Page 7 - Pop History: Pee-wee Herman

Episode Date: March 3, 2020

We kick off our two-parter on Paul Reubens' iconic character by discussing Paul's childhood, early days at the Groundlings and "Pee-wee's Big Adventure".Want even more Page 7? Our Patreon supporters get weekly bonus content, support us today to help the show! Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes of Page 7 ad-free.Start a free trial now on Apple Podcasts or by visiting siriusxm.com/podcastsplus. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

I am, oh my God, Francis, I am, oh my God, Francis is your husband. I'm sorry, Natalie. I'm just going to go ahead and say it right now. Francis is your husband, a thousand percent. Oh, you think he don't know that? He, of course, he knows it. The entire time I was like, this is, that was my entire life growing up. Welcome, guys.

We are talking, I think that you saw the topic headline. We are talking about Paul Rubens, aka Pee Wee-Herman. We're mostly talking about the Pee-Wee-E-Hurman. side of Paul Rubin's. Right. We're not going to get too far into like blow or anything like that. We really want to tell the story of peewee. Yeah, because it is a very interesting from start and to still going on because as we will hear, oh one Miss Natalie Jean went to go see his very small tour that he is in the process of right now just a couple of days ago. That's right. So he's still at it. I forgot that's why we're recording on Sunday. Yeah, amazing. I'm so excited to hear about it. I am, this has been

such a delight for me. We'll get in two-hour gush. Hi, guys. I'm Jackie Zabrowski. I'm Natalie Jean. Ha-ha. I got in front of you. And I am Holden.

McNeely. Is that your version of Pee-Wee-Herman? Oh, that's you. Yeah, that's what he sounds like. Pewee-Herman sounds like this. I'm Pee-We-Hirman. No, you're not. That's what Holden thinks a little kid sounds like.

I guess. I'm sure that you, I think that we're all on the same page here that I idolize Peele Herman. He was such a huge part of my upbringing, too. And I still, even just sitting and watching all these videos, all the movies again, I mean, I watched, I watched Peewee's Playhouse for hours the other day. And I had a smile on my face the entire damn time. And all these memories kept flooding back because I've seen the movies 100,000 times.

But I haven't gone back and revisited Pee Wee's Playhouse in a minute. Which is a bit of a different beast. Completely. For me, it's all about big adventure. Yes. I watched that movie so much and getting to see it again today. And we'll talk more about it once we get to that movie. But I really seeing it today or seeing it this past week and really thinking about what it meant to me back then.

But also what it is just in general. It just nails this tone. It nails this vibe for a children's movie that is so unique and so different. It is the most unpredictable movie. I think ever made. Like, it is just like, you never know what the fuck

is going to happen next. Fuck, you said the secret word. Ah! So wait, is fuck the secret word today? Yeah, got right.

We're in trouble. That's going to have to stop and scream a lot. But yeah, it is just this amazing nightmare. It is so, the world of Pee Wee Herman, like when he leaves his hometown, the outside world is such a cynicism.

Mr. Evil, dark place. That's what is it, though? Holden. Yes, it kind of is. It is so hilarious, like, just how horrendous and fucked up, ah! Single, like, element of the real world is outside of his fun, crazy, you know, situation in his hometown. Yeah, I just miss movies. I think, like, Pixar's done a great job of cutting to real emotion stuff, cutting

to real sucks growing up kind of emotion stuff confronting death and Coco but there's something missing in films today for kids that Peewee's Big Adventure has and it really is genuinely just terrifying well also because

it's not it's for kids but it's not for kids but that's the genius of Peewey Herman is that it is subversive but in such an innocent way but also a naughty way but also accessible to children but also completely fun for adults to watch and it's so hard to strike that balance

most people can't do it no so for me I mean all right there were two parts that freaked me out the most and that would be when the bike first goes missing and that clown is laughing at him I literally with the waving okay yes which weirdly enough the clown doctors and I don't have a big issue with clowns this is the only clown that's ever really freaked me out to be quite honest with you and then

the and the clown doctors in the nightmare the clown doctors didn't mess with me me is bad. Oh, really? That was a scary part, but nothing compared to the weirdly enough, as a little kid, the laughing clown statue when he gets his bikes on, and of course, obviously, large, large. Okay, cool. Jackie, what about you? What are your

scary parts in the movie? I was always, I think this is more of like a sexual tension for me, but I was always scared and completely mystified by the dude that picks him up. What's his name? The mattress tag guy. The mattress tag guy. I was always completely in love with him. but terrified of him.

And I remember I would always get really close to the screen when he was on because I was completely, I was so drawn to him and terrified of him. This is a dive into your psyche. I think that, right? Because even watching you get him just like, because now I'm just like,

why did I think that that was so scary and alluring? I have no idea. And of course it was the clown doctors in Large March. Okay. Oh, was there any more? Sorry. And Francis, but that's just because, again,

Francis reminded me. of Henry. Of the sort of emotional abuse you suffered as a child in the hands of Natalie's husband. Since we just got to watch it again, which I've seen it a million times, but I got to really revisit. I noted the things that scared me as a kid. So there was in the magic shop when he's doing the different sized heads. Yes.

That is Alistair Crowley's head, that giant one. Yeah, that scared the shit out of me. Obviously the large marge scene. The clown, the only clown that scared me was that. the doctor who pulled his thing off his face and he had the clown mouth. What's that? It's what it is.

And then, yeah, and the snakes. I was not afraid of snakes. I was not, I still not, but the fact that you could tell Paul Rubens was genuinely afraid of those snakes scared the shit out of me. I forgot about that pet store part and I was dying laughing it. It is just so out of nowhere. It's so funny. Natalie and I both read Inside Pee We's play

House, the untold unauthorized an unpredictable story of a pop phenomenon. What an interesting book. Oh, yeah. But I'd love to that they talked about because Paul Rubens actually is very terrified of snakes. So he had, and Tim Burton kind of forced him to do it anyway. And he did actually pass out, what, twice while they were rehearsing? Because he didn't want to touch the snakes. Wow. I'd feel that way if it was spiders. Yeah. Yeah. I just love that Tim Burton made him do it anyway. And especially in, as we tell this tale of the creation of Pee Wee Herman, it's so interesting because he had such complete control over what happened with the character. The fact that when he was on sets and when he was working with other people,

he did usually open up of like, okay, well, if that's what you want, like they don't control the character and what the character does. But they did lend himself to being controlled by the, like the actions of, of Pee-Wee Herman. And I thought that that was actually a good, like, I kept waiting for it to be like, and then he was a piece of garbage, right? He's screaming, I'm Pee-Wee-Herman.

God damn it. But he didn't get to that point. I think it's because Prince scarred me. Yeah, you were just, but that's great. You anticipate the worst, and then it doesn't seem that bad after. And it's delightful. But what a wonderful way to grow up.

And if I ever have children, I know they are going to be subjected to watching lots of Pee-We-Herman. And it's actually down to, I realize now in watching the, like, Pee Wee's Playhouse, of, I wanted that. I remember I had painted the inside of one of my doors red because I wanted it to be like Peewee's playhouse. Like the kind of things, like taking whatever little elements I could to make it. And I would pretend like the chair would talk.

But then it was also really backwards from Look Who's Talking to when the toilet talked. And then that, then Cherry started to scare me. Man, they made a lot of shit talk when we were kids. They really did. They love to make inanimate things talk. I think that we really grew up in the best time of having the shit scared out of us by things that were technically supposed to be for kids. And that's why I want the world to start scaring children again in films and things because for some reason, I think that it's important and I don't know why. But it made the movie really feel like a roller coaster ride.

It made a lot of his stuff feel that way because you just were always on the edge of your seat. You were like, I love this character and this world, and this is so made for me. And then they would just rip the rug right out from under you with some terrifying image or moment. And even Large Marge, this past time watching it, Lexi was not home. It was nighttime. I was watching the movie. And when the Large Marge part happened, I was just like, oh, I remember when this used to scare the hell out of me. Good thing, I'm an adult now, and this kind of stuff doesn't get to me.

And then I literally like, I was watching, I'm to actually, no, I like, I might need to turn the lights on right now. This is still legitimately scary. in a children's movie. Well, it's the same with in Pee Wee's Big Holiday and watching that, again, the newest one, when the women's faces started to melt and morph like he had taken acid. I forgot about that part. And it was like, why, why, why, why? Okay, it's fine.

Which is great that it can still do this to me. Now, before we get into the beginning of the actual creation, just this, this quote stuck out to me that a professor was writing about Peewee, Herman, and Paul Rubens. And he had said, it always struck me as one of the most bizarre progressions of modern culture that a strange midnight comedy act full of sexual ambiguity and subversiveness. In the original act, Pee We had mirrors on his shoes so he could look up girls' skirts would have evolved into the most important children's TV show since Sesame Street. This is such an insane. This is a late night comedian that fell into becoming a child's host.

This is not where he thought his life was going to go. He was kind of just riding the train. And what an inspiration to other comedians of, you know, sometimes you just got to follow it and see where it fucking takes you. And he really did. So let's start about, let's talk about Paul Rubens. All right. Paul Rubens grew up in Sarasota, Florida. His parents owned a lamp store.

Also, Sarasota is where the winter headquarters of Ringling Brothers Barnum and Bailey Circus were, which he loved to frequent. He also loved watching reruns of I Love Lucy, which was his first big comedy influence, which I think makes a lot of sense. I love this about Rubin's childhood neighbors included lion tamers, high wire artists, and little people. Exentricity was the norm. One day, they heard the explosion. And this is Paul Rubin saying this quote. And we saw a man shooting through the sky in between two houses. And we were later to find out it was the Zikidi family.

and they were shooting each other out of cannons in the backyard. And we had heard that for a couple of months and didn't know what it was, which of course comes into play later on in Big Top Peewee. And as another movie that was ripped apart for some reason. But you know what? I watched it 100,000 times as a kid. Henry was just talking about how it was, he saw that more because it was one of those shows or movies that was on rotation on HBO.

All the time. We watch it all the time. And it like, I have a lot of memories of get-togethers for camp. or something like that, and it was just that movie that they would put on during those. They had the VHS, the one tape that they put on. Yeah, like at a lock-in or something like that.

Oh, yeah. Man, I forgot about lock-ins. Right. What a nightmare to lock up with your children into a place overnight. Sorry, that's a whole thing. They're like getting us prepared for kidnapping. Absolutely.

I didn't mean to jump to Big Toppa, we will get there. About I Love Lucy, Paul Rubin said, I wanted to be Little Ricky. I would sit on the floor in Oneonta, New York, it's a four-year-old, and think, how am I going to get to Hollywood? What am I doing here? When I went to college, I wanted to be avant-garde and weird.

I got some of that going, which you definitely did. He definitely did. I actually connect to that, for sure, and that's definitely where he started out, where it's like you start out. I always say that there are two types, at least when I was coming up in comedy, there were two types of comics their first year. They were either Andy Kaufman or Bill Hicks. That was one of the two. one. That's what you're going to be your first year. And then you find your voice and like... And you figure something else out. And I was totally

Andy Kaufman. I was just like, I'll just, I'm so afraid of actually writing jokes, so I'll just weird the audience out for my 10 minutes and get off stage. I mean, you definitely did that with, what did you, you had a... I made everybody clap their hands very slowly in unison, and then I would fall to the floor. I'd want to clap your hands. And then I would collapse to the floor and dry hump the floor while moaning

until they stopped. Wait, when was this? That was my big closer, my stand-up set. What age range was in your 20s? Yeah, yeah. That was my big closer. You know what, Alden? I saw you do it many times and I laugh. Every time.

People wouldn't stop. I was shocked. They would just keep clapping. And eventually sometimes I'd be like, all right, I'm done. So at the age of five, he asked his dad to build him a stage on which he and his two siblings would put on plays. Adorable. Which I think is so cute. And they would have like red lights for when they did a, like, when they did a stage.

seen in hell or something like that. He had neighborhood kids showing up. The whole rule, though, was he had to be in the play if they were going to put on a production on that stage. So then they just started killing him off in the first act if they were to put the playoff. Which is pretty hilarious. In high school, he was president of the National Thesbian Society,

and he went to Boston University for college and then the California Institute of the Arts after that. And after college, he joins the groundlings in L.A. and becomes friends and comedy partners with, oh, the greatest ever. It makes me so sad every time I see his name, Phil Hartman. I'm gonna go ahead and say as someone that I loved Pee Wee Herman so much, I didn't realize how much of writing partners and an influence.

Bill Hartman was in all of it. I honestly had no idea. And then in reading this, it just kept getting me all choked up. It's like, when is the Phil Hartman episode? I want to do that one. I know. I know. It's just going to be so fucking sad, best.

I will cry so hard during that episode. I love Phil Hartman. I love him. So he, the groundlings, of course, if you don't know, it's an improv and sketch school based in L.A. that was formed in 1974 by a man named Gary Austin using an approach to improv largely influenced by Viola Spolens techniques that helped actors be more present in the moment to find choices as they would in real life using theater games. Congratulations, audience. You don't have to get a theater degree now. I mean, that's pretty much most of what we learned.

Yes. Come on. We rolled around on the floor and cried about our mothers and voice class. Oh, no, and I did have a mask class where I created a serial killer character and I would write in my journal. Actually, it was a lot of fucking fun.

Natalie. I have a dance degree. You think I'm talking fucking down to? I mean, I'm going to go ahead and say a dance degree probably a bit more challenging. I think a lot more challenging than what we did in theater school. But you never know.

I said fuck. Oh. Okay, we can't do this. I think it's kind of fun. Also, the California Institute of the Arts at this point in time, I don't know if it still is, was big into performance art. And so this is really where Paul Rubin started thinking, which we will see again and again throughout this episode. He viewed Pee Wee Herman as performance art. That this was a complete separate entity from who he was, but also a part of him.

Yeah. And to the point. We haven't even talked about creating the character, but just to add to that, to the point where that is why he went to such great lengths to make sure that people really thought Peewee was a real person and they didn't know that there was actually a guy named Paul Rubin's. I mean, Pee We Herman is listed as himself in the movies and everything.

Growing up, I thought he was Pee We Herman. In my head, he was Pee B. Herman. This day, his actual person stays really private. He doesn't have a lot of, you don't get a lot of a view into his life. Yeah. Right. And he's very, in interviews, he is so, he says no to more questions in interviews than I've ever seen, like, he would just be like, I don't really think so. Like, there would be this like long, overly worded question.

They'd just be like, I don't really think so. I don't really know. Which is great. It's like his answer. And yes, he is very, sometimes to a point where you can feel and you can feel how sensitive Paul Rubens is in every interview of how he takes a lot of questions, which is why he would do a lot of his interview. as Pee-Wee-Herman because he was able to freely discuss his life and his wants and his needs as Pee-Wee Herman. He's so cool. He is so cool.

Oh, he made me feel like I fit in. I know, seriously. Quick side-note before we get into him creating Pee-wee. Before Pee-wee, you can see this on YouTube, by the way. Rubens did some appearances on the Gong Show in different fashions. One was like a guy-girl kind of side-k, duo. kind of comedy bit or whatever. And just all sorts of just, it's so bizarre to watch.

And it's just Rubens being real goofy and ridiculous. He went on the gong show 15 times. I didn't realize there was that many. 15 times. And I think he won a good amount of those times. Because if you guys are not aware, this is a show. It was like a talent show that essentially he would go on with other groundlings people and apply to be on it as characters doing like the things that they're really good at.

And if they're not good at it, they get gonged off the show. And the first time he went on it, he was working with a comic Charlotte McGinnis, and they had a duo called the hilarious Betty and Eddie. You can look it up. It's delightful. And they won $500 and were immediately invited back. So it was actually a really great way for struggling comedians and actors to make a quick buck just to go on the gong show if you could get on it. It seems like a much more organic version of America's Got Talent. where you didn't have to actually produce an entire, you know, $10,000 crew and costume it and like do all this stuff.

And have pyrotechnics and all the ones. And then get on America's Got Talent. Yeah. So while at the groundlings, Rubens creates his peewee persona during one of the above-mentioned exercises, or previously rather mentioned exercises back in 1977, in which the group created characters one might see in a nightclub act, with him approaching it under the premise of a man who wanted to be a comic but was horrible at it. In this performance, he did the signature laugh as well as the catchphrase, I know you are, but what am I?

I know you are, but what am I? I know you are, but what am I? I've definitely used it in fights before. Yes, for sure. As a kid. And you know what? Maybe I should start using it now. It's one of those things that can just make you go.

It's like when you also copy whatever somebody just said. That makes me. I think it makes everyone I don't know any person. It still does. Just thinking about it. I can't have kids. No. Because I'll fucking punch them. Only thing you can do to combat it is to not talk which is the last thing you want to do in that moment

is not say anything because you're so mad at the person. And then they win. They immediately win. And they win. They always win every time. So also for the peewee voice, back in 1970, he did a stage production of Life with Father and in which he was cast as an annoying character and that is where he developed his pee-wee voice initially.

What I love about this is that, so the voice came from that show, but it was not the voice he was originally doing for the show at the beginning of the run, to the point that it was driving everyone crazy because he just saw it because he was supposed to be the younger, or he was either younger or the oldest brother in it. And he just started, can you imagine, it's a straight play that he is in,

and then he starts talking like that in the middle of the, of the run and they did understand and he said and I was like wow it is really different from the beginning of the run so the voice came from that that's peewey's voice I didn't know you know I didn't know you weren't supposed to like change it completely into a cartoon it was unwitting unwittingly I did it unwittingly and I think that that's it's just kind of fun it just really pissed everyone Winningly. So Phil Hartman and fellow groundling John Paragon really help Rubens develop his character. The last name actually came from his childhood harmon.

Or the first name, rather, came from his childhood harmonica, which was Peewee branded. And Herman apparently was just this super annoying kid that he grew up with, which makes so much sense. Yes. His name's Herman. Of course, Herman sucks. So, yeah, that's how we pulled that together. Gary Austin, the Groundling's founder, actually made Peewee's first gray suit by. hand with an unknown individual giving him the little red bowtie right before the show.

And apparently it really bothered his mother and his grandmother that suit. And he said, my grandmother for many years during my early success would always call my mother and go, please let me buy him a suit. She never understood that the suit was purposely bad and didn't fit me. And also, are you going to talk about just Jeff? Oh, yeah, no, we should. We're definitely going to talk about because I wanted to talk about some of the other characters he was doing at the time. And that was another character he was, he had created, do you remember about Just Jeff from the book? I thought it was how he started, how he started developing Pee-wee. Well, that was, it was for that same exercise that he had created Pee-wee from when

he, like, he had to create a stand-up comedian. So he created Just Jeff, who was an 18-year-old that would sit in the back of the theater because he, quote, unquote, couldn't perform because he was under age. And then he would... The comedy store, right? Yeah, at the comedy store. And then he would like sneak up after everyone had already gone up and perform. And he was this 18 year old kid who would not tell them his last name.

And he went by Just Jeff. And he was this weird, like, tertiary character at the comedy store. And like, he would at the end of the night be allowed to go up because he couldn't before they stopped serving alcohol. And he would just bomb every time. And he just kept... He had props, which is how if you see the original brothels. version of Peewee. He comes out

and he does like all of his toys. Oh, he's a toy. And that is apparently what just Jeff did on stage every night at 2 a.m. That is so funny. And he does that on his first appearance on Letterman as well. He just brings a cardboard box out. All of his toys.

Because he keeps saying over and over again. He's like, he didn't view himself as a standup because he knew in real life as well as Peewee Herman, he was bad at telling jokes. He's like, I would always miss up an element of the joke. I never was good at writing jokes, which is why he created a persona instead. Because at the same time, he was also doing a character called Joe Longtoe, who was a

Native American chief with a propensity for dancing on his toes, which is where the tequila dance comes in. Yes. Oh, my God. The tequila dance is so fucking, that whole sequence is so funny. That's so amazing. I think even from that time, he understood the physical comedy of his bird-boned body. Like he's so wiry and long and he's actually pretty tall and just all limbs and it makes it very funny to see him move around like that.

And at this point in time, too, Gary Austin, who is the creator of the groundlings and Phil Hartman both came out and had said many times throughout this history that they never thought that Pee Wee was his best character. What Gary Austin says, I never thought it was his best character. I thought he had better ones. It just turns out that for whatever reason, that's the one he's the one he. he chose to really pursue and made his career. And what Pee We Herman, or what Paul Rubin says about Phil Hartman is that Phil always loved Pee Wee Herman, but he used to give me a hard time originally about focusing on this instead of doing all of my other characters. I like the idea of becoming peewee and letting the public think Pee Wee was a real person. Phil was very frustrated by that. He

thought I was squandering my talent. I want to make a quick correction on myself. It wasn't the Broadway show when he pulled the box of toys out. It was his original show they recorded at the Roxy in Los Angeles in 1981. And then when he reprised it, when he reprised it on Broadway, the more recent one of the HBO special, I believe, does he not? I thought he did that. I don't usually has his toys pretty close. I don't think he does the box because I just watched it. We're all going to get a bunch of hate mail for people about this damn box of toys, Natalie.

It's kind of fun though because it is so interesting because you remember certain facets of like, okay, was that in big top? Or was that when Pee-Wu was doing this other thing? Because he is the same character in very different environments and seen in very different ways. There's no canon. It's all completely different stories. So it's difficult to keep them all straight. That sets up my quote perfectly.

This is what Rubens had to say about Pee-Wy. To me, there was a conceptual aspect of Pee-Wy. If you thought Pee-Wy was a kid, fine. If you thought Pee-Wy was a man trying to be a kid, great. If you thought Pee-Wy was developmentally challenged, fine. Whatever. He just is. But just to show you how he was

so undefinable in this way that I think fascinated adults and children. It was so accessible too. It was just somebody that you could connect to so much and it has worked through the generations which they'll talk about when I talk about the show when we went out to see last week. Yeah.

Hell yeah. Also in 1979 and Rubens tested the character out on the dating game which is amazing. He apparently said he went out to audition for the dating game and he got a callback before he could even get home they loved him so much and I think he did

a few appearances I had a harder time actually finding those appearances on YouTube he got two dates out of it though yeah that's the most we'll ever know about his love life he does not talk about that shit I love that one because like the dating game you know you have to list all of the things that you like to do so he would list

the likes of Peewee Herman and none of him of just like all the silly things he liked to do and that a woman, you know what, I'm going to go and say it. If someone was giving me all of those kind of things, I'm like, well, at least it'll be fun. Yep. I'll go on a date with that. I'll go ride a roller coaster with this kid.

Yeah. So actually, through failure comes great success, as it tends to do. It drives people. And back in 1980, Paul Rubens got very close to being a cast member on S&L. He was one of the 22 finalists from across the country. But they gave it to Gilbert Godfrey instead, which was a lot of. a double whammy for Rubens because they did have a similar, just huge performance style that made it like, oh, I'll, you know, they, yeah, they picked the other version of him.

The other weird skinny nerd. Well, and that's what I said, yeah, he said it's not going to be me and Gilbert. We were the dorky, nerdy, weird guys, which, yes, that's exactly it. So, super frustrated by this, Rubens decides to borrow money and start his own show in L.A. A late show, like, essentially competing with S&L, and he cobbles together around five, thousand dollars to do so with the help from groundlings like john paragon phil hartman and lynn marie stewart now this is where this idea of so we will see it a couple of times later on we'll see it with phil hartman and this is a time where there was a tv producer that had come to him

as he was formulating peewee herman her name is donna coffman she had asked a friend of hers cassandra peterson who would who was a member of the groundlings and would later become cult icon elvira Hell yeah. She asked her because she had this great idea for a late night show. And Cassandra Peterson recommended Paul Rubens. What Donna Kaufman said, I thought it would be wise to come up with a late night show that couldn't be touched by the censors

because we would never say a naughty word and we would never have any explicit sexuality. We wouldn't have anything we would be attacked for. Everyone would know what we were talking about, but we wouldn't be directly saying anything that would put us at risk. she was the one that came to him with this idea. But it is difficult to find that out

because Paul Rubens doesn't like to include that in the story. And the same way with Phil Hartman and later on when Phil Hartman sues him, where they both had big hands in creating where Pee Wee Herman had gotten to and he doesn't acknowledge them very often. Which I also, if you think about it, it is him.

And that's got to be hard to say, well, no, no, we all did this together because at the end of the day, he is the one that has to do it. He is the one that has to be it. And I think there also is an element of show business that when you're younger and starting something like this, you don't fully grasp,

which is you have this team, you love them, you care for them, they've helped you through everything, and you go, I'm taking you all with me, we're all going to do this together. And then as soon as bigger hands come into the pot, that completely breaks it apart and there's so many things that have

so many elements that come into play where you can't take every person and you're getting pressured by different people and there's all these things getting thrown in there that you end up hurting people sometimes very unintentionally but it's not usually a malicious I never got anything from Paul Rubin's

that was a malicious like I'm gonna use you up I totally agree with you Natalie also really quick side note guys can we maybe like do an episode on Elvira, maybe like during the month of October. Of course we are. I don't know if I told you this, but I've already decided this for us. So, done. The fact that I didn't realize she was in

groundlings. Yeah. I know. I really I mean, come on. I love Elvira. Anyways, going back to the show, the stage show featured several characters that would go on to appear in Playhouse years later, including Captain Carl, Jombie the Jeannie, Miss Yavon, Terry the Teradactal, and Clocky, of course. The show gets

actually popular enough to get a following at the Roxy Theater, which was opened back in 1973, generally known as a music venue. And still there to this day. Yeah. Oh, yeah, baby. Totally. What Paul Rubin said about this time,

he had said the Pee We Herman show actually developed out of spite that I didn't get Saturday Night Live. I was so upset. And people, I literally was thinking to myself, I'm going to go from this like up-and-comer guy to like, you know, the guy sitting out in front of Rite Aid, tucking on your pant leg going like, can you help me out without ever having anything going on?

from that all the time. I mean, really, yes. And I love that it's like, can you, because I think that we've definitely have all been there and a part of the reason why we've gotten to where we've gotten to is because you're like, well, no one's opening any fucking doors for me. Yeah. But I guess I better open the door for myself. All of my successes have come out of fear and desperation and rejection, starting from when I got kicked out. The best thing that ever happened to me, I still say this is when

I got kicked out of acting school back in college. Absolutely. That was the big change in the timeline for me that really got me to where, you know, with murder fist and everything after that. Also, the second best thing is when I gave my brother a prince box set on vinyl. 1999, I gave it to him. I hate you. The best thing never happened to me was not getting into the dance program that I desperately wanted to. And I was forced to leave Pittsburgh.

I don't know if I ever would have left. We have to be thankful for the thing. Sometimes, you know what, you gotta take the change even though it's hard. Rubens also had this to say about the stage show. I never viewed the adult version of the show, which was done at midnight and was an homage to 50s children's television shows as solely for adults. I tried to make it so that the act carried over into the version that wound up on CBS on Saturday mornings.

And if a kid had seen the original version and caught something in the Saturday morning version, he might be able to laugh at something dirty because he caught the reference. And if a kid didn't know, it flew right over his head. I always designed things to be double entendre's, so it could be appreciated either way. I never really viewed it as, oh, this is the adult version and this is the kids' version. In fact, when we were doing the adult version, I tried to make it for kids. And as soon as I had a real kid show, I tried to add enough stuff to make adults remain interested in it, which I think it shows. Oh, yeah.

Did you guys, had you seen the 1981 HBO special previous to, doing this episode? I didn't think that I had until I was watching it and was awash with emotions that I definitely had. I think I just came across it in the late 90s, early 2000s as it was on HBO. And it is so fucking funny still. It's so funny. And you can watch it. It's just on YouTube now. You can find it. And I really recommend you go look at it because if you've not seen this, it is the birth of the people. It's an adult show. Yes. Wee's Playhouse kids show, but it is, it's a slight twist on it, but it's so funny and it's four adults and there's little tiny, like just like what you're saying, when they're trying

to build that show that's not dirty but sturdy. It's got just those funny moments in it, like the section where Miss Yvonne is slapping the makeup on her face because she wants to, Captain Carl. For Phil Hartman, yes. I love. It's so fucking good. And especially the thing, because at the time was like, oh my God, I bet they were so. young can you imagine me this they in 81 he was 29 years old yeah no they were so good at it's because they had years and years of experience working together and that is the dream especially you know as sketch people it's the we wait we all get to do this and then make money yeah we can make money

off of this yeah and i will say the HBO special it's exposed him to a wider audience but it was actually more his appearances on late night with david letterman in the early 80s that really made him more of a household name leading up to the film. Letterman, this is my favorite quote from doing any research on this topic. This is so funny to me. This is what David Letterman had to say about why he loved having pee-wee on so much. What makes me laugh is that it has the external structure of a brady little precocious kid, but you know it's being controlled by an incubus, the manifestation of evil itself.

That's so fun. It is. Of course it is. The fact that Paul Rubens keeps saying that Pee-wee is a separate entity, but also it is a part of his being because it's a part of his soul. That's a scary look into the inside of a full-grown man. Now, at this time, Pee-Wy-Herman as a character is gaining more and more traction, and the Roxy Theater is going so well. Was Chicheng before the Roxy Theater? No, it's after.

It's after. After. Yeah. Or around the same time, maybe even. He might have been doing the show and then did the, yeah, he does have a bit part in a Cheech and Chong film. Yes. And even though he was great on Letterman, now Warner Brothers was interested in possibly doing a movie with him. And at this point in time, they were worried that Pee Wee Herman wouldn't have enough presence in the national mainstream because of his limited fan base to sell a movie.

The question was, would people want to pay to watch more than a few minutes? of Pee-We-Herman's antics. So what did they do? So this is a desk time. Paul Rubens and Phil Hartman and Mike Varl, who was another dude at the groundlings that the three of them worked with, are working on the script for Peewee's big adventure

during the week. And on the weekends, Paul Rubens goes on tour with the Pee-We-Herman party, a 22 city tour. And what happens at every single show was sold out. And the last show

was in Los Angeles and Warner Brothers came to him backstage. Phil Hartman hands on the hands on the script and they go, all right, we'll do it. And all he had to do was go and do 21 sold-out shows to really clinch the fact that he was going to get this movie deal. So initially, his script is a remake of Pollyanna, which is a Disney Live action film starring child actor Haley Mills as the role Peewee would have played about a cheerful orphan that changes the outlook of a small town, which Rubens has said is his actual favorite film.

Delightful. Have you seen it? Have you seen it? Birthday twins. Yeah. I have not seen. I've never seen Pollyanna, but I remember all of the clips, like the little teaser things in front of, I think, most Disney movies we had on VHS.

Yeah, I feel like I've seen moments of that movie, but never the whole thing. No. But I did see Parent Trap a hundred million times. Oh my God. I saw Parent Trap a bunch. While writing this Pollyanna script, however, Ruben's notices that everyone at Warner Brothers gets a bike to get around the back lot. So he asked for one as well because, of course, a studio lot is like very spacious and spread out.

That's why you know, you have golf carts, stuff like that. It's not really a walkie kind of situation a lot of times because you just have to go so far to get to where you're going on a studio lot. So they give Paul Rubens a refurbished 1940s Schwinn bicycle, which made him abandon his script. This bike was so awesome. He made him abandon his script. and write one with Phil Hartman and Michael Varrhal.

Now this script is loosely based on the bicycle thief, a highly acclaimed Italian neo-realist drama from 1948 about a man searching for his stolen bike in post-World War II Rome. Just like it. I had no idea that it was based on the bicycle thief that's like super serious acclaimed film. Rubin said, I turned in the script of the movie with a list of about 200 directors.

I had gotten out of a director's book, who I thought were good. The studio then settled on one director, Of course, this is classic studio shit right here. The studio then settled on one director who wasn't on my list and that I thought was absolutely wrong. I made a stupid stink to my manager about it and my manager said, are you crazy?

You have a green light approved movie if you go with this guy they are asking for. I said, I'm sorry, it's not the right guy. I spent 15 years getting to this point. I got to have the right director. I mean, he's right. He's right. Someone who can put their own stamp on it.

So I went to a party and somebody at the party who had just seen Frankenweeney, Tim Burton's short film that he made for Disney. Shelly Duvall was in Frankenweeney, and I knew Shelley, and so I called Shelly, and she said, oh, my God, Paul, you and he are so perfect together. When I screen the short film the next day, I knew in the first six shots that I wanted him to do it. It was absolutely incredible. It was the biggest piece of luck early on in my career that I could have had. We were completely simpatico.

He was 26 years old at the time. That's so crazy. He was 20. Right. Tim Burton's first feature. length movie. My friends would come on the set and go, which one's the director? And I'd point him out and they'd go, come on, no, where? Where's the real director? It's, so I feel like in throughout this research, it really fills in all of the facts of why I was so obsessed with

Pete Ehrman. He was with all the weirdos that we wanted to be. Even the fact that he's friends with Shelley Duvall, like, that makes so much sense. The fact that at this point, in time is when he really started hanging out with Prince. Not to bring in the other one of our episodes. And that also makes so much sense. And also he had a huge link into the punk scene. And there were a lot of punk musicians who were working throughout the, like the, even back to the HBO special time.

And so he always had these really fucking cool musicians in all of his, his work. Well, and actually he's very open with the fact that he wanted to, he lived within the realm of the punk world because he was working with Gary Panter at the time, who was the one that was creating all of the poster work and who will eventually make the entire set for Pee Wee's Playhouse. We'll get into that a little bit more later. And his wife, too. What's interesting, too, about Burton is that it is a fascinating, like, it is a huge risk

for him. Frankenweeney, it's a live action short released in 1984 about a boy who tries to bring his dog back to life after it was run over by a car. Disney straight up fired Burton after this film is finished, as the company felt it was a total waste of the resources and that the film was not at all suitable for young audiences. I loved Frankenweedy when they made it into a full-length movie. I love Frankenweeney.

It's like, yeah, it was, so this is like, all he's done so far is technically a failure, you know? And I also loved, I saw another quote from Rubin saying, like, he could tell just by the wallpaper in the boys' room at the very beginning of the film that that was the director for him. because Tim Burton had style. And that's what he was looking for. Yeah, he was looking for that unique style

that he was also bringing to the world as Pee-wee. And Richard Abramson, who's one of the producers of Pee Wee's Big Adventure, had said about Tim Burton and Paul Rubin's working together. They said that Tim Burton and Paul Rubin's working together was smooth sailing. Tim had more influence on the look and the characters surrounding Paul than on the way Paul performed as Peewee. Tim Burton added the clown stuff. Actually, we had to cut it back a bit because it was getting too dark.

If you look at everything Tim has done, Big Adventure is the brightest film he ever directed. It is. Which is true, but it also makes so much sense of like, because then it's like large a marge and the other things that are brought in of these darker elements and fuse the environment of Pee Wee Herman and Tim Burton's. It's exactly what Paul Rubin's wanted with this movie. You can make color really weird and creepy. Like Edward Dissor-Hia. Yeah, yeah, totally. Edwards is her hands, right.

And also, after Burton is signed on, Phil Hartman, Varhall, and Rubens rework the script using the book. I just want to highlight this, the book Screenplay by Sid Field as a reference point. And I have also read this book, and it greatly helped me when it came to my approach to screenplay writing. It really just gives you the basic rules. This needs to happen on this page. This needs to happen on this page. Rubin said it's a 90-minute. film. It's a 90-page script. Rubens explained on page 30, I lose my bike. On page 60, I find it. It's

literally exactly what they said to do in the book. So if you are curious about writing a screenplay but you feel intimidated or you feel like you have no idea what's going on, that's a great reference to use and it's worked for a lot of people. I also believe Tina Faye used it to write Mean Girls. That was the book she read and then she wrote that. So the film is shot all over the place in California as well as San Antonio, Texas. And it's actually, Tim, Burton who is a fan of oingo boingo and so asks the frontman Danny Elfman to compose the score and I just have to say upon my recent viewing I had to real like how important that score is to that movie being as good as good as it is and you know one thing and we'll talk about Peewee's

Big Holiday but one and that was actually done by Mark Mother's Ball but in comparison to the fucking big adventure score it just doesn't it's just like feels deflated well you could say that Tim Burton is really only Tim Burton because of Danny Elfman. I mean, it's kind of like hand in hand. And this is the crazy, simpatico, like, unbelievable, just the fates all coming together between Rubens, Elfman, and Burton. It is just like. Lightning and a bottle.

Together. And so now that Tim Burton is working with Pee Wee Herman, he brings in Danny Elfman. And Danny Elfman said, I did a demo on a four-track tape player. playing all the parts, and I made a cassette and sent it to him and never expected to hear from him again. But that piece of music became the main title of Pee We's Big Adventure, and it got me the job. I was really shocked. So he had this conversation, just away home, made the opening theme for Pee Wee's Big Adventure and sent it him. And he's just like, done, yeah, come on.

And it really does fit so perfectly the style of the movie with the, you know, I did it earlier in the episode, but that that bam, bam, bam, bam, bra, but then it just goes from, it goes from loud. to quiet back to loud so seamlessly and so perfectly that you're constantly caught off guard by it and constantly in a state of like again just not knowing what the fuck's going to happen next and being like you know what I mean it's just not and again that's what I love so much about this movie is I just feel like it is so unpredictable and it just goes so many different places that you never expected to go um oh god another thing from the movie but was the dinosaur park thing oh yeah well it makes me think of the movie

Clifford, but of course, Clifford, I think, comes out obviously much later than Pewey's Big Adventure. Well, I was, as a kid, I remember just being like, where the fuck does this exist? I want to go sit in a dinosaur. It's also in the movie The Wizard. Oh, yeah. I was just like, what the hell is this? The Wizard, of course, is a 90-minute Nintendo commercial that I love as a time. Yes, the Wizard. I feel like there's going to be a Wiz and the Bruiser episode on the Wizard at some point. Yeah, right? It has Ginny Lewis from Riloh-Kiley.

It's got, yeah, it's so crazy. So the infamous large march scene was actually done by the Chiodo brothers. Is that the right way to say that? The Chiodo brothers? I thought it was Chiodo, but. Kyoto, yeah, I always pronounce things wrong and people let me know all the time, and I'm terrible at it. But anyway, Stephen Charles and Edward are the brothers,

and they also did puppets and effects for killer clouds from outer space. Which is a wonderful fun movie. Critters and Team America World Police. Rubin said, I didn't write it as a kid's movie. I wrote it to have a wide range. I still have kids who come up to me and say that that moment when Large Marge turned around, I still can't watch.

It's like the people in my generation who, if you mention Walt Disney, within 30 seconds, start reliving scenes of the wicked stepmother from Sleeping Beauty. There were just things in Disney movies that probably were too scary for kids, and I think that we need to bring it back. Bring it back. Bring it back.

The Sleeping Beauty stuff didn't scare me. I loved that scene. I guess that makes me a little dark. Well, I think we were all watching lots of dark things at the time, you know? When you stopped being scared of Large Marge when I saw, I stopped when I saw it when I was like six. And I was like, I got other things to be scared of. I'm good. Large Marge isn't that bad.

Wow. Perspective. Because you know what? I was just a perspective-based child. It knocked out Large Marge because I feel like Large Marge would be much scarier. The problem is that it made me more scared of a tangible thing like the bathroom. Just in general, I was then scared of going into the bathroom. But that woman's face turns into clay.

But that's why you know what? You just don't trust anybody. That's what it taught. It just was stranger danger. You shouldn't hitchhike. That's for damn sure. Shouldn't hitchhike. I had mentioned it before that the pee-wee dance, the tequila dance, of course,

was part of a character he had done in the past. But I did love this. That what it was originally based on was the dance was actually inspired by a dirty joke. his dad used to tell. And he said the joke was something like you put one thumb in your Ruben's points at his backside and one in your mouth and then you switch. And that's like the end of the joke, but he doesn't even remember the rest of the joke. That means you have poop in your mouth.

Yeah, I think you get poopy mouth. So it's a booby mouth dance. So big adventure is made on a budget of $8 million and grossed over $40 million on the North American box office alone. It is this massive success. Way more successful than a poopy finger joke could ever be. Just to connect the dots there a little bit, because I know that was a jar in transition.

And before we get into Pee Wee's Playhouse, I just wanted to share this quote from Paul Rubens because I think it's so great. I've always felt like a kid, and I still feel like a kid, and I've never had any problem tapping into my childhood and my kid's side. And I think that's a very universal thing.

I don't think it's unique to me at all. People I've talked to in their 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s have all told me, quote, you know, I still feel 20. So I don't expect that I'm going to be any different. I still feel 20. Me too. No, I feel better than 20. Yeah, I feel way better than 20s.

I feel great. I still feel like a boy, a boyish man. Well, you don't look like it. Wow, interesting. Because I'm old, you're old. Good comeback. Looking. I think it's fun to be.

in your 30s. I know you are, but what am I? I'm in my 30s. You are in your 30s. So next comes Peewee's Playhouse. And we really want to take our time with it, so we are going to do it in a part two. But I figured why not, since Natalie's fresh off of the show and it's fresh in her mind, can you tell us a little bit

about the show and all that stuff? I feel like I'm conducting a professional interview right now. I know. Natalie Jean. Let's throw it to Natalie. You have lived a fanciful and interesting life. As an audience, Matt. Remember. Regale us with a tale of your live experience watching Peewee's play out. I think that we're all very intrigued by what this, if you follow Bui Herman and what he's doing right now, I really want to know what happened at this.

So it's the 35th anniversary of Pee Wee's Big Adventure. Not, I don't think it's a Peewee's big adventure because that was 85. 84, 85. Oh, so it's, yeah, 35. Oh yeah, you're right. So it's the anniversary. So he's doing this like Q&N. tour. It's actually, okay, so it's going on right now and there's, there could be a tour dates that are not

sold out yet. I'm not sure, but you should totally check in on it because it's going to be over the next month or two. But this is, he started it, I think in Ventura, he had his first screening and it sold out in like 30, like literally 30 seconds online. So he ended up having two more shows in Los Angeles. Hell yeah. And it's sort of the, I think just the launching of the rest of this tour. But what it really is is screening of Pee Wee's Big Adventure with him coming out at the end and talking. It's called a Q&A, but as he says as he comes out, he's like, I know that it's going to be, it says Q&A, but this is mostly going to be an A. So it is, he does come out and talk and it's the screening, which is really fun.

And then it starts out with footage from the premiere of the original 1985 screening of it. And it's Pee-wee doing interviews with people outside. And it's a good 20 minutes of really fun, crazy footage of him interviewing like Mr. T, the fat boys, like people from the cast. So he's working this premiere before his own premiere. Yeah. I love him. I just, I love him so much. He's wonderful.

And Danny, it's fun to see how baby-faced they are. Danny Elfman looks like he is 12 years old in it. He's wearing a bow tie. Elfman is hot as Tim Burton was at this time because... He's a ginger. Oh, oh. I'm, please keep going. I'm going to look up pictures of Daniel Hoffman.

He's another bird-boned man. Ooh, okay. So that's very fun. So it was a sold-out screening. We went to, and as we were coming in, are you? Yeah, Timmyel. Oh, no, no, no, no, never mind. Never mind.

Oh, no, the young pictures. Oh, no, the young pictures. I'd hit that. Sorry, I apologize. Sorry, Rag, right. Jaggy's over here getting thirsty. Do you need to go and it? in the bathroom for 10 minutes and rejoin us.

So when we were coming in, it was, I think it's a popular trend right now, but people were dressed up for the screening. Everybody, I kind of wore a dress that I felt like was playland appropriate, but I wasn't dressed as any character. But there were a million people dressed as peewee. Some people had really fun creative costumes. Like there was a guy, I think it was two guys playing the part of whatever peewee and the the tag guy, the criminal.

The Metro's tag man? When they're incognito trying to get through the police checkpoint. Oh my God, I love that outfit. It was like one guy was wearing like a very fake goatee and mustache and the other guy was wearing the blue sweater dress. It was a wonderful. That's such a great couple's costume. I know.

I know. I know. So the second we go into Will call Joe Maganello's in front of us. Joe McInell is in front of her. Oh, my God. God. That's one of the very fun things about LA is that you just run into random people like that all the time. But because it was pee-wee, it was such a weird collection of LA people.

And because it's also pee-wee, it's not a VIP thing. So all of the people who were there to see him were just sitting with us. And it was like David Arquette was there. Rashida Jones was right in front of us. I forget her name, but the woman who plays Simone was in the audience. EG Daily. I'm sorry, what's her name? EG Daily.

EG Daily was in the audience. It was so cool. And everybody was just hanging out in the audience. And so that first part happens of the original premiere footage. And then it goes into the screening. And it is such a joyful, fun, high energy experience. Because everyone there loves it so much. and everybody's doing the lines together

and laughing that everybody's doing the lines together. That's awesome. And it's so fun, had a great time. And then as the movie's ending, you know, Peewee comes out. And you can tell like he's visibly moved that everybody because I don't think he was expecting people to be this excited about it. And he's such a sensitive dude.

Yeah. I think if I'm picking up what he's putting down. And we'll get into why he has a lot, even more reason to be sensitive at this point with everything that's happened. And, you know, the rise and fall we will cover next week. The many, the many rises and falls. But he comes out and he comes out as Paul Rubens. He's not wearing his pee-wee suit. Okay.

But he is now 67 years old. He looks great, but you can tell he's older. And he just comes out and he has this huge stack of papers that's a prop. But he's like, it looks like he's going to go through. all these notes and he just comes out and he is just he's moved by it and he's he said i just i want to thank you so much i had no idea it was the most incredible thing listening to you from backstage like i was i cried a couple different times while he was talking wow i'm gonna cry right now i'm getting a little it really it really is it's something that makes my heart feel so good to see a guy who

is in the, you know, maybe the last third of his life, looking out at an audience of every age range. He got like two standing ovations during the speeches because people were so happy to see him. And it is so moving as somebody who has a performer and creator just to see like somebody receive that after a life of work. And it was really touching. But during that, during the talk, He basically would just break down what was happening backstage. And he had slides of all these behind the scenes photos that are not, you know, public photos. What one was, which photo was your favorite? There was a photo from just like over the shoulder of him talking with Tim Burton.

They both look like babies. And it's like a very not posed photo. He's so misunderstood that young Tim Burton. And it's just, you can see like the lightning in that photo. Yeah. These two people who are going to actually change the world in a lot of ways. And for me, really wrote who I was as a kid a whole lot. Yeah.

Seeing them as young people creating that and it's really, it's really insane to see. But we also weren't allowed to have our phones. We had those things where you have to put your phone in the sack. Yeah. Because he didn't, I don't think he wanted people taking pictures of the pictures. Good. No, I think, which is how it should be, you know? Yeah, good.

How did you touch Joe Mangonello? I try to. No, he actually, you know what? He's not that tall. I was surprised that he's not a tall man. And Paul Rubens is actually 5'10. He's my height. So in the Netflix movie, they have sort of cheated their heights to make Joe Magnetola a dollar.

Interesting. I love their relationship in B-Wee's Big Holiday. Semi-romantic. Yeah. But go see it if you get a chance. I don't know if there's seriously any tickets left for any of the dates, but give it a look. It's really, really, really fun.

Hell yeah. Thank you so much for sharing your experience with us. You're welcome. Yay! Yeah! Next week, the continued rise and the fall and then the Phoenix-like, Rise Again, of Munn Mr. Pee-Wee-Herman. I'm very excited about it,

and thank you guys so much for joining us this week on our episode of Pop History. Also, this episode does go out to a good friend of ours, Katie. It is dedicated to her from a friend of ours, Kyle. So we're doing this for her birthday, and we just want to say happy birthday, and I hope you enjoy the beginning of our pee-wee excursion. Oh, yeah.

Take a picture to last long. Take me to last long. My name is Jackie Zabrowski. My name's Jackie Zabrowski. catch us on patreon.com forward slash page seven podcast or is a P7 podcast? Page seven podcasts. All right.

Take it from me, Jackie. Why? Page 7 podcasts. Holden? Oh, I'm Holden. It's two Jackie's when Holden. Natalie, you don't exist anymore. It's fun to be me.

It's fun to be me. That sounds like a fun porn. I don't know if it does. None of us touching each other. Is this how we're ending this episode? I guess. I think it's fitting based on what happens next episode. All right, fine.

I'll be me again. My name's Holden. You can follow me on Twitch.tv. 4. slash Holdenators ho. Natalie. My name is Holden-McNeely. I'm still Holden-McNeely.

Oh, my God. You can find us on Instagram at page 7 LPN. Hell yeah. And again, I'm still Jackie Zabrowski. And you can follow me on Instagram at Jack. That worm. Two Holdens, one, Jackie. Oh, I've seen that.

up. Nightmarish porn video online. We love you guys. We'll be back on part two next week. Bye. This show is made possible by listeners like you. Thanks to our ad sponsors, you can support our shows by supporting them. For more shows like the one you just listened to, go to lastpodcastnetwork.com.