Pablo Torre Finds Out - The Secret Album That the NBA's Best Executive Doesn't Want You to Hear (PTFO Vault)

Episode Date: December 25, 2025

How did the shadowy general manager of the Oklahoma City Thunder, Sam Presti, become an urban legend? Pablo unearths a treasure buried by its own elaborate design... then dances into The Jazz Rabbit Hole with Wyatt Cenac and a special mystery guest.(This episode originally aired June 12, 2025.)• Subscribe to Pablo Torre Finds Out on YouTube for bonus holiday content• Subscribe to Pablo's newsletter for exclusive access, documents and invites Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, it's me, Pablo. So we've done, doing the math, 327 episodes of Pablo Torre finds out since we launched in September, 2023, and it is the end of 2025. And I could not be prouder of our tiny, little and extremely overworked newsroom that has created this bizarre sports news magazine show that is television, but also obviously an audio first podcast, because we've punched above our weight, I think, especially this year. But the stuff that we did before, the previous, you know, hundreds of episodes, we have some favorites that we are now concerned that you maybe have not heard yet, or maybe don't realize,

or even better when you listen to it a second time. And so during the holiday break, we're bringing you our favorites from the PTFO Vault. And we also have a newsletter, by the way, www.pablo. Where I'll be doing some stuff over the holiday break, especially, please subscribe and support our approach to independent sports journalism. But most of all, thank you. Thank you for making this show,

not just a weird experiment, but a community of people who support the kind of mission that we're on to hold to account extraordinarily rich and powerful people while also taste testing, you know, athlete-branded weed. We contain multitudes, as does our vault. Please enjoy.

I'm Pablo Torre, and this episode of Pablo Torre finds out is brought to you by Remy Martin 1738, Accord Royale. Exceptionally smooth cognac for all your game day festivities. Please drink responsibly, because today we're going to find out what this sound is. Right after this ad, do not open what's in front of you yet. Is it a very angry letter from Stephen A. Smith? It's just him being like,

how dare you not believe that I could be serious about running for president? I can say that it is not that, although I can't rule out the fact that he might say that to you at one point. All right, now I'm even more curious. The extent to which I've told you that we're doing a kind of different share-in-tell today in which it's just you. You just said, hey, come do the show. No other details.

So, yeah, batter up. Yeah, and now you got this thing in front of you. With my name on it, yeah. That's your name on. It's very expertly wrapped, as always. This is our NBA finals coverage. All right. Welcome.

But my first real question for you, Wyatt, is whether you know anything about the executive in charge of the Oklahoma City Thunder, a guy by the name of Sam Presti. of Sam Presti. What else do you know about this man? He was from the Spurs organization. Yes. And then got the job in Oklahoma City. And his first name is Sam. That's kind of how it goes, I think, in general with Sam Presti.

By the way, this year did win the NBA's executive of the year award. His team is in the NBA finals, obviously. They're playing the Pacers right now, the Oklahoma City Thunder. And he is, I think, to the point of you. not knowing much beyond what you gave me, extraordinarily private. He is very secretive. We don't know a lot about him by design. I want to look on national television and apologize to that man for any questions I've had about how exceptional he is as an executive.

I'm dead serious. I don't apologize often. But Sam Presti, on national television, I'm going to say this. I, Stephen A. Smith, owe this man an apology. I don't give a damn about the championships right now. I can't when I'm a Knicks. I can tell you this. To have 15 picks, to have that roster, to have them this young, playing at this level, this man is the man is a special executive.

And all of this means for people who just aren't familiar that they overcame the loss of the three consecutive MVPs that Sam Presti drafted in his first. three drafts. He took Kevin Durant, then Russell Westbrook, then James Hardin, in his first three seasons as the GM. And in fact, while those three MVP's left Oklahoma City for bigger markets, Sam Presti, who has had a ton of incoming interest from other bigger markets, he never did, obviously. He never left. And so what he did was he stockpiled a zillion draft picks. He traded for Shea Gilges Alexander, the season's MVP, which is impressive in its own right, 168 games. He got a city that pretty much nobody wants to willingly play for, back to the finals. And the secrecy of him, the secrecy of this organization, which has been a bit of a black box, has been this way for so long

that there is one story from Grantland years ago in which a reporter for Fox Sports said, quote, when it comes to getting a one-on-one interview, it would be easier to get access to the leader of ISIS, end quote didn't ISIS didn't they have social media for a while imagine if that's your your job is yeah I'm the social media manager for ISIS

my real passion is making music but I yeah my day job I am managing the ISIS social feeds we've got some pretty fun TikToks all of this is to say and I want you to be aware of this before we proceed any further that San Presti did not want me to do this episode

with you Wyatt specifically because of me Well, that part I can't necessarily isolate. But in general. Yeah, he doesn't want this to happen. Okay. He's also very media fluent. And I say that because one thing I can report is that a little over a decade ago,

he actually explored hiring our extremely plugged in buddy Brian Winhorst away from ESPN to work as an information guy for the Thunder. And the question of like, why would he do that? Why would he do that? It's because... Yeah, we've got to put up our wind horse fingers. Yes, that's right. The reason that San Presti considered hiring Brian Winhorse

to kick the tires on hiring him away from ESPN is that information to San Presti is currency. It is an edge, a competitive advantage. And you don't surrender that information. And so Sam Presti never speaks to the media on the record during the season. He actually, in a very careful way, does it precisely twice a year.

He speaks once in the preseason and once after the finals are over. and he just talks basketball. That is his entire allotment of public exposure. And so what I started doing, in lieu of a sit down with Sam Presti, him being the third chair with us on this episode of Shareintel. Right, yeah. We should have still just had a chair.

Instead, what I started doing was I was just grinding Sam Presti press conference archival video, looking for the thing that he seems to be trying to hide. And what I found was something interesting. Okay. Because back in 2012, which was the last year that the Thunderwin the NBA Finals, Sam Presley perhaps not coincidentally showed up at his annual preseason press conference that fall, a little more loose than usual, even a little more confident, you might say. I like, which many people in here probably don't really care about,

but I'll say it anyway because I'm interested in it. I like watching, I like music documentaries. VH1 has this series called Classic Albums Has anyone ever seen this? It's like, I'm totally hooked. And if you know where to find the actual set of them, let me know, can't find them.

So I do most of my viewing on YouTube. But they've got like all these, it basically takes you back through how the albums were made. So like Pink Floyd the Wall, Jay-Z's Reasonable Doubt, that was really good. Steely Dan Asia.

And you go back, like, the producer and you hear what they were thinking and the artists themselves, what they were thinking when they were doing the actual recording. It's just fascinating. I think it's really, really good. Sam Presti, to continue the scouting report, he did play basketball at Emerson. And that video, by the way, had 28 views on YouTube for those who want to go check it out. And part of what I learned as the 28th person to see this video is just that, his genuine and to this point generally undisclosed non-basketball passion does happen to be music.

Other thing that I thought was interesting, or for me personally, I share it with everybody since we're on this weird kick. And everybody knows I'm really open about all this stuff. And catch me on a good day. And at one point, Sam Presti's asked actually which music documentaries about which particular album. he might like to see. Pretty much anything by James Brown, I would be fascinated by, you know, just to see the, like,

just kind of how he guided the bands, because the bands were just so tight and so well put together and be fascinated by that. Kind of Blue by Miles Davis, you know, to see that history, basically, coming together. That would be awesome.

So I'll stop there, but I can go on. When he said Miles Davis kind of blue, it's interesting that he said just that album and not maybe a more expansive Miles Davis. Well, now I think it's clear probably why I invited you here. Sure, yes. Because you, beyond being a person with an actual expansive record collection, you are a bit of a musicologist. You would do listening parties, basically, on your social channels for a while. During the pandemic, sure, yeah. And so, yeah, like, I am not that guy, but what I did, in lieu of my musical knowledge,

is continue to just fall down the rabbit hole on this. I went to the dark corners of YouTube and Twitter and Reddit, trying to just, like, look into Sam Presti and his love of music. Yeah. And did you find, like, a discogs account for him? Well, you know, multiple friends of his in the NBA told me that they knew nothing about this period. But in lieu of a, yeah, a discogs account or anything like that. I found somebody who did know something about this topic.

Hi, my name is Dara Mirzai. I'm an attorney. I've been an Oklahoma city fan since the day they moved to NokeC. I was born and raised in Oklahoma. And what you should know, Wyatt, about Dara, is that he's an Oklahoma native, under superfan. And I found him while digging through Reddit. And Dara, like you, also loves music,

not unlike Sam Presti, it seems. And in fact, like you, Dara does love digging through crates. So about seven or eight years ago, I was on vacation around the Boston area, and we were visiting some music shops or whatever was left of them. And we went into one, and they had this extensive discount bin of CDs, which is full of a bunch of CDs of bands no one's ever heard of. And so I was looking through them, and all of a sudden, I stumbled across one and I thought, oh, this is funny.

This guy has the same name as the Thunder GM. I picked it up and it was obviously a really old CD. And so I figured it was some local musician from 20 years ago. And so I just bought it. I mean, I bought CDs for worse reasons before. About a week or two later, I finally put the CD in just to hear what it was like. And I thought it was going to be like an Acoust album or whatever. And all of a sudden, 20 seconds in,

guy starts talking, I'm like, I've heard this voice. Like, this is definitely Sam Presti's voice. And so Wyatt, what I'd like you to do now is please open the package in front of you. And describe it for those not watching on YouTube, please. All right. Because what you are doing, what you have in your hands, is what Dara himself was holding almost a decade ago now when he was looking very closely at this strange found object. It is a CD cover. It says Sam Presti.

The title of the album is Milk Money. There's a picture of what appears to be a young Sam Presti in shorts of the time. This feels very much, I would say, mid-90s, where the shorts are going way past the knee, because that was a time in life where men felt. they had to cover up their knees. So the black and white photo that's kind of like artistically shot, right? Like the foreground woman is out of focus.

Yeah. The text is like the sans-serif, like red. Yeah. You know, it's like a highbrow kind of aesthetic. There's someone else who could look at this and say, oh, this is the design style of like seven, like indie backpack hip-hop albums of the time. Right.

And of that time, it turns out, is Sam Presti. He was a drummer at Emerson College, and the voice that Dara heard when he was listening to this thing on loop and started Googling all these search terms, it didn't exist anywhere else on the internet. No one had posted this.

There was no audio of this music anywhere else, and there still isn't, by the way. So a couple years ago, I actually tried to put it on YouTube. I just thought it'd be fun, wasn't trying to make any money off of it. And I put online just, just Sam Presti Milk Money, nothing like Thunder GM's

hidden rap album. And I put online and got a couple of views, and then a couple days later, I kind of just started getting some messages of just some people asking me to sort of take it down. So eventually I did. Who asked you to take it down?

So I don't know who they were, but they were just complaining like, hey, should this really be out there? This was kind of something he did when he was young and I sort of started talking to them, and I don't have any proof of it, but it felt like it was someone who kind of might have known Sam or was in their camp

and just like, I'm not really sure if we want that out there. And so, you know, I was just like, okay, I don't want to mess with anyone. I'll just take it down. I don't want to cause any problems. You don't want to be at war with your favorite basketball team over the CD that you found in a crate? Yeah, and at the time, I was traveling back to Oklahoma City a lot.

I didn't want to get banned from Thunder games or anything. Yeah, I will say that band for posting Thunder GM's hidden rap album would be an incredible headline. That would, yeah. I'm looking on the back here, and this is all accurate here, the sort of back production credits. I believe so. Because it says this was put out on relativity records. Is that, like... What does this mean to you?

3-6 Mafia was on relativity? common was on relativity? It raises the question of like why Sam Presti does not want this on the internet because presumably, like, the question is is it actually so embarrassing that you would want this scrubbed? Right.

Right? And so what I can tell you is that even though San Presti did not want me to do this episode with you, I have done now significantly more than merely acquire this copy of the album Milk Money that he released. An album, by the way, that his longtime PR person, Matt Tumblesin with the Thunder, has never heard before,

I am told. What we're kind of doing in this episode, Wyatt, is making our own version of one of Sam Presti's favorite things. We're going to make the Milk Money music documentary. Also, one other thing in the production, you said the chap we were talking to, his name was Dara. Yeah. So this is written and produced by Sam Presti

under Relativity Records and Dara's Dream Publishing. It's Sam Presti's nightmare, but it seems like it's Dara's dream. So, I'd at this point, I just want to turn your attention to some of the band members involved in the production of this album because, again, Super Thunder fan, Dara randomly unearthed this thing in that discount CD bin in Boston,

and it turns out that Milk Money was more than merely, Sam Presti's musical debut. Hey, everybody. My name is Mike Tucker. I'm a professional saxophonist. I'm a Grammy-nominated saxophonist who teaches at Berkeley College of Music. I'm a professor there. And I also tour regularly with a trumpet player Arturo Sandoval.

At the risk of ruining this interview already, do you have your sax nearby, Mike? I feel like people meet a comedian and they're like, tell me a joke. And it's like, no. Or if you meet a dentist and... And it's like, hey, take a look at this tooth. No. But saxophone player, hey, do you happen to be strapped right now? Of course, I'm a saxophone player.

I'm always strapped. For the record, your Grammy-nominated saxophone is Mike Tucker. When I asked him, do you remember meeting? Sam Presti, who was again playing D3 basketball at Emerson at the time. Yeah. He did not hesitate. So the first time I met Sam was actually at a rehearsal for this recording when I was a junior in high school. But Sam, you know, he definitely made a real impression on me.

My friend Matt Moran, he was a pianist. He doesn't play anymore. But we both were playing together. And Matt went to Concord Carlisle High School, which Sam attended. Yeah. So my name is Matthew Moore. and I used to be a musician, a jazz musician, a jazz pianist. And then I became an ethnomusicologist and a professor.

And now I'm a dean at a community college in California, San Anna College. So Sam and I went to the same high school. He was a year ahead of me. And he was definitely one of the cool kids. there was a band room and we were really dorky, right? Like, we were like losers. And we hid in the band room, like, we would eat our lunch in there. And he totally would come and listen.

You know, and it wasn't fake. He really did. Like, he was like, he looked up to us as these dorky kids as like, you know, like a really, like popular basketball guy with a girlfriend and all. other stuff, you know, that we looked up to. That was like, that was the best, you know. That was the best. And I think it actually did a lot for our self-confidence that we probably never admitted to ourselves that then he asked us to be on this album. Basically, like, his concept was like he didn't want to do anything like specifically jazz or

hip-hop, but he was into both. So, like, you know, when we recorded, we recorded a couple jazz tunes, but then there were a couple like kind of like spoken word, kind of rap things in there, too. I actually just the other day when you guys contacted me for this interview, I hadn't listened to the album since we recorded it, basically. Oh, wow. Wow. Wow. But I listened back to it yesterday, and it was like probably in like 1996 or seven that we recorded

it. So it was like at a time where like hip-hop artists were collaborating with jazz musicians. Are you a basketball fan? I mean, man, like, I'm not at all. But why, this era, dare I say, might be very familiar to you. Yeah, like he was saying, there was a big connection between jazz and hip hop, whether you were talking about Tribe Call Quest, but also thinking about Guru was putting out the Jazz Mataz albums and Diggable Planets.

and so there was this thing that was happening around that time. I think that predates Cornell West's rap album, which is a thing that exists. That's right. You're talking about a noted Matrix Cinematic Universe past member, Coral West. Yeah. You might know him from The Matrix. Nothing else, just The Matrix.

But again, conscious hip-hop, right? Yes. was the brand. All of it just to say that track one of Milk Money, the introduction, sounded like this. Music transcends race, religion, sex. It transcends all of that. It's a reflection of the human heart.

Somebody can decipher that way, you know, and say what it means, you dig what it means. You'll flip. I mean, flip for real. Yeah, I understand what you're saying. Yeah. Well, yeah, that's what I tried to do is, you know, because I had all the music in my head that I wanted to do, but I had to track everybody down. You know, so the only way I knew how to do it was just get to people that were close to me that I thought could carry out, you know, and kind of expand on the things that I was thinking about.

So I went, I got Mark Panaski from way back, Dave Wolper from way back. and, you know, Jason Reese, Chris Hall, both came in and did some hornwork on it for me. I got Matt Moore and Mike Tucker just killing him. James Blackwell doing some cuts. Got Matt Binefrass stuff from Jersey with his man, Islow from Philly. It's a flow-over track that we did, you know. And it's tough because I didn't want to overstep my boundaries because I'm not a hip-hop purist. I'm not a jazz purist by any means.

But it's music that I love. And it's stuff that I wanted to do. So what are you thinking as you listen to track one of Milk Money for the first time? The first thing I'm thinking is there's a real humility that he has that I feel like I want to commend him for. As both saying, he is someone who appreciates this music, but does not consider himself an aficionado. So the other thing that stands out to me, as I was listening to it, there was that horn, that sort of horn riff that I couldn't place, but I recognized it. And I'm still having trouble recognizing it. I feel like maybe it was from a guru jazz mataz album.

I'm not 100% sure. But then there was this audio collage of things that were happening. there was a piece from the roots from Proceed. There was something from, you could hear Q-tip in there. And so the thing that was teed up earlier where I was mentioning this moment in time and the roots and tribe and digible planets and all this stuff, it is, yeah, it's he and I were drinking the same.

Nailed it. We were drinking the same water. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. This is, I know you. Sam. He could not be more clearly a fan

of a Tribe Gold Quest. Yeah. Yeah. And that got Matt thinking. I'll just say that the hip-hop influences were his. Like, he was really, I think, down that road. He was picking the genre that had less cachet

and less like marketability because instead he wanted to lean into the harder thing. Because it really was his creation. It wasn't like Mike and I were calling the shots. Because if we were calling the shots, it would have been straight ahead jazz, every single track, and probably nothing but like uptempo. And there is a really strong parallel to what he does right now. And so that whole thing about like Sam Presti on this quest to win a title in Oklahoma City, which has less cash a less marketability, again, no star players,

demand trades there, or sign there as free agents. The TV ratings also compared to the larger markets, obviously worse. If Sam Presti were in a larger market, if he were in New York, I don't know that he has the cachet to say, hey, I want to stockpile draft picks. I want to basically... So many draft picks. I want to go into the basement for a little while and tinker. And when you think about, you know, that sort of world of indie or backpack, conscious hip-hop whatever you want to call it, I feel like for so much of that, it was, okay, yeah, you're going into the basement and you're just tinkering. And I think that exact argument might be embodied in the title of what turns out to be the

album's fourth track, which is an original song, titled Nothing to Lose. Yo, here and gone, it's mother nature sad song. That's why when we alive, we got to strive and keep on. So shift in the drive now. Put your minds in it. Life's lesson chapter one slice you a section from the pie graph, a wordcraft, a mic, that's an ascent, an incline, slipped in the vinyl roof, pursued the paragraphs, the polar caps in a luge, layback, lounge core depth, nothing to lose, and it reminisce and blissin as I ship

into crews on paying dues ain't a bad aggression, or how you dress in its progression of minds that can't be learned in one session, that's why confession took the self as heart of the line, I'm trying tribulation, crime alert, panical sirens, properties of steel's iron fire, fly towards the back, life impede, crazy copper feed, blow, drench the map, ask yourself while stamina swing low on the two through the grassy dupe situation thicket and glue, snares, hollupress detest me, feel that the chemistry, ill rap, distill that extract. I should just say that, he rented a place in New Hampshire himself. He donated all of the proceeds from milk money and also this live concert that the band performed in, according to Mike Tucker, the saxophonist, he donated all of the proceeds from this concert in front of like 300, 400 people

in Boston to charity. Oh, wow. Yeah, and so the charity, all the proceeds went to the Extraordinary Needs Fund at Boston Children's Hospital. Oh, wow. It's like a pretty, just,

I find it hard to poke any holes in that part of this. Yeah. And then they produced another album together, actually, whose artwork has been floating around the NBA dark web. The album is called All Things Considered. It's a black and white photo

of Sam Presti. That's him in the far background. Yeah. Yeah. So he's like this Waldo character who is just in the back with a chessboard in front of him. And again, the metaphors kind of speak for themselves at this point. But yeah, a guy

who would become known for his decision making is sort of like trying to hide in the background of his own follow-up album. cover to milk money. And time for this band was short, by the way, ultimately. Like, everybody after these albums came out and then disappeared, everyone went off in their own directions.

Mike and Matt and Sam did not stay close. No. I mean, there really is no relationship. But it wasn't, like, out of disrespect. It was just, like, we didn't have the album. So, like, you sending me that was, like, awesome. And I was like, this is crazy. And I had no idea about his career, to be perfectly honest, because, like, I'm not like a sports person. And then, like, I get a random call.

It's like, hey, man, this is like George from, from Oklahoma City Thunder. I work with the Thunder for Sam Presti. Sam's going to be in town like next week and he'd love to like meet up with you just wondering what your schedule is. And I was like, Oklahoma City. I was like, is that a college team? I know Sam's like doing basketball. And then we reconnected. And when he came to Boston, we met up at a club that I was playing at.

He was telling me how, like, has always had a very long vision. And he'd just see, like, talented players who might not be, like, the superstar. But he could see something in them and see how he was going to develop that. He made all of his players take a financial management and awareness course. He was like, yeah, man, you know, everything's so expensive, you know, a gallon of milk is like, you know. So he's still, and he's, you know, Sam grew up in a working class family. Like, he grew up with a single mother. His mom was a nurse.

You know, he really worked hard for everything he's got. You just told a story before about Sam talking about, like, the price of milk. That's actually hilarious, yeah. And the album's name is Milk Money. But not unlike Sam Presti in the Milk Money era, I also had a vision. And I decided to not give this up. Okay. And I tumbled further and further down to Sam Presti Jazz Rabbit Hole,

listening to the eight tracks on Milk Money on like a truly disturbingly endless loop. The Jazz Rabbit Hole sounds like, that sounds like the music show I need to make. It really does. Hey, everybody, welcome to the Jazz Rabbit Hole. It's your host, White Sannack. Tonight, we're going to go down the rabbit hole of the CTI record label. That's right, you're listening to The Jazz Rabbit Hole with Widesenack. And on tonight's show, my guest Pablo Torre is going to text Thunderguard Alex Caruso at 1.15 a.m.

The night before game two of the NBA finals to ask if he knew about his boss's jazz rap albums, and he will not respond. I'm sorry to Alex Caruso, by the way. Like, again, I just couldn't. I was like, again, I'm a dog with a bone on this thing. Did you go to Alex Caruso because you thought that maybe somewhere in Alex Caruso is a, is a, is a, is a, is a 20-something white rapper? It's interesting, you went to him and, yeah, you know, not Isaiah Hartenstein. Didn't want to, you know, profile in any particular way. Sure. Just felt very important that I consult Alex Caruso specifically.

Yeah. But I didn't give up. I continued to scour the internet to find anybody, musicians particularly, that Sam Presti might actually have stayed in touch with. Because I wanted to know what happened to that guy. Yeah. Who got buried by his own design. And I spotted another name, a name that I do think, Wyatt, you would recognize as, again, a musicologist and expert in this particular era. And this mystery guest did, in fact, respond to my request for comment by agreeing to an interview.

And we're going to meet that person, Wyatt, after the break. On the jazz rabbit hole with my special guest, Pablo Torre. You're vaguely familiar with what I do, I guess? Yes. I've found out, yes. Amazing. When I cold tweeted you, I was like, I had the desperation of a man at the bottom of a rabbit hole. I don't know if you could smell that on me.

No, man, it was too early for that. I was like, damn, this 630. Yeah. I was in the bathroom when I tweeted Brantford Marcellus for the record. Hey, it works. Could you introduce yourself? My name is Brantford Marcellus. I play music. Oh, come on. That's it? Bro. I'm a musician. That's it.

Multi-Grami winner. The right thing. Saxophonist. Fight the power, public enemy in 89. None of that. None of that. Brantford. You know, it's like Sam. It's like Sam. So whether or not you realize this, there are a zillion ways that you may have already heard the legendary tenor saxophone of 64-year-old Brantford Marsalis, who, beyond all the other stuff I already mentioned, has played with Miles Davis and Sting and The Grateful Dead and the Tonight Show band, among many, many others. But I also remember Brantford, maybe most vividly, from his cameo on the Fresh Prince of Bel Air in 1994. Why don't you put that down and come sit next to me? Oh my god, 30 years ago now. That's pretty cool.

How's that, everything cool? Right. It worked? Perfect, Bramford. Good, I'm glad you like this, so look. I'm off like a dirty shirt. Hey, peace with two fingers, man. I can hide behind the couch and play. Yeah, sure, I can do that. But the reason Brantford Marsalis is friends with Sam Presti,

it turns out, goes a lot deeper than jazz and rap. I mean, first of all, it is entertainment at the end of the day. But there are people in this profession who genuinely love what they do. And then there are other people who genuinely love the attention that can be generated for them because of what it is that they do. When I'm meeting other musicians, I never lead off with how many records. I've sold. I know people who do. Hey, man, how many units did you sell? Are you serious? I mean, that's the conversation because, you know, I'm from New Orleans. I'm a country boy. But New York is a

city for very ambitious people. And so I would say, so how are you doing, bro? How are you doing? And then they would proceed to tell me every gig that they have that month. And then I would say, well, that's cool. But I didn't really ask you what you were doing. I asked you how you're doing. my passion is for the thing, not for the notoriety. And that, to be clear, is also the sort of New Yorker and podcaster that I personally would like to be. Which brings us back to basketball and jazz, these two institutions that are often compared to each other, and happen to be colliding right now. As the Oklahoma City Thunder, built by Sam Presti and the Indiana Pacers, coached by Rick Carlyle,

are quietly making their case for a very jazz-inflected championship, even more than if the actual Utah Jazz had made it. In music, there's the visible part, like the solo, people see the solo or the singer, but then there's the invisible part, and that's when the musicians have to use their skills to support a person who is in the front. Now, that is called comping, C-O-M-P-I-N-G.

Piano players do it, guitar players do it, Sometimes the horns do it, but it's like in horn parts. The horn parts support the singer that's comping. Thanks to Bruce Hornsby, I have a sometimes physical chat, but a lot of texting between Rick Carlisle and myself. It's Indiana's ball with point two to go. So after game one against the Knicks, I wrote Rick and said, and I've never seen anything like that, you know,

your kids are amazing. and he writes back and says, you really like these guys. They love comping as much as they love soloing. And I was like, this is the hippest dude on the damn planet. That's just not something you're going to see in a conversation with somebody outside of the music business. But smart cat, man.

He always has been. And so I'm finding out so much already, which is to say that the NBA finals of the year 2025 AD are also the Brantford-Marceles finals, because you have this way-in, to both sides. Yeah, it's kind of crazy. But this is the scent I've been tracking,

is that you had a connection to Sam Presti because of the research and the amount of just rabbit hole diving I've been doing. I didn't realize that you also knew Rick Carlisle. Yeah, Sam's a jazz fan, and Rick is a music fan, but Sam's a music fan, but he's a jazz fan. And we struck up conversations. And he's also talked to Lenton about jazz

in the relationship between Team Dever's. building a team is very similar to building a band. You have to identify the strengths and weaknesses of each player, and you have to set up a construct so that you challenge the musicians to eliminate their weaknesses, where the impulse will always be to double down on one strengths, because it is certainly much easier to enforce what you already know than to go to the painstaking, making reality of addressing the things you're not very adept at. And it's pretty amazing when you look at both of those teams and how they've been

constructed. We keep inventing ever since, you know, LeBron went to Miami, the big three. They don't really have a big three. No, that's the other story of this finals. Beyond the Jazz is literally this. They're teams. Correct. Because even though Shea is the MVP, he doesn't have the final.

persona where he's like, I'm the straw that stirs the drink. He's not on that vibe. The big three thing was the basic math. It was top heavy. And what you're seeing in a way that I didn't consider actually until you articulated it was the way in which jazz as a metaphor is actually even more meaningful. Because jazz is a metaphor historically in my understanding, it always been basketball is free flowing, improvisational, all of the sort of like flowery language. you're talking about something interesting, more interesting than that to me. You're talking about guys need to get a hold of their ego and supplement themselves for the greater mission.

Absolutely. And it's free-flowing as long as everybody understands what the construct is and what the rules are. In jazz, you have a basic chord. It's the same chord you hear all the time, like G7. Every song has a G7. And then there are notes above that where you can extend the harmony. And piano players are just doing that.

Why are you doing that? Because, well, man, it's in the harmony. But it's not in the song. song, bro. Harmonically, it's correct. Musically, that was some dumb shit you just played. And they tend to be pissed off when you say it because they only know how to play one way. By the way, now I get why you and Rick Harle out get along.

I get it. I know enough about Rick to know how you guys may be bonding. Man, he's smart as hell and he don't care. I love him. He's brilliant and he does not care. Those are the two scouting reports I often get on Coach Carlisle. I love it. What kind of a critic are you?

I'm the worst. They ask my colleagues. They hate when I show up. But I've learned to keep my mouth close. So they like me more now. But, you know, they used to come and say, well, what do you think? And I tell them, and they'd be like, man, you're an a h-go. Get out of here.

But if you ever went to a string quartet concert and watched, they are making constant communication with one another. Like, if you watch the NFL Combine, And they say, this guy can run the 40 in 4.2 seconds. That's amazing. And his vertical leap is 4. Can he play football? And that's the music thing.

It's like, man, can you play music? It's great that you can play the hell out of the saxophone. There's a lot of saxophone players who play saxophone better than me. I'm not trying to be humble. I know this to be true. But I play music better than him. So I win. It's part of why Sam Presti is fascinating.

Because Sam Presti, beyond his discretion and privacy, which is now very well known, I actually am curious as to your read of him as just a guy that you'd never met before. Sam loves his job, first and foremost. He doesn't love what it brings him. He loves that job. And the thing I love about him is if you didn't know what he did, you wouldn't know what he does. He wouldn't introduce it. He'd never bring it up.

That's my kind of dude right there. They were coming to New Orleans to beat up on my lowly pelicans. The play-by-play announcer Joel Myers is a buddy of mine, also a big jazz fan. And we spent a lot of time talking about records. And we were going to meet for dinner. And Sam found out and said, hey, man, I'm coming to dinner with you.

I'm like, wow. Don't you have more pressing matters to do, like what you're doing now? And he was in New Orleans and he came through. And it was great. And we had a meal and we talked about nothing about basketball. And there's nothing else to the story. What is your scouting report on Sam, the musician, as you've come to understand it? He's never come in and sit in with us, so there's no way to judge.

I mean, I just know he's a big fan of the music. I didn't even know he played drums. Perfect example. He never brought it up. He never brought it up. That's wild. Had no idea. Okay.

So I'm going to do something, Granford, because what I've been doing at the bottom of this rabbit hole, maybe you now know where this is going. I don't know yet. Okay. So I've been scouring the earth and the Internet. Oh, you found something. I just want to play you something. Yeah, man.

And again, you're you, unvarnished nightmare critic for anyone who sees you in the audience. I'm going to play you something. All right. And I'd just like us to both listen and then we can discuss. So would you mind? No, I would not mind. Sam, I'm a rip you, bro. I'm ripping you, man.

Gotta do it. So I just need to acknowledge here as a huge. human being who makes things. How absolutely terrifying what I'm about to do must be for Mike Tucker and Matt Moran and Sam Presti and the rappers in that recording studio in New Hampshire

in the mid-90s. Because asking one of the greatest living musicians to critique the long-forgotten music that you had made before you were legally allowed to rent a car is kind of a nightmare. I must admit, especially if you are an

extraordinarily private NBA executive who never wanted anybody to hear this. And especially when Brantford Marcellus's self-scouting report as a critic, once again, is this. I'm the worst. They ask me to my colleagues. They hate when I show up. But now it is time for Brantford Marcellus to find out. The album is called Milk Money.

Sam Presti is the artist. And this is the introductory track. Excellent. Music transcends race, religion, sex. It transcends all of that. It's a reflection of the human heart. I mean, that was like somebody rich. He was just firing and going all over.

So he can play. Somebody can just type of that way, you know, and play what it means, you dig what it means. You'll flip. I mean, flip for real. Yeah, I understand what you're saying. Well, yeah, that's what I tried to do is, you know, because I had all the music in my head that I wanted to do, but I had to track everybody down. You know, so the only way I knew how to do it was just get the people that were close to me that I thought could carry out, you know, and kind of expand on the things that I was thinking about.

So when I got Mark Panaski from way back, Dave Wolper from way back. What's running through your mind? Sam understands what the job is and he keeps the beat. But there's a few guys that would play that groove and add extra things, really nerdy extra things, like playing parts on upbeats or playing against, because it calls attention to them in a certain way. And all the musicians go, woo-o-you know. And every time I hear it, I'm like, why are they doing that shit?

Just played a gig, bro. James Blackwell doing some cuts. Got Matt Bindford stuff from Jersey with his men. Jersey with his man, Isloa from Philly. It's a flow over track that we did, you know. And it's tough because I didn't want to overstep my boundaries because I'm not a hip-hop purist. I'm not a jazz purist.

It's more R&B, but it has solos and it uses interesting chord structures. So it falls more in line with jazz than anything else. But the, you know, the trumpet player was clearly, has been checking out Miles because he has the muted trumpet and he's playing it the way Miles plays it. I just love the fact that Sam can keep a groove. That sounds like the 90s, the 90s vibe. I demanded to mention that you played Saxon and Fight the Power.

Oh, yeah, that was, you know, that was Spike Lee's idea. And Spike called me, we were neighbors. In Fort Green? Yeah. I think the most important part of it for him is that we were friends and neighbors before he became famous. And he said, I want you to play on this song with Public Enemy. I'm like, you kidding.

Okay, great. It's going to be great. It's going to be great. It's called Fight the Power. But it was Spike's idea. Man. I got two more tracks to play for you, if that's good. Our next track in music class with Brantford, Marcel.

It's titled 16 Baltimore Ave. So two songs, both by James Brown. One is called Cold Sweat, and the other one's called Super Bad. And it's kind of like a mashup of those two. The saxophone play was a big fan of Mike Breckers. Michael Brecker was a guy that he used to play that. Way too many notes, though, for that groove. And when I first got to New York,

I was more of an R&B player than a jazz player. And there's a scale called the pentatonic scale. And that's all I could play was the penitonic scale. And the first thing he played was a penitonic scale. And I went, oh, that's me. That's what I was there. You're at the front of the class, and this band now looks to you, and they say, Professor, what did we just do here? You say?

I would play records for them. They're more efficient ways to do what you're doing. And I would certainly play the James Brown Records. There's an instrumental record that James Brown's band did. It was the JVs. That was the name of the record, the JBs, and they had a song or pass the peas on there. It was really great.

And then there's another record that the trombonist Fred Wesley did called Fred Wesley and the Horny Horns. And they really do not how to play that style of music and still leave enough space for the music to breathe rather than flood the zone with flurries of 16th notes. But the rest of the band was very disciplined. I mean, Sam played the parts.

He didn't really try to deviate. The bass player stayed with it. The piano player, soloing, leaves a little bit to be desired, but everybody, you know, it was, man, it was good. It was good. I enjoyed it. I got one more track for you. All right. This one, I think you may be familiar with. So now I feel like a cruel scientist. Yeah, I want to know, yeah, I want to know what you think. Let me know what you think. I mean, look, so here's what I know, right? That's Coltrane. Yes. This is a standard. This is something that, as I live, as I live,

listen to it, I began to feel bad playing it for Brantford, Marsals. Wow. I'm imagining them in the box that I'm in, watching your face, and I began to just sweat a bit. So, because you're also, by the way, for people who are not familiar, of course, with what you have also done, rearranging that song, could you just fill us in? I'm demanding that you fill us in on, like, your familiarity with this song. Oh, yeah. It's a song I wouldn't. play.

Because? It's just, it's like one of the running jokes we have in the group is that bands that lean towards rock and roll or R&B

every time that they play what is considered a jazz tune. It's always in a minor key. I don't know why. But it's either Mr. P. or it's the Miles Davis song, So What? What about the drum solo in that one?

Well, the thing that was most interesting about the drum solo is that that was called, that's a thing we call trading fours. Like, because the song is a 12 bar form. I'm trying to simplify it. And it's in 4-4. So for you folks out there, if you count one, two, three, four, when you get to the next one, that's a new bar. So it's one, two, three, three, three, four, four.

And they were playing four-bar phrases. Because the saxophone play would play for four bars, and then Sam would play for four bars. Now, a lot of times when drummers would play that, they always make this big sample crash on the first beat that the saxophone starts to play again. I thought it was really cool that he didn't. Because the other way is just super cliche to me.

And it was really cool that he didn't. He just went, he was going to swing. And it was like, oh, shit. That's kind of cool. That was a great idea. I mean, Sam, go ahead, man. Way to think it through.

It's good, man. I know he's going to be mad at you for playing this for me. It's cool, man. I'm a cop the record. Milk money? I might be the only supplier on the internet at this point, but I'm going to get you to that copy, man. Bro, I know you now, so you got to hook me up.

It's cool. But there is one more aspect near the end here that Brannford brought up that I do think is worth mentioning. because a story about an executive's secret former life as a drummer at a liberal arts college also relates to something that Branford and his late father Ellis, a musician who most inspired Branford and his brother, Wynton, would talk about a lot. And it feels especially relevant today. The essential destruction of the,

liberal arts college in the United States was one of the worst things that he felt could ever happen because in the 1950s there was no such thing as pre-law. So a lot of these lawyers were taking theater and reading Shakespeare. Yes. And it brings a whole different side out of you. And but now it's like, you know, pre-law, law, law, pre-med, med. And then they say, oh, doctors don't really communicate like they're like, like they used to. Well, they don't learn the stuff that they used to.

They don't understand the value of poetry and the value of a liberal arts education. And the liberal arts colleges are dwindling everywhere. The fact that Sam is an executive and he also had this music career where he was playing music, it's going to make him a better executive. Because everything you learn you carry with you.

All of which reminds me of something. Something else that Dara, the Thunder superfan, the crate digger who found, this physical used CD and enable this entire episode had found out. We always say like impress who we trust, right? He makes a trade, he makes a draft. We just sort of blindly believe it, even if going into the death, we had no idea who this guy was.

But on the same sense, like, we don't know who he is as a person. Everything he says, it sounds like he's rehearsed it over 20 times. I like this album because it's sort of him personally to certain sense. Like, yes. I hate to say this, but I think, like, Daryl Morey, if this was him, he'd be like, should I re-release a deluxe edition or something? You know what I mean? This is some guy that he's been the only constant in this organization,

but I don't think I've ever really seen him laugh at anything, you know? Yeah, and to be honest, I have no idea how the NBA's executive of the year, one of the best executives in all of sports, is gonna react once he hears this episode that he did not want to exist. And I have no idea about that because Sam Presti, as was entirely expected, did decline to comment,

which brings our music documentary here back to how we started. What'd you find out today, Pablo? I would like to tell someone that I know in real life, hey, do you have that sax on you? And to immediately be serenaded by. All right. Well, you asked for it.

Poo-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-poh. That is so much better than I thought it would be. We've turned the tables on Sam Presti now. We have scouted the young Sam Presti. Oh, yeah. Thank you. Thank you for doing that, Bramford. I'll be not mad at me. I hope he's not mad at you

But it was a pleasure to do it was a pleasure to listen to the music and talk about my man So that's cool Yeah another line in your bio is that you're now officially a Pablo Torre finds out correspondent I see that I'd drag about me That's the thing I'd I'd name drop that shit Everything else not but I'd name drop that You've been listening to Pablo Torre finds out a