Page 7 - CelebReadies: Carrie Fisher's Wishful Drinking

Episode Date: August 29, 2025

You guys, this is such a beautiful book! This is one we highly, highly recommend listening to and enjoying for yourself-- it's read by Fisher and it is somehow an absolute joy to read despite its heavy subject matter. It's such a short read that we finish it in one episode. Fisher talks about growing up in the shadows of her famous parents, her marriage to Paul Simon, and her struggles with substance use and mental illness. It is just fantastic. Enjoy the episode!Want even more Page 7? Support us on Patreon! Patreon.com/Page7Podcast  Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes of Page 7 ad-free.Start a free trial now on Apple Podcasts or by visiting siriusxm.com/podcastsplus. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Just take a look. It's in a book. It's celebrities. Celebrities. Celebrities. Celebrities. It's so the opposite of everything I felt about the last book that we read. Oh, God. So true.

Oh, my God. That is so true. We just came off of Prince Harry's Spare, a very long novel. about a man who has had a mildly interesting life. And we are coming into... Wow, okay. You love this read. Yes.

Drag him. And we are coming into Carrie Fisher's wishful drinking, a very, very short book, adaptation of a one-person show about a person whose life has been phenomenally interesting. And it really is, it is the polar opposite. I mean, and, you know, another nepo, another nepo. Wow.

But a good nepo. A good nepo. This is why nepoes are good sometimes. I guess it depends on what you mean by a good nepo. I guess it depends on like when we're talking nepoes. And yeah, I guess we're talking nepoes today, y'all. Now, she is like a queen of nepo's of sorts because everybody knows that. that Carrie Fisher is the daughter of Debbie Reynolds on top of the fact that everybody knows

that Debbie Reynolds lived next door to Carrie Fisher and that they were very, very close. And I feel like that's, or at least I say everybody knows that. That was pretty much what I knew about Carrie Fisher. I knew that Carrie Fisher was fun and then I knew that she was very close to her mother. And that she was Princess Leia. That was like essentially the three things I knew about Carrie Fisher before jumping into this. And I need you to know what a delightful thing to unfold to get to know that like I felt like it was a pleasure. Like I was given a gift to get to know a snapshot of who Carrie Fisher was.

Truly. This book is one of those books. I listened to it. But I kind of want to read it also. It's like this is one of those books that is just a, it's like a pleasure. It just is a pleasurable experience. I'm listening to the book while I'm making dinner and I'm smiling, I'm laughing, I'm tearing up. It's just like, this is one of those celebrities, apologies, listeners, if you were not planning to read it.

Jackie and I are going to talk about it. We're going to have a great time talking about it. But she is an artist of words. She is so funny the way that she tells, because it's not really about, it's not a biography by any means. It's a memoir, but it's much more a reflection. on these like glimpses of parts of her life. Like I certainly don't feel like I know the entire story of her life. But it's just the way she tells it is just stunning.

I think that the way that you summarized Jackie is like, you know, that we know that she is fun, that we know that she was close to her mother and that she was Princess Lay. I think she would be happy that you put it in that order. Yes. Yes. This is a story of somebody who was born already not having her own reputation because because she is the daughter of Debbie Reynolds, who,

aren't you glad we watched Singing in the Rain? Now you know. I am. Now I know. I know the love and the lust. And she is, I mean, Debbie Reynolds, radiant.

Of the child, by the way, of the child. She was 17, I think, at the time. But, like, certainly, even though Debbie Reynolds maybe isn't as famous as some of the stars of that same era to us now, if you watch Singing in the Rain or any of other films, you really do see that she is a radiant,

absolute star. And so Carrie Fisher is kind of already born in a shadow of her mom and also her dad, who is a famous songwriter, who then also leaves Debbie Reynolds for Elizabeth Taylor. So she's just, she grows up in the shadow of all

of these bigger... Of giants. Of giants. And I want to read like the entire excerpt where she talks about that in particular. But then she goes on to when she is so young, I think 19 is when she gets cast as Princess Leia.

So then, and then immediately, she becomes, as she puts it, a fictional character. So it's like she goes from having a childhood of not really being her own, of always being kind of in the shadow of her mother and her father, absent father, by the way, but still in his shadow. Eddie Fisher, by the way, Eddie Fisher. I literally, like, she said his name Eddie so many times, but I couldn't remember what his last name was. And I'm just like, yeah, it's just her last name, you idiot.

it. But then she... I was like, I just... In my head, I was like, no, it's Debbie Reynolds's daughter. Sorry, my brain sometimes just goes on a bit of a spiral all on its own.

And continue. Carrie Fisher, for some reason, is a better stage name than Carrie Reynolds. I'm not sure why. It works. It works. But yeah,

and then she immediately becomes Princess Leia and then is kind of unable to escape from that shadow for her entire life, right? And so, like, it's this fascinating. And also, but it's, but it's, what's wild is that she has so much personality. She is.

Oh, my God. So much her own person. And so how it's like so, in my, I was telling my mom that I was reading it. My mom said, well, isn't it really sad? And it's, this is an interesting book because on the one hand, it is obviously, like, technically, you could say it's sad. Like she had in many ways a difficult childhood. She had a lot of trauma, both as a child as an adult.

She has bipolar disorder. She struggled with a lot. So it is sad. But there's just something about her voice and the way that she talks about her life where she's kind of like her take is because kind of like, I actually have had like a pretty good life. It's just that it's also been really hard. And like, here's how that felt. I think that's why she wins you over so much as a Nepo because it's not a boo-hoo poor me. It's just more of this stuff happened to me, and then my brain went,

which, you know, as someone that also was, and man, I feel very silly because I didn't know what a mental health advocate, Carrie Fisher was. And now I want to look so much further into the work that she's done specifically for bipolar disorder as someone that was diagnosed manic depressive in the time before they called that bipolar, and also eventually moved on. Then I was like, oh, cool. Does that mean like, oh, I'm extra crazy. Oh, great, that I'm even.

And it's like, no, it doesn't mean you're even crazier. I'm like, I feel like you're telling me that I'm even crazier because the more you talk about it, the less I'm doing anything about it. And it is also very validating to read from someone that's like, everyone's always told me I have such a fun personality. I have such a fun personality. It's like, oh, it's because I'm deeply, mentally ill. And it's like, I bring the party. And you find out at some point, sometimes, I'm not saying all the time, but sometimes when you bring the party,

That's because you're a bit of a mania yourself. I did want to ask you about all of the ways that she talks about manic depression and bipolar as from your experience. My favorite quote about which, I mean, the entire book is so well written. I have so many quotes pulled. Oh, my God. I have so many quotes pulled. They're all just so good. But this one, you know how most illnesses have symptoms you can recognize like fever, upset stomach, chills, whatever?

Well, with manic depression, it's sexual promiscuity, excessive spending, and substance abuse. That just sounds like a fun weekend in Vegas to me. And I thought about you. You thought about me. No wonder I'm so much fun. I wasn't dealing with my brain problems. And Edgy talks about she ends up naming her two, like the two parts of herself. of Roy and Pam.

Rollicking Roy is the fun one. And Pam stands for piss and moan, which is the depressed one. I love. Hi. Then to a point that I was like, should I be doing this? I feel like it would help further myself because, you know, that is a large part of working on bipolar disorders, understanding the different sections of yourself and realizing how to, well, you can never really meld all of them, but you just, you deal with them, but you have to be able to recognize them.

And something that I have learned about with my own kids mental health, too, and just general mental health, is that there's a regulation strategy where you say, this is part of me, this isn't all of me. And I don't know if that's helpful, but like, that by understanding the parts of yourself of being like Pam and Roy, you know, Roy is part of me, but not all of me. Yes, yes. It's just a section and that's okay because, you know, everyone contains multitudes. But you really have to understand that it's like sometimes being with a werewolf and the werewolf can seem very fun at times. Oh, we're charming and we're enticing. And even just down to the cadence of her voice and the way in which she spoke and told these stories, I felt like I was sitting down on a couch with her. Yes.

It felt like I was just talking to some bitch, like that we just, as someone that I have been to multiple AA meetings, I've been many NA meetings, I've been to, it's like I, like, I, it's just the stories that you get told. And that's why I do enjoy her discussing her journey of sobriety. and I imagine that going and telling these stories not only helped her so much, but I imagine helped facilitate the creation of the one woman show. Right. Because, oh, my God, what an opportunity it must have been to see her perform this show.

Oh, my God. I remember where I was when we heard that Carrie Fisher died because I was with Gideon, and he was really, really sad because Star Wars is such a huge part of his life. But I remember, I just remember obviously being sad and feeling like, yeah, you know, that she was so young, what a loss. But, like, it's there was something about reading this book where the loss, like the loss of her mind, you know. It's like when you lose a celebrity, you think about losing them as kind of like a figure, you know, like. And she was no longer, I don't think, doing a lot of acting work. but just like her writing, and she started writing when she was young.

Postcards from the Edge was this collection of writing that she wrote when she was very in her 20s. She also helped on like a million scripts that like you never would have thought that she was working on behind the scenes too. Like she did a lot of like comedy scripts. Like she was working on like, I forget it was like, I think it was, she worked on a hook and sister act. She was like a script doctor. Wow. I want to read another quote. We can also, we could go back and try to do a little bit of chronology if we want to,

but the way that she talks about her relationship with substance use and alcohol really was like, it really, really resonated. It's very powerful and very moving. And this, I think, is my favorite quote from the entire book. Happy is one of the many things I'm likely to be over the course of a day and certainly over the course of a lifetime. But I think if you have the expectation that you're going to be happy throughout your life. More to the point, if you have a need to be comfortable all the time, well, among other things, you have the makings of a classic drug addict or alcoholic.

It hurts. It hurt me. It's like that Facebook thing where you're like, I'm tagged in this picture and I don't want to be. I was like, oh, oh, wow. Wow. That is why I like substances. That's exactly why I like substances. It was also interesting because I was specifically at that point, I had literally just walked outside and hit a joint. And I was listening to it. And I was just like, yeah, I guess I don't need to be comfortable all the time. I guess that this isn't the, because it was like the end of my day. And I was like, all right.

And I just put it down. And I thought about that because what, because what an orator. Yes. That she so easily just like spears into your brain in like a fun labom. bottomy kind of way. Yes. And she actually begins the book with the framing of that she, she wants to do this exercise of talking about her memories and going over her life because she did electroshock therapy to treat her depression as a kind of last resort

after suffering with depression for so long. And so then she says that it really eliminated a lot of her memories and she wants to rebuild them and revisit them, which is an amazing framing for a project. Yes. And you. even said that in the loss of Carrie Fisher, it's also one of the biggest losses we lost her mind. But it's interesting that you even phrased it like that because I feel like in her brain, she had already lost such big chunks of her memory that like, I wonder if for her, she's like, well, portions of me are already gone. And she talks about that tradeoff too.

She's like, isn't it, isn't it, is this a tradeoff that you would want to make like when you contemplate like losing all your memories but escaping the depression that you couldn't get out from under otherwise, you know? The debilitating weight that she dealt with every single day and putting that to paper in such a, in such a way that didn't feel while I know that like this is a sad book and we were saying like, oh, all these books are so sad. Like this is a sad book. but it also is sad in a bittersweet, reflective manner that actually I find very soothing.

A hundred percent. The book didn't make me sad at all. The only thing that made me sad was that she's not alive anymore. Like, yes. That was the only sad thing about it. All of her sadness and her struggle throughout life, the way she writes about it, I actually found to be incredibly comforting. Yes, as someone that is looking back on life.

And it's like, tell me what? you're seeing. Give me that perspective. I want it, you know? And there were just so many times that I felt like that's why I know that, yeah, like you said, we're talking about this so that like we read it so you don't have to. But this one, honestly, it's like a three and a half hour listen. We're going to just gush about this for right now. But I would recommend listen to her read the audiobook. If you can get it, like get at the library, just listen to her read it because it is such a, honestly, it gives me what I keep talking about with choir. It gives you that feeling. Yeah, yeah. It gives you the feeling of sitting and talking to somebody that has experienced a lot more than you have.

Yes. But is telling you in a way not to be like, so don't walk the path that I tread. She's not even saying that. Not even at all. She's just like, she is definitely doing the way. more the like if you've got nothing nice to say come sit by me old lady kind of thing you know what I mean not old lady she's 52 like she's not old lady in this I mean that in my brain I see her you know in the years after which also I didn't realize that she died days before Debbie Reynolds yeah I think she died before Debbie Reynolds and I think Debbie Reynolds I'm not even able to say I think Debbie Reynolds, you know, I know. It's, it's, I found myself so moved at the fact that she and her mom lived next door to each other. I know. That is something that at a different stage in my life, I would have maybe been like, that's weird. But I do remember when she died that Debbie Reynolds gave a statement that was just like, you know, this is, I don't even remember what the statement was. But I at the time, um, and perhaps still bigger fan of Debbie Reynolds than Carrie Fisher because singing in the rain is my Star Wars. And so when Carrie Fisher died, I remember thinking, oh my God, poor. Debbie Reynolds, but really poor, like, I think she just didn't, you know, it's like when you

hear about married couples who die within days of each other, like, Debbie Reynolds did not live very long after that. They were so close. And I also love, right, it's like, Carrie Fisher has this, she does have the kind of like, grizzled, wise, you know, voice down very well. And it's very, I love the character. Do you have a caricature of your mother? She can't listen to this.

Her do it. Yeah. It's on Patreon. You can't hear this. Do you have a voice for your mother? Not in the same way that you have for Linda. But yeah, hearing this Carrie Fisher as the bridge to this different era. And it's true, especially now that you've seen it singing in the range, she says,

my mother had the accent of a movie star. Like, she trained for it. She was from Texas, which I didn't even know. She was like self-described by Carrie Fisher as white trash. But then she becomes famous at this very young age, Debbie Reynolds does. and she gets the kind of like, yeah, it is almost kind of transatlantic. Yeah, and it's almost kind of transatlantic like, well, darling. And she really does talk that way.

So whatever she's talking about her mother. And it's very, it's like her mom is, you know, the mother to like a bipolar, somebody who struggles to substance use. So it's her mother being like, darling, you've got to stop doing so much acid. I called Carrie Grant to see if I can talk to you about it. Carrie Grant is going to call you. And Carrie, Grant, expect to call. Fisher talks about how she grew up on movie sets and she grew up surrounded by so many famous

people that she never gets starstruck except for Carrie Grant. And then who called her to lecture her about using too much acid? Because Carrie Grant had like done acid in a medicinal setting, I think because of maybe some like war trauma. I don't remember. But he I mean hell yeah, dude. Which yeah, first of all, I'm like they were doing medicinal hallucinogenics back then. Like this is- No, honestly, look into the history of how far and what good it was doing in the world of mental health and how it all got shut down and defunded. It's insane, bro.

Nuts. Wow. Yeah. So he's like, he has had this supervised, you know, medicinal experience with it. But Debbie Reynolds asked him to call. all Gary Fisher. It's just, it's so funny. It's like, it's just a hilarious, like, you know, the famous starlet from the 50s calls the famous star from the 40s to call the famous star from the 70s to tell her to stop doing so much acid. Stop doing so much acid. And then like a few

months later, her father, Eddie Fisher, is at the funeral of Grace Kelly. Grace Kelly. And then at that funeral, Eddie Fisher goes up to Carrie Grant and is like, can you call my daughter Carrie and tell her to stop doing so much acid. So Carrie Grant calls her again. And Carrie Fisher is like, can you please? You please. Please stop. Stop telling Carrie Grant.

He's already tried, all right? And I'm still doing acid. But I love the way in which she tells it is so fun. It's such a, like, it's not even like, like, it's more of like a, oh, mom, but she's talking about. The Carrie Grant. Yeah. So the old mom stories, I think that's why, like, when we were talking about her being a nepo,

but her being a good nepo, I feel like, or is she? Because really, she super star to, like, I mean, like, when she was young, I feel like she came off as, like, a rough nepo. Like, if we, like, in the way in which we talk about the baby nepoes now, right, right. She was messy. feel like she was messy. She definitely was having a, for a good reason. I mean, I understand why she was messy with the life that she had. But it is an excuse, though, also that, which I understand.

I'm saying as an addict myself, I'm saying that I understand this. And I think a lot of other people do. Well, let me tell you something that I've been thinking about since, please go on this short journey with me. since the election of Zoran Mamdani, if you will. Okay, so he is, he won the New York Democratic mayoral primary, and he is the child of Miraner, who's a famous filmmaker, specifically, her most famous film, I think, is Mississippi Massala. And he is the, his dad is like a preeminent post-colonial scholar.

So he's like a Nepo, but it's not like Maya Hawk, you know. And when people are, like he's a netbo. It's like I don't think that Miranara is like loaded probably, even though she's like a beloved filmmaker. I don't think they're even that rich, right? Not everybody in the arts. Let me blow everybody's brains right now. Not everybody makes lots and lots of money. Right, right. Like the beloved beautiful art film, you know, creator is probably not absolutely swimming in wealth, right? But after he was elected, this video, it was out before, but it hadn't really gone viral as much, but this video of Zoron came out after he was elected. It's a,

it's a rap video. I need to figure out what his alter ego name was. It was, it's very funny. And it's just like a funny video that he had made in 2019. He's wearing makeup. He's, it's, it's silly, right? It's very similar to something had actually that came out, that AOC had made in college and everybody kind of tried to. to smear her for, but actually it was just like a fun viral video that made her more appealing. This is very similar. It's like a fun viral video that makes him more appealing. But it's really, really silly and kind of embarrassing and incredibly endearing if you like him. But it was going around and my mom sent it to me and in my head my first response was like, this is why Nepo babies are good.

And I don't know if this will make sense. And if you disagree with me, of course, feel free to push back or whatever. But I think that there is something about the security of a Nepo where they might just be like a little bit more like fuck it than other people and they might take they might just like make more interesting chances yeah make make interesting choices or take risks I'm not saying this is not like the conversation we're holding and it was like nepo babies are good I'm not saying but like they have more opportunities and it is like about what they do with the opportunities like the fact that right you know technically Carrie Fisher did take a huge chance at any Anybody that knows anything about Star Wars knows that it was a huge chance to take. Yes. It wasn't something that everyone's like, oh, we're going to hit this out of the park. Everyone's like, Cowboys, Ed in Space. What?

I don't know talking about it. You know, it's like, right? And I think, totally. Totally. And I think, although she also does say in the book that they all knew once they were making it, that it was going to be huge, which is interesting. Yes. But it's all, and like I said, I don't know if this all makes sense.

I've just been thinking about it with Zoran and then reading Carrie's I was like, I think that there's something about with a nepo who happens to be a very creative and brilliant person, which is not true of all nepo's, but if you have a nepo who is a creative person, then there is something about the safety net that comes with being a nepo, just like any human being, when you have a safety net, you can reach higher. Anyone that comes for money. Exactly. You have you have more of a chance because you can jump. You're right. And those of us that have no net, it's very scary.

Yes. If you don't have a safety net, you're in survival mode all the time and you're making choices based on a certain calculation of risk. And if you do have a safety net, then you're able to make different choices because you're not constantly in survival mode. And I'm not saying this is good. I'm not. Obviously, the whole thing of Zoron is that wealth inequality is bad.

And everybody should have a safety net. And safety net should not be dependent on who your parents are. obviously. It's just interesting to look at with Carrie Fisher because I think in a way the fact that she, it's like you cannot separate Carrie Fisher's personality, her insight, her life experience. You really can't separate it from the way she grew up, right? Like she is so a product, including her like not give a fuckness, I think is a product of coming up in this extremely bizarre industry. And I think that coming up in the industry hurt her and was very hard for her. And she says she did not have a normal life and she would watch sitcoms on TV and think that that was

weird and that what her life was normal and she had no framework, no lens and she, it was a experience of loss in many ways. And I think that it is also what made her who she is, which is this incredible person, right? And so I just think in a way, I guess I'm just trying to kind of complicate the framing of like Nepos have everything handed to them and they're and they don't deserve it, which often is true. but perhaps it can also be like a what are you doing with what you have been born with with what you're given and what could it what is it afford it like what chances are you taking with it what risks are you doing how are you thinking of others and i think that carrie fisher is another example of somebody who like really was trying to i mean she a lot of her life she was in survival

mode because of her substance use problems but i think that as she like what at what she like leveled out she was really trying to she wasn't just trying to make her own career she was trying to like offer something to the world you know right right and she wanted like she really wanted to make something and I did pull this I pulled this quote I think it's a very funny way in which to say it if my life wasn't funny it would just be true and that's unacceptable yes and because I think that looking back at everything with that wink of of like well you know I was having a time I mean, you know, she's married to Paul Simon. I didn't even realize that.

At the top of his fame. Yes. You know, like, that's insane that, like, he's writing these huge songs for her. And the way in which she talks about their relationship, it wasn't that she was, like, that's why it's such an interesting perspective. She wasn't talking about as if, like, I'm in a relationship with Paul Simon. She didn't have him up on a pedestal. Not at all. And I think that that is a way in which that a nepo, like that is like a positive side of a nepo of like being in a relationship and like that to that caliber.

Because like we all think of like the Beyonce and Jay Z's. And like I assume that their marriage is nothing like my marriage. And I'm, I would assume I'm assuming incorrectly. Right. That it's a very different portrait of what a. marriage looks like of what a partnership is. And while that might be true for some people, it's probably not true. Like, you know, I will say like word on the street that like Kirsten Dunst and Jesse Plemons are like just a really good family and very active in their kids' lives and like

live in this neighborhood. Yeah. And that I look at them and I'm like, oh, I bet they have just like a marriage. Yeah. But you think of like Carrie Fisher. and Paul Simon and she's just talking about him. Yeah, they're fighting. They're screaming at each other. Screaming at each other. But also he's so nice that he like doesn't even, he's not even really like that good at fighting,

but they're good at fighting with each other. But right, like I think that what you're saying is also like, it's she doesn't have him up on a pedestal. And in fact, like from her perspective where everybody in her world is famous, she just sees the humanity and the flaws and everybody, right? And so yeah, it is a really, And even when she taught, again, she's so funny, the part where she talks about the Carrie Grant thing, she says, at a certain point in my early 20s, my mother started to become worried about my obviously ever increasing drug ingestion. So she did what any concerned parent would do. She called Carrie Graham. Like, it's just like she lives in this opposite world, right? And so, again, I think the interrogation of like what being in Nepo isn't like should they exist because obviously like rich people are going to have kids and famous people are going to have kids. But it's, it's, I don't know. it's just recognizing it does exist.

What does it mean? What does it do? When is it bad and when is it good? Like, you know, and so I think she is a really fascinating example of like her life and fame hurt her. I think she wouldn't, I don't know. I don't know. I actually spent a lot of the portion of this book wondering about the relationship

between her mental health and her mental illness and some of her traumatic experiences. She says overall she feels like she has. a pretty good childhood, despite it being so weird and so different and so abnormal. But also she did have trauma and it was hard and, you know, bad dad and lots of stuff. But she certainly doesn't talk about like her struggle with sobriety and substance use as like a result of her being famous. She talks about it in connection with her mental illness and she doesn't talk about her mental illness in connection with her family situation. You know what I mean? Right. She's not blaming.

Right. It's not, this is, what's so beautiful is listening to her describe all of this. I, as someone that's like 15 years, obviously I can't keep comparing myself. I'm only comparing myself because of like the bipolar, like, of course. The place of like therapy and what you have to work on. Yeah. like really like so like I'm trying to imagine where my brain could be 15 years from now and that's how I'm seeing her perspective from this book totally and I think that like her coming to

terms with talking about her choices and talking about the mental health aspect of her choices and being aware of the fact that like that was at play. while making those decisions, I just didn't know it yet. Yes. And almost the forgiveness that comes with that in the way that she talks about it. This quote, that she has so much empathy and so much. Yes. Like, yes, the way she talks about people struggling with mental health is so beautiful.

I'm sorry, I'm quote machine over here, but this is. I love it, please. This one is so beautiful. One of the things that baffles me, and there are quite a few, is how there can be so much lingering stigma with regard to mental illness, specifically bipolar disorder. In my opinion, living with manic depression takes a tremendous amount of balls, not unlike a tour of Afghanistan, though the bombs and bullets in this case come from the inside. At times, being bipolar can be an all-consuming challenge, requiring a lot of stamina and even more courage. So if you're living

with this illness and functioning at all, it's something to be proud of, not ashamed of. They should issue medals along with the steady stream of medication. I'm not crying. And it's beautiful. It's so beautiful. I couldn't read the quote because I cried so much. And that's why it was like, this book is sad, but like in a very specific way that I feel like probably wouldn't make just anybody crying.

Yeah. I think this is a, the other reason I thought about you is I was like, oh, there's going to be another triggering one for Jackie for a different reason. But like in a beautiful way, in such a way that I've never felt that part of me validated in any media I've ever consumed. Totally. And, you know, I also spent some time feeling frustrated with how I remember hearing about Carrie Fisher, which is she's a drunk, she's a drug user, she's crazy.

She's one of those famous people who went crazy. And I spent a lot of this book being so upset and so angry that that was the picture I got from her from headlines. Because there is no amount of struggling that she went through, or whether it was with substance use or mental illness or just the, you know, whatever other choices she made in her adulthood that doesn't deserve like dignity and respect, you know, like she's a brilliant woman. And the fact that she was just painted is this like kind of, oh, she was Princess Leia and then she became a drunk. is like such a profound disservice to who she was as a person. Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. And that's why I want to thank everybody in our Patreon that encourage us to listen to this because now I'm like, oh, oh, I'm obsessed. Now I kind of want to rip through the rest of her books because it was like, okay, I want to listen to everything this woman has ever said.

Yes. Yes, 100%. Zora and Mamdani's rap name, by the way, was Young Cardam. Young Cardam. Yes, I'm going to read postcards from The Edge. I want to read everything she wrote. I want to go back and listen to the Paul Simon songs that are about her. What are the lines from Graceland?

She woke up and told me she's gone as if I didn't know that, as if I didn't know my own bed. That's about her. You do. That's about Carrie Fisher. Oh, my God. I had such a thing for Paul Simon. Oh, yeah. Oh, when I got to the, as if it was happening in real time, I'll never forget when I was like,

loving Simon and Garfunkel such a huge. And then I found out when I was like 20 about everything that happened to Simon and Garfunkel because, you know, it was just the information wasn't as readily available back then. And it was more like I was listening to like discovering Simon and Garfunkel when I was like listening to records, you know what I mean? Yeah. And like finding all of that section of it. And I know some people grow up with it, but I didn't.

And then finding out what happened, and I chose Paul Simon. Yeah. Even though I never gave Art Garfunkel the second, I was like, I'll never. Even though I'm pretty sure they were both assholes. But I think that Paul Simon might have been the bigger one. Well, and it's also so fun the way that she writes about him because she's like, you know, we were fighting. we were screaming, we were back on and off, et cetera. But then also, like, at one point when she's talking about the songs that he wrote about

her, she's describing one of the songs is very beautiful. And then she just has an aside where she says, well, I mean, all of his songs are very beautiful. And it's such a touching way to talk about an ex. I mean, the ex is Paul Simon, but still it was such a beautiful way of being like this person who, you know, I had this intense relationship with that didn't end well. But, like, all of his songs are beautiful. It was just such a like one line that that really stayed with me.

Yes, you are so, because she didn't, I feel burn, she wasn't writing this to burn bridges. Not at all. Even in like the way that like she talks about her mom, which is obviously so complicated and she must have such complicated feelings. And she must have had a very interesting relationship with her. Yeah. the fact that she was still able to live next door to her, knowing that, like, you know, she never outright says that, like, and my mom wasn't protecting me from anything.

Right, right, right. And she doesn't even, she's not blaming her. And I am so, I want to hear so much more about the journey through the process of electroshock therapy. And I know that that is such like an invasion. of a space that I'm sure is not for anyone to ever find out about. But like she just speaks with such a clarity that is impressive. So impressive.

And especially right. I think her relationship with her mom was complicated for many reasons, one of which was that her mom was mostly concerned about her own career through most of her life and I think slightly less interested in parenting, although it sounds like she was a present and loving mother when she was present. Yeah, right. But her career was always, you know, always kind of front and center. But then also when it comes to Carrie having a hard time, Debbie Reynolds was of this generation where she didn't know how to talk about any of that.

Even when Carrie learns how to cook, Debbie Reynolds is like, we don't cook, dear. Why, darling? But then, yeah, when it comes to the substance use and the mental illness, I think Debbie Reynolds has no idea, no idea what to do. No idea how to support. Well, you think back then, too, they were like they were given uppers and, you know, sidewinders and you know next Tuesdayers and they were just given whatever and that was really in the that was back when I mean doctors were just prescribing speed right you know and that's what she came from so I love it that like of all the things it's like the acid though I mean carry with the

acid you can't be doing acid all the time which I do find as someone that has had many stints with lots of acid, I do understand. You know, it can kind of jumble up the brains a little bit. My friend who used to do a lot of acid, I asked him once about the, you know, the folk saying that if you do acid seven times, you're legally insane. And his response was, that's what I, they used to, this was like something people would say.

If you do acid seven times, you're legally insane. But I said this to my friend. And his response was, here's the thing. There's no legal definition of insanity, which I, I think there is. I think there is. I think there literally legally is. It was also, I was in college and I was like, yeah, good point.

Yeah. Whoa. Yeah. Oh, brand broken. But also I think that that thing that you do it asked seven times you're legally insane, obviously is made up. Yeah.

Yeah. I like that you said it and I took it as if I'm like, am I crazy? Am I legally insane? I guess I'm crazy. After we spent the last 45 minutes of talking about how. you do have mental illness, but I'm not. It doesn't mean you're legally insane, whatever that means. I don't know if there's a legal.

I think you can be found in a court of law to have been insane. So I guess that is legal insanity. But we're going to have to find that out in a different book. Insanity typically refers to a mental disease or defect that renders a person incapable of understanding the nature or wrongfulness of their actions at the time of committing a crime. Ah, there you go. There is a legal definition of insanity. So I'm going to have to call my friend and tell him he was wrong.

So go back in time and drop that line, bitch. Also, he was on acid at the time I asked him. Of course he was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also, again, that if I'm not saying that you were on acid, but if you were, would also, that also, then you're just like, we are connecting in a different plane. And I do get, because like you get the vibe of what he's saying. Oh, yeah. No, truly cartoonishly stoner conversation.

Yeah, there is no legal definition of insanity. Whoa. You're so right. I hope that you guys enjoyed listening to us really just in general commits about this book that we both really enjoyed. And I didn't expect to cry today, but here we are. I did and I hope that that doesn't make you sad. It's a beautiful book. This is like, it's really not sad.

It's really inspiring and beautiful and like it's check it out. Check it out. You got, this is when you got to read. Honestly, of all the ones we've read, this is my highest recommendation to read. Yeah, this is the one to read. Julia Fox would come in at a number two, but this is probably should have said that up top, I guess. I should have just said that out the gate of like, really you don't need to listen. to this. You should have just...

But you know what, guys? You hung out with us. Thanks for hanging out with us. I got to cry. Thank you for being with me while I cry. Yeah, and, you know, sometimes we say interesting things. I don't know if what I said about Nepo Babies makes sense. And if it doesn't, you can yell at me. I'll be ready. But, you know, this is a place where we can take risks

and explore our thoughts. Yes. Yes. Thank you. Thank you all for letting us be vulnerable here on our space of celebrities. And I love you, MJ. I love you, everyone in the Patreon. I hope you're having a beautiful week.

And we're going to get through the summer and the darkness is going to come back soon. So don't worry. Is that how we end it? Is that how we're ending it? All right. The darkness is going to come back soon. She said, reassuringly. All right.

I'm not Carrie Fisher. It's fine. I'm not. I'm not at all. I could never be. And I could only wish to be a portion of who she is. Well, you've also got a brilliant mind. And you're not an EPO.

Thank you. Oh, my God. Not even for a second. Not even. There's no net. And yet she puts regardless. All right. Let's sing the song.

Just take a look. It's in a book. It's celebrities. Celebrity. Celebrity. Celebrity. Peace.