Pablo Torre Finds Out - One Dream After Another: The Storytelling Secrets of This American Life's Ira Glass

Episode Date: October 7, 2025

For nearly three decades, he's crafted cinematic narratives on public radio that are unapologetically performative and decidedly high-brow. But Ira Glass, in real life, is not some vegetarian sandwich. Pablo seeks kindred wisdom on activating a third ear, basking in the flow of Lin-Manuel Miranda, covering Donald Trump, growing jealous of The Daily, fact-checking Joe Rogan and opting out of being in touch... with The Rizzler.• Become a Life Partner of "This American Life" Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out. I am Pablo Torre, and today we're going to find out what this sound is. And then we took it to another level. And then we took it to another level. Right after this ad. I was trying to explain to our staff why I was so excited to have you in, and we're all super fans of you. So just sit with our adoring and undulating praise.

the waves of affection we have for you. Given the way that my personality is built, this line is not working for me. Praise is not, but anyway, I support you in whatever it is you want to say here. Great. Yeah, like praise isn't good. That's not a great response to praise,

but I feel like you've had to manage those responses because people come up to you and they're like, Ira, you are our public radio god. And to which you say? I don't know. I say thank you. That's so nice. I'm so glad you're liking the show. I mean, they don't say you're a public radio god. They say like, they like the show or the show means something to them. It usually isn't so much about me. Well, I'm here to make it about you.

Okay. And I wish that I was the sort of person who could be so comfortable with that, but I'm just going to go with it. You're somebody that I came to relatively late in my study of how to do talking into a microphone because I didn't come up through the public radio. I'm going to use sports metaphors throughout. here, which is... That'd be great. I think exactly what you came here for. Yes. As deep sports references.

But in the coaching tree of public radio, you are at the top, and I didn't enter that sort of structure. No, you weren't in our farm teams at the local stations. You were never in the show at NPR and Washington. No. I'm somebody who only recently realized that there is... And I want to get this... Exactly right.

There is a band whose genre is Chicago Noise Freaks, named Ira I heard about this. I've listened to their music. What's your review of Ira Glass, the band? Great. Seriously. If you have a band name for you, and if that's what they sound like, that's hugely flattering. I thought it was great. I agree with the scouting report. I find it very amusing that your general mean and tenor and vibe is as our audience has now come to appreciate in this short time together. And they sound like this. that seems great

like really what more could you wish for seriously I don't know like somebody explained to me that there's a sandwich that some restaurant in Los Angeles has where they name the sandwiches after different people on public radio

which already is like that is a really particular choice that's a Fox News fever dream come to live Ira and I think the one named for me is like a vegetarian sandwich in a way that connotes sensitivity or perhaps over sensitivity

and I feel like I'd much prefer this kind of music than to like some sad emo thing it would just make me feel bad well something that I appreciate about your show and this American life it's funny if I get to introduce it to anyone at this point it's coming up the 30th anniversary yes and that to you feels like I feel like it's great we got two

oh come on it's great everything is just great How does it feel really? How does it really feel? Like at one level, it feels like absolutely nothing. Do you know what I mean? Like most people who live to a certain age get to work their job for 30 years. And I feel like that's in a way all this is. And I think there's something a little corny and off-putting about all the anniversaries that public radio shows tend to give themselves a 20th anniversary of all things considered or the 50th anniversary. Like, who cares? And then I'm like, I'm glad we got to do the show this song. Like, that's in there too. and then also I feel like a sense of fatigue with doing the show. I feel like this is a very exciting time to be a journalist, given the seismic changes happening at our country, and it's exciting to get to be out there documenting them, but also I feel a little exhausted.

Yeah, exciting feels euphemistic. What would you say? Threatened to the point of economic uncertainty. And I don't know if you at This American Life feel that because you guys are a 30-year institution, but it's hard to ignore the general, of a celebration of something that's lasted so long at this level that is exhausting to make and so crafted that when I came to do a chapter of one of the shows recently.

Yes. When you were on our show. When I lived the public radio sandwich dream of being one of the slices of meat in a multi-chapter fish, I came to appreciate how hard it is in ways that I always detected from afar but saw from the inside. And all of which is to say that, the larger context is a bunch of people effectively look at public radio and these people having to be in government and they're like, this shit should be in the trash. Yes, or at least funded by somebody else and not funded by their tax dollars. Is it weird to have a big party in that context or no, that is not something that you feel like, I'm not telling you to not. I want you to have the party because part of the premise here is like, you know, this shit is imperiled. I mean, our show is not imperiled, I will say.

Like, we didn't get any federal money, so we weren't touched by the federal cuts. I mean, some of the member stations obviously are in way more desperate trouble, and we feel mindful of that. But we have not planned a party to celebrate the 30th anniversary, but partly that's out of being on deadline with other stuff. And partly it's about a feeling of not into these things, like patting ourselves on the back, but maybe we should have a party or something.

If we do, I'll be sure to let you know and you can come. Part of the comedy, though, of me getting to know you in the way that I have in the last several months has been, not only how I relate to just feeling so busy making the show that you love, that you don't have time to necessarily take the big view of everything. Yes. And I want to talk to you about that. But it's also the way in which you personally, in ways that, again, I can kind of relate to, are like casually telling me,

oh yeah, I'm getting married next week. Yeah. And you did. Yes. And this wasn't, I don't know, I just get the sense that you're not someone who's like, I want everybody to know that I'm going through an amazing milestone life event and I want all of the likes on Facebook.

The whole receiving praise, receiving literal bouquets, figurative bouquets. Yes. And that's not your comfort zone. It's not my comfort zone. No, but I'm not hiding anything. It's just like that's not my. go to. I feel like I'm working many hours and trying to get out a show and then I have some private time besides. What's private time like though? Private time has been wonderful because since, you know,

I met this person and we're married and it's been really sweet in a way that I don't take for granted. I don't want to be so prying as to immediately just be uncomfortable in the prying. You should, yeah, I'll answer anything. I really will. Having listened to your show, I feel obliged to be as prying as you are with Mahmood Khalil and other such figures that I've appreciated you profiling. And that's such a hallmark of what you do. What about your wedding felt the most like, ooh, this could be a story that I want people to know about. Oh, wow. I didn't think about any of it as a story that I could put out there. I mean, the wedding itself, we've got a city hall wedding in New York City, and it's an incredible scene. And when we were there,

I did think, like, I don't think a story. You have this tape recorder out for a second. Kind of, yeah, like, because it's people getting married at all ages. and all different parts of the city and just like every different group you can imagine and pregnant brides and super young brides and very old couples and just it's so sweet and you just feel like you're part of this thing. So it's like it's really like a very,

it's a very romantic scene and somebody could do some sort of story there. I mean, you'd have to go in with a mission on like what is and you'd want to find out or who would be a character to follow. The thing that has seemed most like something that you could write about for the radio, though, that has more emotional substance, is that my mom was a marriage therapist and published a book and did research.

And there isn't enough couple-centered time. So what's the solution? So I think that the solution is to create some structure, to have some couple-centered time, not for the sake of meeting the husband's needs, but for the sake of meeting both of their needs in a caring way and in a fun way. and in a fun way, part of the thrill of an affair. And she was very much of the mind that you should try to make your relationship work out. And in various other relationships, including my first marriage, I wonder now if we spent too long trying to make it work out. Like everybody learns now, like, oh, relationships are tough and you've got to work.

And I wonder actually, like, I don't know, like maybe the fact that these relationships were so much work was a sign, and I should have gotten out, and I shouldn't have heeded that, and that we all are sort of conned by the idea of relationships are hard, because this relationship I've been in has been so easy from the start. Like an old Broadway musical, what they say, like being in love with somebody will be what every dumb song says, where it's just very easy. and when there's conflict we should listen to each other and we like talk it out and it's done in an hour and there aren't really conflicts really to speak of

and at some point I thought like maybe there's some way to write that into a story in the show because for me it's been sort of a paradigm shift and how I think about what a good relationship is one of the things I listen to on your show as one of the paid subscriber yeah we have this thing

that we started this last year because the podcast business has been harder to make money. And so we had people subscribe. And thankfully, like, people have stepped up and it's now a life partners. Life partners is what we call it. And yeah, and they're like a, it's now become like a fourth of our budget. That's incredible. And I also study just in so far as I can, like how you guys create a business out of something that feels very hard to monetize from the outside. I say all of that to say that one of the things I heard on the life partners episodes was a recollection from your staff about how they learned that you had separated from your first wife. Yes.

And how would it happen? And in a way that I see some of myself in, not that I happily married, Godspeed, love you, Liz, but just the question of like something happens in your life and you're so consumed by work that sometimes the way that your staff discovers things about you is almost in the casual aside of your interactions? Yeah, you're referring specifically to this thing which happened,

which is that I separated from my first wife and we were separated for two or three years at that point and trying to work it out, going to therapy and trying to get back together but living in separate houses and I hadn't told anybody on my staff and because I just felt like I'm their boss and it just seemed like a little oppressive to have your boss come in and tell you his sad, sack story

and seek your sympathy or something and I just felt like I'm just going to keep this very professional all. But then there was a story that I put together in a couple of days because somebody who's very close to died and I wanted to write a remembrance of her and it fit into that week's theme. And as part of that, I had to reveal that one of the things that had happened is that she had, this is a woman who was in her 80s, who was one of my neighbors. And this woman in her 80s basically became the person who I talked to every day at the end of the day instead of my wife. And just in the way this story laid out, it was important to

just kind of reveal that and reveal kind of how she had stepped in for certain things in place of my wife, this friend who was in her late 80s. And the first time I read that in an edit, you know, to just read it to people see, is this working, what changes we should make. That was, like, I had to tell them before I read it. I was like, oh, by the way, like, there's some personal stuff here that you guys don't know that I'm going to be letting you in the radio audience know. Did you find it funny at the time in any regard, or no, this all sort of occurred to you later in the way that I'm laughing at you now, actually? No, I understood that it was ridiculous. I mean, my friend had just died, so I was pretty sadly for my friend.

But like, I understood how absurd that is. It's absurd, but also, like, the thing I relate to you in ways that I'm uncomfortable to fully admit until now on microphone, that I think that's how it would go for me. Really? Pardon me, he's editing this in my head, and I was like, oh, no, I didn't give you a good beginning to this show. And if you want to go back at the end and redo it, I'm happy to do it. We're going to keep you contemplating aloud whether we are structuring this well enough. That's my job, by the way, to be self-conscious. And I am doing that.

It's funny to have two people at the desk for the first time, both wondering, ooh, should we edit that part out? No, did we get that? Did we go on that? Part of the reason why I want to just, like, see into your brain is because it's a brain that I admire. It's a brain that I want to sort of make mine more like. And also, I just think it's comically different for all of the similarities that we do share. The question of, when did you know

you wanted to get Ira into the studio and talk to him? It was when I asked you about the last time you watched television. You and I met for the first time and went up for a drink, yeah, and you asked me, when was the last time I watched television? And at that time, I'm not sure if I had watched it in months. And I've never seen cable TV. like if we meant for more than a minute like that was a day that you had been on cable TV

I had just done MSNBC and I was like talking about like I think I said to you I was just talking about like Jeffrey Epstein for reasons that also kind of escaped me now that I try to remember why that was the subject on MSNBC that day it was a couple months ago that was that was the hot story yes and I was talking about it in my capacity to just talk endlessly in ways that are baffling

which I can say was so interesting to me that you were going on I was like I literally would not know I would not know how to prepare or what in the world to say on television. Like, I'm a heavy news consumer. Like, I'm reading everything. But I wouldn't know, like, what to. And then, yeah, like, I have never really watched, I mean, I've watched, like, you know. A minute.

A minute of cable television as a concept. I mean, like, I've watched, you know, I mean, I'm sure there's, there's, there's like an episode of Rachel Maddo here and there back in the day during the first Trump administration because I was curious to see. Like, you know what I mean? Like, occasionally. be the thing I would turn on CNN for like to see a particular thing I'm curious about. But no.

Like I just like, no, I've never, no. I never got into the habit of it. And there was like a, there was, yeah, like I just didn't, I didn't, like, I didn't own a television. Right. When I went to college. I mean, now like kids are different, but like I'm really old. I went to college in the 70s. And so you'd go to college and you just wouldn't have a TV.

That was like a normal thing. Like you had a TV at your parents' house. And so, and then I never got one. because I was busy, and then I got a TV when the Sopranos came on. And because somebody I worked with, Nancy, informed me that, like, something is good on TV. Like, nothing had ever been good on TV before that. But, like, now there's something actually worth watching, and so I bought a television. To watch specifically the Sopranos.

Yes. But then it didn't spread. There wasn't anything else on. I guess I could have tried Oz or something. And then, like, and so now, like... Do you regret the purchase of the television? No, no, no, no, no. No, no.

I loved it. No, like, I love watching television. The soprano's lived up to the hype. Totally. Yeah, of course. And then... But hold on, you just sort of tossed off it's the sopranos, but then nothing else has risen to that level. No, no, no, lots of shows are good. No, I like lots of shows. And in my first marriage, my wife really loved TV.

And we watched a lot of TV. Like, at the time, it was like all the, like, the O.C. and Gilmore Girls, and, like, I've seen all of that. What is your media? I mean, your general cultural consumption has gone from the Sopranos, maybe a minute of Rachel Maddo into the entirety of Gilmore Girls. Yeah, I've seen all of Gilmore Girls in the O.C.

And, like, there's a bunch of Buffy. I've seen all of Buffy. But that's all because of my first wife. I really do love those shows, you know. And then, like, there's other shows that I've seen. That you'll not name because they are... If I thought about it for a second, I could remember. And right now, like, my wife and I are constantly looking for something to watch.

And I feel like we're not watching enough TV, that we should be watching more TV. And I'm also not spending enough time online. I'm so not online. What is your relationship with the internet like? I mean, I look at my phone when I'm on the subway or when I'm between places, but then I don't usually spend much time looking at it. Like, again, like, I'm somebody who's like perpetually a little overwhelmed with my job. And then I haven't, like, I haven't been on TikTok enough to develop an algorithm, which is delivering to me what I want.

So basically I'll go on and look at Gaza stuff. And then I'll go on and look at all the Charlie Kirk stuff. I just want to see what's happening and see what everybody else is seeing. But then I don't go on in the kind of like random scrolling way. Sometimes I'll remember like I'll be trying to fall asleep and I can't fall asleep and I've got nothing to read. And I remember like, oh, I could look at like, I could go into Instagram, couldn't I? And I feel like there have been like, I mean, I know this makes me sound like I'm from another planet. But like there's been like two times in the last year where I remembered to do that and then I went on.

And then Instagram serves me up a lot of like comedians. The algorithm has me pegged as like there's a lot of. Taylor Tomlinson and Mike Barbiglia and, you know, John Mullaney stuff. Sure, sure. Can I ask you, and this is a thing we'll sort of show our YouTube audience as it happens, can I ask you if you recognize this person? You're setting your problems? I'm here to give you free advice. How can I get my money up, not my funny up? We need to chill. Let's go out, man. Oh, he's hitting the gritty!

My sister pours her milk before the cereal. So she pours the milk, then the cereal. That's diabol. Do you have any idea who that? No. Okay. Who is it? It's The Rizzler. I mean, I'm not online.

Like, I'm not, and I feel a little embarrassed that this is like now going to be a public fact about me. Because there's no upside to that. There's no looking cool about that. It's definitely uncool. The phone is there for entertainment. I love how self-conscious you have just become about not knowing who the Rizler is. I consider it, frankly, the only hope I have left in the American cultural. institution that you don't.

No, no, no. I think I think that I'm in the wrong here. I think that it's wrong to not know who that is. Like, I feel like I'm not spending enough time online. That's actually the lesson that I'm getting from this. Can we get that as the aggregated clip? Ira Glass wishes he knew who the Rizzler is. That's true, though. That's a factual statement.

You're pro-Risler. I stand by, I'm pro-knowing who the Rizzler is. I don't want to weigh it on all of his point. beliefs, which are expansive. No, but I want to know who he is. I am so interested as to... Wait, how should I feel about this? I think you should feel very proud

that you don't know who the Rizzler is. Why would I be proud of that, of being out of touch? Because I feel like what it is to be in touch is not so much a consensual experience even. It's just an experience we've all experienced because the algorithm has put the Rizler in front of us, and therefore we all, everybody behind the glass knows who the Rizler is. Right.

and you opting out because your bar is somewhere between the sopranos and the OC. It's not because my bar is it because I'm like not that, I don't know, I just never got into the habit of it is the truth. And then I don't know if other stuff that I'm worried about and thinking about. Do you know what I mean? Like even getting, even like, you know, like when I'm scrolling, basically I'll just go into the different, you know, go to the New York Times and the Washington Post and Wall Street Journal

and see what's happening. And there's a lot of news. And that really can feel all your, like, that. that easily feels like 30, 40 minutes of like screen time, and then that's what I got. You live a life that is extraordinarily different from mine. And I say that as somebody whose show also, like, is meant to be a container for all of my interests. The internet being a key membrane that just, like, covers all those interests is one thing. But in your case, I feel like part of why I admire your show is that it can be about literally,

anything. And that's something else that I just like really strive for in the show that I do here. How do you explain to someone what a good This American Life story is? This American Life story has a plot to it. Like stuff happens, stuff unfolds. It's surprising. And then generally a good story, there's somebody at the center of it who it's just fun to listen to them talk. When did it become apparent that you knew what your show was? I mean different versions Like from the beginning I and my coworkers

We kind of knew what it was I mean the thing was It wasn't it was a it was You know we knew we wanted to make stories Like that what would be different Is that we were doing a kind of A storytelling that nobody was doing on the radio That we wanted just like

Just you know We went from the moment That I start talking at the beginning That we're pulling you into kind of one dream After another and you just get caught up in each story and you want to find out what's going to happen and and that's that. Hamit's got the vibe of a guy who can handle anything, a beefy Tony Soprano type, but without the menace.

We're in this big white four-wheel drive pickup truck that he tools around in. Me and him and a producer, Saasun Khalifi. And Ahmed's task this morning requires ingenuity. His task? He's got to get to work. And at the time, nobody else was really doing it, except for maybe Garrison Kieler, who had a show called The Korean Companion. And even that, you'd have to listen to a lot of music to get to the story part.

And it just seemed like this seems like a thing that this medium is really suited for, that nobody uses it for, which is really a weird thing. Step one, get himself out of Hebron, the city where he lives. This is in the West Bank, so movement on the roads is controlled by the Israeli Army. And every day the army changes which exits out of the city are open. Other people heard us doing it. They're like, oh, yeah. This is really good for that.

And then other people started doing their versions of it, which honestly is gratifying. To have many people copying you, stealing your shit. I don't view it as copying stealing. I just view it as like people are coming to the same conclusion that this feels like a thing. Like when we started it, it was me and Tori Malatia, who ran WBZ in Chicago,

who I make fun of at the end of each episode. And our view of what the show was, we had this feeling of like, he and I felt like, well, we like this kind of thing. But we felt like it was like an indie movie or something. Like, there'll be, like, some people who will like this. And we really didn't expect the kind of mass market success that it got. Like, we really, and our business projections were all,

like, if we can just get on 60 stations by the end of, I can remember it was one year or two years. You know, we were on hundreds of stations by the end of a year. You know, just like, like, like it was just, it turned out to be much more popular than we thought. And that was surprising to you that it was that broadly resonant. It was surprising, yeah. So part of what I think is so obvious now is something that you just referenced as a way of

characterizing Garrison Keeler's work, which is the musicality of it, and he uses music in a way that is different from how you use music. Yeah. But it's really hard for me to divorce your style of production. from the premise of what music is. You are so deliberately rhythmic and precise and designed for the ear. And was that always something?

Does that make sense the way I'm seeing that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like the way I'm performing, the way I'm talking on the air, the way we use music. I mean, we use music the way you use music in a movie. You know what I mean, like to pull you forward and set a feeling

and to go away and leave you with silence for a dramatic moment bring it back to the pot pick up again. Yeah, like it's all designed for that. It's all decided to just like kind of pull you into the dream. That's the that I found most revelatory when I first started like

when I first smoked some of this American life I was like, whoa, it's cinematic. Everything I do on this show when it comes to like editing and scoring and structuring evokes the language of cinema. Maybe because that's to us, maybe, the most potent version of it. Yeah.

But for you, there's also just... So the whole Philip Glass thing. Philip Glass, my cousin, the composer. Yeah, that thing. I don't know why I'm IDing the characters who you're bringing on as if I'm hosting the show, but... I'm throwing you alle Ups and you're fucking dunking it. Genuinely. It's thank you for doing that.

No problem. I need that. Okay. But Philip Glass, the composer, your cousin, if you're to explain this American life in relation to... Philip Glass, is there a way that would make sense to an outsider who needed Philip Glass to be IDed for them? Explain our show in relation to his work? I mean, his work is so aggressively non-narrative. Right. I mean, when he does an opera, like Einstein on the beach or, you know, Aknoten,

or like any of the big incredible operas, like I'm a fan of his music, they are very much not telling a story and they are not developing characters and they're not giving over... They're not IDing necessarily in the way that you have helpfully been ID. Exactly. Like, yeah, they're just sort of creating a space and a feeling. And then you sit inside this feeling and then you sit inside this other feeling. Then you sit inside this other feeling. And you just experience them.

I mean, and it's no coincidence that he's like a practicing Buddhist. It has been for decades and decades. You know, and he just, it's just he just drew completely the opposite conclusions about narrative to him. and the people he collaborates with, like those kinds of stories seem really corny. It just seems really, really corny. And my conclusions were it would be exciting to do narrative in radio. Like radio is so suited for it.

When you imagine yourself in your mind's eye as you're listening to your own show, what is the platform, what is the setting that you as the host are coming to your audience from? Are you saying like where do I picture like I'm sitting? So I've been told like, hey, if you want to be real conversational sounding, imagine that you're at the end of a bar talking to a friend. Or it's like there's someone on stage behind a podium or they're making an address or they're a stand-up, you know, talking to an audience. How do you envision or do you envision yourself in any particular way? I do envision something.

I mean, it's not a visual picture. But like in my mind, I'm talking to one person, like radio. Like right now, as I'm speaking, I'm speaking in the tone that I speak when I'm talking to one person. And I try to write the narration and perform the narration so it comes as close to my actual speaking voice. Because I think that that gets to you the most when you're listening to something. And so everything is designed to feel like that. And we have some people who are on the show who perform in a more stylized way. And that can be fun too.

And you perform in a more stylized. And you perform not like you're like talking in a real conversation like over a drink. You perform like somebody like doing a show. Like there's a lot of TV in the way that you're on the radio. I'm so self. Because people on TV are I think it's like it's not as intimate a medium. Do you know what I mean? And rightly so.

Like on TV you see that it's across the room from you when you're watching it. It's across the room for you. or in your case, not in your home at all until the sopranos shows up. Exactly. You know, but like even on your front, like, it's just like a person sitting at a desk. And so it's like, it's just there's a distance. And people perform at that distance and rightly so. You gave me a note while we were doing, we did an adaptation of one of my favorite things,

the Hunter and Maradonna story, which is titled The Engineer Chapter 2 of a recent episode of this American life. Love that show. Love that show. It was so great to work with you and to get under the hood of just like production in the ways that I think are clear. I'm genuinely nerding out on. But one of the notes you gave me, which just cut to the core of me, and I so genuinely appreciated, was you said at one point, we were doing a table read, and you're like,

you don't need to sell as much as you're selling. Because I was doing these lines, so to speak. But my energy level was big. Yes. And yours, when you were just saying what you imagined yourself doing, your eyes were literally closed, and you got smaller. Yes. And more focused.

And you're right. Like, me coming from the, other, I don't even know if television's a coaching tree as much as it is, just like a room full of people that you got a shout over to be heard in that, just to mix the metaphors here. But like, yes, I now detect, frankly, a thirst. Like, please listen to me. Please be persuaded by me. That is just sort of like what I am maybe now in life as well on a relative basis.

But certainly, modulating myself down to that one-on-one, I'm talking to one person. and my eyes are closed, and you're the only person in the audience, was a separate exercise that was just fascinating for me to inhabit. I remember when you were tracking, when you were recording your narration, like I was listening in,

and there was one line where I was encouraging you to do this thing, which is such a standard broadcast trick, I was just get quieter and lean in on that line. I can't remember what the line was. And I was like the Will Ferrell character from S&L who was like, I can't control the volume of my voice. I have a voice-related, medical condition.

Oh, I'm very sorry. I suffer from voice immodulation, Tita. I'm unable to control the pitch or volume of my voice. What do you mean? And I just couldn't... It was funny. It might literally be taped. I think maybe the Zoom was not recorded mercifully,

but I just felt like... No, no, it was recorded. That was recorded. Like, why can I not do this? And it was so... Again, it was just... It was delightful in ways that activated this third year. I'm like, oh, wow.

I am now hearing myself for the first time. Do it right now. Let the line be like, and then we took it and then to another level and to another level. So I want you to just do like, and then we took it to another level. Oh, God. I'm just going to. And then we took it to another level. I mean, it's kind of corny what I'm doing too.

It's very corny. I would say that. It's a corny move, and I'm sure people are just like... No, but me imitating you, and I just detected some just like smooth jazz, like me just doing bad cosplay of like a radio guy. You're both easy and hard to imitate. Easy because your voice is now itself a genre where people are like, that's...

You don't an ira glass thing. And can I explain to you what I think that is? Sure. There is this unashamed, occasional just like stumbling around. like you're not trying to again like leave perfect edit points you're allowing yourself to even

skate around as if the floor is little slippery sometimes and you can bring yourself again as we just said down to a smaller level to be more laser focused in on that one hypothetical person but it's this mixture of what I find to be very hard to replicate

of like total confidence and yet the sort of like texture of some uncertainty. Huh. Yeah, it's funny. I don't think about it that way, but I totally hear what you're talking about. Yes, yes to everything you're saying. Yeah, there's a quality of like, oh, I'm just like, wait, so then I got to thinking.

You know, what's just did it. You just did the higher class. And part of me was wondering, like, do you, in your brain, are you scripting that out at all? Are you ever scripting out like, you know what? This is a big moment. Undercut the authority that you want to sort of imbue this with, with a deliberate stumble around for a second. 100%.

Yeah, when I'm writing the script. I'm thinking about all that. Because I understand the form it's going to be. It's going to be me talking into a microphone. And so I'm really thinking about, like, how am I going to perform this? And when I'm going to get big and when am I going to get small? And when am I going to, you know, just pause and think and wait. before giving the next thought.

You know what I mean? Like just sometimes you just, I don't know. It's like that's the medium. That's the, but that's not diabolical, Ira. That's just working in the medium that I work in and understanding it. Okay, but now we're getting to the thing that I think about a lot, which is to what extent is doing your job, our job broadly conceived, as acting? Oh, there's some acting for sure.

Absolutely. I mean, anybody in front of a camera or a microphone, of course you're acting. You're performing a version of yourself. And so that's not a problematic thing. Also, I think of the show that we're doing as an. entertainment, even though it's like journalism and it's fact-checked and it's all true. But like our premise from the beginning was that although this is on public radio, we don't want it, we don't want people listening because I think it's going to make them into better people.

We want them just listening because they like, hear a minute of it and they're just like, what's going to happen? And so like I feel like it's like a, I think it's not a shameful thing to say we're trying to entertain. In fact, like for the show to be good, we have to embrace it and just be like, we are going to entertain you. You might think you don't want to hear another story about this subject because it seems a little heavy, but we're just going to start this in a way to make you think like, oh, yeah, what's going to happen? Some of the shit I'm trying to steal. Just how can you be unapologetically highbrow in some regard, but then also how you want to actually just entertain? I mean, I think that like being out for fun, like kind

it gets a bad name except for people who enjoy things. You know what I mean? Like I think like I think the notion that there's tons of podcasts out there which are really just out for fun, but then have like some other serious thing that they're doing at the same time. That seems like a great outcome. You know what I mean? Like that's like I feel that makes me really happy.

I think part of what you've proven is that this can be a popular thing that's also good. One of the things that made this clear to me, by the way, the theatricality of it, is the live shows that you do, which I was just revisiting on YouTube. And one of the things I forgot, you did this story in 2012 that got turned into a literal 14-minute musical.

Yes. By Lynn Manuel Miranda. Yes. The plan was called Operation D-Minus, and one of the schools included in the plan was Park Vista Community High School, where a kid named Justin LaBoy. That's me.

An 18-year-old honor rolls student. I guess straight A's man! Was in the last semester of his senior year. Justin could hardly believe his luck when a very pretty girl showed up. Nioly. And not one, but two of his classes. Nioly. She sat in front of him.

He switched since. And you did this. You unveiled it at BAM, on stage. Bam, the Broken Academy of Music. You're so good at that. Man, she used to fall asleep in class. She was a light-skinned it, Puerto Rico-Dominican, long-hand mature, and a body like, whoa. Like, whoa!

That's not the only reason I liked her, though. She said she moved with her mother to Florida from New York, where dreams are made. Well, so did I. So I said hi. She seemed mature, and I talk more. And I went back and listen and I'm like, who the fuck? How? So give me the origin story of 21 Chump Street.

We got invited to do a show at the Brooklyn Academy of Music and we thought that's a really special place and we should try to live up to what that stage means. And we were just casting around for stuff to do. And then I was a fan of Lins. This is before Hamilton actually. Like he was finishing writing Hamilton. I remember him talking about it with all of us, who was having trouble at the point. He was just like at the end,

and apparently the ending was sort of tricky to write. Anyway, he nailed it, I guess. But whatever. We thought it would be fun to do a musical. Like, I really love musicals. And I think a lot of the aesthetics of our show actually come from my mom taking me to musicals when I was a kid, like the idea of like a story that starts off sort of funny and light

and about one thing and then just gets deeper and darker and about bigger things. That's like so many of the old kind of classic old school musicals. You know, I was like, what the heck I gotta do to be with you? L-O-L-O-L-O-L-O-L. What the heck I got to do to be with you? R-O-F-L-L-L. Tell me who I got to be. That's how they all work.

And I really think that on our show, there's very much, like, the structure of the show that we do, that just got drilled into me from those musicals. And so, like, I like musicals, and it seemed fun. And basically we went to Lynn and said, here's a bunch of different stories that we think could maybe be a musical. Do you want to write something? And then he was really in the middle of writing Hamilton

and then wrote that musical in like a weekend, which is crazy. It's absurd. Yeah. And like took a break from his day job of making like one of the all-time great musicals to do that thing. Later I asked him, why did you pick this one? And one of the reasons why it was because in the original true story, Like we based it on a story that had been reported by a really good Washington Post reporter, actually, and done for our show.

And in the original reporting, the teenage boy, there's a moment where he's trying to oppress this girl and he serenades her in class. And then it's like, well, that's what happens in a musical. Somebody serenades somebody in class. And so he's like, okay, so I've got that. I've got that down, nailed it. And then there were other things about it that he liked, too. I'll think about it. She'll think about it.

She'll think about it. She'll think about it. She said to think about it. She'll think about it. Think about it. She'll think about it. Yes! So, yeah, so it was exciting to do.

I remember he did the musical and then in the same show, Mike Barbiglia was the comedian who he had on for that show. And he came on after it and his opening line was like, it's really hard to come on after a musical. Like, I've never been like, like, the musical was so brought the house down and then he had to go on and like do his story. Well, because the musical, again, it's Anthony Ramos, who is in Hamilton, is the teenage boy in question. and he knocks this shit out of the park. Yeah, yeah, he's amazing. It's just stupid. I mean, but it's just like,

so in this case, to go and pick up a couple of breadcrumbs you dropped along the way, like this was journalism turned into opera. Yeah. Into actual musical theater. Yes, yes, yes. And the desire for your show,

and I say this all the time, like what do I want to do here? I want every show to be a mystery box inside of which anything can be there. That's nice. That's this American life. I mean, that's what it is. It's a magazine.

It's open for mailbox. On a good week. On a good week. Some weeks we don't move up to that much promise. But I don't know. We make a lot of shows. Yes. I mean, you make a lot of shows.

I would say that 30 years of shows is, you know, I don't know, testament to the fact that they're mostly good. Or enough of them are good. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Are you somebody who, when you see something, the ultimate compliment is jealousy? Or no, it's not jealousy. It's something else that's less toxic.

When I see something that I like Yeah, that you like and you're like, I want to do something like that or I wish I had done that or are you not the type of person? No, no, I do feel jealous of stuff for sure. When did you last feel jealous about something? I have to say Monday through Thursday of the Daily last week, every single episode,

I was like, that was really the optimal way to do that story. Yeah. And they were in order. I was like, and also just they're doing it with such speed. This is good for the partnership with New York Times. Let's do this. Let's go here.

Yeah. Yeah. They did. Charlie Croke's memorial on Monday and did a great job of taking you into moments there. Tuesday they did the Trump-Tylenol, Autism, Press Conference, and again, gave you the conference, gave you the analysis of it and just like very, it's just like very clean work in a way that I think anybody who makes stuff makes audio, you could just feel like they're hitting their plot points.

So cleanly, the next day they did a thing on how the UAE got AI chip. and all of Trump's inner circle got all this money in exchange. The next day they did a story that I've been obsessed with and they did such a good job about the U.S. killing people on boats around Venezuela

and the legal justification or lack of justification. It was just like a perfect run of shows and it felt very admiring and jealous at the like, just every single one kind of gave you what you wanted if you were me. I mean, and those weren't,

Like, those weren't narrative either. Those were just, like, those are just like kind of walking through stuff, having an analysis, doing it, just did it really well. But I hear a lot of stuff on podcasts that I feel like, oh, that was great. Like, I hear a lot of stuff. So the daily as its own now template also feels like, by the way, it's borrowed from you in some regard if you're tracing it back, right? I mean, like, the fact that generally they structure as narrative. Structure, score. Yeah.

Yeah. For sure, but then, like, do their own thing. They do it five plus days a week. Yeah. Has any of that made you think, you know what, this whole once a week cadence I'm on? I wish I could do something that's not that. No, I don't think that, but I do think that the show that we're doing, I wonder if it's the right show for this moment in America.

That is, I feel like we can keep making narrative stories, and we do a lot of stories about the changes that are happening in the country because of the Trump administration and looking at the effects of the policies that are happening and we're trying to do them as like narrative stories that unfold like little movies and you get to know the people and like including we do some scoops like you know two weeks ago we got all these immigration judges to talk about what's going on behind the scenes at immigration court that nobody really talks about and like you know so we get stuff like that but I wonder if this moment is really better served by a different kind of

product. And then my thoughts on that are kind of like, I don't know. Like, yeah, like, and I do have thoughts about that. Honestly, like, one of the things I've been thinking about a lot is, like, should we should be making an addition to the radio show? Should we be doing stuff online on videos, be on TikTok, do, like, I just think like, should we just get more into the stream and less and be less of like this little island? You're asking yourself and your staff, should we all really know who the Rizzler is? I think most people, my staff probably do know. Sorry. But let's just, as we sort of look ahead to this 30th anniversary,

you don't want to celebrate at all, clearly. The premise of if you're... No, no, no, it's fine. We'll commemorate it in some way. But just the question of, if you were to make this American life today, what would be the most sort of distinct feature of it that would not be the thing that you've been nursing for 30 years? I think if I'm going to make something today,

it wouldn't be this American life. Like we live in a world where, like, there's so many people doing narrative, audio. I feel like we've proven that point that that's like a fun way to make something and it can be engaging. And there'd be no reason to do a show to prove that point and to explore what could that be. So to make something else, like, I don't know. Like for me, the thing that I'm interested in is could you make a show targeted at the people who are not reading the New York Times and not interested in, fact-based reporting and make a show that is actually made for them in the aesthetics of, like, you know, Rogan or somebody like that.

It's like really, really talking about somebody who's absolutely fact-based. Like, I wouldn't be the right host for it. I could, you know what I mean? Like, like, you would need somebody who's of that world and in that world. You know, you would need a comedian to do it. But like, but like that kind of question seems more interesting to me to me. Because we're in a moment where like it's possible to make product for people who agree, like, the facts matter or the facts don't matter.

and something else matters. But to get any product that can cross from red to blue America or blue to red America or exist for both America, that seems like the more interesting challenge right now. What would the Ira Glass experience, the four-hour Joe Rogan equivalent podcast that you would host would be? When I hear his show, I just think, like, oh, let his fact-checked that. In fact, I thought a decent product would be to do a show,

not in a mean way, but in a super friendly way, that when like Cash Patel, the FBI director is on Joe Rogan, Cash Patel will say like, you know, we caught, you know, we caught, I can't remember what it was like seven of the ten most wanted criminals in the world. And then Joe Rogan's like, really? Like, how'd you do that? And he's like, well, you know, just in the first couple months we did it. And the way that we did it is we actually called other police departments around the world

and said, could you extradate this guy? And then Joe Rogan is like, wait, wait, wait, You're saying that the Biden administration just didn't bother to make a phone call. And then Cash Patel just kind of like goes off and just says some other BS. And you're just like, what he needs is a team of reporters to just step in and be like, Joe, Joe, we ran it down for you. Okay, so here's what happened. And you would do a show that's entirely just like running down the facts that the guests evade or that. But like hosted by like Bert Kreischer or like, you know what I mean?

And then some nerdy Poindexter next to him. You know, who like, who like is big, like, and like not an unfriendly way to Joe. Like, like, we don't mean them harm. Like, we'd be like there to help him out. Yeah. And then, and then maybe pick up some of his, uh, pick up some of his listeners who might be interested in a kind of a fact-based product. I like how you go into this mission in my mind.

What happens is you accidentally reinvent this American life with Bird Kreischer. They're like, oh, shit. We, we made the show again. Can I just say, like, I love Burke Kreischer, so that wouldn't be a problem for me? Okay, so just as a general stereotype, you liking the dude who is mostly, in my view, known for being shirtless and like chugging beer, that tickles you. That's not why people love Burke Kreisher. Burke Kreisher is like, he's funny and he tells stories that are funny. And he talks about his wife and he talks about, Bert Kreisher is there for all of us.

And Bert Kreischer, I don't know. I don't know. Like, he, he, I don't know. I mean, honestly, it's been a little while since I've heard, like, I haven't heard what he's been doing like the last six months or a year. So I don't, you know, maybe something's changed. But like, he was always just like a really fun person to listen to. I have no way to ever know what you're into.

I was asking, my staff, was asking some of your staff, what does Ira know about sports? And it was a very funny scouting report because it was like, I think Ira watched the Super Bowl this year, and I think he, like, was in Chicago

when, like, Michael Jordan was, like, winning all of those titles. What is your relationship, like, with sports? You literally, like, named the only two plot points I've got. Like, literally, I saw the Super Bowl because I was out in San Diego with my cousin. and it seemed fun to watch the Super Bowl and it was really fun to watch the Super Bowl and then the only kind of sports thing

that I ever followed at all was the Bulls back when Michael Jordan was there. I think we should go to a Knicks game. We're both in New York. I'd love to go to a Knicks game. I'd love to go to a Knicks game. All right. But I don't understand like,

I just don't know when a team starts losing the fact that people just stay with the team and they just don't know. It just seems hard. It just seems like choosing a life of punishment, you know? Like, just wait till they get better. I'm sorry. Was the Sopranos not a story of a man fighting through personal demons

in increasingly psychotherapeutic ways? I mean, I know every sentence I'm saying is just ridiculous to any sports fan. But I see the pain that my sports friends go through, and I just feel like that's a pain that I don't have. But yeah, I would love to go to a next game. But you have, what I realize now is that you have the truly undeniable self-satisfaction of somebody who only experienced Michael Jordan's Chicago Bulls.

We're just supposed to win. Wait a minute, you guys don't? You're not winning all the time? Why are you watching? That sounds terrible. Why would you keep coming to games? It seems to a depressing. Ira, I thank you for doing this.

And I suppose, before I let you go, I just want to insist on the fact that if your staff is too cowardly to throw your show the 30th anniversary party you deserve. Pablo Torre finds out is here to fill that foot. We're going to unilaterally

shove compliments down your throat like the leftist sandwich that you're purported to be. Okay. Well, thank you. I appreciate that. I'll get back to you on that one. This has been Pablo Torre finds out a Metal Arc Media production

and I'll talk you next time.