Page 7 - Pop History: The Birdcage

Episode Date: June 8, 2021

Break out the Pirin tablets and get ready for our journey into the world of the 90’s classic The Birdcage for Pride Month!Want even more Page 7? Support us on Patreon! Patreon.com/page7podcastKevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0 Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes of Page 7 ad-free.Start a free trial now on Apple Podcasts or by visiting siriusxm.com/podcastsplus. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

What is this dream I see? Yeah. Why does it seem so real to me? Put your hands up! A little dream before your card. Let's get it on. Stop talking about it. I'm singing.

We're helping. A singer-songwriter? I might be a singer-songwriter. I may have written a couple songs lately, but we're not here to talk about that episode is going to be probably about five years from now after I get my couple of Grammys under my belt. We're gonna do a pop history.

Are you gonna do it on yourself? As soon as I get the EGOT, we're gonna do a pop history on myself. So what, like two and a half years from now? I'm gonna say five years to be safe and to be nice and fair to all my, like, haters. Ugh, they're out there. You know what I mean?

They are out there. Or whatever. Essentially as soon as I make Ariangre, I'd be like, oh, what is my career? Who am I? So well, yeah. How can I even exist when he's doing so much better? But surprisingly, we're not here to talk about

any of those things. We're here to talk about. about the bird cage. We are here to talk about the bird. No. Not real birds. Not a real bird. The fact bird, that is.

The fact bird. Yeah, we wanted to do pride-themed episodes for Pride Month. And, you know, it's funny, though, because we did rent, I don't even think purposely for Pride Month. No. But I had already talked about how,

oh, Rent was one of my first experiences with, like, looking at queer culture. And then I watched Birdcage. I was like, oh, no, no. This was my first experience. seeing a lot of queer culture stuff. I mean, to the point where I think the first time I saw the movie, I almost didn't know what to think of it, right?

And now it has since become the same kind of movie for me that Paul Thomas Anderson said it was for him. He said that the Shining and the Birdcage are the two films that no matter what's happening, if it's on the TV, he stops everything and he watches it to the end. Yeah, this was the kind of movie that I could watch over and over and over again and just never and just, we watched again last. night, and I was like, I didn't even need to watch this in preparation.

No. I think this is one of those movies is like on my list of movies I've seen more than most. I still watch it twice a year. I still will just throw it on. I, it is one of my family's favorite movies. I know that we did steal magnolias. Birdcage is the other movie that is up there with Steel Magnolia is that my family quotes constantly, will always constantly watch. And it's interesting that you say that. I think that I was so young that I was when I first started watching the Birdcage, because I remember going to see it in the movie. theater with my mom and I think it was eight. And I didn't even know why. I thought it was like, oh, I didn't even understand that they were a gay couple. I was like, oh, they just don't like

them. Oh, really? I think a beautiful way to look at it. You really, like, as someone like, we grew up, you know, in a very theater-esque kind of family. So I think that it was just the kind of thing of like, oh, they're different. They're really conservative and they have a lot of fun. Yeah, I think too as a kid, I didn't realize that the gravity of the storyline. Yes. Because in dance too, you're not, it's not like you're exposed to gay people in dance. But at the time in the 90s, that wasn't normal. For example, at my school, that would have been considered very strange.

Yeah. But which sucks. It's terrible. Oh, yeah, yeah. But for me, I didn't realize the weight of that couple being gay and what that meant. And it was interesting. I was reading this review that was talking about how, like, the bird cage was at first, it was groundbreaking because it was the first big movie that featured a homosexual couple

that was not about AIDS. Yeah. And I never thought about that before because Philadelphia came out in 93, three years before. And it just, by that point, I mean, this really was the palate cleanser from the AIDS epidemic in terms of gays in the media because it was just all about, yeah, how they were suffering and dying and, you know, disease. It was just tragic. And that shit happened.

And so it was important. Which was a large part of the queer culture for quite some time. Important that people wrote stories about it. But at the same time, it's also a vibrant, beautiful, colorful. I love that final shot at the end of the movie with the two different, the two sides of the aisle at the wedding. And you just have this bland, boring people in suits. And that's totally what my family would look like during that time, whatever.

And then they're looking across the aisle at this viands. vibrant, colorful, beautiful thing. And you're just like, which group do you want to be a part of? Yeah. You know, and I think that that was one of the big game changers for me and looking at it, because I agree, Natalie, like, I was thinking about how afraid I was of queerness societally in my community in the South at that time.

Yeah. I mean, just... Especially for guys. For a guy to be associated with that was so... And it's just so interesting because you think back on it, you're like, how do these rules form they just do, right? Because of the way the community is, right? Right? Because I just don't look at Pride Month and queerness or in any of these things in that way, like, at all.

Well, it's conservative culture that's sadly watching it. It was like, oh, this is not really very different now. Yeah, yeah, I can see that. This guy looks so much like Mike Hacobie and they are, like, they're spewing the same trash right now. Rush Limbaugh is a reference in the fucking movie. Oh, yes. It's like amazing. I mean, I totally agree with you, but to have those things, those characters brush up against each other and to have them interact and to have these and make a comedy out of it too. I think I have a quote in here about how important it was for it to be a comedy too at the end of the day because we just, it teaches so, I think so much better sometimes about, you know, cultures and things.

And I will say, I mean, my parents are quite liberal and very like, you know, LGBT-friendly and all that stuff growing up, you know, for sure. but even still I just feel like I don't know hanging out as a family and like watching that movie I think we did watch it together at home and that was so important that was like such an important moment that I now think back and I'm like oh my god this movie was important

and not just like a fucking hilarious awesome film with some of the best comic actors Nathan Lane Robin Williams everybody's just killing it in this movie comedian Gene Hackman is killing it in this movie comedically but Jackie I think you're right in that it was really to, in a way, I think it was important as kids for us to not see this as like this gravity movie because it was just showing a couple and that's a normal couple

who are fighting. Normalizing a happy gay couple. Right. Yes. And just seeing that as a normal couple, I think was important to us as younger people. And how Nathan Lane toes the line of like being a gay caricature and not and being so human and so raw and so... Well, that's what they were really striving for,

was to not just be a character of queer culture. Where also Nathan Lane talks about this, at this time, he was out to his family, but he wasn't publicly out. So it was very difficult for him that he was like, well, I guess this is me. And there were interviews afterwards that there was an Oprah interview

where he was asked about his sexuality and he just kind of dodged the question. Oh, wow. obviously, like, this was very important to him of how this character was to be portrayed. And it's, in my head, I'm like, that wasn't even that long ago. But then we remember, it was. It just came up on the 25th anniversary of this movie, which also means we are old. Yes.

We are very old. I feel like this movie just came out and it did it. I do remember watching it the first time for once. By the way, we came to the realization last night that, Henry's impression of your mother is a combination of your mother and the character Nathan Lane plays in this movie.

Because if you notice, your mother has a higher pitched voice than he does her as, and it is because he is doing the tone of Nathan Lane. Yeah. Oh, my God. I also, since we already brought up

Nathan Lane and all that good stuff, I want to go ahead and just say it was originally supposed to be Stephen Martin in Robin Williams' part. Robin Williams in the Nathan Lane part, Steve Martin dropped out. Robin Williams then said, hey, I just did Mrs. Doubtfire. I think I want to play the other part.

And then they got Nathan Lane, who's actually gay, to play that part. I think we'd be having a very different conversation in this room right now about this film, you know, 20 years from now. And so it was so important that that switch happened. Yeah, definitely. For this film to, I guess, this is always the question, right, do these movies hold up? This movie, I think, does hold up. It definitely has some issues. We'll get into it.

We will. But I think it holds up. It is even funnier than it used to be. It is crazy to me. It's so funny. I have seen this movie, I think, 50 times. And I laugh until my stomach hurts still. We always laugh.

Again, that Gene Hackman monologue, which I never understood as a kid. Now is, I think, one of the funniest parts, dazzling, I-75. I'm talking about the leaves. And how it's cold in the north and warmer in the south. And he's just going and going. going and also now realizing too, man, Diane Weiss is a ride or fucking die. She's such a badass. This was like right after she did Edward Scissorshands too.

She was crushing it. She's so good, man. I mean, this cast is unreal good. But first we, before we talk about the movie, we need to talk about the source material of where this comes from. Yeah, yeah. Because. And I think I always love 10 minutes in to give the synopsis of the show.

So let me go ahead and do that. Hell yeah. Gone way too far to discuss it. The Birdcage is a 1996 American comedy film directed by Mike Nichols. adapted by Elaine May and starring Robin Williams, Gene Hackman, Nathan Lane, Diane Weist, Dan Futterman, Callista Flockhart, Hank Azaria, and Christine Beranski. It is a remake of the 1978 Franco-Italian film La Caja Foll, which is based on a play and musical of the same name, just to lay the groundwork.

But yes, we'll start definitely with the play La Cajafol, a 1973 French farce written by Jean-Piore. For whom this is his best-known work. I'm actually a little better at the French names than I was just. just saying to Natalie and Jackie, don't worry, I do have to do Japanese names left and right and wisdom the bruiser every other episode, and those I butcher, but some of these I might get right. Jean-Pioux-Hugh?

I don't know. For whom, this is his best-known work. However, he first rose to prominence back in 1951, acting in a popular radio series in France. He later got into writing parodies and popular pieces at the time. I'm sure they all hold up. I'm sure, sure, they're all hilarious. Oh, sure, sure. But I do want to say that this is, for the time period, 1973, this is also a

big deal. Big deal. This, and like, it's so interesting to watch the transition of this from play to movie to to a musical to movie again and how it is grown with time, which is why I am sad that later on we'll talk about why there's not going to be a sequel. But I think that it is something that can be adaptable over time and have the same weight of the, and be just as far. Very sadly, nothing's changed in culture.

Which is disgusting. For sure. And, yeah, also it's writer Jean-Pierre, I should say, starred in it as Renato Baldi, the Robin Williams Armand role. Yes. As well, in the original play. He started in the play and was going to start in it in the movie. Okay, yeah, but he ends up, yeah, he gets replaced, right? Oh, he does.

Interesting. I think you've got the beef on that. Yeah, I got the beef. The title literally means the cage of crazy women. However, Foll is also slang for effeminate homosexuals or queens, as we refer to them in the U.S., a little plan words there. The plot is basically the same. Like the play upon which it is based, the film tells the story of a gay couple, Renato Baldi, the manager of a St. Tropez Nightclub featuring drag entertainment and Albin Morgon de Jetta, his star attraction and the madness that ensues when

Renato's son Laurent brings home his fiance, Andrea, and her ultra-conservative parents to meet them. The original French production premiered at the Teatro de Pellé. Oh, no. It's February. in 1973. And it actually, it ran for almost 1,800 performances. That is a very strong run. So it must have been very popular. Yes. During the, in the early 70s, which is how we get to this film.

Give me the beef, Jackie. Where's the beef? So, Piawe was originally playing Renato, who did work on the screenplay for the movie, but they were bringing in Italian preempty. producers on the project, so they wanted a little bit more of an Italian flair in the movie, which is why they brought in Italian star Hugo Donazzi to come in to play Renato in the movie. Now, these are people that were both Broadway people, so the person that played Albin on

Broadway also played Albin in the movie. And from the transition from the play into the original film, they wanted to ground the characters a lot more. They wanted to take because on the stage, it was the big gay stereotypes. And what I liked about this is that Molinero, was that Molinero decided to bring humanity into the film. I think you mean, Melianna. No, I think that he's Italian. So, please.

There it is. There he is. And apparently it made the actor who was playing Albin originally very uncomfortable because he did. because he didn't, he was fine with playing an overt caricature of a homosexual man, but he himself was not homosexual and he was very uncomfortable playing a more sedate version

of the character, which has got to be difficult to do that many performances on Broadway and then have to do the same character, same lines, but change it dramatically. But that, and I have never actually... And on film, it's so difficult than a stage play. Yes, definitely.

And that's what Molinero describes Sirald's difficulty in playing a real homosexual. He says it didn't bother him to play a screaming transvestite queen performing a number on stage. In the play, it was almost like a clown act. But we asked him for a greater reality in depth, and he wasn't very comfortable with that. However deep his discomfort,

that element of humanity and tenderness makes the film more than a well-oiled farce filled with stereotypical characters. I've never seen it until yesterday. It's great. And I, of course, you're like, all right, yeah. What's sad is that it was like, it could never be the birdcage though.

Go ahead. Act your play, will you? Go ahead. Be the actual original version of the thing. Make me laugh. It's not my birdcage. It is very funny to watch. And it is almost,

a lot of it is word for word, except for, you know, the improvisations from the bird cage. But to see it done in a different but just as funny way. Yeah. Really. But it was down to like even the like,

the way. it was set up was all the same. Well, structurally, it's so sound. Yes. Right? I mean, it's just from the very beginning of Nathan Lane's character being upset, thinking that he was having an affair into it actually being the sun, and it's all like, it's just a total switch to roof.

And you can definitely see the roots of it being a play in the movie. Yes. Very much. And usually you feel that the whole way through, but you get lost in the bird cage. Oh, for sure. Even though it's largely in one setting. Yeah. In that apartment.

Yeah, the way in the play, you're watching the house change, and they have just the one room that they're rearranging. From scene to scene, yeah. But no, but they transform it in a really good way. Oh, I, for sure. I'm such a nerd for, like, awesome scene work. And, like, they're really, it's happening here just constantly. Sorry, I just wrote down the line when Aguador says,

Good evening. May I take your purse as usual? Or for the very first time. It's so good. It's so funny. The whole concept of a person not being able to walk in shoes. Because they make it fall down. And I forgot about just thinking of that as a thing.

Like the idea that putting shoes on would make you not be able to walk. It's like the funniest concept to be just on its own. It's so funny. It makes me so happy. It does, but it also makes me sad. You know, it does make me sad. This is actually, we were talking about this. This is the first time I haven't cried in preparation.

But Natalie and I both did still. Of course, the late great Robin Williams, who just exudes warmth and beauty in this role. And he adds to such a layer of sadness to a lot of his comedy roles, including this one. There are moments where I'm just, like, lost in his eyes, and he has such a sadness to him. There's something going on. It's so gorgeous. But, yeah, the, also I wanted to throw out Ennio Morricone did the score, which is pretty cool. For the original film. For the original film. And the film was distributed by United Artists, and though it was a long, shot, the film ended up being insanely popular, not just in France, but in other parts of the world, most especially the U.S., as the film got a full English dub. And this was from an article

on Criterion.com by David Aronsteen, who said, the comic confusion that ensues in this third pivotal scene involving ludicrously straight redecorating comically credulous in-laws, potentially delicious political scandal, and drag queens galore is priceless. Yet underneath all the raucous laughter stands a very serious. truth. The fierce graciousness with which Soralt and Tognazzi go through their paces is not only funny but

deeply touching. For while some spectators may have come to laugh at the likes of Albin and Renato, they soon find themselves laughing and feeling for them. The reason is simple. Albin is Lawrence mother in every way save for his gender. Consequently, the plot's

climactic revelation of who he, she really is, is weds, farce logic to strongly felt moral conviction. And that in a nutshell is why, after all these years and all these incarnations, like Hajafol is more of the moment than ever. Once an idle pipe dream, gay marriage is on the fast track to becoming a reality worldwide. Who knew a French farce would lead the way? Which is, it's interesting to watch that at this time it was of the moment and that it kept

getting more and more updated. And now watching it, I read a lot of since the 25th end of first. Just came up. A lot of people are like, this is so, this is so dated. Yeah. It's so dated in what it has to say. But I just, in looking at it, but it was not dated at the time. Yeah.

I know that that, of course, obviously. I think it's a valuable time capsule to this period. Yes. That I don't look at it and I look at it more of, and thinking, man, I wish we've gone further than we've had. Rather than saying that's outdated. I wish that I'd be like, I wish it were way more outdated. It's not that outdated.

Yeah. Yeah. It's truth for sure. Truth. Yeah, I'm brave. Whatever. Truth. Queen, yes.

What I was supposed to say, I'm afraid of women. The musical, let's talk about it. Let's talk about the 1983 Broadway production. Nine nominations for Tony Awards, one, six, including best musical, best score, and best book. It was done by Harvey Firestein, which makes a lot of sense. Yeah, yeah. Harvey Firestein. Jerry Herman, who also composed the score

for Hello Dolly. And apparently La Cajafo was Broadway's first homosexual musical. Which I mean, I don't know if that's true. That's but... On the outside. And the director, apparently, wouldn't even allow his lead characters on stage

to kiss each other on the cheek because he was worried about offending the Broadway critics. And so crazy. So crazy. This is the era of cats. All people want is to do co-cats. and see animals dance on stage.

Very, very straight cats. Yeah, they're incredibly straight cats. Well, that's what they were called, straight cats. Straight cats, yeah. They changed the name to cats because they were like, why do we have to make sure that they know their sexual identity? The musical runs for, but for five years, 1,7161 performances, I mean, that is a solid-ass run, though,

for this being this kind of new thing, this risky thing, I guess, maybe for the time, I'm not sure. And Gene Barry and George Harne play. the original people in the musical, and Jean Barry said, I've never been in something that's had this kind of acceptance. Heterosexual couples see themselves in George and Albin.

So does everybody in the audience. It's an amazing transference. What a beautiful gift this play is to us, the actors, and to the audiences. And then George Hearn says, one of my favorite lines in the show is when the son George conceived in a moment of abandon, the son George and Albin then raised from infancy,

brings home his fiance and she's asked about us. Did you know about them? And her answer is no, but now that I do, it doesn't matter. I like them, which is also, Colista Flockhart does in a movie as well where it's like the idea of not only acceptance of like, oh, this is something that should be a part of our normal everyday lives, but they even do put it in there of like even the daughter of a very conservative family that it's not about changing the next generation.

It's about opening the eyes to the current older generation. And that's what this musical was really trying to do, especially with Broadway, where, you know, to call it the first homosexual musical is, I think, is insane. That's crazy. What about Starlight Express? Also, what to throw it out there.

This is kind of just an interesting little detail. The musical is actually based on the play. It's not based on the film. So in the musical, they were unable to include the character of Jean-Michaul's birth mother. That was created for the film. And obviously, Jean-Michaels' birth mother, the character that is

the American version of Jean-Michael is in the birdcage, right? And played by the fuck, she's Christine Brandsky. She's the best. I love her. I love their scene together in the office when they do the song and dance. It's so beautiful. And yeah,

so yeah, just a weird thing. The musical's based on the play, the movie's based on the other movie, and not to be confused, right? Very bizarre. But either way, I want to get to Nichols and May, our comedy duo who will end up eventually creating this great film. It was written by Elaine May.

It was directed by Mike Nichols. Maybe I thought about you, Holden, because they were like besties. Are Nichols and May? I love it. Hey! Hey, Nichols and May! All right, whatever. What am I?

Gay horse. I'm the bird. You're the gay horse. You're the gay horse. Okay. That's fine. As long as I could be there. Yeah, I would say.

I got to say, I'm. I think we might need to do a whole episode on Mike Nichols because I went down a bit of a worm time. He's incredible. Wow. And that so much of the work that he has done as a director, because there was this after he passed, there's this amazing interview with this panel of all these celebrities that he's worked with through the years that like talking about how a lot of his work came from his survivor's guilt because he was Jewish. in, I believe, Germany during World War II

and they escaped and like his dad had gotten already over because I believe he was a doctor and the kids were hidden and shipped to America separate from their family and that a lot of like things like any you wouldn't do anything that had to do with the Holocaust

he had lots of issues in his life of dealing with how he felt about that obviously and it's just so crazy to think that like the how his debilitating, really, depression came in and out of his life. And that's why the bird cage is very important, because this was one of his first movies back after a huge depression.

But we don't need to get into that just yet. And also, the whole thing of Nichols and May and this comedy duo that I'd always heard that before, right? I feel like I'd heard the phrase Nichols and May. Nichols and gay horse. And gay horse. Antiquated, yeah. And that whole thing.

And they were like, yeah, they did that whole thing. And then the horse was like, we can't get a horse on the stage. We gotta stop using this one. And I say, I will not perform if the horse is not on the stage. Thank you. You're welcome. So, yeah, that they were this game-changing comedy duo that was largely improvisational. That was largely eye-opening in terms of just a, a lot of times they dip into scenes where they were like in a relationship.

Even though they were very briefly, I believe, in one, but not really. Their relationship was almost completely professional. They weren't. It was completely professional. And it's crazy because I've got a bunch of quotes of like how. The way they talked about each other, they were work wife and work husband. They were straight up like,

they loved each other unconditionally and they trusted each other when it came to anything creative and that this was the first project, the bird cage, that they worked on from beginning to end completely together. And even Nathan Lane went on to say, he's like, it was wonderful to see Mike and Elaine together during the making of the birdcage.

Not only because it was their reunion, but they had this wonderful relationship and he was so tickled by her sense of humor. It was a kind of brother and sister relationship, and he was very protective of her. She's so fiercely intelligent. She hardly needs protection, but she'd be eating at a catering table,

and he would sometimes go over and just brush away a few crumbs. It was very sweet how he protected her and was very protective of her script, which is why, which we'll talk about later, he wanted the script to be done the way the script was written because of his respect for his writing partner. Yes. team.

Yeah, so Elaine May was the daughter of theater director and actor parents. She would perform with her father in his traveling Yiddish theater companies, so she learned about the road very early. She had been in 50 different schools by the age of 10. Damn. After her father's death at the age of 11, she and her mother moved to L.A. And she soon dropped out of school and was married at the age of 16, of course, because she's in L.A., and we all know what happens to you in L.A. at that time period.

Gobbled up. And she was pursuing acting. To who? Who is she married to? For some reason I didn't get that. Usually I do find out the weird grief that she was married to. I'm sure he was like 30. Gross. She wound up moving to Chicago to take classes at the University of Chicago,

auditing them without actually enrolling. And that's where she met Mike Nichols, who remembers her showing up at his philosophy class and making wild comments, then leaving. And later a director introduced me to him saying, Mike, I want you to meet the only other person on campus of the University of Chicago, who's as hostile as you are. Elaine May.

Apparently she would just like, even though she wasn't even paying for school there, she would like audit classes and get into fights with professors. And like really was just incredibly upfront and outspoken about who she was and how she felt. Mike Nichols, you already talked about some of this. Mike Nichols was born in Germany under the name Mikhail Igor Pestowski and had to flee.

You're so international. I know. They all, and it's weird how every other country gets very unrelixed and then very intensely says, their name. I don't know why, but he had to flee with his brother alone to the U.S. at the ages of seven and three to meet up with their father after the Nazis started arresting Jews in Berlin. His mother followed suit shortly after.

His father also died at an early age, and he ended up in the University of Chicago in the pre-med program. His father was actually a doctor. So he ends up finding the theater in Chicago and briefly studied method acting in NYC under Lee Strasbourg. By the way, how many times we brought up Lee Strasberg in these motherfucking episodes? Obviously, if you're an actor, you're going to find out about Lee Strasbourg, but like, maybe check them out if you're interested in acting. Before returning to Chicago to join the Compass players in 1955, he studied with Lee Strasbourg,

the compass players were an improv group that was the predecessor to Second City, where Elaine May was already performing, and the two began performing together. this turned into the comedy duo Nichols and May, which they took back to New York City. Essentially, they got too big for the improv troupe's britches. They were like, we should probably leave this troupe and be our own things. We're so successful and kind of blowing this group out of the water

with what they were doing. So they end up going together doing the Nichols and May Comedy Duo Act in New York City in 1958, and in 1960 they hit Broadway with their show an evening with Mike Nichols and Elaine May, which was a mostly sold-out run. They broke the traditional form of being, of one, yeah, I loved reading this,

because, like, how many, thinking back on, like, black and white comedy, like, one was always the idiot, and the other one that was always, like, the smart one, right? And they just broke that form of, like, always having that as the comedy duo dynamic, and really broke into scenes that had each playing all these different types of characters. Elaine May went against the traditional female comedy types

as well at that time playing a lot of sophisticated, intelligent, female working professionals in her scenes. And a lot of what they did as comedy, they spoke a lot very truthfully and honestly in comedic terms when they do like bits in relationships and stuff like that. They were essentially just opening the doors on what kind of material and what kind of comedy you could do from what I've gleaned, like outside of the old school like housewife and, you know,

working man and all this kind of stuff and got like a lot more honest about relationship dynamics and got a lot more just honest about and a lot more progressive I think in a feminist way and things like that. Yeah. From what I've gleaned. I haven't really heard a lot of their acts and stuff, but even But even it goes down to the kind of things that Mike Nichols worked on as well after all of this because he had four wives and his last wife was Diane Sawyer. But Angelica Houston. Yeah, isn't that crazy? There's a picture the two of them at the Birdcage premiere. Like, whoa, I didn't know he was married to Diane Sawyer. But he was, he respects women.

Angelica Houston, who worked with him multiple times, said he was not the least bit misogynistic, which given how most of those guys are, is very unusual. Yeah, it's sad that that's like, oh, there's that one guy. He really loved women and listened to them. He loved the presence of women. And that was another thing that kind of made him unusual, particularly in that era where the guys just seemed to love to hang with each other all the time. Mike liked to hang with the girls

and I think for all of the right reasons. So he was working with Elaine and also like right before this he did like working girl and all these like movies of writing the graduate of writing characters for women that weren't really being shown at the time.

And even down to I now can see the difference between Diane Weiss' character and the character in the original La Caja Foe where he definitely made her a person rather than just a set piece of a person. You know what I mean? And you can feel that in his work. And I know that working and respecting Elaine May so much

brought that to so much. And in fact, even Carly Simon said that he would talk with this. When he asked about the greatest influences and loves of his life, even in front of Diane, Sawyer, he would say Elaine and Diane were the two women in his life who had made the biggest impression. I always wondered if it bothered Diane. And apparently it didn't.

She just really liked that he was such good friends with women. I mean, I think Diane Sawyer can hold her own. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not like, she'll say Lexi fucking hates it. Oh, should we, are we breaking up right now? Oh, wow, this is a weird time to do. Lexi and the gay horse are getting it out. We're going to start her thing.

I don't know with the gay horse. No, you can't ever. We're going to have to cut you an app, Natalie. You guys have to, you guys, show me your packages. We got to do the king, whatever, and cut your nap, all right? I want the front. I'll take the back. Oh, no.

No, I don't want you to have the back. What if he has the midsection? I'll take the front of the back. You take the feet in the head. That's even worse. What's in the box? It's head. Anyways, I have completely lost this.

Oh, man. Steve Martin credits them as the first, Nichols-in-May, that is, as the first to satirized relationships and a big part of their routine involved arguing contemporary, banalities and poking fun at how self-serious they found the youth to be at the time, which I think is a lot of fun because they're probably getting into the hippie movement and the protesting and

stuff. Let's have fun. Yeah, yeah. And they're just like, whatever we just smoke is like, ah! At the height of their fame in 1961, they decide to disband their act and go in different directions with their respective careers. The birdcage is them reuniting, which I think is so special and so interesting. Elaine May ends up going more into playwriting and then screen playwriting as well as some directing with Nichols focusing more on the directing route in both theater and film and they both have their ups and downs all through the 70s and 80s in different ways.

They both kind of hit their rock bottoms in their careers. Right before this. The highs, yeah. Yeah, and that was a big problem with the birdcage is that Mike Nichols needed this to be a hit. Yeah. You really needed it for him, not financially, but for his soul. Yeah, I don't think we mention this.

yet. He made a name for himself after they split by directing The Graduate. Yeah, no, he's very good. The Graduate is an incredible film if you've never seen it before. I mean, it is really something else. And who's afraid of Virginia Wool? My God. It's so, he, he, both of them have these amazing, uh, credits to their name after they broke off. Heaven Can Wait and Ishtar. Yeah. And Anne May directed the Heartbreak Kid. That was a huge success. It's just crazy. Yeah. Uh, actually Ishtar was a flop, though. Yes, it was. And she had to hide away from Hollywood for Ishtar.

But also, oh, God, and also, after the graduate, he leaves filmmaking for eight years in the late 70s because he does have a couple of flops, as does May. He returns to Broadway and had some big hits, including producing the musical Annie. Yeah. Like, talk about an EGOT type of character, right? Well, honestly, everybody that worked on this movie, what's crazy, same with Elaine May who was in and out of working on Broadway. Yeah, and including... Everybody's like a Broadway... The costume designer won Tony's,

the makeup designers won multiple Oscars and Tony's. Like, what they did is they put together this movie with people that were like-minded that have been working both in theater and on film to bring the sensibility of Broadway to this fun movie. Yeah, to be able to transform it in the appropriate way. Yeah, it's so cool.

Rarely do you see it, and it's so cool when you see a well adapted from the stage. Also, I love watching Elaine May do stuff because as someone that I obsessed with Lily Tomlin, Elaine May was a huge inspiration to Lily Tomlin, so anyone that could inspire Lily Tomlin. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, Elaine May said,

we spent some years, speaking of her and Nichols' relationship, we spent some years not even being friends. And then we became friends again, and then we became very good friends. Yeah. And I just love that with this reunion for them. and you get that feeling. I feel like probably a lot of their relationship

is stuff in the relationship between Robin Williams' character and Nathan Lane's character. Very much so. I mean, I'm sure, right? Yes, it is that, it is the relationship that has grown to a point where you're just, they are, you know,

Robin Williams and Nathan Lane's characters are best friends at this point. That's why we really see in that palimony scene, which is something that I realize now that I'm older of what that scene means. Because when you're younger, like, I just, you know, I still think of the, you know, how Egyptian, when he's like, I'm breaking my toothbrush and she's leaving. Yeah.

It just makes me, like, I never really understood that scene, but now I do as an adult looking at of him being like, I share my life with you. Yeah. I know we can't legally be married, but also interesting choice that they didn't hammer that in the head either. I think they were trying to. be accessible to anyone that would want to watch this movie because it wasn't like, well, we can't get married, so that is a big problem.

But obviously a problem for Albert was the fact that they weren't married, that they weren't legally together and technically nothing held Robin Williams there with him. And then also here, we don't want you around on top of it. Yeah, I mean, it's part of the whole plot of the movie, but it is the thing that stands out to me the most watching it now is how poorly Nathan Lane's character is treated by everybody and it's played as comedy, which of course we're supposed to see as bad,

but we would never treat, well, we wouldn't want to treat a gay character like this in a modern story where we're pushing away and the joke of him being like hurt by Robin Williams in the office with his, his ex-lover and just being like, you know, it was hilarious. He was so upset and getting off and leaving and stuff. And, you know, he was being treated like shit, you know? And I felt really bad for him.

Which is why the casting of this movie was so important. So Mike Nichols said, one of the main things we wanted to do in casting the movie was to find actors who would inhabit the characters rather than comment on them. The most important thing was that they be truthful. And now I can't imagine anyone else as any of these characters. they are exactly the right actors for each role right down to the non-speaking parts. And like you said earlier,

how Steve Martin was originally cast, and it's got to be so difficult in his brain, he'd be like, but this is the cast that I want. Steve Martin already had an obligation to do another movie. Well, I could also go and say, I mean, you even said, I don't know if we were recording when you said this, but Nathan Lane was out to his family,

but not necessarily out to the world, even. So he wasn't even necessarily casting a gay man in the role. I mean, very few people were out. And probably, in his mind, he's like, I need to cast, I need to cast straight. It's like the opposite conversation we're having now. We're saying, I need to cast straight characters in this

to make this more, quote, unquote, unacceptable to the audience I'm trying to get this to. Because he's trying to get this into the hands of not necessarily even the gay community, but the people who are assholes to the gay community. To understand a little bit more of that, you know, like, oh my God, homosexuals. They're just like us.

Because then that's why I think that they did it. You're funnier and they dress better. Oh, yeah, no. They're definitely better than cis. But that's what you said as eight year old. That's what you said in the theater. You said, oh, mommy, homosexuals. They're just like us.

Mother. Your big lollipop. Yeah, yeah, I remember that. Always sucking on lollipops. Your sailor hat that you were wearing. No reason. Yeah, let's talk about this cast, dude. I know.

Actually, I don't think I'm going to cry this time talking about. Oh, Robbie Williams. I'm like the Need Ledger episode. with 10 things they ate about you. I'm done. I'm sick and crying about everybody. Everybody was hitting me up on Insta, by the way. I'm so sorry to all you sympathy cryers out there

for the Wren episode because I think I cried at least three or four times. But Robin Williams, I will just say, grew up in and around Chicago. I mean, we're going to, and some of we're probably going to do an episode of Robin Williams. We have to. Just don't worry.

Oh, man, that's going to be hard. Yeah, right. That will be very hard. That part two, because you know it'll be a two-part. I can't even think about it right now. But, yeah, so we'll just, say about old Robin Williams grew up and around Chicago.

Early on, he used humor as a way to get his mother's attention. He was one of those shy kids that found the theater and overcame that there. I've read it a million times that, and I was even one of those kids that found theater class as my way to express myself when I was so shut down

in middle school and just terrified to speak pretty much any other time of the day but for that 45 minutes in theater class kind of saved my life a little bit. But yeah, he He went to Juilliard on a full scholarship in 1973 alongside Christopher Reeve. And after that, he got into stand-up comedy in San Francisco and then Los Angeles, eventually becoming famous on the TV show, Mork and Mindy,

as well as his comedy specials airing on HBO. And it really was this sitcom, him playing this silly alien character that, like, broke him into being a household name. He ends up breaking a film in the early 80s as the titular character in a movie, I really want to rewatch Popeye. and hit it big. Does it hold up? And the story of the making of Popeye holds the fuck up.

If nothing else. Oh, yeah. The chaos that was that film. I would love to do that episode. We could maybe do that episode. That'd be a super bizarre fun year, probably. Fun-ass one, man. The stories from that, so apparently it was just fucking cocaine.

Oh, sure, of course. Oh, yeah. What are you going to make Popeye without cocaine? Yeah. And he hit it big with Good Morning Vietnam in 1987. Then moving on to serious roles like, Dead Poets, anxiety. I love it. And Mike Nichols said about casting Robin Williams.

He says, it goes without saying that Robin is a wonderful actor, and the story required someone with Robin's unlimited resources at the center of it. What I wanted in Armand was a kind of suppressed hysteria, someone who could appear perfectly straight and ordinary, but with a little something just under the surface that he can't completely control. Robin played that brilliantly. He's funny all the way through, but funny in a controlled way. which can be seen in this

because I think at the time, again, just coming off of Mrs. Doubtfire, people weren't looking at him as being able to play the straight character or being reserved. Yes. He does do that somber character very well. Dead poets aside, stuff like that,

but in a comedic way of being reserved. Which he's all so fucking brilliant at. He really is. So good in this role. Robin Williams said we tried to get across a couple who were just as loving as any heterosexual couple. It's a love story. And I do love that scene with them, you know, on the bench is so beautiful.

And they're both just such amazing actors. And that's what I really can't get past. Not only is it such an hilarious movie, but they're all brilliant actors that are just, man, like effortlessly acting their fucking asses off. And again, thinking of Gene Hackman is the least funny part of this movie for so much of my life cut to two years ago where I'm like, fuck, I think he might be my favorite. character or one of my favorite characters. Between that and realizing finally,

how jacked Robin Williams and Hank Azaria are, which I never really noticed, but Robin Williams, my God, he's pure muscle. You were talking about the abuse on Nathan Laid's character, but man, I feel like Hank Azaria's character gets... Poor Hankaziria. I mean, yes, obviously. There's some, I guess we'll get into how it's potentially,

maybe that's the one aspect of the film that might not hold up a little bit of a cultural. But it's interesting though, but we'll talk about the character. But still, the way he gets shit on in this movie, I was feeling, where's the Nathan Lane's character? They're so mean to him, and he's so charming, and he's so funny, and you just want to love him so much, and everybody's such a jerk to him. I mean, it's the comedy of it, I guess, but you can't help but feel from.

Nathan Lane of his relationship with Nathan Lane, Robin Williams said, it was laugh at first sight. We started riffing the moment we met. I love this. And also, and as you said before, that Steve Martin, dropped out. And Mike Nichols then wanted, if Robin Williams is going to be Armand, he wanted Nathan Lane

to play Albert. So he originally approached Nathan Lane when he was performing on Broadway in Neil Simon's laughter on the 23rd floor. So he comes backstage and Nathan Lane says, to have Mike Nichols come backstage and say, I'd like you to star

in a movie, was a dream come true? But at this time, he was committed to starring in a revival of a funny thing happened on the way to the forum. So actually declined immediately, even though he really did want to go do it. Well, that was a super successful production. It was very successful, which is why. And so Nichols kept calling Nathan Lane, so finally Nathan Lane was like, all right, you know what, if you, he's like, I'm doing this revival. You want me to do it? Call Scott Rudin,

who was directing the revival and talk to him about it. And he did. And Mike Nichols got the revival pushed back so Lane could be, so Nathan Lane could be Albert. And he could also do, a funny thing happened on the way to the forum. Nathan Lane, by the way, seemed to have a bit of a tragic upbringing with a bipolar mother, a father who died of alcoholism when Nathan was just 11 years old.

He ended up ditching college quickly and heading to New York City instead, where he struggled for years in theater and stand-up, eventually making his Broadway debut in 1982 and Noel Coward's present laughter, which led to a more to more Broadway work through the following decade before breaking into film with actually the birdcage.

While performing in the theater, in New York City, he gained a close working relationship with American composer and lyricist Stephen Sondheim. And I believe that song you sang is very beginning. We will talk about the, in fact, Sonheim wrote all of the music for the movie, and including wrote an opening birdcage theme, but Mike Nichols wanted to go with the sister sledge version of your family. Yes, to like give it like. That opening is so strong. Yeah, it's great. And all of the music that like they sing in the rehearsal, the music that Starina sings, it's all written by Sonheim for this movie because he was just a fan and he was excited for the movie to be being made.

Lane based his drag look on Barbara Bush. He said, they gave me these big pearls to wear and it just became the image that everyone used. I found the Barbara Bush inside me. My inner bush. Lane said, what I remember in seeing it as a young man was not only how funny it was, but also how subversive it was in its way. It's subversive in the fact that the gay people are the heroes and the straight people. people are the villains.

Yes. And someone actually wrote into the page seven email with a, I may use it as a conspiracy theory, but it was more just a fascinating thought about villains and cinema, especially in like Disney films. And they all have these very gay attributes. They're never like on their face gay. But if you look back at certain villains, like let's say scar, some things like that, and you're like, oh, wow, they really kind of like fimmed it up in these ways and did these

sorts of things. Interesting. That you look back and you're like, that was actually kind of a depiction. even like Ursula you can look at. Oh absolutely, absolutely. And also very like- With villainous with villainy. Yeah, and like not, not much,

like there's no maternal like warmth in them because that's evil and like that kind of shit. Yeah, for sure. Very, very, I started thinking, I was like, I had one of those moments when they wrote in, I was reading their very well-written message and I just went like just all these mental images of all the Disney villains that I've seen

and stuff like that. Oh yeah. Oh, yeah. they're all like very queer kind of vibey, you know. And so, yeah. And then realizing like, yeah, that really wasn't in a lot of movies at this time. Yeah. A good guy gay character, you know, much less like talking about caricatures of gay people,

but even just a gay person that's not a villain. Right. Right. As well as a caricature. And also, again, and not trying to just do stereotypes that Nathan Lane said about his portrayal, he said, it's not about extremes. I just tried to be more feminine and softer. When Albert is in drag, it's a performance.

And though he's melodramatic at times, as many performers are, at home he loves being a family man. And that is completely shown. I feel like it's funny that you brought up that Henry's version of my mother is a little bit like a Nathan Lane. I keep thinking about that. That is so funny. Honestly, it was a little bit of hysterics in our household

in a very similar way. But in a fun way, you know. and I do the same thing now. I drop something and go, oh my. And generally, you have to scream about everything and I find myself being out. The fucking scene with the spreading of the mustard. You pierced the toast.

So I could always get more toast. Put the pinky down. So funny. Sue, you pierced the toast. Oh my God. When he does the John Wayne walk. That's a very perfect. It's an improvised line, right?

Yes, I believe so. I just never realized on Wayne Walker. Oh, really? That was an improvised. So is the Egyptian line is an improvised line. So to get through the rest of the cast, Gene Hackman wanted to become an actor at the age of 10 and later lied about his age at 16 in order to enlist in the U.S. Marine Corps? Whoa. After the Army, he studied journalism and TV production at the University of Illinois, then moved to California to pursue acting in various TV and film productions and made a name for himself in films like Bonnie and Clyde.

the French connection leading to steady work through the 70s and 80s. But the Birdcage was actually his first real comedic role, and that is really late in his career, I feel like. And what's awesome is that the reason how Mike Nichols knew that he was very funny is because he used to do improv with him. He said, I've known Gene Hackman for a long time and knew that he started out as I did in improvisational comedy. I know how funny he can be.

His genius is that he can be 100% true and funny at the same time. Gene never fakes anything. just, oh my God, that ends with the, I don't understand. I don't understand. Even just the way he did it. So, and really, again, and the whole way. Watch that monologue, just if you don't have the time to watch the whole movie, watching him do that monologue is so, and watching Diane Weiss just like,

trying to listen to him. It makes you think about when we talk about the Ralph's coupons. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's great, the Ralph's coupon. The way he is about the controversy is so funny to me. Just the way he, just the way he, it's. It's so true now, and I feel like back then it didn't even hit as hard as it does now that we're so much more used to, like, politicians being caught up in controversy. He's a minor?

A prostitute? Just caring about how it's going to affect their career. That is like so, it's just so holds up. His last lines, your money's on the set. The end table, chocolate. Jesus Christ. It's just so ridiculous. It's so, the coalition of moral order that he works for.

It's so funny. Diane Weiss studied theater at the University of Maryland but left early to tour with the Shakespeare troop and made her Broadway debut in 1971 again coming out of the theater and continued to get steady theater work all through the 70s and 80s while also breaking in a film with stuff like her role as the reference wife in the film Footloose. She also won an Academy Award for a role in what maybe is still one of my favorite films even though now it's very different

but Hannah and her sisters. In 1987 she's so good in that movie. Dan Futterman, who plays The Sun actually broke into film as a thug who menaces Robin Williams in the film The Fisher King in 1991. Fun fact, that fucking guy, the son of the family, he wrote the film Capote.

Which is one of my favorite movies. I don't know that. Yeah. I was like blown away. I'm like, that guy wrote Capote. Yeah, and his very good friend directed it. And that movie is like amazing. I also didn't realize he was in The Fisher King,

which is another movie, another Robin Williams movie that if you guys ever want to do, I love the Fisher King. Absolutely. I actually gotta need to watch it. And then there's a time. This is the time to watch it.

It's great. I would love to watch that movie. I've always meant to. Callista Flockhart was just about to hit it big as the star of the show. Ali McBeal, you know, the Dancing Baby show. Dancing Baby! But had up until this point been struggling to get work

in Manhattan acting in various TV and film roles before getting the Birdcage, though her first substantial role was in the film, Quiz Show in 1994. Which is also where my... Mike Nichols first saw Hank Azaria. Yeah, yeah. I bet he cast both of them

because of that movie actually. Because, yeah, he caught Hank Azaria off of quiz show as well. Her character in the script, by the way, is described as not even 18, though she was 31. I know, I saw, I mean, she crushed it, but I was like, watching it. I was like, close the flock hard I know was not a teeny

jury during the time. Hank Azaria grew up in New York City and his family were Grecian Jews who were later expelled from Spain and moved to the U.S. therefore his family's spoken language at home was Ladino, also known as Judeo-Spanish, which he described as, quote, a strange, antiquated Spanish dialect written in Hebrew characters. That's very difficult.

Yeah. It's very difficult to learn. As a child, he would memorize mimic films, shows, and stand-up routines, which is why he got so good at doing different dialects, doing different characters. After not doing so hot as a theater actor in NYC, he moved to Los Angeles to break into television, which led to several small parts before getting like a billion voice role. on the show The Simpsons starting in 1989 with the character Mo Sislack.

He had only done one voiceover gig before this and that got him more TV and film work. He was also though, as you said, in Quiz Show. Wait, The Simpsons was his first real voiceover? I mean, but yeah, cartoon? Wow. That's nuts.

No, talk about, like, Hank Azaria is a huge inspiration to me. God, what an amazing performer. And him and this, it is, I understand, why times have changed and that people find his characterization in the movie offensive. I completely understand. But he's just so funny. He's so endearing, though, and so funny. Especially with the physical stuff, with the walking in the shoes and the way.

With that fall, it's so funny. I mean, Angassarre is a genius. When they're singing, I could dance again and I could have dance all night. Absolutely. I don't think most people would argue that he's a genius because he is. And I also will say to anyone, who does feel like his character's problematic in this, he did actually base that dialect.

He kind of realized after the fact, but he realized he was actually doing the voice of his grandmother, that that is that dialect that he does specifically his grandmother. The Judeo-Spanish language, like that's so fascinating. Yeah. But what is more interesting, I think, is that originally the Agadol Spodocus character was played by a black man in both of the stage production

and the original movie. and originally David Allen Greer was cast as the character. And as they were doing, so Hank Azaria was the dresser of Starina. So he was still in that role. So essentially, Agadar Spartacus was like two different characters. And as they were doing it, Hank Azaria said, and though they thought David Allen Greer was brilliant, they thought that in an American context,

the idea of a black houseman would be somewhat distasteful and have very racist overtones, Assyria said. So since it's set in Miami, they decided to make it a Latin character. And I was already playing the other character. So I think it was Robin Williams idea. Why not just combine the two roles and just let Azaria do it? And that's essentially what happened. And that does suck for David Allen Greer.

But I do understand, I mean, that that was rough. And now 25 years later, we also recognize, which is good, that playing a Latin character when you are not of Latin descent is also upsetting and offensive and treating anyone like that is not good. I mean, he is referred to as a savage at one point, but that is also part of the joke of that they are such conservative, ridiculous people that again, like you said,

even with the like having, you know, dying in the bed of an underage sex worker, all he could think about was himself, not about anything else. I also think that is the perspective of the characters. Underage and black. Jesus Christ. So funny. But I mean, but they might have even softened Gene Hackman's character in the film if they made it today.

And I think that would have done a disservice. I think that how brutal he is and how it's so funny. I mean, I don't know. The people who are that guy in our generation have ramped up because they're almost fighting against the liberalism that's coming up. They're like monster people. Nathan Lane's portrayal and all that scene work they do when she's trying to connect with him as conservative. I say kill the mother.

I say kill the mother. You're already going to kill the features. I don't go down with the ship. I almost feel like, yeah. I feel like these conservatives are more welcoming than some would be now. So I do think that it shows the growth by the end when he's on, I don't want to be the only.

girl not dancing when Gene Hackman is all dressed up, which makes it so funny. So funny. And last, to round out the cast to quote Christine Baranski, of course. She also went to Juilliard, made her off-Broadway debut in 1980, and her Broadway debut later that same year and got a Tony in 1984 for her role in Tom Stoppers. The Real Thing. She continued to be a hit on Broadway and transferred that to TV with her role as the hard-drinking friend, Marianne, and the sitcom Sybil.

That's, I think, where we all first met her. and her first film role was actually the birdcage. She's so damn. Yes, and she'd worked with Mike Nichols on Broadway as well, and she immediately knew. She said, in a film peopled with eccentric and wildly funny people, Catherine is quite centered and calm. She says, I think it's true of Elaine's script

that you come away with a sense that there's love and dignity to all these characters, however eccentric they are. Love levels things. Unconditional love can normalize any situation. So getting into the improvisation and I'll just say Mike Nichols, who like to get raw moments on the camera,

such as that final shot and the graduate, so good on the bus. Also understood his cast would run away from a scene with too much improv. He was definitely working with, you know, some loose cannons improvisationally. So he tried to keep improv to rehearsals and get those moments into the actual shooting script

as much as humanly possible. Nichols said, the actors would do the written script until I was satisfied and then we would do one take in which they could improvise, given this cast there were obviously some improvs that were insanely funny but didn't fit the story but there were but there are moments all through the picture that are improvised and were perfect

and right yes like we have to at least get one good take on the book yes and then you guys can go a little while so i think it was a little bit of improv before improv after um and that's what i like robin william said about it he says it does two things it frees you up and it adds a certain wild energy to the mix then even the scripted lines are gassed up because it's no holds barred. The rules are off. Sometimes it's great. Sometimes it misses.

But it spices it up and adds fire to the situation, which I like that, like, even in watching, you know, like apparently Nathan Lane, when the Schnecken beckons, that line was improvised, how Egyptian line was improvised, when he falls in the kitchen, when Robin Williams is trying to get the shrimp

for the sweet and sour peasant soup. His fall was not scripted either, but they, time in watching this, that I started watching the other people in every scene to see how often they were desperately trying to not laugh. And it was a lot. You could see of like, even Diane Weiss would just like look off with stoicism of desperately trying to not laugh. And that even Mike Nichols had a huge problem being on set. There, they were times, he said, Mike would have to leave the set with his monitor and a handkerchief in his mouth so he wouldn't ruin the take with his

laughter, Diane Weiss tells. We were all guilty of breaking up during takes. There were nights we would laugh from the time we arrived in the morning until we wrapped at night. I love it. What an amazing experience. Yeah, Robin Williams' fall in the kitchen was not planned. By the way, you can see Hank his area holding back a laugh when it happens. I love it. The opening shot was actually three shots stitched together, beginning with a helicopter cam, then a crane attached to a steady cam operator who was gradually lowered to the ground, then walked across the street, and the last shot was filmed. on a studio soundstage. And also what they say about that,

that why was that all in one, that tracking shot so amazing? It was because the movie cinematographer was Emmanuel Chivo Lubesky, the three-peat Oscar winner behind Gravity, Birdman, and the Revenant. Wow. He got, dude, he got...

I mean, all those are incredibly well shot. So Bo Welsh, the production designer, he had worked on the Tim Burton films, Beatlejuice, Edward Cisorhands, and Batman Returns. Oh, okay. All of these, so there's so many. people that have worked together that have worked in these insane movies.

So the original movie was set in the French Riviera. They moved it to Miami. And Bo Welsh says, South Beach is perfect for this movie because it's the closest equivalent in the United States to the French Riviera. It has perhaps the largest collection of 1930s art deco buildings in the world. The walk in front of where our birdcage nightclub was located is a nonstop parade of scantily clad, beautiful people, sprinkled with tourists from all over. so it's a great smorgas board of characters.

And you could imagine that this club could flourish there. They also went on to work with Anne Roth, the costume designer who has won multiple Tonys and Oscars for her costume designing and makeup artist Roy Helland, who is an Academy Award-winning artist who has, crazy enough, worked with Meryl Streep on every movie she's made since 1982. He is like, and then also works on whatever other movies that she were. on. So Mike Nichols brought in the makeup artist as well and talking about how Anne Roth is a genius.

She instinctively knows what everybody should wear, even when it's just a t-shirt and shorts. But there's something about the way she and Roy conceived Nathan's character when he's in drag, especially when he's in drag for the family as Mrs. Coleman that made her a whole person with a specific identity. The makeup artist, Helen, says, Mike wanted the makeup in this movie to be real. He wanted a complete illusion so that the audience will suspend. their disbelief. It can be funny, but it shouldn't be funny just looking at it, which is a difficult, when you're trying to make a great movie, it's difficult, I imagine, to toe the line. When you don't want, you want these characters to be grounded so they need to be, they need to

look grounded. And I read this whole review of talking about Bo Welsh's production design of their Armand and Albert's home, that it was, not only was South Beach, but it was well lived in. It was still a family home, even though it was like ridiculous. art everywhere, as opposed to the starkness of what it becomes when they're trying to make it conservative, which is also, at the same time, which I appreciated, Bowels, was like, we were making fun of conservative people more than anything. Absolutely. And that's what we wanted to get across of like this staunch, like with the crucifix on the wall.

Oh, my God, that's so funny. But he's like, oh my God, oh my God, I'm in hell and there's a crucifix here. Oh, my God. Also, give me their balcony with the hot tub with a slide. Oh my God. Oh, I love their decor. And also, Robin Williams fits in this movie. Oh, you look so good.

So good. And fashion holds up, I feel like, especially for his looks. And I was talking about this before we started recording that Nathan Lane was asked if he was intimidated having to act against comedic force of nature Robin Williams. And he said, nope, I did well because of him because he was a saint. He was a kind, generous, sensitive soul. he was a real actor and he wanted the challenge of playing that role and he graciously shared the scene. And certainly he was a movie star who could have said, I don't want to do it with this guy.

Get me Billy Crystal. And multiple times I've read of how Robin Williams didn't just take the scene for himself. He gave it up to other people, which in comedy is very important. And you look at other people that are huge comedic geniuses that don't do that because they want this, spotlight for themselves. And it takes a lot to be able to make the scene with other people. And that's what this movie is that as much as like, you know, you think about like, oh, Nathan Lane's amazing. Oh, Gene Hackman's amazing. Oh, Robin Lane is amazing. This is a cohesive movie. Everyone has times to shine. Right. There's nobody that's trying to just make the, this is the, the Robin William

show. No, because that was Missed Outfire. You know, that is like where it should have been. It felt like such an ensemble piece. And I think it was so smart of him. to not just be like, oh, I just did this kind of drag-ish movie, so I probably shouldn't do this back-to-back, but also to, you know, if he probably was that Nathan Lane character, would have been harder for him to not chew the scene. I know. I'm really glad he didn't end up in that part.

Honestly, Steve Martin probably would have killed it in his role. Sure. Sure. But I don't, yeah, I don't like the idea. I think he was, yeah, I don't like him in the Nathan Lane role. No. I just don't, I think the two of them together as a couple would have made it a little too much of a caricature.

Yeah, totally, totally. I love my Steve Byr and give me the jerk any day. The film was originally titled Birds of a Feather. I have a couple little factoid here. I loved this. The scene in which Azaria's character tries to calm down Albert before a show was based on Judy Garland's dresser, according to Nichols.

Judy would panic before every performance and her dresser would panic with her and he would panic more than her so that she'd have to be the one to tell him to calm down and that was the ritual they had. Which is so smart. So smart. She was forced to go into this motherly kind of taking care, nurturing role.

And then she lost all sense of, I mean, what a brilliant, brilliant reverse psychology move. I think that that's what happens in my relationship. Do you have any more facts before we get into the release of the film and our final, I have a good final quote. But I want to make sure you get it all on the table. No, I know I have more about the reviews and the release and the sequel. Oh, great. so let's talk about the release. The film opened on March 8, 1996,

in a country in which gay marriage had not yet been legalized, mind you. It was number one in the box office for three weeks and eventually grossed over $180 million worldwide. Elaine said, when it came out, the gay press was very hard on it. They felt it promoted gay stereotypes,

but it was also a shining light for a community that had just been rocked by the AIDS epidemic, as stated by Dr. Matthew Jones, University Professor of Cinema Audiences and reception who said it helped an audience traumatized by a decade of living day to day with the threat of disease and death to laugh again. Well, and that's what, and also, I feel like Nathan Lane was focusing on the more negative aspects because the gay and lesbian alliance against defamation

at the time did come on record and said, we've seen so many films with very one-dimensional stereotypical characters. Their purpose has been to play the straight man to rounds of jokes. In the birdcage, they go beyond the stereotypes to see the characters, depth and humanity. So I think that Nathan Lane was very nervous about how it was going to be. Especially as he was. Yes. It was him and Hank Azari probably that would be the two most biggest targets for that

kind of criticism. But I just think his humanity shines through anything that could be conceived as a caricature. I just think that he brings such a heart. For sure. And I think that there are gay straight and in between people like that, myself included, who are ridiculous. who are just animated as all hell.

And I think that they, yeah, I love how well the movie holds up. I guess is all I have to say. Like, I'm just so thrilled because it's so rewatchable. It's so funny. Yeah. Do you want to talk a little about the sequel? I don't really have anything.

Oh, yeah, sure. Well, also, though, Mike Nichols was, because before this, he was having difficulty getting projects because he had had multiple flops. That's why you went into such a deep depression and kind of like stepped away from working for a while. And he said, after he showed the final cut of the bird cage to his editing team in Martha's Vineyard, they all had a celebratory meal. But he said, I was very emotional and very angry.

I couldn't speak all through lunch. The film was so good, so strong. I realized I'd had no inkling of my anger at the people who had written me off. My reaction instantaneously was, fuck you, bastards. You thought I couldn't do this anymore? Well, look at this. I love it. And you love that.

It was his like, all right, you know what, no, I'm back. And so many people said that like, even Lorne Michaels, who, you know, notoriously doesn't speak highly about almost anyone except for himself. He said, I went to a preview of the bird cage with Mike Nichols, and it destroyed, as we say in comedy.

As if no one fucking knows what you'd be. It destroyed me, Lorne Michaels. He said he was so happy because there was a time. It happens to all of us. You go in for a meeting at the studio, and the implication is, why are you here? We grew up on your stuff. You're already in the Hall of Fame.

You're being treated politely. but you're no longer in the game. But after the first preview, he knew, oh, it's going to work. And then suddenly the entire attitude at the studio changed. You can be an icon and treated badly. Steve Martin had this great joke about how after you have a flop, you call your favorite restaurant and they go,

absolutely, Mr. Martin. How's 545? Which is, everybody. All right, yes, I do want to quickly speak about the sequel that actually went fairly far because of a British podcast. called Beyond the Box set that claims that it pitches the sequels that nobody asked for. And they wondered, yeah, how Nathan Lane's flamboyant Albert would cope with the loss of his remarkably patient life partner.

Not to mention the tantalizing, terrifying notion of how Agador Spartacus' personal style might have evolved as he entered his mid-50s. Birdcage 2, Starina Rides Again, includes pitches for different versions and Nathan Lane heard about it. So apparently the pitch was fleshed out to be, when they came up with this, Albert was traveling to Guatemala with Agadour. Nathan Lane said, it's a really smart, funny pitch. So what the heck? He sent it to his manager. He sent it to MGM. MGM optioned it, but it was Hank Azaria who stopped it cold.

And when Hank Azaria told Nathan Lane when they got into conversation about it, he said, I loved playing it. I love the idea. But he said, I have one word for you, Apu. And he was nervous about doing the character again, understand. But also, can you imagine how they would do it if, like, Robin Williams is dead, having to do this movie?

Like, I don't think I could even just thinking about it. It makes me sad. So, so sad. So maybe it's for the best. It is, but, like, that would have been a great movie. You know, and I do at least, smart. I do at least, like, that Hengazaria is acknowledging issues with all that stuff.

And, you know. And he came out and he said, I think whenever you have straight or gay characters portraying gays in a humor, way, you're making fun of what you are also treating lovingly at the same time. That definitely lends itself to a crossing of the line. I certainly can understand gay or Latin people having a problem with what I did, but I felt it was authentic in its own way. I definitely did my best to make him a three-dimensional person, someone who wasn't just funny, but was also touching and sweet

in his own way. I agree. And that's why I think that for me, you know, and I, you know, speaking from a place of privilege and this, that, and the other, for me, it's, it doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't great. I just rewatched it. Like, it doesn't great on me. Yeah, we of course are coming from it. I love the character. Right. I actually love that guy. And I'm proud of myself because I did none of his quotes,

even though I quote them all the time with a bad accent. And I think that because it was, we can look at it from this time and know that we shouldn't do that now. And I say we as a human population.

There's a great Latin character comic that You should just gotten the pest. Come on, you know, like Muzamo. He'd be great. Well, you know, he was too busy doing too long food, thanks for everything, Julie Numer. Yeah, that's true, yeah, yeah. The only like Mizamo you could go up with was the pest.

And Luigi. And Luigi. All right, I have a really nice. He's amazing and too long food thanks for everything Julie Numer. I have a great little quote here to close it out. Do you have anything else, Jackie, Natalie? No, and I'm just sad because Robin Williams is dead. Oh, right.

At least I don't have a very sad quote about Robert Williams' death like we did and the 10 Things I Hate About You episodes, so we'll leave that for, we'll leave the cry, the tears for another time. Nathan Lane had this to say, homophobia is still alive and well, but there's something about that film that touches people because it's ultimately about family,

what you do for your family, why you love your family, even though they drive you crazy, then ultimately, not to sound corny, it's about love. It's about love in both families and coming to accept one another in their differences. Writer Manuel Betancourt said, The Birdcage encourages us all to be more like Albert.

to see in his gay femininity a kind of strength that we all too often mock in disparage, sometimes even within ourselves. And I agree. I love that now about, like I love any of my feminine qualities, right? And I feel like I ran from them for years. Well, it was definitely societally pushed, especially guys, but girls too in this period. For sure, for sure.

So now I sing my T-Swift songs on my piano, and I love it. and I'll keep doing it for the rest of my life. All right, thanks so much everybody for joining us. This is our episode on The Birdcage. If you want to follow us further, Patreon.com forward slash page 7 podcast is where you could support us monetarily more so. Weekly episodes, there's actually so much content.

It's such a steal for $5 a month, so definitely check it out if you want to. You check me out on twitch.tv. 4.slash Holdenators Ho. I stream Monday, Tuesday, Fridays, and Fridays I stream with Jackie. And I think that's all I have to say about that. Natalie, take it away.

If you want to get real sad, I do a show called Someplace Underneath. Me never have fun on it, but it is about missing women. So, be forewarned, but it's fun. It's fascinating. How about that? Yeah. Some place underneath on. And important, actually.

Thank you. A lot of ways to the informationally. Thank you. And you can listen to that on any streaming podcast platform. and follow me at the United Gene. There you go. And my name is Jackie Zabrowski and whenever I think about the dolphins

I also feel betrayed, bewildered. Oh, is that not right? I don't know. I love that scene so much I pierce the toast. My name's Jackie, we're just entering. I just love the bird cage. You should go watch the bird cage.

I say kill the mothers. All right. Have it going, everybody. Bye. Bye. I say kill the mothers. This show is made possible by listeners like you.

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