Pablo Torre Finds Out - Share & Eat the Rich & Tell with Tim Miller and Stephanie Ruhle

Episode Date: May 29, 2026

Can Trump ruin these Knicks vibes? Why are billionaires so sensitive? Just how much of the White House is for sale? And is the pope radical? Or can decency levitate? Plus: the joylessness of a luxury box and… Shai Gilgeous-Alexander as a war criminal.Further content:• The White House Intervened to Get a $620 Million Deal for a Company Tied to Donald Trump Jr. (ProPublica)• The Trader in the Oval Office (The Bulwark)• Subscribe to The Bulwark Podcast with Tim Miller Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out. I am Pablo Torre, and today we're going to find out what this sound is. So go out and buy Adele. They're great. Right after this ad. Where do we start? Because I've been sending you guys texts this morning, and we could start with this ProPublica story that just came out.

We could start with the picture of the UFC Stargate being erected on the lawn of the White House. You talk about Donald Trump trying to ruin the fucking vibes in the city. I land in New York. You know, people have a skip in their step. The weather is beautiful. Everybody's got Knicks clothes on. You know, people are fist bumping me on the street. Like, nobody can have any joy without me ruining it.

So, you know, I was invited to the... I was going to go on Wednesday, but they closed it out very quickly. Jim Dolan's great guy, he's... As you know, owns in charge of Madison Square Garden. He's having a good year. Boy, what a team. They win all their games. They really have some great players.

I think I'll be going to one of the games. I was invited by numerous people and Jim, and I think I'll be going, it's great, great to see it. The Knicks have really, they've really suffered for years. What's your production? They're doing right now. I think you guys are wrong on that one. You're giving him too much power on this Knicks thing.

Trump wants to go to the next game, have that it, big boy. Who cares? Like, there's a lot of things we should go after him for and fact check him on. But if that guy wants to go to the next game, do it. That's correct. But there to me, some people can't resist being like, fuck you. You suck. Then let them.

No, they should be focusing their anger on Shea Gilgis Alexander and how he's pretending to fall. A true war criminal. Yes. That's where all of the focus should be. I think the rage should be dialed in. The most powerful thing. She should be like, you . I don't think they're going to care.

They're going to be focused on the game. I actually think that the president is going to find himself frustrated because when he thinks he's going to walk into this rocky, like, yeah. People are going to be like, move out the way. I'm here to see Jalen Brunson. I think that's going to be his experience, but giving him more power around the should he, shouldn't he? Who cares?

This is about the New York Knicks, who haven't been there in 27 years. This is somebody that's healthy. This is somebody that processes life in a healthy way, unlike me. You know? I've got it. I'm deranged. He's a boy from Queens. He might actually want to go.

I find that very hard to believe. Okay, you know what? I said it and then I was like, maybe not. So the Knicks are donating 750 tickets, I believe. To the finals? To the finals. God, you hate to hand it to Jim Dolan. What's a better case for Jim Dolan to sell the Knicks than, hey, it's never going to get better.

Go out into a blaze of charity and goodwill as the city is rioting on your behalf. Is there an unlimited amount of mega-rich New Yorkers who want to buy the Knicks? I mean, this is what I want to discuss. So like, what an incredible asset. If owning a sports team is the ultimate, ultimate vanity project for a super wealthy person, owning the Knicks is like, ha-ha. It's the number one most valued asset, I would argue. For sure.

Because, by the way, MSG is a sellout, regardless whether the NICs are good. It's gate attendance is always An inelastic demand because it's New York City And now you have the fact that they're actually good But even when they're not good, it's super cool Yes, but the people who show up at the garden Right, those faces that you see That Stephanie Rule actually recognizes

Because it's all of these masters of the universe These captains of industry One of the reason Tim, Tim Miller, thank you for being here by the way To be here, baby. Steph Always. I love being here. Stephanie knows rich people.

Yeah. Well, Tim. And it kind of enjoys their company, which is a big difference between me and Stephanie. Talking about sports team ownership and being in corporate boxes is a thing that makes me feel the most anti-capitalist. To this example, my friend has the box at the LSU Tigers game and always invites me. And I'm like, if I'm going to go to Baton Rouge on a Saturday night and have some whiskey and watch a football game, I want to be with the people.

I want to be among the people. I want somebody to spill their beer on me. I want to high-five a child that's up past his bedtime. I want to cuss at the other team and say STTDB, you know. And I don't want to sit around and have people asking me, like, what about the tariffs? In a fleece vest. I don't want to hear about the tariffs in a fleece vest, you know? And, like, that is kind of your world, though.

And you're good at navigating it, though, because they'll bring up the tariffs and then you'll make a little off-color joke. And, like, you'll have a tariffs take. You navigate it very well. Wow. How did that Scouting Report feel to you? I don't think that's the case. I don't think I just make it. I don't think I've ever made an off-color joke.

The funny thing about, I would actually say corporate boxes, you see when they've built all these new arenas, they're trying to make corporate boxes closer to the people because there's nothing worse, right? Like if you think about going to the coolest restaurant out there but saying we got the private room, it blows. Because it's like you're at this amazing place with the best energy ever and you're sitting in an insulated box.

So I think you're talking about two different things. The fan experience is less exciting and less fun if you're sitting in an isolated area. But you're also making the point, if you're going to a game, if you're going to a concert, you're there to experience that art, that sport, that live event. You sure, don't want to talk about EBITDA and profit margins.

I don't want to talk about EBITDA. Ever, actually. Ever, actually, ever. I hate the word EBITDA. Is that a word? Well, it's not a word. No, it's an acronym. Yes.

But the idea that Steph is, the type of person who goes to the Milken conference in which there are lots of MBA owners and lots of billionaires and there is this conversation around. So we are winning right now, we being this non-monolithic class of extraordinarily connected, wealthy, and informed people in the world of finance. I have to say that that way. Finance. Yeah. Steph, part of the reason I wanted to have you here with me and Tim is because the mentality of these folks, who are at that conference, this global conference, the people who are in these NBA arenas and elsewhere.

How do you describe them to people who are not decades steeped in finance? I think the thing that's amazing right now is the deference and latitude they give the president. And sort of before now, one could easily argue, part of what makes America so exceptional is that we respect the rule of law. is that we have three separate but equal branches of government. And you've got all these business leaders over the last few decades,

more and more who've spoken out publicly, who say, you know, like, we're leaders in culture and business, it's our fiduciary to explain the way the world works. And suddenly the cat got their tongue. Because now you've got a president who continues to push boundaries and blow through things. I mean, we do a segment on our show, White House for Sale. There's an unlimited amount of content.

It's so hard to pick even. Right. In this term, we're long past the days of, let me tell you, the stocks that Paul Pelosi traded yesterday. And let's talk about, you know, closing the carried interest loophole. That'd be nice, though. We could still do that. I'd love to talk about all those things. And we always have. But the latitude they're giving this administration. And when you talk to people, part of it is they're intoxicated by the access they have. They can call this president. They can call Howard Lutnik and get what they want and get what they need.

What's amazing to me is that they think they're going to get some sort of long-term loyalty from this president. He shows it day in and day out. Whatever serves him today. I mean, look at John Cornyn. John Cornyn, look at Bill Cassidy sitting there with egg on their face. What killed me two weeks ago was when Bill Cassidy, a minute after he loses his primary is, like, oh, by the way. I'm not feeling good about that war in Iran. Really, Bill? What changed in the last 48 hours about the situation in Iran other than you losing?

Right. These are senators, the United States senators. So a business leader would, though they won't make the argument out loud, they would say, who do they have to answer to? Right. Their fiduciary responsibility. They need to make sure their customers are still going, you know, doing business with them. Their employees aren't quitting and their shareholders are happy. So they would argue that that trifecta is their most important triangle and it doesn't behoove them to speak out against the president. So Kat got my tongue makes sense. But then last week, I was a cross-country flight to California. That's how that works.

And I was stuck sitting there watching cable news, which is great. We honor cable news. We're on cable news. But, like, personally, I usually don't watch like hours and hours in a row, right? No, you just watch 11 to 12 week nights, MS. Yeah, I just watch 11 to 12 on staff. Correct. Moving to 9 to 11 a.m.

That's right. Whatever's right before me. Yes, correct. And the Pablo Tech City is going to be on. But that's usually, that's about it. And so I'm watching CNBC. And it was just by accident There was the day that Andrew Osorkin is interviewing Bezos

And the cat got your tongue, like I said, I understand If Bezos is just like, you know, it's kind of crazy over there I've got this, I got all these businesses I've got the new wife, I've got the Venice wedding And like I've got my yacht And I'm just going to focus on that You know, that couldn't be me really I like to yap

But I would understand that But he didn't do that He goes on with Andrew Rossorkan and he's like You know Trump's really mellowed I think And Trump, and you got him handed to him. He's more disciplined. He's more disciplined.

I'm comparing him to his first term. And I think he is a more mature, more disciplined version of himself than he was in his first term. And, you know, again, I've worked with all the presidents. I will work with all the presidents. And I hope to do that going forward if they'll have me. But we need our business leaders to provide input. into the administration, regardless of who the president is. He has a couple good ideas, and when he has good ideas, you really have to hand it to him.

And I'm like, what, why are you doing that? That is humiliated. But just because this is the decoding I want to do, in your view, stuff, when Jeff Bezos is saying stuff like that, he is doing it because he is there also transacting. Or maybe he agrees. Or maybe he really likes Trump. Is it possible that he really likes Trump? Because I think he might really like Trump. So I would say a lot of them like that they have someone to call. I think a lot of them would say they like that they share an idea and maybe they get something out of it.

But I think Jeff Bezos is unique in that to me, his biggest most important business or gaping hole is Blue Origin. Okay. Blue Origin is, pun intended, light years behind SpaceX, right? This is costing gazillions of dollars. They don't have nearly the amount of government contracts or relationship with the government. that SpaceX does. And so he needs to make sure he's in good standing with the president, right?

Days after the Melania documentary debuted, right? Brett Ratner produced, Amazon paid tens of millions of dollars. Days after, who rolls up to Blue Origin headquarters? Pete Hagseth, with Jeff Bezos

shaking his hand. Right? Remember. And Bezos talked about how that was a good business decision in the same interview. And that wasn't quite right, actually. It did lose 59 million, which might be nothing.

But that's kind of a lot to me. But 59 million is Trump change in his mind, right? During Trump's first term, Jeff Bezos was a target of Donald Trump, right? Amazon was a target of Donald Trump. Bezos was a target of Donald Trump. I actually think it's why he continues to own the Washington Post. When people are like, he doesn't want to own the Washington Post, he's not interested. He knows that the Washington Post and the media is so important to Trump.

And so to be in good standing with Trump, I would say in his mind, being in the safe zone with Trump is good for him and good for his business. Now, you might say he's one of the richest men in the world. We could lose our democracy. We could lose our country. Doesn't that trump all of this? And that's a totally fair argument to be made. And to me, the psychology thing I'm more interested in, because you understand the money. I understand what these guys are motivated by.

That's why they're the richest people in history. But, you know, these guys are all so sensitive to criticism from everybody besides Trump. And it is so, I hate to use the P word for the second time on the podcast. But we can say it again thanks to, you know, Donald Trump winning. That's what the finance guy said. We can say the R word. We can say, it makes me feel like that they're boffees. It's just like you could sell how sensitive was to the Washington Post criticism in that interview with Andrew Ross Sorkin.

It's like all of these media journalists are making fun of me and saying, we're not doing a good job. Like, what am I supposed to do, run a charity? If I do my job right, the value to society and civilization from my for-profit companies will be much, much larger. Right. Then the good that I do with my charitable giving. He got very defensive in his backup. Donald Trump spent four years, like making fun of how he looked, like giving him a bad nickname, And now he grovels back to him.

Like, what's the point of having fuck you money? But the thing that I think is most immediately actionable when it comes to who's even persuadable anymore, what should people be aware of? Economically, in terms of just like the big headlines, it's the fact that we're talking on the same morning, Thursday, May 28th, when ProPublica releases this story, quote,

the White House intervened to get a $620 million deal for a company tied to Donald Trump Jr. And this is where I just read some ProPublica. When the Pentagon announced a $620 million loan last year to a small North Carolina startup linked to Donald Trump Jr., defense officials, and the company tried to tamped down suspicions of cronyism. The president's eldest son said through a spokesperson that he wasn't involved. The Pentagon said Trump Jr. played no role in the record-setting deal. The startup's founder told reporters that his company, Vulcan Elements, received no political favoritism. But interviews and defense department records reviewed by ProPublica show that the request to loan hundreds of millions of dollars to the firm linked to Trump.

Trump Jr. was made by Peter Navarro, a White House advisor to President Donald Trump and a friend of Trump juniors. And the reason all of this is particularly, I would say, relevant to what the public attention might be trained on is that there have been lots of stories about corruption and quid pro quoing and transactionality. But this particular story is apparently the first time that the awarding of a contract from a federal agency has been directly linked. to White House intervention. People from the White House, apparently, according to sources in the story,

said, quote, we have to get this done. And Peter Navarro, for those not familiar, is also a guy who appeared on Don Jr.'s show on Rumble to say this. Your father has done more, I guess it's nine months now, than presidents do in two terms. Well, Peter, as always,

Thank you very much for what you're doing in there. Thank you for what you've done to yourself and to your family standing up for us. Guys, make sure to check out, I went to prison so you won't have to. By Senior Counsel for Trade, Peter Navarro. Just a great friend, a great patriot, great American. Peter, thanks very much.

I look forward to seeing you again soon, buddy. Thanks, I'd rather for being there in my hardest, hardest of times. You know, when my back was against the wall, you had my back brother. It's my honor, my friend. Thank you. But Peter Navarro, just for those who are unfamiliar with his work, how should we remind people who this guy is?

So I'm going to quote, without naming the person's name, a member of Trump's first term, who said, at best, Peter Navarro is a whack-a-do and a kook. Peter Navarro was discovered by Jared Kushner during Trump's first term, because he did a Google or an Amazon search looking for someone. Anyone out there whose views on trade and tariffs

were in line with Donald Trump's. And after digging and climbing and going through and around the event... Correct. In 1997, where in the book, he quotes fake economists who are named, like if you take the name Peter Navarro

and mix up the letters, that's the names of the people who... He had fake quotes in the book. Ron Varra. There you go. Ron Varra. Ron Varra.

Okay. Navarro, Ronvara. So they then bring Peter Navarro into the first Trump administration. And let me be clear, he's an economist. Did you see him work with Steve Mnuchin? Steve Mnuchin said, absolutely not. Did you see him work with Gary Cohn?

Nope, he did not. They had to relegate him to go work in the Commerce Department under Wilbur Ross. And Wilbur may or may not have known that Peter Navarro was even there. The problem isn't necessarily, in many of these cases, the government getting involved in businesses, and in some cases it is, the problem is bet your bottom dollar that you check,

and somehow the Trump family or close associates are making money hand over fist in it. Yeah, and I've heard from people in business worlds who just were like, you know, fuck it. We decided to make Don Jr. a strategic advisor because we figured like that could help us get a government contract. Like this is happening all the time. Don Jr. is an advisor to both Kalshi and Polly Market. Like, does anyone realize how? And it was funny because I asked. And the administration's trying to interfere. Minnesota is trying to ban prediction markets in their state.

Back when I was a Republican, that's how things were as laboratories of democracy. If red states wanted to do one thing, blue states wanted to do another, that was pretty essential to what the worldview was. And now the administration is trying to intervene to prevent Minnesota from passing a law for their state. Well, I wonder why. Maybe it's because the president's son is making money. When I was at NBA All-Star weekend, they had a tech conference the day leading into the weekend. And I interviewed Cal She, Polymarket, Fanduel, Draft Kings on stage. And before, I can't remember whether it was Polymarket or Cal She, but it was someone on their team.

And I brought up, I'm like, it was offstage, but I brought up like, so, you know, Don Jr., advising both your companies. And the person was like, oh, he didn't invest much money. I'm like, no shit, Sherlock. I didn't think he wrote you guys a big fat check. Like, no one thought that. Whatever you've given, whatever equity stake you've given him, whatever advisory role, I don't think he's had to reach into his pocket one single day. What you guys are doing is paying him, is giving him some upside.

So you get no regulation and a clear path to build your mega business, which is exactly what's happening. Can we add one more story that was from last night that I have to get off my chest, me and stuff we're talking about on the way in? Please. As you follow the account, Unusual Wales. I do. Unusual Wales is, you know, not, you know, I don't know if they have the same vetting process that ProPublica does, but they've done some good analysis. And we're kind of like a key account and, like, prompting, like the Pelosi tracker

and this idea that too many, you know, members of Congress are investing. Which is true. Both sides of the aisle. But the story about Trump's investing that that came out. My colleague Joe Pertico, like, you know, crunch the numbers on this. Trump has invested more money this year in the stock market than all members of the House and Senate did combined last year in 12 months, right? This was just for the first quarter. So in the first quarter of this year, Trump's invested more than the entire Congress did last year.

So if you're concerned about Congress investing in the stock market and the corruption, you would think you would be concerned about Donald Trump. Here's this one from last night. Dell. And you might know that Michael Dell himself put money into, what is it, the Trump? The baby bonds. The baby bonds, the Trump bonds. You know, so he put his own money into something that Trump could put his name on.

A huge amount of money that can serve a huge port. That would be great for lots of people. So these are the Trump accounts in which he's going to give 25 million eligible children apparently. But again, in a free country, you know, you would call them baby bonds. You'd call them something else. You wouldn't name them after Dear Leader. They're not Kim Jong-un bonds or Trump bonds. And let me tell you, so when I ask people, like in the investment community about this,

they all roll their eyes and they're like, ah, you've got to play ball. It is what it is. Not really. It's a 250th year of the country. We've never done this before. Business leaders have managed to succeed and make money and have good EBITDA without putting the president's name and face on everything that they did throughout all of history. So that's actually not true. Anyway, here's the Dell story. Dell just won a five-year $9.7 billion Pentagon Software Agreement for the U.S. military. I don't know about you guys. Maybe the Dell is the best company for that. I haven't used any

Dell products in quite a while now. I have to imagine there are probably other competitors in the space. before they got that $9.7 billion contract, Trump bought Dell multiple times since February 10th for more than $5 million. So Trump has put more than $5 million into Dell right before they got the contract. And in case you're thinking, you know, maybe that's a coincidence,

maybe Trump's financial advisor is focused on that at the blind trust. On May 8th, right before the contract was received, said, So go out and buy a Dell. They're great. Dude, you're getting a Dell.

Not the singer. Dell. The unusual rails, right? It's unusual. I think it's a little more than unusual. It's right there. It's text. But to now complete the circle, right?

So this deal with the rare earth's Vulcan, which is based in North Carolina, estimates of its valuation grew tenfold after the deal was announced. And Trump Jr., Don Jr., venture capital firm took a stake of undisclosed size in Vulc in about three months before the Pentagon announced the deal. Sounds like he just got his room upgraded on his honeymoon.

He just went up to the presidential suite after that. But by point being that this is not merely do the save for my friend, it's like they're actively profiting in ways that anybody who wants to say, and I get the instinct, all of these MS now people crying wolf is just sort of like the wolf is on the table right now. And it's just like showing you its fucking portfolio. And it's like, I don't know. So what are we waiting for? And honestly, like, think about all the coverage Pelosi got.

I was just, I was looking at the Dell thing last night and I was like, media criticism gets kind of tired at this point. But just, you know, if this was Mitt Romney or if this was like, you know, Nancy Pelosi, it really would be leading the nightly news type thing. It could be leading David Muir. It would be the front page of the newspaper. There'd be investigators. There'd be followups. Like, wait a minute. How did Dell get the contract?

Like, why did you say invest in them? And it's like Trump has now created this bubble where it seems like he's very public and it seems like he's doing a lot of media stuff but he has all of these like newsmax and, you know, Mike Lindell TV, people ask him questions so he doesn't get questions from real reporters. There's a lot of other news crazy shit happening

like, you know, the war in Iran, et cetera. Or him going to the NBA files. Yeah, it's hard to decide which corruption to pick. The idea, though, that people don't know or don't care, I don't think is true. I think the investment community is sort of like they're making so much money and it's working out so well. They're just like, if you can't beat him, join them.

And they're the ones who are panicked. They're like, oh, there are these crazies like Mamdami who's coming for us, blah, blah, blah. I would argue, no, it's the mega wealthy, getting mega wealthier, right? If you take the Forbes 200 at the end of the Biden administration, and obviously they were really rich, they're on the Forbes 200,

and look at their net worth now, it has exploded. That's not the case for most other people. And so what's amazing to me is they kind of look at this anti-capitalism sentiment. Like these people are crazy. Like the anti-capitalist, the eat the rich sentiment is so real and visceral in this country.

Right? Like I lived in New York and I worked on Wall Street during the Occupy Wall Street. This is that tenfold. And I think what they don't realize is, as much as you like making all, all this money during the Trump administration. The more this mega grift is happening, the more the other side is going to come for capital.

Can I just rant about this first? I want to say one thing before Tim Rance, which is the notion that they're coming for capitalism, the people truly dismantling capitalism are these people right here. This is the point. Capitalism requires competition and the rule of law as a set of regulatory governance practices. And when the people are like, this shit is not the free market, it's not capitalism. This is like classic corrupt autocrat shit. And when people come for capitalism, it's because you people did not actually defend it.

They're turning me into an anti-Campus. This is it in a nutshell, right? Like, I love free markets. I'm as pro-capitalism as they come. What's actually transpiring isn't that. I think the point. is, yes, there is and has been corruption in government, under Joe Biden, under every presidency, but right now we're talking about true tonnage in a way that is unprecedented. It's like

people don't know what a billion is relative to a million. Even that very basic math question is like hard to fully grasp. And in the same way, we're looking at this, again, this giant wolf on the table who is stealing all this money. Allegedly and laughing is everybody is just not only complicit but also profiting. Okay, so then here's the question. Tell me the name of the Democrat who would like to be in leadership or who is running for office, who is writing an op-ed or who is coming on television and saying, this is what's happening.

It's deeply unethical. It's anti-democratic. It is currently legal. Here's what I am going to do. Here's what the Democratic Party is going to do if you vote for us in the midterms and we regain control. Tell me the name of the Democrat

who's laid that out for us. I'm not just really quick. I'm not sure it's all legal. I mean, some of this is foreign money. But I'm even giving them the benefit of the doubt, right? I'm trying to be like as generous as I am in this, right? I'm just saying it isn't actually legal for the UAE to bribe the president's family.

So let's go even further. Let's say, right? Fine. Then let's say this is illegal. And come November, if you vote for me, this is what we're going to do. Look, this is going to be the job of the Oversight Committee.

Robert Garcia was really good on Epstein. I think it's going to be his job in the House. Who is the big name Democrat that has, like, taking this on? Like, there isn't one, and they should, and I don't understand why. And I think it's really their job in 2027. How to persuade is the question.

How do you message this? I need to say, by the way, he's not going to be in charge forever. And if you're one of these rare earth companies, or if you're Dell, and you think that you're going to have a government contract in 2029, well, you've got to come turn over all of your documents right now.

And that's their job in 2027. J.P. Morgan was one of the only massive companies that didn't write a big check for the ballroom. And Jamie Diamond said publicly on the record, I'm not going to write a check for the ballroom because when there's a new administration, they will come for me because this is, I don't know if he said bribery, but he said something along the lines of, this will not pass the sniff test. I don't want to touch it. Life is long. This person won't be president forever. Moments after he said that is probably when Trump said, I'm suing you. Well, but this is, the whole thing has like a spirit Halloween after October 31st kind of vibe.

It's like, everyone knows that this is the last days. It kind of feels that way. And those who are not acting as such are trying to get all these discounts on these costumes that they may never wear again. This is the thing, though. It's like who is actually playing. the longer game and who is merely taking the cash also available on this table. And so we're left at this moment, and we don't even have time to really get into this, but we're left with a vacuum of moral, let alone legal and ethical leadership.

And so it turns out that the literal pope ends up being this person that everyone's like, is the pope now a truly radical figure because he's talking about in some way, regulating the masters of the universe. And it's like how refreshing that there is someone who is not bought and sold by this administration, who is not sensitive to the same pressures as everyone else in this country, whether they're trying to figure out, okay, how do I increase my growth? Pope is not radical. This whole idea that he's being painted as such is nonsensical. And so I think when people try to make that argument, you just have to take them back to facts. And that's the thing with quote unquote going after Trump. The truth isn't bias. It's just the truth. Some people just don't

want to hear it. And so as it relates to what the Pope is trying to do, the Pope is trying to raise our level of decency, right? The Pope devoted his adult life, most of his adult life, to serving the poor in Latin America, this boy from Chicago. And I just think we have to keep going back to just covering the facts and the truth because it's all right there. And what we just need to do is show it to the American people. And what the Democrats need to do is not just say Trump sucks. They need to say, here's the path forward and here's what we're going to offer.

I love that the lives are coming home to God. We could maybe use a good. Joe Biden was Catholic, but kind of talked about it more earlier in his career. The Dems could use a 2028 person that talks a little bit of a little bit of about God. The Pope doesn't talk about God that much. What the Pope talks about is decency and living in service of others. The interesting thing about the Pope and I think why is resonating, Pablo, is in part because of this moral vacuum of leadership, like, we're going through this period where everybody feels like, screw it. Like, why do I have to, you know, care about ethics? Like,

this, you know, the Masters of the Universe, the Big Tech CEOs, the President of the United States, like, I'll get away with whatever they want. Like, maybe that should be my model. like the Pope is offering this countermodel. The other thing that the Pope is doing is at some ways he's like quasi-codes liberal. But he's like, he's still the Pope, right? He's still pro-life. You know, he still, you know, has all of these values that are small-see conservative, right? Whether it be family values or traditional values or eternal, you know, kind of going back through history values.

He's literally the head of the Catholic Church. He's not jumping on fads, right? That's the glory of it. It doesn't need to be coded left. It gives him, I do think that credibility that we have flattened everything, particularly in the last 10 years, into like, oh, you're a MAGA or you're an anti-Maga. And it's like you can dismiss the comments of somebody that is in the other tribe, even if they're making sense as part of this never-ending, you know, online political forever war that we have.

And like, he's not part of it, right? He levitates above it. largely the Magnifica Humanitas, which is the encyclical. It's about AI, and that's incredibly important and its own, of course, forever series. But the thing that I loved that Pope Leo, the 14th wrote, was, quote... Did you read all 22,000 words, or did you have chat GPT summarized it? I certainly did not have chat GPT summarize it. I did the thing I did while going to Catholic school growing up, which is...

I selectively skimmed. But this is the part that I landed up. And then wrote a whole essay on the one part that you'd just see. And here is the part. The value of persons, however, does not depend on what they achieve or produce. There are rights that apply to everyone simply by virtue of being human. The various kinds of job insecurity, fragmented career paths, and automation must not be evaluated solely in terms of efficiency, but in relation to the dignity of the worker, the right to sufficient remuneration and the genuine possibility of participating in society.

end quote, which in a normal year, normal administration, kind of reads maybe cliche. But in this context, even when we just spent all this time talking about, talking not about profit and growth and the green arrow feels relatively radical. And like the fucking Pope, like we don't need, I would say, for this to be a Democrat-owned issue. My hope is that this is maybe the most basic test that we are taking and also failing because it turns out the Pope is, he's seizing on ground that people are. But then let decency be the nonpartisan issue that actually helps political leaders or people running for office or business leaders rise above this. And it's available for them to take, is my point. Yes.

This territory, Tim, is basically open for them. And they can do it by, even if they've made mistakes before. As a fallen person myself, as a sinner, here's my favorite part. Is someone going to hell? Just make clear. A sinner today, you don't have to be a sinner tomorrow. That's right. And Catholics like Pablo and I, here's the best thing.

We'll take you back. All cradle Catholics. Are you going to church on Sunday, though? We'll talk about it after. For an algorithm, an error is a flaw to be corrected. For a person, however, an error can be a catalyst. for profound change. A person's future is not calculable,

but depends on one's freedom, elevated by the inexhaustible grace of God and on the relationships cultivated. I love that. I love that. My favorite clip, maybe, of the last year, speaking of Christ and its opposite. Was it on the Bulwark podcast?

And his opposite. It was actually in an interview with noted, conservative, Ross Douthit, and this was Peter Thiel. One of these masters of the universe, who I just want to remind you, did say this. I guess where I end up is I still think we should be trying AI and that the alternative is just total stagnation. So, yeah, there's sort of all sorts of interesting things going to happen with.

Okay, maybe drones in a military context are combined with AI, and, okay, this is kind of scary or dangerous or dystopian, or it's going to change things. but if you don't have AI, wow, there's just nothing going on. AI is better, it's better than the alternative, and the alternative is nothing at all. Because here's one place where the stagnationist arguments are still reinforced. The fact that we're only talking about AI, I feel it is always an implicit acknowledgement that but for AI, we are like in almost total stagnation.

You're deeply invested in Palantir, in military technology, in technologies of surveillance, in technologies of warfare, and so on, right? And it just seems to me that when you tell me a story about the Antichrist coming to power and using the fear of technological change to sort of impose order on the world, I feel like that Antichrist would maybe be using the tools that you were building, right? Like, wouldn't the Antichrist be like, great, you know, we're not going to have any more technological progress. But I really like what Palantir has done so far. You would prefer the human race to endure, right?

You're hesitating. Yes? I don't know. I would, I would. This is a long hesitation. There's so many questions. Should the human race survive? I mean, this whole thing goes on like that for a while.

I am the person who is warning you about the antichrist. I am also the person who is bringing you artificial intelligence. I am also the person refusing to be regulated. I am also the person who now gets to set the standard on what is godly enough. I mean, this is a symptomatic notion that Peter Thiel is expressing, but he is one of many people who's profiting while also saying crazy shit. At least the Russian oligarchs just took all. of that money and bought really, really, really big boats and the hottest women ever to go on those

boats. At least that's all they did. Our oligarchs are saying, we're going to run so much more than that. That's where I'm like, wait, what? What do you want to get involved in? I would be okay if it was just a whole lot of money and you were spending it on a boat somewhere in the Mediterranean. But this, this is some scary stuff. I suppose that we should probably close here by referring to the T-shirt that does bring all these topics together. The I'm not the Antichrist T-shirt, which is raising a lot of questions that are already answered by the shirt.

It's one of the great, speaking of defying regulation, one of the great unlicensed t-shirts that I've seen. The Nix made the finals on the day the Pope declared a holy war on AI Monday, May 25th, 2026. Did someone actually make that t-shirt? There's a human hand that I'm seeing

in my version of it, which I guess can be faked quite easily at this point. It depends on how many fingers. Pablo Torre finds out is produced by Walter Avaroma, Maxwell Carney, Ryan Cortez, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, Neely Lohman, Rob McCray, Matt Sullivan, Claire Taylor, and Chris Tuminello. Studio engineering by RG Systems, sound design by Andrew Bursick, Digital Strategy by Bailey Carlin and Andrew Northern, theme song, as always, by John Bravo. And we'll talk to you next time.