Page 7 - Pop History: RuPaul's Drag Race

Episode Date: July 6, 2021

This week we're joined by Kara Klenk, a former writer on Drag Race, to help wrap up our series on RuPaul and cover the story behind his legendary TV series!Check out Kara's podcast, That's Messed Up: An SVU PodcastWant even more Page 7? Support us on Patreon! Patreon.com/Page7PodcastKevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0 Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes of Page 7 ad-free.Start a free trial now on Apple Podcasts or by visiting siriusxm.com/podcastsplus. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

May the best woman, bass woman win. Welcome to RuPaul's drag race. Yeah, I just said the tail end of it, and I feel great. I have been just every time Lexi walks in the room lately, I'm just like, Come a girl, put that base in yo walk. I bet she loves it, though. That was like, all right, well, I guess we'll just jump right into it. Today's episodes of RuPaul's Drag Race.

For me, and we kind of, I refer to this as the gush. Kara, we have a guest, Kara, I should also introduce our, Please, can we please? Please welcome Kara Clank, writer of Rupal's Drag Race, and also host of That's Messed Up, an SVU podcast, which you can get wherever you get your podcast, which we, oh, baby, we wanted to do together. But it's still absolutely amazing.

I'm obsessed with the show, and it's so funny because Kara and I, and welcome, welcome. Hello. We actually bumped into each other at a RuPaul's Drag-Con in a time period when I, knew nothing about RuPaul's drag race. Because I was there with Jeff, right? Because I was there with Jeff. And Kara was also there. And that was when you, was that right before you started working for drag race? It was the year before, wasn't it? I think it was the year before because

the following year, I was working at the show and I went to DragCon and I had my new baby with me. So when you and I went, I was childless. And, um, and yeah, and I remember I had just like been sort of on a binge of the show. And I was like so excited to, uh, be there. To be there and be in it because it was so funny because I was walking around with Kara and you were explaining to me

the world of draggeries. Like, thank you because like this is so exciting and I really, really like this. But I don't know anything about any of it. It wasn't really, I needed you that day and I just want to say thank you. You and I did a dance class

with LaGonja. We did do a dance class. Oh my God, is that who it was? Yeah. Now I just get so excited. I didn't know who it was. That was LaGonja. LaGange Straha.

Legandre strong. It is insane what this show has brought into pop culture and the lexicon at large. I am disgusted with myself that I am this new to RuPaul's drag race. And thank you again, Kara, for joining us today because we wanted someone that was more invested in the show to talk, shop with us. Of course. Because it's a lot. Yeah. And I don't know how. And you said you binged it, right? You, you watched a bunch of it all of us. Yeah. I have, you know, I have a gay brother who was, has been telling me for years to watch it, years and years. And he, he eventually came to visit me and just plugged his Apple TV like, sign up into my Apple TV. And he is, he owns every season. So I was like, okay, I guess if it's this easy, I'm just gonna. And I just, this was like in 2018 or something. Yeah. Maybe 17. And I. And I.

just like went crazy and like once you start it truly it's like when you were saying how you like your your fiance or your wife I'm sorry like always comes in while you're watching it or you're singing it like this stuff is like an earworm like it just gets in yes all like I remember like when you're watching a see when you're watching like season seven you're always singing to the moon all the time yeah like when you're like watching another season you're singing I am American like all those little songs everything's such an earworm yes and when like that's reminded me of you saying like your wife coming in on you. Like I was literally lying in my bed once and listening to my husband Jared Logan change our baby's diaper, our daughter. And he literally

goes, girl, if you're not watching untucked, you're only getting half the story. Like while he was I literally went like, I literally said something like and I ended with like, okay, honey. Like it was just like that is the gayest thing you've ever set up. Like it's just I've, I've, I've, I've, It's over for me. We're feeling it. But I will say, like, I'm so glad to just have this excuse to start binging the show. You know, I feel like in a lot of relationships, you watch shows together, but you try to actually actively have her show and his show or whatever, right?

And so Drag Race was always a Lexi show, but it was that one show, unlike, like, Handmaid's Tale or This Is Us, which... Very similar to RuPaul's Drag Race, both of them, yeah. I'd be, like, playing on my, like, games on my PC, and I'd slowly my head. would just turn towards the television. Slowly my desk chair would just slide towards the couch. And I'd be like watching an episode and really enjoying it. And then we had like a group meetup with some friends for my like early Twitch community actually. Shoutouts Tommy said what.

Amanda, Charlie Chop Shop and Cam Star VR. We had this little meetup and everybody wanted to go see a Trixie Mattel show at in the East. Or I think it was the, I think it was in Chelsea actually. Now that I think about it, of course. Of course in Chelsea. I was blown away. Trixie gets on stage. We're gonna go ahead and throw it out there.

Trixie's going to get their own episode at some point because I can't. It's too much amazingness. Trixie gets on stage. The stand-up set was better than most of the stand-up I've seen. The lip-sinking was incredible. It was like the best of everything in one. And then, of course, also playing guitar. And I was like, oh, I fucking get it.

It's like way more than just, I don't know, looks or, you know, serving up looks or like a lips. It's like sometimes when it's really good, there's like everything kind of happening. And I think when drag race is really good, you're watching amazing dance numbers. You're watching amazing singing. They're costuming, the makeup, the wig, everything about it. And yeah, so I just, I had already kind of had a big respect for drag from that. I had a blast at a drag brunch in New Orleans with Lexi, but really finally it wasn't until this episode that I started slamming through.

I watched, I'll say specifically, I've watched clips from all over the board or an episode here or there from other stuff, but specifically blasted through season six and All Stars Season 2 after Googling it. Just seemed like those were the most generally highest rated if you look at lists. But I'm sure anyone would claw my eyeballs out and be like,

it's, you know, season eight's the best or whatever. Everybody has their own shit. I mean, people hate on season seven, and I'm like, the season that gave you Trixie, that gave you Cotty, Matti, they gave you all these amazing ginger minge. Like, I love that season. And like, you know, people just hate on, I don't know, like the fandom is crazy, as we all know. Well, that's the thing, too. And I just want to throw it out there.

We're afraid of y'all, y'all. People listening to this that love the show, we literally are afraid of y'all. I can't wait to be on Twitter with y'all the next season that comes out, too, though, at the season time that's going to be exciting. I'm here for it. It always felt like I'd be on Twitter when a season would be happening and I'd be like,

I'm missing out on something I can tell because so many people are like talking about the last episode. I also really thought that Rupal's the giggling and the laughter clips that happen like every two minutes on the episodes. The first two episodes was like,

I'm going to be driven mad with the and I thought that it was like it was living rent free in my mind like a nightmare. And you hit that fourth, episode, I never heard it again. It is now absorbed into my brain. And again, the hypnosis effect.

It really is so bingeable. I really think that that is like what is, they've created like a shared language on the show. Yeah. And then they just do repetition. Like notice that they upgrade the show in certain ways. Like it definitely looks better than it did at the very beginning. Oh yeah. There's certain things that look better.

But they really haven't changed much of the format at all. I mean, I think there's like a very very. very like, if it ain't broke, don't fix it thing going on there. Where like, yeah. And then, you know, when I was with you at Drekcon, I was like, I know what this is. I know what backrolls means. I know what kitty girl is. I know like what, you know, all the aisles at DragCon are named after all the, this like,

these pieces of this little shared language that the show has. Yes. And everyone knows it. Yeah. And I remember when I, when I sent in my resume to the person that I was going to be interviewing with our or to my friend who passed it along or whatever i remember sort of talking and i said i said i said you know i'm a huge fan of the show but i also went to summer camp and that's what makes me feel like i understand the idea of taking like a shared language and and working within that

because that's what makes that's what makes me so obsessed with my summer camp and it's what makes people so obsessed with ruPaul's drag race yes exactly you know all these little things that you're talking about yeah so i kind of used camp and i mean i got the job Hell yeah, well it's a community. You immediately, the second you're in and now even just watching, you know, the three, four seasons I was able to consume in a couple of weeks, I

understand so much more of what it's brought to the zeitgeist that I didn't know before. And in fact, at that drag con, I bought a shirt which I was going to wear today, but turns out I gained a little bit of quarantine weight. And I bought a shirt that says pound cake on it. And I thought it was just fun because it made me

feel like I was a thick, juicy piece of pound cake, not knowing that that's Alaska's album, right? That's one of Alaska Thunderfox album? Well, it's a, it's a character Alaska had to create on the show. Yes. A little pound cake is like, yeah. And then I looked up a little about it. And I was like, oh, oh, that's why everyone was laughing when I had it on.

Now I understand. Well, we're all born naked and the rest is drag. I'm ready to get into how they pitch this shit. Yeah. It's insane, though, as well. And what I love in reading these interviews with RuPaul of not only talking about bringing a subculture to the forefront of America's puritanical television culture. And it really goes to show with the fight that they had to make it mainstream. This has all been a fight.

It's been a fight from the beginning with RuPaul. His whole career has been a fight. And then what's funny is, you know, we'll get into the lip sync. thing later on, but then all of a sudden overnight, Fallon's lip-syn's lip-syns, there's a whole lip-sink battle show. They're taking these things from it, but also RuPaul, it doesn't even seem angry about it. It's more of, well, you know, yeah, I did it best, and I did it first.

And also, like, just a little dry, like, literally they've been stealing from queer culture, like, forever. Forever. It is a jail as old as time, for sure. But this, let's take the, uh, I mean, that was terrible intro. But let's travel back in time to 2008. There was a little TV channel called Logo, which I didn't even, honestly, I was like,

is this like, this is like gay crackle. I like forgot all about logo essentially. Carol, Holden hates crackle. I always joke right about crackle. And voodoo. How do you feel about Pluto? Oh. Is that, that's the one?

He doesn't, yeah. Don't give him other ammo, Carol, please. Don't get me started. Part of the reason why I didn't get into this in the first place is honestly straight up, I didn't know how the fuck to find it. And as someone that is not a technological person and people are like, oh, you just, you've got to like sift through. You got to go, like a little truffle. And man, I oint and I ointed and I oint. And it took me until now to get all of it.

In a way, it's like kind of smart how they did it. Yes. Where once it became huge, they were like, your only option is to buy it. I mean, it was on Netflix, I think, for like a minute or it was on something, Hulu maybe. But now it's gone and it's like, show us the coin. Gotta do it. And you know what? I did it.

I'm paying for it, baby. Between the World of Wonder, like the actual plus, like the Wow Plus and Paramount Plus, so fucking smart. I'll pay whatever now. I will say, I saw season six. I have like crazy Hulu though so that I can watch like, that's how I watch live TV, which is stupid because I'm paying way too much. But I was able to watch all of season six on Hulu. It has some stuff. Oh.

Okay, you've got crazy Hulu. But I also have weird Hulu, so I might have, like, the access to, like, the deepest depths of it. So, logo owned by ViacomCBS CBS, was originally dedicated to Lifestyle Entertainment Program targeting LGBT audiences. This is kind of slowly changed every time as everything gets diluted, especially television channels, you know, ancient aliens on Discovery, that sort of thing. The channel launched back in 2005 was the first advertiser-supported commercial channel in the U.S. geared toward the gay community. RuPaul had been working during this time on this idea in his head for years as he saw reality and especially the reality competition show becoming hugely popular around the world.

It was based on a suggestion from one of his producers and he reacted with one condition and I love this because this is why this is what I needed to enjoy like Great British baking. I like don't like a lot of these kinds of shows. RuPaul said I don't want to do anything mean-spirited. I mean, the show gets catty as fuck. It does. Well, that's what he- lightness to the, I love that they just separated the untouched.

And it makes so much sense because I don't care about the mean side of it as much. I like seeing the like pageantry side of it. And the comedy, like the lighthearted humor stuff. Yeah. For sure. So Rupal said, I wasn't interested in doing anything that was going to cast, drag in a negative light or ridicule it. But the winds of change changed my mind. The Obama movement was happening and I could feel it in my bones that it was time.

which is interesting because, of course, we know from the first episode, RuPaul left drag and left the spotlight when essentially George W. Because of the George W. Bush administration. And the war on terror was happening. And it was just like, it's not my time. But Obama comes in. It also goes to show that it is a lot to do with RuPaul and politics. And this will come in hand.

We're not going to get too much into RuPaul's controversial beliefs. But it does go hand in hand that RuPaul is a fairly, even though in the queer culture, a conservative view. I mean, he even has fracking on his 60,000 acres of land. You know, like, this is a person that does follow the changes of the tide. And I think that that also comes into play later on and how big this gets during the Trump administration. And it's like, especially like going off to such an insane extent because of the backlash of what was going on in our fucking country at the time.

Yeah. The producers, by the way, are Randy Barbato, who first, suggested the competition show back in 2004, and Fenton Bailey, they're the founders of World of Wonder Productions, who became very tight with Rupal as his managers since the first album, RuPaul released Supermodel, You Better Work, talked about it last week. Another member of the team, Tom Campbell, was once an executive MTV, Warner Brothers, and Moore, joined World of Wonder and gets credit for creating the show title pun and basic format. So Rue, Randy, and Fenton, they developed the challenges, which were based on situations RuPaul came into

contact with early in his career, which makes sense because there's a lot of like, Rupal did that campy stage play and like they do all sorts of competitions like that. Well, also in the beginning of the show, it was more of like sewing costumes and it was more of a hands-on crafting approach of all of the sides of drag. Now, when you were working on the show, Kara, do you also are, do you have a hand in creating the actual competition side of it? Like the challenges? Like a challenges?

Yeah, so I pitch challenges with the challenge. There is a challenge team that is like their own thing, but I pitch challenges and some of my challenges did get made. Cool. So, yeah, they're like, but when there's pitching, it's kind of like all the creatives. It's like the challenge team and the writers and the producer, like the executive producers that are all.

involved in like that whole pitch process of, and it's probably 10 people. So yes. That's awesome that they bring in other people because I feel that there are other shows that don't have like the actual writers being able to create the parts of the competition shows. As someone that worked on one, I was not to, I was not when I was an elf on top elf, yes, I was on a competition show, but that it wasn't the writers that were creating any of the challenge. They had absolutely no hands-on experience with the creation of what was going on on the actual show. And I like that it does seem that with World of Wonder that they want to create more of a community aspect of being able to create the show together rather than just one person doing it. Did you feel that when you were working on it or not really?

Well, yes. I mean, it's very collaborative, especially in like the planning stages, like getting all the, the challenges and everything together. I thought it was very collaborative. So basically when I worked on it, there was only one writer besides me. There was two of us. What season?

I worked on season 12 and All Stars 5. Awesome. And celebrity drag race. Oh, hell yeah. So you got to work with Jermaine. Yes. Yeah. Awesome.

Yeah. So I saw Jermaine and was like, you know, it was great to see him. And, um, Bibi. Like, I was like, how do I know two of the celebrities on the show? Yeah. But then I will say like from when I was actually, when the show was actually getting going,

Tom, who you mentioned, has like a real, he has a real vision for what's going to happen. And so, like, a lot, everything kind of siphons through Tom. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. So first they pitched to places like Bravo and E, everybody turned them down.

According to Campbell, they heard the pitch, which was a very good pitch, and everyone really loved Rue, but they were like, we can't do drag. You know, we can't do drag. You get it. And it was like, really? So Logo ends up buying the show

of course, based on Rupal's pitch, first meeting right out of the gate. They were just ready to say yes, and they signed on for a premiere in 2009. Rupal said, I knew the show's mission statement was to celebrate the art of drag. And I knew drag has more significant meaning and power than just what it seems like on the surface. It speaks to the duality of our lives as humans on this planet. So kind of the mission statement there going into season one, which of course, RuPaul, if anybody's watched it and it is referred to, I believe, as the Vaseline season, right? Yes, because of the filter that is on in season one.

It is such a weird look to it because of that. And that is considered... Which good for them, pitching and having such a difficult time getting it made, it was actually a success from the get-go, even though it was difficult to find. Totally. And very different from the drag race that we see now. Because RuPaul considers this whole season to be the pilot for the show.

This was just a big test run. And in fact, they re-released this season under the name Rupal's Drag Race, the lost season revealed. And that pissed off a lot of people, and especially the people that won the first season of, referring to it as the lost season was almost as if it was a slap in the face. But it's actually still difficult to find

because it is not even necessarily considered a part of the drag race world. Yeah, yeah. But just still, even though I will say the winner of the first season, is on All-Stars 3, and he's amazing. Oh, my God, his voice melts my butter. I'm pussy, bitch. Now we know it's like a $100,000 reward, I believe. It was originally $20,000 and $5,000 worth of Mac cosmetics.

The guest judges included Bob Mackey, Michelle Williams, and Lucy Lawless. There was also a miscongeniality audience vote in that first season that they would do over the internet as well to try to get more interactive reach with the audience. One notable thing happening time-wise, the first episode aired just after the Obama inauguration, so much in the vein of how RuPaul decided to leave, like we said,

during the War on Terror. Rupal said, we're dealing with people who have been shunned by society and have made a life regardless of what anyone else thinks of them have decided. It shows the tenacity of the human spirit, which each of us watching relates to, and we root for them. I think that's what's so captivating about it,

seeing how these beautiful creatures have managed to prevail. And, And yeah, I definitely connect probably in that personal way of always having felt in my own way, like the weirdo, like the kind of, especially like growing up in North Carolina and like very, you know, private school and shit and just feeling like, I need to get the fuck out of here. It is insane. It's so it's fun to watch people get successful and you're just like, man, I know, I kind of know a little, little bit what that feeling was like. Yeah. And I mean, I know that in such a different way, but it's insane how eloquently spoke. RuPaul is, which is why it does devastate me when he says things that I just truly don't agree with.

But he is such a well-spoken person. But there's just this quote from him. This is for people to do drag and make it their profession in a male-dominated culture, they have to go through so much emotional tug of war because society says you're not supposed to do that. So the strength in humanity it takes to maintain yourself and your dreams create many different layers of consciousness. That's where the humanity of drag comes from. And in watching it, I just love all of the different characters and what they bring. And you see the people that don't succeed on the show are the ones that aren't fully developed as a whole yet. And I think

that that is what has been so interesting to see that, like, yes, I have my favorites, but they're not always necessarily the ones that should win, like an Ador Dolano, who I do, I really I love a door to the point that I started looking at different clips online of anywhere I could see him perform. And he seems to be doing great outside of this. But the breakdown that he has in All Stars 2 of not being able to hang. What was that? That devastated me. It made me so sad because he wasn't fully at the point that, or he liked who he was and he was trying to push himself into a different box.

Even in a subculture where you're supposed to be. accepted no matter who you are. And I think that's what pushed me away from Rupal's drag race for so long, even though, again, they're saying that they're not, it wasn't created with an intent to be mean-spirited. But I do feel that there's still levels and there's still layers where most of the people in the show were still hot as shit. You know, everybody's hot. And they're hot, whether they're dressed as a woman or they're hot, whether they're in costume or not. And it is, there's also part of that where I know that they're trying to work on. inclusivity as time goes on.

But I just think that, I don't know. I don't even know where I'm going with this. I've got a lot of feelings. I've just been sitting and watching this show alone. And I have so much to say. We're just going to keep sitting here in silence and just let you take this thought trade. Kara,

did you have any of these feelings? I know that you had to binge it. No, no. I totally agree. I think that like, obviously the people that win are usually people that have like a fully Bianca, Bob, like, you know, people that have like fully formed characters.

But then you also get cast when there's just a snap, there's like a snippet of something there that they know. Which I like, and I like how Rupal's always like, A, even if just being on the show, you're going to probably have a career now. Yeah. And B, I'm just going to try to work on you and elevate you, you know, even if you're not going to win.

Yeah. And it really works for some people, you know, like, you know, they try to get Derek Barry. to get out of his comfort zone, not always do Brittany. You know, there's somebody on Drag Race the first season of Drag Race UK who had only done drag one time before being on the show. You know, and like, you're kind of like, if you watch the show, you're like, obviously that person's not going to win,

but there is something, they bring something to the season, you know? Yes. Yes. And I mean, say with Shangela. And it's the finalist in season six. Yeah. And you watch Shangela grow from, who had only been doing drag, I think, for like five months before he started on the show.

and then cut to All-Stars Season 3 after being on Season 2, Season 3, and then coming back for All-Sor's Season 3. And what a difference from the beginning. But it's because it's your creation. You have to put the time and the work and the experience into it to really be the fully formed version

because then you have the people like Milk. I really like Milk as a character. But Milk wasn't fully defined yet when he was on the show. And I think people, some people would argue with you, that yes, it is a continuation of a character and rounding out of a character,

but it's also money. Yeah. Oh, yeah. People also go get money. And then when they come back on All-Stars, they've got the contacts. I mean, because the thing that people don't realize, too, is like, if you're just like some random drag queen

from Bumblefuck wherever, you come on the show because you've got some kind of star quality, by the time you come back on All-Stars, you now know all these other queens. They're lending you, their designer shit. They're helping you. Right. And that's what's crazy.

In fact, an episode I watched this morning, Michelle Vassage was like, it doesn't take money to do good drag, girl? And I was like, but doesn't it? As someone that, like, I know, like, waistrainers corsets, that shit's expensive. To win the show, it seems like you've got to have some of your artisoles. Yeah, that's the thing. I don't know that, like, that's just like what the, like, the fandom and the,

the celebrity of the show has demanded now that you can't really come on and be super, like, for example, Crystal Method. was one of my favorites in the season that I worked on. And she's so great. And like a lot of her drag is crafty. And then she got crafty every week on the runway. You're too crafty. It's a little bit too crafty.

But like, you know, now I mean, Crystal is definitely marches to the beat of her own drum, even in the drag world. Oh yeah. But like I don't know. It's like people come on and they're wearing couture and they're wearing custom. And it's like, you know, I guess some of that's borrowed. So yeah, I guess that doesn't require money. But you still need it's still, it's almost like privilege.

Like you still know the people to give you these things. So to start out, yeah, it's just, it's, that's a, I wonder if what Michelle Vesage would say about that like now. Right. And that is, and what, and not to, obviously it's very different, but I liken it to the sketch that we did and the comedy that we did for a really long time where we had fun in creating our own props and creating our own world. We knew it didn't look that great. And I think that's why then now that I'm starting to watch more from the earlier seasons, I'm like, I think I actually. really enjoy that side of it as well of the like, no, we don't have a lot of money, but we can figure this shit out when like how many times where it's like, I imagine that

like there are people that are like duct taping their waist in just to get the cinch in. And I don't want people to do that. But it's like there's also that, you're right, the scrappiness of like, fuck you. I'm going to do this shit anyway. Of the mentoring, Rupal said, all of us are in drag in some form or fashion. So when I am able to discover what a person's blockage is, I'm actually always always really talking to myself. I see myself in them, so I'm able to understand

where the self-doubt comes from. It's not something we designed to be part of the show, but it's an integral part of my personality. Sasha Valores said, when Rupal is looking me in the eye and telling me, you're a little too serious, have you considered just like making a fart joke? At that point, I know she has seen me very clearly.

Also, we mentioned Shangela. Shangela was the one who actually started the tradition of writing a farewell message on the mirror and lipstick after being eliminated. That was in season two, I believe. Shangela came really far, though. I love, you're gonna love All-Stars 3. I'm just so excited because now,

it's not even like as if this journey is about to come to a close. Fuck, no, I'm in now. I'm a part of the community now. I know what all the words mean, okay? Also with this season, came untucked, the behind-the-scenes companion series, which we were just talking about. That's kind of where you go to watch the tea, get spilled.

And again, I love that they just allow you to enjoy all those aspects. And I think that you need that aspect of it and its reality. But I do love how it is kind of sectioned off for the most part in its own thing. So yeah, let's talk about some of the interesting rules and regulations that have come about. I know. So interesting when you hear me say the phrase rules and regulations. Honestly, it is kind of. But it is interesting.

In the world of like where we have, Kara, did you watch the Circle at all? No, I mean, a dear friend Michelle Butow, the host. Oh my God, so amazing. Hell yeah, I love the Circle. And it is in the same way where I like that. I know that it seems that a lot of the reviews are like, it gets wrote over time.

It's kind of the same, but bup, but I don't feel this way. And like, I think that it's always interesting to watch the different people and how they attack a challenge. But what interests me actually the most, like the circle and like a lot of other reality shows, that they started doing this kind of a process where you're not allowed to speak to anybody else, your phones are taken away, no internet, like that you are completely cut off from the world in a way that a lot of reality shows tried to do and failed at, and now they're getting more strict about it. Yes, so contestants are blindfolded coming off the plane and are escorted to their hotel from there,

they do not get to meet the other contestants until they see them for the first time in the workroom while filming. Which is also cool because now I'm watching that first episodes knowing that they don't know who the other drag queens are on their season until they walk in. Carrie did you get to like

did you get kind of an introduction to all the contestants sort of as a writer? I had like a little we had like a little board of their faces and their names and like their hometowns and their boy names and stuff like that.

So we knew a little bit about them. And like, and you could assume that if a queens were from the same hometown, they knew each other. Right. Like the New York queens always know each other and like LA queens or whatever. And I think now people, when they're starting to get stuff together or people based, a lot of the queens figure it out who's going to be there. Oh, okay.

Because they're like, oh, so-and-so is asking around for certain things or whatever. Like, or so-and-so doesn't have any dates on her calendar for. for these two months or whatever. And the fans are always trying to figure that shit out too. Like, I think now they get their friends to post on social media for them. So they don't know who's been like completely dark on social for two months. So you know that they just came from doing all stars or they just came from doing like, you know, because some of these, a lot of these queens now, they came on as nobody's.

But like, for example, Gigi Good had a following, I think, coming on. Or Aquaria had a huge following before she came on her season. just because of Instagram. Courtney Act. Yeah. So back in season two and three, they would come on and probably have no idea which other were

about because of Instagram and everything, I think now they've heard of each other. They're like, oh, I know this queen. She's this one that does this or whatever. So, yeah. So we definitely, it was weird. Like there was never like a thing where they were like, this is carrot,

but I would meet them as I had to talk to them, basically for different things. Gotcha, gotcha. Also, there's a five suitcase. limit, which I love. Well, it's weight now because they are their cheaters. Yeah, yeah, right? Oh.

They do a weight limit. They do a weight limit now? Damn. But they just come in with like absurdly big suit. They come in with like a truck with a handle on it. Yeah, I mean, they bring like, you know, they bring big like trunks instead of suitcases or big plastic things and that's not a suitcase. So it's like, I think they had to do it by weight.

But then I remember, I can't remember who just recently said this, but one queen on some podcast I was listening to was like, yeah, it's so unfair. The weight limit because if you're, if you're like a queen with a size 14 shoe, you're obviously going to have like your big ass shoes are going to take up, I'll make a lot more weight. Oh, right. You know, a Kenya Michaels or somebody who's tiny.

Yeah. And they are given a list of themes ahead of time as well. So they're kind of prepared in that way. And they're given that iPod, which honestly, they're given an iPod with the songs on it. So do you guys? For the lip syncing. For the lip syncing.

Yes. Now, Karen, did you have any input in what they choose? or in my brain it is rude sides all of the lip syncing songs but that can't possibly be true. Listen, there's a whole list of the songs that they can choose from

and how much they cost, you know, they cost money. So it's like if you're going to get a big ass like fucking Ariana Grande's song that's going to cost you a ton of money then maybe next week it's like an old Reba classic that's less expensive.

Gotcha, that makes a lot of sense. There's a list, but definitely I think that they try to make it specific. I always love how the lip sing songs are chosen because they seem like they are all. very like linked to gay culture either now or past, past present or future.

Like, for example, I know that Rupal loves the music of Alex Newell. So I think Alex has had like two songs in recent seasons, even though that might not be a household name. That's somebody that Roo sees as like a hot, up-and-coming, you know, member of the LGBT music scene. Yeah. And then, and then also they'll be like old-ass songs. Like they did fancy on one of the seasons I was on.

Yes. And, you know, like, so they'll be old. older songs that are part of like, you know, queer culture, like a little bit past, you know. So I always love that. They get bumps, too. But I think it's a mix of like, you don't want to do the same artist multiple times in a season and it's a mix of money and all that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I know that, too, like, if they do one of those old songs, like the stream numbers go

up for that song on platforms. And, you know, it does like move the needle and brings a lot of stuff back, which is really cool. After the first few seasons, they mandated the Queens to wear the same one or two outfits it's for the confessionals. And then there was also the whole filming, the ending with all three contestants having one, which has got to be a total mind fuck, by the way, to do that. But they would film after, I believe, is it season three,

they would film every contestant winning, which would drive me crazy if I was one of the finalists doing that and then not actually winning afterwards. I would love to see that footage, by the way, if all the contestants is winning. But that was because RuPaul said, I woke up one morning and I was in that weird time between sleep and waking, and it occurred me in that moment to shoot three different endings.

I thought that will fix those motherfuckers after the season three finalists was leaked. Because it's got it. I can only imagine, Kara, the amount of scrutiny you were under and the NDAs you had to sign while working on this show, because I have never read so much because now the lengths that they go to, it seems, or maybe it has just gotten more strict over time, is that like, they are trying to keep such an insane lid on everything with this show that it's got to just be so much pressure constantly. I think so.

I mean, like, we, I definitely had to sign a lot of stuff and couldn't say anything about anything. But, like, it was also like, I'm just like, what is wrong with the people that are, that need to know this shit so badly? Right. Yes. You need to know who's going to be on the next season of All-Stars. You're going to die if you don't know.

Just wait. I like to wait. I mean, like, when I was working on season five of All-Stars, that was like, the format was the lip sync assassin. I don't know if you guys are that far yet. No, not yet. That was like a cool format twist. And it was like, cool.

Like when you get to the show, you're going to be surprised. But like somebody leaked it online with a YouTube video explaining exactly how it works. And it's like, why? I don't get it. I never understood that with anything. Like any kind of thing of like or people that like trick people into seeing like the end of a movie or that. I'm like, man, can't we all just smile? Right.

Why do you have to be like a weird content terrorist? My friend's mom was in line opening night for Sixth Sense, and she, like, bumped into somebody who'd just seen the movie, and they just turned to him and said, Bruce Wells is a ghost and just walked away. That's, that is a nightmare person. I would be so angry. Can you imagine walking out of the movie with someone that did that?

I'd be like, I'm never speaking to you ever again. I don't want to know you anymore. No, thank you. But I think that's a reason that they have to do the three endings, too. It wasn't even just like the leaks. It's like when you do the live finale, which I love the live finale, the ones that like the Ace Hotel and stuff like

but those involve like a ton of old queens a ton of like just like regular people that are that got tickets so you cannot expect all those people to keep a secret so they shoot the three endings because you're not going to know for two weeks and you cannot I mean you can't really get an audience of people to sign an NDA and to give a shit about an NDA. No right right no so like so I mean that's the everything is about stopping Reddit basically yes I feel like uh they also do two runway walks one with music and one without

so they can get the judges commentary in there. And what am I, I love that one of the critiques on Rupal is like, RuPaul doesn't come up with all that stuff. He has an earpiece in his ear

and people are like feeding him jokes. I was like, yeah, that's how shit works. That's also reality television. Yeah, but you know what? Rupal also like, when Rupal hears a joke that he doesn't like,

he doesn't say it. Yeah. Totally. The best is like, we would sit there. So we would sit behind Tom, the guy that you mentioned before. We would say jokes to Tom.

Tom would then be like, yes or no. And then Tom would say it into his mic to Rue, and you would just see Rue's eyebrow lift, like, mm-hmm, not going to do that one. I love it. How stressful was that for you? Stressful. Did you figure out Rupal, like what the kind of things? Like, how long did it take you?

We're like, this is going to go. Oh, he's going to like this. You know, it's just like, I still don't think that's my strong suit. Like, my writer that I worked with, he has been on this show since, like, season five. he's so great. His mind just works like that, little puns and like the stuff like that. Like for me,

I think my strength was more like writing the acting challenge, like getting jokes in that way and stuff. Yeah. Because I, I just, or putting little jokes in the script, but like not really little puns like, oh, oh no, she better donut. You know, like I just, that's, I just,

I can't come up with that stuff that quickly. It's just not really my, that's not really my thing. I mean, I tried. I got some stuff on, but that's not my proficiency. But I think that that's also the kind of thing that years and years on the show, you can get good at that. But I think you just, for us, we just threw every piece of spaghetti at the wall and saw what stuck. And then, like, Tom decided what to take.

And then Rue ultimately decides what to take. And then Rue also makes stuff up on the spot. I'm sure. I am also, I am very impressed with Michelle Carson and Ross. They do not make, they do not have an earpiece. They do not have anything. Oh, they don't. They make it up themselves. That's cool.

Yeah. Hell yeah, that is cool. It's just funny because like, even my, like, one of my favorite things ever is Triumph the insult comic dog. And like, behind the scenes, I mean on that. Armito Bupon. And like the Star Wars one. I mean, there is a team of comic writers surrounding Triumph, feeding jokes to triumph.

Like, that's not just Robert Smigel doing all of that incredible material. And it's like, that's just the Odyssey. So it was funny seeing like, that was one of the big controversies of the show. And yeah, for untucked, the cocktails are super watered down after Jujubi had too much to drink and did a hammered lip sink in season two. Well, also, apparently what I heard on a like a drag race podcast that I listened to with a couple of the queens is that they used to have like also the bottles out and the queens were just like taking the bottles and like bringing them back to their hotel. Yeah, of course. So they had to just curb the whole drinking thing a little bit. That's hilarious.

I do like it seems that there's a lot of things that they had to learn while queens would break the rules. Yes. Of even just like the putting the tape over their doors so they don't leave and that kind of shit. That was another rule that I was tried to get to earlier, which is of course came from the... From Willem. From Willem. Yes. And are we, I ask this as someone that is new to the world of Rupal's Drag Race, Are we supposed to love Willem?

Are we supposed to hate Willow? Yeah. Listen, that's whose podcast I was just referring to. I listened to Willem's podcast. Okay. I listened to Willem and Alaska's podcast. I think Willam is, I mean, is so funny. I love Willem.

But I think that they're trying, Willam came on to that show, season four, with a lot more experience, like, and had done acting and had done all this stuff. So he kind of knew how the game was being played. He did, he made it, he cheated around and got his spouse to come visit him. Uh-huh. And then they were like, you gotta go and he was like, okay, bye.

Like, and he, you know, apparently there's a rumor that he ate too much at craft services and made himself throw up. And that's why he threw up. Like, he ate too much at lunch. Like, he knew he was going home. So he like overfed like, but like, but like, I don't think, I think if the show wants you to hate him, I don't know. But you, everyone should listen to his podcast a little bit. He, I think he's like an incessant name dropper. And that's my only fault with him.

I think he's very funny and great and very smart. I guess that's a good question. question two is like are there other podcasts that you would recommend surrounding the show? Yeah. I love Race Chaser. Okay. So Race Chaser is a podcast with Willem and Alaska. Okay.

It actually airs twice a week. One as Race Chaser where they recap current episodes and classic episodes. So they'll be, they'll, they've started from the beginning. They've done season one, season two. I think they're on season six right now. And they'll stop when a new season comes on and do that season. Damn. And then go back to an old season.

and then the other time a week it's called Hot Goss, and it's just them talking about stuff going on in their lives, news of the week, they answer letters from fans, they look at dickpicks on the DMs. That's what I listen to more. Because I've already watched a lot of drag race, and I like them just talking. I think they're so funny. I also love Trixie and Katia's podcast, The Bald and the Beautiful.

Yes. They are so funny. They talk to past drag race people. They talk to other people in their lives that are just fun, and it's about beauty. but to me the best episodes are just the two of them together. I cannot also recommend highly enough, which is their internet show that they do on YouTube and World of Wonder app.

That's how I got into Drag Race, to be totally honest. I started watching that and was like, this is so fucking funny. If Drag Race is like this, I want to watch it. And then the other podcast is Drag Her, which is Mano Agopian has a podcast that, I think Nicole Byer used to be that I've been on it. And Nicole was the co-host

And I think maybe now it's Rachel Bloom. I don't really know who's actually But drag her is a good one. And yeah, those are my off the top of my head, my drag podcast. Love it. I just, and I really enjoy all of the people that you just mentioned.

And I do want, because in the way that like I didn't really want to dive into untucked necessarily for my brain, I would like to hear them just talk shit though. Yeah. Because honestly, it makes me feel like I need to be more creative and how I talk shit.

I don't know how to read for shit. And watching them read each other, I'm just like, man, I got my game. I'm not very good at this. As someone that was a bully for a long time, I'm certainly not good enough at this. And before we go on, I really do want to talk real quickly

because I went down quite a worm time looking into Rupal's designer named Zaldi. Kara, did you, Did you meet Zaldi at all? I've never met Zaldi, but I've seen Zaldi because when they did one of the, like, you know, we'll do like the spring fall fashion challenge, usually like the first episode. Yes, yeah.

Zaldi will be a job. Zaldi will be in the little, they'll make it look like fashion week where it's like ruin and Zaldi will be sitting there. But I, I never met Zaldi and, but I am intrigued by Zaldi. What did you find out? I just, I went into such a time of just reading into essentially, Zaldi refers to their relationship as like a Bob Mackey share relationship. And we just recently did share.

So then I started looking into the relationship of Zaldi and Rupal. I'm not going to go into all of it here because they met in the late 80s at La Pallas debut, a nightclub in Union Square. And Zaldi went up to Rupal to talk clothes. And he says, Rue had worn the same outfit two nights in a row. And when I brought it up, Rue told me, when it works, it works, it was. works. And that is when they started working together. That essentially ever since, ever since the supermodel music video, Zaldi has designed for Roo Paul and has gone through, like, he

went through all of these different eras of Rue where there was a time when he was really way more into how his waist looked in comparison to his hips and his shoulders. And that was a big focal point. And then there was a time when he decided to switch and he never had wanted to show his legs, into wanting to show his legs. And Zaldi, that was everything he wanted. He was like, thank you. Give me those legs. Because, I mean, Rupal's legs go on for days.

And Rupal goes on to say, I wouldn't go anywhere without Zaldi. Since supermodel, our communication has gone from shorthand to telepathic. Bottom line, Zaldi gets it. Rupal says, I've never had to give Zaldi direction. The groundwork and the aesthetic for our collaboration was built many, many years ago so that Zaldi has free reign in terms of direction. And if you look up just the design work that goes into specifically RuPaul's outfits for the show,

it's unbelievable. And I never really, honestly, there's so much happening on the show that I wasn't paying attention to what RuPaul was wearing, honestly. And then I started paying attention to what RuPaul was wearing. And I was like, fuck! Yeah, always like, damn. I mean, every episode is, it's, there's a...

To the nine's! Yeah. And she bring it to you. every ball. Yes. And it barely takes six hours for RuPaul to get ready. And he usually doesn't like anyone to see the process. Now, is that also, I imagine, also under lock and key on set, Kara?

Yes, yes, yeah. Like, Roo, like, has his own wing of one of the soundstages that's, like, blocked off. And, like, no one goes down there except for, like, the very top producers and Raven who does the makeup and his assistant. So like Rue's assistant. So like there's, yeah, like I would pass that curtain all the time and be like, wow, Rue's back there getting ready. But like I obviously have never been back there.

Yeah, of course. And it does take like, you know, six or seven hours for her to get into drag. So it's like a, it's a big thing. And yeah, I always wonder like what happens to those dresses after she wears them because if it works, it works is one thing. But I don't think she wears anything twice anymore. No. You know, so I'm like, I know that she has a storage space somewhere with like a ton of clothes in L.A.

But I don't know. Like, do those things get, I mean, the Smithsoniania studio Rupal like fashion thing. Oh, yeah. Especially now that Rupal has become such a huge part of pop culture. Yeah. I think that finally that he will, he is getting the recognition that he's worked this hard to get. I mean, sometimes for negative reasons, but that's okay. But I know Michelle Visage sells her stuff on Poshmark, I think.

Really? Really? Good to know. I think so. I think she would say that. Hell yeah. We have the same birthday, by the way, me and Michelle Missa. Oh, yeah.

Oh, birthday twins. Did you get to hang out with her a lot? Is she the Simon Cowell that she pretends to be on the show? You know, I will say that Ross and Carson were so immediately lovely to me and so nice right away. That Michelle takes a little bit more getting to warm up to you. and we had a couple of moments. I wouldn't say we're best friends or anything, but we had a couple moments.

Like when I told her, when she was like, you just had a baby, because I went to Drag Race, having a five-week-old baby at home. And like when I, like Carson always asked me, how's your baby?

He was so sweet. And then one time she overheard and was like, did you have that baby naturally? And I go, yeah. And she was like, how much did she weigh? And I was like, nine pounds, three ounces. And she goes, because you're a woman.

She was like, giving me, she was very, for that one moment in time, she really respected me. Wow. At least you got that one. And I got that one moment. Of course, Michelle Visage, the longest running tenure as judge besides Rupal, having done 12 of the 13 seasons of the main drag race show, she was a big in the club scene in New York City, as well as the dragon ball scene and could be seen vogueing with Caesar

Valentino on the TV show The Latin Connection all the way back in 1988. She did music in the 90s in the R&B and dance vocal trio seduction. She also did radio and a lot of television with Rupal, including being co-host on Ruse VH1 talk show before joining Drag Race as a judge. So they've been tight for a very long time. Oh, yeah. And she actually takes being called the Simon Cowell of RuPaul's Drag Race as a compliment. She says, Simon is the only one who cuts to the chase.

He tells you what he's thinking. He tells you what needs to be fixed. And you want to please him. So that is my role on Rupal's drag race. You want to please me. I'm going to tell you the truth. In terms of the other tenure judges, there's also Santino Rice,

judged on seasons one through six, and Kara mentioned Ross and Carson. That's Ross Matthews, started out as an intern at the Tonight Show with Jay Leno and went on to do a lot of television work in various capacities, such as being a guest host on The View. Carson Lee Cressley, I was trying to remember,

I was like, what do I recognize him from? Of course, we're right from this great guy. He was actually a stylist. he worked for Ralph Lauren in the 90s became a household name when he starred in the Bravo series for the straight guy. So yeah, and then there's a couple other judges

but those are like the kind of long-term ones and then of course there's a ton of great guest judges. Yeah, how was it dealing with the guest judges, Kara? And obviously he wrote for them but how, like, did you have to interact with them or did any of them come up with their own stuff? No, I had to interact with the guest judges a little bit and it was mostly awesome.

I got to meet some really cool people And the cool thing is, is that, like, at this point, when I worked on the show, season 12, like, everybody's so gagged to be there that, like, for the most part, nobody's acting like an asshole. Nobody's acting like a diva. They're just, like, so excited that they're on the show. Right. When you guys were talking about how, you know, they walk the runway a couple times, like, you know, sometimes the second time also gives the guest judge a chance to say something. But a lot of times the guest judge is like a pop star. They're not good at improv and they're not funny.

Right. So, like, you know, we'll give them some lines and say, hey, do you want to record some. of these lines and we'll just record them audio, sing them, and then they'll, they'll sound like they're saying them while they're walking down the runway, you know? But for the most part, it was a dream meeting a lot of these, a lot of the guest stars, they were really cool. Hell yeah. Yeah. You're right. It's got to be just so exciting. Like, of course I want to do it. Because if you're already saying, like, I saw that, I think Dolly Parton's been asked to do it like 15 times and she's like, I don't have time for this. I love the show and I love what you're doing,

Rupal, but I don't have time for this. But then also, Lady Gaga, like, tweeted out, Please ask me. Yeah. And like, and when I was on it, Whoopi Goldberg was a guest. Oh, hell yeah. Whoopi Goldberg famously does not fly. So they had to wait for a time that she was busing across.

She takes a, like she takes like a big tour bus basically across the country. So they had to wait for like, you know, that, but they got Whoopi, you know. That's awesome. I love to. Michelle Visage is like really good friends with Leah Rameen. Oh, yeah. Those two are like a couple little. Spicy episode.

Click, click, click, click, click. Yeah. It does get spicy is a good word. to describe it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Super fun. Of course, the hardest part of the show is when we say goodbye to the contestants we love. Rupal said, I wasn't really prepared for the emotional rollercoaster. I had experienced in eliminating girls. But then, after the first season, I realized that even the first girl who is eliminated becomes a star and is world famous. So it doesn't really bother me that much. So at least there's that. But I think those are some of the most touching, you know,

in season six when Rupal's talking to Trinity and like gets emotional. And, you know, you see, I mean, there's a real connection there. It seems like, and as cutthroat as I'm sure it is as well, there seems to be these moments of like just people trying to pull each other up. Well, and that's what I also like of the, then there's the season like All Stars 2 where everyone does kind of get buddy, buddy, and then it comes, it hits you hard with All Stars Season 3 of like, I'm not your friend. We're in a sisterhood, fine, but I'm not your friend.

And it comes back to that bitey side of things because at the end of the day, day it is still a competition show. And you do have to be, you know, and part of that creating of a character of who you are on the show is being the mean one, is being the loud one, is being, regardless of who you are, you got to fit into one of them if you want to get the airtime. And you better work! You better work. So that's been like my mantra last two weeks.

And Garrett, did you ever feel that like that in the show and I, of course, it seems and a lot of queens blame the editing on how they are portrayed. But do you feel at least on the seasons, if you're allowed to speak to it, that there was anyone that you saw afterwards, you're like, that's really not what was happening. Yeah. I feel like that was. Because that, of course, was one of the big controversies, by the way.

I believe it was, and by the way, I just watched that season with Fifi. And, I mean, I guess there was editing going on there, but it didn't seem, you know, I mean, what was said was said. Fifi called out the show for editing things to misrepresent what happened on the show. What would you say, Karen? Listen, yeah, Fifi, it's like, it's kind of hard to say that so many moments of yours were taken out of context. Exactly. You just had so many moments and then you came back for this redemption storyline in All Stars and then it was the same shit.

Like, yeah. So like that's, that's one thing. But like, in a way that's just delusion. But, but like there's definitely, I'm not going to name any names, but like, there's definitely bad edits. They give people a bad at it sometimes. I'm not going to say like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think anyone can, I don't think anyone can deny that. I mean, there's like certain people that come on and they're just like, you know,

they're nervous or they're something, whatever. And the show like, like, heightens it to the point where it's like, oh, my God, they're so insecure. They're so bad. And it's like, no, that's not really how it was going down when you were watching it live. But also I find that the last like four seasons of the show has just been like a lot nicer. Like there's really not a villain. if there's a little scuffle, it's usually over in like two minutes.

Like even this last season, there was all this yelling on the show that it resolved very quickly and then it wasn't until offline on social media that they really like Tamisha Iman started having a lot of public issues. Scuffle on like, yeah, like some hullabaloo was going on on, on social media. And like that's just they resolve it so quick on the show. It's like I even think untucked the last. couple seasons is like nothing's really happening. We're not anywhere near what we were with like Shangela being like, right.

Because I am what, sick name? We're just, we're not getting these like classic fights anymore. And I think that that's kind of just the way the show is going. The show is going towards more positivity. Right, yeah, which is kind of important because I think now it's starting to become very representative in a lot of ways are becoming this flagship for, you know, pushing for equality, pushing for. And so I get why they were trying to.

like steer away from just like people screaming at each other, uh, to try to maybe not alienate. That's what sells the show. Yeah, like if you watch season, if you guys watch season three, there's literally a mean girl's plot where it's like boogers versus heathers. I mean, like, there's this like meanness undercurrent that's going on with like, we're the hot girls and you're the losers. And like now it's kind of like, hey, like you didn't give me that fabric that I wanted and that felt kind of hurtful and then they just resolve it and they move on. Right. They all know they're walking away with a career. Yeah.

And the only thing they can do to actually ruin that because even what's their name was saying that. Is that what Fifi was saying? Like, oh, after I left the show, it became like harder to get bookings in certain ways because of the way I was presented. So I think if everybody realizes like, if you're that person on the show,

that's the one thing you could do to fuck yourself out of having like a lot more money, a lot more, you know, work in the circuit, you know. Right. I think it also just goes, yeah, goes to show just also be nice in life. Yeah, I mean, just be a good person when you can, if you can. But that's not to say that I don't love a good read.

I don't think, I don't ever, I don't want them to ever take the edge out of drag in the sense of like when you are in like a sisterhood in a community, it's okay to like rib your friends and and do the puppet challenge and the reading challenge and stuff like that. Like that's all so valuable in drag. But I think, yeah, making there be a villain or telling someone you're just a loser, you're never going to be good. Like there's different, that's different. And also, again, it's the same way whenever we talk about roasting, you know, comedy roast, which it's not always my kind of humor unless it's funny. Yeah. Same with reading, same with shade.

Like, funny with it. Reading challenges. Yes. Like, that's kind of what that felt like. Like, oh, this is sort of a roast battle thing. Yeah. Well, but of course, I think what predated what actually now that I think about it. I mean, you know, it was reading and there was.

Probably, yes, I'm sure reading predated it. I don't know, Dean Martin roasts though back in the day. I don't even know. It's like forever. You know, it really, we, I like reading. Heteronormative culture has stolen so much from queer culture forever. It's kind of, it's really insane. Do you even think that this show was so hard to sell because people, like,

so many networks were like, we're not ready for drag. America isn't ready for this yet. Like, who is this? What's this gatekeeping? heteronorbid of bullshit. Yeah. Like, who are you speaking for? But it had to start on like a Farm League channel, essentially, you know, and then got to where it got.

Randy Barbato said, we don't have an agenda. We are not particularly political. We are all big, loud gaze. We always have been. But what makes us the happiest of anything about the nominations referring to the eight they got in 2017 for the Emmys is to be making a show that recognizes actual artists and gives them a platform. And not just the queens who are on our show, by the way, people are now. interested in drag in general. Season one winner, Baby Zahara

said, when we were done filming, I felt that unless you are a cold-hearted snake, there is no way that you will not identify with these persons, or personas rather, on television. That's how I knew this thing was going to be big. And it's definitely helped so much. I mean, you look at Bianca

Del Rio, and Bianca Del Rio, who has been traveling the world, has had four, like, sold-out comedy tours, and and Rupal started a lot of this and created a culture that made it not only that it was like four solo comedy tours that were also went international as well and is bringing this to a forefront of like this is a part of

entertainment and comedy that should be respected and it wasn't for such a long fucking time that now we get to see Alaska Thunder fuck explode and have a bunch and Trixie Mattel doing that the Orville Peck song. Oh, so good. I don't know if you are your fan of Orville Peck. I know that they did a collab, but I didn't see it.

It's great. They sing Jackson together, and it's just unbelievable. I love Trixie's music. I like have Trixie's music. I really like her albums. I really like her music. Season 9 contestants Sasha Valor said this about watching season one. At the time, I remember watching it and being so shocked to see people who were that

queer looking on TV. Up until that point, I was dressing up in drag. but I didn't live anywhere that had a drag bar scene. As the show aired, it started showing up in places, and I took my drag out of the bedroom and onto the stage as a direct result of watching drag race. Hell yeah. It's amazing.

And Sasha's like just like an artistic powerhouse. I mean, Sasha's like a performance artist. Like, really. And also, now that I'm getting more familiar with the entire community, I'm realizing how much I've seen so many of these queens in someone that works in pop culture and just didn't realize who they were. And I'm ashamed of myself

and here I am admitting it. But we have to learn some time and I'm so excited to be a part of it now. Of course there are just to not leave him out some spinoffs and international versions. There's all stars we've been talking about plenty. I mean, it's fantastic. Especially because we keep talking about how

even the losing contestants, they get these great careers afterwards and so it's so great to see these fan favorites get a second opportunity to come back and really show and show us the growth. And also, if you thought that it was difficult selling drag race in the States, it was very difficult to get it, to pitch it over at BEC. The international versions, yeah. Yes, BBC was especially afraid.

Barbados said it's not the audience or the fans, it's the gatekeepers, it's the executives. No shade intended. They need to discover the show first. It's often because their kids tell them about it. And that's actually how they got into the pitch room to sell drag race UK is because one of the executives' teenager was like, you should watch the show. Everyone in the States is obsessed with the show, watched it, and then took the meeting with them. Yeah, there's now a Chilean one.

There's Thailand, which apparently one of the seasons, that is particularly solid. The UK one people attribute to kind of helping them in that early stages of pandemic. I believe UK too. I love UK. It's so good. Yeah. I need to go watch it. Australia and Espagna all have versions now of drag race.

So we talked about a couple of the controversies. Feefei saying the editing told lies. We talked about the Willem stuff. But then, of course, there's also been some controversy surrounding trans stuff and Rupal's reaction to that stuff. I know one of the first big ones, season six, had a female or she-mail challenge, which Queens had to guess of a celebrity.

portrait was of a biological or psychological woman, quote unquote. After a viewer outcry, they removed the episode from all streaming platforms. And a joint statement was issued from RuPaul and the producers who said, we delight in celebrating every color in the LGBT rainbow. When it comes to the movement of our trans sisters and trans brothers, we are newly sensitized and more committed than ever to help spread love acceptance and understanding. That was the joint statement. Of course, later RuPaul, though, did say, our show has always come from a place of love. And the people who called us out, they knew our position was a place of love. They intentionally misrepresented our intention to further their cause and to bring attention

to themselves. So it's a big, you know. And he has gone on. Unfortunately, Rupal has said drag loses its sense of danger and its sense of irony once it's not men doing it in reference to having trans people on the show. Now, this was a couple of years ago and the Vox article that I read did write this. You have to understand that he, Rupal, built his career on the principle that no one should take themselves or gender particularly seriously. In fact, as he told Vulture, his vision of drag is that it's meant to remind culture to not take itself seriously. When he gets asked about the trans community's relation to drag, he said, he just gets bored

because we mock identity. They take identity very seriously. And he has drawn the line between trans and drag. And I do not agree with what he has said. But if there's one thing we have realized about Rupal, especially in the past couple of episodes, is that Rupol worked very hard to get where he's gotten, and he believes what he fucking believes,

and he's very stubborn about it. And he has apologized for what he said, and I know that he wouldn't apologize for no fucking reason, but it is hurtful, and it is upsetting to the trans community for Rupal who's supposed to be, and wants, like, no mean-spiritedness in queer culture, and to bring the subculture up to the, you know, the nomenclature.

And it does sadden everyone when they hear him say these things. And it sucks because it does take something away from this show. And now that they are trying to be more inclusive, they're trying to include more diverse queens as well as trans queens. And I know that they are working on this. But it's hard because I really respect. RuPaul, but I don't respect how he feels about this. And when, in referencing to...

Yes, I will also say, but I get the whole part where it's like the whole time I've been, we've been making fun of gender, you know? It's like a hard and like a lot of, you know what I mean? So I don't know. And it's, it's difficult. Because also, again, it's not my culture. And I can't speak for it. but I felt we would be remiss to not talk about what RuPaul said.

Sure, I think it's definitely a part of the story and it's continually ongoing. And they have recently did have their first trans contestants. Yes, which I am happy about. But he's still fracking on that 60,000 acres of land he's got with the fracking. Kara, what do you think about trans? I'm a Stan Forgotmic, baby. And as trans drag king, K James puts it, The major point of performing as a trans person for me is taking control of how people see me

because trans people are objectified. We face violence and street harassment or just being generally stared at, being objectified in pathologized. Pathologized. Pathologized. You don't use pathologized by doctors in the medical community as a whole. But when you're a trans person and you get to put yourself on stage, you're basically inviting people to objectify you in a way.

But you're taking back that control of that objective occasion. And I also have some closing quotes. Okay. Before we close it out, Kara, anything else to add about your time working on the show? I'm just so happy that we got you here to talk about this because it's amazing. No, I mean, I'm always happy to answer questions, but I'm like, at the top of my head, I'm like, I don't know. I, listen, I enjoyed the time that I worked there. I had some problems with working there.

It wasn't all rainbows and roses, but I'm still so deeply obsessed with the show that it speaks to the show. Like literally, even though sometimes I'll watch it and I'll be like, I can see what they're doing here. And like, it doesn't matter. I just love the show. I love drag so much that I'm so excited. The world's opening back up because I'm dying to go see some live drag again.

Hell, yeah. And also, if I may be so bold, do you have a favorite drag queen from all of your time of watching New Paul's Drag Race? A favorite? Can I do like four favorites or something? Hit us with your four. Yeah. With your favorites.

My favorites are Jinks, Bob, Trixie, Alaska. I mean, those are probably very standard. But I love those fucking queens. I also loved Crystal Method, as I said, in her season.

Just a wacko. I love her. Controversial statement, I'm going to go ahead and throw it out there. I want a detox to win All-Stars 2. Oh. And I'll fucking say it. I love detox.

I love detox. served better looks on the runway. I love detox. I mean, detox in the black and white at the finale. It's like one of the most amazing feats I've ever seen. And I will also say Che Koula is a favorite. We just had her on the live podcast, a live version of my podcast. Hell yeah.

And she was so great. I love her. Oh, hell yeah. Well, RuPaul said for my final quote, Jackie, and then you can do yours. I didn't know how poignant and how deep the show would be. I knew that we were going to celebrate the art of drag. I didn't know the several levels of importance the show would have. It means a lot to me because I've been famous for many years.

I've done very well and made a great living at it. But ultimately, all of that really does fade away. And what you're left with is what you did to be of service to human beings on this planet. And I feel I've been a part of something that has been of service to humans on this planet because of our show. Hell yeah. Try to out final quote me with that one, Jack. Out final quote you. This is also from Rue.

My therapist said, you know, the power that you feel in drag, or my Superman or Wonder Woman, you know, you can access that at any time. I tell you it had never occurred to me because you put the outfit on and immediately people see you differently. They treat you differently. But I have that same power out of drag, which is monumental. It's huge that concept. And I want the kids on the show, the contestants. I want them to understand that that is huge. And for anyone listening, you can access that.

power at any time. You are an extension of the power that created the whole universe. Stop playing small. Play your greatness. Do your greatness. I think most people don't play their greatness because it takes a lot of responsibility. You have to be mindful and you have to take care of yourself. And you better work. You better work. Thank you again so much, Kara for coming on the show. again, Kara is a co-host of that's messed up, an SVU podcast. You can find it wherever you get your podcast. And Kara, do you have anything else to plug? I'm on Instagram at Kara Clank.

Follow me. Let's see what shakes out. I love this. Thank you again. And my name is Jackie Zabrowski. You can follow me on Instagram with Jack. That Worm. Hold McNeely. Check me out.

Twitch.com. Forward slash Hold daters ho. Patreon. Patreon.com forward slash page 7 podcast. That's all I'm going to say. Enjoy us on Fridays. Jacking with the holdies. 6 p.m. ET. And we're going to keep talking to you about Rupal's drag race over at Jacket with the Holdies.

So come join us every Friday. We love you guys and we'll talk to you soon. Hell yeah. Take care. This show is made possible by listeners like you. Thanks to our ad sponsors. You can support our shows by supporting them. For more shows like the one you just listened to, go to lastpodcastnetwork.com.