Pablo Torre Finds Out - Six Degrees of Jeffrey Epstein, with the Experts of TrueAnon

Episode Date: December 16, 2025

The internet is feasting on the files of a scandal (almost) everyone can agree upon. But who's following the money? Our friends from the inimitable TrueAnon podcast — Brace Belden and Liz Franczak ��� break down the latest tranches, the hidden characters, the sports billionaires, the Trump doodles... and how Prince Andrew got his sweat back.• Subscribe to TrueAnon• Read Drop Site's reporting on Epstein's Yahoo inbox• Previously on PTFO: The NBA Player, the Congressman and the Epstein Files Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out. I am Pablo Torre, and today we're going to find out what this sound is. There's a slight problem with the sweating, because I have a peculiar medical condition, which is that I don't sweat, or I didn't sweat at the time. And that was... Oh, actually, yes, I didn't sweat at the time. Right after this ad.

What are we talking about? Jeffrey Epstein. What are we talking about? Jeffrey has seen? Oh. That old... That old... That old bastard.

Brace Belden, Liz Franzak, thank you for being here. Thank you. Thank you for having us. I need people to appreciate your show, True and on,

for lots of reasons. First and foremost, though, I need you to describe each other if you could. Yeah, of course. Well, Brace is a six for a highly accomplished basketball player. I would say that...

I know what she's supposed to describe me. I'm a natural athlete. To be very clear and honest, here, your Wikipedia page is one of the more bizarre texts that exists on the internet. Listen, it's Wikipedia. It's not the full story, but it is a, it makes me look like a psychopath. That's right. Liz, I would describe as, I hate to seem like I'm almost, I'm trying to make her fit in here. Liz is a giant sports fan. That's true. Liz knows ball. Liz knows ball. And she's smart and like, she knows ball about other topics that aren't ball.

Whatever, that's called, I think, just being smart. But Liz is a very pleasant person, I would say. Well, Liz, I don't think, uh, fought in the Syrian Civil War. No, she was. No, Liz was briefly in ISIS. People don't know this. And people think, because like now it's like she's doing a whole other thing. But she was, yeah, she was the Liddy Brigade. And they kicked, they kicked her out over some theological differences. It was the ISIS, ISIS. It's like how the Tennessee volunteers have the Lady Vols. Exactly. Precisely. Sure. So I just got to jump in here to quickly fact check the truth behind True and On for you.

because Truonanon, which is otherwise known as my favorite podcast that was specifically born in 2019 to cover the whole Jeffrey Epstein case, is in fact co-hosted by a guy who did sneak across the border into Syria in 2016 and volunteer with a Kurdish militia to fight ISIS. Grace Belden, whose Twitter handle used to be at Piss Pig Granddad, chronicled all of this on that account, which no longer exists, and then he returned home to become a labor organizer. Liz, meanwhile, Liz Franzac, really does know as much ball as the people yelling about sports on television. Just for the record here. But the reason Brace and Liz are in studio with me today is because I recently did my own bit of Epstein coverage. This was two weeks ago when I interviewed 6'11 former NBA player and three-term Democratic congressman Tom McMillan about his life and career and recurring appearances in the recent wave of Epstein files. more on this specific character and story later. But last week, yet another tranche landed upon our shores.

There were new Epstein photos released today showing you and also Bill Clinton, Steve Bannon. What were your reaction to those new photos that were released? Well, I haven't seen it, but I mean, everybody knew this band. He was all over Palm Beach. He has photos with everybody. I mean, almost there are hundreds and hundreds of people that are photos with him. So that's no big deal. I know nothing about it.

All of which made me want to talk to Bracin Liz about how we got here and how to make sense of an undeniably bipartisan scandal that keeps connecting to sports. When did you guys realize that you're going to spend this much of your lives talking about Jeffrey Epstein? I'm still realizing it. Yeah. It still is like a wave that crashes over me. It's funny because, you know, we cover.

the Galane Maxwell trial here. We are also following breaking news. Galane Maxwell will serve 20 years in prison for sex trafficking. A federal judge announcing that sentence within the last hour. Now, Maxwell was convicted of helping to recruit young girls to be abused by her longtime associate Jeffrey Epstein back in December. At the end of the Galane trial, that sort of seemed to be it in terms of like any kind of new investigation.

Jean-Luc Brunel, who is one of Epstein's close associates, who was sort of in this inner circle with Galane and Epstein. He died in a similar manner to Epstein in a prison in Paris. Tonight, John Luke Brunel is dead, found in his Paris prison cell hanged with his bedsheets, according to the Paris prosecutor's office. And it was sort of like, okay, well, Epstein's dead. Jean-Luc Brunel's dead, and Galane is in prison and sort of incommunicado. And when she was convicted, it was sort of like, this is going to be.

be one of the last sort of gasps of this case. And then lo and behold, this year has just been a flood. Conservatives are asking why Attorney General Pam Bondi and the DOJ issued a memo saying there's no new evidence. President Trump is defending Bondi, calling her fantastic and urging supporters not to waste time on Epstein. Quote, we have nothing to hide, says Donald Trump. The president now saying he wants House Republicans to vote in favor of a bill to compel his own Justice Department to release the Jeffrey Epstein case files. They can do whatever they want. We'll give them everything. Sure I would.

Let the Senate look at it. Let anybody look at it. There's so many new tranches of information, emails, depositions. Several high-profile names are listed in newly released documents turned over by the estate of convicted sex offense. Jeffrey Epstein. Democrats on the House Oversight Committee say they will not stop until they identify everyone complicit, they say, in Epstein's heinous crimes. And a judge is unsealing secret grand jury transcripts from Jeffrey Epstein's sex trafficking case. It's the latest in a string of decisions making case files public after Congress passed a law requiring they be released. Now the Justice Department is facing a deadline in just over a week to release all the Epstein

files. It was always funny because I think between the two parties, no one ever really knew what to do about Epstein? Like this was an issue in the 2016 election. Yes. In 2015, leading into the 2016 election. And then kind of came back with a vengeance when he was arrested and right before he perished, obviously. And then again, this year, as, you know, all the Trump people were trying to absorb this into, you know, having this kind of be their thing or whatever and then kind of ending up with pie on their face because he was so close to Trump.

But everyone didn't know exactly what to do because each party had such close connection to them. It's one of those things where in 2016, if it had been any other people, like both Trump and Hillary Clinton were not only like friends with Jeffrey Epstein, but at various times, good friends with Jeffrey Epstein. Right.

Like all together, though, too. Yes. Like it would be just the Clintons, the Trumps, and Jeffrey Epstein. In photos. Exactly. And it's so crazy. Because, like, listen, if it was basically not anybody else, but most people in the country, if they were running against either politician, you could be like, weren't you friends with the pedophile guy for a long time? Sort of doing to Trump or to Clinton what's happening to Trump right now.

But they were unable, they were almost some of the only two people in the country who were unable to hate each other on Epstein. Classic Spider-Man meme. Exactly. And it's funny because Epstein sort of became this shibboleth in right-wing media, right? Like you have these, I don't know, maybe I'm also using the word shibol. wrong, but you know what? Can I do like a Jamie thing? Can you put the definition of Shibboleth

kind of on the screen right now? You're just looking up for me. You're just turning me into Joe Rogan's researcher? I'm here to play the role of Jamie. Wow. You want me to look up Shibbleth? I mean, just am I right about what the word Shibboleth means? It is a word custom practice that identifies

someone as belonging to a particular group or conversely marks them as an outsider. Okay, I'm wrong on the word shibboleth then. Fine. Totem. A Jeffrey Epstein sort of existed as a totem for a lot of right-wing media. And they sort of did like these like, oh, Jeffrey Epstein didn't kill himself t-shirts. The release of this thing that kind of cohered into the Epstein list really became kind

of, I feel like, to Trump's chagrin, a part of his campaign. And he was pressured by these kind of right-wing podcasters into agreeing to release an Epstein list, which he did twice, once in a TV interview and I think once in a podcast interview. Would you declassify the Epstein files? Yeah, yeah, I would I guess I would I think that less so because you know you don't know

You don't want to affect people's lives If it's phony stuff in there Because it's a lot of phony stuff With that whole world And J.D. Vance as well He has this sort of awkward Exchange with Theo Vaughn Where he's sort of forced to be like

Yeah Release the list Seriously, we need to release the Fstein list That is an important thing It has just been Disaster after disaster It is one of the things I think that Trump has mishandled worse than anything else probably in his entire career.

Oh, the tweets that J.D. Vance sent. I'm just going to quote from one of them, what possible interest what the U.S.S. government have in keeping Epstein's client secret? Oh, dot, dot, dot. One tweet. Another one. If you're a journalist and you're not asking questions about this case, you should be ashamed of yourself.

What purpose do you even serve? I'm sure there's a middle-class teenager somewhere who could use some harassing right now, but maybe try to do your job once in a while. They shouldn't let millennials be. in politics. Yeah, he's doing like office gym face. You can't be like, oh, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot.

That's his whole thing. I know, I know. But I should say, in response to that thing, right, when he says if you're a journalist and you're not asking questions about this case, you should be ashamed of yourself, that is a big, I mean, not the only reason why, but it's part of why my thought was

this is clearly an absurd story that the internet can have its whatever. It could feast on this, but like, I consider myself aspiring, serious journalist. Like, J.D. Vance is telling me to do this. Why would I do that? And I want to shout out, like, the real

journalists who have done work on this. Like Julie Brown, Miami Herald, being the foremost person I think of, of, like, doing real investigative work that has never, I would say, looked more prescient, more important in retrospect. And now I'm realizing, oh,

like, he was hoisted on a pittard to the extent that I have used that ptard as my... You're hoisting a metaphor here. yourself up on his pittard. That's right. Pause on that, but that's, it's, it's, this is, and I just want to say,

I'm looking at the camera, direct advice, never be involved in the hoisting of a pittard any which way, because you think you might be hoisted someone else's, it might be your own pittard that is hoisted. What is a pittard? We don't know. But something that gets wasted. It's a bit of a shibboleth. It's a bit of a shibboleth. Yeah, that's what they say. Going back to this whole

like, either party doesn't know what to do with this case, which it's like kind of a hot potato for everyone involved, is that, like now Democrats are completely obsessed with it in a way that they are now going like so far deep in it. It's kind of funny to watch in a way that they're just looking for anything, anything, anything that they can kind of like use as ammunition against Trump. It feels like for the Trump administration, it feels like a real pressure point. It really is in a way that few other things are.

I mean, Donald Trump is sort of known for being Teflon Don, right? Like kind of untouchable. But again, his mishandling of this from top to bottom. And to To be clear, like, there's not really allegations against Trump. In terms of, like, victims that have spoken out or have directly accused people of something, Virginia Jeffreye has said explicitly that Donald Trump was not involved with what happened to me. And so I was always like, you know, he's a piece of shit, but like he was probably doing his weird shit with like probably adult models that he was, you know, getting from Russia or whatever, allegedly. I'm not even alleging that. But I'm saying if he was to do something, he was probably doing something with those people. But the way that he has tried to squash this story

has maybe be like, what the fuck is going on? And then that slow, the strangest with the letter and the lawsuit, saying that the letter was fake, he filed like a multi-billion dollar lawsuit against the Wall Street Journal and Rupert Murdoch for allegedly coming up, faking a letter, which they were able to... The birthday.

The birthday... The whole thing of like, I don't illustrate anything. And then it's like people pointing out, you're a series of illustration. Mr. President that you otherwise made. And I will say kind of nice illustrations. He's pretty good.

It's not bad. You know, it's... George Bush has his cat paintings. Donald Trump loves doodling. He's his doodles. I always say they look like they belong at like Sardies or something. Like New York...

Classic Midtown New York Skyline. A martini... Yes, Midtown Martini-Done. It's all there. But before we can get back to where there is sports in this story and also the ways in which Jeffrey Epstein connects to the billionaires who run sports, I also don't want to take your knowledge of the deep lore of this story for granted.

Because in order to make sense of Jeffrey Epstein himself and how he became this nexus point for what can legitimately be described as the global elite, you also need to know the peculiar origin story of his former girlfriend and confidant and employee. Galane Maxwell and how the two of them met Galane Maxwell comes from this family Robert Maxwell, her father, the bouncing check who was this sort of science book magnet

in the post-war years he worked as a spy for British intelligence during the war after the war he sort of had this strange kind of combination of jobs where he was a very big publisher who was sort of a rival of Rupert Murdoch but he was also involved in this kind of like, let's say, backdoor intelligence and diplomatic work

where he was, you know, he's from Britain, but he was going over to Bulgaria quite a bit. He was quite close with the Israelis, and he was spending a lot of time in the Soviet Union. And so he was just kind of this guy, this international networker guy, who also had these many newspapers. And sort of famously, he was alleged to have been involved

in the kidnapping of Vanunu, the Israeli, the whistleblower, who revealed that Israel has a nuclear, weapons program. And I'm just trying to process everything you just said for the last few minutes. And that's not like conspiracy theories. No, that's what I mean. I'm like following along.

I'm jamieing along. And I'm like, yep, there's that. There's a really nuclear program story. Yeah, still never acknowledged by our government or theirs. He was a really sort of interesting character. It was killed or died. It's sort of a similar thing to what happened with Epstein, where there's a lot of mystery around his death.

But he fell off his yacht. And he was quite a large man. He was. And I don't know how good. gravity works. I'm not going to pretend like I'm like Mr. Isaac Newton here. But I'm like, if you're like that big of a dude, don't you kind of have, it's like harder to push

you over, right? Well, you, for him to tip, he would have to, I mean, I think that would be very, you know, it's a low center of gravity that's going to holding you down there. Yeah, but I don't know how gravity works. But it's important to mention, too, that like in the immediate aftermath, I mean, Galane didn't think that he

just fell off his vote. She thought that he was pushed. And the boat was called Lady Glenn. Which was previously owned by famous arms trafficker, Adnan Kishoggi. Yes. Adon Kishoggi, I know this from separate

rabbit hole. He's the guy who had also done business with Trump. Correct. Yeah, I think Trump was actually maybe going to buy that boat. In 1991, Donald Trump, who was envious of Adnan Kishogi, the mogul, the Saudi Arabia mogul, arranged by the yacht, as it's

called, then called the Nabila for $29 million in touted it on David Letterman's show as, quote, probably the greatest yacht ever built. It's really been kind of a great investment. And he renamed it, the princess, apparently after Ivanka.

So just a real, a real bunch of, a bunch of dads loving their kids. We just love our kids. As a bunch of fathers of daughters. It's such a small world, isn't it? Yes, yes.

And so, and so Gilein actually gave interviews and was like, my father was killed. And it's interesting because that brings, us actually she meets or at least the first picture ever of her with Jeffrey Epstein is at her father's memorial here in New York City and this is kind of when they began dating it seems like they did meet before then but sort of the first I think official linkage of them comes at

Galane's father's memorial I don't know if I don't know first reported appearance of them together and like the society pages it's funny because what what Robert Maxwell really wanted for his daughter is for her to be like, basically he wanted her to like join the Kennedys and to like, you know, the dream. The dream. The dream. In like, what was it the dream? They had kind of an odd relationship. 86. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Like, he also allegedly, I don't know if you want to put this in. He wiped his ass with with full-length bath towels. We want to put that in. Okay. Yeah. That's just, there's allegations of that. He was a big guy. He's a big fella, you know? And who knows what's going on with that? The British dad is very strange. That's really when Epstein

and Galane were like, they were the top of their power couple game and so they had a strange relationship. They get together after dad dies. Kind of no disrespect and I don't mean anything by this. Classic time to get with a woman. And their relationship is for the audio only audience is shaking her head

roofing her head because she's like damn he's fucking right. They have an interesting relationship where she seems to be like enthralled to him in many ways and he's just like I don't go if I'm cheating on you with a Rothschild and Eva Dubin. But also it's very unclear, like, what they're...

I mean, she has kind of alluded like, oh, yes, we were together. But then also that they... I mean, they never slept together. But she says because of a medical condition that he had. I mean, Jeffrey Epstein, there are allegations that he has either egg or, as we've recently learned,

maybe perhaps lemon-shaped penis, which seems to... It's basically the same shape, right? I'm like looking for I feel like the lemon is a little pointier Lemon to me is yeah you're right you're right You know it's like the taper is more Is yeah

I'm Googling sharper of a paper I'm googling eggs so Oh I can just picture them usually But I uh it's There uh it's it's um There did seem to be some sort of defamation I will say there is out there a picture of Jeffrey Epstein's penis And I'm not saying this in like a kind of trying to be crazy way

but like this has been a major part of the Jeffrey Epstein story for a while. Like it was a pretty like... Well, they asked him about it. Exactly. He was like... Is it true? You have an egg-shaped penis. Crazy in a deposition to be like... You gotta know that question is like 60th on the list. And like every time you're ever when you're done it, I'm gonna get the egg penis.

The night before you're looking in the mirror, just like practicing it in the bathroom. Yeah, like try not to stutter. And he was like... I mean, not to get too into it. Like his sexual... I feel like we're well past the point of you being able to say... Okay, not to get too into it. But like he does, I mean, his big thing was like these sort of massages.

And like sometimes it was a euphemism, especially all of like the kind of Paul Beach allegations with the teenage girls. It's like those, most of those were in the context of these massages, some of which began as regular massages, but he would pressure them into doing other things or offer them money to do other things. And sometimes, you know, there are allegations. I mean, there's full like penetrative rape allegations against him. And then there's like, oh, he just paid me money for a hand job.

They sort of run the gamut. But he also, there's this other kind of like exculpatory, not exculpatory, but I believe in like Galane's view, exculpatory stuff. And maybe Jeffries as well, as we saw from some of the emails, they're like, no, I actually love getting massages. So he was getting massages from adults too, but he was also getting these. I believe it was like six times a day. Yes. He was, that's how I'm like, where's his job? Well, I think the question I'm asking myself all the time is like, what should I know that I don't?

don't know already when I'm like catching up on the coursework. And then it's the like the related question of what becomes a meme that people do know about and why. Yeah. And for instance, like Les Wexner, I think is somebody we deserve to really be talking about. Yeah, I'm sure that he is sort of preferring his kind of slow fading away into the darkness. I think probably he never wants to be in the news again. He does. He certainly does. He certainly does.

He certainly does. He's got a face for it. But he was the owner of the limited, which was this sort of conglomerate, which owned a bunch of different brands, notably Victoria's Secret. And it's through him that Jeffrey Epstein seems like he got his first big break. Now, that's actually where we kind of come to our first problem, is we actually have basically no insight into what that big break looked like. Yeah. It's still, to this day, it's pretty unclear. And there are people working on this, both in Congress and in the Senate and also journalists working on this.

we actually don't really know how Jeffrey Epstein made his money. And how much of it he made. Yeah. And so within like, I mean, within like six or seven years of working for Leslie Wexner, he's making like tens and tens of millions of dollars. Has power of attorney, all this stuff. Yes, he was the primary investor and money manager and was so close that, yes, he had power of attorney, which is like the most intimate legal relationship you can have

with another person. And there's rumors of other types of intimate relationships between the two of them. I will say. And frankly, you know, I have heard so many rumors about Leslie Wexner's predilections. But we have heard several, including from people who have sort of maybe knows some of the principles involved, that Leslie Wexner and Jeffrey Epstein had a deeper relationship than is reported. So as a matter of just like the sports of this, because we're sports in this story. You may be asking a technically sports show.

I was seeing, of course, Leslie Wexner's name on the football complex at Ohio State University. It's the Les Wexner football complex at Ohio State. Relatedly, more recently, a bunch of Ohio State alumni were holding up photos of the face, aforementioned, of billionaire Les Wexner with Jeffrey Epstein because they were demanding testimony from Wexner in their own school sex abuse case involving this Dr. Richard Strauss, who was allegedly abusing all of these wrestlers. This is the Jim Jordan story. This is all of that.

As one former OSCE wrestler Tom Lizzie put it. quote, we believe Wexner's testimony will shed light because he was on the board of Ohio State while it was all happening. Yeah. And so speaking of just like where does Epstein the six degrees of him? Yeah. I mean, this is one. This is one degree right to the other giant, in this case, male sex abuse scandal at Ohio State University. It's funny because he really, I think he saw which way the wind was blowing very early along with the Jeffrey Epstein stuff.

I think probably because their names are so connected. And so with, there was a lot of, this is sort of ancient history now, but in 2019 after Jeffrey Epson got arrested, there was a lot of reporting that came out about him essentially like abusing his position as this kind of money guy or like conigliary for Leslie Wexner in order to essentially do like casting cow shit

with adult models who maybe he would entice with potential work for Victoria's Secret. Now, this is something that actually is a pretty important part of the Jeffrey Epstein world to begin with. Modeling. Modeling. Exactly. And this brings back Trump, by the way. Yes. I mean, well, there's the rumor, of course, that... I just want to say this. And again, I'm looking right in the camera. Hunter Biden is currently under threat of lawsuit from Melania Trump for a billion dollars for claiming that Jeffrey Epstein introduced Donald Trump and Melania Trump. I'm saying that it is within the realm of possibility, that something of this nature could have possibly occurred

due to the social scenes these people were moving in. The social network, right, of what and who is hanging out with each other and what did they know and when did they know it is separate from what did you do criminally. And I want to clarify, for instance, like Les Wexner, this is the reporting, you know, there were these Epstein documents released by a U.S. District Judge in New York in January 2024 that involves Virginia, Jufrey,

alleging that she was forced to have sex with Wexner numerous times. Okay, so that's Wexner, and he's reportedly repeatedly denied that allegation. One thing that I think that has always sort of, there's been a stench of it around Jeffrey Epstein is that like, clearly he was moving money in places and maybe washing money or laundering money for people. Globally. Globally. Yeah.

I mean, we're getting a little more insight into kind of his global practices now with the latest tranche release. But it's still such a black hole. I mean, so much finance stuff is a black hole on purpose. But I think it is notable that, like, yeah, he lived in, like, the U.S. Virgin Islands, dude. Like, that's like, I'm sure that they're very beautiful islands. I've never been there. But, like, I think that there's also maybe a little bit of a dual purpose for that.

And he, in fact, was getting, like, these special sort of tax programs, I believe, set up specifically for him in the U.S. Virgin Islands. Jeffrey Epstein's relationship to the government of U.S. Virgin Islands is so insane. Yes. Like, the J.P. Morgan case. The cases with J.P. Morgan, Chase, and Deutsche Bank have yielded some of the more like interesting disclosures over the years. I mean, you mentioned Julie K. Brown, there's a few journalists at the New York Times had been following this since his arrest and really trying to like follow the money, which is a whole different angle than some of the more like kind of more salacious stuff that people kind of get caught up in. And what kind of came out with the Virgin Islands case was fascinating. too because he had such a close relationship with the governor there. De Jong, I believe. Yes, Cecile De Jong, who's the governor's wife.

She would help him secure student visas for girls that he would bring over from Eastern Europe to be university students, except then they wouldn't be really university students. They would just kind of be, quote-unquote, working for Jeffrey Epstein. which you have to do that. I mean, there's like a whole procedure there to get a student visa that you have to go through the government. I mean, so, you know, none of that really caught on in a lot of mainstream coverage.

But it's small details like that that I've really stuck with me. This brings me, by the way, to just the character of Prince Andrew. Oh, yeah. Because... It's tough. He has gone viral, so to speak.

He has become nationally famous, internationally famous, obviously, so to speak. And yet, I had not seen the BBC News Night interview until I was just preparing to talk to you guys. He's so good, isn't he? It's incredible. It's shocking. It had been a while since I had seen it,

because, you know, we talked about it when it came out, obviously. But the, just the sheer amount of just, he's like, I don't need media training. I don't need help with this. I'm just going to go for it myself. and just it just crumbles completely. It is... I was...

Remarkable. When I was talking to Tom McMillan, I was imagining how rarely it happens when you get someone in the files in front of a journalist with just extended opportunity to question. Yes. And this interview with Prince Andrew

is like 50 minutes and it is all about this. And at one point, race, he's talking about how he stayed at Epstein's house after so much of the news came out, and he calls it this. It was a convenient place to stay.

I mean, I've gone through this in my mind so many times. At the end of the day, with the benefit of all the hindsight that one could have, it was definitely the wrong thing to do. But at the time, I felt it was the honorable and right thing to do. and I admit fully that my judgment was probably colored by my tendency to be too honorable, but that's just the way it is. He just needed to be by the park.

It was so convenient. He got a lot of flack for that, but I got to tell you, saying that you hung out with a pedophile because you're too honorable not to is, I think, probably the first person in history to use his excuse. Your Honor, I love work too much. Exactly. He should have said, Your Honor, that was during my pre-woke phase. Yeah.

Your Honor, it's different in the UK. It's different in the UK. We were just different back then. Who he is, though, just like, okay, Prince Charles's bro. Yes. Who had been subsequent to all of this, excommunicated, banished from Buckingham Palace and so forth. A little before he was kind of the black sheep. Always.

Always. Because he's a party boy. What is your favorite memory from that interview in terms of like what still sticks in your craw? I mean, I hate to say it because it seems like the most obvious answer. But saying that he was so scarred from the Falklands War that he was no longer able to sweat. And thus could not, this memory that Virginia Jeffre has of him being very sweaty. And to say this as a person who many pictures of Prince Andrew feature him on X. to see in Abiza sweating copiously.

Dare I say he's sweating in that interview? Yes. It is, I think that is, it is sort of, it speaks to the power of the royal family. And I don't mean power as in temporal power. I mean really spiritual power coming from God, that he was able to think that this excuse would work. She was very specific about that night.

She described dancing with you and you profusely sweating and that she went on to have bath, possibly... There's a slight problem with the sweating because I have a peculiar medical condition, which is that I don't sweat, or I didn't sweat at the time, and that was... Oh, actually, yes, I didn't sweat at the time

because I had suffered what I would describe as an overdose of adrenaline in the Falklands War when I was shot at. and I simply, it was almost impossible for me to sweat. And it's only because I have done a number of things in the recent past that I'm starting to be able to do that again. So I'm afraid to say that there's a medical condition that says that I didn't do it, so therefore... Okay, so just a few things.

One, if you're a journalist, and you're a journalist, you know what I say to this? I say, what are the things you did? What are the things you did to get your sweat back? that I'm curious about. Yeah. Two, I want, they made like all these movies. We were just talking about this.

I didn't know this. About this interview. Yeah, it's very straight. But that was, I view them as like how they made a Hot Cheetos movie. But also all the like Me Too movies. Yes. You know, the girls. The Megan Kelly movie.

The girls are taking them down kind of moment. Anyway. But what I want is a movie that is just the scene before the interview with his PR girl where they are coming up with the plan for how he's going to explain that she could be lying and they come up with, well, what if we say I medically can't sweat? Because I want to know the logic and how he kind of could come up with such an idea. Because to be honest, I do think it is very creative. He does an incredible sort of lie thing where he's like saying this and he's like, was that, yeah, like, you know what I mean? Like this having. Was that before I did all the work to get the sweat back?

Because it's like before I did on ayahuasca and before I did some healing, it's like, I'm sorry. And this is maybe British viewers or Argentinian viewers even might find this offensive. I cannot take PTSD from the Falklands War seriously in any respect, especially, I believe a naval guy. He wasn't even on that one big battle that they had. And so it's like, all right, first of all. This is why I mentioned that Braves was in the Syrian Civil War. So he has the authority. You know what, though?

The condescend to the Falcons War. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. For a prince, I'm sure it was pretty scary. I'm sure it was pretty scary. I'm sure it was pretty scary to be on a big ship with an Argentinian ship shooting the widow guns at you. But it is difficult to be like, okay, so that scared you so bad so you couldn't sweat? It's interesting. I've never heard of this before. Maybe you sweated everything out and you're depleted for many years until you drink enough electrolytes. We do need more journalism because we need to find out how he came up with this idea. Yes. And I think it really... And who gave it to him? And did they? look up the photos of him profusely sweating, which are also easily available. She knows. You know what I mean? There's a million photos of him with his mouth open with Naomi Campbell in the background going

like... Like clearly on MDMA. Yes. He's probably done more ecstasy than that... Who's Macaulay Colkin the movie Party Monster where they killed a kid? He's like that. He was like that but a royal. And it's... And it's... Not that long ago either. No. Well, it's so... It's funny

because his connection to Galane Maxwell comes, I believe, from Uni. as they call it out there, which is also where, according to Boris Johnson's sister, heavily implying this in a column, I believe she wrote for the spectator, Galane Maxwell also might have f***ed Boris Johnson,

which is, by the way... None of my business. None of my business either. I would pay not any amount of money, but I would pay probably $500 to see a high-definition picture of Boris Johnson completely naked from the front and back, two pictures. It's crazy because...

In my head, he's always wearing Union Jack underwear. I feel like that... photo brace described would give me a surge of adrenaline such that I, too, could not sweat anymore. Well, because I would sweat so much. Interesting. And also pants, of course. I mean, the money, when you follow the money. If you can.

Which is difficult for reasons that you guys have laid out. You do get to Apollo global management. Yeah. Insofar as one of the people who keeps showing up in this story, of course, is Leon Black, one of the heads of Apollo global management. And when you tell the story of Apollo, which is his big private equity firm, you then get to a name in the files, and that name is Josh Harris.

And so Josh Harris braces now quizzically looking at us. Oh, thank God, it's a sports thing. I was like, is this just a guy I didn't know about it? He was one of the... Could be both. One of the heads of Apollo Global Management, but he's also better known for our audience, I guess,

as the owner of the Philadelphia 76ers, the New Jersey Devils, and the Washington commanders. He's the guy who has been, apparently, talking to the White House, backchanneling with the White House, about naming the commander's new stadium after Donald Trump.

I didn't know that. Oh, yeah, that's happening. That's been the story that has been unfolding backstage. He was at the dinner with Muhammad bin Salman at the White House recently. And according to the schedule in the Epstein files from December 2014, that was released this fall by the House Oversight Committee, was listed as an invitee to a tentative breakfast with Jeffrey Epstein and Bill Gates. Yeah, that doesn't surprise me.

Now, did it happen? Did it not? It's simply listed on the docket for stuff that was set to happen. And he's also in, did you guys see, I mean, of course you did, but like Michael Wolf's like writing. Oh yeah. And so just to clarify here, what popped up in one of the recent releases of Epstein emails was the almost 9,000 word draft of a New York magazine profile about Jeffrey Epstein, which was privately sent to Jeffrey Epstein ahead of publication by its author. Michael Wolf, which is, you know, this whole separate ethical problem for journalists to discuss later. But in this draft, Michael Wolf describes his experience observing a parade of global elites

that were coming in and out of Epstein's New York mansion. The same mansion that Prince Andrew was, you know, too honorable to not stay at. This was a series of private meetings around 2014. Years, in other words, after Epstein had pled guilty in front. Florida in 2008 to prostitution-related charges involving a minor in years after he was ruled a registered sex offender in 2011 in New York. And Wolf writes about watching luminaries like former Israeli prime minister, Ihoo Barack, come in for breakfast, and then the former chief technology officer at Microsoft shows up. And then, quote, Josh Harris, the co-founder of Apollo

global management, $164 billion under management. And owner of the New Jersey, Devils and the Philadelphia 76ers. Wolf continues. Quote, perhaps it's just the ultimate feminist nightmare. Men and a few opportunistic women continue to come to Epstein's because, no matter their public bows to modern manners, they simply don't care that he offends every aspect of reconstructed gender and political sensibilities.

In private, it remains a man's world, a rich man's world. end quote. And so Josh Harris is one of these characters in this play allegedly. And so I also need to say here that last week Pablo Torre finds out reached out to a spokesman for Josh Harris, who faces no criminal accusations of any kind,

for comment about the scheduled tentative meeting and alleged visit with Epstein. And he did not respond before our deadline. But this now brings us back to the fellow billionaire co-fellioner, founder of Apollo Global Management, the guy we mentioned before, whose association with Epstein was significantly more intimate. But Leon Black, speaking of like the money, you follow the money insofar as we can, and you're

like, so Jeffrey Epstein got $158 million from Leon Black for tax advice? Tax advice? That's what they said. Tax advice. Tax and estate planning services. And I'm no billionaire. But 158 million fucking dollars for tax advice. Well, think how much you must have saved him. But don't tax is coming? That's the thing that's scary, right? That's the follow question I would want to ask. That's what I'm saying.

You're paying someone $160 million. You got to know, well, how much did this guy save me? How much did I make? I think one thing that always blows my mind is Jeffrey Epstein is said to have, I mean, you're making $150 million from one client. Jeffrey Epstein's staff doesn't really, seem like they'd exist. Like he has various social secretaries.

But like there's not very many people or really anybody who was like, yeah, I was Jeffrey Epstein's like, I like, you know, I sort of I interned at Jeffrey Epstein and like you know, I was like a first year to be a there. But like, no, it's not, it's just apparently Jeffrey Epstein when he's doing these things. And his lawyers.

And his lawyers. Yeah, Darren K. Indike. But who are still yeah, his, yeah, who are very sort of, I also don't think it has been examined enough. But like it's still, it seems like a rather a small operation for such large amounts of money. Well, that's how you keep all the money. Thank you, by the way, for just taking time to watch to listen to the interview we did with Tom

McMillan, who is the 6'11 NBA player in question. I'd say 6'9, but yeah. Well, 6.11 in shoes. In shoes, in socks, combined measurement. Who was in the video that NBC took at Mar-a-Lago, where it's Epstein walking in, and there is Donald Trump, and he's ducking out from behind in Epstein and Trump next to Glenn Maxwell. What an interview. I think that interview was really good because I think it sort of showed a bunch of things, both how Epstein operated with sort of this like this web of friends, how little anybody gave a fuck that he got arrested for solicitation of a process. But really, which is the official charge or whatever, but for actually, you know, sleeping with underage girls. And how bad people's memories are when these things are brought up a couple decades later. I mean, by the way, all of this putting into perspective the fact that here's a guy.

in the black book, in the flight logs. I don't think you even mentioned this in the episode, but he also got political donations from Jeffrey Epstein. I could tell that you were hinting at that. Yeah, so it was... You really cut you off there at the end. Please, can we move on? I mean, this was just...

I thought we were talking about sports and stuff. This was stuff 35 years ago. I don't have any relationships here moving on. So I'm going to leave... I'm sorry that... I mean, I wanted to talk about the good things. The brief catch-up is just... that $1,000 from Jeffrey Epstein to Tom McMillan when he ran for Congress,

a Democrat in Maryland in 1990 in November, and then $2,000 from Jeffrey Epstein to Tom McMillan. And this is labeled, by the way, February 18th, 1992. And the organization Epstein is listed as part of is Wexner Investment. But one of the people who he is associated with because she wrote an email to Jeffrey Epstein, well after he was established as a registered sex offender is this woman Gwendolyn Beck.

Yes. And Gwendolyn Beck is also someone named by Virginia Jufrey as someone who participated in the orgies with Jeffrey Epstein and is in the flight logs more than a dozen times and has these emails and she wrote this email to Epstein about Tom McMillan, subject line Tom McMillan, saying, I just met him, he had lost touch with you,

wanted to get back in touch with you, on and on and on. I say that to say that from the Melania perspective, There's also photography. There's a photo of Gwendolyn Beck and Melania Trump and Prince Andrew. Yes. It's just you see all of these people, again, connected directly. Well, it's interesting, too, to bring up Gwendolyn Beck, I believe the orgy that Virginia Jeffrey is referring to

with Prince Andrew and Jeffrey Epstein on the Island was also an orgy that took place with several young women that were brought over, possibly on student visas, by Jean-Luc Brunel from Eastern Europe. And so Jean-Luc Brunel, again, like, he was a, he got Me Too before you could even really get Me Too. The Me First of Me Too. Yes. He was bad news, but he was able to resurrect his career in America with the help of a lot of people at powerful modeling agencies, including, of course, Jeffrey Epstein, who is connected to that.

And Elaine Maxwell. And Gleine Maxwell. They were all such good friends. But speaking of such company of this network of people, if you heard our last episode, you may recall me discussing this. blog entitled Hollywood on the Potomac, which once posted a video of Tom McMillan's birthday party, which happened to be hosted by a Democratic lobbyist named Tom Quinn, who is also featured in the Epstein flight logs, as you reported. Elsewhere on Hollywood on the Potomac, on that blog, it turns out, there is another post published in July 2012 about an email. An email apparently sent by Olympian and Road Scholar Tom McMillan,

as a dispatch during the 2012 London Games. Quote, opening ceremonies on Friday night, Saturday night, a Rhodes Scholar party celebrating the 37 Road Scholar Olympians, and a black tie soiree with Fergie, Princess Beatrice, and Prince Andrew,

and a very dashing crowd, end quote. And as I thought about that scene, it brought me back to Gwendolyn back. Because there is another email, another thing I just needed to show Grace and Liz before I let them go. Because the nonprofit investigative outlet, DropSight News, has also been doing tremendous reporting

on Jeffrey Epstein. And we'll link to their ongoing series in this episode's description. You should check it out. Last week, DropSite very kindly shared a yet to be released wave of Epstein emails. This time from Epstein's Yahoo account with Pablo Toray finds out. And I found another email from Gwendolyn Beck, and this was sent to Leslie Groff, who apparently was Jeffrey Epstein's assistant. One of many.

One of many. And this is 2006. And Gwendolyn Beck wrote an email, and it is this kind of beautiful summation of the asymmetry between the emails that Jeffrey Epstein was receiving and the emails that were being sent in return. So there's a big difference in how much people would like write paragraphs and paragraphs. And in this pitch from Gwendolyn Beck, who, for the record, has not responded to any of our requests for comment

in any of our reporting, starting with Tom McMillan, through to now, she pitches him on a product. Quote, Hi, Jeffrey, miss you, exclamation point. Hope all as well. I'm heading to South America for the holidays. holidays to explore new regions, parentheses, and yes, I will be staying with an Argentinian polo player for a few days, and parentheses, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, have been working with a group of investors to fund small companies, parentheses, goats milk, ice cream, et cetera, dot, dot, dot, close parentheses,

and ran across a company with such huge potential that I wanted to see if you're interested before I give it to them, parentheses, because I really like you a lot better, close parentheses, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot. The product basically shrinks the walls of the vagina. Dash, dash, dash, dash, takes 20 years off, parentheses. forget Botox, close parentheses. It really works, open parentheses. However, I wish it was permanent. Close parentheses, period.

They are in the development stage, comma, still doing clinical trials and have a patent pending. Let me know if you have any interest in the deal. She goes on to give a name for the product. Some blogs, if you Google, period. Lots and lots of love, love, capital L, comma, Gwendolyn. The response from Jeffrey Epstein to his assistant meant to presumably be returned to Gwendolyn Beck is

Sounds goo Debut, I can't. So. What's the name of the product? I'll tell you off here. Did it ever come out? Yes. Jesus Christ.

Yeah, I think that just about sums it up. At Jeffrey Epstein's emails, the ones that he send barely are rarely over a sentence or two. And I think that maybe, I don't know if there's a single one that has a fully grammatically correct sentence using all the right punctuation, everything like that at all.

He's a modernist. If you want to measure someone's power, you measure it in the difference between the effort someone puts into emailing you and the lack of effort you put in to respond. I know. It's amazing. It is a kind of a power move. You're totally right. And almost every email of his sent from my iPad.

Brace, Liz, this has been goo. This has been goo. This has been goo. Thank you for coming by the studio. Thank you for having us. This has been Pablo Torre finds out, a Metal Arc Media production. And I'll talk to you next time.