Pablo Torre Finds Out - Share & Litigate & Tell with Katie Nolan and Michael Cruz Kayne

Episode Date: December 5, 2024

Influencers are finally suing each other for making seemingly identical content. Should we be laughing or crying (hint: we’re doing both)? Ben Affleck thinks that AI will never replace movies. Is he hot and wrong, or just hot? And how is everybody not depressed? Also: if Ray Romano and Dan Le Batard became one person, cryptic births, Clean Girls, Ding Dong Primple Pants, and Michael’s finest career credit. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out. I am Pablo Torre. And today we're going to find out what this sound is. Is Ben Affleck the boy who cried Dick Wolf? Right after this ad. You're listening to Giraff King's Network. Eric Ride Home told me that he loves when we're on together because it seems like the three of us, there's nowhere else we'd rather be. And that we're really enjoying ourselves. Who said this? Eric Ride Home, creator of such television. greatness as PTI, pardon the interruption, around the horn.

Yep. There's got to be another. I love those shows. Oh, yeah, yeah, of course, highly questionable. Oh, can I show you a picture of somebody that was on date? Oh, and this? Oh, that's right. Hi noon.

I was watching Dateline last night, and I saw a guy on there. And I was like, that, yeah, I mean, I'm a woman. Yeah. And, um... What crime will I be sucked into in real life? Let's find out. And I said, this is the halfway point on a spectrum where the polls are Ray Romano and Dan Levitard

Whoa That, okay, let's just show Exactly right Wow It looks like The disguise that they used in Argo It looks fake It does

But I was like that is That is Dan Leb Romano That's right Yeah it looks like prosthetics Circa 2002 Who was this gentleman? No idea I barely

I was falling asleep Romano and we put this on to go to bed and I was like hold on I gotta take a picture that to show Pablo Because I told Dan exactly what I just said to you Soder It might yeah my two I was in bed with yes not Levitart Well And he didn't react in the way I wanted I really wanted a like wow that's exactly right So I said I'm gonna take a picture and show it to Pablo tomorrow

I am here to validate that that is exactly right Thank you What was that guy I have no idea I think he was in the Dateline episode I think he was either I think he was probably like a prosecutor I have no idea. I don't know. I truly didn't listen.

That feels like one of the stock characters. That's someone who's going to be on a Dayline episode. That's right. Right. Prosecutor and Investigator. Usually somebody who's just repeating exactly what the interviewer just said to them. Dateline is incredibly popular still. Much better than 2020 if we're taking sides.

Are we ranking the original True Crime Podcasts? I mean, that's Dateline. So Dateline has a recurring cast of characters like Keith Morrison. They'll host an episode. It'll be like Keith Morrison's episode where he'll do the VO and then he'll do like the interstitial shots of him walking through the crime scene

and then he'll do the sit-down interviews. 2020 has that recurring cast and they just sit and do the exposition throughout the episode as if they're being interviewed and that blurs a line for me that I'm like you're just a reporter why don't you just report it instead of making it look like you're being interviewed

that's like a producer's choice Yeah, and I think it's a dumb choice, so that's why I'm team dateline. You know Keith Morrison's face. The best. You know who he's, whose uncle? He's beautiful. He looks like a guy who is also wearing like a Keith Morrison mask at this point, which is a compliment. He looks like Glenn Close, winged victory of samothrace.

What's that? The second one. It did autocomplete in my Google search. It's a headless piece of art. It's Nike. It's the goddess Nike. Oh, yeah, I know art. I know art.

I know art. I know all art. But would you show just because I do feel like Glenn Close. Oh, the Glenn Close call. Yeah, Glenn Close is right. Right away. Absolutely. A true close call.

Right. Winged victory of Samoth Race. Famous hell and a stick marble statue. Is this new? Is it? It seems like a new color. I'm actually colorblind. It's blue, I think.

You're colorblind for real. Yeah. How do you get dressed? I mean, I'm not like crushing it. No. No. But how do you do it? Mostly like jeans.

Okay, so colorblind. How colorblind are we? So I can see a lot of colors. Thousands and thousands of colors. But you can see like millions of colors. I can see. Yeah. Regular people can see millions.

Regular people doesn't sound as complimentary as I can see thousands of colors. But I can see fewer colors. Okay. So I can see a lot of, not most colors, but enough colors. What do you struggle with? Greens? All kinds of shit. Okay.

Okay. So like the, there's red back to the circles. Yep. Okay, but whatever the other thing is next to circles. Blue, and then that's yellow green. If you told me that was blue or purple, I wouldn't know. And yellow, green, I wouldn't know. What does it look like to you, the yellow?

Like, I would just, I would say either yellow or green being unsure. It's both. So you'd be right. Well, great. Never mind. So you seem color fine to me. Where does this become a problem for you? Do you play video games?

It becomes a problem. I mean, the only place that's actually a problem is when you go to museums and they have those colorblind things and they're like, look here, do you see the number? And I'm like, there's no number there. and my kid's like, it's an eight, you know, moron. Yeah, I don't see it. You should stop going to museums. My kids are mean also.

Those are the two problems. Then when would you encounter the winged victory of Samothrace? Well, you'd have to be, I think, at the Louvre. At the Louvre. Yeah. I feel like it does. There's no head on it. It's a headless.

I feel like if you took Glenn close and the texture of that part of the blouse or whatever. So you're just saying he's wrinkly and old. Yeah, kind of. Yeah, yeah. But like chiseled wrinkles. He does have interesting wrinkles. There's John Kerry in this. Yes, for sure.

A little yes, for sure. John Carrey and Glenn Close. Yeah, I like that. He is the John Carrey and Glenn Close of Ray Romano and Dan Levitars. Yes. Indeed. I think we're going to start with my topic. Yes, I think we should.

That sounds great. It's a lot. It's a great topic. It's a lot. It's a lot. I'm pretty sure neither of you read the whole thing. Who could have? I read most of the headline.

It was a very long story about a beige influencer. I don't know what to, I couldn't get any further than... It's so good. I started scrolling and you know the little thing on the side that tells you how far you've gone. It hardly moved when I was going and I was like, I'm never going to make it. Once I saw how small it was, I was like, this is something Pablo can tell me. Yeah. The headline aforementioned is bad influence.

It is on Theverge.com. Subhead, one Amazon influencer makes a living posting content from her beige home. But after she, this is sounding like a 2020 sort of setup now. But after she noticed another account, hawking the same minimal aesthetic, a rivalry spiraled into a first-of-its-kind lawsuit. can the legal system protect the vibe of a creator? And what if that vibe is basic? So it's a landmark case. It's a great setup.

I love this story. It's about, yeah, a landmark case seemingly in the world of influencer, intellectual property, plagiarism. These are two Amazon influencers. And to define what that is, that's just people who order off of Amazon and then tell you this is good, this is bad? So they, yes, but also they have the ability to. create a storefront. This is scare quotes. Amazon storefront. I think we all know what that is. I don't know, but I feel like I'm in my bones. I figure it out. If I say the links in my Amazon storefront, you can go click on like Katie Nolan's Amazon storefront and it'll be like, here's the jeans

she's talking about. Here's the can opener. If everybody could be Oprah with her favorite things. Right, but it's a website. On Amazon. That you get a share of profit-wise. Oh, yeah. That's right. If in fact, people click on your storefront to buy it from your store. Gotcha. Okay. So this storefront operator, her name is Sydney Nicole Gifford. She's 24 years old, living in Minneapolis. She sued Alyssa Sheel, who was 21 years old in Austin, Texas. What the aforementioned Sydney Nicole Gifford did was hire an attorney

since cease and desist orders to Alyssa Sheel because she claimed that Sheel had participated in, quote, willful, intentional and purposeful infringement of her copyright, dozens of posts across platforms like TikTok and Instagram, posts in the case of Sydney Cole Gifford, that look like this. My vanity was needing some organization help, so I partnered with Target to share these bathroom and storage products that work so perfectly for makeup and countertop organization.

This is the prettiest trash bin, so I had to grab that. Then I found this spinning turntable, which I thought would be so perfect for some of my skin care and fragrances. Sticking with all the gold tones, I also had to get this candle. For the other side, I got a vanity. organizer and countertop mirror.

I love how all these pieces match each other and really go with the glam room aesthetic and everything's on my target storefront. And so the plaintiff is claiming Gifford. That's Gifford. That is Gifford. There's a pattern. You can tell she's got that aesthetic that we all know. There's a pattern of copying.

Basically days or weeks, the allegation goes, after she would share photos or videos promoting an Amazon product. Sheel, the defendant, would share her own content doing the same thing. And this is what Shield's content would look. like as an example. Oh my god, can't wait. Amazon Black Friday home finds that are actually worth the money. Starting off with my personal favorite, my makeup vanity is on major deal right now. This is hands down one of my favorite items in my entire home.

It has so much storage and it is absolutely stunning and would look great in any space. Nothing makes me happier than opening this door and seeing how organized it is. These organizers are truly game-changing. Having a towel warmer has truly changed my life. It is truly an 11 out of 10. Next are these curtains. We have them in every single room of our house. I think they look so lux.

I just can't get over how much these. You're familiar with this genre, though, this type of person. Yes, but it's just, I don't mean to sidetrack. That depresses me so much because the language of it, the happiest I've ever felt is when I opened this drawer. This is the greatest thing that's ever been in my life. I have three children. This is the happiest day of my life is when this Bartesian was delivered. You're saying it's a bit of a hard sell.

It's crazy. The fact that that works on anybody makes me feel uncomfortable. comfortable to just always go. This is, oh my God, you guys, this changed my life. This is a glasses case where I put in my glasses. And inside this, it cleans, is a cloth that cleans my glasses. Truly, I'm a different person having found these two together. You have to get this.

It says nice to see you inside. I am going to buy that now. You can decide what I understand. I understand what you're saying, though, that sense of like you two can have access to the great street. of happiness. You can dip your fingers in if only you buy these luxe curtains. So it

comes inside of this archetype which I was not familiar with in this specific way until this story which is the clean girl. You've never heard of the aesthetic of the clean girl. You're familiar. Yes. I spend a lot of time online, Pablo. It's why my mentals are the way that they are. Can you explain

what a clean girl is? Image-wise, to me, the first thing I picture is a slicked back bun or ponytail with very groomed brows and dewy-looking skin. And everything is very clean lines. I guess for your home, it would be like all the picture frames on your house are the same size with the same matting and they all match. Very few colors.

Yes, a lot of beige, a lot of neutrals. Minimalist. Yeah. It's a current, I feel like, micro trend on the Internet. Yes. It promotes quote-unquote self. care, comfort, and looking put together. Yes.

The most famous clean girl, if you were wondering, is perhaps Haley Bieber. And there are many such people in the Haley Bieber coaching tree. It turns out... I always said Alex Cooper. Well, okay, yes, yes, a current practitioner, a master of the forum, perhaps. Gifford is claiming, though, in this lawsuit that in the course of 70 pages of side-by-side screenshots, you can clearly see that she posts stuff and then shield the defendant is copying her.

We can see a couple of just side-by-side still frames here. Again, it's the gallery wall, black and white photo with a black frame. They both have this, yeah, this sort of look. As we cycle through, we see yet another example. Oh, this is my favorite part. What? It's a tattoo. So at a certain point in the story, you realize, as there is this back and forth about,

no, no, no, how can I possibly be held accountable for embodying an aesthetic that is not simply Giffords to claim? You learn that Sheel has gotten a flower tattoo. that is disturbingly akin to Gifford's flower tattoo, same spot on their arm. I guess what's weird about this too goes into the elbow broke. At this point in the story, what I'm thinking is, Gifford's first, right? Yes. So Giffords's like, I got this tattoo. First is what sense.

I mean, first of the two of them, relatively first. She is like, buy all this stuff. And so this gal goes, okay. And she does it. And then she's like, hey, this stuff I bought, you all should buy the stuff I bought. Gifford, this is a success. You did it. The thing you wanted to do, you did.

Right. It's weird to me to be like, well, hang on, someone bought the stuff that I said to buy and then told other people to buy it. That doesn't seem right. So at the core of it is the question of how can you possibly claim that you are the originator of a style that you yourself have derived from this larger recurring conceit of, we're all trying to be Haley Bieber. or it turns out in this very particular archetype,

Kim Kardashian, who turns out, a bit of a twist of the story to be established as the actual originator of a lot of this. Oh, because her house is boring as fuck. Right. Have you seen Kim Kardashian's house? I know you've been to her house. But it's just like, it's just very sad and cold-looking.

Neutral is the term that they like to embrace. Boring. It's the, it's the ab. absence of um like warmth it's the absence of anything in of anything kind of focally interesting so it's the absence

of uh of taste of a personal of a personality it's an absence of like my of injecting myself into my home decor like listen you're talking to a lady who's got a blank wall because she's overwhelmed by the idea of hanging anything on it not because I think it's like a nice cleanest

that like I know I'm no expert on this stuff but like it's hard to say like that's She stole that from me when what that is is like a blank wall. Right, right. So what's happening... Or a gallery wall. It's a very common thing.

Right. We also in our house have four pictures on a wall. Watch out. Did I... Do I... Do I steal it? You better have a lawyer. But even if we were to grant, though, that they're both very, very similar to each other.

The legal precedent here is interesting. It references a lawsuit that it was actually a case in which Nike... So the famous, this is sports, we're a sports show. Yes. The famous jumpman logo that Nike made popular of Michael Jordan extending his arm out, legs splayed. It turns out that that was originally photographed in 1984 by this guy, and this is a strange name, but it's co-C-O, Rentmeister.

Great. Co-rentmeister. I love that. I love that. Definitely not the name of child invents for himself when he's asked at movie theater, sir. I'm co. What's your name? Co-rentmeister says that he photographed Michael Jordan in that.

pose and that Nike then reshot it with Michael Jordan and did that pose in their own advertising. This is the original co-rentmeisters. The leg is bent a little more than it is in the... You see the right leg being bent to Padmore. And Nike, of course, looks like this. Yes. Well, yes, the leg a little straighter, the arm a little straighter. Perfected in that way, optimized in that way, you might even say. The judge did rule that Nike had no liability for this. Because you can't. what Nike won on the basis of was this court finding that the images were not substantially similar because the photographer didn't own the pose. Like how can you possibly copyright this pose?

And that only creative choices like angle of photograph and camera shutter speed could be protected, which is interesting. But the point is, a judge gets to be an art critic. And in this case, what we're waiting on is the judge to determine, is the thing that these people are making a creative decision? that can be protected as as precedent suggests. And all of it speaks to what the fuck people are being incentivized to do. Like the thing about all of this is that, and this is a recurring theme, I think, on this show,

the internet and its economy promised a great multiplying of sensibilities and tastes and different ideas. And instead it incentivized homogeneity. And so here are people just doing what this new economy is instructing them to do. And simultaneously now claiming what I am doing, though, because I am doing it, I care about this, this is me. They are claiming that this is worthy of legal protection. And this will be a landmark case if, in fact, it is ruled in favor of Gifford against Sheel. Now, I'm no copyright lawyer, but I don't think they'll possibly rule in favor of whatever. the first lady's name was, and I don't think so.

I just can't see how you would. Oh, do we have more? Because I do want, I need more. If you're in the jury pool for this, you may be lucky enough to this go to trial to see. Now, see, captions are, I guess, to me, a number one indicator of if you're copying. I've seen a lot of, not to get distracted,

but I've seen a lot of this on the internet over the last year or two of someone alleging that someone stole someone else's content. And a lot of the times, the nail in the coffin, And for me is I'll look and I'm like, oh, same exact caption. They took the same exact caption of the post and posted it on there. And they're not usually in a legal battle.

It's just someone going like, hey, this girl's copying everything I do. But this, the captions I can't read them, even with my glasses on. The captions aren't the same. But they clearly aren't the same. They're wearing the same sweater. It looks like. But it's a sweater from Amazon. Aren't we all wearing the same sweater?

But it's also like phone covering the face and the same. Same way. We all do that when we take a picture of ourselves. Right leg angled. We all do that when we're taking a picture of ourselves in the mirror. I guess the way I feel is if you go on to Instagram right now, you will find a billion people doing this exact thing. I think at least the first hurdle you have to clear. And I don't think this is sufficient to win this lawsuit.

But the first hurdle I would imagine you have to clear is if I didn't exist, no one else would be doing this. But in fact, if both these women were like, you know, vaporized at this exact. Wow, he just murdered two ladies. You could find two new of this. They're also not even selling the same products. This one's selling, I think, the mirror, her most used object in her house, and that sweater. They're selling the same sweater. This is also, just to be clear about how this all works is you see a photo of somebody,

and on these storefronts, the products are basically tagged so that you can shop the look. I want that sweater. I want that mirror. I want this Chris Evans and Knives out. Sweater kind of deal. Cable knit, I think, is the more commonly. It is worth pointing out here that the model in the product shot does look also like she is now. Is she stealing it? Is she stealing it?

So part of this is about an alleged loss of income, right? So Gifford is claiming that she would post this thing. She'll very often would replicate it. And she would be able to see in a data-driven way the money taken out of her pocket because somebody else was allegedly doing the same thing and competing for the same exact customers. That just feels like the world. I mean, I sell oranges.

Wait, now you're selling oranges? What the fuck, dude? I sell oranges. But if there's enough oranges, the other guy's going to start selling them too. Can sheer naked consumerism be an artistic creative choice to be protected legally?

In a world in which everybody who's a creator and influencer is also a storefront operator in which they're selling products as their actual main goal. That is the legal scholarship that we're watching develop. Which people have been, by the way, people have been waiting for because this is, of course, these complaints are rampant. It's not just these two people are the first to have this complaint.

It's just that Gifford actually took the step of copywriting her stuff. And how? What do you mean by that? Yeah. So here is... What do you mean? What do you mean by this? She registered her social media post with the U.S. Copyright Office, an unusual step according to the story, not taken by most influencers.

You can just copyright anything you want? How much does it cost? This post that you posted has you in it. So if you're not in the one that I made, then it's different. Isn't it mine different? This is her claiming that her hair was dyed from black to brown. Oh my God.

On September 27th, 2023, and that the defendant, on December 2nd, 20203, did the same thing. Also in her car. I mean, listen, that's what a trend is. Like, I'm seeing a lot of blondes currently. go Brunette and be very dramatic about it. Side note. They're very, they're being very like, oh my God, my hair is so dark, which is like, yeah, all right, that's what Brunette is.

But it's a trend. You know, a couple months ago, there was a trend of, I think it was called cowboy copper. Same thing with like nails. There's like nail trends. But it doesn't mean that you're copying as much as it means you're following what you're being literally influenced to do. So I just have a hard time with all of this in general. Copyright law in general is very confusing to me. I sympathize somewhat with a defendant because it's a human being. But the thing that I brought in to talk about today, which we'll get to you later, is AI. And the idea of, like, I don't, so I guess what I'm trying to think through in my own mind is where I draw the line.

But I don't draw it here. Does she claim, like, I was making hundreds of thousands of dollars. Now I'm making tens. Right. She was making like $600 a week. I'm going to be mad that we're talking about this. So the proxy answer I will give is that they were both able to make. buy new homes as a result of their Amazon storehouse. I mean, what's up with money? What's going on with

money? How does money work? Cancel this. We both bought new beige homes. Where? In the markets that they're from? In outside of Minneapolis, uh, and Austin, Texas. Both lovely, lovely cities. Well, Austin's sort of. It's changing. It's different, but it's lovely. But it's lovely. I don't think it's weird anymore. I don't, um, yeah, I just, I can't, maybe I don't understand it. I'd love to have Sydney on the pod. Sydney, if you're there, pop off in the, pop off in the comments. I'd love to have a house, actually. But I'm having trouble sympathizing with her

only because it seems like what she does is both easy to replicate, no offense. And the goal of her channel, or whatever you call it, is to get people to buy the stuff. There's also a sense of like, you know, entrepreneurship, right, that people like to embody when they're influencers.

It's like, I did it myself. I took my life into my life, my own hands, and then sort of slamming the door behind you to be like, and don't you do it? I used to be one of the hosts of, I don't even know if it was a show, on Amazon.com. If you went to Amazon.com, the website. There'd be like a little video pop in the corner with a fellow who'd be like, you like, spatulas? Guess what, jerk.

I got a spatula. You're going to freaking love. That was you? I did that for a while. I don't know how long I did it for. Good money? They paid pretty well. Or did you make money off of how many products were bought during your...

I don't think anyone ever. I don't think I sold a single item. I couldn't believe. that they didn't fire me because I would, they would give me... Wait, you'd be like the Microsoft paperclip, but for Amazon Doc. Where did you film it? There's like a studio in, like, around 34th Street. Yeah.

During COVID, then you would film them in your house. But before that, it was a studio on 34th Street, and they would send me like a packet with, you know, all of like, this is what... These are the products. This is that, like, the points about them that you should be making and they also have stuff loaded in the prompter. And I would be like, I'm not going to read this and I'm not going to say that. And I guess they loved it, but I would be like...

You know, buy this 20, they got 20 CD changer, and I'd be like, no one is going to buy this. So I'm on the thing saying that. Like, don't buy this. Don't buy this. Don't buy this. I don't know why you would buy this. This technology won't exist in five minutes. And they loved it. I was there all the time. This is a fascinating chapter of your story. I really like the people who worked there. Yeah. They were nice people. The end. Why did it end?

I got a different job and I left. You said, baby, I outgrew you. But I was very fun. Because they did not care what I said, which didn't make sense to me. Right. But they just let me say whatever. It was very fun. And all the other people were like professional hosts.

Like they were on the money. They knew the products. They could tell you the voltage of the thing. I think at some point someone over there said they wanted somebody funny. Yeah. So then I went and I gave a presentation on some product. Sick. And then they hired me.

And then there I was. Fascinating. I was professionally bad at it. Like extremely bad at selling the product. I'm going to find the old food. Yeah. You got to find this is available? Was it live somewhere?

I think all it's all, it doesn't like go to YouTube or something, you know what I mean? Cruz Can Spatulas. I might have a big fan who just saved everything you did. I might have a super fan who clipped it all. That's what I've found. Anytime I need something from my archive, I have a big fan who has it saved somewhere. He's got it. I also think that if this lady does end up winning this lawsuit, right?

I don't think that's good for the internet. I mean, the internet has always kind of existed in this weird space where you sort of are taking and recreating or taking and spinning forward or taking and elaborating or parodying. It's all kind of in this, and it's always been a weird place with copyright law, if I'm remembering correctly, where it's like kind of the Wild West. Yes. The law has had to evolve to keep up with how it works. Yes, like even just like copying tweets.

Right. I don't think the world is better if only one lady can advertise being basic. Good news is that Alyssa Sheel, who is the defendant, who's name perhaps you were searching for. She has decided to pivot to a new aesthetic. Well, that's usually an indication of guilt, I feel. She's hosting a podcast called Alyssa Sheel finds out. Oh, no. Michael?

Yes. It's your turn on the main stage. Oh, Michael, it's your turn. On the main stage. I don't have, like, an article behind this. This is just like a video that I saw. Right. But anyway, I saw on the internet Ben Affleck articulating what the future of AI will hold for,

like filmmakers, etc. And it sparked a lot of thoughts among me and my fellow Artis. Roll the clip. Can I do that? No, I don't have the power. I thought I had it. You might. No, here it comes.

Look at that. How do you see it? I mean, is it a benefit or is it a real threat? Is it possible that a Netflix could say, you know, we're going to do our own, excuse me, James Bond thing out there with a bunch of actors that are completely recreated for this market or that market? A, that's not possible now. B, will it be possible in the future? Highly unlikely.

C, movies will be one of the, last things, if everything gets replaced, to be replaced by AI. AI can write you excellent, imitative verse that sounds a little bit thin. It cannot write you Shakespeare. The function of having two actors, or three or four actors in a room, and the taste to discern and construct that is something that currently entirely alludes AI's capability, and I think will for a meaningful period of time. What AI is going to do is going to disintermediate the more laborious, less creative, and more costly aspects of filmmaking, that will allow costs to be brought down, that will be lower the barrier to entry, that will allow more voices

to be heard, that will make it easier for the people who want to make goodwill on things to go out and make it. Look, AI is a craftsman at best. Craftsman can learn to, you know, make stickly furniture by sitting down next to somebody and seeing what their technique is and imitating. That's how large video models, large language models basically work. A library of vectors of meaning and transformers that interpret in context, right? But they're

just cross-pollinating things that exist. Nothing new is created. Not yet. Not yet. Yeah, not yet. And really, in order to do that, look, craftsmen is knowing how to work. Art is knowing when to stop. And I think knowing when to stop is going to be

a very difficult thing for AI to learn because it's taste. And also, lack of consistency, lack of controls, lack of quality. AI, for this world of generative video, is going to do key things more. I wouldn't like to be in the visual effects business. They're in trouble because what costs a lot of money is now going to cost a lot less. And it's going to hammer that space and it already is. Eventually, my hope for AI is that it's an additional revenue stream that can replace DVD,

which took 15 to 20 percent out of the economy of filmmaking, which is, and there should be negotiated rights and individual rights to say if you want to, what do people want to make five minute, 30 second TikTok videos where they look like the Avengers? Well, great. You can, you know, just like you used to be able to buy your Iron Man costume

at the store, you're going to buy your Iron Man pack and you and your buddies are going to look like Iron Man and Hawkeye like, you know, on Twitch. That's what's going to really happen. Most of the comments, like once you see the video once on Twitter or whatever, then it starts feeding you quote tweets of the same thing. uniformly pretty much the comments are

Ben Affleck is brilliant and this is like he's really articulated what's going to happen I feel so much better about AI but I don't feel when I watch this I'm like dude what are you I love Ben Affleck

let me just I'll at the base of this I love Ben Affleck I think he's handsome I think he's talented I think he's smart I think he's so wrong about this yeah a lot of the responses when I first saw this Ben Affleck shockingly smart

a profit of the way media is going to go. And you are actually saying, fuck all that shit. First of all, Benefellick knows more about the movie industry and films than I will ever know. But the thing he says AI can't have is taste.

And I think that also most people don't have taste. Yes. Most people don't know the difference between a good joke and a great joke. Yes. Most people don't I'm in comedy. So I know, I know,

those things. I can't tell the difference between a house that's been painted well and a house that's been painted exceptionally well. Because I don't know about that. When people watch TV shows, you can lower the bar quite far and they'll still go this show is awesome. This is my favorite show. And AI, I believe, can get to that level. I agree with you. What you're saying is that

in a world where a standard of success is just popularity, that what he is saying will not happen, has already happened and will happen more, because the guardrail on popularity is not quality. Yes, exactly. And I'm not even, not necessarily, popularity, but only important inso much as that correlates with where the money goes. Exactly. You know what I mean?

Like, in order to make a living in this industry, I fear that AI will make that incredibly hard to do in the near future because people who pay money to have things, made are very incentivized to make that happen. If I could press a button or with a prompt, write a movie, that's going to save me $200 million. I'll spend $199 million trying to make that. That's what worries me. The thing that's happening now, though, is that whenever I see AI, and it seems like it's discernible and obvious that this was AI generated, it feels like an indictment of AI. Yes, totally, totally true.

So right now it feels like to be AI is to indicate that you are getting like subprime, like poorly made work. It feels like my hope is that AI becomes stigmatized to the point where it comes associated with bad things. And what you are indicating, which I find very hard to disagree with, is that our ability to discern bad. from good is actually less relevant to whether something will succeed as a commodity. I worry that that's the case. I think that idea that like all AI does is imitate what,

you know, it can't create anything brand new. What we've been talking about with Burfany and the other one is that really everything is imitated. Almost everything you do for your entire life is an imitation of something you already saw. And a computer will be able to imitate more, and we will integrate and imitate more things. Yeah. I don't hold myself so special that a computer couldn't eventually do what... I don't think a computer would come up with burphony.

But I think other than that, I'm replicable. I also think that, like, the shortening of the attention span is discounted in the way that Ben speaks about... Mr. Affleck speaks about it. Thank you. In that, like, he is thinking about it from an actor's point of view

and when he watches a movie or Shakespeare and two actors creating this, I think like a lot of media being consumed now is almost like a second screen consumption. And I don't think that people are paying as much discerning attention to what they're consuming. And that's obviously not the ideal. And an ideal situation, you're putting your phone down, you're watching a movie.

I think younger generations were seeing less and less willing or capable of doing that. And so I think like AI slop can slip in under the radar a lot more easily. I also will say when people say Ben Affleck sounds smart, we've had Ben Affleck sound smart a lot of times. Remember when he was on Bill Maher? And everybody was like, whoa. You're not listening to what we are saying. You guys are saying if you want to be liberals, believe in liberal principles, like freedom of speech. Like, you know, we are endowed by our forefathers with an elizabeth.

No man are created evil. No, Ben, we have to be able to criticize bad ideas. Of course we do. No liberal doesn't want you to do. But Islam in this moment is the mother load of bad ideas. Jesus. So we have ideas like glass to me. It's not a true.

It is an ugly thing. Or how about the more than a billion people who aren't fanatical, who don't punch women, who just want to go to the store? Wait a second. Wait a second. Right a second. All right a second. Stereotyping.

Wait a second. And you're painting the whole religion with that. No, no. Let's get to do it. When he's doing well, is a great mind. a great talent and I wish that he would get his... I wish he would figure out what's going on with him.

Ben Affleck. And he would, you know, better himself. I don't know. I don't know what about that. I don't know what you're talking about. An eagle back tattoo in the sheets. Oh my God, I always forget about the tattoo. And a philosopher in the streets. Yes, exactly.

Do you guys remember when he made the movie The Town? You know, if you've seen the movie The Town? Yes. Have I talked about this on this podcast before? I'm having DejaVu. I don't think so. Okay, well, the Town's so fucking good. Yeah.

When I saw The Town, this is my first thought. My first thought, after the town, I turned to my wife and I said, Let's rob Fenway Park. I said, Ben Affleck's going to be president of the United States. He's very smart. That's how I found. Very handsome.

I really do love him. I just, I think he's wrong. I think he's maybe insulated from these fears because of his stature in the industry. Right. As a guy who worked inside of a pop-up window on Amazon.com, what you're saying is that you're I value his perspective. I found his perspective interesting. I just think he's so, he seemed very sure of the fact that, that AI was coming for everyone around him's job,

but couldn't do what he does. And I think that's always a tough perspective to sell anybody. Because to me, I'm like, if it's going to be able to do everybody, like he said it's coming for the CGI people. Yes. We've conceded that the CGI people are definitely screwed. Right.

And I just think that attitude has never historically panned out. We're like, yeah, it's coming for everybody else. It will not come for me. It can't do what I do. I think he's right in the sense of like the art of acting at its highest form. But I also think to what you were saying is that like the average person cannot tell the difference between incredible acting and fine acting or like decent acting or like barely. You can tell when it's bad acting most of the time. I don't think most people are like, wow.

Wow. So I was thinking out this other day, actually, as somebody who tries to make things that are good, first and foremost, as my main standard of success. Really? Yeah. And you're wondering, do I think this podcast right now is good? It's a real, it's a real concern in mine. But what I'm saying is that this is where I'm like, where are the guardrails? Yeah. If it's an open field in which it's just sheer popularity and the money follows the Amazon storefront, you know, revenues, what I'm hoping for is like, truly I thought that.

this. I'm so glad the Academy Awards exist. I'm so glad that there are things, institutions that signal in a very obvious way, reward this, it's good. There's a critical appraisal behind this, which leads me into this incredibly unpopular position of awards shows being the thing that'll save us. The elites who reward movies that I very seldom think are the best are the only hope we have for signaling in a market way. this is worthy of your eyeballs. Because everything else is just left for, again, an open, boundless focus group

in which people are like clicking on stuff. Yeah, but I hope that you're right about that, but I think the enemy to that is, you know, some studio making a film with AI and then paying Alana, whatever the first woman's name is, to make a video, saying how good that movie is. Do you know what I mean? Right.

So once you've got, once Kim Kardashian and Gwyneth Paltrow and some third person say this movie's good because they've been paid X dollars to say it, Joe Blow is not going to care what, you know, the Hollywood elite that haven't been paid have to say against it. Do you understand what I'm saying? Well, the question is like, can A.I plausibly write an episode of like law and order? Can I write an episode of Chicago Fire? Yes. I feel like for sure. Easily, yes.

I would be surprised if right now it can't. truly. I'd be surprised if right now it isn't. Which isn't to say it's going to write good episodes of it, but I don't think most people who watch those shows because those are procedural. So it's like it's pretty much the same kind. The beats are pretty much the same.

So, you know, we change the name, we changed the job. But you're interviewing the guy, the guy that saw the suspect the night before, the guy that's the victim, then you're moving to that part of it, the investigation, then you move to the interrogation part, then you're moving to the court part, and then it's over. And again, is it? Is it going to write episodes as good as the professional writers who are writing those episodes right now are writing them? No.

But will the net gain of profit to the company making those be enhanced by scrapping all those people and making a slightly worse show? Is Ben Affleck the boy who cried Dick Wolf? My goodness. Holy moly. My goodness. I hated that. Can I be honest? I hated that.

I mean, every day I sort of come to this conclusion where I'm like, Is this your topic? I think so. Again, I know this is a symptom of my depression. But most days I come to the conclusion that my depression is correct, that the way that I feel is the natural way that one should feel living in the current world that we live in, maybe given what I'm trying to do with my life. maybe that's what is influencing it.

But the more I look at like, oh, so the website that I used to go to to hear people's opinions that I value is now mostly bots and other content machines trying to get eyeballs on the most offensive or polarizing topics. Misinformation and people being paid to do things, but not. not disclosing that they're being paid to do things. All of that has kind of like muddied the waters in a way that's very difficult for me to just go like, oh, everything's fine. This is fine and good. This is fine and good. And we're going in a, in a direction I feel is a good one. Have you considered buying the mirror in Burfany's Amazon storefront?

It's in my cart. She said it changed her life. It's on your storefront. And I'm hoping, and you can buy that from me. I'll take a picture. in it and post that and you can buy it. As long as you don't show your face. Not trying to make an ad for depression. I just don't feel like, how does everybody not also have it? So the reason I know you're not alone is because there is a topic in our portfolio of topics that we could have selected on today's show that does fit entirely with this idea.

Which is it? Because that's the one I picked. I picked that one. It's that the Oxford English Dictionary has selected its word of the year. It's word of the year. This is a thing that all dictionaries do because dictionaries are brands too. and the Oxford English Dictionary's word of the year is brain rot. And of course, in the...

Two words famously. Yeah. Phrase of the year, I guess. Are you challenging? How dare you? Is it hyphenated? It is not hyphenated. So, two words.

It is brain rot, though. And if you're wondering, the other words of the year that, of course, have been selected. Gaslighting, I believe, was last year or two years before. There's always a thematic summary of sorts. Oh, wow. See that? Do I did? You guys see that?

I'm sad. Not good enough at hosting. No, you were busy. I was trying to scan a QR code to access the full version of the Washington Post Story, which is owned by the company that Michael Cruz King used to host a show inside of a pop-up window for. That's right. And I think I go. You go. No.

Do you guys know the aliens were supposed to come today? Did anyone see that? I'm so glad I didn't keep going. I know. Yeah. Dan said December 3rd. They said the aliens were coming. Who is they?

No clue. And it's coming from. Dan, too, which is like, I love that. The guy who thought that vase and vase were two separate sorts of pottery. Guy who sent me an Instagram video, clearly AI, of a cabin with snow falling in cartoons, and was like, we should go here. And I was like, Dan, that's not real. It's not a real place.

That's very fake. Yep, yep, yep. But anyway, he said that they are saying the aliens are supposed to come today. So I said, I'll be on the roof with the sign that says, take me. Oh, yeah, yeah, got an ID4. Hold on. Yeah, we're doing something. No, no, stick to the other thing you were Googling.

This year, you're in a Google. You've Googled, you've Googled yourself into a pretzel. The Oxford English Dictionary chose Brain Rocks, a term that describes the overconsumption of material or content to the point that it deteriorates one's mental state. Katie Nolan is the picture. It turns out next to the word brain rot in the OED. Thanks. First used in 1854. Walden.

Nail. it. You knew that. I knew that. Just from life. Oh, I was like, wait, really? How dare you prep for something? I was so impressed.

How dare you prepare for this show? It's my article, and I'm still impressed that you knew it. Yeah, so there are these like, I love that every dictionary, a dictionary organization, what's called in the Washington Post. I love that they all have these councils, like a Hall of Fame, like, voting committee that decides what's the word of the year. And Casper Grathwall. Hell yeah.

Is that one of the influencers? That's one of the women. Casper Grathwaal, also in his homeowner era, president of the Oxford languages, said that BrainRot speaks to one of the perceived dangers of virtual life and how we are using our free time like a rightful next chapter in the cultural conversation about humanity and technology.

Contrary to Casper Grathwall, Collins' dictionary, named, as its word of the year, brat. That feels right. That Oxford and Casper Grath. Wrathwall would say brain rot and Collins, which is a dictionary, it sounds kind of lo-fi. I would be like, our words boobs, y'all.

At the end of every episode of Pallotory finds out, a show about finding stuff out. We're already at the end. We do the thing that Katie hates, which is we say what we found out. So, Michael, let's start with you to give Katie a little bit of time. Oh, yeah, because I've got something at the ready. I would say I found out that the fellow who runs the Oxford English dictionary is named, and I believe I'm getting this right,

ding-dong, primple pants. Primple pants. Something like that? And I was surprised by that. Yeah. Yep, yep, yep, yep. It's misinformation. You're actively participating

in the misinformation that's making me feel like I'm dying. Actively participate in it. How dare you slander a dictionary? How dare you? Can you say his real name again? His name is Casper. Oh, sorry.

Different name. Grathwa. We've had some all-time names on the show. names here today. Casper Grathwall. Casper Grathwall. That's, well, that's what I learned today. Casper Grathwall.

Yep. I'm not going to forget it now. I would have forgotten it before, but now I'm not going to forget it. Yeah, he's up there with Burfany and the names will never forget. Katie Nolan. What did I learn? The, well, Butrin's not doing it. That maybe I need more MGs, you know?

That's, I think, what I learned today. If Katie's doctor is in the comments. Yeah. Sound off. Sound off. Sound off in the comments. Safely. If you're a doctor.

What I found out is that on this show, we can actually validate Michael Cruz Cairn's finest career credit. Okay, let's see. It's squeezing. Yes. It's taking my blood pressure. It's got a bunch of numbers on there that I personally don't know the meaning of. 98, that's a number.

You guys have heard of that one. 111. I'm supposed to be selling this. So far this checks out. These are all real numbers. Good. And now here's everything you could possibly want to know about my blood pressure. Let's see, hypertension, stage one, and stage two.

So if you don't see me when we come back, it's because I'm at the hospital or on the internet Googling what those things mean. I'm hopeful that putting this on my wrist is why it gave me that reading. But honestly, I might have a real problem live on camera for you, America and the world, to watch. Is it not supposed to go on the wrist? I have no idea. No clue.

You don't know how to use the Amron Evolve without a second D Bluetooth blood pressure monitor. Can you put that in your storefront so I can find it later? I also placed a bet, and it sounds like Michael, yeah, take the under, I guess. This has been Pablo Torre finds out, a Metal Arc Media production. And I'll talk to you next time.