Pablo Torre Finds Out - The Teenage Athlete at the Heart of America's Culture War... Isn't Very Good at Sports

Episode Date: November 24, 2023

Politicians don't want transgender people dominating girls' sports. But Ember Zelch just wanted to play softball, and nobody else seemed to mind. She was, after all, the ONLY trans girl officially even PLAYING girls' varsity sports in her ENTIRE state. Pablo travels to Ohio to learn why Ember fought for her right to love sports anyway. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

So I bet that you're having some uncomfortable conversations with people that you only kind of like. Maybe it's at your family table. Maybe it's at the local barn, your high school that you visit around this time a year annually. Whatever it is, I have an episode for you that will empower you to be a little more interesting about some of the oldest saws in problematic family discussion. So that's this episode. Did I give you my feel, by the way, yesterday about rating and reviewing and how that's really. important and how that's, you know, something I now need to beg you for. That's how important it is.

I did? Oh, okay. Well, I just did it again. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Please enjoy. Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out. I am Pablo Torre, and today we're going to find out what this sound is. The only thing that makes sense for what's going on in this country is that demons are influencing people, allowing their bodies to be possessed to run satanic. agendas.

Right after this ad. You're listening to Draft King's Network. So Cortez, I want people to understand that I walk into the office proud to host Pablo Torre finds out because we've built a newsroom. A newsroom? Yes. A newsroom.

Do you understand a newsroom to me has to have like a piece of print newspaper and ink on your fingers and stuff like that? That's not a newsroom. There is residue on our fingers, not ink, admittedly. go wash your hands. The point I'm trying to make is that I walk into this newsroom trying to figure out every day,

like what are we supposed to fucking cover? And I just want to ask you, for the sake of rigor, of journalistic introspection, what do you think the biggest story, Cortez, is in sports right now? To me, the biggest story is Dionne Sanders, double overtime when, obviously. Prime time. That's a good impression. of an impression. Of an impression. Yeah, exactly.

Of an impression. Yeah. And right up there with Dion, arguably even ahead of Dion, to me personally, since you asked me, is Aaron Rogers telling you Pat McAfee that how he plans to heal his injury

is to listen to dolphins having sex with each other and that would help him with the mating process. I wish that this was something that we had conceived as like a joke, but no, that's, yeah, that's... I'm healed. That is what the New York gets are counting on.

Fully torn ACL. Well, dolphin sex. Right. All of these are the stories we might consider. Sure. But for me, if you listen to the news right now, okay, actual alleged journalistic outlets, if you listen to the people running for president, the biggest story in sports, the most urgent story, most pressing thing they want to talk about that has to do with sports in any way

is not Dion or Mike McDaniel or Aaron Rogers's libido. It's not any of that. It's this. The idea that we have biological boys playing in girls' sports, it is the women's issue of our time. I'd say it's more. It's not just cheating. It's dangerous and it's insane.

Transgenderism is a lie. You don't get to choose your own gender. The vast majority of Americans actually agree with that point that your gender is assigned at birth. It's the way that God made you. You take out a loan, you pay it back. You commit a violent crime. You go to jail.

And if God made you a man, You play sports against men. Some women are being badly injured by the wind burn that's caused by the man going so much faster. The wind is blowing. There are so many more clips like that. But I also want to say right up top here, I get why some people listening are already just exhausted

by this episode and by the fact that I'm trying to, I'm trying to Trojan horse trans athletes into this show. And I say that because these clips are everywhere, right? I mean, this is, trans athletes are a front in this forever culture war that is endless. And people all the time on Twitter, on cable news, at home, maybe at your awkward Thanksgiving dinner, people are arguing, complaining about both the merits of the arguments for and against, but also just we all hate each other because people seem dug in. And then they refuse to admit some stuff that, yeah, that seems to be settled science. I mean, when I, you know, as a long time, like Levitard show listener, what I think about when I hear you say all that is like the reaction on that show, anytime Levitard talks about other,

you know, they had a transgender politician on not that long ago, and Zoe Zephyr, very benign what they said, and the reaction was poisonous and infuriating. And so I just want to be very open here, extremely open here, as a quote unquote, liberal, because there is one extremely broadly persuasive argument that all of these anti-trans, talking heads, legislators, are making against trans women, against trans girls, of course, in specific, because the most famous trans woman right now, Cortez, especially, let's even put it in sports, the most famous trans female athlete right now is who? I mean, in sports is no doubt Leah Thomas, you know, the famous.

is trans female swimmer from Penn. Yes. Yes, really good at swimming, which is the problem, right? The problem is that Leah Thomas, yes, Leah Thomas is a case study, this cudgel that people are beating this issue over the head with because the argument goes, the persuasive argument goes, look at how all of these trans women, all of these trans girls have these undeniable, scientifically validated physical advantages over, quote unquote, biological women, which is what they call them, right?

So these trans girls, categorically, the argument goes, are better and stronger and faster than biological girls at sports. And so what does this mean? It means that your daughters, America's daughters, okay? They're all losing scholarships and opportunities and trophies to these trans girls who have this enormous unfair competitive advantage. And it's the logic, it's the very logic behind why the U.S. House of Representatives in April passed a federal bill. that mirrors this legislation that has now been successfully passed by 23 states, all of which are banning trans girls from playing girls' sports. 23's a lot.

Yes, about half of the country, right? And even more states, like Ohio, for instance, are trying to enact anti-trans bills as we speak in June. In June, Ohio's House of Representatives approved a bill that would ban trans girls from playing in girls' sports as early as kindergarten. Kindergarten? banning trans girls as young as kindergarten through college.

But there is one part of the story that I think I want to establish with you because the part that people don't like to talk about in all of these arguments is just how many trans people in general there actually are in America. Right? Because the consistent message here is that this threat is everywhere. It's pervasive. It's enormous. And so one study to that point, one study found that the average American

now believes that 21% of American adults identify as trans. 21% of American adults are trans people is what the average American presumes. Do you know Cortez with the real percentages? I mean, given polling errors and stuff, maybe half that, 10%, something like that? 0.5%. Okay. 0.5% according to UCLA's Williams Institute. The actual answer is 0.5% of American adults are trans.

And that's a fraction, a fraction of 1%. And so I bring this up just to say that the number of trans kids, the number of trans girls, actually playing sports in America, that number of kids who are allegedly taking away scholarships and opportunities and trophies, that number is obviously even tinier than that. And so there was one Associated Press story in 2021 that I cannot stop thinking about because it surveyed two dozen lawmakers that were sponsoring these bills. And they found that in almost every case, in almost every case what the reporting says, verbatim. They could not cite a single trans female athlete in real life, in their own state or region, whatever they represented, that had caused the problem they were allegedly solving.

That's insane. So in one state in particular, I want to focus again on Ohio here. In Ohio, there was exactly one trans girl playing varsity sports at the time that they tried to pass these anti-trans bills. And this trans girl was a catcher on her high school softball team. named Ember Zelch. Now, Leah Thomas I had heard of. Ember Zelch I had never, ever heard of.

Had you? No, but that's a name I'm sure not to forget because it's an awesome name. It is pretty badass, actually. Yes, yes. So the truth behind Ember Zelch, the name, the person, what's behind there? That is why I decided to go on a scouting trip

to Northeast Ohio. Because I wanted to find Ember Zelch, the trans girl who is too good at softball, Right? So good, in fact, at softball that the state of Ohio tried to ban her from doing it, from playing this sport. And I needed to find out how good Ember Zelch actually is. I've been told that you're amazing at softball, at all sports, really. I mean, truly incredible. I mean, just look at all my trophies right here. I want to be clear about what is around here.

Yeah. Because as much as cable news is telling me that you're one of the great softball players of all time, the only thing that's even metal here is the foil that's all over your bed. And I don't know why there's foil on your bed. My cats have a bad habit of peeing on my bed. So that foil is to prevent them from peeing on my bed. So the foil is an anti-cat measure? Yes.

Okay, so I should probably just say very clearly here that before we sat down for our actual interview, Ember Zelch agreed to show me something in the interests of total journalistic transparency here. Her room. Where are the trophies, though? Like, where are the medals? Where are the plaques? Can we get a shot of this? That is. That is my participation trophy?

What's this? There's like a purple... That's snargle. Snargle. There's a purple snargle. What is snargle for people who can't see snargle? I don't know how to describe snargo. It's almost like an alligator or a crocodile, but purple. Dragon. I think more dragonhead.

You have a book about bonsai trees. You have some novels. You have an animal. Yes. This is Marble. He is a Chahua gecko. And he was just asleep. He's not now. Sorry, Marble.

for dragging you into my invasion. Would you like to hold this one? You can hold this one. I'll try. He won't really fall off. Okay. Oh, right, because of the whole gecko thing. So. Marble, can trust me.

Wow. If you feel that, he's got those toe pads. It's super, super, like, soft. Very soft. Can marble, like, hang from your glasses? He can. Ember has glasses. Yes.

I can point that out. Very nerdy, moss green glasses. I'm getting, as Ember is sitting here in her computer chair with her getco wrapped around her glasses, I'm getting big jock vibes. Oh yeah. Just like huge alpha, like dominant energy from you. This is not the room of the person I was promised. I thought that this would be, yeah, this would be a little different.

The back of your softball card, what kind of stats are on the back of that, would you say? And by the way, that sound is ember spritzing the interior of the gecko terrarium. Sorry, forgot about the microphones. Yeah, just giving him some water. He's not very smart, so I need to spray his entire enclosure. I think Marvel is smart. I'm just saying that.

You haven't seen him try and eat. I feed him with a spoon. So what you're telling me is that the person at the center of Ohio's legislation banning trans girls from playing sports because they're too dominant. Spends most of her time feeding a gecko. I mean, that's probably what should be on the back of my softball. Just feed soup to gecko with spoon.

And so I decided to fact check all of this with Ember's mom, Minna Zelch, who is blunt. How would you describe Ember's athletic prowess? There really isn't much. How about any home runs? She's never had a home run in her life. So, growing up, I was a weird kid. What were you into? Animals.

And in particular, I really, really liked lizards and snakes. What is really, really liking lizards and snakes entail? I think we had possibly 32 animals at the peak. That's, Ember, that is so many more fucking animals than I would have guessed when you said I really liked lizards and snakes. Like the greatest baseball players of all time, you had 32 animals and had a love of reptiles and snakes. Yes, and I did shows with them.

I did educational shows as a job. I started at 10 years old in my best friend's garage because it was first birthday, and I would just teach people about these animals and let them hold them. So you're having like a reptile show. Where are the reptiles right now? Right below us. In the basement. Yes.

Do you want me to go get one? I can totally go get one for you right now. Let's do that? Yeah, I'll be right back. Holy shit. All right. So these... So I want to describe for the people who are just listening to this and not watching on our YouTube channel what you've brought me.

Yeah, so these are leopard boas. They are a dwarf species with a color mutation. So they only top out about six feet. Only? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, if they weren't a door species, they could get up to 15 feet. What's the name of this one? That's crawling at your microphone? Yeah, that's Violet.

My daughter's name is Violet. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah, that's Violet. I'm never going to think of my daughter's name in the same way ever again. She is actually really sweet. If you want, you can hold her. I don't know about that. That's fine. Yeah.

So. And the other one, this one's K-Pock. He's actually shedding right now. So explain the symbolism here because the snakes that you have wrapped around you as we're talking here, they are not as scary as I had presumed when you said, I'm going to go get these two

fucking snakes. Yeah. Yeah. So that's part of why I love them so much is because they are misunderstood.

They are... People expect them to be scary or particularly dangerous. These things are really only dangerous to my birds and my cats or

like an infant, but there's no infants here. Where are you going? I think he's trying to adjust the lighting. Let's not do that. Give me your Dungeons and Dragons credentials. I'm currently in a D&D campaign with my little brother at church.

I've made at least four different characters, not including the ones that I've helped people make. And then I've been involved with a D&D club at my school. So total jock energy. Give me your other nerd credentials. Other nerd credentials. I mean, not that I'm in doubt at this point on account of the snake handling.

I really love mythology. Yeah, do you have a favorite myth? Maybe Icarus, just because I relate. Have you ever flown too close to the sun? Well, I guess you could consider just wanting to play sports. That might have done it. just because all the political stuff that is happening. They're trying to melt some wings.

Yeah. Ember, when did you come out as trans? The first time I came out as trans, it was in fifth grade. I told a friend of mine at the time, I think I'm a girl. I didn't have any other words to explain what I was feeling. but she told me you'll always be a boy to me. And that ended up pushing me in the closet for two more years. And I came out to my family as trans halfway through seventh grade.

As a parent, I don't think it's the kind of thing you ever forget. She just said, you know, I think I'm transgender. And I just remember kind of going quiet and be like, uh, okay. And it was extremely difficult. I know my husband and I both spent many, many, you know, times just kind of looking at each other with this like blank stare of what do we do? What happens now? And, you know, we hugged her.

We love you, we said. And then going to bed at night and just crying yourself to sleep. because not because you didn't want a trans kid, but because we knew how much harder would make her life. When did it occur to you that you now out as a trans girl needed to play these games again, that you needed to play sports? I wanted to start playing in eighth grade,

and it wasn't an option because I had already started to go through puberty. And there was, policies in place through OHSAA. Which stands for... Ohio High School Athletic Association. Their policies stated that I had to either... I had to be on hormone therapy for at least a year

and or I had to have a doctor saying that I didn't have a biological advantage based on sex. Like a physiological edge. Yeah. That was the rule. And what does that mean? What does it mean to be on hormones for a year? Yeah, it means, well, in my situation, because it's different for every trans person based on what they need medically or what their doctor prescribes.

For me, it meant a testosterone suppressant and taking esterile for a year. And how do you take that? I take that just via pills. And how often do you have to take these pills or be on this regimen? I have to take them twice a day and it's like a whole, like nine pills. That's a lot of pills ever. That's not the only thing I'm taking, but like altogether the concoction is nine pills in the morning, nine pills at night. The point being that in order to play sports, it's not like you show up one day and say,

no, hey guys, I'm different now, and then they put you on the girls' team. Which is what a lot of people think. If you gave Brock Lesnar a sex change and put him in a dress, he's going to run through every woman that's ever lived in the history of women. That's what a lot of politicians have actually told me that they're afraid of and that that's what they're trying to protect. And I'm like, great, that's not happening.

Like, that's just not a thing. There's a commitment and investment of real time. Yes. That is, it seems like a hell of a long way if you're doing this as a stunt. And the important thing to realize is that people don't go on this stuff just so that they're able to play sports. They go on this stuff so that they fit their identity, so that they can feel like themselves. If they get to play sports because of it, that's just an added bonus. So you've been taking these pills undergoing hormone therapy for a year leading into sophomore year?

Yes. In order to play sports. And you have to prove as a consequence that you don't have the biological, physical, physiological advantage. Exactly. How do you prove that? Great question. They originally were asking for like muscle mass, how much your muscle. your bone density, all this stuff.

And my doctors were just like, I don't know how to do that. I ended up being the one who was mostly interacting, going back and forth between the doctor and the compliance director at the state, well, the doctor doesn't know what you want. What do you want? The doctors wrote them, wrote the OHSAA, and we're just like, hey, what, what do we do? A lot of doctors don't know what to do.

do because there's so few trans kids in sports and trans people in sports. She had to submit all the blood work showing her testosterone levels, showing her estrogen levels, showing her height and her weight and how long she'd been at those levels and all her growth charts. It was incredibly invasive and ultimately it just creates the feeling of just like they don't view me as a real girl. per se. But the point being, taking all of that into consideration, that this is how badly you wanted to do this.

This is how badly you wanted to be on this team playing this game, is that you subjected yourself willingly to a regimen of rules that as invasive as they were, you also understood if this is the price that I need to pay to be on the team that I actually identify with, that I want to be on, that I deserve to be on. I will do this.

Yeah. And so when you finally got approval, what was that like? Do you remember that? What was that moment? Yeah. So that would have been sophomore year. I was in my room totally doing homework. As one does?

Yes, absolutely, when they're supposed to be doing. Not playing with upwards of 30 lizards or snakes. No, no, no, no, no. My mom comes into my room and she's crying. and I asked her what was wrong and she told me that I had been approved to play. So I started crying. And I showed her the email

and we were both just bawling, just tears all down our faces. And, you know, I think it will always be one of the most affirming moments of her life, you know, this feeling of I can be one of the girls. And my brother walks in the room and he goes, what happened?

And did someone die? I just look up at him and I say, the state agrees that I'm a girl through sobs and just this giant grin. When you think back on your first foray into playing on the girls team, was there a lot of drama? No. Not at all. The only drama was from the state.

Your teammates. A lot of these conversations are about you're taking spots away from the real girls. Yeah. That's what the news is blaring. Yeah. And in reality, what happened in terms of their reaction, your teammates' reaction to you joining? When I came out to my most recent summer team this past summer, everyone got into a circle

and we all went around your name, your grade, and a fun fact about you. And I was like, I am for Zelch. I am upcoming freshman in college and I am trans. Half of the facial expressions

just like, okay, I'm gay. I didn't use that as my fun fact. What do you? They were just like, okay, show off. Like, it was clearly like it was weird, and they thought it was weird. Not that I was trans, but that I told them I was trans, like it was a big deal. So they were not worried about job security when it came to their playing time.

That was not their response. Not even slightly. So if the kids on the team didn't, they almost didn't care, weren't impressed by the fact that you were trans. Who did not want you to play softball? Politicians. Exclusively politicians and mostly older male politicians. What did they do? They are doing their damn best to make it illegal for me to play.

There's a nationwide effort to save women's sports. Conservative lawmakers have introduced bills in 30 states that would prevent transgender athletes from participating in girl sports. And the governor of Arkansas just signed a bill into law there. So actually it was two months after I was approved to play. Two months after I was in my mom's crying tears of joy because the state of Ohio said that I was a girl. I could play with the girls, the Ohio State House introduced a bill that would make it illegal for me to play. And that bill, by the way, first introduced in 2021, was named the Save Women's Sports Act. The Save Women's Sports Act is a fairness issue for women to be able to achieve their dreams and athletics in our state.

And it's crucial to preserving women's rights and the integrity of women's and girls sports. Which meant banning trans girls from joining girls from joining girls. girls' teams specifically. And that felt how personal to you? At the time, it didn't feel extremely personal. It was just like, ah, fear, which made sense. I was aware that people are afraid of what they don't understand, like the same exact thing with my animals.

Like, you don't understand it, so it's scary. And I get that to some extent. It's a defense mechanism. It's for safety. But then I found out that at the time, I was the only high school trans female athlete in Ohio that had been approved to play. The only one.

The population they were concerned about, the people who they saw as threatening sports and their girls, Yes. Was literally just you? Yes. Do you think that they knew that you were the only one? Do you think they know your name? At the time, they didn't.

They probably didn't even know I was the only one. But when I started advocacy work, I made sure that they knew. That was an immediate thing that I would tell politicians when I had one-on-one conversations, I'd be like, so we're very clear, this is a law directed exclusively at me right now. Which is a remarkable thing in terms of the presumed size of this population. Like, the threat is everywhere. They're coming for your girls.

They're coming for their scholarships. They're coming for all of this stuff. And the entire state, again, was organized against one. Trans girl. Mm-hmm. Which was you? Yes. What was it like to go to the State House and speak up and actually challenge authority in person?

It's, I've had to do it multiple times, and every time it's not enjoyable. It's not exciting. It's not, oh, wow, this is... Not the movie version that I would imagine? It's demeaning and it's horrifically painful to have to look up at people who are in these big chairs above you and essentially plead to them to not take away your rights. Thank you for the opportunity to testify in opposition to House Bill 6 that would ban transgender girls from playing sports. My name is Ember and I use she they pronouns. Being a trans athlete isn't easy.

People I have never met have suggested that I became trans just to do better in sports. Why would I become trans in order to have to fight every day for my right just to be perceived as who I am? I justifying my existence to strangers is not something I enjoy. Last time I testified against a transathlet ban, the committee was not listening. They were actively talking to each other and whispering to each other during my testimony. I do not care anymore about educating them because it's clear that they don't care to listen. It's clear that they don't want to be educated. don't want to be knowledgeable.

They just want to have power. Give me a sense of like the people on the other side of the issue here. How would you characterize what their arguments were? There are some people who do really think that their stance is to protect girls. There are some people that truly believe that. But I also know that the vast majority of people, if they have done any research, realize that that's not what's happening. Realize that it's mostly just politicians that are trying to incite fear. Those fears, it was somewhat startling for me to go through some of the tape of these congressional hearings in Ohio and to see that it,

often went into the realm of, I'll put it generously, the metaphysical. Like, this was stuff about spiritual concerns, religious concerns. Yeah. Concerns about demons, literally. Yes. That is actually something that someone said.

Yeah, I want to play that video for you. Oh, that's fun. We call him Demon Dude? Well, demon dude, there's a thing about demon dude that is important because you're not exaggerating. No. The only thing that makes sense for what's going on in this country is that demons are influencing people, allowing their bodies to be possessed to run satanic agendas. People that are possessed by demons don't get to make demonic agendas and demonic doctrines that affect our people and our children and our laws in our country.

Thank you very much. for being with us and sharing your testimony today. That's pretty literal. Yeah. No, he fully believes that there are demons possessing people. And so I guess, journalistically, I have to ask if you, Ember Zelch, are possessed by a demon. I mean, if I am, I am not aware of it.

That's what a person possessed by a demon would say. Yeah, yeah. I'm a pretty empathetic demon if I'm a demon. I feel like you've established on the record that you are, if anything, a nymph who loves playing games. Yeah. What have been some of the justifications for why these representatives are so impassioned and so worried about girls like Ember?

So they will flat out lie. We had a situation just at one of our hearings a couple of months. ago. Representative Williams. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So first, I've met with the Department of Education. There's been countless complaints filed in regards to the trans policy. The department has confirmed that. So a friend of mine who actually came to the State House with us and ended up testifying at the athlete ban hearings did a deep dive into the topic when one of the representatives said that there were countless complaints against trans athletes, and she found that there were zero.

She had multiple email exchanges with the Athletic Association, and they said, no, there have been zero complaints against transgender athletes in this state. And I should also note that we cross-checked this here at Pablo Torre finds out. We looked into those multiple email exchanges, and, yeah, the Ohio High School Athletic Association says, in writing that there have been zero filed complaints against any trans students who've been approved to compete to date. Their compliance director actually counted. And so we then reached out to Representative Josh Williams to tape an interview because zero complaints filed is the opposite of countless complaints filed, as he said. And also, I wanted to know what he really knew about the experiences of the trans girls.

he represents in his own state. But Representative Williams declined. And so here's a bit more of what Ember Zelch, backup catcher on her high school softball team, tried to tell the government herself in her testimony. Playing on a girl's team has been an incredible experience for me. I have made so many friends and improved so much, despite starting so late.

My teammates treat me just like anyone else in the day. team. So do my coaches. My teams are part of my family. We are all so different and from and come from different cliques. But when we are together on the field, we are there for each other no matter what. Every kid should be lucky enough to have that experience. But when it comes to saving women's sports, like actually supporting women's sports, Ember did have something else that she wanted to say. What was your experience like? on the girls' team? What did the facilities look like? Almost every field was crap,

for lack of better description. They were sh-h-they were falling apart. Half the time, they were flooded, muddy, not up-kept at all. My team's field is the elementary school field. Our baseball teams, varsity, and, junior varsity had two fields, both of them at the high school. They could simply walk outside for a game or a practice. My team had to get on a bus to go to our field.

Not for a way game, to our home game. Wait, wait, wait. So you needed to take a bus to the shi field. Yes. in order to do the most basic thing. Yes. And did you ever hear any of these politicians advocate? Not ones. It just sounds like a giant cluster.

That there is just an endless stream. It sounds like a legislation that you are being dared to fight. And I wonder if you've considered leaving for that reason. Yeah, I am leaving. I am leaving for college. I received a $10,000 scholarship that's open for any school in Ohio. And I am leaving that. So you're leaving Ohio finally.

And you're doing it because you feel like your well-being. Your fundamental well-being is at risk if you remain. But what happens to your athletic aspirations here? You fought for this, and so what happens next for you with softball? I have really had the amazing opportunity to be able to play in college. That is something that I'm able to do, just because of all my incredible abilities that, you know, I've, this is a secret. My parents don't even know. I actually got a scholarship to this school because of my athletic prowess that no one's ever seen.

Yeah. Yeah. They're really good scouts. Yes. They sent some scouts for this Division III school. And they saw, oh, that girl on the bench, the one that's keeping the seat warm with the blanket around her because it's cold. And she's not keeping warm because she's not playing. We want her.

On our team, yes, that one. Yeah. With the colorful hair. Yeah. But for real, though, you want to keep playing. Yes. Despite all of it, Ember, this sounds crazy to me. On just some basic level, you've sat down here with me,

and you've told me all of the ways in which this has been this mythological test of your fortitude. And you're like, I'm going to keep at it. I want to keep doing this. Why? the field, I can put away all the bullshit, all this legislation and scholarships, all these thoughts constantly racing around in my head, all this struggle. I can set that aside on the field. And I can join this group of people who understand my desire to just want to be part of a

team to just want to be in this group, to just be ourselves, and to forget about all the other bullshit for just an hour and a half. That's why it's worth it to me to keep going through all these tests, to keep dealing with the ideology that I am some monster in order to still just be able to be myself. and forget about life for just a little bit. I should confess here, Ember, that I'm not very good at sports either. Really? Well, yes, shockingly.

I know. For the audience, I'm very jacked. I'm the John Cena of Metal Arc Media. But what you just said was beautiful because it is why I've always loved sports too. It's the idea that I'm not trying to be the best. I'm trying to have a good time with my friends. And I feel like when I cover sports, the reason I've loved, one of the reasons I've loved talking to you is because the big picture of sports

is so much more vast than the elite athletes. And the LeBron Jameses, the Olympians, it's about people who will never play beyond, at best, D3 softball, just like being about this life, seeing the value in it. And it occurs to me that you are through this, whole odyssey, you're kind of a star. Like you're, but you've been a voice, a face for this, for your community, not just your team, but also for for trans girls. And what does it feel like to be a public person, having done interviews, been again talking to Congress for something

that's not actually about, you know, your back of the baseball card stats? I hate it. I'm not even joking. I've made a lot of sarcastic jokes throughout this whole thing. I truly hate it. I don't want to be the center of focus. I don't want to have to testify.

It sucks. I don't want that. I hate interviews. I'm an introvert. I would much rather be hanging out with my partner. I'd much rather be playing a game. I'd much rather be watching some obscure movie or show. I'd much rather be doing any of those things.

I'd much rather be reading a book, and I'm dyslexic. It does occur to me, too, that, like, so much of what you're describing is fundamentally the desire to blend in, to not be spot lit. and that is also another way in which trans athletes have, trans people in general have been presented, is they want to put everything in your face. Yeah. They want to change the things you love, ruin them, because they can't stop being loud and proud in front of you,

and you are telling me that you want as many Twitter followers as you have home runs. Hopefully there'll be at least one Twitter follower next year then. I want at least one home run. But, yeah, I don't want attention. I don't want any of this. I don't want to be the weird kid that has a camera on their face. Talking to you is honestly the best interview I've had, but it still sucks.

I feel you. Ember, thank you very much for taking the time to do something that, admittedly sucks, but I think means a lot to a lot of people. I'd say, of course, but... So as I sit down in front of my keyboard and reflect on what it is that I found out today, I am blown away by how obvious it is now

that the single most exaggerated campaign issue, the single most exaggerated fear in American life is the fear of trans girls invading women's sports, something that cable news and politicians cannot stop selling us as this huge pressing concern. And I do get that there are concerns here. I do get that there are real competitive advantages

to going through male puberty. Like height, for instance, can never be undone. We should be honest about these things. But I also believe that the biggest advantage there is testosterone, and that can and should be regulated by rule. I believe that this is a reasonable policy if done reasonably. But what I am blown away by is just how clear it is that inside that tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny population of trans kids, population that statistically you will never even meet. They are not

all Leah Thomas. They are not. They're not coming for your scholarships and opportunities and trophies. They're benchwarmers too. They're teenagers who just want to be on a team

where they belong. They are ember zelch, in so many words. Just not that good at sports. And just like us, human beings who deserve the right to be completely mediocre at the thing they love. And that's why today, in the end, what I found out is so clear to me.

And this is a regret that I have. Thinking back on how my interview with Ember went, hearing about all of the metaphors and symbols that we described. disgust. What I found out is that I really should have been brave enough to hold that boa constrictor. This has been Pablo Torre finds out, a metal arc media production. And I'll talk to you next time.