Pablo Torre Finds Out - Tearin' Up My Charts: How MTV's 'Total Request Live' (and Pop-Culture Democracy) Got Rigged

Episode Date: March 12, 2024

Prepare yourself for the warm glow of late-'90s nostalgia: In the era of boy-band supremacy (and a little Korn), the 'TRL' countdown was America's high-school cafeteria — a daily election of cool for youth culture. Until one fateful day in music history, twenty five years ago this week, when a chain letter set off a movement to hack the vote. Correspondent Yourgo Artsitas examines whether MTV's shadow government was protecting the the sanctity of our culture... with a lie.Learn more: https://trolldoc.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out. I am Pablo Torre, and today we're going to find out what this sound is. Today's show, folks, brace yourselves. If there's a railing or a wall or a post of some kind for you to hold on to, I urge you to do so. Right after this ad. You're listening to Draft King's Network. So we haven't done this before. I feel like this is the first. Bring the studio to the middle of Times Square. You dragged me out of the studio to go in a Pilgrim. That's right. And what was the language you used to describe where we're headed?

A landmark of democracy. And the reason why I wanted you, Bradley Campbell, no department correspondent. Hello. The reason I wanted you to be doing this episode is because I wanted to do an episode about democracy and sports democracy in specific because it's an election year and the power of the vote in sports is a story. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And so I had this meeting, those sorts of things.

meetings that I have about ideas. You were there. Cortez was pitching something about Pat Riley. He was hitting his ooze tanker in the corner. Yeah. I'm just vaping. But the thing about it is, I immediately went to just like NBA All-Star voting. Yes. Because there are some amazing stories about just democratic movements to get guys into the All-Star game. And this is my favorite NBA All-Star voting story. 2016, another presidential election year. Okay. Zaza-Pichulia becomes the subject of an internet movement to make him an NBA All-Star. You may recall Bradley.

Tower at Tbilisi. From the Republic of Georgia. Yeah. Big man, then with the Dallas Mavericks, it's kind of insane that he would be an NBA All-Star. He's not that good. But what happens is all of these, like,

Vine Stars and the actual president of the Republic of Georgia, even Wyclef Jean gets in on it. What? He composes and performs a song about getting out the vote for Zaza Apikulia.

Oh, God. Wow. It's insane. Vote Zazaa Pechulia. Yeah. And the way All-Star Voting works in 2016 is the top three vote getters make the team.

Okay. And so number one, Kobe Bryant. Okay. Obviously. Kevin Durant, right behind him. Number three, Kauai Leonard. Number four. Zazaar fucking Pachulia.

He came so close that the next year. They changed the rule. So it wasn't fan voting for All-Star starters anymore. It was 50% fan voting, 25% media voting, 25% player vote. And so they changed it because of the Zaza-Picholia Democratic uprising. I did not know that. Because when we were talking in the pitchmeaning itself, we brought up John Scott.

There's a surprise leader in fan voting for the upcoming NHL All-Star game, and his name is, yeah, John Scott. Seriously. The Coyote's tough guy has no goals in only 38 minutes. of ice time this season. The hockey player. Yeah, NHL and Forsu, who actually did get into the All-Star game, actually proved that he could skate and did well. But like so many people told that story.

And I remember I was sitting there and we were thinking of Democratic votes and I was like, oh, oh, I got one. And involves somewhat serious level of democratic corruption, a story that my past is familiar with. I do want to establish that you are a guy who's done serious journalism about actual democracy. Yeah, we did like stories on Navalny, Brexit, Razaboko Haram, ISIS.

Yeah, just some casual light reads. It really makes me believe in humanity's capacity for love. This one, though, involved the actual corruption of a democracy. Yes. And there was a hack that happened. And it involved a group of computer scientists who successfully altered a national vote. And it started in the early days of the Internet.

And I remember pitching to you guys. What do you think about that? I was in, as soon as you said, computer scientists hacking an election. Oh, God, and all of a sudden it was like that podcast trope of... And the more I started to investigate it, Pablo, the more I realized that what I thought I knew was actually wrong. And the story itself was so much more wildly corrupt than anything that I could dream,

that it actually became a nightmare. That is disturbingly accurate. Your public radio voice is... is actually one that has done those stories. I feel like. I feel like, yeah. I feel like it wasn't that much of reach. But anyway, the whole reason why we're out here

is because originally, you know, I was like, we got to go to this landmark. We even found a journalist who told this story, who've been working on it for years, a story that involves what used to be, what, the largest democracy in American pop culture? Bigger than sports. Huge.

Yes. We've gone beyond sports. Beyond sports. Into where? The institution known as Total Request Live. The show is Total Request Live. The channel is MTV. So Yergo, I am so glad you're here.

I need to make this about me for a second. Fair enough. Because your Odyssey, your personal odyssey into this story, which I'm so excited about, reminded me of the way that my life intersects with it. So this is Yorgo Architas. He is a journalist, a filmmaker, a stand-up comic. He's the guy that Bradley connected me with after he met Yorgo,

deep inside the very same electoral rabbit hole while on assignment from me. Yorgo had spent years of his life, it turns out, reporting a passion project, a forthcoming documentary out this fall entitled Troll, new kids on the block, Total Request Live, and the chain letter that changed the internet. And when I watched this doc, I got a sneak peek, I realized that not only does it capture my sensory memory of the late 90s in a way that is just perfect, it also is necessary for our investigation here. Because Yorgo happens to be the key to telling you the untold story of what the fuck actually happened on a momentous day in American pop culture exactly 25 years ago this week. But what I first needed to do was just tell Yorgo

all about how I was born and raised right here in New York City where this entire thing takes place. And I distinctly remember one day when my older sister, Tracy, who's four years older than me, did something that had never happened in our family, which is she skipped school to go to Times Square Yeah. To go watch a show

called Total Request Live. I cannot tell you how many people are outside. In sync fans, I mean, it's absolutely insane. Insinct TV's about to get underway. Please welcome him. They're performing the number one video on Total Request Live. It's InSync doing tearing up my heart. Guys.

So my ears are actually hurting from the streets. That was, you could break glass. Actually painful in terms of just the sound of hundreds thousands of girls screaming for in sync. And they were there to be celebrated on MTV in front of New York City and America. They're really popping at that point. So the things that I am already like staggered by,

rewatching this with you in 2024. Like how perfectly late 90s everything about this is? Oh, the fashion looks like. an old Navy commercial. Look at it. Jayce Chazet, who's singing right now is wearing an orange button down with a sweater vest over it. It's the silliest thing you can imagine. And then you got Chris Kirkpatrick.

Oh, my God. Wearing overalls and goggles and has blonde dreads somehow. Look at Justin Terbilik with the wet ramen hair. Yes. Look at that. The blonde curls just like piled atop. I mean, they're crushing it, though. This is a terrific debut.

Everybody is eating out of the palm of their hand. And there's the center of the world on MTV and my sister is in this studio and I know this there she is on the left

kind of looks like me right there? Yep, in the gray all the way back there? No way. How about that? That is Tracy Torre skipping school,

total delinquent to worship at the altar of peak boy band. Right there. Wow, Sister To I mean, making television. So that was September 1998. That was the first month of this show's existence.

Yes. NSYNC was king. And the show itself became like the thing astride like music and pop culture. TRL was a countdown show, daily countdown show. They do top 10 videos. And the whole idea was born out of, hey, we need to have some kind of programming for children. And so it's a top 10 list, which is like not a new. foreign concept.

But how are they doing it differently? They were making sure that it was voted on by the audience and that it was going to be a daily meritocracy of popularity. Yes. And every single day. Democratic process.

Yes. And in this democracy, who is getting elected? Primarily boy bands and pop bands. Their fame got to be the point where not only were these teenage girls And young people across America, very familiar with them as these icons, but the people hosting the show. The VJ.

I mean, your go, explain the VJ for people. So the VJ is a video jockey. I remember when I was in elementary school, everybody either wanted to be a veterinarian or they wanted to be a VJ when they grew up. Yes. And a lot of these VJs got massively, massively popular. Number one was obviously Carson Daly. He got plucked from a radio station and just rose to this. astronomical fame.

He was the guy introducing N-Sync in the top of the video we just played. Yes. It's wild to me that nobody would know Carson Daily, but I guess I'm very old. But he's on the Today Show now. That's right. But then there was other VJs. Like there was like, I spoke to Dave Holmes. He got very, very popular from that.

When it's a teen pop band, when specifically when it's a boy band, the teen, specifically girls go crazy. And suddenly it just had this snowball effect every day at 3 o'clock. like traffic in Times Square shut down so that 13-year-old girls could skip school and come directly into Times Square and yell at a window. This was an economy.

Like the business of this, the effect it had on music itself was real. And sinks, no strings attached, comes out. It definitely had the biggest one-week sales of all time, and I think it might have eclipsed 2 million in a week, which is a banana's amount of units to be pushing. They're obviously on MTV every day as the number one or number two video occasionally.

It's basically NSYNC TV also, is MTV at this point. They had to make a rule where you'd retire a video after 65 days. I drive myself crazy music video where they're just in an insane asylum because a woman was too hot. A tale is oldest time. Yeah, a tale is oldest time. And so TRL was very, very important instrumental in the promotion, in the showing. Yeah.

To the whole country, here is what's cool now. Yes. And it was Christina Aguilera, Britney Spears, 98 degrees, Backstreet Boys, both Backstreet Boys and NSYN. It was kind of a rivalry, both from Florida, and they both would just shut down Times Square. And the funny part is that, like, the boy band supremacy of 98-99, it resulted.

I remember in, like, in, like, running jokes about how no one can possibly unseat them, to the point where like the number three slot on the show was like a running joke. Yes, the number three spot was the corn spot. With a K. Freak on a leash is a terrific song and it holds up and a terrific music video. Like this is what's so crazy is like the N-Sync videos were good,

back-street videos were fine. But then you have like freak on a leash where there's a bullet down through everything. Like it's animated and it's live action and couldn't beat baby one more time or whatever. Never. Could never just do it. Could never beat God must spend a little more time

you. Yeah. Just. Always number three with a bullet. Always number three with a bullet. Yeah. Eminem was a major player in this era. He's big because of Tierra.

He was a person, I mean, frankly, who was palatable as a hip-hop artist to make it onto a mainstream show at that point. Limbiscuit also, of course, on the countdown. Very big. Kid Rock. There was like the alternative people for kids who had divorced parents who are like, okay, we need some real stuff. and there were the people who lived in the suburbs

who were like, my crush doesn't like me. I need to listen to N-Sync or whatever. Van Puff Daddy, just showing up like running on a treadmill. Probably imagining allegations are chasing him. I think he was peed at that point. And then it was, of course, like Beyonce and Destiny's Child era. Yes. Tom Cruise would show up because everybody showed up

to go speak directly to the youth of America. It got to the point where T.R.O. was so popular that they could be like, hey, Tom, Tuesday doesn't really were. Can we move you to Wednesday? Like, that's how much the leverage they had. Right. So this place, this studio, which was glass windows up above time square on like a second floor or so, you could see in front of you, just like this teeming mass of humanity who would just show up to be a part of the show. Also, because it's pre-social media and cameras, being on television meant a lot, even for just two seconds. Like, it was cool to be on TV. I know you've been on

television for a decade. You don't care. But a lot of people actually do care about just having a one moment and screaming high mom at the camera. That doesn't exist anymore. Nobody screams, hi mom. Hi, my name is Michelle Marks. Open the bullet goes into the poster. The stakes of this show are now obvious, right? This is an economic juggernaut that was capturing a genuine cultural zeitgeist

when it came to young people mattering financially, in terms of cultural influence, in terms of all of this stuff. What that meant was that these elections, the Democratic election, of who was going to be the number one video, the number two video, all of that stuff really mattered. I spoke to a TRL co-creator Adam Freeman about this, is that they played off it mattering to children and the fact that children and teenagers have no control in their life over anything.

They have to find out when they go to school, everything's very regimented and all their decisions are made for them. But when it comes to fandom and who gets to be on this television show, they got the opportunity to program it. And that was very intoxicating for them. Well, TRL, we were all about connecting the kids with their idols. This was pre-Twitter, pre-instagram. You know, you couldn't just vlog onto Twitter and see what Britney Spears was wearing that morning.

If you wanted to know something about your favorite artist or you wanted to make a connection with them, you needed a place like TRL to give you access. So in terms of the high school cafeteria that is American music at this point, Bodyed by TRL. 100%. If NSYN is, you know, prom king, who's now, like, uncool? Who do you not want to be associated with? As of this point, I would say in 1999, boy bands that were not cool would be boy bands who are now, like, teenage to, like, young adult man. And it's very uncomfortable to, like, watch them age in that way.

And so, with that being said, the biggest boy band of the late 80s and early 90s was new kids on the block. Yeah. They were, what we now think of nickelback and Imagine Dragons. They were that in 1999. New kids on the block by this point. I remember them also from the time my sister was into them. How old was she then? So my sister was born in 81.

Okay, yes. The new kids on the block. Like, they were in her locker for a time. They were very, very big. And they were all about talking about how tough they were. And that did not seem like something that you'd want to just think is cool 10 years later. Yeah, yeah, yeah. By this point in 98, 99.

it was essentially like watching something in black and white. They were the dinosaur that everybody was off of because they were now entranced by the new shiny stuff. They were just the old antiquated version of what we were watching now, and that just seems lame. It's like MySpace to TikTok now. Nugut's on the block also, they started off very squeaky clean, please don't go, girl, the right stuff, et cetera.

And then as they went on, they started to get more street, you know, and they would do the overalls with one thing undone. And, you know, interesting facial hair and tattoos and things of that nature. So they got a little tougher as they went on. And so the first boy band commits the cardinal sin of aging. They betray the very premise of their brand. They are now old and uncool. Yes.

And this is all to say that they weren't on TRL. No, which made them the perfect band to do, what ended up happening. And I spent quite a bit of my life trying to get to the bottom of this silly story. I would call it a catalytic moment in trolling history. A chain letter starts going around. I think we gotta explain what a chain letter is.

A chain letter is a thing where people would write out just these screeds and just forward them, and then they would most of the time threaten that all your family would die if you didn't forward it. And so in your subject line, It would go forward, forward, forward, forward, forward, forward, forward, forward, forward, forward. And then a whole, all caps, like you're reading Kanye West tweets. I'm like, please don't delete this yet.

And then you're like... This is a disturbingly accurate summary of what would occasionally populate my America Online inbox. Oh, yeah. And finally American Online started putting into spam. But it was like... But it was like, essentially threats. If you don't forward this along to however many other people, bad things will happen to you. It was like making people retweet with a knife to their throat.

A superstitious after the effect. Correct. I actually had Dave Homes read the letter for us. Hello, all. This is a chain letter that I am starting. Hear me out. There's nothing I loathe more than chain letters well, except for the teenage obsession and recent success of such male,

quintuplet vocal acts as the Backstreet Boys in sync 98 degrees and 5. The idea struck me like a truck while I was watching TRL yesterday. TRL, for those of you who don't know, is the abbreviation for the showcase of Carson Daily Witticisms that is Total Request Live on MTV. MTV itself being an abbreviation for music television. He's done his research. Here's what we all must pull together and do. Send this email to as many people as possible. The message is simple.

On March 10, 1999, everyone who has received this email will get online and before the airing of Total Request Live. cast their vote for the new kids on the block, epic music video, hanging tough. You in turn will not reap, that's misspelled, lifelong rewards and benefits if you do, but you will laugh your ass off if it works. It is the ultimate insult to popular culture. We can make this happen. It's just a pure, goofy troll. Just like, yeah, let's just thumb the nose at the people in power.

And so the thing that they want to infiltrate the democratic machine that is TRL with, the thing that is in control of music and culture in 99 is specifically this music video for this song, Hangin' Tough. It's not my favorite NKOTV song. Hanging Tough is kind of like the perfect encapsulation of like a time that I'm not familiar with. Yes, the late 80s.

This is what I think of when I think of 88, 89, 10 years earlier. Just big McGruff the crime dog energy. 100%. seeming like, and this would be a thing that became very popular in the 90s, was it seemed like they might have been posers. You just barely got chin hair and, you know, your voice is cracking because you're going through puberty. What the hell do you know about punching somebody with brass knuckles?

We have lines shaved in our hair. We have rat tails. We have distressed denim. We have early hot topic t-shirts. We have federation. We have dangling jewelry. And so this chain letter, in so many words, is taking off. Yes.

It started, I think, in January-ish, to get to, like, the first-ever thing is impossible because it through emails. Who wrote the initial email? Well, it is signed by a guy named James Vaughn, and it is impossible to find that man because there is no say whether or not it's a pseudonym or not. God, this is some V for vendetta shit. The voting mechanism, though, of how you participate in the democracy of MTV and TRL, my sister would call up the hotline and vote for the options presented, vote for NSYN all the time. You could vote by phone, which they had a third party that would collect all the data for them and fax it over.

But there are other mechanisms of democracy. Yes. You could also do it online if you went to MTV.com and just there was a whole bunch of options and then there was other. And you could type in what you wanted to see, and that's what they did. And so this is where our producer Bradley Campbell brought me an angle on the story, which was about how there were these computer science. Like, this is how big the chain letter movement got, apparently. Yes. There are these computer scientists at a university that we cannot legally name,

apparently. But they basically engineered this algorithm, this program that hacked the vote by repeatedly voting for other and new kids. on the block hanging tough on the website over and over and over and over again to the point where like this was now something of a movement and a movement to take over total request live it was also public that you could see on the website how much the percentage was going and it was starting to get to like the high 60s for other so there's documentation across the internet now that this is a thing that there's a movement forming there there are people who are cheering on

the revolution and when do the people who run totally? request live in MTV realizes when did they begin to take this seriously? A younger person on staff goes up to the bigger head honchos and goes, listen, on the message boards, they're saying that there's no way they'll ever play it and to frankly stop sharing the attainment letter because it's a waste of our time. But on the polls, it's very, very high. So we need to do something about that. And then after this conversation, they start really hunkering down and figuring out what they're going to do. We gave the kids the power. So if we somehow gave them the impression

that they didn't have any power, what are we standing on? So, Yirgo, this brings us to the fateful day in question. This is 25 years ago, this week. It is March 1999. What a time to be alive. And who was hosting TRL that day? Dave Holmes was hosting TRL that day.

My number one goal was just to not burn it all down when the regular host was out of town. But also make sure that before and after every commercial tease that something special is coming. Today's show, folks, brace yourselves. If there's a railing or a wall or a post of some kind for you to hold on to, I urge you to do so. We

have your top 10 requests. As always, two big debuts in the top 10 today, one of which is absolutely going to throw your mind. It's freaking us out over here. And they tease this over and over and over again. A debut video that's going to blow you away. And we're going to send one lucky and St. Fandita show it. That's all coming, but TRL continues.

Don't move. Oh, yeah. That's how I know is because I just sat there, nine years old, just so excited. Oh, I don't get me anything. And we haven't even gotten to our big debut of the day. Once you see that, you'll understand what I'm talking about. All right, welcome back. It's also, like, this episode, rewatching it,

is, it just bathed me with a warm glow of late 90s and nostalgia. 100%. the turn of the century aesthetic that we we love so much. But right now, let's get into the request. Are you ready to get into the request, folks? Nice, Your Adam. Let's start at number 10, shall we? Returning to the countdown at number 10 today.

It's Sugar Ray every morning. Now, these guys are touring with Everlast right now. They're bringing down the house everywhere they play. They hit Seattle tomorrow night. And making a dive on today's show. Down two spots to number nine. It's the offspring with Why Don't You Get a Job. Quite a contrast.

They debuted on Tuesday's show at number five. came in like gangbusters. Now they've already done to number nine. What gives folks? And then number eight. Yes. Fat Boy Slim. Fat Boy Slim.

Praise you. Terrific music video. Oh, just like VHS camcorder, almost like found footage, handheld style. Of them doing kind of a flash mob, an early flash mob in a mall. Number seven. Yes.

M&M. Hi, my name is. Hi. My name is. Huh? Yep. Just, just, gleefully white trash.

They switch over to number six. Number six. Orgy. Orgy Blue Monday. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I loved that song. Stop making Orgy sounds.

No, I used to love it, and it was so awkward to go up to my mom and be like, I love Orgy. I really want an Orgy CD. Well, it was a great juxtaposition with number five. Yes. One of the most iconic songs, I would say, in American history. I mean, I went through. puberty, not just simultaneous to this song. I would argue because of this song. It's weird now to say this, but first crush ever. It's actually mesmerizing as an artifact.

It's the school girl outfit, which is the biggest thing. Those lockers, that hallway, at one point she's holding a basketball. And it's just not, it's simply not hyperbolic to say that it is one of the biggest and most influential songs of American history. Yes. Fully agree. And so TRL that day goes from that into... All right, let's get back into the countdown, shall we? Let's check in with 98 degrees. They drop a spot to number four today. Here they are with the hardest thing. The hardest thing. I think it's a boxing music video where Nick Lechay wanted to get jacked. It's very dissonant because the visuals are boxing. Yes. And the music is something that a boxer

would never want to hear before a fight. And then, number three, in their slot. In their slot. Back to number three today. Here is corn with freak on a leash. Banger of a video. There's still movie magic in it. You still don't know how they do the bullet stuff? Nope. Still don't know.

Unfortunately, they were stuck in their spot again. Yes. As is their cosmic faith. Plus, we have a new number one and a TRL top 10 debut that had our statisticians kind of scratching their heads. We can't figure it out.

And he actually scratches his head because he is a pro. Yeah. I mean, he really is a pro. He's terrific. And I'm still just dying to find this out. Yeah. I'm in third grade, and I am...

Are they going to do it? Are they going to... What's going to happen? Where's the reveal? It could be anything. It could be anything. And so we get in the commercial break that he throws to a Jennifer Love Hewitt, Neutrogena commercial.

Breakouts in those tough to treat, hard to reach areas. And when they come back from commercial. Let's check out the totals for your number two requests. I'm telling you, this is going to rock your world. Now, I got 38% of your emails. That's the highest number ever, highest percentage ever for emails. 26% of your phone votes. Now, yesterday we got a few calls for this video.

We had some people outside holding signs. We're not sure what happened. It looks like you people just mobilized and put somebody on the countdown today that has never been on the countdown before. New kids on the block. I'm going to say it again, new kids on the block. Hey, you know, you ask, we give. Just a kind of irate groan, rumbling through America's democracy. It's just being upset at a surprise.

Because you can hear in the video, people go, oh. And then they start reacting. They go, whoa, voo. Oh, no. Even the people who were aware of the NKOTB movement, I mean, it was unclear until the very moment they put them at number two ahead of corn that they were actually going to show this thing that in reality, most of America didn't want.

Yes, but there was just a very small contingent that grew to be a bigger contingent on the Internet that just wanted it so bad just to say they did it, just for the goo. So I should point out that them getting number two on the strength as Dave Holmes cited of 26% phone votes is impressive. It would 100% be very impressive if it was true. So explain the truth of this fateful day in music history. So I spoke to one of the handful of people who actually counted the votes, and they straight up said that that number could not exist because it's impossible that new kids on the block would be an option on the phone voting. Wait, so describe how it is that phone voting works.

So you had all these options, NSYNC is like, you know, dial one if you want to vote for NSYNC. Yes. And New Kids was not an option at all. It's impossible that they would have been. They didn't put new kids on the phone voting, like, ballot. No, of course not. There's just the whole troll. It was just birthed from a galvanizing campaign on the internet.

And honestly, they closed the online voting portion or the polls 12 hours before the show came on. Why are they presenting fake numbers? What are they, what is MTV and TRL? What are they doing here? It's the kind of stuff that I'm sure executives would proudly brag about at cocktail parties. So this is where I do need to jump in and take a breath. And just point out that these executives, at these hypothetical cocktail parties

got away with something. Right? This whole fake 26% phone vote thing, these fake statistics that they'd put on a graphic on that episode of TRL that they had had Dave Holmes read aloud, all of it was sloppy, clearly. And clearly a clue.

Because I need you to remember what the co-creator of TRL had told us earlier. He had said, he had told Yorgo, that the reason these executives all started freaking out about the new kids stuff was not because of the votes. It was about perception. We gave the kids the power, so if we somehow gave them the impression that they didn't have any power,

what are we standing on? They were not concerned about the votes flooding their system, conspicuously, thanks to chain letters and Bradley's computer scientist hackers, they were freaking out after people started talking very publicly on message boards over and over and over again about how they were concerned that MTV probably wasn't even going to count their votes. And so it's finally time to find out the answer to that question, that last part, about what TRL was actually standing on this entire time, beyond just the new kids saga.

Because again, these teams, ERL executives were not freaking out because their electoral integrity was being compromised by an organized army of trolls. No, they were freaking out because people were questioning their system. They were freaking out because of a secret. A secret they would successfully protect and deny despite a sloppy fake vote percentage and made-up statistics for 25 years. and they would have gotten away with it. But I talked to somebody who was on the daily beat of counting the votes and accumulating the list.

And his name was Kevin Hershey, and he kind of laid it out for me. We definitely had to rewrite the rules for a request show because if we were, we got to remember, this was such a behemoth. such a money generator and it was if you allowed the other sort of category for true fans to just want their death metal band to show up on TRL, that wasn't a part of what the show was meant to be. So we had to very democratically decide as a group that we did want to program the show a certain way. So that said, only certain genres perhaps were a part of the voting process. That is a seismic revelation to me.

Yeah, it's pretty wild that he said that. And he's being very careful with what Howley is describing it. He used the word Democratic to discuss the discussion in the room of the executives who are deciding what to put on TRL, which is a funny choice of word because the definition of a closed-door meeting deciding the outcome of an election is anti-democratic.

Yes. In the big picture sense. 100%. They knew what they were doing the whole time. Of course. Yeah, they 100% knew what they were doing. And they were being very selective and kind of tipping the scales

in any way they needed to. Insofar as the democracy was... Not a democracy. No, no, not at all. No, I mean, look, so just to connect all the dots here, the reason why the show had this decision to make, as we discussed, when they were informed of the democratic movement, the grassroots effort to put new kids on the block onto TRL

in some sort of high-ranking spot, the reason they were so worried was not because they were going to put uncool music onto their cool show. Yes. Because they had so many votes. They were worried because the form of the form of the form of the show. The foremost laboratory of pop cultural democracy in America was not actually a democracy at all. There's no infrastructure to really, really count every single vote.

It's just a cloudy mess. So I wanted to say that I appreciate Kevin Hershey coming clean on this. Oh, yeah. I couldn't believe it. Like, we went over there. He was a sweetie. Me and my terrific director of photography, Ben Brady, we went over there and hung out with him. He's like, I'm just going to serve you secrets, bro. Just sit down and we're doing it.

Yes. So his title was Director of Music and Talent at MTV. Yes. The entire time, engineering what America's tastes were under the guise of just reflecting the will of the people. They were, in a sense, the shadow government of pop culture. And it gets even crazier than that. They had certain data where they could go and look and be like, oh, you know, Texas in the South, really like TRL that much. So we should get Jessica Simpson, who was from the South, and put her on this dial pad, maybe put her even higher up, maybe one or two,

so you don't have to listen to the whole thing. And then we're going to kind of culturally gerrymander to make sure that this person becomes a hit. The reason why other music videos then were falling in the countdown was not because of the meritocracy of votes. It was because there were decisions made that in this case seemed to be finally and suddenly impacted by the fact that the conversation around new kids on the block being this movement

were publicly documented. Yeah. It's like it's quite an embarrassment if you just see everybody being like, oh, you guys are full of shit. And then you end up being full of shit. You need to put them into the countdown. You have to by all means necessary, figure out a way to get there or else you're going to lose this idea of credibility that you have.

And then you get the whole ruse is up. Right. The whole thing's done. In my mind, it's like, look, we never actually plugged in these voting machines, but now all of these people are lining up at them. And they're all leaving with the exit polls indicating they're all voting for new kids on the block hanging tough. So if we don't put the most obvious exit poll result into our countdown, people are going to wonder, what about the voting machines?

Their decision-making process was the most fascinating part of this whole thing to me. Yes. Why they decided to put it at number two. The reason why they put it at number two, which is probably why they teased it so much, is because they wanted those people to watch as much, the people that were trolling, watch as much as humanly possible all the way, all the show, and get all of those minute-by-minute ratings that are so crucial. And so they got it and they decided to put them at number two.

So then they kind of win, but they don't let the trolls fully win. And then immediately after this, and they get all the ratings for it, which is just a brilliant plan for an example. I mean, also because, I mean, of course, like, number one is going to be. NSYNC, God must spend a little more time on you. Yes. Yes. Always.

And it sounds like what they wanted to do was manage this thing such that the people who were trolling them got some element of satisfaction, but not the full satisfaction that would have resulted in follow-up reporting. Which is what happened on the message boards afterwards, where they were like, oh, okay, at least we know the TRL isn't totally rigged. Right. Yes. What they did not count on. was that 25 years later, one of those kids watching TRL

would be like, what the hell's going on here? Why the hell did that happen? How did new kids on the block themselves feel about being the subject of this troll job and now quietly this epic judo move on the part of music television executives? Because of how big TRL was, Columbia actually called one of the executives

and said, thank you very much for doing that. Record scales skyrocketed. I don't know if Bradley told you about this, but Bradley told me that he had a friend who worked at Sam Goody, and for a week in 1999, the guy was like, I don't know what the hell's happening, but New Kids on the Block is flying off the shelf.

We can't keep this greatest hits on there. I don't know what's going on. So that's how it happened in the moment. But I spoke to one of the New Kids on the Block, Joey McIntyre, and got his perspective on it. I don't remember it vividly, but I do remember it happening. which was sweet little Valentine from the blockheads.

But he wasn't completely aware that it was a troll. That was my question, was how much did he know about all of the reporting that you've now revealed for the first time? I revealed it to him in person. Maybe I'm not young enough to know exactly what a troll was. But, I mean, adoration and fellowship and passion. for something you love is it's sort of a black and white thing. You know, how you package it or whatever it is, it doesn't matter. I mean, you have to recognize it at a certain point,

and I think, you know, that's what happened. They might have been trolling, and maybe I don't understand what a troll is, but it's good to know that people still give a shit. Right, right. And this obviously was probably just a blip for the new kids on the blog's career. They ended up selling out arenas and still do really, really well. But what it meant for the Internet is a different kind of thing. Because it's really the first example of the internet coming together to troll just for a goof and the institution being like, all right, we'll do it.

We have to do it. We're backed into a corner. And this leads you to, you know, Pitbull a couple of years ago had to go to Walmart. Oh, in Alaska. In Alaska because of an online vote. There's a huge Walmart slash Sheets energy strip campaign going on. And I heard that Kodiak, Alaska has the most like. And he actually did it because he's Mr. Worldwide.

And you have examples like that. Oh, the Booty McBoatface thing. The Natural Environment Research Council asked the public to help name the UK's newest $300 million research ship. Leading in the vote so far, Booty McBoatface. Where does that come from? There's so many different examples of this happening, and it all just started with this crazy chain letter on Total Request Live, emboldening groups to know that it's possible. Right, which is all to say that even if the thing they were subverting and taking hold of for

one day was not itself truly democratic, the movement that forced their hand was populist. Yes. Having now learned the truth behind this fateful day 25 years ago and what really happened, what are you left feeling? All of the people who got mad about MTV and had conspirators. about like all the record labels are in their pockets. Corn cannot possibly always be number three. They were actually right.

And it's very funny. And I think now... Yes, we are the freaks on a leash. Yes. A leash held by corporate television overlords. And now I look at a whole bunch of different situations when it comes to showbiz and just kind of wonder what's going on behind the curtain.

And I don't throw away kind of any conspiracy when it comes to show business. But the number one thing that I think I took away from it is that it does not cloud my vision of Total Request Live in any way. It is not like in no way has it solely anything that I know about TRL because it's a vibe. Look, their core insight was this is a show for kids.

Yes. Allegedly by kids. Yes. The latter part was not true, but the former part is still so resonant such that today, 25 years later, still feel like it. Yeah.

I still feel like a kid watching that show. Yeah. It's totally, it's like it's perfect and it's so of a time. And it's something that you can't really, it's a really you had to be there kind of thing. TRL goes off the year. It's November 16th, 2008. There's this big grand finale show. Yes.

The run ends after 10 years and 2,247 episodes. Damn. That's pretty impressive. In retrospect, it's, It's weird to do an episode where we expose something and are simultaneously nostalgic for what I was sold. I don't feel cheated in the least bit, like, at all. What Total Request Live did was recognize and fear and respect, like, the young person

as like a thing that mattered, as a thing that was... worth strategizing around and investing in. Like it's really, it felt like it was cool. And it was for big kids. Yeah. And the concept of big kids, I've forgotten about, but it was a real thing. Yeah. Kids getting to feel like they were at the grownups table.

And not only were they at the grownups table, they had to choose what they ate. Yes. That's pretty cool. Oh, God. Even if it turns out that our parents were in charge the whole time. Yeah, the entire time. They were just making it's like, you know, you need to have your, your, your, nutrition. Yeah, you need to have your

corn. Oh. F*** you, Pablo. God damn it. Urgo, thank you for your reporting. Thank you for, and I mean this sincerely, thank you for bringing closure to my puberty. Oh, I think

you're still a couple years away from that. Okay, for more info on Yorgo's doc, which is very, very different from this episode, I will point out, please check out troll dock.com. It's going to have its world premiere at the CineQuest Film Festival in Silicon Valley this Sunday. It'll be screened at the Florida Film Festival and the Dallas International Film Festival in April, with a lot more to come. But for now, this has been Pablo Torre finds out a Metal Arc Media production, and we'll talk to you next time.