Pablo Torre Finds Out - We Visited Death Row for the Super Bowl. You Can Help Save This Fan's Life.

Episode Date: February 5, 2026

A wrongfully convicted football fan is running out of time. So Pablo travels from the free world to Texas, to sit with Charles Flores for the one hour a day when he's not in solitary confinement. To learn what it feels like to watch the NFL through the bars of a super-max prison. To understand why Charles continues to await execution, a decade after the real killer went free. And to find out how the road might go on, before it's too late.• Sign the petition to stop the execution of Charles Flores• Previously on PTFO: Watching the Dallas Cowboys on Death Row"The Road Goes On Forever" written and performed by Robert Earl Keen, with permissions from Songs of Universal, Inc., and Keen Productions.(Pablo Torre Finds Out is independently produced by Meadowlark Media and distributed by The Athletic. The views, research and reporting expressed in this episode are solely those of Pablo Torre Finds Out and do not reflect the work or editorial input of The Athletic or its journalists.) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out. I am Pablo Torre, and today we're going to find out what this sound is. Sooner or later, the truth's going to come out. And I'm going to have that opportunity to see life after this. Right after this ad. Back when I was a magazine reporter, and this was many years before I locked myself inside the PTFO studio in New York City, I loved spending time on the road. just driving around this country.

But one place I had never been before is a town in East Texas called Livingston. Livingston is the home of the Polonsky Unit, a Supermex prison that is otherwise known as Texas's death row. You may recall that we sent PTFO correspondent Dave Fleming to this place back in October 24 because we wanted Dave to find out

about the apparently enormous role that football fandom plays for the inmates here. The men whose last words before state execution sometimes even wind up being shoutouts to their favorite NFL team, which, in a sense, says everything. But today, more than a year later, and ahead of Super Bowl Sunday, it is my turn to meet our guide to a fandom that is truly unlike any other. A remarkable inmate by the name of Charles Don Flores.

a person you can hear right now as he's walking down the hall to the Polensky Unit's visitation room, this surreal place with a painting of cookie monster on the wall behind me, an Erie's Star Wars mural across the way, and a thick paint of glass which forever separates the inmates from their kids,

their family, their visitors. Charles Flores spends almost all of his life at the Polonsky Unit in solitary confinement. How you doing, brother? Charles. But now, as we'll explain, he is running out of time,

even though he never should have ended up in here at all. It occurs to me that you spend 23 hours a day in solitary. Yeah. And so you have an hour with me and I am really grateful that you're taking the time. Thanks so much for caring and for coming down here and for taking interest in my situation. And, you know, because it's not just about me,

it's about all the guys down here, right? I'm just one person out of, you know, almost 200 people down here. But the other reason I'm here, of course, is you're the Pablo Torre finds out official Dallas Cowboys correspondent. That's right. And so the first question that I have for you is, how about them Cowboys, Charles? Oh, man, how about them Cowboys? What happened? I think that they weren't able to adjust on defense. I think it come down to, they had some good players, but they didn't have the right players to fit the scheme

that Iberfuss was running. And then when they realized that and they tried to change it, it was like the position coaches didn't have them ready. And in the biggest moments they felt against Detroit, you know, You know? Yeah. They were playing 10 yards off the wide receiver, off of Jameson Williams, the fastest dude on the field, you're going to give him 10 yards? He was gone.

They were covering him with the safety. Come on, Matt. That'd be like me trying to cover it. Well, can I read you? Can I read you the e-message that you sent us? Because I need to hold you to account as a guy with takes. You're referencing Jameson Williams, referencing Mattie Bufluis, referencing the coaches. This is what you said May 20, 25.

Oh, quote. So in case you didn't hear, this is the year the Cowboys win another Super Bowl, exclamation. When you heard it here first, and what it happens, remember I predicted it, I'm so pumped about the upcoming NFL season and college football two, end quote. Okay. And then some stuff happened. I was thinking about you on January 4th. Yeah. How did you feel, in truth, about playing the Giants, last game of the season, and what you wanted?

After the Detroit game, I didn't want them to win another game because I wanted a top 10 pick, a top 8 pick, you know, to be able to get the player that they need. And if you ask me what they need, they need a big defensive end that can rush. You know what I'm saying? So them don't grow in trees. Them are at the top 10.

You had one. You had one of those. He wasn't big enough. Michael Parsons wasn't doing enough. Yeah. If you ever watch, like, for instance, whenever they would play the San Francisco 49ers, Trent Williams would put his handles on him, and it was over. He'd eliminate him.

And whenever he would play an elite defensive tackle like that, that happens to him. Because he's a linebacker. He's a linebacker size, right? 6-3, 250. Yeah. You need 6-5-290 coming off that end, right? And so I love Michael Parsons, but playing. half of your salary to three guys

would have been insane. We're just, now we're doing, now we're doing, but what would have been insane. So, so, we're doing PTI now. You're on parting interruption, Charles. Okay, all right, all right, right.

Are you kidding me? Are you kidding? Micah Parsons wasn't big enough. Yeah. He's the best player on the team. Yeah, he was. Okay, hold on, hold on. Yeah, yeah, he was.

I want to point out that you guys have the number 12 pick, the number 20 pick now. Yes. And you have a priority that you're, you're placing on the future, on the long view of the next generation of Cowboys Star. Yeah. If you could tell the Dallas Cowboys a specific thing, give them a take, what do you want to tell them? I think they've got to stay on defense.

They can't get enamored with another offensive player, no matter who it is. You have to draft defense. And you have to build from the inside out. You got to put that defensive end, that big guy. You got to find him. And you got to put him on there. And then with the 20th pick, get a linebacker. And then Jerry Jones, you have to spend some money in free agency.

You got it. Charles. Charles, it's a remarkable thing. It's a remarkable thing. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. How much faith you have in this team despite it all. So if you missed our original interview with Charles Flores, this is where I need to jump in to tell you why the state of Texas has plans to execute him

and how I got interested in his case in the first place. In 1999, Charles got sentenced to death for the murder of Betty Black, a 64-year-old woman who was shot and killed during a break-in at her home, just outside of Dallas. But Charles, is worth noting, was never accused of being the person who shot Betty Black, or even carrying a weapon. In fact, there has never been any physical evidence linking him to the crime at all.

What Charles was accused of, instead, was being a knowing participant. in the murder and attempted robbery, to which Charles pleaded not guilty, maintaining, to this day, that he wasn't at the house in question at all. But how Charles Flores was still found guilty of capital murder, despite all of that, is what really blew my mind about his case,

because it involves this video. First thing I remember is when I looked down to the window and I saw a car pulled up into the driveway. I remember it was a VW fog, and then I remember seeing two guys get out. And I remember looking at the passenger as he got out and remembering his dark hair, but basically the same as the drivers.

In the absence of physical evidence, what the state of Texas did was use a tactic called forensic hypnosis on the eyewitness in this video. This is the victim's neighbor. A woman named Jill Bargeneer. Jill Bargeneer had initially told police that she saw two white men, both with long dark hair, step out of a multicolored Volkswagen, and head toward her neighbor's house.

And in a photo lineup, Bargeneer picked out a tall white guy with long dark hair named Richard Childs as the driver. But Bargeneer did not identify Charles Flores, not initially. And then the forensic hypnosis happened. Have you ever seen a documentary film, like on TV, like the, with the Animal Kingdom show, or, you know, what we're going to do is, is when we get you into a deep state of hypnosis, we're going to take you into a theater.

It's going to be your own private theater. And basically what it is, you're going to be seeing in a documentary. And you're going to be seeing the film of the events that occurred on that day, on that morning. Okay. I'm going to ask you to verbal on it. I'm going to ask you to. I'll tell you more about the scientific absurdity of this tactic in a bit,

but what you need to know right now is that at the trial of Charles Flores, more than a year later, Jill Bargeneer finally identified him as the passenger Richard Childs had been driving, even though Charles, of course, has never looked like a tall white guy with long, dark hair. And here's the kicker. In the state of Texas, there is something called the Law of Parties, which punishes knowing participants in a capital murder as if they, themselves, had fired the gun.

Which is all to say that Charles Flores got sentenced to death in 1999 because a forensically hypnotized witness belatedly identified him as the passenger of the actual gunman, Richard Childs. Who, by the way, proceeded to strike a plea bargain admitting to being the killer once Charles got convicted. Which is how Richard Childs, eventually got released on parole back in 2016, 10 years ago now, while Charles remains trapped here,

one of 161 men awaiting execution. Can you describe the surroundings for people who are just hearing us talk? Well, I'm a Texas death row prisoner, and we're at Polonski Unit in the visitation room. Yeah, I mean, you've been here for how long now? 26 years. Since 99. Since 99.

And among the 161, are you one of the elder statesmen by now? Are you one of the vets? Yeah, I mean, you know, I don't want to... Nothing to be proud of, I guess. But yeah, I've been here a long time. And so I am one of the old-school cats here. And it's kind of funny because I've read that people are often they stayed the age that they were inside their head when they were locked up.

So I got here, I was 28, I think, I believe. And then a lot of times I still think I'm 28, you know. And then when people, hey, old school, who the hell's that fool talking to? You know what I'm the same? But it's me. I'm 56 years old now. You know what I'm saying? So that is surreal.

It's kind of hard to comprehend, I guess. What do you remember about America, the outside world in 1999? Where are the last things you remember? I'll tell you an interesting story. In 1998, okay, that was the last time I was free. I had a cell phone, and it was the first digital cell phone that had come out. Because before then, they were analog, okay? There wasn't no text.

There wasn't no pictures. much less internet or anything. It was just clear, you know what I'm saying? And that was like state of the art. So imagine that. But now, how aware are you of all the things that have happened? Oh, man, it's just so, you know, remember, we didn't have TV. Here.

Yeah, for, until what, 20, 23? TVs were only available in the Polensky Unit starting three, two years ago. Exactly, yes. Just so you know how much of a football. football fan I am. The first thing that we got to watch was the Chiefs beating the Eagles and the Super Bowl. What did it feel like to watch the Super Bowl? It was amazing. Because back in the gap in 98, they didn't have all the angles in all the ways to see the game. And to have that camera jumping around like that, it was just, it was almost like disconcerting. We'd never seen it, right? Now everybody's

used to, yeah, but wow, it's amazing. I mean, you tune back in, and suddenly this is the thing that is the only thing that everyone can gather around is football. That's what's happened out here, is that football's only become the most important thing in America. That's right. That's right. And so we're talking, by the way, ahead of the Super Bowl. Yes. And so can you explain where the Super Bowl now ranks among events here?

Okay, so it's probably a revolving thing. Christmas, Thanksgiving, Super Bowl. But let me tell you, if the Texans make it, Super Bowl is going to be number one. You know, because the biggest population back there are the guys from Houston. Yeah. I don't know about CJ Stroud, but man, that defense is scared.

And you remember the Baltimore team that won the Super Bowl with Trent Dill for? Yeah. They remind me of that. Didn't watch it, but I listened to it, right? I was going to say, you were listening to these things. Listen to me. Yeah.

They had Jamal, what it was, Jamal Anderson was running back? It was Jamal Lewis. Lewis? Okay, I knew it was it Jamal. Amherst and Falcons running back. Jamal Lewis Ravens running back. Yeah.

You remember, they had a run game. Yeah. And they had a quarterback who was just eh. Yeah. Yeah, you can hear that. You can hear them just being eh. As you were following the game. That's right. That's right.

So can you remind us just like how you watch the game? There's a TV now. Yeah. And so just your, again, solid three hours a day, and you have these, I mean, you're in a cement box. That's a tiny cement box, steel doors, but there are, there's like an opening where you're just like watching the communal television out in the hall, basically. Yes, yeah. So, I'm at, the cell is nine foot wide, 12 foot long.

At the front of the cell, I have a door that's about waist height. They have two cuts. They have two cutouts, three inches wide, and then about three foot tall. I see. And it's not glass, it's this wire. Okay, they don't have glass in it. So that allows the sound to come in a lot better, and, you know, we can talk and all that. But you're watching through the little diamonds on, like, the chain link wire, basically. Exactly. So I have some legal work that I make a makeshift like stool, and it's about the size of the chair or this stool that I'm sitting on. Your papers from your case now decades long is now big enough to be tall yeah right you're gosh i believe it so when i'm watching tv when i'm watching football i have my my stool at the at the front of the cell and i'm sitting you know

about this close and i usually i have a book that i put on the sink and that's my like in table so i have my drink there maybe if i have chips or whatever nachos or whatever, you know what I'm saying? They're there. And then, like, some of the plays, first down, and, you know, and they run the ball, I'm just sitting here. But, like, if it's third and ten or whatever, I get up. Yeah. I get up, and I'm looking through that diamond.

I'm watching, because I'll have to get as close as I can get. Right, you can get on the stack of papers now. Yeah, yeah, but when it's time to really watch, you've got to get up there close. You're putting your eye, you're making a diamond chip with your hands, and you're looking right through. Yeah, and I'm actually looking through it. one of these squares. You're picking one and then. Yes, yeah. Focusing in on that. Yeah. And the TV, the TV is probably, more or less from here to the blue wall, on the bit behind the machines. Uh-huh.

So what's that? There's a row of vending machines behind me. There's a blue wall right there. Yeah, 25, 30, 30 foot away, something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But where I'm at, I'm in the face-based program and we've got a 50-inch TV. It's like one of the perks and it's on the wall. So I can see it pretty good. Right. Do that. little diamond you can see. Yeah, I'm blessed. To me, that's blessed. Well, it's this thing that sports allows. Yes. That I really want to like understand because the Super Bowl comes around and it's this holiday. And I imagine there are rituals here. Yeah. Yeah. Like food. Like how does that work on Super Bowl Sunday? Remember, when you're sent to prison, you're taken away from your people. You're taken away from

your clan. You're taken away from your clan. You're taken away from. from everything that you know and you love and you agree with, and then you're put here. And then so, like, being a fan of something, that's part of being in society. And even though we're locked away, being a fan, me being a cowboy fan, or the brothers back there, you know, being super hype about the Houston Texans, that's their connection to, one of the connections to the free world, right? And so that's why everybody is so invested in it because it's not just them. It's mom at home, it's dad at home, it's brothers when you call home.

That's all they're talking about. That's all we're talking about. And you were just so hype. You know what I'm saying? So the Super Bowl is a big deal. And so everybody will make some type of Super Bowl feast, some type of big meal, right? And for me, remember, the Super Bowl is in the late afternoon. So, you know, it starts about 5.30, 6 o'clock, right?

So I'll probably make some appetizer, nachos or something, you know. And we buy everything that we cook. It's already pre-cooked from the prison commissary. And the prison commissary, just imagine it that's our grocery store. You buy a big bag of tortilla chips, all right? You buy a bottle of squeeze cheese. and you buy a chili with bean that's in like a microwavable pat.

And the key is you got to know how to mix them. What's Charles Flores' secret to mixing all that stuff? If I tell you, I might have to charge you. I can tell that you're the guy who knows the secret recipe here. Yeah, yeah, by my size, I'm sure you can tell. I wasn't going to say it. But the idea that you guys are all celebrating the Super Bowl individually, but together. But together. Because remember, imagine, imagine like you see these booths here.

You know, imagine there's a dude in each one. Yeah, and right. But we're all at the front. We're all there. So I can talk to the guy here. I can talk to the guy next to me. I can talk to the guy at the end if I shout loud enough. Yeah. It's just like if you're at home, because when the commercial comes on or whatever, you know, that's where like, man, did you see this place? How about, you know, that guy's playing good. Or C.J. Stroud, man, don't throw the ball again.

Just run, you know. When they go to sack, you just go down, you know. But the idea that you're hearing stuff, I want to actually understand, like, you know, listening to the radio when you first get in here. You know, I think about this because the World Cup's coming up this year. Yeah. Ooh, yeah. And I know you're a soccer guy.

Yeah. And so can you explain, like, how soccer. fandom has worked in here and how you first started like, you know, tuning in. You know, that's amazing because in the free world, I really, soccer wasn't a thing. And so I really didn't pay attention to it. But when I got here, when you come to prison, bro, when you come in and it's a new environment and it's potentially dangerous, you're looking for the people that look like you. the white guy doesn't go sit with the black guys

no the white guys goes over there and sits with the white guys right when the mexican guy comes in he's not going to the white guys he's not going to the black guys he's going to the mexican guy you know the latinos that look like him you know and i've always been the type of type of guy that i'm proud of being a latino i'm proud that my people are you know americans of mexican descent i'm proud that i know Spanish and being able to communicate with the brothers that might not know English very well.

Well, it also means you could listen to the better version of the broadcast. Exactly. And so that's where I was going. That's where I'm going. And so with them, they're talking about it. We used to listen to the Mexican national team on a scratchy little AM station out of Houston. And they broadcasted all the games and especially the World Cup, the Gold Cup, you know, Cup of America's, all that, in Spanish. And when I listen to that, I mean, it blew my mind, right? And I loved it.

I loved it. And I got into following the sport, right? Well, they're having so much more fun. Yes. The Spanish language broadcasters are enjoying their lives. Without a doubt, yeah. And I often wondering, are they drinking? here up there or what's going on?

Because they're having too much fun. Once you hear it, it's hard to, it's hard to go back. It's interesting, right? Because for the most part, not a lot of guys follow soccer here. But I think that's going to change when we're going to finally get to watch it.

We didn't get to watch the last world cup. Of course, right. Yeah. You understand what was that? Yeah, every four years. Right. Now this time, we will. Well, I know.

one of your dreams was to get to see the World Cup. Oh, man, yeah. Because finally in North America. Oh, yeah. The question of what you're hoping for and what you were dreaming about, I want to establish that, like, you specifically are the reason that I've been tracking this practice that I didn't know existed called forensic hypnosis. And so the fact that this thing existed for so long,

and the fact that you have been a name and a face that has popped up in the coverage of the story over time. Yes. Like the last decade of the practice of police hypnosis, which is a real thing that exists in America, the last decade, it tracks alongside your last decade of hoping and appealing and trying to see

you could actually get out of here. Yes. And so I just want to go back to 2016. Because in 2016, I'm just looking at the notes I've written down here. Yes. I mean, you were days away from execution. Five days. Could you just describe what it was like to be five days away from the day?

It was surreal. So it's one of those situations you've got to be there. You got to bring a cell next to me. me to experience that, right? But I'll do my best. I remember the last visit before I got my stay of execution, because I got five days away, and it was a Friday, and my mom and my brother had come to visit me. And if that wasn't enough, my father had died two weeks before my scheduled execution. And so I was so traumatized. I wasn't numb. I couldn't have felt no more. You know, the turn. It was up there. I couldn't feel that.

But I remember that I had to be strong for my mother. I had to be the one that encouraged and gave hope. And so instead of having a bunch of people console me, I was the one that was talking about, well, man, it's not over yet. It's not over yet. Because that's how I felt. That's what it was. And I remember telling her,

that the appeal that was followed on the hypnosis stuff, because I'd had a whole string of attorneys before that telling me that that was not a claim. I couldn't use it. It had been settled in the court before, yada, yada, yada, yada, yada, yada, yada, yada. And essentially, they're telling me, no, your ass is dead. You're fixing or die. All you got left is mitigation. And in Texas, it's a riot.

You know what I'm saying? If you're counting on hypnosis to save you, it's over. But we had this claim. It came up at the last minute, and I had a new attorney that was helping me. He was a professor at American University. And so it was him and a class of third-year law students that were able to put this appeal together in about 45 days. And followed, bam.

And I remember when I got it, I sat down and I read it. then I read it again. Then I read it a third time. And I knew that it was the best appeal that had been filed for me. And if the court heard it, I'd get to stay. And I might walk out this place. You know, at that time, I thought that would be the one that would get me out of here. And so, fast forward to that visit.

And I told my mother, I said, Mom, just imagine, like, Like we're at the casino in Las Vegas, and we're betting the farm. We're going to bet everything that we got on this appeal. And if we win, I'm going to get out of here. And if we lose, well, I'll see you in heaven, you know. But believe me, I've got hope because this is the best appeal that was ever following. So that was the mindset. That's what I had in my mind.

I wasn't so much thinking about myself. I was thinking about my mom, who just lost my dad. I knew if they executed me, it's going to kill her. You know what I'm saying? That was the level, the stakes in my situation. And what happened next on May 27, 2016, five days before the state of Texas was scheduled to kill Charles Flores, really needs to be heard to be believed.

Because what Charles just said is true. His legal team had filed an appeal with newfound hope. The practice of forensic hypnosis had long been criticized as fundamentally flawed, if not just outright absurd, given that it really is what it sounds like. The police hypnotizing a person, like the previously mentioned eyewitness, Jill Bargnear, so that they can supposedly recall traumatic events with supposedly greater clarity. I'm going to ask you to concentrate a focus on the tiny, on the hundred-nine little muscles that are on the bottom on your feet.

Three, two, one, and zero. But what Charles's lawyers did, with the clock ticking down, was billed their case around the state's 2013 junk science law, Texas State Article 11.073. And they had this memory expert, named Dr. Stephen Lynn, testify that the hypnosis of Jill Bargeneer was done horribly wrong. Likely creating a false memory of a person, Charles Flores, whose face had been plastered all over the news

in the months after he got arrested. Which now brings us back to what happened on Friday, May 27, 2016. This was hours after Charles' mom, who had just been visiting him, maybe for the last time, had driven away. I didn't find out about it until like 9 o'clock. And I found out about it on the radio. The exact same radio that he had used to listen to NFL broadcasts and soccer games in Spanish.

And that's surreal. When you hear, hey, you know, Pablo Tori, death row prisoner has been given the stay of execution. You're like, whoa, you know? It's like, is this a movie? What's going on? You heard it in your cell. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I heard on the radio. On the radio. And thanks to the archive of KPFT 90.1 FM in Houston, which broadcasts a program every Friday called The Prison Show, where the hosts give updates on inmates' cases. You can now hear this, too. I am so excited, guys, so excited. Get up and jump up. Charles got a stay. Charles got a stay. Get up and tell everyone. I'm going to read what Greg and I put out. The Texas Court of Criminal Appeals state Charles's execution date based on Dr. Stephen Lynn's affidavit that the only eyewitness identification of Charles was tainted by a hypnosis session that was performed with outdated science. The hypnosis session, like,

caused a false memory of Charles and a false identification. Because the information is newly discovered and likely would have resulted in an acquittal if Charles was tried today, the court of criminal appeals remanded the case back to the trial court for further hearings on the junk science used to admit the hypnosis altered memory of Charles. Charles will seek to get a new trial through these hearings. He got to say, guys, we're happy. Thanks, Dave. And I wouldn't the only one.

Everybody heard us. I was going to say it's chair and everybody's happy. But that happiness, that cinematically joyous hope that Charles's case would finally get a retrial. It did not last. In 2017, the state rejected the appeal of Charles Don Flores. And in 2020, the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals upheld the ruling. And this is the point in the story where things get even crazier. Because in 2023, in recognition of all of the criticisms we've already mentioned here,

which were extensively investigated, incidentally, by the Dallas Morning News, Texas passed a new law, a law specifically banning hypnosis-induced evidence from being used in criminal trials. There was sort of a shockwave that went through, Texas about, wait, are we really allowing law enforcement to hypnotize witnesses? This is the person who's represented Charles pro bono since 2016, his lawyer, Gretchen Swen. And it was a big embarrassment for the Texas Rangers, who were sort of the biggest trainers in this technique. And now the law has changed.

It is no longer lawful to admit the fruits of... hypnosis session. So if you want to do that, fine, but you're not going to get then what comes out of that in front of the jury. And that is true in most jurisdictions in this country. But as tremendous as this news seemed for Charles Flores, there was a confounding and infuriating catch. Charles wasn't able to benefit from this law. There's no retroactive provision here. So a law inspired by his case, reflecting a clear sense of outrage, hasn't benefited a guy on death row. All of which, in our view, is profoundly profoundly...

It's not an attractive. It didn't apply. It doesn't apply to the past. So it gets even worse. You know, we had an emergency situation. where the Attorney General wanted to set an execution date this last spring. And it was a miracle. We were able to follow an appeal. And then that appeal had, for the first time, all of the hypnosis information in it. You heard that right. In May 2025, about seven months after our original episode with Charles aired,

The state of Texas attempted to set an execution date for him, a legal letter even circulated, listing several available dates in November 2025. And Gretchen, at this point, his lawyer, immediately filed a petition claiming that this move was unlawful. And then, in June, she filed a new set of affidavits with the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals, and this included new expert declarations that cast even more doubt on the integrity of the original conviction. So we had new claims, new evidence. We also had a great sworn statement from his original trial lawyer who basically said, if I had known any of this, I would have been outraged and describing just the pressures he was under,

what was kept from him, how they weren't even given any discovery until they were already in the middle of trial. And this was standard practice. and that he looked back on his own reaction to this and took responsibility for some of his own choices that were harmful to his client, and also expressed just real outrage that this case is where it is and that Charles has not been given a new trial. And that's pretty amazing stuff.

Except that by October of 2025, several months later, that petition got dismissed. procedurally barred. Without explanation. So what this decision was, was that we're not going to look at the merits of this claim, not even look at it. And, you know, it's devastating.

I get a notice, it's what's called a postcard notice. So there's not even an opinion. It's just you get a notice saying that something was denied. And it's really hard thing to convey to a client that they brought very sincerely all this stuff to a court that is just saying we're not looking at that. And what I really came here to hear from you was what it's like to feel like you're not being hurt. That almost killed me. Again, I was like, I think that the danger, right, that a guy on death row has to deal with is allowing himself to believe that he might get out of here. And so you sit yourself up for a fall.

You know, you sit yourself up for a disappointment. And again, because it's like, it's like groundhog day. Because I get these pill and I read it and I'm like, man, this is amazing. I'm reading it and I'm thinking the same thing. Like this makes a ton of sense. And then when you think about it, again, Gretchen, my attorney, she wrote that in like about two weeks. And it was like everything fell.

So it was like a blessing from the good Lord. I mean, how else can all of this stuff just fall in line? We've been working for five years to try to find an issue so we can file another appeal. All right. I've been in limbo back and forth. And so, bam, it happens. And I allow myself to hope.

And I allow myself to think about, man, I might just get to see that World Cup. I might just get to be watching Dallas Cowboys. You know, I'm allowing myself to imagine my life after death row. I actually allowed myself to think about what I wanted to do when I get out of here. What I want to do is I'm going to take an extended trip. And what kind of music would I've been listening to when I'm on the trip. So I let myself think about that. I let myself go there, right?

And then on October 4th, you know, bam, it was, the dream was destroyed. And like I said, it almost killed me. I'm still not over it. You know what I'm saying? I got a smile on my face. I'm laughing. But, man, you know, I'm just... And I didn't know about the playlist.

Do you know what song is the first song? Do you have a specific song that you've imagined? The first one that I put down was the song, The Road Goes On Forever and the Party Never Ends. And it's a story song. And it's about a guy and a girl. You know the song? Could you give me a little?

Now you're, now you're. you put me on the spot. And what the song is about, let me try to give you the background, is it's a guy and a girl. They meet in a bar, and he was kind of a mess up like me. Try to go to the Navy, but he couldn't pass the test. So he started, he got involved in dealing contraband.

And then the cops got on him, and they sent him to the pen. When he got back out, he was back at it again. So he met the Cuban in a house just off the route With a briefcase full of money And a pistol in his boot So he meets the girl They drive to Miami And they run out of money

The guy has an idea He knows some other guys That deal in contraband So he goes to make the deal He's got the money They've got the product And as that's going down the cops run in.

When he's getting away, he runs to the bathroom, jumps out the back window. There's a cop. And as he's reading him his rights, his girl comes around in his truck with a single shot 410. And the road goes on forever, and the party never ends.

And later on that night, he gives her all the money. And he tells her, when the cops catch up to you, tell him that I, I'll put you up to this. And then the story ends, I think it's 21 months later. She reads that he's going to the chair.

Share buys a paper and a cold six pack of beer. The headlines read that Sonny is going to the chair. She pulls back on the main street in her new Mercedes Benz. The road goes on forever and the party never ends. As she gets in a brand new Mercedes-Benz, the road goes on forever, and the party never ends. So, yeah, it's a pretty, it's a pretty dramatic song. It's great, though, right? Yeah, it's great, it's great, it's great.

I want to fill people in on this. Like, as time is wearing thin here, we have this place to ourselves, right? It's empty. And there are other people here who are scheduled, who are on the dock. for execution when I believe someone soon is scheduled what's it like in here as that gets closer does the air change does what what does that feel like so when you get up when you're given an active execution day there's two death row that there's the death row where the majority of the guys are there and it's like suspended animation almost because you don't have the active

execution day right so you're you're you're you're going through the appeals process that's running. So you're kind of, quote, safe. You really never safe here, but you allow yourself to believe that because I'm not going to die next month or six months from now or next year. You know, whatever, however. Then there's the other death row, which is the true death row, which is you have an active execution day. And when you have the execution day, you're put on death watch. and it's a section of cells, seven on the bottom, seven on the top,

where all the guys that had this pending execution date are housed. And in these cells, they have a camera in the corner. So they're monitoring you, they're watching you 24 hours a day, seven days a week. So make sure you don't hurt yourself, so you'll be alive in time. for them to murder you, you understand? And so there, I think, what is it, five, four or five guys over there right now. When I,

Death Watch is on my pod. This is A section. This is B section. This is C section. I live in C section. My cell is there. A section is Death Watch. So when I come through today,

on the way up out here, Buzzbee was in the day room. Eddie Lee is what we call it. So I hollered at him. What's up, Eddie Lee? He's a cowboy fan, too, just so you know. So yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's always a reminder.

He's over there, you know, because sometimes, you know, you get caught up in your own thing. You're doing your own thing. So that reality will slip away. When you're over there with them, you can't get away from it. You understand what I'm saying?

You can't get away from that. Because you're the one with the date. Everybody's around you's got the day. You look up. There's that camera watching you. You can't get away from that. I want to be clear about this again for people. The man who pled guilty, who confessed to shooting Betty Black is free.

That's right. You got out on probation. Yeah, 10 years. And you're still here. And I'm wondering if you ever imagine what he's doing now. I try not to think about things that upset me. I work real hard at staying peaceful and positive. And yeah, if I start thinking about that,

I imagine that might upset me a little bit. Get angry. And I used to, in my younger days, I think I used to enjoy getting angry and acting out. Now it's like the thing that I, I dislike the most. I hate not being in control of myself. And so with the anger, because like for anger with me, man, once I start getting angry,

it's like I'm hanging on to a rope and I can't, I can't grab it. And it's just slipping away, slipping away. And once I get angry, it's over. So that's just something that I've learned as I've matured in life. And so, yeah, I don't think about that kind of thing. I think about positive things instead, you know. I hadn't thought about how the thing you can control that you've worked on controlling for decades

is the one thing you can, which is how you choose to feel. Yeah. When did that occur to you that this was going to be something that you take pride in being disciplined about? It's interesting because that goes with the spiritual journey that I started, man, 20 years ago, right?

and just, I had to, I knew that I had to learn to control myself. It took me about five, maybe eight years to get to the point to where I was like, man, I had a problem. A problem led me to being in the cell, and I can't control, I can't control my reactions. And that's, that's emphasis on reactions. Something would happen and I would react. I couldn't, I wouldn't think. of the consequences. I couldn't weigh, well, man, if you do this, you know, you're going to get in trouble.

You know, and so, so wouldn't, couldn't able to do that. And it's interesting because at that point of my life, I started hearing a bunch about meditation. I was reading about meditation. I was hearing about meditation on, on the radio. Everywhere I turned, it seemed like meditation was coming at me. And I was like, I want to learn how to meditate. And I did. And I, and with the, what's the, help of friends and people sending me books and that kind of thing. That was the key. That was the key of putting space between the awareness that is me and my ego, which is pride, which is anger, which is all of those things, right? And the more you meditate, the more the space is in between that, right? And that was what gave me the handle on controlling. Is that, that makes sense?

It's frankly the only thing that explains how you could be a Cowboys fan this long. Well, see, I'm at a disadvantage. Who's your team? The Browns? The Steelers? This Charles laughing. The Giants come on with it. I grew up a Giants fan.

I know. The Cowboys. whipping boy. Okay. So January 4th, by the way, the side of that story, which I did not disclose until now, is that of course, the New York Giants beat your ass. And for that reason, no longer have the number one overall picking the NFL drag. Went from one to five. Congratulations. But this is the irony, right? The irony is that

out here in the free world, as you've called it, the Giants were like, we got to get this win now. And meanwhile, while you in here have the right logical, but paradoxical view. If anyone were to have this view of like, we're playing for the future. That's right. We want these picks.

We want... You got it. You got it. You got to have it like that. And I just want to make sure that I give you the opportunity to tell people what you wish for them to hear. Because you're still fighting this thing. There are some hailmen. Mary's left, there's also hopefully a conversation that keeps going about how it is that a guy

who has always maintained his innocence, who had zero pieces of physical evidence, DNA or anything at the scene of the crime, who was only put in to the Flunski unit because of a debunked forensic hypnosis procedure that you can watch on tape and is mind-blowing to revisit. what Charles Don Flores would like them to hear? Well, I know this much. Suffering is universal. Victimhood is optional. Victimhood is being stuck is rigor mortis of the mind.

It's being stuck in past slights, past disrespects, past traumas, and it doesn't let you go. the reason that people embrace victimhood, that we embrace victimhood, is because it gives you the right to feel like, you had the audacity to do that to me. I'm so grateful that I've gotten to the age and the maturity that I know the difference. And so, again, suffering's universal stuff happens. And I keep taking these losses. I keep having these traumatic events happen to me. But in the end, I believe in good.

I believe in a higher power. I believe in that sooner or later the truth's going to come out. And I'm going to have that opportunity to see life after this. And in the meantime, I'm like, when these things happen, I'm just like, man, that hurt. okay, what's next? And when I'm able to do that, they're not torturing me.

They're not making me suffer in a way that I think some people who do support the death penalty want you to. Because it's not enough for them just to murder you, right? Take your life. They want you to suffer before. And so that's how I deal with that.

And with regards to my case, man, I just want a fair review. I just want a fair shot. the Dallas County Prosecution Office, the Dallas DA, they have a conviction's integrity unit. And I want them to look at my case. I want them to review the case. Give it a look.

Let the evidence speak for itself. And you come to the conclusions. Because until now, they don't want to do that. You know, they refuse to look at it. And they are totally and completely in control on whose case they look at. it's my understanding that the head prosecutor in Dallas, he doesn't understand that I have an actual innocence claim. He doesn't know that.

And I want him to know that. This is not just a technicality thing, right, that I'm trying to just get off on some type of rule. No, I'm innocent. I can prove it. Let the evidence speak for that. Look at it. Look at it.

And I think if we're able to get there, well, then I might be able to take that trip one day. I'm looking forward to, brother. Charles, I really hope that your road continues. And I hope to see you out there, man. Got it out. Maybe we can go to the giant cowboy game together. Oh, God, you're going to be insufferable. Because I believe him, Auntie.

So if this were a normal episode of Pablo Torre finds out, that would be the ending. I think we would choose to go out on this laugh, yet another laugh from a guy who can find joy, apparently, who can control his emotions, as he explained, despite what his government is actively trying to do to him. But that's not exactly what happened, as the clock on our hour together. ticked down to zero. What I saw was the guards of the Polensky Unit escorting Charles back into solitary, back into a cell in C-section, where this innocent man continues to await execution

for a crime he did not commit. And I need to be clear, Charles has now exhausted all available avenues within the state of Texas now. His lawyer, Gretchen, she's going to petition the United States Supreme Court tomorrow, February 6th. But things are looking bleak. And so what we have for you in the show notes of this episode is a petition.

And we really hope you can sign it. It's at actionnetwork.org slash petitions slash Charles, or we can just click on that link. And our goal is to make sure that people continue to hear his story. That's all we can really ask for here is for people to give a shit And there's also a song And there's also a song

It is a song by Robert Earl Keene And I keep listening to it In honor of a superfan Who is dreaming of finally queuing up A playlist And leaving the Polanskii's unit and driving away. Sonny took his pool,

Kool-Aid to drunk out on the floor stuffed a dollar in her tip jar walked on out the door She's running right behind him Reaching for his hand The road goes on forever And the party never in This has been Pablo Torre finds out

A Metal Arc Media production And I'll talk to you next time