Pablo Torre Finds Out - Share & Strap-On & Tell with Sue Bird and Megan Rapinoe

Episode Date: October 16, 2025

The greatest power couple in sports returns for a blue-cardigan'd victory lap full of wisdom, statues, Suegronis, Stud Budz... and real talk on what the WNBA's nuclear option could mean for the future of work.• Subscribe to "Bird's Eye View with Sue Bird"• Subscribe to "A Touch More with Sue Bird & Megan Rapinoe" Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out. I am Pablo Torre, and today we're going to find out what this sound is. The only way people hear us is if we scream about it. Right after this ad. Have you been, Pablo? I'm good. Just been in the minds, in the podcast minds, just shoveling content. I've been consuming it. I've been living for the bomber pods. It's, it's endless. I've been living for them.

They're so good. The person who was sitting in the chair that you're sitting in right now, Megan, yesterday was Mark Cuban, who came in. He came in. He's back. I've been living for that drama too. What is he technically now? He's a minority owner of the Mavericks. Okay, minority owner.

And so he can speak on this freely? I asked him, I was like, what do you think Adam thinks? What do you think Steve thinks? He's like, I don't think the league loves what I'm doing. But he is, he's the guy talking. Yeah. He's the only guy talking. I feel like the league should be like, thank you, Pablo, for unerthing this investigation for us.

I didn't bring you guys in here to talk about me, though. Well, that's what I came in here for. I know. I'm like, do you want to do your own little. I was like, if I don't have papers to flip over, I'm going to be pissed. I regret not having the manila folder in front of you. Read that quote. Sue was the first person to walk into the studio with the cardigan.

The cardigan guys. Oh my gosh. When we were talking about yesterday, I was like, yes. And I was like, oh, my God, I have to get the cardigan out. And I was like, oh, my God, I have to. This is awesome. We addressed this before. We are.

We are. Now we're here. Like Power Rangers. You took your little bird off. Well, you have, I didn't have a pin that was also my last name. I mean, so? So? That's clearly why you kept it.

You have a beautiful, it's a gull, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I feel like we're Mr. Rogers. I know. It's funny. You, we, in retirement, you have become a podcaster in ways that are even beyond my prediction. Oh, beyond your prediction. You are dressing like me. A. It's getting weird.

You have, you started another show. emulate the best. I did. Birds I have you, again, the pin. It doesn't seem. accidental. We're always watching. We're always watching. In addition to a touch more, which you know, I love. We're straight up podcasters now. You just, you're just media people. Just just just, just I actually refuse to be called media. I don't like it. What do you want to be

called? I don't know. Like a player podcaster who's not a player anymore. You guys are talking to microphones though and you guys are living a year that has made me laugh because every time I'm like, I wonder if Sue and Meghner in town. I'm like, oh no. There's another street being named after one of them. Yeah. How do you describe, I want Megan to describe the year that Sue has had? Because it's, I sat down to be like, what did I miss? And I'm like, this is absurd.

Okay, I'm going to start with the worst part. Which has just been like multiple, with the exception of Seattle, where you got your statue, which looks amazing. And that was, you know, in our hometown. So we'll get to this. I love Seattle, got to be there, do some really fun things. No shade to any of these other cities, but we're spending, like, long weekends in these cities multiple times in the summer. She's mad. This is not what I...

What are we talking? What's the it? We're going to Knoxville. Again, no shade. It's like, it's... We made the best of it. It's cute. It's cute.

It is cute. A great bakery there. They had some good food. College town. Yeah, it's great college town. The weather was actually pretty good. Then we went to Unkisville, Connecticut. Absolutely.

Shout out to Mohican Sun. You now know that it's in on Guzbo. Man, I went to a bachelor party of Mohegan Sun. Wow. Shout out to the, shout out allegedly to the gold club within walking distance. Mm-hmm. And then we were in Springfield, Mass. Yeah.

So it's just... Not direct flights. Flites? We're driving. We're driving. So it was not the... But no, not direct flights to Knoxville either. It was definitely not from Seattle.

The long weekends I was hoping for during the summer. But with that said... It's just like incredible. It's always like so special. Like it was really, you know, we got to see your family a lot and just having other people come in and people came to the statue and friends. And you've had an iconic career that deserves to be celebrated. And I personally enjoy being party planner. I feel like I love it so much. Unlike doing the part in Seattle, we rented out Rob Boy, which is one of Sue's favorite cocktail bars. cute little space. It's kind of like loungy, vibey, like just for... Yeah, we had a DJ in there. She had a special cocktail menu. What were some of the names? What were some of the names of the cocktail? The Aunt Sue. I think that was like a martini. We had the Sue Groney. We had the

puppeteer. Not to be confused, a puppet eater. Yeah. Oh, my God. On your friend. I'm sorry. She had like a special menu made. It was adorable with all of these. What is puppeteer? What is a puppeteer? The puppeteer was maybe an old-fashioned. It was like, you know, you're like the... Oh, like a maestro kind of vibe.

A point guard reference. Excuse me, can I have the puppet eater? Yeah. Or there was a point goat. Yeah, point goat, yeah. So it was fun. I have a lot of fun with it. I'm like, if we're doing it, like we're not going to Applebee's for dinner.

Like, we're... I'm going to go hard at it. You have... In my mind, it's just like you're producing like a series of wedding receptions. Exactly. Over and over again. And there is, of course, like, a standard process for how this goes. Sue has to be regal and respectful and funny and sincere.

Well, first of all, you said wedding reception. A lot of these, like, retirement-type moments do feel like it's like a wedding and a funeral in one. You got to say how to everybody. You got to say hi to everybody. But they're saying all these nice things about you. Right. The way I, you know, that usually happens at a funeral. And that's kind of the wonderful slash hard part.

is to just constantly hear all of these really nice things being said about you. One event after another, after another. Yeah, it's hard. It's hard. I don't like bask in it. But yeah, the best part about the statue reveal day was it was a gorgeous day in Seattle. It was outdoors, obviously, and I got to wear sunglasses. My shades literally were like shading me from some of the eyeballs. Everybody with us now. 10. 9.

Eight, seven, six, five, four, three, two, one. Not because you were tearing up, just because you were like, thank God, I don't need to emote with my eyes so deliberately with the knowledge that I'm being watched. It's a lot of attention. Yes. It's a lot of attention. But it's also, like I said, it's also like, who am I to complain? It's amazing.

Yeah, I mean, Sue Bird Court. Yeah. That's now. The people who live on that have to door dash their food to Sue Bird Court. That's pretty great. I know. Did people tag you on that? That's cute.

There's been mugging. Yeah. The street itself is like this long. It's really sweet. But yeah, me and Lenny Wilkins's way. Which is a corner. Right. I was on a climate pleasure, you know, which is, again, this is Seattle Sports Royalty.

This statue, though, just to be very clear about this, this is the first WMBA player to get a statue ever. This is a huge deal from a just like history of sports statues perspective, which you know, I study meticulously on this show. Yes, we're very aware. Do you know that, Megan, did you see what, wait, we haven't even gotten to Butter Sue? Did you see this? No.

You don't know about Butter Sue? No. This is Butter's... This is for you. Yeah, we're going to put it down here. Okay. The weekend of the statue, reveal, we did a touch more live. Yeah.

So we did a live show. I think it was the night before the statue, right? Yeah, yeah. So it was a night before the statue. So Megan's present to me, live on stage, was a butter sue. Oh, yes. This was the idea. Our good friends Natalie and Larissa hooked this up for me.

I said, I need an AI mock-up of Butter Sue so I can work off of it. That obviously didn't have... What's with the bun? Listen, you try to do curls in the butter when it's melting when I only have a short amount time while you're gone this morning. That, wait, you did this? I did it. Was a butter soup, a bust. It was like a butter sumo. Yeah, it was. And Megan did it. Megan made it. You didn't hire the couple in the Midwest or in Pennsylvania, excuse me, that we hired here, Poplar, Pobbottori finds out. No.

She didn't. And honestly, it was so bad. I mean. I looked like a sumo wrestler. I don't even know what was that. My nose was like this way. It was, it was. The sumo wrestler was actually the hair. She tried to get the pony. It looked more like a sumo bun. I didn't have a walk-in freezer to do my craft. Oh, yeah. That was a big part of it. I was like under such a time crunch. And then it was like to get any sort of detailing on the face. I was out of the house for like two hours. And that was the only time she had. But also like the butter melts. It's kind of like what truly prehistoric tribes depicted. It's almost impressionistic. Oh, my God. Anyway, it is. A fan wanted it after. So somebody has that.

Yeah. Somebody has that. Who knows what they did to Butter So, but maybe they're still just scraping off it. I followed you with the card again. I had to follow you with the butter me. It's just an incredible, an incredible, I mean, I can only take it as a compliment. Your fingerprints are all over. A touch more. Absolutely. Thank God the real statue you looked a lot better. Yeah. So I got to say, like part of the whole premise of like Butter Pablo and all of that

is that the history of sports statues has been horrific. There have been some bad ones. Terrible. Whether it's Cristiano Rinalda, whether it's Dwayne Wade, recently you go down the list. You know, Randy Chastain had a,

if I may say so, just like not a great, not a great statue. Didn't really look like her. The ultimate compliment to Brandy Jastain is that her statue did not look like her,

her boss. This one, that's like a top... It's uncanny. I think it might be number one. I think it is. It's legit. Yeah.

Listen, I just told you how much I don't like the attention of that, But that statue, I'm like, that's number one. It doesn't even look like you. It's like it is you. Like your hands. When I saw it.

Your nose from underneath, especially because you've broken it so many times. And like, just like your body. Yeah. Oh, totally. It's like off the side. When I walked in, it was like the clay version is all I got to see. But it was, it was in, it was the size. But it was just the clay version.

So you see you giving, I mean, it's you making a layup. Yeah. So I walk in, I go underneath it. I was blown away by the accuracy. I couldn't believe it. I was ready to just clown on you. Yeah. And I was like, I was just, I respect to the artist, to the sculptor.

You did a lot, you like gave a lot of yourself to it, though, a lot of feedback. You were like, you went to the sculpture. So the face is, this is what I feel like I learned. You were like in the process, though. I will say that. I think everybody is. I don't think that was unique to me. Well, if those other athletes were, they were not in it enough.

So this is what, this is my takeaway from it. Okay, you only see it as it's clay version. I saw like a 12-foot version of it, and then you go back, I went to the studio twice, you go back, you see it in full form. But it's still clay. I just think bronze is not a very forgiving material on the face. So any time you have a facial expression. For sure. Anytime you have a facial expression or you see a lot of someone's teeth, I think you're in trouble. I think you're asking for trouble if it's like a lot of, you know, like creases, wrinkles.

Like, so Dwayne Wade example. He's like very like, he's got that like, this is my house look. And so it's just bronze is not going to be forgiving. And so my face, you know, when I'm shooting laughs, apparently I don't emote. I've got nothing going on there. So it made for, you know, it looks smooth.

That was smart, though. I didn't do it on purpose, But now this is my advice. Look at the guns, though. Well, they got that right, didn't they? Just, just truly jet. That is how my shoulders look. That is how my shoulders look.

Those were those deltoids. No longer, but. The ponytail. Yeah, the pontytails. That's the best part. They got the Harachi 2K4s. Like, that's my favorite shoe I wore in Seattle. Diled.

Wow. They, I mean, I've, no notes. Just again. No. No. Impressive. By the way, my favorite thing, well, I've, I've, to just revisit all of this. It's just like Megan with the camera. Yeah. I'm trying to learn,

guys. Paparazzi. I'm trying to learn. It's honestly, the camera does 95% of the work. It's a great camera. But I am loving it. It's fun. It's a real camera. It gets there something to do. And I'm like, I don't know. That's what I'm saying. I'm just looking at all these events, especially these. I'm just like, obviously I'm your plus one and I'm there. So I'm like, I'm going to make myself and all the photographers, they like see and respect. It's a real camera. This is not digital. This is a film camera. She has to get the exposure right. Obviously, you have to focus it. Yeah, you know, you're getting better trying. This is like a real deal camera. All the photographers, they're always like, oh, is that a LICA? Like, oh. Yeah, I'm pretty good over there. It's like, it's like,

instant respect. I like Megan just wearing like the other photographers, like vest. Oh, I'm going to get in there. We need to get you a neon joint. Yeah, I'm going to get in there. I need to properly shoot a game. But there's a thing in sports where a lot of like Hall of Fame retired athletes, you've seen Marshawn Lynch do it. Randy Johnson King Griffey Jr. Penn Griffey Jr. Seattle thing. Why do you think

pro athletes as a pro athlete, why do you think photography is this thing that like, I don't know, it seems like you people are into. I think sports people too. I think sports people.

Athletes. Sportssters. You guys really are becoming podcasts. Yeah, I know. What do you call it? You sports people. Are like inherently creative in some kind of way.

And when I stopped playing, I found that there was a big absence in like, creativity and being able to just like do stuff and have fun and whatever so but but what's funny is like hall of fame springfield in the big hall of immortals uh and beggan's like right there with the camera yeah seat right next to zoo just like real close up yeah you looked calm you looked did it feel what's again i want your point of view megan i'm just like did that feel a moment apart from the previous things because it was the thing. It's the

Hall of Fame. You did feel calm. I think your statue and the Naismith Hall of Fame. No, those two. I know, but I had done the women's basketball. Yeah, you'd already done women's basketball. You'd already done all the retirement stuff. Like, you're kind of seasoned in it. I feel like you were like, this is amazing and like you're so proud and this is incredible. There's no way to like feel really truly like the magnitude of what that means. It's like you can't really like take all that in. That's going to. to be like a lifetime sort of thing that you just have. But you were like really relaxed.

I think the hardest part was like writing all these speeches in such a short amount of time. And by the way, unsurprising to hear and learn in context now that like you've had a whole, by that point, you've just been doing stuff along these lines. Yeah. So we're just like ready for this moment. It was like 10,000 hours. Absolutely. I was at my 10,000 hour moment.

That's what you got at the Naysmith Hall of Fame for sure. This moment is truly overwhelming. There are hundreds of people in here, I could thank, and those are probably just my surgeons. It's been so wonderful, though, seeing so many familiar faces. In terms of just like how to write, I remember talking to Ezra, our friend Ezra, being like, can we write, Suez?

Can we just like, can we? Can we contribute? I think my jersey's getting retired at Yukon, so if I need a speech, it's on you too. I'm calling you guys. Honestly, just bring them up. Yeah. Like we were on behalf of super.

Some in the folder, put down on the podium. That's rough. Flip that paper over. Oh, man. But yeah, no, I think there is something to having to do a bunch of speeches in a short period of time on the same topic. Exactly. And trying to figure out. So in this really wonderful way, well, man, if we take it back, this one still's tough.

If we take it back to my retirement speech. Okay. This is what happened in my retirement speech. I don't know if you've ever looked this up. It was over an hour. I literally talked for over an hour. Yeah. That's like a congressional filibuster.

Yes, she was filibustering. I really felt, little did I know I was going to give like three more speeches in the next two years. I felt like it was my last chance to talk to the city of Seattle. And I got it all out there. Seattle wasn't always home, but that's exactly what it became. And that's in large part to all of you. The minute I walked off, the first thing I said was like, was that too long? I said no baby

Everyone was like No no no it was fine It was like Robin does like three hour pods Yeah it's totally fine I held that whole arena hostage But I really felt I was like for me It wasn't just a career It was a life that I lived there

And I was I needed to thank everyone And I think the best thing You know other than being completely embarrassed about that The best thing that happened was I really thanked everybody So now when you look or you fast forward Or I fast forward to these other speeches I didn't feel that pressure

I got to say what I wanted to say, and especially since Snaismith was last. So I did Women's Basketball Hall of Fame. I did the statue. And now I could really just talk about more of a theme. And the theme of my speech was belonging and how sports gave me, like basketball specifically, gave me a belonging. My mom, Nancy, didn't care whether I won or lost. She just gave me the freedom and space to find my belonging. My dad, Herschel loves the game and always challenged me to be my best,

which eventually backfired when I started. I started beating him one-on-one. Had you heard her rehearse it a bunch by that point? I mean, probably 9,000 times. She's an outward processor. Oh, yeah. But she also, like, external processor. You, like, stopped listening.

Yeah, I would be like... Like, you were there in body, but not... I don't think her actual ears were on. No, I was. I was. Because I'd be like, tighten that up, or tighten this up. Can you say this one more time? Also, it got to the point where you were like, oh, you don't even have to listen.

I'm just going to say it loud. And I'm like, I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. Because there were a couple of things timing-wise I wanted to nail. Yeah. There was like some comedic timing I wanted to nail. Which I do like that. I like workshopping a joke. Yeah. You had a joke about LeBron and Deweigh and Chris Bosch planning the Miami Heat at the 2000 Olympics in Beijing. It's a joke. It was a joke, but it's also true. I remember that Olympics. Well, it was a great Olympics. Both teams hanging out, winning gold.

I mean, it was kind of weird how LeBron, Chris, and Dwayne kept yapping about three-year deals with a player option. And where do you want to take your talents? I'm like, where do you want to take your talents? I don't know, I tuned it out. I'm sure Mickey could probably tell you guys about that later. But Beijing was fun. The true story is like they have a players lounge. We all hang out.

Only the players can go in there. So it's the men's and women's teams. We're talking card games, hanging out, the whole nine. This one particular night, I was talking to D-Waid about who knows what. And he kind of said something like, yeah, Carmelo, he like signed the extension. He's locked in for like however many years. He's signed the extension. He's like, we all opted out.

So because we opted out, we're all going to be for ages at the same time. And I was like, oh, interesting. Honestly, he was just talking. He didn't actually make reference to them joining, you know, to taking their talent, so to speak. But the we that he's referring to. Yeah. It was him, Chris and LeBron, for sure. So he was just like telling me about MBA free agency.

And it wasn't until what, two years later, a year or two later, when they all go. And I was like, that's what he was referring to. I didn't know in the moment that they were plotting. But then you rewind, you look back on that conversation. I was like, oh, my God, I saw like the genesis of the super team, the big three. You've revealed yourself to truly not be a journalist, Sue. You just heard that and you're like, oh. And two years later.

Oh, yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. Like, yeah, we can all be free each at the same time. I was like, cool. Whatever. That seems fun for you. And then Mello, I talked to Mello about it.

He was like, I didn't think we were going to lock out. I didn't think there was going to be. I don't know what the lockout, like how that played into it, but that was his thinking on it. Oh, he wanted the, he wanted to opt in the guarantees. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Something like that. Not one, not two.

By the way, I toyed with that joke. So you want to hear another true story about my Hall Fame speech. The original joke as written on the teleprompter. even when I got up there was, yeah, and then I overheard them being like, not one, not two, not three. That was going to be the joke. But Mickey Erison, he did his speech before me. Owner of the Heat.

Owner of the Heat. And he made that joke. But then in 2010, with Dwayne, LeBron, and Chris Bosch, we knew we could win. Not one, not two. I guess it was just two. So in real time, I look at Megan, I'm like, I think I have to change the joke. I can't make the same joke. am I going to do? So the next like 30 minutes in my head was like toying with what to do and then I

went to take my talents. Which is what I wanted virtual. That is what you wanted originally. I want to observe one thing before seizing on a segue that you've offered me there, perhaps inadvertently, which is I was like, what is Megan's timeline on Hall of Fame stuff going to be? And I was just like Googling. And the first article I found was an article from Reuters. It was June 21st, 2024. Fact check. Megan Rapino, not disqualified from U.S. Soccer Hall of Fame. For what? What? Someone, there had been, there had been.

For kneeling? There had been some social media post that Reuters needed to fact check. That claims. And the caption was, Megan Rapino has been disqualified from the Soccer Hall of Fame, quote, she's a bad role model. End quote. And I'm happy to announce that this has been labeled,

Hold out where is it? False. False. They picked a real good picture, yeah. Great photo. So congratulations on not being disqualified and remaining eligible. What are the rules? Five years or something?

After retirement? Five years or three years? Ours, it used to be five and now it's three. I think it's three. You're on the clock? 27. 27 is the first year. Where is it?

Eligible. Frisco, Texas. Another banger of a city we're headed to. The other segment. way that I was given up to seize upon when you mentioned lockout is just what a time to be a power couple as I've long established you guys in which both of you have had experience like truly unparalleled collective experience trying to deal with the issue of player's salaries and women's sports indeed the state of the union indeed it's become a thing that's broken contain

yes the biggest news in the w is the searing comments from Nefiza Collier in her exit interview earlier this morning. I had unrivaled this past February. I sat across from Kathy and asked how she planned to address the officiating issues in our league. Her response was, while only the losers complain about the refs? I also asked how she plan to fix the fact that players like Caitlin, Angel, and Paige, who are clearly driving massive revenue for the league are making so little for their first four years. Her response was, Caitlin should be grateful she makes $60 million off the court,

because without the platform that the WMBA gives her, she wouldn't make anything. And in that same conversation, she told me players should be on their knees thanking their lucky stars for the media rights deal that I got them. I'm a human too. I have a family. I have two kids who are devastated by these comments. And so all I'll say is just, you know, it's obviously been a tough week. And I just think there's a lot of inaccuracy out there. this is of course been the thing that has been very near and dear to you guys. So I want to just start from the perspective of like, now people are like asking who don't know anything. And I'm closer to, I want to represent that side of the dynamic here.

So Sue, what is, where are we? How can you begin to describe this with all of the caveats and disclosures in mind? Okay. Disclaimer incoming. Yeah. I know. Sue is a minority owner of the Seattle Storm. Suez Management.

Yeah, Suez Management. God, how do I expect? I will say the one interesting byproduct of everything we've seen, really in the last two years in the WMBA, but then if you zoom in on the last, what, two weeks, everybody wants to talk about it. Everybody's got questions. People want to understand.

The wonderful thing is we have a great media deal. There is a ton of revenue. I think players deserve to get paid. I think overall, like the, I guess, company line really should be. Like, players deserve to get paid. Everybody agrees with that. You know, we want the business to be set up to grow. And both those things, I think, can happen. And if the, I'm not in the rooms. If we can get to that, I think we're going to have a great agreement. But the relationship has soured a little bit. And that's what Nefisa and Kathy and the whole thing. So the thing that went super viral was Nefisa Collier, just, I mean, again, one of the executives at the union, who also happens to be a co-founder of unrivaled, the off-season league that has become in the framing of this, both an incredible source of leverage ostensibly, but also a competitor to the WMBA.

And your mileage varies on which one it is, depending on how tense this negotiation ends up being. But that spotlight was shined, I think, for the first time. in a very obvious way on Kathy Engelbert, the commissioner. And quietly, as someone who has been interested in and around various women's basketball, conversations, gatherings, games, and stuff, I'd always heard Kathy isn't perhaps the most inspiring commissioner. The longest sort of like a view of her would be maybe she's not going to be the forever commissioner of this league.

I don't think you're allowed. Can you talk? Okay. Can you? Yeah. What is your view of Kathy? Only because we're not married. Yeah. Is that accurate? Is that real? That's like kind of accurate.

Yeah. I don't know how like if it's like a rule or if it's just a, but go ahead. And pretty soon we'll never be able to. I was going to say. We'll just forever be like able to talk about this stuff. Thanks to the Trump administration. I'd like to thank this administration for allowing a transparency. Shout out to the homies.

Your translation of what's really happening here from your point of view. I think that there's lots of rolls and hats that the commissioner wears and has to do. Kathy has obviously presided over an incredible growth period. Some of that out of everybody's control. Some of that just like, that just happened. Great. Some of it, I think she's, you know, had her hand in and obviously has a lot of business experience and I think that's both well for the growth of the league and they did the raise and all of the

things. For me, I just see there's like a relationship breakdown. And listen, I feel like this is really normal. When business is booming, I feel like the CBA negotiations are contentious. Like, the players want more and the owners want to give less. It's like generally how it goes. And this is a unique time when we're outgrown the CBA probably by like two years. But that's that's what it is. is. Like, the player signed it, the owner's signed it. Like, this is where we're at. So it's just tough when the business that the players are participating in off the field, they're seeing a increase or they're seeing that business grow in their own bank account, but not seeing it grow over here because it can't yet because we're negotiating the CBA right now. But I think with

Kathy, if, you know, I have to like point to a failure, it's clearly that the trust and the relationship with the players has really broken down. And they're, you know, saying things that happen in private meetings. It seems like they feel like they're not being heard. And so this is their only lever to pull to, like, get their side of the story out there. And I do think that's on Kathy. Like, ultimately, yeah, everybody needs to conduct themselves in the best way possible. But, like, you're the figurehead.

And so I think she could have done a better job at, maybe having more open ears or hearing them more or giving in some areas where she could, knowing that she's going to have to say no in other areas. But I think what's happened is she's just become like the like, oh, we can just dump everything here of things that like aren't her fault, like things that she's not irresponsible for. It's just like, oh, now we have you to dump it on. And she's not really able from a PR perspective to combat that or to bring her side of the story in a way that is effective, ultimately. Like, it doesn't really matter if she's likable or not or blah, blah, blah, blah.

Like, ultimately, you have to be effective, and especially in the court of public opinion. And the players have been very effective. And I don't think Kathy has been effective in that way, which is, like, piss the players off, frankly. So just to explain how this all works, that was very well done. That was very, and for the record. I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but you got to the point.

Sue almost buried her entire skull in her hands. I know, she's always like, what is she going to say? But the dynamic here is unique, because the WMBA has always negotiated inside of what the NBA does. And so the NBA triples its rights deal. Fantastic for the rising tide, lifting all boats, presumably. But the WMBA, and this is the way that I summarize for people who don't know, has gone from a thing like people used to say you should be into that because it's interesting or good or important to just like a real business that you can be into for just greedy,

financial reasons. Just be greedy. Just be greedy about it. Good business. It's just it's capitalism. Yeah. Capitalism. Yeah. Ben wanting that. The greatest compliment you can give the rise of women sports is that you could be in it just because you're greedy. Yeah. Because you want to make money. Yeah. But the way it works is, so Adam Silver is the top of all of this in terms of the commissioner of the NBA. Of course, Kathy, in that dynamic is the head of the WMBA. But the WMBA is inside of the Russian nesting doll that is the league broadly. And so Kathy, when it comes to like the various things people blame her for it, you didn't handle the Caitlin Clark experience well enough, didn't maximize it. She didn't feel included enough. Certainly communications with fee in terms of unrivaled, in terms of now this recent press conference, into just who do we, to your point, making it, who do we blame as things are not happening? CBA boring timeline-related reasons where you can't really just flip a switch and be like, everyone's making money. be the way that you want to know. I want to be realistic about that.

But the question I have for Megan... I'll answer the best I can't. You might be able to answer. We'll see. Is Kathy Younglebert somebody who can keep that job? I mean, maybe. I think she can keep it through the negotiations. I think it's going to take some repair. I think it's both like personal and not personal.

Like, at the end of the day, NECA said this the other day. Okay, the president of the WMBPA. WMBPA, I always put up. The union. Like, it's business, ultimately. But, like, you want to have calm labor negotiations. You want to have the ability to, yes, like, it's going to hurt both sides.

Like, that's a good negotiation when you walk out and you're like, oh, I didn't get everything I wanted, but I got some things. But I think that is Kathy's relationship to repair, and I think she has some work to do that. So she can, but I don't see a commissioner presiding over a league who, you know, seemingly is this like unliked. It feels, I will say this bluntly as well, as much as I can. It feels like what Nefisa said was said with the intention. of we don't want to deal with her anymore. Like this is not a try to come back to the table. It's like you are like this is we don't trust you.

The only thing I'm going to throw in the ring is just, again, I do think to understand where we are now in this moment, you have to understand the history and how it got to this point. I think it's such a big part of it. The WMBA players, myself included when I was playing, where really, I mean, a lot of times at wits end on how to get people to see what is going on here. Like, how do you pull back the curtains for people? How do you get them to pay attention, to discrepancies, to ways in which we've been held back? It's been very frustrating. And we learned, and then we're

incentivized to do it publicly, to take it to the court of public opinion. And that would show up in, you know, obviously fee sitting down with a statement for form of. minutes is a first to start her like exit interview for the season like playoffs she links lose and guess what here is a prepared yeah prepared statement so like the length of it and you know the point she was making that's unique to this to this moment and to her but you know whether it's in the social activism space yeah you guys flipped a senate seat yeah and had we do that we wore some t-shirts a political statement tonight from members of the alana dream against their owner dream player Elizabeth Williams tweeted this photograph right here, wearing a vote Warnock shirt.

Kelly Leffler, who was an owner, got effectively ousted from the U.S. Senate. Yeah. Paper of Raphael Warnock, who remains there because of you, mother f***. It's like legitimately a crazy story. Basically. You kind of, like, flipped the election. Yeah, kind of made an enormous difference in American politics. Yeah.

And, again, through the course of the last 10 years, I would say, we really learned the only way people hear us is if we scream about it and we go and we take it public. One of the stories, I just told this one recently, we get to the bubble, right? So we're in this bubble season. We've negotiated. And we arrive. And some of the housing was like townhomes. And there was a laundry room that was, I don't know, like one on each floor kind of a thing. And one of the players went to the laundry room the first day and it was disgusting. It was just absolutely disgusting. Now, we're meant to live in this place for like three months. And we brought it to the attention of the WMBA and like the powers that be and nothing got done. And then it took a player. It was Alicia Clark going on first take,

I think it was, going on some ESPN show because she was friends with a producer, so it got her on to show pictures of this laundry room, to talk about it because somebody posted it. Obviously, this reminds us of Sedona Prince, the TikTok and the NCAA tournament. I got something to show y'all. So for the NCAA March Madness, the biggest tournament in college basketball for women, this is our weight room. Let me show y'all. Let me show y'all the men's weight room. As women, as female athletes, we have been incentivized to do this. It's the only way people pay attention. And so that is how and why we're able to and why we do it now. Look, the Sedona Prince thing, I used to remember it being so effective because abstractly you hear

like, wow, all these women's college players are complaining about how their weight room is not good enough. You're like, whatever. And then you like, see the photo and it's like, oh, yeah, that sucks. Like, that's crazily different from what the men get. All the different meals that people were getting in their COVID bubbles, where the NCAA tournament bubble, our bubble. Right. Like, it's just the only way you have to show people. And the power of that is increasing because the players are superstars now.

They're huge. They're way bigger than they were before. And they have that, like, attention-grabbing ability that sort of, like, outsizes what's happening and what they feel like is happening in the league. So it's like, you know, they're making whatever a couple hundred thousand dollars in league and 10 million dollars off the floor. Like that's just a huge imbalance.

And so they have this microphone, sort of speak, that they can leverage and use. And like, ultimately the league doesn't have that. They have to combat that. But like, people want to hear from players. They don't want to hear from. Kathy or the league. But when they do that, you have to have like a mechanism to capture that to be effective. Yeah. And the only other thing I want to add to this whole like being incentivized,

the thing that we always struggled. with was what is the line between pointing these things out and shying on yourself? So what's the line? Like, look how bad this is. Yeah, like the narrative. Yes, hopefully half the people are like, that's f***ed up. But then the other half are going to be like, yeah, your weight room should suck. You don't deserve more than that. And so to point those things out, you're taking that risk. And the difference now is, the business is booming. I don't think the risk is as great. I think about this in terms of the wage scale. Because the wage scale, because the wage scale, it's like, again, we use Caitlin Clark

because it's the most convenient example, but it's like Caitlin Clark's making $70,000 as a number one overall pick in year one in the WMBA. And part of it is, again, sticker shock of like, holy shit. That said, there's also, I think, the concern of

oh, that's what they've been tolerating. And so the question of like, how much more do you need to go above that? It's sort of like if that's where the bar is now, the other question is, how much much more can you ask for if sort of like the standard has been so low. Yeah, I think this is where that media deal is just the proofs in the pudding. I don't really view it that way.

I think this, that deal represents, I don't know, like, so don't quote me exactly. I think our previous media deal was like 22 million. Criminal. I'm not even joking. Are you looking it up? Can you see if you can find it before I keep on my soapbox? Here it is. Right. So in 2014, it was ESPN, it was WMBA, the TV rights deal, which was $25 million per year, according to Sports Business Journal, to Sue's Point. But here we are now, and we have a $2.2. billion with a B, billion with a B dollar media deal over 11 years. I'm bad at math. So that's how much a year? Do we know? Anyone?

I mean, I'm going to, I'm going to say it's about that, yes. Okay. So let's call it 200 years. We went from 20 to 30 million a year to 200 a year. It's wild. Assuming some form of a rev share gets kicked into the CBA, which obviously they're negotiating, I really don't know. I'm not in the rooms. I don't want to emphasize that.

But at the same time, like, you assume this media deal, obviously the players are going to get something of it. Already, boom, you're going to see salaries go up. I mean, who knows, hundreds of thousands of dollars, right out the gate. And it's not a risk. It's not a question mark. It's not if we get this. We have it. We have $200 plus million a year from the media deal. And we all know that's how

sports leaps thrive. It's this media deal. And we finally got it. Do you have a point of view on like how to negotiate in public about this stuff? Because I dare say you were aggressively. You were allegedly disqualified from your Hall of Fame perhaps because of this. I think about all of the time. And this is why I love, frankly, I love labor. law is because of sports. It's like sports provides this venue for Americans who don't care about labor and management and the dynamic they're in to actually engage with it because it affects things they care about. And with you and the USWNT and how to fight for fair wages, look, it's different from a pro league. Like, in any pro sport that I've covered. The NFL, the NBA, WMBA now, like, what's the number

one threat a player has. It's that you don't play the games. That's always in the back of my mind. It's like, when do you actually threaten the thing that results in the money, the media, the right steal, the actual gate, all that stuff? Explain what the weapons you had in front of you were when it came to the women's national soccer team. Well, this is why I love media, because we had a media was our biggest weapon and our faces in front of the media and winning all the time. And winning all the which I feel like the W has that. They are collectively winning. They have superstars.

They have ultra-superstars in the league. And the players have, as the owners have, and everybody has in the W. I really do feel this, like, sacrificed a lot. And so they are frustrated by that of the amount of investment that they've had to make with, like, no return. Like, you made 20 years of investment. and you got one good contract out of it. And you're not going to get two good contracts out of it.

And you're not going to... And a street. You know? And a street. And a statue. And you're not going to get the return. So it's like owners make investments. They get the return.

So I think at this moment really what's happening is like, it's like who's going to make the bigger investment? Because if the players make the investment, that really means like taking less to continue to grow the league so that ultimately the next CBA, will be even better, but they're never really going to see that. Like, you just get your contract, you play for it, and then some players are going to be out of the league.

You're never going to get it back. Owners are going to see their valuations go up, and I think that's what players are looking at. Like, business is booming. Your valuations are going up. I know you need to reinvest in the league, but eventually, you know, Golden State, even in the first year, they can sell for $500 million or $700 million.

The Valkyries. Yeah. So I feel like in terms of the public strategy, always leave the doors open. Like, I don't think players should be like, oh, Kathy has to go or we're not playing. I don't think, because it's just like, you never know where things are going to go. Always leave the door open. Negotiating good faith.

Go really hard at it. Work stoppages are, like, catastrophic. And especially this. Like, everybody's winning here. The W's doing great. Oh, it's the closest thing to the nuclear option, right? Because everybody gets mad at that point. Yeah.

And it's like, it's unfavorable in the public. People don't want that. Maybe it'd be more favorable for a women's team to do that, frankly. I think all the times when the men's teams lock out, it's like, oh, you're making $20 million anyways, like, you're just whatever. Meanwhile, the owners agree to too. But I do think that the players need to keep that in the forefront. It is a tool for sure. But, like, it's a blunt object and it's a bad one if you have to use it. So, like, continue to show up, ask with the things that you want. Hear the other side to you're going to have to give. Like, that's a successful negotiation when it hurts a little bit on both sides. What I always find interesting is how soccer and basketball, how the U.S. women's national team and the WMBA, this is like so different. Because the WMBA, well, now it's like 156 players, which will go up to, you know, give or take 180 or so when we add two more teams next year. But it was 144 for a really long time. 12 teams, 12 spots. And so that's like you're dealing with a lot of different experiences. Whereas for you guys, it's one team. And it's part of a national governing body. Right. So it's like a non- nonprofit, whereas we're like obviously a for-profit business. So it's like totally different in terms of what you're negotiating, what you can ask for, the rules around it. So there is a difference. I actually don't know your answer to this question. For me and for the WMBA on the last CBA,

we really tried to set it up where come this CBA, we could just be talking about money. So we got 100% maternity leave. We got, this is going to sound crazy, but it was a big thing. we got everybody had their own room on the road. So for, who knows, let's call it six, seven years prior, in the CBA before the one they're in currently now. It was like you only got your own room after six years of service. You had a room with people in your first six years. So we got everybody their own room. That was a win.

Things like economy to economy plus, everybody now had to be in Economy Plus or whatever the airline calls it. You divas. Yeah, I know. But these slowly but surely And obviously now you fast forward They were able to do this mid-CBA They've got charter flights So that's checked

So there's a lot of things A lot of boxes that we got checked In the last CBA And there's so many things There's so many things You're lucky if you get three of them And we got a lot of them in the last CBA It almost sounds though

Like it was accomplished those things With the goal of We want to clear the decks For the actual conversation For the fight. For the money. Yeah. Which is always going to be the money.

Yeah. But we knew that meant it was growing. How would you describe the various contract timing decisions that have been made in terms of players who happen to be conveniently, seemingly blind on this? We signed that last CBA in like January of 2020. We knew it was like six-year deal with an opt-out, whatever it was. Honestly, everybody, I think every player understood in that moment. we were going to be opting out no matter what. Like I didn't see a scenario where we weren't.

So that happened. But even prior to that, two or three years ago, you started hearing players, started seeing the contracts they were signing. Everybody was understanding that our media deal was going to be big. And then obviously now you enter Caitlin Clark. You enter Angel Reese. You enter this new wave of players. And it's like, oh, it's definitely going to be big.

No player signed a deal that went past, except for like two. I think there's two. Out of the 144. Out of the 144, I think there's like two or three vets that have a deal that extends one more year past this year. Wow. And then it's all the rookies who got drafted in the last couple years are still on their rookie deal. And those salaries will go up to whatever the minimum of their salaries. So if Caitlin's at the $70, whatever $1,000 mark, let's say the new minimum in the next CBA is $250, she'll jump to that.

But every single other player, every single other player's deal is running out this year. They will all be free agents. plus plus two expansion drafts. The GMs are about to earn every single cent. It's really going to separate some people. It's going to take the first domino to fall. So some player will get signed to something, and it'll set the market value for everybody.

I don't know of a scenario that's like that. Me neither. In pro sports history. Because the entire thing I just said before is, what happens if the players don't play? Well, here you have a true, like, crossroads where the players are not even under contract. Yeah.

Yeah. It's not they'd have to sit out. It's like they're just not going to, they might not sign. As they say in Jurassic Park, clever girl. My favorite moment from your parade of honors, which was stud buds, you guys, Adam Silver. It's the best ever. In a photograph. So for those not familiar with the commissioner of the NBA, how would you?

describe his Instagram account? I mean, it's just, yeah, I actually love it. It's like a name drop, but like it's good. It's a captionless, just like series of here like. I was here. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Here I am. Yeah, I love it. Flat Stanley. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. It's a flat Stanley in real life. I think it's great. It is, it is. These are the places I go and the things I've seen and the people I'm around. Much like Megan, Adam Silver loves his collection of photographs. I love it. And the number one photograph that took over my algorithm, my feed, was you two, the stud buds, who again, please explain the stud buds because I can't really do justice to the term or the characters. Yeah, yeah, Courtney Williams and Natisha Heidelman, longtime teammates. The links.

Plan the links now have played together for many, many years. Best friends decided to start a live stream on Twitch. Natisha basically backs Courtney up. Like, Natisha comes off the bench. Courtney starts. So it's like they're in the same position. Their best buds, it's like the most beautiful, like, little friendship ever. It's so cute.

Yeah. To see them on this stream is great content. Is to know them. This is who they are. This is not a performance. Yeah, vibes are always, I mean, Courtney is like a one-liner queen. Anytime she's getting pulled at halftime to do an interview, do not change your channel. Like, something's coming out of her mouth.

And so they came up with the name Stud Buds. Stud, obviously referring to them both being gay, both being more like mask presenting. So that's the stud. And then you know what a bud is. They're buds. They're buds. They're buds. And so, yeah, the picture is you two and them two and the commissioner of the NBA.

And Megan, can you explain the context and the conversation that was happening? Earlier on a previous stream, Courtney purported that she had never ever been strapped before. And Matisha was like, never? Like, really? She's like, no, no, no, no, no, never. And I just feel like we need to be a little more specific. For our audience, we really need to spell it all out. Which is basically just, like have someone penetrating you with the strap on.

Okay. Because she's a stud. I don't know that I would have said, use the word penetration here. What would you say? I just would have said, go ahead. You nailed it. Yeah. I mean.

That's technically what it is. It is being nailed. This is being nailed. It's all of it. Yeah, exactly. It's being nailed. And Courtney was like, nah, never. Hell no.

Oh, my God. I don't play like that now. Strapy-lapie, princess. But like, you're never? Ever. And then teachers like, never? Like, I don't really believe you, but also it was whatever. So that was my burning question for All-Stars.

I was like, I've got to get in there. We have to, this is no way that that is true. But also, I just need to just have that conversation. And that's the photo that Adam snapped. Getting snapped. The photo that appears on Adams' grid, on his Instagram grid, is a photo of Megan, basically going to Courtney Williams on their live stream, by the way. The live stream is happening. So this is recorded.

And saying to Courtney like, never? You actually never did that? We have to address the best moment on Sudbuzz. What did that? Never? Never? Oh, never strapped? Wait, what?

Are you, like, for real? Just for trizes? And, you know, Adam, I'm assuming Adam's photographer, actually, captured the moment. So Adam wasn't even there. Fun fact. Oh, that's right. He texted me the next day after we talked about, he was like, what am I missing here? A lot, Adam.

Everything. You're missing everything about it. He's like, I see that everyone's laughing about it. What happened? I was like, how much time do you have? He knows good vibes. He knows good vibe. He knows good vibe.

We were having time. We were having a good time. Yeah. So Adam Silver does or doesn't know what strapping is? He does now. He definitely does now. I'm sure he knows now. Yeah. If he didn't before.

Yeah. I would sure he knows now. I'd like to retract what I said before when I said that I wasn't sure you guys were journalists. Megan is just making direct eye contact with the camera. Are you kidding? Jim Alfred in the office. Can I be honest? You're not going to love this.

But this is what it's like doing a podcast with her. You just talk right to the camera. You never talk to me. I got to get to my paper. funny. I'll be like, we're having the conversation. Why are you talking to the camera? Because we're having the conversation with... It's so funny. That's right. She always goes direct to cam. I'm one of these people. I'm like looking at me. I'm such a big fan of the show. Megan, Sue, thank you for being in this business. Thank you for giving me the honor of giving Butter Pablo a front. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You're welcome. This has been Pablo Torre finds out a metal arc media production.

And I'll talk to you next time.