Pablo Torre Finds Out - The Journalist vs. The Interviewer, with Adam Friedland

Episode Date: August 15, 2025

The host of “The Adam Friedland Show” is here to come out of the closet as the secret inspiration for one of PTFO’s most controversial episodes. Also: Pablo and Adam’s (real) LSAT scores; loving Kobe; telling Kobe how your ass tastes; @perfectbooties; if LeBron is the Millennial Michael Jordan; the secrets of good interviewing; calling Tony Kornheiser; photo shoots; campus protests; dunking on Chris Cuomo; Jonathan Livingston Seagull; cucking Richard Nixon; and value premises. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out. I am Pablo Torre, and today we're going to find out what this sound is. Let's say our value premise on three. One, two, three, justice. Israel. Just kidding. Right after this ad. How's your summer been good?

It's good. It's good, man. You've been working the whole time? Yeah, yeah. I just finally took a break. I was going to say. But you're in the midst of like prepping. your Frost Nixon. Well, I had Frost yesterday.

Oh. I had the millennial congressman Frost. Do you know him? Maxwell Frost? Oh, that's a real thing. That boy, a freak. He elected 25. The first year you can get elected.

I just Googled him. I recognized this person. He's the first young bull. Because the Democratic Party like shanks any other child, like young, you know, like Zoron. Yes. They don't want any new talent.

They just want, like, you know. So he made... They want Smeagel and whatever. He made... He's their precious. And I think that he's the one that's not... They got through. He's like progressive.

Are we on the show? Oh, yeah, yeah. We're going? Is that okay? I didn't know. Do you... You did the sneak attack on me? Yeah, I did.

Dude, I have, um... I have studio envy right now. You... Hold on. Because you came to me first. I did. And I'm like, voila, Pablo. Yeah, it's a full-on.

theater. You have a mid-century showroom of a theater. This is the most gorgeous. You have 27 people behind the camera. That's right. I feel like a multiracial rainbow coalition that we've assembled here to surround you. Is it every single race is represented? The United Nations. Yeah, the DNA test would indicate. You have the flags everywhere. We have a rice cooker with a soccer ball in it. Oh, nice. Can we restart? Can we restart? This is mostly what I do. Can we restart? So welcome to Pablo Pablo Torre finds out. My guest today, Pablo Torre, Adam Friedland here.

We're quite good friends. We're coming out of the closet as friends today. You did something when I left your studio. I farted? No. I've been holding it in the whole time. I don't know if you even caught this because I did, and I was like... Is it embarrassing? No, no, no. You just said

you said on the way out. I was in there. You were premiering the Sarah Jessica Parker episode. Okay, so you're like, as I said, the president of girls. So, or like, you're like, you know, you're the number one. You're the reluctant leader. Yes, father the country. So I just want to ask you as at your majesty, your highness, what the answer is to some questions I have about girls.

Okay. Okay. So when they say, take these fries away from me, are you supposed to physically do it or do they like, do they say they taste good? Oh. I don't know what to do. Yeah, fabulous. Really, the peak. It's a hard thing to sum it.

The peak is not nice. Well, oh my God. Your peak, well, your peak was the Frost Nixon over with the LA. Oh, sure. With the king of Boston. That's right. Fair. Okay, let's start again.

Welcome to Pablo Tori finds out. You told me on the way out, you're like, love you. Oh, I say I love you a lot. Yeah, and I said. It's embarrassing. Oh, you have issues with that? No, I just didn't know if this was. was I was kind of calibrating, like, is that...

Am I one of many people who he tells that to her? I'm a slut. Yeah, yeah, I'm a ho. Yeah. No, no, no. What's your body count on the I love you? Oh, my God. I'm Chamberlain.

Yeah. Neville, Chamberlain, not Wilk. Ha, ha, ha. No. It slips out. Yeah, it slips out. Genuinely, I... It's only to guys, though.

It's only to guys. It's all great. You can't say, you can't say it's to, like, a platonic female friend, but... Not anymore. Not in this culture. Yeah. Thanks for having me, dude. Dude, it's funny that you have been...

Can we call a Coronizer? I will call Tony Cornhizer at the very end of the episode. No way. Yes, and we'll see what happens. We'll just see what happens. Will he pick her? We'll find out.

We will authentically find out together. I'm not going to be able to stop thinking about it until the end of the episode. Football is upon us. Saturday college kickoffs. Sundays, of course, it's a... The pros, surfside ice teas and lemonade plus vodka.

They got you covered. And it is not a seltzer. How dare you suggest that? It's surfside. It's 100 calories, 2 grams of sugar, no bubbles. So just ask for surfside wherever you stock up for tailgates or watch parties or postgame hangs. You've got to be 21 plus, obviously.

But please, please drink responsibly. I want to convey to people that you are. Boyce of a generation. Many people will be excited that, that you're here. Others, I think, should be introduced to you, maybe. Yes. Thank you.

I want to establish that, you know, various headlines that may have appeared in GQ and otherwise. Not true. I mean, there are photo spreads that indicate all of it. Very embarrassing photos. Yeah, yeah. What was the headline? I want to get it right. Is he the millennial Adolf Hitler?

I believe it was Adam Friedland could be the millennial John Stewart, period. it. Thank you. Because you want that question mark. That's as far as I read. Actually, I read the first sentence, or the first, the beginning of the article I read, and then I was like, I got scared and nauseous. I watched my girlfriend read it. I was like, is it a hit? Where's the hit? She's like, no hit so far. And then it's long, right? It's very, it's exhaustive. And it's very, it is rightfully complimentary. Oh, okay. I would say that. Thank you. Your lip is quivering in the, in the, in the photo spread with again just a real crackling masculine

emotional openness I saw those they made me take the picture on the floor like the sexy one I was like can you not use it and they use it as the main one I stopped the floor part I was like I'm not can we not do this and then they use it the main one yeah they're like can get that elbow crook at 45 degrees

I got basically every comedian's group chat just I I instantly knew I was like, everyone's killing me right now. People text me, they were like, this is terror. You look, I hate this. I had a photo taken in the studio right over there in front of that vortex for New York

magazine, and they had me do a pose at the very end. And it was like, can you just like hold your chin in your hand? And I was like, they're not going to use this. And then I looked like, you know, Professor X. Sexy. So one of the sexiest guys. You know Dr. Evil. Yeah. Pinoy Evil.

Yeah. you are genuinely beyond being host of Cumbtown, which is a show that I can't even begin to explain here. It was like a comedy podcast. Yeah. With naked and stuff. Super, super influential. This is very sincere.

A super influential, wildly successful, generationally identifying. Unscripted improvisational podcast with you and two friends. Yeah, it was like we just act like children for an hour. It was a comedy podcast that we did for a while. And I'd never, we didn't listen, I'd never listen to it at the time. And on YouTube, they're like, fan generated clip comps. And I've listened to it since.

And I was like, it was so funny. We thought it was terrible at the time. We're like, that sucked. But, uh, yeah, it was so funny, I guess. Yeah. Turns out. Yeah. Turns out they were, the fan, the fan clip accounts were on to something.

I think we'll, the fan cams, the Adam fan cams were onto something. We had a no media policy that Nick instituted quite, quite a. I didn't appreciate this. Well, also, the name prohibited us from, like, I think we were, like, said, like, a podcast whose name we can't write in this fine publication. And we, I guess that's how the show grew, right? So, because, like, the fans were making these, like, compilation. We had no idea at the time.

It was cool. It's the best thing you asked for. Yeah. Is organic. Yeah, yeah. A street team, if you will. Yeah. Yes.

A volunteer army. Yes. A volunteer army of ugly men, yes. Yeah, your proud boys were just... Come on, dude. Come on, you know. No, it was hot six-pack guys. It was sexy guys.

Also, like our staff, a multiracial coalition of very proud boys. Yeah, yeah. But I say all of that to say that the show that you do now that I visited, it's not that, and it is something that I love. Thanks, bro. And part of what I love about it, genuinely, is the sincerity of effort that I witnessed that is quite real. Yeah.

You're putting work into this and it's not, let me sit down to see what happens. It's like, no, you're prepping and you're structuring and you're producing. Yeah, it was like, I think it was the first time I tried in my life. 35, I decided to try. Well, it was the first time I tried since the LSAT. Oh, God. You told me you were going to tell me what is it? That's right.

What was your, this is an exclusive? I've never said this. Yeah, what was your? I said a lot. So the first time I got the LSA. You went to heart. I mean... No.

So I took it... So the legend... I took three. You took three? Yeah. I took two. Three... But the second time I thought I...

My second cousin is a psychiatrist. So I told my parents I needed Vyvance, which is like the most intense ADD medication. And I was like, it's going to make me smart. And it turns out being on drugs that my score was not enhanced. So... Yeah. Okay, what? One, two, three, one sixty-nine. Oh, wow.

161, that's what I got the first time. No, no, the first time. Oh, yeah. 161. 161. Okay. And the final time. Was that, wait, did you say your score the second time?

No, the second time is a wash. What does that mean? Because I was on drugs. Oh, okay. I was drus. I was drunk. I was drunk. I was drunk.

I was on PEDs, but it was a, you're getting nervous again. I'm getting the same nervous. I know. This is real. I got the dinosaur game my third time. It f***ed my hat.

I would have been the president of the United States if it wasn't for the dinosaur game. No one knows what we're talking about. If you don't know, so I recently learned that on the LSAT, the thing that I consider, we both considered clearly

the most fearsome section is logic games. I was, no, once you figure out the system that you know they took them off for these snowflakes. That's not about to say. The snowflakes, that they're gone.

now. I can't believe it. That's... I mean, it's just... We should go to law school together. We should retroactively, we should get our stats adjusted. We should leave our women and start a personal injury law firm together. Excessive plastic surgery, start over in a new town. Yeah. Pose for photos at very particular angles. Yes. And put them on billboards. I think we just wrote a movie. I got a 161 the first time. Okay, same. Really? Literally same. Oh my gosh. Okay. This is getting... This is very relatable. So you know what you beat? You beat me or you didn't beat me the last time?

Yeah, I got a 171 the second time. Whatever, dude. So. So you think you're better than me? I didn't need that to know. Did you apply? Did you apply? No, no, no, no, no.

I never did. Oh, I did. I deferred twice to do, and I told my parents I wanted to explore my stand-up comedy. Oh, man. It was really embarrassing. I came out of the closet as a clown to my parents. And my father said he was going to sue me. And I said, that's not how the courts work.

He's like, you promised us you'd be a lawyer. And yeah, so then I told my parents this is what God does send me on. It's, oh, God, it's nauseating to remember that. I think I was too lazy to do law school, so I started doing stand-up comedy. What a stupid idea. What a fucking millennial, like, tell my parents I want to be a, I'm not even good at stand-up comedy. I told my parents I wanted to be a sports writer. That's a real job.

I don't think it's that much more real than clown. I'm so jealous of that job. No, because there's actually, you get paid by a company. That's true. I was getting drink tickets for 10 years. Yeah. And working as a paralegal. My real passion.

Anyway, to go back to what we were saying initially. Which was? Yeah. We kind of changed the show. It was Nick Mullins' credit to him. This is how everything happened. It would start as a joke because I was the leader. popular, I was the schmuck of Comtown.

And we're like, what if we made the least popular guy in Comtown into like a public intellectual Dick Cavett-esque talk show host? And then it kind of became a real thing. I kind of started to enjoy doing interviews and now we're three years in and yeah, now the show's, you know. And now you're like really good friends with Chris Cuomo. I think Joe's got it. Really?

Yeah, it's sick. Are you going to vote for Joe Biden? I think. When you say he's sick. You mean that he's dying? No, I think he's awesome. Oh. He's got a, he has a core event and stuff.

I don't know. We'll see. Yeah, I think, I don't know. I love the dynamic. Genuinely. Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, I did his show on News Nation. You have been, so I was on a panel with Andrew Yang, and I could just tell that I don't think me and Andrew Yang liked each other.

I did not get the sense that you guys were vibing. He, well, because they were telling me what anti, that the campus, that the campus, protests are killing, that they're killing people at Columbia or something, it was insane. This isn't just about anti-Semitism. It is about the growth of fundamentalism in America. When you have kids who are openly pro-Hamas, it's not just anti-Semitism. And you guys are going to have to vote and donate in a different way and not forget who was for you and who wasn't in this moment. You got to stop with the kids. As the Jew on the pet of Andrew, you're Jewish or no?

No, I'm Jewish. I'll say this right. I'm too. We're acting as if kids are protesting at a college and is the first time ever. No. I mean, we gave $25 billion to a war and kids are protesting it. It's not pro-Hamas. It's the most global thing in the world. Many of them are.

No, it's not. They're kids. And it was violent on some of these. Okay. Listen, guys. People are being attacked and killed. I mean, you know, this has gotten very, very... And it's hateful.

There's nothing wrong with being against what's happening in Gaza. But I'm just telling you, I've never seen America. I don't think that 18-year-old kids are the problem right now. Guys, I got a 169 on the L-Sat. I got a 169, Yang. Okay, I got a 169, Yang. How much money does that get me every year? No.

So we started the talk show, and now I do interviews, and it's been really fun. And tomorrow's a big one, we're not going to say what it is. I was going to say, well, that's the Nixon part of the Frost Nixon, you know. He's my favorite president in terms of the writing. The writing on Nixon is the best. The writing about... The screenwriting of that character is...

He's an incredible guy. Do you know about... He's a guy that just lost his whole life. And everyone was like, ugh, you're Richard Nixon. He beat Kennedy. And then America was like, we'd rather have a papist.

We'd rather let a papist with a criminal, like, steal an election than Richard Nick. Yeah, he was like, he looked ugly at that debate. You think JFK benefited from pretty privilege? No, I think he benefited from dead people in Illinois voting for him, probably. What? Okay, but here's the best, one of the best Nixon's, I'll give you right now.

Okay. When he, he liked Pat, who became his wife, and he was like, do you want to go out with me? She was like, no, like, you're Richard Nixon. and he was like, well, can I chaperone you on dates with other guys? And he did it for 18 months. Richard Nixon. That's great writing.

Cucked himself. Well, no, he got to win her heart. He broke her, I mean, she broke, yeah, she eventually was like, I'll be with Richard Nixon, I guess. But, yeah. He was, I think. I visited, I was at a wedding in California, and it was within driving distance of the presidential. Did you go? Yes.

Yeah, we love Nixon. I got a shirt of him shaking Elvis's hand, that one. That one, Elvis was on fat Elvis. The anti-drug thing, right? I believe that must be why Elvis was there. Yeah, and he was on a ton of speed at the time and fat somehow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, he has...

Which is such a funny idea is that, like, the kids are going to like Elvis to tell them not to do drugs. So, like, this is exactly why he was there. So King of Rock and Roll visited the White House in 19. With one goal, this is the subhead of an article, to have Nixon grant him a federal narc badge. Which is, that's the movie actually would like. That's a Shaquille O'Neal move.

Yeah. Like how Shaq was deputized by Sheriff Joe Arpaio. Where is Arpaio at the? He's dead. I think he died. Sheriff Joe. We're just hanging out right now. Googling.

This is how we talk to each other. We change the subject every two sentences. Sheriff Joe Arpaio is 93 years old and thriving. Good for him. You guys are going to enjoy Pablo and I changing the subject 17 times saying you remember this guy. Do you remember Muki Blaylock? Yeah, yeah, yeah. John Olerud.

Well, this will cut down. Yeah, yeah, definitely. We're definitely going to exhaustively trim this. So what's up? How you doing? Can we call coronas? Do you consider yourself a journalist now? I don't know.

What is it? You know the, you know. You didn't go to J school? No. What are, like, the rules of it? Well, that's part of the problem. Have I broken any of the rules? I don't know.

But I think part of the issue is that there is no good answer that's widely known to that question. Like, what does it take? There are certainly—the Columbia Journalism School has a philosophy on it. Various other august institutions have journalism programs. So there's no, like, DSM of, like, the rules? Yeah. There's no— There is 700-page text that tells you whether you're clinically a journalist.

So no one, I mean, but there are journalistic ethics, right? Yes, yes. Right, yeah. I mean, you've worked for news organizations. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. ESPN before. Sports Illustrators where I started. That's like a real publication, right?

And they, who taught you the rules then? Who's your guru? That's the funny thing is that like, so my first job, the job that I chose, instead of going to apply to law school was it's a fact checker. Uh-huh. And that was not like a seminar. It was just like a thing you started doing. Like you're truly the lowest rung of a newsroom ladder.

That's the, that's like the mail room. Yes, except in this case, you saw, you saw. You were like a spostra. You were like in the tape. That's right. I was grinding. Yeah, you were grinding. And you worked your way up.

And you had to cross off every single word in an article to make sure it was true. And that really did, like, convey the foremost, I think, principle of whatever journalism should be defined as, which is you have. you have to try and be as accurate as possible. Yeah. I think that's probably task number one. Uh-huh, yeah. But, like, journalism to you, how would you define it, actually? I don't want to just give you my takes.

I mean, when I have, like, an interview that's more substantive, I have, like, a friend of mine who is a journalist who, I mean, we do research for the interviews. And so he, he, like, works on the, like, a research packet for me, and we, like, talk about. I don't know. I don't really... How would I define it? The newspaper? I don't know. Is that what journalism?

I googled it when I first started doing interviews. I went on Wikipedia for journalism. Because I didn't know how to do interviews. And I watched a bunch of different... Like, I was like, who's good at interviews? And I watched Rogan. And what he does is like, he's like... Well, he agrees.

Like, he's very exuberant. And he, like, an easily impressionable, maybe? I don't know. I'm trying to say it in a number. a nice way. He's a colleague. He's a friend. But he'll have like Bernie and he'll be like, I, that's right. Joe Rogan is a great listener.

He'll have... He'll say that. He's a great active listener. Well, when a guest is on the show, they feel like they're crushing. Yes. Right? So he'll have Bernie and then he'll have like, I don't know, like a Holocaust revisionist and he'll be like, that's trippy. And then because you feel like you're... Take it out.

He's a friend. He's a good... Whatever. And because people feel like they're being... convincing he can get more out of them. I think that part of what Rogan is there, though, is a really good interviewer. But I think part of the definition of journalism is that that's not exactly the same thing. I don't really know what anything is anymore. It's a schizophrenic world and comedians are now public intellectuals.

All I know is this, I really want to be careful not to speak from a position of authority. Like, I hear a lot. There are a lot of people nowadays that think that they that aren't Wolf Blitzer that have podcasts that will say things. Like, I had a congressman Roe Conn on. That's why I ask. I can't be like, you have real guests.

I can't ask him like, what do you think about HR 27? Like, I'm not a fucking, I don't know, like, I'm an idiot. I'm a comedian, like, you know, I'm not Ezra Klein. So, like, I'm not. But I can ask someone. like, you know, like no one likes the government. Why do you want to be in the government? Like, that I feel like...

So asking really good questions, which I think you do. Yeah. And I think you're really good, frankly, with people who, like, seem to regard you as an alien of some kind, especially, and or people that you seem to not respect a lot. Oh, I'm not... I don't try to do that way. It's my point of view that you have. Well, I think what it is is this is like...

So, like, when I watched Rogan, I was like, can I emulate that, like, And no, I can't really emulate that because my voice is annoying and Jewish. And like, so what I do is what like, what comes natural to me is that I can just self-deprecate. I can be like, listen, like, you're sitting next to a guy who pooped his pants on a podcast once. And so like that is a factual. Yeah, I'm a schmuck. Like, so like, America doesn't, people don't like know it all's, right? It's the same reason why like Federman had a, like, had a stroke and like was struggling through a debate.

Dr. Oz was so smug that they're like, we're going to vote for the guy that was having trouble talking, right? So during the Pennsylvania Senate run. John Federman. Yeah, John Federman. And the guy that wears the hoodie to Congress, which is, come on.

We can all agree. Put on a shirt. You know, like... I feel about John Vetterman the way I feel about NBA coaches, honestly, where it's like, you could dress up. John Fett... But at least they're wearing, like, golf, like, business...

Like, Friday business... At least they're wearing like, yeah, they're wearing, exactly. So like what I can do is like, is if a guest disarms if I'm like, you know, like, just, you know, like, and if I can like make them relaxed, then, you know, if they, if they're self-aware enough to realize, I don't want to come across as a know-it-all schmuck, I'd rather, you know, then they'll kind of drop their guard. And I can like, you know, then I can kind of talk to them in a more natural way. Yes. And I don't think people are used to talking to someone. like as unremarkable and mediocre as me. So like them trying to make sense of it, I think is kind of an advantage that I have.

Because I'm so, I'm just like, you know how AI is going to take all of the jobs? Like I don't think that they could do something that's just so, like, just so nothing of a, you know. I don't think like a computer could emulate something so stupid and unremarkable, right? I think that's my advantage in life. I think I'm always going to have a job doing this. Do you think Chris Cuomo's going to listen to this and be like he was working me the whole time? No, we got along, I thought.

But that's, that example, by the way, it is like jock nerd. That was the dynamic immediately established. I was dunking. I think that he was the nerd. Well, but that's, that's, that was the joy of it. Was that it got to be Chris Cuomo having to like reckon with the fact that you also knew what you were doing

and he started to play along. I know ball. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I know sports. So that's kind of, I think,

I think when you're doing interviews, you have to kind of like, it's like when you're starting standup, you have to like look at the thing that's, when you're starting stand up, you're like, what is fun? Like, what makes my friends laugh? Right?

So when I was doing interviews, I was like, what's the thing about me that's like makes people feel comfortable? So this gets me back to like the definition of journalism to me because I think asking really good questions, asking them charitimately or strategically which you've been describing is not quite journalism, but the thing you just said about who am I doing this for, I think journalism has a defined answer. And that answer is, and I'm going to break out the scare quotes, the public interest. Like that's who I'm trying to serve. That's the real distinction to

me. There are like substantive cores of each one of them that I'm trying to get to, but I have to get to it in my way. Which is, by the way, and I am a subscriber and an imitator and somebody who tries to do the same thing. It needs to be stupid to get smart. I believe that as well, like fundamentally. If you, like, I had this, like, internet debate guy, destiny on the show. Oh, I know. And I know. I didn't know who, I didn't really know who he was before I started doing the research. But I saw that everyone who, like, was interfacing with him online, I, I didn't know that it was a thing that you could be famous for online, which is having an argument, right?

What feels like satisfying for you while you're doing one? I don't want to step on any toes and open the most divisive issue ever for a prior guest, but I did a lot of preparation for the Finkelstein interview. People said I cooked him way harder than you. I don't think that ever, I don't think we ever debated anything of substance. Not on your debate. I didn't watch a 17-hour debate on Lex Friedman about Israel, where some fucking goys pop.

off about my shit. So everyone, he's like a guy that can read a ton and get all the stats, right? And you're not going to get more stats than him. So what I realized was like, you've got to come to someone like that. Everyone's trying to get more stats and more documents than him. And he's going to have more than you. So you have to come to him with no documents and no stats. And that's like kind of what, like, if I'm approaching something,

someone saying like, you know, you're wrong or like I know and you don't know, then it's going to be adversarial. I did high school debate. Destiny is a familiar character. Lincoln Douglas? Yeah. We're like the same guy. We're the same guy.

Let's say our value premise on three. One, two, three. Israel. Just kidding. But the thing about destiny, which I enjoyed in your. interview of him was that you did not try to high school debate him. And I think part of what you do really well, which I admire is that you find conflict, verbal rhetorical tension while not doing it in the way that a high school debater would.

You check facts insofar as I can tell, but that's important. I don't want to be a journalist. I just think that people just don't care anymore. People just aren't reading it. They're probably on Twitter looking at people getting killed and like, well, you could, Twitter is Sodom and Gomorrah these days. It's so scary. I can't look at it anymore.

Did you see that like that stat that like a super majority of accounts on Twitter? Or what? Just bots at this point? Really? Yeah. Really? So everyone likes Jewish people still? Because I got, I was getting nervous there for a second.

But I think your point is a fair one also that like the reality of how we get news and use our phones. Probably more people are like, you know, Rogan's probably getting 10 times. more people than Anderson Cooper every day. But as a sports fan, to bring it back to the guy that was the peak of my career, I also think that like modern journalism, like what Bill Simmons did in sports, is a really good way forward, actually. We should disclose... Sports is doing good, you're saying.

I think that identifying your fandom and not pretending like you're this omniscient voice from nowhere... Uh-huh. Oh, being a homer. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, like, just disclose it. Yeah. It's okay. I respect that about him as a Laker fan, even.

And that's, by the way, so our friendship really did escalate when I'm like, all right, Adam loves to phone call people. People get really annoyed by it, but yeah, I'm a phone call guy. So is Tony Coronizer, by the way, like just refuses to have the deposition records. The discovery refuses that. Yeah. But the point being that, like, you as unapologetic Laker fan, calling me and talking for an hour about your fandom,

I'm like, you still can be somebody who writes or covers sports as a fan. You just got to disclose that part. Sure. And that's okay. But the NBA media is just all Boston. Yeah. Right. The green hand.

Our friends, Ben Bick and Andrew Quo at Cookies. Those people. those people. The Boston Media Mafia. The Little Green Hand. Yes. I'm out of the closet as a Laker fan and people just be aware of that.

But, you know, it doesn't feel... You're unhinged. I need him. I need him. Who is him? He doesn't feel the same with him as it felt with my... Yeah. Capital. When the Lakers won in the bubble, I like thought 30 seconds later,

I'm like, it's different. He's never going to be our... He's never going to be my guy. Him. I don't know. I'm a Kobe fan. And you know what kids do nowadays? They're player fans.

Oh, this is the biggest problem for the NBA as a business. Really? Yeah, is that kids don't watch games. They follow players. Does it make more sense, though? I think it's kind of, that makes more sense, right? It's a, by the way, that's exactly what's happening in media. It's like, I'm not like a genie bus fan, right?

I'm not like a, or like an outfit. Now I'm Mark Walter, your new owner. Yeah, we're going to do great things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're going to do some huge things. He's also a friend. But truly, like, that whole thing, though, of, like, young people would rather consume an individual's stuff.

Joe Rogan instead of fill in the blank institution. Yeah. So, too, is it in sports fandom? Where I'm not paying attention so much to the team. I'm paying attention to my favorite guy, whoever my favorite individual creator is. That's sweet. Yeah.

That's real. That's how kids are apparently demographically trending. Yeah. What's interesting is, that I think that we didn't know who guys were prior to like social media and stuff, right?

Like, we thought like MJ hung out with Bugs Bunny every day. We thought, like, we didn't know that he was like, um, you know. He had hate in his gut, you know. We just thought he was like, just a like a nice guy because he was so insulated

by Nike and by the NBA. By the way, David Stern. The last dance is another good case study and like, is this journalism? So my friend Jason Hare directed it. He does not identify as a journalist. But what he got Michael Jordan to say in which he's crying, articulating his code of honor. I don't have to do this.

I only doing it because it is who I am. That's how I played the game. That was my mentality. If you don't want to play that way, don't play that way. That's also like supreme perfect interviewing to get that part. Not the goat. Not your goat. Not my goat.

But you're a LeBron. What I'm saying is this is like, I feel really bad. Well, like the distance between it's, I hate this word, like, but the creator and then the consumer is blurred. Like the music production and the worker. There's a really good, like, interview David Bowie, like in the 1990s where he like predicts the internet, right? Where he's like, the distance between the Beatles and the workers. Elvis and then the fans was just light years, right? And what the computer is going to do is it's going to blur it.

I think we're actually on the cusp of something exhilarating and terrifying. It's just a tool, though, isn't it? No, it's not. No, it's an alien life form. What do you think, I mean, when you think then about the future... It's their life on my... Yes, it's just landed here. But it's simply a different delivery system.

system there. You're arguing about something more profound. Oh, yeah, I'm talking about the actual context and the state of content is going to be so different to anything that we can really envisage at the moment, where the interplay between the user and the provider will be so in Sympatico. It's going to crush our ideas of what mediums are all about. So now everyone gets mad at LeBron for every single day, for like trying to do something and then stepping, like sideshow bomb, stepping on a rake. But I feel like now...

So you have empathy for that part of his life? I mean, like... When he liked perfect booties on Instagram and it got caught and screenshot. I have empathy for the fact that like he's kind of the beta tester of this... Dude, he's our generation. LeBron is the first millennial John Stewart

Michael Jordan Generation. And because he's the main guy, like, Steph can go to, to, like, what's that guy, that concert? Benson Boone concert. And, like, if LeBron wore that hat at a Benzsen Boone concert,

LeBron would have gotten killed. What I'm fascinated by is, like, there are all these, like, you know, you could read an infinite stream of opinions about you, right? Like, there were three newspapers MJ could read. and, you know, he'd have the journalist killed and then they, you know, whatever. But these guys, like, what I've come to understand is that these got, that all of them are, like, LeBron does consume the LeBum accounts.

Even if he's not burner. Okay, so I, this is where I should. And that drives me insane. What I should reveal to our audience is that you don't get me in trouble now, too. No, but you're the number one person who persuaded me. To look into the, did LeBron go to the Kobe Bryant Memorial? I told my dad that, and he's like, you just ruined the playoff run. He's like, the playoffs are about to sign.

He's like, why are you ruining the season? You convinced his podcaster to establish that he never showed up. Okay, this is an interesting thing that I'd love to talk about. But you were the person who are like, you should look into this, and I did, and you were correct. But let's be Christian for a second. Okay. The two of us are God-fearing Christian men, right? We never saw Michael be nice.

Be like a tender ever, right? He was at his Hall of Fame speech, drunk, talking shit about Byron Russell. He's like, if he wants to come see me. It's like, no one remembers Byron Russell except for us. Ryan, in fact, yeah. The first, was it by Brian? But it was spelled weird. I know, everybody's.

Is this a Barronstein? Okay, anyway. Can you imagine? The spelling is different. B-R-Y-O-N for- Can you imagine? Like the first time we ever see M-J, like,

and it was one of the most beautiful moments ever. He said there was this kid, and he bothered me, and he annoyed me. And he used to call me in the middle of the night. And I was like, this fucking guy. and I realized he was like he's like a little brother

and he was in pain about Kobe at the memorial and he's like I love this person and if we accept the premise that MJ won't even speak according to your former colleague Stephen A. Smith that MJ won't even acknowledge LeBron's existence

can you imagine how painful he wore 23 growing up can you imagine watching Michael who ignores you and thinks you suck and like uh and has been torturing you probably through the media for the last 20 years uh about and somehow the goat debate is a thing when we see a guy who's 40 and 20 what was he 24 8 and 8 last year at 40 um can you imagine how terrible that would have been for lebron the stakes of that memorial service could not have been more emotionally profound

Yeah. Like, that all is real. Like, the Shakespearean whole, like, there's everybody, like, Michael Jordan is in the way that Bill Belichick has been, like, America's emotionally unforgiving dad. But he was nice to Kobe. But he then reveals after Kobe is not around to hear it, that he had always had this tender spot for this guy who was, like,

trying to do Michael Jordan. You're actually tearing up. It makes me want to cry. This is, again, I love the utter. the utter sincerity around your fandom. You know the, do you know the Michael Jackson story? What is, what is the? You don't know the Michael Jackson story?

Wait, about Kobe? About Kobe? So Kobe studied the greats, right? It was like in his office, it was like Steve Jobs. Oh, God. Yeah, it was corny sometimes the way he'd talk about it. But like, it'd be cool because every summer he'd come back and you'd like go to Houston for a summer and then have the dream shake.

He'd like add a new weapon every summer. I love that. Yeah, I love that. I love that. We love that. bald-headed Kobe, a slam-dunk champion rookie, was a babe. He was 17, right? And on that first off-season, he's like, I need to get a man's body, right?

So he was in Gold's gym, and he's lifting weights in Marina del Rey, California. And he gets a call. And he picks up and he goes, Kobe, it's Macal. And he's like, this is a prank, and he hangs up. And the person calls back. is like, Kobe is Michael, I want you to come to Neverland. And he goes out to Santa Barbara. Tell me

if I fact check this. No, so far this is accurate. Fact check this. It was a gold's gym. How did I get that right? Okay. He's at Planet Fitness. And anyway, he goes out to Santa Barbara in Neverland. And Michael, apparently, they have this conversation. Michael's like, listen,

I see you and you're like me. And people are going to heap you with praise. People are going to give you everything and tell you you're incredible. This is a paraphrase, but the quote from the story. Am I close? Oh, it is.

This is Kobe recalling how inside the French Normandy residence, otherwise known as Neverland, a 2,700 acre cornucopia of trout-like delights according to this ESPAN the magazine. Yeah, it's great. Only good things happen there. The two men share a meal of marinated chicken and organic vegetables. He told me, quote, this is what you love. This is your obsession, Brian, calls. He said, I know what it's like to be different. Embrace it. Yeah, Michael's like,

they're going to give you everything and they're going to take it away. And everyone, and everyone's going to love you and then all of a sudden everyone's going to hate you. And you cannot stop. This is where Michael shows him the smooth. He shows him like, and he gives him a book. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So he shows him footage of Kobe had never heard of Grace Kelly, Fred Astaire, Ginger Rogers before this private screening by Michael Jackson, in which he explains the inspiration for smooth criminal, by the way. But the book, do you remember the book?

Jonathan Livingston Seagel. It's a book about a bird who wants to fly higher than any other bird. A novella about an outcast bird who's unwilling to conform. And he said, we are that bird. And when everyone hates you, you cannot stop being great.

So, again, like, I'm laughing because this is a madly. but it's also your And it is what happened in Kobe's career where like he went emotionally this is exactly right He went evil Kobe after Shaq Basically he got blamed for the breakup of that team

And it wasn't his fault It was much more the buses Right They say that Kobe broke up that team And then Shaq is at a club Wins it basically rides D-Wade's coat tails To a chip And then he's at a club

And he's saying tell me how my ass tase This is about B IG A.k.a. Big Shat. Now that's the difference between first and last play. Kobe. Nita. Tell me how my ass tastes. And everyone's laughing at Kobe. That is a great clip.

That's not that great. Well, let's start. I love it. I love Sheriff Shaquille O'Neal. Rapping. Okay. You're going to play the Detroit Pistons, and then the referees are not going to call a single foul against you guys.

Oh, God. That series, you want to hear really funny. You got beaten by... By Ben Wallace? By a six-foot. to center. He played big, though. I mean, he was amazing.

He played big. My dad, I think, like, four minutes before we were about to lose those finals, my dad said, he stood up and he goes, we never go on family walks. And he's like, every, we. And he's like, put your shoes on everyone. And me, my sister, my mom went on a walk with my dad where he was like, five, feet ahead of us, like walking as fast as he could because he was so bad.

He was just working out in rage. And so, but anyway, yeah, apparently Michael was like, do not ever stop trying to, like, be with your obsession. Do not ever stop like trying to be as great as you could possibly be. Go four for 28 every single night.

In your last game. And then you will take one million field. Goal attempts. That is the most... The score is 60. Oh, shut up. That is the most beautiful sports memory of my entire lifetime. I cried.

I legitimately called my father and we were both crying. Because do you remember that last season? I watched that game. That whole season was... Was terrible! It was a very... Nauseating. Nauseating retirement farewell tour.

Well, no, it was so engineered by the league. Every stadium that was like... Like, you know, everyone acted like there were Kobe fans. Exactly. That's what was... was so annoying about it. It was like, it was a retconning history.

Every stadium did a video tribute and we were saying goodbye to him and he was done. His legs, his knees were gone. He sucked. And like, we were seeing him, he had that double digit, like, points streak. He was scoring, like, six, you know,

on 28 attempts or something. Like, it was heartbreaking. It was like, why are you doing this? It's, like, nauseating. And, uh, we got him back one night. We got... It's God. It's God.

It was perfect. No sport is, I think, narratively theatrically more interesting on an individual level because, again, it's like there's no better seat in sports, by the way, than being on the court for a basketball game. It's like being on stage during a play.

Yeah, yeah. And so you see the faces, you see the tears, you hear everything. Like, it is theater. And so the NBA has these individualized, like virtuoso performances. And the problem is that the kids today, the kids today, like they... With these goddamn three-poenas. But no, but they individualized that phenomenon to the exclusion of actual games relative to us, relative to our parents, certainly.

And that's like the gift became the curse. But the thing that we're talking about, I think the kids can understand. Because the beautiful moments are a 17-win team. like winning that one game or Michael Jordan like this guy that we've never seen be like

this beautiful moment in this beautiful speech or KD talking to his mom I mean it's just like you're the real MVP I mean that's one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen when you didn't eat

you made sure we ate you went to sleep hungry you sacrifice for us you're the real MVP. Because it's like you create narrative and we love like to follow these people's careers.

And like human, human and follow these stories, right? And that's part of the reason why Tiger makes me so sad. Because like and when he won the Masters. And when he went and I was pride when you won the Masters. Because we're at the eight, we were, did you have

SI for kids? Of course. Like. Buzz Beamer? Do you know, Grant Hill was big on, in our era. Well, Grant Hill was like, he was like, he was like the role model. He played the piano. He was a nice boy. His dad went to Yale. Yeah, yeah.

He went to Duke. So, Tiger was like the good boy, right? And then we found out that he had, he got ladies or something. And then, yeah, the Perkins. And then he went away. Like, we felt like. Well, he got deeply broken physically. Yeah, from thinking that he's like a Seel Team 6.

Well, he did do all those Navy SEAL exercises. His dad did, used to say that he believed that Tiger would, be on par, if not in excess of Gandhi when it came to his impact upon the world. When we were kids, we were like, this guy's the greatest of all time, and he's also kind of a kid, right? And he's winning tournaments by like 19 strokes,

and we're like, this is awesome. Like, we're part of this thing right now, and then he went away. We didn't get to see him anymore. And then he came back and won the Masters one time. And it was like, we saw our friend again, time and it was like, I missed you. Like, it's, it's, that's, that's part of the same, I guess, a, uh, phenomenon.

I love ball. I just love sports. It's very obvious to me that, uh, your genuine love of ball is like the thing you're most passionate about. I care about sports more than comedy. I, I don't care about it. I like songs and sports. Songs, yeah.

I like movies. movies, songs, and sports. Which is why Shaquille O'Neal is criminally underrated in your personal Hall of Fame. It's a recording artist. As an actor, recording artist, and ball player.

All right. So what is journalism? I think we should call at the end here. Can we call Cornizer? Tony Cornizer and see if he'll tell us what it is. Oh, that's a good button on the episode. You're a real pro. Dude. That's a great button on the episode.

I'm trying to land a plane here. Land is fucking plain. He better, please pick up. This would be one of the best days of my life. I love him so much. I know. It's, I mean, same. Here we go.

Here we go. Do you remember being home sick from school and watching PTA? They're about to tape PTI, but we can sneak in. Let's see. Is Wilbonne there? Will Bond's going to be way late. So I think we have time. Here we go.

Hold on. God, I'm so nervous. Hi, you've reached my voicemail. This is good enough. There's a message. See what happens. What do you want to say? Uh, uh, uh, Mr.

Cornizer, big fan, Adam Friedland. I just, you know, I would honestly, if you'd like to come on the Adam Freeland show. Oh, come on. Sorry. Sorry. I just, I'm with Pablo right now, and I just wanted to say, what is journalism question mark?

Yeah, but it's his voicemail. Is he going to call us back? Probably. Yeah, just, yeah, I was wondering what journalism. Love you. Oh, love you. Do we get it? Votauri finds out is produced by Walter Aberroma, Maxwell Carney, Ryan Cortez, Juan Galindo,

Patrick Kim, Neely Lohman, Rob McCray, Matt Sullivan, Claire Taylor, and Chris Tuminello. Our studio engineering by RG Systems, sound design by NGW Post, theme song, as always, by John Bravo, and we will talk to you next time.