Page 7 - Pop History: Cher Pt. II

Episode Date: February 2, 2021

We follow Cher as she rises like a phoenix from the ashes.Want even more Page 7? Support us on Patreon! Patreon.com/page7podcastKevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0 Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes of Page 7 ad-free.Start a free trial now on Apple Podcasts or by visiting siriusxm.com/podcastsplus. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

I want to sing it, but you sing it. Whatever. If I could die. Don't do it. It's me the horny sailor. How dare you? No, you know what I really want to sing. We get coming back.

Ooh, air piano. Two angels who've been rescued. I can't hit her notes in it, okay? Mermaids, we're some mermaids, and we're trying to move to different towns in the state of Massachusetts. I'm going to date a dad. Daddy down. Oh, there's a lot of daddies.

If there is one thing that all of these insane movies have in common, they got great daddies in there. I will tell you what. Some are creepy daddies. Some are tight daddies. Some are leather daddies. Just depends on which Cher movie we're talking about. Yes, we are in the middle of Cher's career.

She has been left devastated by sunny, bitchy bono. but she turns around that upset and becomes an Oscar winning actress instead. But then it all falls apart again. So we're in the meat of the share sandwich. And yeah, we're here to share it with you. That's right. That was good. That was good.

It's me. It's Jackie. It's Natalie. And this is an interesting turn in her whole tale because she's technically very successful right now. with a long running Vegas show. She's touring all around. And she, you know, she could kind of just be like so many other people at her age who became successful when she was successful. She could kind of just live off of that whole section of her career from the 60s and the 70s.

But instead, she's like, I'm not fulfilled. And I also have never had control over my career. And I want to feel what that's like. So I actually want to take a whole turn here. Did I read in your notes, Holden, that she was offered a residency in Vegas for $300,000 a week in 1979? She was earning $300,000 a week. I actually just found this really great. I should have, it was, I forget where I got this interview from.

It was an awesome interview. And the guy asked her about that. He was just like, you're making $300,000 a week because she alluded to the fact that she wasn't making quite enough money. And, but she said that that was her, that was her, like, grand total. also she hated being up there. So she hired like a ton of people to do the stage show with her, like dancers and stuff. She had all these like, that was like her overhead and then she had a lot of cost. So I don't know what she made at the end of the day, but still.

You know what? Yeah, I'm sure she was making quite a lot. That actually makes a lot of sense because in the last episode, if you remember, she was talking about how she used to sing through Sunny. She does have a lot of stage fright. She is a fairly shy person. So at this time period, she's using that money to populate everything around her to help her feel like she is not just share alone because she wasn't ready to be share alone, even though obviously she was. And, you know, all good, that's a guvah all the way. I think she deserves it.

That's just an insane amount of money in the night in 1979. Yeah. Yeah, $300,000 weeks crazy. I don't know how much this show costs. But again, I think it's less about the money. And more about the fact that she was doing the same. She wasn't fulfilled, Natalie. Yeah, she was doing the same show every night.

And it just wasn't her. It just wasn't her. Fulfilled with cash. I also read a couple interviews about her talking about how she never really wanted to be the same mother that she had, where she was like going from place to place all the time. And then she found herself as a single mother of two kids. And that's something that we will revisit, obviously, during mermaids, but that she was the one also bringing her kids with her everywhere,

but she wanted to make sure that they were always with her. So she was struggling with this as well, as well as trying to find herself. So she tried to find herself by also creating a very different album than anything she had ever made before, which was Black Rose. Now, I enjoy. Boy, Black Rose, but Black Rose, Cher's not even on the cover of because she was trying to distance herself. She wanted Black Rose to be a group effort rather than just share doing rock and roll.

I love that she is drawing things. I think it's great. Not a huge fan of that virgin. of her. It's an interesting turn. Again, I keep saying it's interesting turn, but she had just done, by the way, we didn't mention, I don't think, in the last episode, she did just on a disco album with Take Me Home. Which is great. I think that's so fun. Yeah, that becomes super popular. But then, I think, but this, we mentioned this in the first episode, Sunny held her back from making a rock album. And I think that there was this lost rock album that was in her back, back in the days of, you know,

Led Zeppelin and, and, um, Jefferson Airplane and all that kind of stuff. And then she, She's always playing catch up trying to have this hit rock album and always felt like it's because they, the critics don't want me as the face of a rock group. So that's why Black Rose has like scrubbed all sign of her, but you can obviously, it's her vocals and everything. I'm just going to go out and say that it's, I think she's trying to do like a heart thing with like the super belty, you know, female power ballad kind of stuff. and I just, it doesn't, it feels disingenuous to me. I don't think that's where she. But that's exactly what she wanted. Yeah, and you know that, you know that, is what you wanted.

That disco album is so fun. Did you see like the roller skating song video? I want that outfit right now. I want to be wearing it. She's great in that. And I want truckers to just be slowly driving behind me all the time while I roller skate. I feel like she finally finds this balance between pop and rock and roll with her guest. F-N albums that we're going to get to in just a little bit.

But I think that is the perfect little sweet spot. But I do love that she takes these swings. Definitely. I mean, that's kind of the whole idea. She was just trying something out. I mean, even with Black Rose, you know, we were just talking about the $300,000 a week in 1979, but Black Rose was playing gigs at really small night clubs. Because she wanted to get that experience.

And I feel like she just wanted to try it. And I say gufaha, which I do think she comes into her own later on as she gets more control of herself and what she wants. Yeah, figures it out. Yeah, and at this point in time, she was dating the guitarist Les Dudik in the band. And so I feel like in my brain, she was just having a rock and roll experience, which I love. to the Alman Brothers duet album. Like, I think she fell in love with this guy. They started making music together.

Dudec, by the way, had played with Steve Miller band, Stevie Nix, the Alman Brothers. They put this group together. And she is also trying to reinvent her image a bit here. She cuts her hair to try to get more of a punk rock look going on. I think it looks really cute on her. I like it.

And, but of course, it is a commercial and critical failure. Cher said, The Critics Pandas, and they didn't attack the record. They attacked me. It was like, how dare Cher sing rock and roll?

And I do kind of agree with Natalie, like I don't think it's like it feels, it just feels a little too like just a mirror image of a lot of what was going on at the time. Like they were trying to sound like Blondie, which I do feel it is a lesser than version of Blondie. But I guess in reading through all this stuff, in my brain, you're right, it is not the best album. It's certainly not her best album. But I just really appreciate the fact that she tried something. Same. Same zies. And nothing ever she's ever put out, I feel like

sounds bad. It's just literally like what is moving the needle and what just doesn't quite move the needle because she's always trying to stay with, she's very, in a lot of ways she's like a better Madonna, right? She's always staying with the times. Please tell her that.

They're huge rift. You know what I agree with this? Open shade between them. Because they do the same thing. Like they try to keep with the times and they constantly reinvent themselves and they try to stay with the current zeitgeist of what's popular in music and film

and everything else. Share over Madonna any day. But Cher's attempts seem at least a little more honest and genuine and a little better, I think, especially as Madonna's career went on. I think she was better at it earlier on her career. I can't believe I'm furthering this feud between me and Madonna, but I just can't help it.

So, yes, the one saving grace, though, was during this time she had a duet with meatloaf called Dead Ringer for Love, which did do well in the UK singles chart, has since been considered a fantastic rock duet. So she does prove that she can do it, just not quite with Black Rose. Another low period for her is around this time. Now I'm just being born. Cheras had four careers, I believe, by this point.

Cher is yet again finding herself at a crossroads as her album sales are gradually decreasing and her commercial single success is drying up. So she started looking for a new, new, new, new, new, new, new reinvention. Cher said, I was making a fortune on the road, but I was dying inside. Everyone kept saying, Share, there are people who would give anything to have standing room only at Caesar's Palace. It would be the pinnacle of their careers. And I kept saying, yes, I should be satisfied, but I wasn't satisfied. Staying in Vegas was very easy because there was so much money involved, and you didn't need a brain to do the work. And it wasn't horrible. I didn't really like what I was doing.

And I thought, if I don't change now, it's always going to be this way. This is going to be. be it for me. So I just said, oh, fuck it. If I can't be the actress because I'm a singer, I just won't be a singer. And we'll see what happens. Love it. Which I think is badass. Love it. She didn't want to be lost the way some other, and she does reference other singers at the time that went through because from the 60s, obviously, to the late 80s, a lot had changed. And she didn't want to be lost in the times. So again, just constantly choosing new things, whether she's good at it or not, which leads her to acting and taking lessons with Lee Strasbourg, which is huge.

She jumped right in. She essentially was just like, okay, want to be a huge actress now and did it. I think we've mentioned Strasbourg in episodes previous. He founded the actor's studio. He's known as the father of method acting in America. and again this is the year I'm being born I still probably haven't been born yet when she moves to New York

drops the singing thing entirely and just focuses and I think in the right way she didn't go to Hollywood and try to be con get the leading part in some big role she went she goes to Broadway baby yeah she goes and does a play and I think doing a play forces you to really

hone in on your acting chops is you're doing the same role night after night after night and it really forces you to do the analysis work tap into it and then she can go off to Hollywood and bang out these great parts. Do you think while she was doing that, she felt one day she just felt a shudder go through

her body? She's like, there's a man being born right now. He's being, he's cooking. And I can feel its essence coming out. A little hospital in Charlotte, North Carolina. I mean, I would say that she did come back to the five and dime Jimmy Dean, Jimmy for me. I would say it.

Is it true? I don't know, but either way. Come back to the five and dime, Jimmy Dean. Jimmy Dean is, especially as someone who is in theater school, who always needed good, meaty monologues and or scenes. I have read Come Back to the Five and Dime Jimmy Dean, Jimmy Dean multiple times. I've seen it done multiple times. And you can also see Robert Altman's version, because as we will talk about it, they take it from Broadway, put it on the big screen. and it is so, such a personal performance.

Karen Black is insane in it. Shared has this monologue where she talks about, which I mean, she keeps saying titty, so I feel like it should take you out, but she's so intense in it that she does, the beginning part of the monologue, looking at the back of the house, and she's just off in her own land

talking about how she had to have her breasts removed, because of cancer and how her marriage falls apart because of it. And it is, it's such an upsetting. And yet, like, the colloquialisms are so small town as well, but it is still such an elevated monologue for her to do. I really, really enjoy it. You can watch Olive come back to the Five and Dime Jimmy Dean, Jimmy Dean. I will let you know, it is a play, though.

Somebody's theater degree is showing. Somebody's theater degree is showing, but you can watch it all on YouTube, and it's amazing, she's amazing in it. And also, by the way, at this time when Altman puts her in the Broadway stage production and then later the film, he's already made a big mark

with his film's MASH and The Long Goodbye, which are phenomenal. So it's interesting, too, that he went to Broadway and did this directing stint, and then went back to film, of course. And Cher said, without Bob, referring to Robert Altman,

I would have never had a film career. Everyone told him not to cast me. I'm convinced that Bob was the only one who was brave enough to do it. And this comes up time and time again. Don't cash share. Don't put in share. But I'll have you know. She fucking makes it work.

Yes, she does. And it's so cool to watch. I've never actually sat and watched back to back. I never realized that all of shares, especially her big movies, were either in the same year or just like a year. fluctuation around it. And all of her different characters are so distinct.

So good. And she's such a strong actress. She really is. Really good with the close-up. The close-up loves her. She is a very, what I figure, not the word, the word isn't slight, but she's,

um, subtle? Subtle. Yes, it's the subtlety of her acting that when you go from seeing share, you know, in an offensive costume singing half breed to watching her in Silkwood. I'm like, how is this the same person? It's true. She's so vulnerable on camera, so genuine.

I love mask. I was making a lot of jokes about it leading up to this episode because it is kind of crazy, the makeup that's on Eric Stoltz, but it's based on a true story anyway. But it's a kid who has a genetic disease, degenerative disease, where his face looks crazy. Share plays his mom. It's impossible to find now, apparently, but she plays a biker mom with Sam Elliott as her. Oh, yeah, we'll get into that.

Oh, we'll talk. Okay, we're going to talk about it. Oh, yeah, we go get into that. Honestly, mask is coming up next, but I do, we have to give Silkwood it's due first. Oh, no, yeah, we've got, yeah, no, but also. Silkwood comes right before Mass. But back to come back to the Five and Dime Jimmy Dean, Jimmy Dean. She, no, I'm taking it all the way back.

I'm maintaining her first, so this is her first big, I mean, you know, Obviously, we talked about last episode, Tracity, and she did the other one with Sunny Bono, which were both kind of failures. But come back to the Five and Dime, Jimmy Dean, Jimmy Dean earned her her first Golden Globe nomination for best actress in a supporting role. So immediately, first, like, first big one out, she's already on the, like, everyone's got eyes on her for what she's about to become. And she gets cast in Mike Nichols directed film. Silkwood alongside Merrill Streep's. She plays Merrill Streep's lesbian roommate, and this earns her first Oscar nomination

and cements a lifelong friendship with Streep. I love their friendship. I have a little quote from Merrill Streep, but it's essentially like, Share tells it what it is. Merrill's a lot more reserved. They perfectly balance each other out, and Streep's in the movie.

That is not what it is at all. Oh, that's fun. It is so cool. cool. I honestly, I had no idea. I'd never seen Silkwood before. I didn't know anything about it. And Merrill Street plays a, she's a whistleblower in a nuclear, I believe it's a nuclear plant, and talks about the plutonium levels that have been affecting everyone that works at the plant. And you know what? I thought that this was going to be something that happened in the middle of the movie. And yes, I'm about to spoil it for you, but I'm not even spoiling it because it says it in the description of the movie.

is that they kill Meryl Streep because she's the whistleblower. And Cher plays her very understated roommate who is just a tomboy that also works at the plant with her. And also, my God, Meryl Streep is banging Kurt Russell, young Kurt Russell in the movie, Mamma Mia. But it is, and Craig D. Nelson's in it, and he's also a bit of a creep. But it's so sad because the first time they saw the trailer, everyone was talking about how this is going to be the movie for Cher. This is Cher's movie. It's definitely one of her best performances. Every review of the movie says it about her.

But when she was watching the trailer, so the trailer first played before a Tom Cruise film in a Westwood theater. and the second that it started to play, everyone in the theater started to laugh when her name came on screen. Rude. And little did they know that Cher was in the back with her sister Georgian and her manager. Georgian burst into tears.

The manager cried. Cher said, I bit the inside of my cheek and I detached to myself from the laughter. On the inside, she says she cracked and broke into a million pieces, but she refused to show it. and everyone ate their fucking words after the movie came out. That's for damn sure.

I mean, it must be, it should be reiterated at this point, like how hard it was for her to pull herself out of the reputation she had at that point, which was essentially as a bunch line with Sunny and Sherr. Sunny and Sherr became like the most parodied, mocked, like celebrity entertainment thing of that age. I mean, so it was goofy. It was goofy as hell. And, yeah, that is incredible that she was able to pull herself. away from that image.

And also just to not be looked at as only a comedic TV entertainer, but also as a serious actress, that's a difficult transition. We all, I think, understand that. She even had said this in an interview afterwards. She's like, remember, people hated us here not that long ago. Sunny and I had to go to Europe to become famous. We influenced a generation, and it's like, what more do you want? Actors don't take me that seriously.

so I always thought I'm not an actor, I'm not a singer, I'm somewhere in between. And I've always felt like an outsider. So it doesn't bother me anymore. I like that status truthfully. Hell yeah, it's way better. This is when it starts, though, of her, this is when she starts getting the reputation for being a bitch. And you know what? She is such a great example of, especially in the late 80s when all this stuff really started

that immediately labeled a bitch, difficult to work with, because, she wanted what she wanted, and she took care of herself. So before, and I think that really starts with mask, but before we get there, I just wanted to do this quote from Merrill Streep about their friendship and tie up the silkwood part of everything. Streep said, we hung out and drank plum wine, ew, after work. Shear was really fun. I was smitten by her openness, both as an actress and as a person.

It's incredibly disarming. You're a little worried for her, like, are you sure you want to be telling me all this? Her lack of inhibition is part of what endeared her to the national audience on the Sunny and Cher Comedy Hour. That's where I first saw her. Most people on TV had a little TV veneer back then, a performing gloss. But her gloss was not only her beauty, but how easily she wore it and dismissed it. Like, no big deal. For a showgirl, there's not a phony bone in her body.

What you see is what you get. And when she dresses up and gets gorgeous, you get a whole lot. Damn straight. And Silkwood gave Cher her first academy. Academy Award nomination for her best supporting actress, and she won the Golden Globe for her performance. In her acceptance speech at the Globes, she jabbed the Hollywood moguls who wouldn't give her a chance before Altman came calling. Evidence that no matter the doubt, Cher had an accepting Silkwood, she knew how to trumpet her own worth. And this is also, again, the adorable relationship between Meryl Streep and Cher.

even Cher says about Merrill Streep, I have to tell you something. She is funny. And I don't know that she gets to show that side all that often, but she's wicked funny, and she will just do anything for a lark. She's got a really great serious side, but she's got this really hysterical side, too. And you will see this again when, spoiler alert, when Cher wins the Oscar, and she's up against Merrill Street. And when you watch a video of when Cher wins the Oscar, Merrill Street, jumps up and is so excited for her, just like immediately runs over and gives her a kiss.

And I love that. That's very cute. Cher has some great moments with Carol Burnett because, you know, they can't. She was on Carol Burnett, right? Yes. And then she had her own variety show, so there's some really great moments with them. And Cher's got really good timing.

And she seems to have great relationships with really strong, female people. You know, female people. And I really like that about female people is that they can really get together and it's like, man, mean, but female person. Yeah. And we will definitely talk about that during mask because

I will say the director openly talks about how much he doesn't like men. But how could you not like Sam Elliott? I'm sorry, what were you saying? I love this quote from Cher just saying until I became an actress, I never felt like an artist. I felt like I never felt like I was worthwhile. I always knew that there was something not right, that I was, I was famous, but it wasn't right. And so it's like her super coming into her own here, especially with Mask, her first

successful film with her in a leading role directed by Peter Bogdanovich in 1985, and they have a difficult time of it. I actually, and I think Jackie, you have some more stuff on this as well, but she claimed in the interview I just was reading that Bogdanovich wanted to fuck her. So this is, I think we may have been reading the same interview because I love this. Mask is really when it comes out that she is difficult to work with. And Bogdanovish comes out and he says, who's the director,

he says, well, she didn't trust anybody, particularly men. She doesn't like men. That's why she's named Cher. She dropped her father's name. Oh, shut up. So Keynesian it is. And then he goes on. to say, she can't act.

She won best actress at Cannes because I shot her very well. And she can't sustain the scene. Ew, I hate him. She couldn't do what Tatum O'Neill did in Paper Moon. She'd start off in the right direction, but she'd go off wrong somehow very quickly. So I shot a lot of close-ups of her because she's very good in close-ups.

Her eyes have the sadness of the world. You get to know her. You find out it's self-pity, but still it translates well in movies. God damn, dude. So what does she say in response? Dude. What does she say in response?

She goes, I have been difficult. But I'm not a difficult actress. I'm not a difficult person. I really enjoy working with people. And if you tell me to do something that I can't do, something happens and I can't do it. I just can't do it. Not that I won't try other things,

but if you ask me to do something that I don't believe in, then you might as well fire me, because I don't do what I don't. believe in. That's why I don't take lots of movies. It's like Peter Bogdanovich. I understood what Peter wanted and I understood why he was angry and a lot

of it had to do with the fact that I wouldn't fuck him, okay? Yes, I love that. Did you tell that there's the egg salad sandwich story or whatever? Oh my God. She was like it was 7.30 in the morning and we're sitting and he's eating an egg sandwich and he just looks up and he's like

what did he say he was like I'm not, I don't want to fuck you or something like. Like out of the blue? She's like, uh-huh, okay. Okay, sure. Natalie, you saw, you watched Mass recently and clearly love it as you were going into your gush earlier for it.

I wanted to come back to that and ask you, what do you love about Mass? She is so... Is it Sam Elliott? She's gesticulating. Dyrating and grinding. Grabbing, of course, her breasts. I get it.

He is. very saucy. Sam Elliott is very saucy in it. Also, Laura Dern is in it. The cast is crazy. But Cher plays the mother of this guy who has this genetic disease and she's like a biker and she's so funny and dark and like you were saying, the subtlety of her performance in it. You just buy her in this part. It's that I think this movie could have gone off the, the, the, off the rails really easily because it's like, you have to believe Eric Stoltz in this face makeup.

Um, that's really insane. Yeah, amazing. And Cher grounded that in a way that makes it an actually serious, sad movie, but also really good and entertaining and like, there's just a,

there's a humanist to her in that part that is, I think somebody else in that role could have really fucked the movie up. So I've got a little, a little quote to back that up real quick. Um, she did bring her own experience the role as a mother. She said, my son was born tongue tied. And I watched them give him this operation.

And they asked me to leave the room. And I said, you haven't got a snowflakes chance in hell. If you're going to cut his tongue apart, I'm going to stand here and watch it. And I remember thinking while I was watching, oh, I wish this didn't have to happen to him. And I know that that's what Ricky's mother thought about her child. Oh, I wish this didn't have to happen to him. And yet, she made the best out of it. And she made him a great human being, which I thought is a kid.

Killer quote to sum up, I think, why exactly you feel the way you feel about her part. I also feel really bad because this specific movie harkens back to the Blockbuster Days for me. Of how many times we would hold it up and be like, mask night? I want to watch the mask. And I've only ever made jokes about this movie because of the cover of the VHS that we used to make jokes about at Blockbuster. So I always thought that it was a horrible movie. and it's not. No.

It's a very good movie. You can't get it anywhere. You can't find it. So let's talk about that really quick because I feel like we're going to inspire people to watch all these movies. And I will say, I had to watch Mermaids Last Night, which we'll get to it a little bit on voodoo. Natalie had to watch it in, a mask in segments. I had to watch Silkwood in a really tiny part of a YouTube screen that was, I had to make it really, really big so you could really not see their, faces too much, but...

Are we gonna talk about Moonstruck or is the same time period? Oh, hell yeah, we're talking about Moonstruck. Because that actually is on YouTube in full form, like through YouTube movies, so it's like watchable. Yes. And, oh, you know what I have to say quickly about that?

Which I was shocked by. Side note. I've never been sexually attracted to Nicholas Cage. But in that movie, I haven't seen that movie since I was a kid and I was like, oh yeah. Is Nicholas Is Kage hot in this movie? Yeah.

She's a weirdo. I love him in that movie. But just real quick about Mask. So this is, I want to say this now because if you're wondering why we haven't brought up the amazingly talented work

that Bob Mackie does with Cher, I'm waiting for next episode. I want to get into all because when Cher goes to the Academy Awards for Mask, because she didn't get a nomination, but she goes to the award show anyway. And according to her, she feels she got snubbed for the Academy Award for this is because

the reasons people gave in the press had nothing to do with her acting. The things that were blamed, they said she wasn't serious enough about acting. They said she didn't even have a last name. Or they also brought up the fact that I dated young men and I didn't dress like a serious actress. Those were the kinds of things they were saying about her. And so she shows up to the Oscars

in a, you have to look up, Share Academy Award for, and then look up mask, put it, Bob Mackey, she's got this it's barely, I don't want to say barely a dress, but it's barely a dress. And it's this feathered head dress.

Oh yeah. She looks amazing. I love that she never stopped wearing those kind of wild outfits. I love that. Yeah, dude. And Bob Mackey is the one that designed them all for her, and their relationship is beautiful. So I love it so much. You didn't, wasn't nominated, but showed up looking fabulous. I love it. So after that, she just starts pumping out more movie. She does a thriller called Suspect in 1987, and then the Blockbuster Fantasy film, The Witches of Eastwick, that same year. Yeah.

Sorry, we need to talk about suspect real quick. Because this is another, it was another big movie that she stars in with Dennis Quaid. And this really ties into everything that they were talking about in the reviews of her in Mask. And they wanted her to have a sex scene in Suspect. And she said no. She's like, I don't want, she's like, my character would not be fucking at this because she's, she's like playing this lawyer. There's another movie that was very difficult to find.

She says, I didn't even want to kiss him, but they made us do that. She said, it bothered me that a professional woman who had a lot of integrity would forget all that because of a man. I thought it was absolutely wrong, and I didn't want to do it. And she was forced to do it anyway, or else she would have been fired. And that was another one of those where she, listen to it. to a person if they don't, if they don't feel, and also it wasn't like, I don't want to do it.

It was the fact that she didn't feel her character should be doing this, that there was no reason for her to be doing it. It almost feels like they were trying to take advantage of, oh, well, she dresses sexily. She's a rock singer. We can get her to fuck somebody on camera. And she was like, no, bitch. I'll show my body if I want and I don't have to do a sex scene if I don't want to.

Yeah, she didn't, did she do, did she ever do a sex scene? I think, did she, maybe Moonstruck. Yes, but she, oh, she talks about that, but in Moonstruck, what she said is that they had a, it was so cartoonish, that she was fine with it, that it is such a ridiculous scene, that is what her character would do in that scene. And again, this all comes back to what I respect most about her, especially during this time, is that she said, no, I'm going to have total control. I was controlled by an older man

for fucking two decades of my life And she even says like I needed him I had no idea what the fuck I was doing Like this that and the other So there was some there was some benefit to that But at the end of the day afterward It was consensual unfortunately She just didn't know herself

But this is the narrative that Hollywood wrote for her Oh she's difficult Oh she doesn't want to fuck Dennis Quaid She's difficult You shouldn't be hiring her It is again that you will see Everyone knows you have to fuck Dennis Quaid to get in movies.

Which I'm fine with that. If we can create another Jack Quaid, I'm here for it. But you will see again that this is why she gets into another downfall in her celebrity is because she will not bend

to what they want her to be. And I love her for it. So here's a good example of that. And Jackie has already mandated we will be doing a Witches of East Week episodes. I have mandated. it on which is at Eastwick

but I will say I do want to give this little story out because this really applies to what she would, the bullshit she was dealing with. She, um, so George Miller, he's casting his film and he's in, and she's in talks to play Alexandra Medford. And so, uh, he

calls her up and he says, I just wanted to call and tell you that I don't want you in my movie. And Jack Nicholson and I think you're too old and you're not sexy. Which wasn't real. Jack Nicholson never said it. really enjoyed chair. We'll get into how she loves Jack in just a second.

He just wanted to tell me everything. I hate the way you walk. I hate the way you talk. I don't like the color of your hair. I don't like your eyes. I was like, okay, look, motherfucker. You didn't find me under a rock. I was nominated for an Academy Award for Silkwood,

and I got the Con Film Festival Award for Best Actress for Mask. So goodbye. Also, this was on her 40th birthday. Fuck you, dude. And before you get into this conversation with how she created the character with Jack Nicholson, I need you to know that she was initially not cast in the part that she has in the movie. She was cast as Susan Sarandon's part. And Susan Sarandon had Scher's part.

And she realized that if you, we watched the movie last night in Witches Visewick, Susan Sarandon is the more subdued character and that she's the one that opens, up. So Cher didn't want to play that. She's like, hell no, I want to be Alexandra. So Susan Sarandon came out and said, I initially was cast in Cher's part. And I didn't find out until I got to L.A. that I was actually moved to a different part. I had to learn suddenly to play the cello. And I'd never play an instrument in my life. They said they would sue me if I left. So I didn't have much choice. And she opened, she said this. And then everyone went against Cher for Susan Saran saying it. And then Susan Saran was like,

No, no, no, no, no. I'm saying this out of, I was actually very, like, inspired by her and what she did. No, no, I'm not saying it in a bad way. It was actually a really fun challenge. A cat fight. Susan's like, no, I'm saying, oh, look, the claws are coming out. She's like, no, I like her. Please, stop this.

Yes, and that's what I love is they went against all of the dumb bullshit. The booby papers. They're not booby papers, but I just like the phrase booby papers. all the booby papers out there saying that, oh, they hate each other. When they don't hate each other. Can we please call tabloids booby papers from now? Booby papers. And there's like a lot, I call them, uh, dickles.

Oh, yeah, the dickles and the booby papers. Of stuff out there, too, about, I'll just kind of summarize all this, but essentially, uh, they were referred to as the girls and by everybody, essentially, except for Jack Nicholson, who really, who really loved working with all of them and, and sharing her got along. She even said she only took that movie to work with Jack Nicholson. That's the only reason why she wanted to do it. But they had to do this which sucks, but at the same time, good for Jack, at least. Like, they quickly found out, like, we go to Jack if we need anything, and Jack fights for us and make sure everybody's happy.

And it's annoying that they had to go through him. But it is really cool that he didn't suck at least as much as everyone. Which is so funny to me because we're talking, by the way, about George Miller, who goes on to direct, Mad Max Fury Road, which is like this super pro female, like strong feminist statement. Well, maybe he, well, I'd like to think he grew as a person. Yeah, yeah, I would hope because, yeah, it's weird to read this about him as I adore his films so much. And this is, and which is Vieswick as well. It was, yeah, I mean, partly it was society's fault.

Yeah, yeah. Also, him saying all that stuff about Cher at the beginning where he's like, I don't like your eyes. I don't like your hair. Yeah. Sounds a little bit like he doth protest too much. Was this another case that she wouldn't give him a hand? I don't want to have sex with your eyes. I hate the way you walk and I hate the way your hips jut when you.

This is what I used to do to girls in high school. I'd like slap their books down. Yeah, and be like, I hate you and then run away and think about them. That's how you got Lexi. Yep. Yeah. I do wonder, since her character is such a spitfire that like, It was it possibly to see how she would react?

Maybe. Maybe. I mean, the fact that she immediately was like, look, motherfucker, you know, that is what her character would do. Obviously, it seemed to convince him, like, that reaction seemed to be convincing. Right? Maybe. Maybe. Cher, I have this really great quote on Cher on the women she likes to play, the reason why she picks the role she picks before we get into Moonstruck, which also came out in that same year.

Same fucking year. She said, I go out of my way to try and do women who are heroic people that would never make the cover of any magazine. You might find them in people or somebody might know about them. Like the woman I played in Mask was just a total loser and yet she did one thing perfectly. And that was she mothered this child that a lot of Betty Crocker, Betty Furness mothers might never have had the guts to do. I don't find playing people like myself that interesting. That's why I don't hang out too much with the A crowd or whatever. Whatever!

Whatever. She whatever them. Whatever. Let's talk about Minstruck. I love Moonstruck. I love Moonstruck. It is definitely a very bust of a jewel kind of New York Italiano movie. It is a New York Italian family, baby.

And I remember my mom showed me Moonstruck too young. And because it's one of my mom's favorite movies. I'm shocked by that. Right? Are you so surprised? Oh my God. Olympia Dukakis and Cher and a. movie and my mom loves it.

And it's part of the reason why she really, you know, remember the Jersey Shore episode. My mom always wanted me to marry a guido. And I think that she showed me that to see like, see, there's multiple different kinds of guidoes you can have. You can choose the angry

one or you can choose the sub one. And those are your options. Yeah. I love Moonstruck. It is weird when you are 10 years old and you tell your mother you have a crush on Danny Iello

because I did. I definitely was always, I never understood why Sher didn't want to be with Danny Iiello. I think it explains a lot about me a young love for old Danny Iello, but he's great at this. I know, especially with the young Nicholas Cage there. You went for the Danny, huh? Yeah, I went for the Danny. I mean, you know, Legolas

Danny I yellow, they're all the same. And I felt like this is the movie that gave me a crush in the moon. Oh, my God, when the moon it's your eye like a big. Stop making me come, Jackie. I heard the moon got a restraining order against you, Hold. Is that true? I can't.

I can go to Mars. Mars is still cool, but I cannot go to the moon. Did not go to the moon. Can I be within 10 feet of the moon. But either way. I also, Holden, I thought about you when I was talking about Moonstruck. I showed Moonstruck to Jeff for the first time. And he was like, I always thought this was just like a wrong.

Romance I would have absolutely no desire to watch. So good. It's so good. It's going back to that ideology that there are movies for boys and movies for girls, which is bullshit. Yeah, definitely. It's just such a great fucking movie. It really is. And, man, again, Cher just shines in it.

And she is really dressed down in it. And she just so, so beautiful, like, strikingly beautiful to look at. and Nicholas Cage is totally fuckable in it. I'm just going to keep saying it. Oh my God, that opera scene in the crushed velvet dress? Oh my God. Gorgeous. Nick Cage, who tried to play essentially,

he literally tried to talk like a wolf man in the beginning of shooting until they told him to stop. Because it was originally called like Something in the Wolf and he channeled the actor who played The Beast in like the live action beauty of the Beast movie. I was talking in a gravelly voice. He was trying to like be a wolf. And they were like, don't do that because that's crazy.

Don't do that, please. But it was also like a really weird film for Nicholas Cage. He really just wanted to make, like, punk avant-garde films. His agent made him do that movie. I think that's why I think he's attractive in this because he's not doing his like, I'm Nicholas Gage shit. He's like just playing a part, like a man. Yes, it's another subtle role.

And I love it to that Cher said, I read some place that I said it wasn't fun to work with Nicholas Cage, which is the truth. truth. Nicholas is a very strange actor. He works alone and you get to work alongside him, but he's very interesting to work with. He's fascinating. And I imagine that her feeling like that about him in real life really helped create the chemistry between them in the movie because she was into him, but she didn't know why. She was so drawn to him. And that is a different kind loin lust, that man alive. I think we've all had it a couple of times in our life when you're just like,

oh, and you're just like, loin is in front of you. I also love how Danny Iiello couldn't take the idea that he would, a woman would leave him for Nick Cage and like just hates the movie because she's like, no one would leave me for that guy. I'm the guy. I'm the guy's guy.

Anyways, I do want to say, man, it's just such an interesting combination of creative minds like Cher, Nick Cage, the director's Norman Juison, he has this really interesting career, he won the Academy Award for in the Heat of the Night and Fiddler on the roof. So his, his approach is so all over the place when it comes to the type

of movies he directed. Oh my God, it was written by John Patrick Shanley, who his approach is so all over the place, he also did doubt. Like, he, you know, I mean, there's just a very fast, and that's why I feel like that movie doesn't really, you know, yeah, it's ridiculous that it is looked at as

some kind of like a romance film when really or romantic comedy when it is it is all these different shades of genre it is like not it is so hard to pin down it's not slap sticky in the way that sometimes you would like the the title romcom makes me think of like people like slipping on banana peels and right it really is known this to it's like and because of the 90s right it's like the 90s solidified what the romcom was this came out before that in a time where it wasn't so put in a bottle so you have stuff like Death Becomes her, you have stuff like mermaids. You have these films that don't

don't really stay within a genre and really... The Witches of East Wing, which is another one of those where it's like, when you look it up, it says, comedy, it's not a... It's a dark comedy, but it is, I mean, there's some really upsetting scenes in Witches of East Wing. I mean, it's written by John Updike, by the way, wrote the original novel, Witches of Eastwick,

I was a big fan. I love his rabbit novels, but I mean, he's like, that's what his whole shit is, like writing about wasps having sexual infidelities with each other. Like, that's kind of his shit, right? But it's not, he doesn't write romantic comedies.

No. And I, and now working with the Norman Jews and Cher was asked if she enjoyed it. And I do wonder, because in looking up stuff about Moonstruck, there's no, I didn't read a whole lot of, like, share was so difficult to work with,

like you read about with the other movies. And I wondered why. And she said, I loved working with him. He's a very strange man, very theatrical. He's got a lot of stories. He wants to be the center of attention, but he lets you alone. He's real used to yelling, but he's not used to having someone yell back. And when you do, it becomes fun for him.

Also, I've never known a director who, if you're doing something funny in a scene, starts laughing. He laughed all the time when we were working. and I just found that to be so bizarre that he would just laugh and you'd be shooting and he's laughing and then you'd start laughing too which is so I feel's like she was a lot more comfortable

on this which goes to show and can you imagine working alongside Olympia Dukakis who was up for the Oscar for Best Supporting Actress this Moonstruck was up for Best Original Screenplay and Cher which we all know won the Oscar for Best Actress of 1987 for Moonstruck.

It is a weird, I feel like it's another one of those kind of like Denzel Washington situations where I don't think that he should have gotten an Oscar for a training day. But I feel like he deserved an Oscar though. He should have gotten an Oscar many other times. And same with Leonardo. Well, no, Leonardo Cooper. That was a good number. Scorsese, Scorsese, even though I think departed earned an Oscar.

But, you know, he should have gotten it for all these other movies. all the other things, giving you a cumulative Oscar eventually. Yeah. And Cher is so good in Moonstruck, but I do kind of wonder, like, was this Oscar for also Mask and Silkwood? Everybody's like,

oh, sorry, we called you trash before. Sorry. Yeah. And again, oh, that was the same one when Meryl Streep was up against her and was so excited that she won. And she also based her experience with Sunny Bono's family,

on the way that she interacted with the family in Moonstruck. Because he's a Sicilian. And that was going to be a flop. And ended up, of course, grossing over $80 million, won three Academy Awards. I mean, just a huge, huge. And this is what makes her, by the way, the most bankable actress of the decade

and able to get a million dollars per film. Crazy. This is within what we started this year. When did they laugh at her when her name popped? This episode, this episode we started in the beginning of the 80s. This is in 1987. What year did they laugh at her name showing up in the opening credits for, what was it, Silkwood? I think it was two or three years before it.

Isn't that incredible? And then she goes from that to being the most bangable serious actress in Hollywood in three years. That is unbelievable. Hustle! The hustle of this woman is inspiring. Kiss my fucking spandexed ass, bitch. Oh, yeah. And the smarts.

It's not just the hustle. it is also the fact that she really chose every single part specifically and did not just say yes to any scripts willy-nilly just because this name was behind it or this amount of money was behind it. And I think that that is the big thing here for her. Also, all right, now we get into the Geffen years. So we've been talking about her explosive success as an actress. You would think like, oh, yeah, that's like this time in her life. Then at the end of the 80s, she signs with Geffen Records. She releases Share. which is produced by Michael Bolton, John Bon Jovi, Desmond Child, and Richie Sambora. She finally gets that rock ballad she wanted with I Found Someone, which hits the top ten. He has this whole part of her career. I mean, the 80s were her decade, just period. Oh my God, I love that album.

She gets a bit of a rocker status around this time as well. She's got tattoos, the wild fashion, hot love affairs with young men, and let's talk about it, shall we? to talk about. Now, I also will say that Cher does say that to her, Cher, the album was her best album. It is her personal favorite. And yes, can we talk about Val? She referred to him as Val, when we kissed, I thought my head would shoot right off my body, boomer. That's all I gotta say. When I kiss, when we kissed, I thought my head would shoot right off my body. And I'm sure a load shot right out of him to be loads.

Wow. That this woman endured from these young, let's just say, studs. And by stud, I mean horses. They all have. But can we talk about, I guess we can't call him Tom Fishfucker Cruz right now because we have to refer to him as Tom. Chairfucker Cruz. Best lay of my life, Cruz.

Natalie, that makes no sense to me. That Tom Cruise was the best lay of her life. No one has ever said that. I choose to believe that that was not spoken. But I do wonder if, so she, I read into where they met. And so this was also the beginning of her rift with Madonna. she met Tom Cruise right after risky business. All right.

She met him at Madonna's wedding to Sean Penn. But where she got to know him was they were both invited to the White House because they were supporting a group that was opening the research on dyslexia. And as we talked about last episode, Cher was dyslexic. And Tom Cruise is also dyslexic. So they met and they ended up hanging out all night. Share says there was definitely a connection. I mean, must be Tom Best Lay of My Life Cruz.

But when she was at, when she asked. I will not call him that ever. I guess we have to. What do the fish have to say? I know. Let me hear from the fish. But Cher does say, but when it comes to Scientology, she says, I don't get what he does.

That whole Scientology thing, I can't understand it, so I just don't. So that must have been the beginning of him really getting into Scientology, or at least for him personally. And she couldn't fucking handle it, even though it was the best lay of her life. When was this like the late 80s? 85. They met at 85. Yeah. And so then they met again in 87.

So it was this time period. She also slammed it out with Eric Stoltz, who she of course played his mother in the film Mask. I had not said it. I have not said the name Eric Stoltz so many times in my life or read it so many times in my life this week. Is I've also, for what's the Bruiser were doing Back to the Future, who he classically played the main role for like half the shooting of the film. And then they were like, uh, fired you and then replaced it with Michael J. Fox. So I'm like, I cannot believe how much the name Eric Stoltz has happened at me this week. But yes.

Well, you wait until we do. Little Women. When we do Little Women, we're also going to be talking about Eric Sulton. Maybe I'll try and force you to do one about some kind of wonderful, because some kind of wonderful was one of my favorite movies. Got an eight-partner on Little Women just to cover all of the different... We got to. Oh, I'm going to force you at some point. Bon Jovi guitarist Richard Sambora is another one of her load lovers, as they like to be called. Loader up. Hockey player Ron Duguay. was another one of those big strong men

that she fucking yanked off so hard. He probably shot a rainbow load all over a public building. And then there's a young hot bagel bagger. The bagel maker. 18 years for junior. And she made them, she made these men shoot loads

that could put a hole through a brick wall. And he made her bagels afterwards? Yes. She talks time and time again too about she's like, Everyone gives me all this shit for dating younger men. So hypocritical. You don't give men this kind of bullshit.

But also she's like, and she was like, I wanted to date men my age, but a lot of them were just straight up to and demonated to date me. Absolutely. Or they wanted the control in the relationship. And that was not what she was willing to give. So it makes sense. Of the bagel baker, she also said, the boy that I live with now knows me better than anybody that I've ever been with. It's because I trust him more than anyone I've ever been with Because he's trustworthy and his morals are just impeccable

That's another thing that pisses me off When people just dismiss him as a bagel maker What's wrong with that? And she talks about this a lot Well I guess now is a good time to say that A little troubling she called him a boy I know he does say it the boy I love But you know sometimes I'm saying

In my brain this bagel maker is like a big Hulking Italian stallion That's covered in sweat And his shirt's just a little too tight But it's because of his muscles And he's just like, they're like rolling out the dough and rolling out the dough. And essentially, it's like a bigger, stronger version of Nick Cage in Moonstruck that I imagine her slamming next to some sort of fire place. I imagine him with his erect penis just with bagels on the penis.

Oh, I like it. We start calling him, yeah, bagel shoes, like horseshoes. And we start throwing bagels on his penis see if we can make points. I mean, apparently made good-ass bagels, according to share. And she's also just, this is a good time to bring up how much of a contentious relationship she has with the press. As we mentioned earlier, one of the things Meryl Streep loves about her is that she really has just says everything.

She leaves it all on the table. And I connect with that. I like to be that kind of person. I really just like to put it all out there. But she constantly time and time again gets misinterpreted, gets taken out of context. She really does not like journalists. Another thing she hated around this time was how much they played up the age difference. And again, it's like I say hypocrite because, no, I don't remember reading in the research much about her relationship with Sunny being odd to the press or being called out constantly.

Nope. No, of course. The way that it is when it's a woman, older woman and a younger man. I mean, it's totally ridiculous. And, you know, I feel for her because I do believe that she is an honest human being that really just says it like it is. She tells it like it is. And then the press takes what they want and speaks. it into a story and makes, and they really like to,

even she complained about this New Yorker interview she did, where they played up that he, I guess he like gave her, he made her like a handmade kite, but it's not just like a kite, like it's like this really intricate, like schooner thing. It's a piece of art.

They made it sound like a little boy gave his mother of kite from the toy store. And like, she was fucking pissed. She's like, that's not what happened. You know what I mean? He like handmade me this amazing crafted thing.

And then they turned, turned it into this other thing. And I feel for... But that goes to show of why she's very open about why she's not looking for another husband or she doesn't publicly date anymore. She says, I can't keep a relationship going in this kind of goldfish bowl where everything you do and every picture you have taken will be on Instagram. There's no way to keep anything private or special.

And I get it. Why would you want to? She's a great interview. Yeah, she's an awesome interview for this. sense, too, that she really does say all this stuff and it is really cool. But either way, what I think critics might argue

is her best album comes out next. And that is... You can turn back time. 1989's Heart of Stone. Oh, it's such a good album. I just watched that music video before we started. We were talking about it before we started this recording, but do you guys want to elaborate on...

Oh, my God. The controversy. The shenanigatory, yeah, that happened. Pause this, right? now and watch the if I could turn back time music video. Okay. The music was filmed on the battleship USS Missouri and it is one of Scher's most notable. And so in the music video, the singer is surrounded by sailors.

Oh my God. She's dressed in quote unquote inappropriate costumes. But apparently the Navy was pissed. The Navy felt deceived because Cher had informed them that the video would tell a very innocent story. The incident changed her reputation forever. I give this a whatever to the U.S. Navy. Yes, and due to her revealing outfit, even MTV refused to play the clip before 9 p.m.

It's so ridiculous. It's so ridiculous, especially if you look at in music videos now, like them being like, oh, so scandalous. It's sheer. It's many parts of the sheer. You guys don't care, but I. One of my favorite share songs is, after all, from the movie, Chances are. And yes, it is on this album. And yes, it won best original song at the Academy Awards in 1989.

And yes, she sang it with Peter Cedera from Chicago. And there is no footage of them singing it together. They actually never sang it together in life. They was recorded separately. but it was Cher's first number one adult contemporary hit. So I will say, you know, as much as the Navy's in whatever jail and all of that, it is also fun to see that she was looked at as such a corn, corn, corny lame ball back in the 60s and stuff. During the summer of Love Day, we covered all of that with Sunny,

and she just was like a goof goof, sexually repressed, this, that, and the other. And now she's doing this like hot, too trot, badass phase in her life. where she is pushing the boundaries. It's so fun. And by the way, in her 40s too, like, we're rocking it. I love it. It's awesome to see.

But she's also saying, so at this point, she says after winning the Oscar for Moonstruck, I was scared witless, absolutely. Which is why this is the time period before Mermaids, when she turned down a lot of roles that could have really made her.

One of those roles was opposite Robert De Niro in the movie Midnight Run, that was going to be gender flipped for her. She said, I just had an offer to play opposite Robert De Niro in a man's part because they couldn't find anybody strong enough to stand up to him. I said, I don't know if I should take this as a compliment or if I should be insulted. So she turned that down because the director felt the same way.

But she also turned down the lead in the film The War of the Roses, which, as you know, went to Kathleen Turner and she fucking killed it. She really wanted to be the lead in She-Devil, but Roseanne beat her to the punch. Wow, that would have been a weird different movie. Right? She was gunning for Mortisha in the Adams family. But of course, Angelica Houston beat her out. And she was supposed to be in Thelma and Louise as well, but she seemed to be intimidated by it.

She could have been great in Thelma and Louise. Oh, my God, she would have been great. That is what she, that's what led to her. slump like in the 90s and there's a health issue. Before we get to her slump though, she does have one last hit as an actress during this time. No, that was right, that was all right before. Oh, right before. There was three years between. Gotcha. So, so then comes Mermaids, her first film in three years. She plays an eccentric mother that moves her daughters around the country after her romantic relationships. And she does end up having some issues on this set as well.

Because at this point, she's the, she's the main draw for the whole film, right? Even though she's not the character. The producers give her a lot of creative control. With that said, though, she clashes with the first two directors who ended up leaving one after the other. And then she gets a good balance with director Richard

Benjamin, who ends up taking the film and finishes the dang thing. She also had a lot of issues, like at first with the original actress who was playing Winona Ryder's part. Well, what was interesting about that is that you, well, you've got this

quote about why she didn't want to work with Winona Ryder. I have that she, oh shoot, I have that she really liked her in Heather's, and she describes her own daughter in a similar way to the Winona character in this film even saying she dresses like a bum, doesn't want new clothes, goes around real piggy, doesn't care about my trappings, says there things she's totally opposed to, and we'll later learn that's because she's trans and actually identifies. truly as a man and that is Chaz. But she connected because Winona writer, of course,

in the movie she wears boots. She doesn't want to dress ladylike. And her character, she wants to be a nun and all this stuff. But I think she brought that contrast of the way she felt about her own daughter to the role. Well, and she also wanted someone that looked more like her physically. And not to be a bit of a therapist here, but her mother did talk about,

I've got this quote from her mother, that she says, I think the anger Cher has towards me now is that I was real beautiful and blonde. I won several beauty contests and she was dark. Nobody ever thought she was my child. And then Georgian comes along, this little blonde, blue-eyed beauty. I think Cher felt like she was an ugly duckling. She never believed she was pretty.

And I do wonder if this was part of the fact that she wanted a daughter in the movie since she was basing her character off of the relationship she had with her own mother. to make it a little bit more similar in her brain. And she also felt that the girl that was originally cast was making it too dark and serious, and she wanted it to be a lighter movie. Even though technically she shouldn't be the one deciding those things. No, but I do think making it darker than it was

wouldn't have been very fun to watch. At one point, Winona Ryder's character commits suicide in one of the drafts. So, yeah, I think it would have been a lot less of what it is, which I think it's like it has a lot of dark. It's a coming of age story. Yeah, it has that darkness, but yeah. It's got that darkness, but it doesn't go too hard in the paint.

And I think that's what makes the movie work for me. I watched it last night. I really enjoyed it. Yeah, it's fun. Cher said my whole character study was based on my mother. My sister plays Mrs. Says, Mrs. Flax, is a nicer version of my mother. My daughter and I don't have that kind of relationship at all. She also said, I know from being a single mother myself, you try to do your best, but sometimes you're not equipped.

The line, you guys don't come with instructions, that's my line. Mermaid shows how people can love each other, miscommunicate, and not understand how to show it. And I think that we're going to actually get more into that theme in her life when we talk about her relationship with her son, Chaz, in the next episode, and her coming to grips with that situation, her being this like big fashion icon, this very feminine woman. and having a trans son and the struggle with that. And as well as her son, Elijah, as well, who ends up, who is the son of the Olman brother, who eventually also has a lot of issues with heroin and other drugs. And this is, again, you've got to remember,

Cher's doing all of this, she doesn't do drugs, she doesn't drink coffee, she has a very extensive workout routine. You know, this is... Oh, you think you better than me, Cher? You think you better than me? I think she knows she's better than us. I think she thinks she's better than you.

Except for the fact that she had a lot of time while making mermaids because she realized she had Epstein-Barr virus, and it was sapping her of her energy to the point that production had to be shut down so she could regain her strength. She said, I was so sick I thought I was going to die. I went to doctor after doctor. They didn't know what was wrong. with her. And this is another

reason of why she falls off after this movie is because she's trying to figure out what is going wrong with her and she's also exhausted. So while she's making mermaid, she's also, you've got to remember, she just released two

hit albums. So she's touring and making movies at the same time and then her body just kind of stops. I mean, the main symptom of this virus is chronic fatigue. Chronic fatigue. So then this sad turn happens.

She has to keep making ends meet. She's got these two kids. She's dealing with this health issue. And that's why she ends up going into this infomercial work during the mid-late 90s. Oh, I remember. Right? She launches a health. Oh, I remember.

This makes her a butt of a joke again. She's a parody again. It's so wild. It's a joke in clueless. Yeah, it is. It is. Down to the fact that she was doing infomercial, some of the info commercial she was doing was her for her hairdresser friend, Lori Davis, who had called upon her to help her advertise a new line of hair products.

But the problem is that Cher is clearly wearing her wigs in all of the ads about hair products. So everyone, and of course, this is before the internet, but still, there were, there was a sketch on, you know, there were sketches on SNL. There were sketches on in living color. They're like she was being made fun of everywhere because of it. Sherr said suddenly I became the infomercial queen and it didn't occur to me that people would focus on that and strip me of all my other things. So she, yes, though, also Natalie, she ends up contributing that rock version of I got you babe to the Beavis and Butthead show. I just think that this is a really interesting quote talking about that this is where I think, this is the quote, this is where I think the boomer. idea and the millennial idea of Cher most sharply diverges.

A lot of people despised Cher in the mid-70s because she refused to follow the accepted rules and die in flames before the age of 30. Stephanie Brush wrote in a 1988 New York Times piece, We had made a pact with our mythic celebrities of the 60s, perish tragically or will bury you anyway. We despised Cher for insisting on remaining famous. but we couldn't make her go away through ridicule because she had become far too good at ridiculing herself.

So this also goes to show that her strength and her bitchiness, quote unquote, does help her in this situation because she publicly pushes right fucking through it. Very cool move in 1995 is releasing It's a Man's World, which had her covering men's songs from a woman's point of view. this was generally well received but obviously not one of the things she's most well known

this is the era probably when we I guess you grew up with her a little bit more Jackie but I don't know if Holden same for you but for me I kind of knew her as an infomercial lady first yeah a little bit more than anything or it's just like oh this lady and a punchline like I knew her as a punchline like for Sunny and Cher

I mean that was such a Clueless I knew her from Clueless because the main character's name is Cher and they make a joke about it at the beginning. In 1996, she made a film that she was good in but was generally considered bad, which was called Faithful, that she refused to promote. She claimed it was horrible.

So another nail in the coffin of the 90s for her career slump here. This point she says, fuck it, I'll direct my own damn movie, which she herself starred in. Of course, it's an anthology movie. She directed the last of the anthology tales, but it also stars Demi Moore and Cissy Spaceac.

It's called If These Walls Could Talk, it is about abortion. Jackie cannot wait to say the word abortion. Abortion, abortion. It was an abortion, Michael. But that's a different movie. Different film. Bit of a spoiler. If these walls could talk, rocked my world.

Well, I guess that's the wrong phrase for it. Yeah, I just feel like you're too excited about this abortion movie and it's making you come off weird, Jackie. I think it's because I watched it a lot because it was on HBO and it was such a, It's such a raw look at experiences of abortion set 20 years apart from each other. So every vignette is 20 minutes, every vignette is 20 years apart, but people living in the same house. So director Nancy Savoca, who also wrote it with other people, says that if these walls could talk was a trailbraiser. Trail brazier? says that if these walls could talk

was a trailblazer in its frank discussion of abortion, the issue was to be handled in a straightforward manner which hadn't really been done before. Part of the reason that Cher was so involved in this production and why she not only wanted to be in one of the vignettes

but also direct one of the vignettes and why her sister Georgianne was also a small part in the clinic was because, like we talked about last time, our mother almost died from an illegal abortion when I was little. Our grandmother had a desperate coat hanger abortion when she was young. I had four miscarriages before I got pregnant with my daughter. I had two legal abortions as well.

She says, I think that when people hear the words pro-choice and pro-life, they're just words. The word abortion can't begin to express what the actual experience is. It's like going to the electric chair. When you go down that long road and you sit in that thing, it's only you sitting there. Nobody can come with you. Nobody holds your hand. The experience is yours and yours alone. You're the one who has to make the decision, who has to go through the experience, and you're the one who has to live with the decision afterward.

It should really be called hard choice, not pro choice. Yeah. And all of the women that were involved, like Demi Moore was the first one brought on board, and she was very interested. in showing abortion in a way that it had never been portrayed, not in just a, oh, they had to do it. But it's also the times of, what if you're not ready? What if you can't? What if you know it's just going to affect your life for the...

And then it's also fascinating. I didn't hear if you brought this up, but her own experience with her mother deciding not to. And you would think that would make her super pro life, but it's really nice to see that she understands that the other side of that coin is also... Yes. And also, with this movie, they show, I really think the first time,

especially in one movie, the difference between an illegal abortion and a legal abortion, because it's 20 years, and then it ends up being 40 years apart from the beginning, and why it has to be legal, and why people have to be able to get that procedure done, and I'm spoiling,

it, I'm spoiling the movie. It was very upsetting because in Scher's vignette, she plays the abortion doctor, and it's Matthew Lillard that lies his way into the clinic and shoots her while she is giving Anne Hish an abortion.

Wow. And it's very upsetting. It's really well done. And especially for, at the time, a TV movie, it's really intense. And what interesting because

Is it findable now, Jackie? Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's the only movie we can find is the abortion one. I can't find fucking mask, but I could, all right, well, either way. In other fun news, Sunny Bono dies, and that's where we're going to end this whole thing. As fate would have it, Sunny Bono, who had since become a restaurateur, and then a congressman after leaving Cher was fatally injured while skiing in Lake Tahoe in 1998 at the age of Share would go on to deliver the eulogy at his televised memorial service and called him, quote, the most unforgettable character.

Man, everybody ripped her apart for doing that eulogy. Why? Because his ex-wife was coming. I was like, oh, she just wanted to be there because she was going to be on television because of it. What? Oh, she was just going to be there because of what it looked like. When in reality, she still loved and cared for. What kind of psychopath would think that's a famous, ugh, whatever.

Again, like she needed to be on TV? Yes, because this was during her quote unquote slump, another one of her slump periods. And that even, but Sunny Bono's widow, Mary also was fine with Cher giving the eulogy. She was actually only upset with Cher because Cher did publicly say that she had made peace with Sunny posthumously, posthumously? Posthumously, I believe. Posthumously? Via famed psychic James von Pragg.

So I guess she wasn't able to, in real life, make amends, but she did through the psychic James von Praagh. Hell yeah. Cher said, I forgive him, I think. He hurt me in so many ways, but there was something. He was so much more than a husband, a terrible husband, but a great mentor, a great teacher. There was a bond between us that,

could not be broken. If he had agreed to just disband share enterprises and start all over again, I would have never, ever left. Just split it down the middle. 50-50. I think it's gracious that she forgave him and gave a eulogy after everything he did. I think that that's showing strength for her, not like, oh, she just wants the camera. It's like, no, she's expressing her gratitude for somebody who also was very, it was a complicated relationship who was, he was abusive to her. Yeah. Yes, but also I will say she made her amends, but not all 100% of it, because Sonny Bono did not have a will, and so she sued the estate for the money he's still over. Wow.

I mean, that's just, I mean, that's just fucking business, man. But they're divorced. Not like, oh, he was like still paying her off. Like, no, this was money that he had held back from her from the divorce. So that I'm fine with. I don't disagree with that. Yeah, so now we leave off part two at, again, such an interesting cliffhanger in her career, and she's going to have another huge revival.

Then she's going to make burlesque. But it's going to be a good one. It's going to be an, oh, God, do we have to watch burlesque this week? Yeah, you're damn fucking right. We do. And it will give me a reason to rewatch tea with Mussolini. You mean, do we get to watch burlesque? Yes.

I'm very excited about it. I kind of want to do a group watch with you guys. Maybe we can talk about it. Let's figure it out. I love it, I love it. Thank you guys so much for joining us for Share Part 2. It was a thick girl this week. Yes, it was.

We'll be coming at you with a lot of fun for the last third that we will be doing next. And thank you guys again. A Paso-One! It's such a good damn song. My name is Jackie Sabrowski, and I love Cher. You can find me on Instagram at Jack That Worm. My name is so many. I love Share more than Jackie does.

And you can find me on Twitch.com. Holden-Dandor-So. I do that with Jackie. I drink too much coffee today. Twitch.tvon-Tvueh. So you can also check our Patreon out. Patreon.com. Ford slash page separate podcast.

You can just get a lot of weekly stuff. I'm Natalie Jean, and I love Share more than Holden and less than Jackie. Whoa. You can follow me. In between. Yeah, that's right. I'm starting to feud.

You can follow me at the Daddy Jean and our show at page 7 LPN. We love you guys. Bye. Bye, everybody. This show is made possible by listeners like you. Thanks to our ad sponsors. You can support our shows by supporting them. For more shows like the one you just listened to,

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