Page 7 - Pop History: Joan Rivers Pt I

Episode Date: January 7, 2020

We kick off our series on comedic legend and tough as nails broad, Joan Rivers.    This weekend! Come see Page 7 and Wizard and the Bruiser Live in Chicago, Pontiac and Milwaukee!    Check out Ben Kissel's documentary "Hail Yourself America"! Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes of Page 7 ad-free.Start a free trial now on Apple Podcasts or by visiting siriusxm.com/podcastsplus. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, this is Natalie Jean. Do you want to get warm? Well, Midwest, you come on out to page 7 in Wizard and the Brewser Live this week. We will be in Chicago. We will be in Pontiac. We'll be in Milwaukee. That is January 9th, 10th, and 11th. We want to see you. We want to squeeze you.

We want you to feel the heat coming from us. Come out and get some warm, toasty toes with us at lastpodcastnetwork.com backslash P7 live. So see us then. It is 9th, 10th, and 11, Chicago, Pontiac, Milwaukee, page 7, Wizard and the Brewzer Live. I love you. All I want to do is sing cats, so I don't have to start it.

We can't sing cats, we can't say, this is not what we're doing. This is not what she would what? You're right. You're right. Honestly, she would probably. She would have loved cats. Can you imagine how she would have ripped the fuck out of cats?

Okay, we should stop saying she. Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome to our pop history episode on Joan Rivers. My name's Holden McNeely and I am joined by Natalie Jean. And I'm Jackie Zabrowski and we are here to talk about, I am going to go ahead and say one of, for me, one of my big influences. I think she's up there with Catherine O'Hara and a Lily Tomlin for me. Of course. And Joan Rivers is someone that you grow up thinking that she is one person.

And honestly, it was because I had watched Joan Rivers piece of work, the documentary, which I cannot recommend enough for you. I didn't know the life of Joan Rivers, which is why we're doing this too, Parker, because she is such an inspiration to anyone. Whether you're in the entertainment business, no matter what you do, she is inspiration if you are, I mean, especially even just as a mother, I want to be just like her. I guess. I mean, I do you have. No, she was actually, yeah, she was, there was no Mommy Dearest stuff with her,

so that was, that's cool. No, except for the fact that she, I will say that I think she lived her life as if she was Joan Crawford. And I think that that is a lot of fun. She's cosplaying.

She's having a good time. And so we really, we are diving in deep to Joan Rivers. We were going to just do one episode, but there's just so much. No way. There's way too much to tell in this story. I personally,

I feel like in my early stages, of viewing her. By this point, she's on QVC. She's doing fashion police on E. And I always wrote her off as some snitty Hollywood fashionista, you know, superficial type, right?

And then I remember going to see Joan Rivers a piece of work actually with another comedian, a female comedian who was incredibly inspired by her Annie Letterman. Who wasn't? Oh. I was supposed to say,

It's not me. You don't have any other friends. It's just me. Annie Letterman, who's, like, crushing it these days. Yes. At the comedy store and doing, making all the rounds and all that stuff. And I remember how much we just fell in love with this film and her story and not realizing how raw and real and true to herself. And true to comedy, she always was.

And how she never apologized for being offensive and would be gleefully offensive all throughout her career and her life for giving voice. a voice to female comedy at a time when I read one quote somewhere. I don't have it exactly, but essentially the woman was always the butt of the joke or this or that or played in a certain way. And she was one of the first female comedians getting up there and saying, this is what it's like to be a woman. This is what it's like to be a woman in her 20s, to be a middle-aged mother, you know, all of these things.

Because she was inspired by Lenny Bruce who got up there and, you know, spilled his guts out. Said it like it was. Well, it's so easy to forget when she was starting, she was sort of lambasted and criticized by a lot of the male comedians for saying things like the phrase put out. Uh-huh. Like, was so scandalous.

Her big phrase was, I'm Joan Rivers and I put out. And that is the funniest way to end a stand-up set. That's hilarious. Are you fucking kidding me? It is hilarious. And at the time, people were like taken back by the, idea that this woman would, this tiny little skinny blonde woman would say something like that. What I also appreciate is that she was one of the first comedians that was writing comedy

for women by a woman. And that is very important because you got to remember as much as I love Richard Pryor. I love George Carlin. I mean, it's like Sam Kennis. We've talked about Sam Kahn's before. I enjoyed all of the male standups at this era. But the, the, the, the, the, the, you know, the, the, you know, Content was not for us as women. No, definitely not. And also, I think that a lot of those guys, they would, there'd be a lot of, like, objectification and sexualization of women in the jokes,

which is cool, but they didn't want a woman to do that. They didn't want the woman to be the one sexualizing themselves in the joke. That was offensive, but, like, to do it from a male standpoint was fine. My name is Joan Rivers and I put out. I would, to be fair, Sam Kinnison did teach me a very valuable lesson on eating pussy. spell the alphabet out with your tongue, and I've used that trick moving forward.

I'm just saying it wants a bit of a hell. I don't want to think about you using your tongue for anything. See, this is part of the problem. You know, we should be allowed to say it. If Holden is going to use his mouth over alphabet, then I support it. Yeah, every letter. You just do every letter, and you just zone out,

thinking about your grocery list or whatever, but I will say that. Well, you zone out. Cool. But I think even more eye-opening than the I put-out thing is reading that she was heavily criticized for doing stand-up while very pregnant, which is like, blows me away. We will get into this, but it's in a time buried where not only could you not say, you couldn't say the word abortion, she had to say appendectives instead. And as well, she couldn't even say that she was pregnant when she was seven months pregnant. and that the only thing that Ed Sullivan would allow her to say

was that soon you would hear the pitter-patter of tiny feet. Ugh, which is so much grosser. That's disgusting. Like making whoopi. Making whoopee is so much grosser than it's saying having sex. Sounds like you're making a bunch of farts. Yeah. Whoop.

No, that's how, that's the sound I make. That is my sex sound. Whoop-whoop-whoop. Mine's, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's like quieter kind of as it goes.

It just peers out. Until he falls asleep. If there's no orgasm, he just falls asleep. That's how it ends. I will say... I love, too, with Joan Rivers, is that she never makes any bones about the fact that she... It's unapologetic, and it wasn't like she was saying this just for show.

I'm going to go ahead and throw it out of there. She was a major bitch. Sure. But a hilarious bitch. See, this is the thing that I feel like people don't get. You can be as mean as you want to be as long as you're being funny. If you are a comedian, I'm not saying, like, if that is what your job is to do, if you are going to say upsetting things and be as offensive as she was and to that level,

be funny while you do it. Yes. And then it's okay. And I'm not saying, because she wasn't. Well, what I appreciate about her is that it wasn't down to racism. It wasn't, she wasn't getting even, she wasn't getting dirty in that respect that I didn't see, at least the kind of the standup bits I was watching. Mostly self-deprecating. It was never about that.

He was mostly self-deprecating. It was against women. It was against, which I very much enjoy as someone that in my roundtable years and something I kept coming up against, as I was reading about Joan Rivers, is that you feel as a. woman when you're in a man's game is specifically comedy and entertainment to then be the brashest then to be because you're like okay well i'm already behind these men then i'm going to be bigger a louder presence i'm going to be so in your face that you can't recognize you can't not recognize me and that is something that she has taught so many other not only just female comedies but comedians in general but if you're going to do it, be funny while you're doing it.

And I will say that, you know, that's largely on stage and in front of the camera. I feel like I've read so many people talk about the warmth that she exuded in person. She was such a good person. And so open and so from all accounts that she would just be so open and honest with you and be so forthcoming with her life story and everything. And I think you get that in a lot of ways in the documentary of piece of work because she really does tell you the story in her own words in that documentary.

And that's what I love about. She has so many autobiography. She has so many books written in her own words, but then where I've been crying the most is reading about what Melissa Rivers has to say about her in the books. She's written about her mother because she was a woman that wanted to welcome people,

that she said that her mother was the kind of person that you would sit down next to and then tell all of your secrets because she wasn't a judgmental person on that respect. And that's awesome to read, that she not only was so hardworking, but also wanted to connect with people. Her big catchphrase in life was,

Can we talk? Can we talk? Can we talk? Can we talk? I watch so many. They're all on YouTube. I mean, it's also just a great snapshot in time. But you've got to remember, Joan Rivers. She's Emmy winning and Tony and Grammy nominated.

She's the first female. to ever perform at Carnegie Hall. She's the first female comedian to be in the top 20 on the billboard chart with a comedy album. She's the first female to ever host a late night show on a major network. This is someone that paved the way for everything that we do now, no matter what you got in your groin.

No matter what you got it. No matter what junk's on there. Whatever you got. It doesn't matter. That's what's fun about her too. It's like, that doesn't matter. She was just speaking from what she knew. knew and she had an interesting upbringing, which also brought a lot to light about what she

was and how she carried herself. Let's get into it. Do you tell? Let's get into it. Did you like my segue? B. I'm proud of my segue. A C.

It was good, but then you mentioned it. Yeah, oh, I'm not supposed to mention the segways. Oh, I mean, what segue? Were you just doing the alphabet like you were eating a pussy? Maybe. What? Let me have fun. You're looking at us.

You're looking across at us. Sorry, sorry. It's not okay. I apologize. But what I don't apologize for is this fact toy. Thank you. Born Joan Alexandra Malinsky in June of 1933, she was born to Russian Jewish immigrant parents,

and she had an older sister, specifically they lived in Prospect Heights and Crown Heights in Brooklyn. Her father was a workaholic doctor, which I think is how she got that part of it because she is no tour. I can't, she makes me, she's one of those people I read about. I'm like, you're making me feel bad.

I need to up my game. We don't work hard enough. None of us work hard enough. Oh, no, no, no. And so, yeah, her father apparently was a workaholic and her mother was a housewife that lived beyond her means. And apparently that had a big influence on drone rivers is a shopaholicism.

We have to talk about her mother real fast. Okay, please. Her mother, Beatrice Malinski, She was very well off. She came from a family in Russia. And her family had, her family's job was to procure furs for the Russian czars and zaryas. Jesus Christ.

That makes so much sense because one of Joan Rivers' classic things is her furs. Oh, the furs. So she moved to America with her husband and left all of the riches in Russia. So she came here for him. And so that put into Jerusalem. Jones Rivers because she went like her mother had come from having so much to having nothing and to forcing her father to work to work to work that her mother had a pathological fear of poverty after that that she put into her kids and that she spent her time talking

about her childhood in Russia and forcing her father to pay for maids and governesses that they not only couldn't afford but they didn't need. So Richard's father, Meyer Balinski, he grew up poor and he was just a neighborhood doctor. So her mother thought that he was a big wig a doctor in America that was going to give them a bunch of money. So when he brought, when like he, like her mother moved here, she was very disappointed and that as River put it, as 90 day fiancee, right? Yeah, the 90 day. Her mother wanted her father's MD title to mean to make dollars. I think she was helping the family by overspending beyond there means she forced him to work.

She had to work harder. There you go. Perfect. A child, that's what it is. It's a relationship. It's challenging each other. But I think that also makes sense later on as we will see that when Joan Rivers loses everything,

that she will not take it sitting down. Right. Because neither did her mother. So Joan Rivers as a child, she referred to herself as a fat and ugly and that she was always outshown by her sister. I don't understand. I don't understand. I'm not.

never identified with that. And that's why she became obsessed over her entire life with her own body image. But also, that's how comedy really, she discovered comedy as a strength. She first founded at just eight years old. She told her family and friends of funny story and realized that they were laughing with her instead of at her. And also, though, she found it to be, quote, a medium for revenge. We can deflate and punish the pomposity and the rejection, which,

hurts us, which I think is beautiful, beautiful way to put it. Don't identify with that. Ouch! Ouch! Jackie, we gotta give you gotta change your name like Joan Rivers did. What should I do? I mean, what do I change Zabrowski to? Jack Lee. Oh no, what about Jacqueline Gold?

Jackling Gold. Yeah. Like I'm number one. How about Jacqueline Platinum? Jacqueline Platinum. Jacqueline Platinum. Oh, Jacqueline Platinum. Jacqueline Platinum is so easy to say it rolls right off the touch.

Right off the tongue. It'll stick in everybody's brains for the rest of time. That's a power move. Jackie Platt. Well, then it sounds like I'm married to Oliver Platt, which I'm very into. Jackie Platypus.

No, it's not driving for platypus. Jackie Plattie. Um, anywho. Also, I like Jack Gold. You said Jack and Gold, but I like Jack Gold because then they'll think that you're a dude and then you come in and you're like, I'm actually a female woman.

and then knock their socks off. I'll knock every sock off. In fact, if their socks aren't knocked off, I'll go up and I'll take their socks off. So you take them off by hands. Yeah. So she ends up attending a college preparatory day school called the Brooklyn Ethical Culture School

and Adelphi Academy of Brooklyn, which was very progressive. And she there became vice president of the dramatic club. And then went to Connecticut College in the early 50s and graduated from Barnard College in 50s. with a BA in English literature and anthropology. So you also have to remember with these colleges, she went from a Swanky Connecticut college

to a more liberal arts college in this. So I think this is where she... You're saying something about people who go to liberal arts colleges? I'm saying I went to a liberal arts college. Because I wasn't looking for my MRS. And I think that that's what the difference is. I think somebody with a BA in dance

has as much value as somebody with a doctor. Are you trying to say something about my BA in theater right now because I'm ready for the stage. The most important class I took in college getting my theater degree was the class that taught me how to use Microsoft Office. As it got me steady work after college, every other class was useless.

So while at college she sees Lini Bruce perform and this changes her life. She said he was an epiphany. Linney told the truth. It was a total affirmation for me that I was on the right track long before anyone said it to me. He supplied the revelation

that personal truth can be the foundation of comedy that outrageousness can be cleansing and healthy. It went off inside me like an enormous flash. And also Lenny Bruce is another contributing factor in the Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, which apparently I have not seen a whole lot of Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, but it seems that there are a lot of tie-ins to what Joan Rivers evolved through in the six season doing comedy. There's definitely some major connectors there between the main character of that show in Joan Rivers' career.

Because you also got to remember, so she's living at heart. home this entire time because that's what you did. That's what you did. She would commute into Manhattan in a beat-up Buick, and she had, her original intent was she wanted to be an actress. She wanted her name to be J. Sandra Meredith. But instead, she started doing comedy as a strip club MC, and she used to call herself Pepper January, Comedy with Spice.

Pepper January. Which Pepper January is an awesome name. It is. Especially because she was working in strip clubs. I want that to be my stripper name, and I can't know. It's ruined. Oh, man, you would be a great pepper January. Yeah.

I want to be a salt March. You are salt. No, you're salty. Or assault. Assault March. Yeah. I hurt people. I don't know.

No, don't. Yeah. I go around and I say, oh, what you want? And then I punch them. Just stomp on them. You march around with your big boots on. Yeah, you march around. with your pink boots on and you stump.

I think it's great. Interesting. Are you trying to insinuate that I'm not big and strong? Is that what's happening right now? Fascinating. Don't make me spell the alphabet. Ew. So is her agent at the time,

Tony Rivers that asked her to change her name and she ended up with Joan Rivers because of using his name? Also, I thought you were about to go into this part, Jackie. Classic tale that I feel like you don't hear as much about in this day and age, but of course, the family. family very against her being an actress or being in show business to a almost ludicrous degree that you would see in a Made for TV movie.

It's kind of over the top. Because also you got her, of course her parents are so against it because they wanted her to marry a doctor. And that is a big part of her schick for many years about how her parents were so upset because she didn't marry rich. And they also, according to her parents, she was a, and said many times, she was a complete failure. because she was childless, she was divorced, and after this period of time, and then she was unable to find steady work in a respectable profession

because she had no background in anything. Gross. Nobody likes a woman with no babies. You're right. Disgusting. So, yeah, she, well, she gets divorced because of the husband, she didn't realize, didn't want children.

She, I guess. But who he was also a very rich dude. Yeah. That she married to tell her parents, like, okay, I got married. I have questions about this guy. Was he just a random? He wasn't a show business guy.

No. He was like somebody to like appease the parents. Yes. It was someone from her college. James Sanger. It only lasted six months and it was in old because Sanger apparently didn't share the fact that he had no intention of having children with her. And so they broke up. Also, you know, she gets estranged from her parents for about a year or so because her father goes and sees one of the plays she's in and calls it, quote,

the worst piece of garbage I ever saw. And so she broke ties with them. Her parents said that? Her own father said that. Jesus Christ. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They really wanted her to be a wife of a rich man. Yeah.

Yeah, da-da-da-da-da-buddy-ha. I mean, okay, parents are not wrong to not want their kids to be in show business because it is accessible. Now I get it. But that's also not healthy to tell her that she's trash. No, yeah. That's not going to do. That's all you're just pushing her further into show business.

That was about to say. That's literally the way to guarantee that happening. And that's what she's doing. She's performing in an off-Broadway play called Driftwood, starring a young Barbara Streisand that ran for six weeks. So this is the beginning of apparently Joan Rivers was a bit of a prevaricator and lied a lot about how she got to where she got to. Now, she claims in this off-Broadway show that she played a lesbian. with a crush on Barbara Streisand

and that they kiss in the play and that later Joan Rivers would joke that Barbara was all tongue. But apparently the playwright himself came out and claimed there was no lesbianism in the play and that didn't happen. That's a great made-up story. But see, that's the thing.

It said as I've been looking, as we've been doing all this research, the things that she would lie about were all for specific reasons. And we'll see later on and the other things that I found that she was actually lying about, it was to make her seem more like she was supposed to be where she was at, that she had made it on her own and not without anybody's help,

that it was no fate, that she brought everything that she wanted into existence, which she did. Yeah. But she also, that's why I find it interesting what she pick and choose to lie about. Right. It's really not,

I don't think, uncommon for people who become sort of iconic. You have to kind of create a legend around yourself sometimes. As long as you're not lying about like the bodies you've buried or your taxes, I guess. Yeah. Then fucking make it up. Who cares? And I mean, the reality is amazing too.

She's now hitting all the comedy clubs in Greenwich Village, the bitter end, the gaslight cafe, the duplex. She became friends with Woody Allen and George Carlin around this time. She's working alongside musicians such as Bob Dylan, Carly Simon, and Garfunkel. and she's really just trying to find her voice on stage. And she was actually started doing this because she really wanted to be an actress and she was told that if she started doing stand-up at night

that she could make a little money. You're funny. A friend of mine is a stand-up. They make $8 a night. You should go down and be a stand-up. And they still do today. And I thought, yes. How great, I can do that at night and make the rounds during the day

so that I could try to be an actress. But that's how she started doing comedy. And she's seeing this like cat skills, old-school. Phyllis Diller's style type of comedy everywhere. Very like one-linery and very, just not personal, not that Lenny Bruce stuff that she really fell in love with before she started. And so she's really looking to shake things up and change things.

She ends up doing involved in an act with a guy named Jim Connell and Jake Holmes performing music and comedy. Holmes said, we weren't really a folk act. We were more of a cabaret act based in a folk world. We played at upscale folk clubs. We did a lot of playboy clubs. We didn't last very long. We were supposed to do this rally for Bobby Kennedy,

who was running for New York Senator in 1964. We were going to play at the rally. Joan showed up with a Kenneth Keating button on. He was the Republican Senate nominee. Jim said, take that off. She said, no. She was sticking to her political guns. And Jim said, who needs you anyway?

That was the end of Jim, Jake, and Joan. I didn't know she was going to be a big star. I had no idea. No idea. Which also is fun because this will come into play later on as well, because apparently Johnny Carson's booker, Shelley Schultz, had seen her perform with Jim Jake and Joan and thought that that is what Joan Rivers was.

And that's what her persona was. But then, you know, he figured it out later on that that wasn't the case. So she moves actually to Chicago for a very short period of time, and she ends up having a notorious audition for Second City in which they made her wait for about five hours and then when she walked in the room there were no scripts which she did not realize was going to be the case she thought she was I guess

auditioning for a play or something and became fucking furious with them when they told her to improvise but also it's SCTV that's most I mean or it's not SCTV but it's Second City it's huge improv school that's what it is I mean this is the 50s 50s, though. So Second City wasn't Second City. How old is Second City? It goes... I guess that old.

Back to around this time. The 50s, I think maybe the 40s, I'd have to go look it up. I didn't realize that. Holy shit. There's a really good oral history about Second City that I'm forgetting the name of right now. It's a great book, though, and everyone should check it out. It goes all the way back to the beginning. So anyways, she's auditioning. She's furious. She throws an ashtray at them, I guess, or I guess at the table or something. And this is one of these old-timey. showbiz stories from like how the fuck did this happen and then miraculously they

call her the next day and say you've got a spot on the team see again that's why I think it's kind of fun that in reading her books and things like that it's kind of like well probably didn't happen like that because you usually honestly if you are a name

and you go in and you do something like that and they need you they'll probably still offer you the spot right but if you're a nobody and you throw an ashtray at someone in an audition. You're not going to get the part. I'm only going to, I'm adding into that.

Yes, of course, there's probably a high chance that that didn't happen. But I could also see it being a thing where it was so out of the ordinary. And like women were never like that back then that they would have just been like blown away. But look at this crazy talent. Look at this day movie. And this is really, it does connect to what happens next, which is really through Second City. She finds that voice she was looking for. She ends up developing a role.

she named the character Rita and there was a single girl that was a vessel for social and sexual satire and she felt that quote she was really born as a comedian end quote. I think that this is what's so interesting about creating characters

as something not to be like this but as someone that usually I struggled with trying to do stand-up because I felt that it was too raw and it was too personal that I always enjoyed personally hiding behind a character to be able to

say the things that I'm actually feeling. And that's what Joan Rivers did to find, to get the chutzpah, if you will, to get the chutzpah to be herself on stage by originally hiding behind a character. Jackie, have you ever thought about doing

a character like carrot top, like a prop comedian or... Natalie, what have I been doing this old? I gotta go. Yeah, we gotta stop this podcast. I gotta get out of here. But that is actually where she came up with the, that's when she started doing them. My name is Joan Rivers and I put out. It's because Rita's character dished about birth control, her affair with a married man,

and her gay friend Mr. Phyllis, who comes back again and again and again in a lot of her schicks about her gay friend Mr. Phyllis. She said, when I am on stage, I am every woman's outrage. I am furious about everything. Every joke I make, no matter how tasteless, is there to draw attention. to something I care about. And yeah, she did abortion, disability, the Holocaust. She would never apologize for any of it. There was a Hollywood director in a Vanity Fair article who had this to say.

She said, I knew I wasn't wanted when I was born with a coat hanger in my mouth. People didn't talk about things like that back then. Illegal abortion was verboten. And at the time, it ruined people's lives. She broke ground because she dared to say things that other people dared to think were funny and she got away with it. And at the same vein, too, she's up on stage that it's in this, she was very, she was compared to Woody Allen, she was compared to Phyllis Diller, the Phyllis Diller's self-depreciating

one-liners, but she was also on stage, you have to remember, in a little black dress and pearls. So she was doing this for a reason. She wanted to be speaking jokes from the upper class, but what I love too is that it wasn't against the lower class, that I think that, I think that this was giving a voice to women who were seen and not heard. And that's what made it even better. And what I love is that it was around this time that Lenny Bruce actually saw her bomb one night and he wrote her note and didn't talk to her afterwards. It just wrote, you're right and they're wrong.

Signed Lenny Bruce and she said she kept it tucked into her bra as a talisman until she debuted on Johnny Carson in 1965. That's amazing. And that's awesome. It is. And that's how I feel about every bad decision I make. Yes, I'm right and they are wrong. So this is now we're in the 60s.

The swinging sexy 60s and everybody's having sex. Everyone is having sex. And she has an early appearance on the Tonight Show back when it was hosted by Jack Parr. Apparently she bombed twice. Oh, yeah? Yes, she like bombed hard twice. And she had a writing gig on Candid Camera. where she would also play, quote, the bait.

She would bait people. She'd be that person on the street. Help, I need help, my bait, you know, whatever. And then they'd do the prank on him. But this is also around the time that she started stealing other people's routines. Oh, really? And that's why a lot of agents shunned her at this time is because she was stealing other people's routines, but writing them in her voice and taking them to the stage to essentially jonify them a bit.

And apparently that was something that, unfortunately, she was known for a lot. which is why a lot of people didn't trust her. And this was around the time again when she finally started talking to her parents again and that she was offered a promising gig and her parents encouraged her to perform at the Westchester Country Club. She flopped so aggressively

that her parents sneaked out through the kitchen. Her father called her a tramp and Rivers ran away and she was homeless for months in New York City. A tramp like a homeless person or a tramp like a slut? I think a little. Call Mala Lomba? Okay.

But then she ends up after seven auditions over the course of three years, getting to finally perform on the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson and makes her first appearance there on February 19th, 1965. So this we got to talk about because she has said throughout the years that it was actually Bill Cosby that got her onto the Tonight Show. And this is lie number two. This is, yeah, our two, three, seven, we're not, this

of the big lies. So, so as I think a lot of people know that if you are aware of Joan Rivers that we are getting into right now, this was her big break. This was her six minutes of shining that changed her entire life. Now, Shelley Schultz, who is again,

this is coming back to this dude, the Booker for the Tonight Show, claims that everything that Joan Rivers said about Bill Cosby was wrong. So Joan made up these tales, he said. Joan said that, here's how she got in the Tonight Show. Bill Cosby was on as a guest.

There was a comic on the show who died, and Bill leaned over to Johnny and said, Joan Rivers could do better. Why don't you put her on? That never happened. Joan just wanted to associate herself with Bill's comedy persona. She was the queen of changing history.

She never saw history as a succession of events as they were. She always rewrote history with her own idea of how she succeeded, because in reality, she had started working with a new agent by the name of Roy Silver, who had seen her perform at the duplex. Now, she kept asking her

when she couldn't get an agent, couldn't get an agent, and Roy Silver, when he saw her, said, because everyone's seen you. You've been on the Jack Parr show twice. You bombed, and there's no interest in you anywhere. But he eventually started, I think she kind of coerced him into working with her. At least that's what it seems.

And he started working with her, and he was friends with Shelley Schultz. So Shelley Schultz continues and saying, Then Roy called me again and said, Come see this chick Joan Rivers. She's funny, and she was adorable. She was homely and plain, but she had some funny stuff, and you couldn't help but like her.

She had the same quality Cosby had. There's a word in Yiddish, haemish. That means humane or warm. She was hamish. So I came back to the Tonight Show and said, Roy Silver has this girl, a goofy little broad from Brooklyn. Which, again, how they spoke about women is very funny. So Schultz recall that he helped Rivers

debut and he shaped it for her, which I don't know if I believe this and it actually don't really like this part, but he said that nobody just came on the tonight show. The interview was written, the response by the guests was written, the retort by Johnny was written. It was a fail-safe show. So he brought in Joan and worked with her to prepare her spot, a stand-up spot at six minutes, and she had a hodgepodge of material. So I said, take this out, put this in, show night comes a couple of nights later, she comes in, she kills him, destroys him. She was so good. Johnny waved her over to sit down.

And that's something that we now, that at least I know now, no comic was ever asked to sit down, let alone a woman. This was literally, back in the day, show business, nowadays you can get big

in weird and insane ways. But back in the day, as a stand of a comedian, literally you were made or broken by the Johnny Carson wave to the couch. This was actually, like this giant moment. Essentially, and this is like the way show business is to work,

you were an overnight sensation if Johnny Carson waved you the couch. It's called the Carson effect. Carson Daily, right? Yeah, Carson Daily. Obviously. That gelled hair. There's a little baby sitting on the couch going like, it was like a groundhog looking for a shadow.

It's so weird now. Now there's all these different avenues and everything, but back then that was one of the only ways you could essentially have like an explosive lifelong career in showbiz, especially as a comedian. Dick Cavett, I love this quote from him. This is his perspective. He was a total unknown at the time. And I have been in this situation as a comedian in New York City multiple times in my life, sitting with my friends watching one of our people make it on a late show like this. A bunch of us as yet unknown sat huddled breathlessly on a staircase and a tiny club in Greenwich Village

where we'd all been appearing. A small black and white TV on an extension cord was tuned to the Tonight Show. Johnny introduced Joan. She walked out and we all held our breath until the moment she got that first big laugh. Getting chills. Right?

And many, many more. She was a smash. And the rest of her colorful, professional life began right then and there. We were all so happy for her as Johnny made it clear that she would be a star. And we were all a deep shade of green. with envy, which is...

But you love it, and I think that that it's something that is important that in the comedy community, and I'm sure that it's like this in other communities in the entertainment world, but this is the one that we are familiar with. We all support each other. I remember, like, when your pretty face is going to hell, no, I'm only ever happy,

unless it's someone that looks just like me, and then I wish that maybe I could be in their place. But, like, when your pretty face going to hell came out, everyone in New York came to watch the first episode with Henry in a big bar, we watch it in silence and afterwards, everybody cheered. Yeah. That's awesome. And that's, it's like we should be there for each other to watch.

It's this community and that's something that unfortunately Joan Rivers was never a part of because it's time and time again of the quotes of like, I was with the boys. I made it to the boys club. but I was never invited into the boys club and the kind of thing where she would be out with them until you know like midnight and then they would all go somewhere else and she was never invited

she doesn't want to go to that party there's a lot of bad stuff that happened at that party but at the same time I think that she did want to go to the party because if there's one thing that I've learned about Joan Rivers ooh oh mama liked to not only party but also a ring on a finger never really kept Joan at bay yeah but I don't think she wanted to grab titty I think she was down for

She was down with the clown man And I think that's Ersum-sers I do think though that her not being accepted Into the mainstream or even into like the boys club Or by her parents or any of that Or any of it but I do think it actually It feeds into her persona And ultimately

Somebody who is being edgy like that You don't want to be too accepted Because then you lose that And it's like you you develop that that iconic cult status and that is actually a much more lasting and to me fulfilling position to be in.

Well, I think that's also really interesting too when she goes in to talk about which we will talk about her marriage was in the beginning of her marriage. She was like, I'm too happy. Happiness does not beget great comedy. I think that we've all been there before.

Like when I am truly happy, I don't want to work on comedy. I don't want to talk about what upsets me or like the funny ways of what outrages me. I want to just live in the now and enjoy my life. But she's Joan Rivers. You can't do that. There's no time for that. And she is really, really tapping into full, she's gone full Joan Rivers at this point in her life. She's doing all these appearances on the Tonight Show, the Ed Sullivan Show, the Mike Douglas show, the Dick Cavett Show, you name it, just guest starring everywhere. Also, I really, I do find it funny, though, that on the Tonight

show, she was introduced not as a comedian, but as a, quote, girl writer. And it's because I think that that is lots of fun, that they wouldn't even say that she was a comedian. But what I love to is that Johnny Carson was

laughing so hard that he was crying. When he brought her over to the couch, he said, God, you're funny. You're going to be a star. Can you imagine if, like, the head of what held everything you could ever want, that He was the door. He's a kingmaker.

And he says that to you. I would just want to die right then. I can't get any happier than that. Especially because that means she probably doesn't have to give any more blow jobs. That was pretty much like the blessing of being like, well, your chits are small and you got a face that looks sort of like an old raccoon. But you know what? I have some, please.

But you know what? You got in, kid. I will also say, though, unfortunately, she did say in the last year of her life, Joan Rivers did claim that she slept with Johnny Carson to get on the Tonight Show. Yes. But apparently everybody says it's a lie. Yeah, do you think that's just part of the mythology? Yeah, I think it is.

Because the same with the Bill Cosby lie. That's not a harmful story to tell. Like, why not? No, and it's also weird now to think about that because, of course, we all know what Bill Cosby is now. But at the time, he was someone that overcame such diversity to get to where he had been that he was someone that everyone looked up to. And he did actually overcome the diversity. That wasn't the problem.

That doesn't change just because he's, you know, not having good experiences. But also at the time she became, so after that she became a writer for the Tonight Show. And she became a writer for the Ed Sullivan show. She wrote for the Topo Gizio sketches, which is the little Italian mouse puppet. Would you ever look up Topo Gizzo sketches?

I've seen some stuff like back in the day. It's very weird. It's very weird. It's very weird. People were entertained by very strange things back in the day, and that's saying a lot coming from where we're at today. But also, mid-60s, this is when she marries Edgar Rosenberg, just five days after he hired her to help rewrite a script for Peter Sellers, who apparently was really good friends with

Edgar Rosenberg. And there's a Peter Sellers movie and ended up serving as her manager for most of the of their marriage. Rivers said, I just knew he was absolutely correct for me. He was smarter than I was. And outwardly, he also had what I wanted. Manners, the facade, the credentials to walk into any room.

Yeah, he was a British TV producer. So he was very put together and everyone knew him. And then essentially he just took his whole career and made it all for her. Yeah. Which I think is something that she always kind of wanted. And so she also had to change her schick from being a frustrated single woman into being a married, frustrated woman. And now we look at that, it's like, oh, well, that's, it's not.

That's old hat. But it's not. At the time, it's like, women didn't talk about their husbands like this, you know, things like, you know, she said that she knew nothing about sex because all her mother said was that the man gets on top and the woman goes underneath. So I bought bunk beds. And things like that, that you just didn't, you weren't allowed. Women didn't talk like that. Right, which would have been so edgy at the time. Yes.

My honeymoon was a disaster. The next day, he screamed, don't tell me you can't cook either. I wrote down some of her one-liners because I think that they're very... They're great. Okay, so she makes her film debut in a small role in the film The Swimmer in 1968. She had a short-lived syndicated daytime talk show called That Show with Joan Rivers, which premiered in 1968.

Her first guest was Johnny Carson. but it did not last very long. Because she was always, like at this time, not only was Carson was her first celebrity guest, but she always credited him for the remarkable boost he had given her career. Sure. It was a constant that she gave homage to Johnny Carson

for what, because she never let him, like let it not known that he made her. Right. She would refer to him as her father. Like this is how tight they were, and this is how, and this is a bit of a, foreshadow, but Johnny Carson, he's cutthroat, man. He's the fucking serious.

He can make you, but he can also break you, as we're going to see here, not too long. It's almost like a god complex is bad. Interesting. This line about just female comedians in general, they hired women over their dead bodies. They just didn't want them to be there. Even popular comedians at the time, I guess, Tody Fields in the 60s, Elaine Boozler in the 80s couldn't get traction. Quote, I don't ever want to see that waitress on my show again.

Carson told his booker about Pusler when she was considered a top stand-up, the peer of Jerry Seinfeld. Waitress. Because he had a very specific idea because I think what he loved about Joan Rivers so much is that her comedy melded with his comedy and his persona to a T. And that's exactly what he was looking for. He wasn't looking for a successor with her. he was looking for an Andy Richter. He was looking for a sidekick. Like an extension of his ego.

Yeah, for him there is no after me. There's only me. Yes. For sure. So, yeah, she's now a professional guest spotter on shows like the Carol Burnett show, Hollywood Squares. She even narrated a regular segment for the electric company. She writes a Broadway show that made fun of NYC called Fun City

that only ran for nine performances due to bad reviews. And that is, by the way, validation. on Broadway was a massive thing for her. She always wanted to be taken seriously as an actress. She always, and, and, uh, it's not happening yet with Fun City, but it's definitely the first of many attempts to be welcomed into Broadway's arms. For sure. And she also now is to figure out other ways to use her comedy to make money in ways that

women, uh, female comedians had never done before, that she would write articles for parade, from anywhere from parade to playboy that she would talk about her sex life and and give sex, maternity wardrobe advice, decorating tips for her east side apartment. So it's, how brilliant is that, is to use, all right, okay, my life is changing and I always use my life as my comedy. So how do I make fun of this? I'm not gonna change, what I love about her is that,

I'm not gonna change who I am and how I'm evolving. I'm going to change what I write to how I evolve. And that is something that I think that people forget. that it's okay to change as a person. It's okay to grow as a person. I mean, all of us have worked together for so long. We have publicly grown. Our comedy has grown.

You should. I mean, you have to. If you don't, it's just stale garbage. It's just the same. You have to ride waves, man. And what's his name? Oh, God. Ugly.

He was dating like a 17-year-old. Henry Zabrowski. No, he never dated 17. Dane Cook. You look at a day. Thank you, Natalie. My God. Henry likes a mature woman.

Yes, he does like a mature woman. Dane, you look at a Dane Cook where he's doing the same material. He's doing the same thing. No one gives a fuck. You have to change. You have to grow. Yeah, it is not even about changing as much as evolving with, it's like staying true to yourself, but also acknowledging the rest of the world exists.

Exactly. And saying things like, what's the key to mind-blowing sex? Make sure the bathroom door is closed. You don't want to crack. You don't want it to crack you in the head when the bus stops short. There's a lot of weird. I just,

I love how, man, she fucked, dude. She had lots of sex, and that's irsome. She knew what a penis looked like. Woo, whoop, whoop, who, who, oh, am I making whoop right now? Whoop, whoop.

Did you say you saw the girl most likely to? I, yes, I did. The girl most likely to is a TV-made movie, made for TV movie that is starring Stalker Channing before she was Stocker Channing. And it was, there was this, I had read this anecdote about her in college that this dude came to pick her up for a blind date. And when he came to the door, he said to his friend, why didn't you tell me? And that's all he said.

And so she wrote this movie. I watched half of it. I got great cult status now. It's a weird movie where it's a kind of, I mean, you know, chubby in relative terms. A chubby fish out of water, black sheep, Stocker Channing goes to college, knows that she's quote unquote ugly and fat,

and then becomes a murderer. And she wrote this movie. And gets plastic surgery to look beautiful. To look beautiful. Hang in a second. Yes. Lots of plastic surgery to look beautiful. and then kills people because of it.

You can find it on YouTube. How have I not seen this movie? I don't know how I never, especially I love Stockard Channing. Is it supposed to be scary or is it a comedy? It's a comedy. Oh my God. It's a dark comedy. And apparently it bombed.

But I think it's great. Wow. Yeah, no. And it became a cult hit. Yeah, now it's a cult hit. It actually did, it said it did well in ratings. Oh, that's good. Maybe it just bombed with critics.

She also was writing a regular column for the Chicago Tribune. She wrote three times a week because she's insane. I can't believe how much. And I skipped some stuff, by the way. I just want to throw it out there of shit. She's done because there's too much to name. She's always working. She puts out her first book in the mid-70s,

which is called Having a Baby Can Be a Scream, that she described as a quote, catalog of gynecological anxieties. Then she goes on to direct her first film, a comedy called Rabbit Test that she wrote starring Billy Crystal about, quote, the world's first pregnant man. And Doris Roberts, who plays Billy Crystal's mother in the film, had this to say. She wasn't funny on set. It was all business.

It was the first time directing for her, and you didn't have time to fool around. Every minute counted. But what was so interesting is that she had the strength to be very clear and very focused. A lot of men on the set were annoyed with her, annoyed with her clarity, and her focus. The way the men treated her, you saw that they were not pleased to take comments from a woman, but she kept on going and doing it. One man was so furious he told her to get off the set. Get off this set.

She just ignored him. What, just what dude screamed that at her? Just a random man on the set? It's like this also at the same time. At the director. The director that, you know, we had touched on this a little bit earlier that she had performed pregnant on the Ed Sullivan show. And that was not only unheard of, but like women were supposed to be kept. it shrouded in shame that even apparently teachers had to stop teaching at the end of their second

trimester so as that the children could not know that she has had a penis inside of her vagina and in 1968 she had given birth to Melissa Rivers and as a joke she sent her infant child with a uniformed nurse to Johnny Carson's NBC office with a bow on her. And the sign around Melissa's neck red, Mr. Carson, this is for you. And then apparently, eventually she got the kid back. But, like, that's how much, like, that's, to send your infant baby as a, as a bit. She sent the baby as a bit. I mean, anytime anybody in this group of friends is going to have a baby, it's going to happen.

We're going to have to do so. Yeah, I'll put it in a box. I'll ship it to you and be like, go hang out with Aunt Natalie. That's how it works, right? I think so. So she's going up against it. Like to the fact that she had also, she had fought with Ed Sullivan about using the word pregnant.

He wouldn't allow her to use the word pregnant. It's wild because they wanted so badly for you to procreate and to make more people and to make more Americans and have all these kids, but also be super ashamed of it, I guess, pretty much. And so this is also, so with all of this turbulence and everything that she's going through, she starts to also again change her comedy. that she, her little black dress and pearl style morphed into feathered Bob Mackie's and Dallas hairdos, that she started to do more of the glam lifestyle while she's working with Johnny Carson,

and that her humor style morphed as well from jokes about her own foibles to skewering celebrities. Now, this is around the time when she was also getting big into targeting Elizabeth Taylor. And about, she wrote a book that had 850 facts. Liz jokes, like the woman puts mayo on aspirin. Like, her dress model was the Hindenburg. Like, her blood type is ragu. She was playing a character called Heidi Abramowitz. Oh, my God.

Is this dirty, loose-lipped, just a woman with a risky material, and she was having great success with it. This is now, by the way, the early 80s. She said, I think I represent women. I think women are frustrated around my stage in the game of life. I'm middle-aged. I'm in the middle of a good marriage, teenage daughter. A lot of the excitement in your life is gone. I live a very pedestrian life, and I think a lot of ladies out there live the same kind of life, and you get a little upset about it, and you think,

has it all gone by already? And she's, but she is fucking crushing it. She's, she's performing at Carnegie Hall doing a stand-up special called an audience with Joan Rivers that she put out, hosting SNL, putting out another best-selling comedy album that hits, number 22 on the U.S. Billboard 200, and she's nominated for a Grammy for Best Comedy Album with that as well. Wait, what year is this? Sorry, Hold on, what year is this? This is 1983, 84. All these things are

happening in the early 80s, and this is what leads up to. And during this, yeah, she was on the Tonight Show over a hundred times. Yeah. And so apparently their banter that, like, he was the straight, he would give the straight man lines, like, but don't you think men really like intelligence? And

her lobbing back the punchline, no man has put his hand up a woman's dress looking for a library car. I like the mayo on the aspirin one too. I just had to include some of them. Her one-liners are insane. Oh yeah, and she's got a fuck a million of them. If you watch a piece of work,

she's got just filing cabinet after filing cabinet of all of her jokes organized. It's insane. There's so much material in her apartment near the end of her life that it's like bewildering. And she's got it all all cataloged and everything. I mean, she's really like a machine. And so,

okay, let's get into it. We got to talk about it. This is the big. This is the big. Big turning point. I feel like there's two different timelines here. There's her taking this show and her not taking this show. And we're in the timeline where she takes the show. It is 1985 and 20th century Fox

announces the launch of a fourth television network. Yes, we're talking about a day and age where there were three TV networks and I believe that is CBS, NBC and ABC. Well, Fox This is before Fox was Fox. They want to debut with a show that they offer a late show that they offer to Joan Rivers to host. She's offered $10 million.

This made her the first ever female late night host. Also, around this time, she's getting frustrated because NBC execs are giving her weirdness. Also, apparently she was offered several shows in the time while working on. with Johnny Carson she turned down because she didn't want to destroy the relationship she had with Johnny Carson. Yeah, and so, but the NBC's treating her strange,

they, I feel, there was something that was like they renewed Carson for two years, but they only renewed her for one. Because you also have to remember, too, that she was the only recurring person that kept coming on Johnny Carson, kept coming on Johnny Carson. She assumed that she was being groomed

to take over the Tonight Show, which, why wouldn't you not assume? them that. Not just as a guest. Whenever Johnny Carson couldn't do the show, she was the go-to stand. The guest host. And that's the contract, I think, what I'm talking about is her contract as guest host. Permanent guest host, which was what she was.

But they were being wishy-washy with her and just kind of, you know, giving her the runaround. And so, yeah, they Fox makes this offer and she goes for it. Courtney Conti, which was a Fox executive at the time, said I met with Joan at her house in Bel Air.

She had just had dermo abrasion and her face was kind of raw. Edgar said, do not make her laugh. And of course, we were cracking up and she started bleeding at the corners of her mouth. She could cut you to ribbons, but then she showed so much love. She wasn't a screamer. Edgar was tough. Edgar was the bad cop. He was all about protecting her. Talk about loyalty. He brought new meaning to the word. Because he was her manager through all of this. He was the one that not only loved her and not allowed her to, but was I'm assuming aware of her extramarital affairs. She made lots of jokes about them and just stood by her.

Has there been any speculation that he perhaps was gay? I don't know, but I feel like in everything that I was reading about it, I never was hearing about his fun fancies on the song. So I would maybe think. I feel like you would know that. Maybe if anything asexual. Yeah, maybe. that he just and he did truly love her

yeah and through all of this she never told Johnny Carson because apparently other people had been offered other late night shows and he gave his blessing but she never told him because she didn't know if it was going to fall through and if it'd fallen through then he still might not want to work with her in the future and at that time she was in such what she probably felt like was a really rocky place

being in this like precarious female only woman in late night situation. She didn't want to fuck it up. But if she could only have known, like she was brought back over and over again because of the value she brought to the show. It was opening the audience to this whole new side of culture. And she really was actually very important.

So you must always know your value. Your value that they needed you as well. And everyone knew that Johnny Carson was very temperamental. And she wanted to be the one that told him first, and it was leaked to him. It was not of her own truth. It wasn't even like it was, it wasn't supposed to be out yet that she had taken the show.

Yes. And it was leaked to him before she was able to tell him. And he, in retaliation, bans her from ever appearing on the tonight show ever again. And she said, the first person I called was Johnny and he hung up on me and never, ever spoke to me again. And then denied that I called him. I couldn't figure it out. I would see him in a restaurant and go over and say hello.

he wouldn't talk to me. That's stupid. I think he really felt because I was a woman that I just was his, that I wouldn't leave it. That's the, that's the, I know this sounds very warped, but I don't understand otherwise what was going on. For years, I thought that maybe he liked me better than the others, but I think it was a question of, I found you, and you're my property. He didn't like that as a woman. I went up against him.

And so, yeah, this is a lifelong ban from the Tonight Show. So sort of. There's a little caveat to that, which we'll get to in part two. Well, in the next episode. But then that's what makes it so difficult. So the late show, which is Joan Rivers Show, it premiered on October 9th, 1986, and it immediately ran into trouble. So this is her new late-night show.

This is when she becomes the first female late-night host of a major television network. And Johnny Carson said that anyone that was booked on Joan Rivers Show would be, banned from Johnny Carson's show making booking celebrity guests nearly impossible which isn't that just like she had no shot she had no chance

you just couldn't let her go like you needed to like pursue this as though it was a scorned lover and that really what it was I do think that's true and that I have to say for me even personally coming into the film industry particularly in the stunt community in the early

2010s that was still a thing that fucking happened. I think it still does that. I'm sure. I'm sure. There's been a little bit more of an awakening because of the fucking nature of our society at the moment. But when I started out, I was treated like that with certain older stuntmen who I looked at as father

figures who would then go, oh no, you're my little pet. You have to do what I say. You are here because you are going to follow me around. And then if I tried to break from that, I was punished and was blacklisted. So like it was still, it still happens in the industry to this day, for sure. Which is ridiculous. Just be

And it's not even like she stabbed anybody in the back. No, she actually, it sounds like she turned down opportunities for herself because of that nonsense. But how do you turn down $10 million on a new network? And to make history again as well. Yeah. You know, and especially in the face of NBC really seeming like they were starting, and then the Tonight Show seemed like they were starting to turn their back on her a bit. And I think that she felt like she had to take this offer.

But I think her main thing is just that she didn't get to tell him before he found out. I think that's one of the biggest regrets she has. I don't think she necessarily regrets taking the show. Right. I think that she just wish she could have told him. Would there have been a different reaction from him, do you think? I don't think so. I don't fucking think so.

I think he would have been cordial to her when she told him and then still would have gone and done the same shit. That or I wonder if maybe since other people had talked to him in the past, that maybe since, because all these lists kept coming out of, who's going to take over Johnny Carson, who's going to take over Johnny Carson? And eventually was Jay Leno. And I think that he would have at least, maybe, maybe, and I'm saying in the most positive terms,

that he would have offered her the position to take over the show. If she had played nice for the, I don't think, I don't think he ever would have if she had not taken this. And, and I mean, obviously, obviously the night, late night scene is still very cut through it. It's not just with the female male dynamic. Because if you recall with the Conan Jay Leno situation, that got real ugly. It's ugly, man. It's territorial.

And you've got to be kind of a big dickhead to really rise to the top of that whole situation. Or go the way of like the Conan. But I know Conan's got to be fucking hard as well. I mean, that guy doesn't, you know what I mean? Have you ever watched the documentary that he put out? He's a fucking asshole. Yeah. Yeah.

Because I mean, to protect yourself. Yeah. And this is where not being an asshole really hurt Joan Rivers. Because as the ratings quickly declined for the late show, and her husband was the head producer of the show. So he was given this when she would. So that was part of what sweetened the deal for her to take this show, was that they're like, also your husband will be the head producer of it.

So when ratings were failing, the Fox executives came to her and said, you need to fire your husband. She refused to fire him. And then since she refused to fire him, they both were fired. And less than nine months after the show premiered. May of 1987. Yeah, it was done.

Yeah. A couple of fun little facts about the show as we're wrapping up here. Her close-up camera was purposely out of focus to avoid showing off any wrinkles. So the rest of the, all the other camera set-ups totally in focus, everything,

close up was slightly out of focus. Yeah, you got to. You got to an Insta filter. Well, they used to do Vaseline on the lens. Yeah. Before then. And I also really enjoyed this anecdote from Fox executive Kevin Wendell. One time we had a problem because Joan was saying the word shit on the air on live television. So I was dispatched to fly to Las Vegas where she was doing a show to meet with her

and let her know that when she came back to L.A., the S word was forbidden. The next day, Joan got back and went on the air live. And in her opening monologue, she said, I had a visit from one of the executives at Fox, and he told me that I can't say shit on the air anymore. So I'm not going to say shit anymore after tonight. Yeah. She's so funny. Joan.

I think this is probably where we should stop then before we get into the deep, dark, dark, the continued fall of Joan Rivers, but also the wonderful rise that will happen afterwards. Spoiler alert. Well, spoiler alert, yeah. Spoiler alert. But there's some. ill shit that's about to go down. So fucking check yourself

before you fucking straight up. Wreck yourself. This was a lot of fun though. And I think that I, you know, I don't think. I identify with Joan Rivers in a way that, except I don't,

because I'll never work as hard as she did. And I don't think I'll ever be able to overcome. I know I work hard, but this is. hard as Joan, man. We just don't work as hard as your rivers. Yeah. And it's just, I can't even imagine the amount of insecurity that she had about herself and about

what she was doing. And yet still, that driving force to succeed is something that scares me to a point that I worry that I don't have anywhere near that. I remember when I first told my mother that I wanted to act and do these kind of things. My mom was like, you're not strong enough. And that hurts. But also she's kind of true. You say, right, you go, thank you, mom, for giving me the fuel to spite you.

Yeah. Mother. And succeed in this career. I mean, technically that is exactly what, I mean, I'm doing. I don't know if you guys are doing this against your parents' wishes, but. Mine was definitely to make them love me. You know, but you got to use it. You got to use it, Holden.

He's what you got. And mine, no, we'll never understand my comedy, but they're pretty, they're actually surprisingly supportive, which I'm kind of mad at them about because I feel like not as successful because of it. Maybe you should tell them that. Tell them. I should. You were too supportive of me.

And that's why I hate you. As Jan just hops you in the face. Thank you guys so much for joining us on this first part of Joan Rivers. We'll have the second part to you next week and guaranteed it's going to be sad. Yeah. At times. But happy and sad. But also happy.

But also happy. And I'll probably get emotional reading some of the tribute quotes. There is a quote from Chris Rock that I cannot not tear up reading. every single time I read it. So if you left hearing Holden McNeely cry, Tudin next week. Well, same is with reading all of them. I'm reading a book by Melissa Rivers

about Joan Rivers right now, and it just makes me think about my mom. It makes you think about my mom. Also, before we go, our Midwest tour is going to be hot, January 9th, 10th, and 11th. It's not going to be hot. It's actually going to be very cold. It's going to be freezing cold.

Oh, my God. Milwaukee. Check it out. Last Podcast Network. dot com forward slash p7 live check us on on patreon patreon.com forward slash page 7 podcast. I'm Holder

McNeely you can catch me on these fucking fucking jacking people I don't give a shit anymore All straight rob you jerking people off? You giving people the alphabet? Oh yeah I'm giving everyone the alphabet treatment that's my 2020 resolution

Eat everybody out this year son Oh I did this. I'm sorry. Mine. My name is Jackie Surrowski. You can follow me on Instagram at Jack That Worm. My name is Natalie Jean. You can follow me on all that crap at The Natty Gene.

We love you guys. We'll talk to you next week. It's going to be said. Bye. Bye. Bye. This show is made possible by listeners like you. Thanks to our ad sponsors. You can support our shows by supporting them. For more shows like the one you just listened to, go to lastpodcastnetwork.com. com.