Pablo Torre Finds Out - The Room: Behind Closed Doors of the Messiest Ritual in Sports

Episode Date: February 6, 2025

Luka Dončić is just the latest athlete to be deemed too expensive by their employer. But Major League Baseball has a special solution to this problem that is at once top-secret, excruciating and embarrassing. Because when a player and his team disagree on the new salary he deserves, baseball puts them before a tribunal of judges... and lets them argue over how much that player sucks... in front of that player. All-Star second baseman Dan Uggla and journeyman outfielder Cody Ross re-confront David Samson, the former Florida Marlins president who stood between them and their millions. And they have a lesson for every athlete who dares to enter The Room. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out. I am Pablo Torre, and today we're going to find out what this sound is. Listen, don't threaten me with that. Right after this ad. You're listening to Draf Kings Network. Look at his background. I like Cody's background better than hugs. You don't like the wood shades?

You don't like the wood shades? That's the best you got for $60 million. You got wood shades? Hey, we're budgeting over here. Budgeting. Budgeting. Can you get in front of your World Series jersey? That's right, dog.

That's a safety deposit box. Safety deposit box. He went for the money, Cody. You went for love and fame and World Series and LCSMVPs. You're welcome, by the way. Oh, that's right. Thank you. Thank you.

It's the nicest gift I ever gave you. That's the trick. Getting rid of your ass. You know, you really embody this team what it's all about. I mean, Florida didn't want you. They put you on waivers. This team put a claim in on you. And here you are, the NLCS MVP.

Yeah, I can't thank the Giants enough for giving me the opportunity to come over me. For $1? For $1. It was a dollar. It was a waiver claim, and the Giants called us after they claimed him and said, you're not going to let him go to us, right? We were just blocking him from going to any of our competitors. and we were like, we're not paying Cody the rest of the year.

We're letting him go. Larry Bear called the commissioner to try to interject because they didn't want to take on his money. And we were like, sorry, if you're going to play the game of trying to block your competitors from getting a player, you have to risk taking the player. And we called Cody into the office and said, Cody, love you, man, but you've been claimed by the Giants.

Go speak to the traveling secretary because you get on a play. It's your ass out. We had cleaned out his locker. We had done everything. I want to explain one of the craziest rituals, processes in sports to people that have no idea what it is. And in the course of doing that, we will learn about your relationship. But I do want to just, like, establish some basics.

So at the beginning here, because there are now three voices that are not mine on this episode. Could you say your name, when you played for the Marlins? And maybe an adjective that best. describes your former boss, David Sampson. My name is Dan Ugla. I tell everybody that comes in here. This is the house that David and Jeffrey Loria built. They're like, David who?

I was like, David Sampson. I was like, oh, I know who that is. Outspoken is actually a very good adjective, but, you know, for lack of a better vocabulary, that's kind of what I'm going with right now. Cody Ross played for the Marlins, from 2006 to 2010. First of all, Dan, you're making me dizzy, bro.

You're like moving around. I know. I mean, I'm like, I had too much wine last night, maybe. I don't know, but you're, you're got to like stay still for a second. You're so fidgety. Let me get a, let me get a. I was going to say, I mean, do have an office. Do you have an office?

Do you have an office in your 15,000 square foot house? There we go. Let me get some. I need a place of put this thing. I mean, geez, Louise. Here we go, here we go. I remember my first Zoom. Yeah, it's horrible, right?

It's so unprepared. Here we go. That's what Josh Johnson did. Hanley's Homer and triple. Dad Uncle did you? His name is Dan Ugler. Wow. There's the guy I drafted in Venice of baseball.

There is. Anyways, back to me. Yeah, so 2006, 2010, never really got an opportunity at the first few places that I was at. And then got to the Marlins and had an incredible opportunity. I remember being with the Dodgers in spring training in 2006. And I was just praying, I'm like, please, like, let me go to the Marlins. I see what they're doing over there.

They're young and they're enthusiastic. And anyways, yeah, so I guess, I always say this to people about David. I say he's the second best president I've ever had in my life. All right. This is where you have to question. Everybody else is tied for first. I always was honest with the players.

And I think that that's something that most front offices just aren't. And the tendency is to just treat players like chattel. to not involve them in anything and to be robotic and to not be human. And while people accuse me of that, I actually, with these guys and with many other of our players, I just wanted you guys always to know where you stood and where we stood and that we always knew that there was business and then there was personal. So this is where I need to mention that this is going to be an episode about the insanely personal business of Major League Baseball. As revealed, through the arcane ritual of a thing.

known as salary arbitration, which is happening across the sport right now, even during Super Bowl week, as we speak. And if the term salary arbitration sounds boring to you, I get it, because I used to think that way too. But then I found out that the NFL and the NBA refused to operate the way Major League Baseball does. And for good reason, it turns out. Because when a baseball team and an arbitration-eligible, you know, it's not a baseball team and an arbitration-eligible

player disagree on what sort of a raise that player deserves, the sport does something truly mind-blowing. They put that team and that player in the same room before a tribunal of judges, and they close the doors. At which point, everyone proceeds to argue before said judges about how much that player sucks in front of that player. Now, everything that said is kept off the record, obviously, completely secret. And in fact, salary arbitration is so infamous for poisoning work relationships

headed into spring training that some franchises in baseball will simply pay a premium in order to avoid ever having to go through this mess at all. Luckily, however, I found the one-team president who apparently cannot wait to talk about that mess. And the same is true of his journeyman outfielder, Cody Ross, and his all-star second baseman, Dan, what was at stake for you, Dan? Again, I know you as the guy on my fantasy baseball team, power hitter, guy hitting 30 home runs, and then in 2009, what's at stake for you ahead of arbitration, as you remember it? I was actually on the verge of possibly setting the record for the most money ever in arbitration received by, I don't know if it was

was like all players are just second baseman. I can't remember. But I know that that was like... It was old white power hitters. In the lead club. Very elite. Right? So I think, I think, I think, so I think that Mark was set at like 5-5 or somewhere around there.

And David, I think, I believe you guys were around 4-2, 4-1. And so it was, hold on. It's funny. It's funny that you guys are so rich that I need to clarify the hundreds of, of thousands of difference here. 535 was what Dan wanted. 4-4 in millions we're talking about is what our friend David was willing to pay you.

That's right. That's right. So that's a pretty big difference, right? So you're at 4-4 if you lose. Just if you lose arbitration, the player gets what the team is offering, which would have been $4.4 million. And if you win, Dan would get 5.35. There's no middle.

There's no splitting the baby. The arbitrators either choose. to side with the player or the team. Right. Right. And by getting to that point, you know, we obviously, there's a big gap between negotiations and that we couldn't come to.

So that's how you end up in the room. Right. But, Cody, this is to say that this is a process that happens because of a fundamental disagreement about how good you are, how much you are actually worth. Right. It's a better way to put it, yeah.

That's correct. Yes. And I'll remember my, very vividly, although I don't remember the actual numbers. You could probably tell me the numbers below. It was a comically smaller difference than what Dan was dealing with. Dan, again, we're talking about a difference about a million dollars. In Cody's case, we're talking about you were asking for 4.45.

David was offering 4.2. And so, and this is what happens is... It's classic, Samson. This is what? happens with Marlins, I think, were the first team to start this file and trial bill. So if you filed a number, there was no negotiating between the time you filed and the time your arbitration hearing. So there was a deadline. I'll never forget, my agent was calling me at the night at the witching hour going, hey, they're not budging. And I'm like, well, I'm not budging either. And so we'll just

go to arbitration. And so hung up and sure enough, the time came. And I'm like, let's see if they budge. You think David's budging? Hell no. He ain't budging. And so he texts me or called me the next day. He's like, you idiot. Now we got to go to arbitration in Florida. Ah, gosh.

This is going to be painful. Just wait and see how much we're going to talk about you. You're going down. I'll never forget it. To finish my story, I'll never forget. I fly in to Jupiter for spring training. And our arbitration cases. in Tampa

and David calls me and he's like, hey, he's like, hey, I'm taking my family to Tampa and do you want to jump on the jet with us to go to your arbitration case? So I'm like, and so my wife and I get on the private jet, but meanwhile, it's probably

costs more to fly there than on a private jet than what I'm actually going to either win or lose in arbitration. And so so we get on the Yeah, we get there. We're cutting it up, having a good time, going to the room. And even though I put up a good year going into that year, like, they bring out some of the craziest stats you've ever seen in your life of, like,

how bad you are. And compared to, you know, some guy from 1973, like, what? How do I compare to that guy? Typically, in the case of, for instance, the Giants, right? They had a policy that I was reading about, and they were, like, undefeated in arbitrations for two decades, apparently. But the president of baseball ops for the Giants, he did not want to be in the room for arbitrations

because it was reported, it would help better preserve the clubhouse team spirit to not have the guy you'd have to see every day be the guy who was telling you, by the way, you're worse than you think you are. And so I just want to set the scene of like, David, it feels like a courtroom drama and also maybe a reality show

and also maybe a game show of some sort? Like, can you set the scene for what the fuck this is? So the scene is this, that when a player has between three and six years of service time, after six years you're a free agent, for the first three years, the team has the unilateral right to decide the salary of the player

as long as it's at the minimum or above. But in the middle three years, the player and the team have to agree. And if they can't agree on a number, they're not free agents. They can't go to another team, but you then go to three independent arbitrators, who have to decide the salary.

And what you do is you go into a room, a literal room with a rectangular table. And I couldn't disagree more with the Giants President Baseball Ops. I think he's a wussy. You've got to be willing to go face your players and you've got to be honest. And so I didn't go to arbitration

with just Dan and Cody. We went often with players, some of whom we never even met until the arbitration room because we had just traded for them. Kevin Gregg, guys, I met in the arbitration room. Redmond, I met in the arbitration.

Their first impression. Hey, good to meet you. You suck. That's literally how the relationship started. And our job is to explain to arbitrators why what the player wants is not reasonable and you use what are called comps. You find players who have stats that are similar

with numbers and salaries that are similar to what you want to pay. And the player gives different players and explains why they should be like those players and the arbitrator decides. So I want to ask Dan, your emotional state heading into this, your dress code heading into this, I don't know baseball players to be guys who love wearing suits as a comfort zone. I didn't sign for a lot of money.

I signed for $40,000 out of college. And so the league minimum, once I got to the big leagues, was my first kind of situation with decent money, right? So now I'm about to become a millionaire. It's either going to be 4.4, you said, or over 5 million. So I'm excited either way, right? I'm excited either way. You're wearing your best suit.

You're like, you're prepared. You're like, you know, I set some records going in. So I'm pretty cocky. I'm like, man, these, like, these f*** got no chance, you know, going to embarrass them, right? You know, my agents are like pumping me up. And then we go in and then they present their case. And I'm like, oh, shit. I'm like, I'm not as good.

I'm not as good as I thought I was. Like Dan, I mean, I'm coming from basically nothing. And I'm, you know, we're talking about a few hundred thousand dollars. Yeah, so basically you're in a hotel conference room. And it's like David said, a long rectangular table on that side of the table is your team that you're playing for. and the commissioner's office has a couple of attorneys, and then over here is the Arbiters. On my side, I have my agents, attorneys, MLBPA attorneys,

and then so I'm sitting closest to the Arbiters, and I see David over there, I think was Bynfestner? I can't remember. Yep. Was Bindfest there? Yes. Yes. And I just was looking at film the whole time.

David's got his little smile. and he's like smirking at me and I'm like smirking at him. And meanwhile, my agents are like, hey, you can't like, when they're talking about you, when we're talking about you, you just like, you're literally like in a courtroom. But I just wanted to go in and hear what they had to say because I felt like even that was going to make me better going into the following year. Wait, that seems so unrelatable to me. Yeah, I wanted it.

I wanted the smoke. I heard all these horror stories about, you know, people going into arbitration and you know, creating bad tension and bad blood going into the season. You could have a bad taste in your mouth for the organization, but I really didn't, even though they hammered me, which was amazing. At the same time, I'm like, wow, where do they get this? This is incredible. Like, they pull stuff out of their, literally out of their ass.

It was a tough process to go through, but at the end of it, it was absolutely, I would do it over 100 times. Cody, let me remind you of a little nugget that you're forgetting, which is you negotiate with the player right up into the deadline, and you don't know what the player's going to file at, and the player doesn't know what the team's going to file at because you exchange numbers right at a deadline. Do you know that Cody Ross filed at a number below his last offer to us? Cody, I don't know if you remember this,

but this was the only time in my career, and it made me insane because not a lot of, only did we go to the room over 250 grand, but when you filed at 445, you wouldn't go below 4-5 based on comps of ghosts. And we were like, if this guy files at that number, he loses. And then he goes in and files at a number he can win at. And when he filed at 4-4-5, I remember like it was yesterday, he filed smartly knowing that we're a file-to-go team. So we're not going to negotiate with him. And he has to file a number that he can actually support. Which you didn't realize that Cody Ross was just a-

there for the experience. He just wanted to ride the ride. He told me that after and I almost broke up with him because you said that to me, Cody, but I remember he's the only player who ever said that to me. Well, just to, again, state the obvious maybe. It never is the case that the player is there to hear this except for inside of this room. They never get the unvarnished thoughts. And I also want to just establish that when you walk into the room, there are these three arbitrators there, right? A panel that has been, I guess, decided by both the league and the union in concert. Cody, do you ever anything about your arbitrators? I do not, actually. I mean, I couldn't pick them out of a group of two, any of them. I have no idea. I wasn't focused really

on them. You don't remember a gentleman named James Oldham from Georgetown Law, who was a researcher of English legal history in London in his spare time. He had written a book called The Mansfield manuscripts and the growth of English law in the 18th century. It's a, Even now a little shocking when people ask me how long I've been on the Georgetown law faculty, and I answer, well, in truth, half a century. That was one of the arbitrators. Yeah, I mean, I honestly came in knowing nothing. I don't think my agents knew anything about the arbitrators other than that they're supposed to be neutral.

The arbitrators don't talk during the arbitration. They don't ask questions. They just sit there and listen. And they don't give a written opinion at the end. All they do is rule in favor of the team or the player. You don't know why. You don't know whether it was a two to one or three to nothing vote. You only know the result.

So there's zero accountability, which is why possession arrow is an important part of the arbitration system, where if the players have won eight in a row that particular year, the team is going to win the next one no matter what. Wait, wait, just to clarify what that is, what you're saying is that there are decisions rendered that are not on the merits of this specific case. They won't admit it, but it's true. It's 100 guys, I don't know if your union told you that, but possession arrow in baseball arbitration is a real thing.

Yeah, my agent told me that, actually. So just to again clarify that, it's the idea that these arbitrators are agreed upon by the union and the league. So to keep doing this job of arbitrating, they need to be satisfying both sides. That's exactly right. They will, because at the end of every arbitration year, the players union can point to a name and say,

I don't want this person involved next year, and the league can't do anything about it. That person's removed. The league can do the same thing. In order to get appointed year after year, you have to have satisfied both sides. And to do that, you have to give wins to both sides. And possession hours just a term of art. It's obviously a basketball term. It alternates.

So you know that if it's been five league wins in a row, the player's going to get the next one. Dan, just remind me beforehand, what did you heard from other people? Like, what's the reputation of this whole process, this whole ritual before you actually got to experience it. Well, you always hear kind of like, you can't, you can't, like, be friends with these people. They're going to talk

trash about you and they're going to mean it and all this kind of stuff. So it's like, it wasn't the best, sorry, it wasn't the best advice from, dude, I know, it's like, so stupid. It's like holding his iPhone. No, I'm like, I'm holding wires

out of the way. I mean, this horrible spot. The sun's coming in on me. My phone's dying. Can't find my AirPods, you know? This is Dan Agla. This is Dan. This is Dan.

So after I get done here, y'all need to talk about five minutes while I charge it because I got to unplug my... So anyways... He's being serious. I'm dead serious. I like that we're going on a tour of what appears to be the largest house in the world.

Oh, gosh. It is. It is. I wish. I wish. Don't mind the two-six right there. Dan's carrying his phone through his estate. He does have a beautiful house and a beautiful family. Where are you going, bro?

I'm going down to show him your jersey right there. Come on. Oh, there it is. Nice. I love it. So, getting out of the sun. Dan has settled his phone at yet another wing of the estate. So, yeah.

Passed by the jerseys. He just walked 15,000 square feet away. His basement. That basement's amazing. Y'all should go check it out sometime. That's a good one. When you enter the room, is there basically the clock already ticking? Because these are how many cases a day in some circumstances?

You have morning cases, 9 a.m. cases and 2 p.m. cases. And generally, arbitrators will hear one or two cases or three during the course of a session in Tampa or in Arizona. It switches off. And it's just funny because I remember Dan's arbitration, we were arguing about a lot of money. And it was a tough one because, Dan, you had great bulk. What is that? What does that mean? Great Bulk is when you go into arbitration, you've got a lot of stats.

You have a lot of home runs, a lot of runs batted in. You've played a lot of games. So you are able to say that, look, I have performed. He was an all-star. I'm sure you remember this, Dan, but you were a pre-arbitration all-star, which also counts for money. Twice. Which is why we offered him what we thought was more than we needed to at 4-4. And he was able to call on players, you know, of the, you know, the Cabrera ilk,

practically because of what his numbers were poohalls and all sorts of people who we said you're not even close to and we were wrong arbitration is a manifestation of the ultimate breaking down of an athlete trying to break his will his confidence by showing that he's something that he doesn't want to believe he is there's a reason why the manager is not part of any arbitration hearings and the front office is there's a reason why certain front office people don't want to be involved right because they don't they can't skate the other side. Well, yeah, just how do you... I want to get into the mind of David Samson

trying to throw haymakers to take down the incredible bulk. That's what you do. You try to excuse it. We talked about the fact we would remember, guys, that we would have to mention that the Marlins always were last in the league in attendance and that we had no revenue. You blamed them? That's what we would do.

If you guys were better, we'd have more fans. Amazing. Amazing. I told out a lot of stops. If you guys were better, we'd have more fans, I thought. That was a good one. It's the only moment at which David Samson regretted personally inflating and lying about attendance numbers. We would actually, in the arbitration, say that.

We would say that don't look at our attendance that's announced, and we would go through what our real attendance was. We would admit that in the arbitration, because it's all confidential. You said that they should entrust those numbers because you are dishonest. Exactly. Do you remember a moment when you were like, oh, that punch that David threw was a little bit harder than I was ready for? I just remember, like, certain stats that they threw out. And I was like, oh, man, like, that is below the belt.

Like, I think they were trying to pin me on me not being a starter. Because I wasn't a starter when I got to the Marlins. I worked my way into being a starter. I was a platoon player. Somebody would get hurt. I would play like, you know, 30 games in a row. And then the guy would come back and I would kind of platoon. And so going into arbitration about three years in,

I've only been a starter for a year and a half. So they were pounding the arbitration guys. Like, this guy's not a starter. He doesn't, you know, you can't look at him as a starter. Even though I came in on my platform year, having a really good year, they were just pounding. Like, he's not a starter. He's not a starter.

And I'm like, okay. I get it. I am a starter, but you're telling me I'm not. Now I don't think I am a starter. Well, our argument was that you can't compare him to starters because he was only a circumstance starter. And we didn't want the arbitrators to believe that we viewed him as anything other than a bench player

who could be a good fill in on a bad team. And also, and also a good point. And also I got, thrown in. When I was really young, or not really young, but I came in at the center fielder

in professional baseball. And so my agents were like, he's a center fielder. So they were comparing me to all the center fielder. And David and them were like, he's not a center fielder.

We only put him there because we had to put him there. At this point, if I'm Cody Ross, I'm resolving to not be friends with David Sampson anymore. I mean,

I don't think, I don't think that that's true, Pablo. I think that I was communicative with the players who went to arbitration with, and we would explain the process. So when both sides view it that way, there's not animosity. Like you hear horror stories,

and you learn pretty quick that like, all right, am I going to be tough? Is this going to bother me? You realize it's part of the business. Your first instinct would be like, oh, man, F these guys. I can't believe they're not paying me. I deserve all this.

All of it poured on, you know? And that just wasn't our first. relationship. I think that has a lot to do with, you know, David just, you know, being straight up with us. And I would tell all the players that are going to go through it, that haven't been through it is like, embrace it, you know, enjoy as part of it. It means you're good that you're going through this. I would say, like, when you ask me, like, why would, you know, when you want to throw a punch it, David, I would say no, because a lot of what they said, like, you can't deny some of the stuff that they said. So I'm like, man, even though that hurt, there's a lot of truth in

that. Like, I can see where they would come and try to bring that case and try to make me look like a certain player. I was actually, yeah, I was actually pretty, I was like, holy shit, they're comparing me to this guy. Oh, man, that's cool. You know, they're like, telling me that I never got an MVP vote and this guy has. I'm like, that means I might should have got an MVP vote, you know? I got screwed in that. You were honored by not being Albert Pujols. You know? I was never supposed to be there in the first place. You know, it's just so happens.

You're Marcus Giles, bro. That's right. Yeah, 2.0. Marcus 2.0, baby. That is something. I think that it's also important to know that it's really hard to get to arbitration. The majority of baseball players, first of all, you never make it to the big leagues. And if you make it to the big leagues, the overwhelming majority don't get three.

years of service. They don't get an opportunity to get into this system. And I think Dan and Cody are two examples of players who understood that. And there's some players who just don't get that. I want to know, David, we've created a summit here of people who are shockingly reasonable about a very contentious courtroom drama. What's it like when it's not quite as sympathetico? So I can only tell you in all the times I went to the room, I was able to be Because of being honest, I was able to disarm the players. The difficult part is when you go with the player you don't know, and then you just have to build a relationship from a first and 20,

from a negative spot. And that was the case. Do you guys remember Kevin Gregg at all? Oh, yeah. I got a Kevin Gregg story. So when Kevin went from the Marlins to the Cubs, we played them in Florida. Dan hit a home run off of him to tie the game in the ninth.

And I came up right after and hit a home run to win. Oh, yeah. I didn't even see it because I was so high-biden. Back to back. Kevin Gregg. Dude, geez. Cody Rock. Boom, boom. Kevin Gregg.

I just like that somewhere Kevin Gregg's like, what the fuck, man? I'm just going home, hanging out. Suddenly I'm dragging to this. He had a career, but when we acquired him, he would not settle. And he was a bastard and his agents were about it. And we said, no problem. We'll go right to the room with you. Good to meet you.

And he's a very tall. Huge. Greg, do you remember, like, he's a big man. He's also, six-foot-six, two-four-five. He has this menacing look. You know, Cody and Dan look jolly, and they are. Kevin Gregg is not what I would call a jolly guy. He's a reliever, right?

That's his whole job is to intimidate. He is intimidating. Remember he had those glasses, like, that he would wear, that you never knew whether they were prescription, and he happens to be a great guy, but didn't know this at the time. You called him a bastard like 30 seconds ago. Because I didn't know him. And he would not settle.

after the trade and he said and his agent said we will not budge and we were like we're going to the room and the agent said you're going to acquire a player and then go right to the room without ever knowing him the room and that's what we call it the room and i said i don't i'm not scared at all and so kevin comes in and he's like i was born in the room raised by the room like listen don't don't threaten me with that and so but then after that when i introduced myself to him outside of the room when we went back to spring training, we built this relationship that was built on a mutual respect and honesty and he was a very talented guy. But that was a tough, tough arbitration because we were explaining why we shouldn't have traded for a guy. We basically were saying, I can't believe

how dumb we were to acquire someone who's this bad, that we shouldn't be paying him any amount of money. And he didn't know me at all. And he was hearing us say this. It was a tough one. So, The room that you're describing, you're talking about a player that you acquired where you're now saying, oh, this is a mistake. If you're trying to trade that guy to someone else, though, you're saying the opposite. You're saying how great he is. Yeah, the room, it's an interesting place. And I think Dan and Cody would agree where it's like Vegas, where what happens in the room is supposed to stay in the room.

And you're supposed to take it as its own entity. And some players are better at it than others. These two guys are amazing at it, but not all the players were. There's ego involved. We don't want to lose a case. We don't want the arbitrators to believe that players are worth more than we thought because we do it for a living. How does this whole thing end? So are there closing arguments?

Each side closes and they say to the arbitrator, the final word from each side is, so I hope that you will see from the evidence presented that Dan Ugla is worthy of 4.4 million and that you will rule in favor of the club. And the player ends with, I hope that you will see from the evidence that Dan Oggler is worth 5.35 million and you will rule in favor of the player. There's a thank you. You shake hands. You leave. And then you go back.

You literally go back to spring training immediately because there's workouts. Arbitration generally, many of the hearings happen during spring training. And you have to get back for spring training. And what's the, does the rest of the team like, so how'd it go? Like, what's it like in the clubhouse? So, I think of them. Well, you find out either that day or the next day, right? David, I remember it's really fast.

All right. So it is decision time. We kept you waiting outside this room. For the verdict, long enough, and I just need to point out here in total fairness before we proceed, that while a pitcher may not want to challenge Dan Ugla or Cody Ross, as Kevin Gregg discovered, arbitration is where you would not want to challenge David Sampson.

a financially savvy, detail-obsessed team president with a law degree who professionally haggles over contracts for a living. As he said earlier, in the room, David Sampson is wildly intimidating in his own right, which is why it is especially hilarious to me that David Sampson's official record in the room against Cody Ross and Dan Ugla is oh and two. Do you remember the moment, the scene of how you found out that you won?

It was early in the morning, and I was up at 7.30 in the morning, couldn't sleep. And I think we got the phone call somewhere around like 8.30, 9 o'clock. It was quick. It was early. And they said, we have ruled in your favor. And it was just like, you know, like an explosion. It was just like jumped up, five-year-old kid to me, just jumping on. the bed screaming and yelling all the all my agents and everybody come around and we had like eight people in the house we're all like on the bed jumping together like ah you know a topping champagne and

I was like you know it's like it was uh it was party time man it was great mine was a little different I remember I was obviously in Florida the next day and my agent called me before I actually went into spring training and he was like great news we won blah blah blah and And I'll never forget it because I remember thinking, now, wow, I'm a multimillionaire now. I just got $4.5 million. I can tell people I'm a multimillionaire. So that was kind of my thought process behind it. And look, I can't tell you for certain that Cody and Dan would be quite so eager to relive all of this with me on camera, 15 or so years later, if, in fact, they had lost to their employer in the room.

but what remains clear to me is that the guy who lost David Sampson absolutely is. So yeah, by the time you get back to spring training the next day, you already know that you won and, you know,

when you win, it's nice because you can walk around the clubhouse and like, yeah, I just kicked their ass. Yeah, we won, we won, you know? So it's kind of a, it's game. And then, you know, you see the front office in the clubhouse the next day, you walk by like, love guys.

I remember that clearly. going into the clubhouse after a loss. Yeah, what's it like for David Sampson to walk around the clubhouse having lost in the world of one-on-one business? Yeah, you just feel as though that the other players are seen a weakness and that they're going to use that

when it's their turn for arbitration. And so I didn't want to lose any of the cases at all. But I do remember making it a point to be in the clubhouse the next day to make sure that all the players saw and including Dan and Cody that win or lose, We're teammates, and we are on the same side.

And what arbitration does is it forces you to be enemies for that period of five hours. And if you do it with a plumb, you can get through it. And some players and some teams just can't get through it. Guys, they're teams that will not go to arbitration. And players know that. And you can take advantage of that. To avoid all of the awkwardness, attention in fighting. The Yankees are famous.

They don't want to go to arbitration. They feel as though that that is beneath. them to have to argue against a player. And it ends up hurting them because players take advantage of that fact and can get higher salaries. It hurts the Yankees and it hurts the other teams too because then the other teams have to negotiate on the behalf of the Yankees. And like, well, the Yankees are just handing money out. Or for the teams like the Marlins, they're trying to save every penny they possibly can.

So it creates this kind of distance between teams. too. And we never wanted the union to be able to use a win. Like Dan Ugla's win cost the industry so much, much more so than your win, Cody, just because of where Dan was in his career. Because it moved the market. A hundred percent because then everyone who wanted to compare themselves to Dan Ugla, they were comparing themselves to a 5.35 number instead of a 4.4 number.

It's really actually a big deal. And players should be thanking you, Uggs. I don't know if you get payments from them. but there are a bunch of players who came after you who got paid a hell of a lot more than they would have had you lost that case. Right. Your pre-arbitration years

were some of the best in the history of baseball. Oh, my gosh, you guys got making me blush over here. Making me blush. I'm not used to all the flowers. Thank you. Thank you. But the ultimate compliment is David Zabson saying that true clutchness

is when you're great before I got to pay you more. Well, that's, these guys know my mantra. You have to have players outperform their contracts if you're going to have a winning team. And that's true of the Yankees, the Giants, the Braves, or the Marlins. Every team needs that or you're not going to win. How much were you guys watching the faces of the arbitrators? Because there's suspense in the room. You know, what's the tension like?

The league and the union hate each other. So the representatives of the league and the representatives of the union. I don't know who you guys had. Was it Michael Wiener? I don't know what year. Weiner. It could have been Wiener, who was rest in peace. He died.

But he was very difficult in the room. And he was a great, great litigator. Beloved by the players. Well, because what he did for those players, it's just incredible. He advocated in a way that would make Donald fear blush. But what Weiner did in the room was try to get the arbitrator's attention by saying how greedy and how bad the teams are in the league. looking for arbitrators to give any sort of indication that they were listening or agreeing. My experience was I didn't really pay attention to the arbitrators because I knew they were going to

take the cases and after the oral arguments, they go into a room and just sort of decide, and there was nothing I could read from it. I don't know if you guys found differently. Well, you get coached up on it by your agents to, you know, how to act, what to do, what to not to do. And, you know, you're just super polite when you walk in the room. I don't remember if we shook hands before, if we shook hands. I knew we shook hands after with the Arbiters.

But I remember just like, you know, trying to give them that, like, you know, cute little smile that I have. Like, you know, maybe a couple, win a couple of points. Wait, winking and shooting finger guns. Seriously. That's what you're doing? Like, that's going to work? You were going to charm them? It works. Trust me.

I can't even. Cody. You, you, I loat you. I really do. I do. I do. stands in front of the arbitrators trying to woo them with his million-dollar smile and he never wore a mouthguard. That's right.

So what did going through this experience do for your guys' relationship? There was such a foundation of like friendship, business friendship, business relationship, you know, just knowing each other past baseball, knowing to those families. everything that, you know, we're having pizza in New York at four in the morning some nights. And there's no like, what are you doing? Or everybody's like trying to hide from the other. It's like we're all in there being people together. And we had built that foundation. Honestly, I mean, it didn't, I guess it could have made us a little stronger.

And we got through it because any time you go through something like that and you're still friends or whatever, it makes you strong. But we were already so strong. I think for me, the reason why there was. There was no sort of animosity or hate or I think, obviously, I have to give a ton of credit to Dave, even though I don't like to. I'm going to give him a ton of credit. He was so good about coming back on the team plane, hanging out with us, playing poker, having a couple drinks with us on the back of the plane, talking shit. It's just so much fun just to be around.

and then when it came time to do business, he was completely honest with us, whether we were good or bad. And that is exactly what you want as a player. You don't ever really get that. You don't get the personal usually, and you don't get the honesty, secondly. And that's what made him so amazing.

You know, as I'm watching David genuinely be warmed by your warmth, by your friendship. I do want to point out the aftermath of this whole thing, which is that arbitration, of course, comes and goes, they both win, David Sampson loses, but then, in the case of Dan, Ugla, Dan, you're gone, you leave the Marlins by 2011, and Cody Ross, that next season, you're out of there.

He got way too expensive. This has been Pablo Torre finds out a Metal Arc Media production. And I'll talk to you next time.