Wong that's attached to the same disclosures that I just handed you. That's what he saw. Okay. But to your point, right, now let's think this through. Please. Right. There were other investors because we got to see the pictures. The point is, right, the point is, those other two investors that invested around the same time as Dennis Wong, right?

They, best I can remember, so they also said, you know what? I like what I'm seeing in this pivot. But I do need to just take a quick beat here to clarify something that we'd reported previously on the show. When it comes to the identities of the only other investors, the two other investors, the two other entities who gave Aspiration money in December 2020 in that same series C5 round, having been presented with that same exact set of disclosures in all of their bleakness as Clippers' co-owner Dennis Wong, because one of those two investors was Aspiration board member Ibrahim al-Husani, the same guy who pleaded guilty to wire fraud in March 2025, the same guy who was the alleged

co-conspirator of Aspiration co-founder Joe San, And the other investor was, yes, Joe Sandberg himself, who of course pleaded guilty to wire fraud in August of 2025. So the question I have is those disclosures are the things that Dennis Wong signed off on. And aspirations quarterly payment to Quay Leonard was at this point more than two months late. Dennis Wong put in $1.99 million. He acquired $0.072. percent of the company in default facing those problems, as aforementioned. Why do you think he put in

that little money for that little equity? Maybe to make his daughter happy, his daughter worked there, right? Maybe to keep them alive, maybe to keep them, give them one more month. Maybe they said, you think that I would save the balance sheets of aspiration, two million? And by the way, lots of people came in and out of the company. I'm not here to interrogate them at the moment. So the people who went back to work there. But why would Dennis Wong put in specifically that little amount of money after $300 million had a better even raised the year before? Because maybe that was a bridge loan.

Maybe it was a bridge amount. Maybe they said, you know what, we got to make this one payroll, right? And we have more money coming in. We have more money coming in after that, which turned out to be true. I get asked all the time. But this wasn't a loan. This was an investment. It was a actual purchase agreement.

It was a Series C5 preferred stock purchase agreement. Right. I can't tell you. tell you how often I hear, right? Hey, we're close. We have this other money coming in, which turned out to be true, right? Because they ended up raising 68 million dollars. Kind of. But the company is, just spoiler alert, the company is fucked. Well, no. This is our, we're getting to relive decisions with the benefit of hindsight, I admit. Joe Samberg is fucked. Joe Samberg is fucked. The company literally is in default at the time

that this payment is made. Joe Samberg is the one. And aspiration needs to pivot to a totally different business. That's what companies do, Pablo. But that is also a synonym for being ficked. They filed for bankruptcy. So, okay. Why would a new CEO take the job of CEO? That's a great question for Olivia Albrecht. Great question. Right. Why does she stay there for an extended period of time? But I want to ask about Dennis Long. I don't care about Olivia at the moment. Yeah, we do care about Livy. No, lots of people, lots of people either fell for or went eyes wide open in for a f*** scenario as described. But no, but see, no, no, no, no. Okay. Our mutual friend has been very clear that he didn't know that they were...

He's not my friend. He is a source and I appreciate the distinction. With the point being, and I want to leave him to the side for a second, because what Dennis Wong decided to do, nine days before, KL2 Aspire LLC, finally after months of delay, got paid 1.75, are you suggesting that is another coincidence? Look, there were 16 contractual payments. You have one payment that was in proximity

to an investment. Yeah, the week before, after months of delay. After months of delay. I asked you the question, why would he put in 1.99 specifically? And your only response was maybe he wanted to save the company, which doesn't add up. Maybe he wanted to make his daughter happy. By the way, his daughter, according to people who worked with her, quote, she 100% knew that the company was a sinking ship. End quote.

Kauai got paid 1.75 the day they laid off 20% of the staff. Yeah, that's because they were pivoting. Of course you're going to lay off staff. Look, you're trying to put everything in. Joe Sandberg is his own unique entity. Aspiration to people doing the work, the people that came every day believing. Yeah, they believed in the mission. And those are my sources for the record.

And that's great. But they had no idea or understanding of why Joe Sandberg did what he did. I mean, what they did, though, was see wire in and wire out knowledge in the finance department. Like, this is Dennis Wong's wire in. This is KL2's wire out the week before. This is bookkeeping. It means nothing. literally the flow of funds.

The question I have, though. Let me say this again, Paul. No, I hear you. 16 payments. Yeah. But why this one? 16 contractual payments. But I want to focus on.

But why is this one? The one that Dennis Wong put in money nine days before to a degree that is inexplicable to everybody. Look, any payment that's going to be made is going to be within some X number of days. It was a month late, Mark. What's that? This payment to Kauai was months late. Yeah, I don't know.

And nine days later, it got paid magically. Who benefits the most from that payment? Anyone who wants Kauai to finally get paid? Uncle Dennis. Kauai's camp, the Clippers are the two parties that I am constantly trying to. So as a. Link to the logic here in your brain. As someone who's had companies that have done well and poorly for a period, unfortunately,

turned around, right? When you have a vendor that is calling you all the time, right? The squeaky wheel moves to the top. Did it cross your mind that the guy was just so annoying. But Mark, yes, but lots of people weren't getting paid. Lots of clients were getting screwed, right? And they were all calling. And the question is, why did this guy get prioritized?

Because maybe he was the squeakiest wheel. Maybe because Joe Sandberg's a Clippers fan. Maybe because Joe Sandberg was Cui at game. that he would go to sitting on the front row or right on the court wherever I don't know exactly where he was sitting right and maybe he already had a relationship with kawai and he would be embarrassed next time because maybe koi would say something uncle dennis was going to those games maybe uncle dennis was saying something specifically to joe sandberg and that guy is saying okay we got to pay this guy you know I'm the one raising money I got more money coming in it's just a very funny thing for

the number one priority according to my sources here to be pay the guy doing nothing for us in a deal we've never announced. Because Joe Samberg, he's driving everything. He's doing raising all the money. So the question is, what does he benefit from in terms of this deal existing? And my theory has been consistent throughout, which is that he benefits because he preserves a relationship with Steve Balmer in which his obligation. So the more I learned.

So when I did the first podcast, I didn't really know all that much about Joe. So it was interesting. And thank you deep research, right? Oh, boy. So it was interesting. This is a guy. What else was on Joe Sanber? What else was he doing?

Please, educate me. He was actively involved in politics. Oh, yeah. He was one of the largest donors. These are the Democrat donors, the biggest in California, some have said. Biggest in California, right? He's on the court. He's got a famous girlfriend, right?

Who's taken to games. He's a media personality. Yeah, yeah. And so his whole spiel, his only, if he collapses, if his image collapses, his whole thing. taking over blue apron. Oh, sure. All that stuff collapses. But it's so weird to prioritize the deal that no one knows about

amid all the public pressure you're feeling. No, no, no, no. You're missing the whole point then. I'm not doing a good job explaining it. No, no. He has lots of things that he's trying to keep the plate spinning. It's not just spinning. It's his whole image.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's selling, that's what criminals do. They sell their image. But I suppose what I'm pointing out to. And if the one guy that you see in a uniform or at that point in time in 21, where I guess he didn't sign it until 22. We didn't play in 21, 22. Right.

No, that's what I said. He didn't sign it until 22, right? And they signed April of 22, right? And so that season starts in November, right, of October, November. Yes, the 22, 23 season. Because we're talking about him getting paid in December, right? And so now he's seeing him at the games again. The guys got from, they've got a big suite where they entertain.

Yes, they do. Right. They've got the seats on the floor. He's probably seen him in the tunnel before and or. after every game. Sure. And he's seeing Uncle Dennis, and I'm sure Uncle Dennis is in his ear.

And Uncle Dennis is... I fully agree that Joe Sandberg was essential to the story of why Kauai was getting paid. So let me just ask you a question. If you're Joe Sandberg, which is more impactful to your life, paying Kauai Leonard or paying some random vendor? I would say that making sure that I paid Kauai above and beyond, not a random vendor, but my other financial obligations is insane because he's returning zero ROI to my company.

No, no. He's literally doing nothing. He's actually just net negative span. You got the wrong hat on, Pablo. I know, I know you're talking about public pressure, and I know you're talking about who's bothering me day to day. I'm concerned if I'm Joe Zanberg about what is the actual health of my company? Why am I prioritizing somebody? No, no, no, no.

The goal is to get to SPAC. Right, right. But, okay, by 2020. A need a functional company. So he's spiraling in 2022. Absolutely. You got to have a functioning company. So paying Kauai 1.75 isn't going to change functioning company.

The 1.99 is not going to change whether it's functioning or not. You know what I would do, though? It would keep Uncle Dennis Robertson and Kauai's camp happy. And it keeps him from bothering Joe Samburg. Who else might be bothered if there were payments that were late? Joe Sandberg. What about, I don't know, potentially, according to my reporting, the Los Angeles Clippers? Do you think that could be a pressure?

I mean, it's possible that Uncle Dennis pressured whoever there. Like Lawrence Frank saying that he heard, or rather, wouldn't say no to whether he heard? Yeah, but you can't. I mean, look, that's ridiculous to even bring that up. Right, right, using his words, he's asking, yes or no questions. But what do you think he's going to do? You don't think he's got a prepared statement he knows exactly what he's going to say before. I'm just saying it's a terrible way to convince me that.

No, you think he gives a, look, it's a big deal. He just doesn't want to be caught lying. It's not even about that. There's no point. There's no point. Kauai addressed it. So think about this. Andrew Charny says it wasn't a no-work deal.

You trust that guy? So the three names, Mike Shucker of the General Counsel, Roche Evanezzi and the CMO, and Eric Anderson, who was the CTO, they came out with a signed statement provided to me saying, Andre Charny, in so many words, is not representing our experience.

Yeah, you're proving my point and you don't even know it. You're making my point and you don't even know. Even no one. Those three named sources are corroborating what my seven anonymous sources were telling me. And Andre Charny is on an island as the co-founder and friend of Joe Sandberg, who's now trying to say, according to his public statements, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, this was a normal deal. The Kauai thing was a normal deal. No, he said the contract was normal.

So look, what I want to get to here. He said, because he even agreed, like, because the Joe Sandberg email to everybody in May of 22 where he said he would provide the start. Oh, yeah, Joe wanted it. even said in the email. Andre signed it. Andre signed the contract. No, no, no, no. That's not where I'm going. Oh, I know. Joe said that Andre didn't want this either. And all the marketing team didn't want it either. Nobody. So nobody, which was par for the course for Joe Sambard. The same in that 20 point, he rammed it through. He rammed it through. Did you read the lawsuit, the $29.5 million lawsuit? Mark, I've read so many laws. I bet you have. I bet you have. So you know that that's where you brought up the,

they brought up the, not the audit committee, the investment committee, right? Yeah. The investment committee said no. And then the general counsel said, we want escrow. Guy sends an email to Joe Sandberg, and the next day it's all changed. The next day, that's how he did business. The whole thing here is that he was and is, according to his own guilty plea, a fraudster. The question is why he wanted to do this. And so for me, what I'm getting to is also, as you foreshadowed, March 9, 2023, those same disclosures, Dennis Wong saw. Steve Ballmer's like, you know what, I want in 10 million dollars more. And I'll tell you exactly how that goes.

Please. Okay. Guy comes to you, Pablo, we've had problems, right? We're pivoting. And I've got my G.C. coming back, right? I've got people that I think are going to go great. I've got a new CEO.

And Pablo, let me just show you this information, these numbers. This business to business stuff, this enterprise business is good. The carbon credits. It is so good. Yeah, carbon credits. We have meta lined up. We have, you know, Bank of America lined up. And you know what, Pablo?

This is so good. I'm going to put in 40. You're putting in 10, Steve. I'm going to go four times that amount. And I'm going to put my own cash in. That's how committed I am to this business. Mark, you're putting in 40 million, whatever it was, dollars in yourself?

All right. I can see the numbers. My marginal cost is 10 million. I've already in 50. So the marginal cost. value of this. And remember, this is March of 23 when he invested. And by that point- This is the same round as Dennis Wong. It was the long round. Right, yeah, which is not unusual. December to market. Yeah, they keep it open. Right. Right. And that was also the time when

Samberg was paying inter-private two, five-million dollar payments to extend the outside date, which is the drop-dead date for the SPAC. Yeah. Right. So he's going, so it wouldn't be the first time. Oh, no, no, no. But the idea that he's the idea that he's, he's, the- He's doing this. How stupid is he because he reads this? Well, he's so stupid that the guy who he still trusts that he doesn't know as a fraudster is putting in four times as much cash as he is, 20 times as much cash as Dennis Wong. That's why he's doing it. Right. So I guess it's worth pointing out, though, that at this point, when you go to December, before Steve Lamer made that decision, the SPAC as a premise had basically collapsed. No. No? No. There was a meeting held in which 90% of the investors were like, we're cashing out. Right, but it still was alive. That's why... But 90% said we're out.

Yeah, but you can... Or 90%! Yeah, but you can go replenish. This is documented. You can replenish those investors. Okay, but how big an uphill climb is all of this in context? But you're in context, you have to look... No, you have to look at what's happening with SPACs at the same point in time.

Yeah, and over time, spacks were revealed to be a giant illusion. Not necessarily, but they weren't doing as well. Right. But they're not doing it. as well. I mean, yeah. But the point being, no, you're using this as some type of indicator. No, I'm just giving you like, it's not an indication of anything, Bobbo. It's documented to be. Pablo, it's not. Using its appendages, its identity, its employees, it's very basic thesis. No.

That's back as a thesis. Just look at Katona's website, Twitter feed, right? That's the, so I'm giving you 90% of the investors are cashing out with inter-private and you're saying, look at the Twitter feed? Pablo. Because they got posts? Because they dare to post? It's a blank check. A blank check spec, right? And so they have the option to extract their money. They have the option to get more money to put in there a variety of ways. They have to come up with a total of $400 million at some point.

The fact that these investors pulled out could be a thousand different reasons. What data did they have available to them to make a determination if it was a good? What if they saw that everybody who was in the executive structure was fired? They didn't have any data. Okay, but as an investor, would it be concerning to you if they were having massive layoffs and needed to pivot the entire premise of the company? They knew that they're pivoting. A lot of companies are pivoting.

So I guess what they're saying is, hey, you guys are pivoting. This is most generously, you guys are pivoting. We think that we're best, passion out at exactly the way we're in. Pablo, you're coming to the conclusion that these people left, the 90% left, because it's obvious that it was a fraud or there's something wrong. They smelled that it was a bad deal. Yeah, I'm saying you have no idea that that's the case. None.

Not even smid about. I have a sense. Yeah, that's all you have. No, no, no. I have a sense based on nine sources who are telling me, this is why this is happening. Here is the flow of funds. Here are the 3,000 pages of documents.

Can I just get to the whole thing of like, the Clippers say to us, we saw this deal was fishy in the 22, 23 season, and we terminated it. Mm-hmm. For the end of the 23 season. So, you know, how the NBA season works.

So, Bomber puts in 10 in March, March 9th. So that's pretty close to the end of the season. Mm-hmm. So when do you think the Clippers would have said, oh, no, we could determine this? I don't know if they told them at all or when they told them or what was going on. I'm sure they mentioned it. I would say they mentioned it to it because you're closing a big deal, right? So, you know, and when did he start the investment process and when did he close it?

You know, he closed it in March of 23, right? We don't know when they determined that they were going to shut off. the aspiration. We do know they tweeted happy birthday to Kauai. In June? Yeah, in June. So, you know, because the NBA dates are June 30th, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's when the season financially ends. Oh, the league year. For the, yeah, for the business year. For the CBA. I guess what I'm saying is when Steve Bomber says, and I believe him, on some key level that he is a victim of Joe Sandberg, and there is no disagreement from me. Yeah, we both agreed there. Of course he was. The question is whether he was deceived by a guy, he was entrusting to help him

perceive the NBA. Right. And you firmly push back, Team Balmer. So the question I have now is, look, you're a businessman who has said over and over again that, like, we are not immune to mistakes. We are fallible. We are smart. Yeah, I've been scammed.

But we've been scammed. Genuinely, this is just me, like, doing a bit of just, I imagine to be that rich and to lose money from someone you trust. That sucks. Yeah, of course. You must feel like, because you're supposed to be the smart guy, you're humiliating. It's not even that. It's not even that, right?

It's because you trusted somebody. Yes. That's it. This is not a fun thing to be through. I was personally defrauded. Remember, they defrauded me. They defrauded many other investors. These were guys who committed fraud.

How would I be able to... Look, they conned me. You're one of the richest men in America. They conned me. I made an investment in these guys thinking it was on the up and up, and they conned me. Why did Steve... Bomber donate $1.875 million to the charity Joe Sandberg personally founded and was still the board chair of

And when did he start donating the money? When was the first time he donated? 2018. Okay. So you think that he said, hey, I want to keep you on the line because you have this business and I'm going to use you at some point in the future. And so I'm going to keep on. I don't know why this happened. I'm just wondering how could you feel like your trust was so broken and yet donate $1.875 million to the dudes charity. How much does his foundation? You looked up his foundation and you looked at the 9-9-ish rate.

At last check, one of the 10 richest people in the world. Put that aside up. He has a zillion donations to zillions of places. Right. And you really, really think he checked. I would say that if I was embroiled in this giant scheme. No, right? I wouldn't know.

Like, if one of the guys who scam me, my foundation was giving them money and we had an overall deal, I would have no clue. It's not worth my time. Mark. It's not worth my time. If you had made a series of donations to Joe Sandberg's charity since 2018, meaning you knew this guy since at least 2017.

Do we know that he knew him? He was the chair, and it's a tiny charity. So was it specified by Balmer to give to him, or was it the foundation that found it and it aligned with Balmer's goals? So according to 60 Minutes interviews, of course, Steve and Connie, his wife, go through grant-by-grant their donations. It really is kind of grant by grant. You can't look back and say, well, people's economic mobility this year was a two,

and next year it's going to be a 2.3. We can't do population level measurement. But place by place, you know, grant by grant, we can do that. Right, it's a list. I get the same shit. It's a list. When the MAVs did their foundation, I'd get the list. And I'd be like, you guys like this?

Done. Okay. There's a lot of like, you have no idea what your money does. does when the money does bad stuff. But when it does good stuff, you know exactly what it is. No, no, no, no, not true at all. It goes the same way. I don't want to bring up the Simpsons meme again. I apologize. The thing I'm saying is if you were making the series of escalating investments into a charity and the charity was run by, in this hypothetical, Bernie Madoff, wouldn't you think to yourself, man, that guy, Bernie Madoff, who's been fucking my entire life, that guy, do I want to

keep donating to the thing I keep on signing off on? I probably don't is what I would imagine. And he's like, you know what? I'm back for more. What was the name of the charity? Golden State Opportunity Foundation. And he started it, but was he the president that ran it and filled out the applications? When it started, right?

When he first started, okay. He's the founder, the sole founder. It is in his image. It is his life story. He is the board share through this time period. And there's somebody who operates it. He doesn't operate it, right? over time he appointed a president.

Right. Mark. Right. That person fills out the forms every year. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And unless there's a reason that someone brings to. But Joe Sandberg was the only person other than that president who had the title of president according to their 990s.

So what? I give money to organizations. It's just federal documents, I guess. I give money to different organizations. And if somebody goes rogue in one of those organizations, I'm not going to know. If you were donating to a guy as central in your suffering, as Joe Sandberg has been presented to be... Okay, no, so here's the presumption that you're making. I'm saying December 24, the federal government has been announced as investigating.

The reason I'm in this chair right now... I'm one of the few people that has experienced all these things. And that's why I love that you're here doing with that. Because I can... I've been there, done that every single piece of these things, right? Well, and I hope not every single piece. Well, no, I've been frauded. No, not... Well, no, because I don't think...

He did anything. Oh, okay. Right. So, but at the same time, there are charities I've made, I've given money to. And if somebody at that charity, even the founder, even the original chairman, goes rogue. Yeah. The chances of me knowing unless somebody at the foundation catches it are minimal. Even if the guy was the guy who was around your games.

Even if the guy was the guy around my games. There could be a guy who sits two seats down for me at the Mavs games. And I wouldn't know. Signage all over the building that you built with your brain. fair hands, this founding sponsor. It's not any guy. It's the guy. No, you're trying, that's right.

That's the whole, that's what you do, Pablo. You're trying to put all this on, you know, if there's a connection, the connection. I'm trying to hold adults accountable for the decisions they make that are documented. Look, if the guy decided to give to the charity, you're presuming now, he's saying, oh, this guy, fuck me. Somebody go look up to make sure that I'm not involved with him anywhere in any shape. If you say that you were victimized, that your trust was broken, humiliated, this was a guy that. you did not trust that you only met in this one way.

Yeah, but he probably has no idea that his charity is giving money to Sandberg's charity. Probably has zero idea. It's his public commentary about how they'd make decisions about donations, say otherwise. Right. So, no, no, no, no, it does not. No, it does not. They go grant by grants. How much time? How much time do you think that would take?

I assume that if you are sincerely somebody who cares about charity as they present themselves to be, you would have some awareness that this person who is in business with you, so many different ways and has been embroiled in this same year, by the way. It's not like any year. It's the same year when the feds... No, you're presuming. You're presuming... No, no, no, no.

This is it. No, you... Let's go back to my point. And do it though is the picture of the article. Let's just say Pablo gives to 20 charities, okay? Do you go back and review the applications? Because the way the rules work is if you give the 20, there's probably a hundred plus, because they have to be...

I assume they're a bunch. Right. There's a bunch. The thought that when they're going through, I never read the detailed application. Not one single time. I just want to... Not one single time.

That's what you would do, and I want to agree on that perspective. Why don't you think the clippers or anyone else associated with them have, like, made any of these arguments that you've been making? There's no upside. There's no upside. You've got to do with the NBA. Look, what happens on Twitter...

But no one's even leaked it. But like no one's leaked it, Mark. There's only downside. That means they have a good organization. No one leaked it. There's only downside. There's only downside to somebody misbeaks. It just feels like you're making arguments, and I'm just wondering why they don't anyway.

Because they have to tell everything to the NBA anyway. Okay. So look, we get to the Mavs for a sec? Sure. So the Mabs of it because. But wait, wait. Again, I want to make my point. Oh, no.

And we can keep on here. This is not me trying to get you out of here. I'm just saying I got another question. Right. What got me mad Yes. Is that you didn't have anything concrete. You had conjecture.

No, seven sources and three thousand days documents. No, seven sorts. No, those are physical in, you know. I had the contract that was never announced. Great. He did nothing for ever. Great. And we had.

That has nothing to do with whether or not Balmer violated the CBA. But with the whole, okay. We're going to, we just get my point. Look, if you would come up, if you find a smoking gun, even if you had more. Even if. The Dennis Wong thing, change your mind. No. If that was in episode one.

you'd be like, oh, that makes more sense. No, no. A little bit? No, because I learned more between episode one and two as I dug in more. But the Dennis Wong thing is exactly what we're talking about. Nine days separation between money and money out. Okay, let's start going back to the beginning,

where I was, what got me mad, if you will, not mad. That's okay. I'm not here to be mad if you're mad at your bad. Yeah, made me interested is you shit on somebody's reputation without having any real fact. That was absolutely. A deeply sourced, documented. The fact that it's deeply sourced is there relevant.

Report. No. Cudos to you for finding your sources. No issues there. The conclusions you came to, sh-h-it-on, Steve Balmer, and that was wrong. Because you didn't have enough information to make that connection. I totally respect that you feel that way. I do.

And I want you to have said it. So nothing... Okay. Moving on. Nothing about that that I want to disagree with. I think it's okay for you to feel that way. The Mavs. So part of the reason why it's funny to be in this eternal...

conversation with you is because people are like, are you ever going to ask him about the Mavs and the Dirk-Novitsky sweetheart deal in 2014 to stay in Dallas where he resigned for about $8 million a year when, of course, he had max offers on the table that I have confirmed. There's a conspiracy theory at there.

And by the way, this is just me asking. This is like I don't have... I'm here to confess. I gave him $48 million. That is not SORA. That is actual mark. The conspiracy out there, you know, is that... Why would he take so much less?

He wanted Tim Duncan money. He was at his age. And remember, the cap, I went back and looked, was $58 million three years in a row, right? It wasn't going up at all. And it was how do you manage your cap? And Tim Duncan had done a three-for-thirty deal, and I vividly remember having the conversation. And he's like, I'd like to get Tim Duncan money. I'm like, you know, cap stayed flat.

Here's what we want to do. And he was like, okay. And then the next year, 2016, when the cap won. up, we were able to pay a lot more. But the money he left on the table, the question is like... No, you're presumed... He had max offers. I don't even know that they spoke to him.

Maybe he did. Maybe he didn't. I don't know. But look, if he... I can tell you that he did from those other teams. Who did you talk to, Daryl and who else? I can tell you that there were max offers on the table. Daryl would have come to me and said, let's make a trade.

I can pay Dirk. I want to pay Dirk more. So you're saying that he didn't get max offers at that time in 2014? I'm saying it's highly unlikely for... for the age he was and the fact that they knew that he wanted to stay, that is highly unlikely. Look, Dirk wanting to stay in Dallas is so clear to me. I'm not saying he's getting offers.

Not getting offers. The cap was $58 million at the time, right? So 35% of 50, right. So the question is, and this is truly like not my reporting. So, but the conspiracy out there, Reddit, our buddy Bill Simmons. When Dirk had that documentary and Cuban's company bought it. Is this documentary? Uh-huh.

So the theory here is that Magnolia Pictures. Uh-huh. My company, they own half of them. That's right. Circumended the cap by, you know, overpaying to distribute a documentary about Dirk. How he spent like Iron Man level money on the Dirk Dock. There's $48 million for your diet. Like, who knows what he spent, but...

How much you think we paid? Well, what we did was we checked with the producers of the film. And to your credit, they poured cold water on the whole conspiracy. The head of the production company told us that your company did a $100,000 dollar deal for U.S. distribution rights? For how many years? Ten. So yeah. I'm just look. I'm not here to say gotcha. I'm just here legitimately say I find evidence. You know what? And I thank you. I thank you for just dispelling all the nonsense. I call the producers. And I, and so just to confirm, did the Maverick circumvent the salary cap with Dirk Novitsky in 2014? No. Very good.

Do you think the Nix may have circumvented the cap and taking Jalen Brunson from your Mavericks? I don't know. A different answer. Yeah, I don't know. I just think there was a lot of play there. Yeah. Luca. Uh-huh. I want to get to the Luca Dachitch thing because your first public comments on that trade

were kind of incredible. Yep. They were very funny. February 2025 of this year. It was funny to me. Oh, I mean, it's hilarious. The setting. I mean, you had sold your majority stake

of the Mabs by then. Mm-hmm. Do you remember where you were? No, I don't. Let's play the video. And so I wanted to start off with a question because you've been in, you know, unique situations,

and maybe you can help. If after you left Microsoft, you found out that Steve Balmer traded Windows 11, like the new hot operating system, for Windows 10, the Hall of Fame but older, what would you do? I might have to hide from the press. I know a couple other people that are in that situation. So can you now refresh our memory? Yeah, I appreciate you showing that. That was fun. Who are you on stage with?

Thank you. Bill Gates. You remember where it was? It was in Dallas. I forget what the venue was. Dallas Museum of Art. Okay. And so I bring this all up because what Dallas is like when that comment has made

and the organizations you support. I thought you were going to tie it to Bill Gates to Steve Balmer. Oh, so, I mean, it was available for me. But actually, like, what I've been doing is I'm like, okay, here are the organizations that Mark's involved with the networks he moves in. And we've mentioned a number of them in the conversation already. We've mentioned your Major League Pickleball team, the George W. Bush Presidential Center, where you gave a talk.

I asked about John Ray Jordan. We're not rehashing all the details of the DeAndre Jordan commitment. Oh, yeah, to say his name. Okay. The Dallas Museum of Art, where you joked about Luca with Bill Gates, of course, close to Steve Blomber. And even, I was looking at some other causes. by the way, your charitable work is like real. Like the Mavs under your administration,

like the Southwestern Medical Foundation, like did really good shit. But there is something that I realized that you've not volunteered with me in these back and force that we've had. And I wonder if you know what it is now that I've built up to this question. I have no idea.

It turns out that Dennis Wong lives in Dallas. Oh, he does. It also turns out that Dennis Wong is involved with every one of those exact same organizations that you are that I just mentioned. Really? Dennis Wong also owns a major in Biggabal team based in Texas called the Texas

Ranchers. He's the first face listed on the website's ownership group page. Of the Rangers? He owns the Ranchers. That's right. Dennis Wong serves on the executive advisory council of the George W. Bush Presidential Center.

I did not know that. Dennis Wong is on the board of trustees of the Dallas Museum of Art. I did not know that. Where his best friend's old business partner Microsoft Bill Gates, their old Harvard classmate, was invited to give a talk this year with you.

Did not know that. Let me just say on this, that was the first time I had met Bill Gates. And so his PR people called me and said, would you be interested, he's doing a book tour. Would you be interested in interviewing Bill? He's had different people interview him at all the different stops. I'm like, I'd never met Bill. And it sounds interesting. So that was the first time I had met him.

When was the first time you met Dennis? He came to a Mavs game probably towards the end of last season. And there's probably, I think there's a picture of him being close to me in proximity. So somebody introduced me to him and said, yeah, he's Steve Balmer's partner. Right. He's also, you know, the alternate governor of the Clippers. Okay. Has been, according to LinkedIn, since April 2017.

Okay. So I'm just saying, like, did you guys ever encounter each other at the board of governor's meetings for like a half dozen years than when you were there together? I don't know that I have. It's possible. Like an Asian dude. Yeah. It's possible. Not exactly looking like the other owners.

Yeah, because Balmer, as best I remember, he was there every meeting. But the alternate governor also can, you know. Yeah. I mean. But, like along. But Balmer like to his credit. What's that? This year, Steve and Dennis both were in attendance at the board of governors.

Okay. I don't recall. I may have met Dennis, but I do remember meeting him at a game. Yeah. So just to reiterate, he's not somebody that you talk to or anything like that. Never. Okay. I've never had a conversation with him outside of being face to face.

Not even at pickleball? Not even a pickleball. Not even when the ranchers are playing the flash? Never. I've yet to be, I'm sorry to admit. at a flash game or match or whatever they call them. But I root for him. I can tell.

I can tell. So I guess we're near the end. No, don't let it end. I know. I know. So I just want to reiterate, you haven't talked to Steve Bomber. You haven't talked to Dennis Wong.

Haven't talked to the NBA. Haven't talked to Adam Silver. Haven't talked to anybody associated with it. How do you think they feel about you? Oh, I don't care. But they're probably like annoyed by it, knowing Adam. They're annoyed. Yeah.

You know, but they know that I take, you know, this is what I do. I like doing this stuff. Right. I like the challenge. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I've been there, right? I've been accused.

I've been accused by people who didn't know shit. And, you know, I was under the, in the firestorm. Oh, and so I've been there. And I just want to make clear, billionaires are people too. Yeah, and it's not like we all hang out. The whole billionaire meme thing. I don't know. My friends are still my friends from high school, from college, from rugby.

Those are my guys. I guess I'm merely saying that. I am trying to understand the networks and how the money flows because I'm not one of you guys. I give opportunity to comment and fact check and push back at every opportunity for every episode. And you deserve credit for that. And I appreciate that. I'm not looking for a pat on the head. But I just want to make clear that none of this is a bad faith effort.

It's why you're here. Right. It's because I want to. Steel manning. As they call it. Steel man. Right. I want not straw men, but steel men.

Even those that get shot by Mark Wahlberg on Amazon time. Do you think the Knicks at the end here should be worried about an upcoming episode of Mark Cuban finds out? You know, that's behind me. You know, more power to J.B., more power to everything. Was I happy that they only got dinged for a second round pick? No. No, it should have been far worse, but is what it is. Do you remain, Mark Cuban at the end here, team bomber?

Yes. I mean, 16 contractual payments. One investment that's within nine days of one of the payments is not enough to fuck with Steve Bomber. I think that was wrong. But thank you for letting me. Same my piece. I appreciate that.

You deserve a lot of respect for that, and I appreciate that. There's no personal way in Amosia at all. At the risk of being my own greatest enemy, I might even want to do this again. We'll see what comes up next, right? I mean... My disappointment is, only one folder access. Hold on. I have anything else.

I seriously thought about bringing my own folder and bring some things down. I will simply say, be careful what you wish for. This has been Pablo Torre finds out A Metal Arc Media production And I'll talk to you next time