Page 7 - Pop History: The Craft

Episode Date: October 27, 2020

Now is the time. This is the hour. Ours is the magic. Ours is the power.Want even more Page 7? Support us on Patreon! Patreon.com/Page7PodcastKevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0 Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes of Page 7 ad-free.Start a free trial now on Apple Podcasts or by visiting siriusxm.com/podcastsplus. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Is it better that you should rush upon this blade, then enter the circle with fear in your heart? How do you enter Holden? With perfect love and perfect trust. Kiss. Is it better that you should rush upon this blade than enter the circle with fear in your heart? How do you enter Natalie Jean? With perfect love and perfect trust. Kiss.

What are you doing? That's what happens inside of the circle. The circle is for magic only. I choose to make out with the circle. Oh, Jackie, I can't believe. I thought you were going to start with how soon is now. No. Like a very unnecessary cover of how soon is now.

It is, you know what? I do love the soundtrack, but I'm going to go ahead and say, it's not that good. But I love it. It's not the greatest time for music during this movie. What? What? Early 90s, guys, it's the craft.

Yes, we're talking about the craft. Because Holden the only way you know how to treat women is by treating them like haws. Well, you're the whore. And that's got to stop. The craft is everything. The craft is the reason for the season. And I'm so excited to do this episode.

We've been wanting to do this episode for so long. The craft defined my spooky childhood, a thousand percent. I wanted to be Faruja Balch. I wanted to have sex with Faruja Balch. She was definitely an awakening for me in many different ways in this movie. Honestly, all of them were. Skeet Ulrich is horrible in this movie.

No, I hate him. He really, you know what? They learned a lot by the time that he got to scream. I will say that. I'm also very sad how mean Brecken Myers is in this movie. Such an asshole. Yeah. It is too bad.

But he's very good at it. It gave me major, like, clueless vibes. Like, it's like the, the anti-clueless, which is so funny because Alicia Silverstone was supposed to be the star of this, but she couldn't because she was making clueless. Yeah, man, it really just like, this time period just exploded out some very huge teen stars. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Massive. And what's so great?

All right, well, I just want to ask you guys, because this definitely passed me by, because it was a girl movie for girls. And I was stupid back when I was young. But this movie now upon watching it as a grown-ass man alone in his living room really was surprised at how frightening it was at times. It is a good movie. It's a great movie. It's a great movie.

It was so much fun. And it really was while maintaining, even though I think they made it R for dumbass reasons, which we'll get into later, because I really should have been PG-13. There's no reason that it was R. That's so ridiculous. It was R? Yes. Guys, it's dangerous when women empower themselves with witchcraft.

It is straight up because there was witchcraft in it. Wait, I know that. You know why I know that? I just remembered because I was going to tell this story, but I didn't put that together. I saw this movie in the theater, but I was a kid, but I was too young to see it. So my cool older cousin Beth took me and she bought tickets for us and we saw it. That's awesome. And I saw it illegally.

Whoa. Did you see in the theater, Jack? you probably rented it, right? Yeah, I was too young to see it in the theater. So what was you guys' experience? Because I think that's way more important than mine, though. I do have a fun little story to tell after you guys do the gush. Well, I remember watching this movie with my mom because my mom does a lot.

She has studies lots of different religions. She's very into the idea of feminine power and how we get our power from Mother Earth. And that is something that I did grow up in. And I remember watching this movie with my mom, and she thought it was very important for me to watch it. That's awesome. Because my mom is really big into white lighting things. She's into good magic,

but she also is a big proponent of, you know, that everything comes in threes and that everything you do needs to be positive or else it will come back to you threefold. That is something we were raised with that ideology about. And that's why my mom, also wanted, was so excited to watch this movie with me. And so surprised that now after doing this research, it makes so much sense. I knew that there was an advisor of sorts, but I didn't realize the amount that the Wiccan

advisor had to do with the making of this movie. It's really cool. Because of course there's some fluff. Of course Menon is made up. There's, there are definite parts of it that are not real. Even Menon being fake is because she didn't want. want people going out and invoking real entities. So that's even based in a real fear and a real concern.

Well, a real respect of her practice. Yes. Well, also in the same way, though, which we will get into a little bit later on, that I truly believe in the theory that if you believe in something and that if you are together thinking in a way that you can make something happen, I truly believe this. think that even though that like since weird things kept happening on the set, they were doing something. I do truly believe that you, like the power of people coming together and thinking about

the same thing can make shit happen regardless of whether Menon is real, regardless of whether exactly what they're saying is real, because it's the intention that's there. Yeah. And that's what's even cooler about this movie that all this weird shit was happening while it was being filmed. And that's generally, that is a general. rule within any sort of occultism, which is the law of attraction. That's something that a lot of different ideas use.

And also, it's chaos magic in a sense because chaos magic involves creating deities and destroying them over and over again. So it is in a lot of ways doing that. Yeah, they were inadvertently doing that because they needed a fake deity to that they kind of sprung to life. It seems based on a couple of fun little tales we'll get into in this episode. Well, deities are mostly created like basically created by man in general. So it's a real, they made a deity.

And you know, it could be like in a hundred years, people consider that an actual deity because it was in this movie. Totally. Just like I consider hairy fish fingers to be a true deity that haunts my life. Oh, I love it. He comes into my bed. He pets me with his fish fingers. Fish fingers.

with his scales, I'll have bad luck for the rest of the year. So wait, does he have fingers that are fish, or do his fingers smell like fish? Both. Oh, wow. I mean, they would. If they are fish, they probably would smell like fish. They reek of it. Natalie, how was it for you seeing that movie in the theater too young?

And what influence did the craft have on you? I was already an odd kid. I was in middle school at this time, so it made me afraid of going to high school, which was appropriate because my high school experience was not good. It's a real fear. The dichotomy that's shown in that movie is actually really similar to where I grew up, except we were poorer, but it was like a poor, like a working class white school district where the kids were like exceptionally vicious and really mean-spirited in that way.

and you were sort of an other or one that blended in. And I was unintentionally an other until I made myself into sort of like a punk kid and like leaned into that. So I think this was very comforting. So the people could properly categorize you, which is a very important thing in high school that everyone needs to be able to do. Oh, that's the hot girl table, the popular girl table. You have to go into the click. That's the grunge table. They're all wearing the jinkos over there.

You know what I mean? I was definitely, I was called. a freak a lot in high school or a D word referring to a gay woman Oh, I thought you meant

Dumbarella because yeah I am constantly called a Dumborella Yeah Dumborella? Dumborella is here Jackie, you can't say that anymore I'm sorry, I'm sorry

I'm not a Dumborella and neither you, Natalie. Yeah, this film does nail and I love when movies do really goes for the jugular when it comes to the cruelty of children in high school. Because when it's softballed in other movies, I'm like, that's not, they're like really mean. Yeah, no, it's, it was real to my experience in high school, certainly. But yeah, just growing up as a sort of an outcast kid, I found it exciting that it could be something that was empowering in a lot of ways, even though obviously those women

or all just like Hollywood level beautiful and aren't really outcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I think even as a kid, I understood on some level that it was true to some part of reality. Like it didn't feel like a contrived form of witches. You know, it felt like there was something very grounded in it

that I connected to, even as a young kid. And also it was just like hot, cool girls and cool outfits and then like, you know, a bunch of scary scenes. Yeah, dude. Oh my God, the craft now has clothes at Hot Topic. Yes, I purchased some of them. I mean, that's what I always wanted to dress like. I always wanted to look like them down to the even like how, you know,

they have to all wear the regular clothes, like their school clothes, but they never look exactly the same. They put their own flare on each thing and I just like, I want to look just like that. I kind of always, I've never stopped dressing like them well into adults. And I probably will be 70 years old still dressing like them because that's just the way I roll. So for me, it definitely, this movie kind of passed me by. But I will say I was raised Unitarian and so had a slight relationship with the Wicco religion. And so in high school, I think it was one of the high school years. It wasn't called Sunday school.

It was called religious education. And one particular year, we had a few different teachers at once in one room. We had like a Christian teacher, a Hindu teacher. and we had a Wiccan lady. Man, that's cool as hell, though. That's great. I wish all kids got that experience. I loved my religious upbringing,

and I would highly encourage people to actually check out, at least raising your kids in the Unitarian Church, because they will at least get, you'll make them agnostic, but they will get a really even education on spirituality. Well, you learn so much about all, that's because we were, you know, at the same time, going to Unitarian classes,

where it's like you learn how to meditate, you learn about all the different religions. You, like, it opens you up to many different. Right. Your mom did that too, Jackie, right? Yeah. Like you took you to, you guys eventually, you had started out Catholic. Yes.

But then your mom decided she wanted to experience different religions and kind of took you guys into that, which is so awesome. Yeah. At the very least, you can go to your, like, whatever the mainstay one is that you want to have, but still go to Unitarian Church because everyone, you know, goes in one space and you learn about all of it. And so this particular year was like a. They went around the room. The teachers introduced themselves and the first was Christian and talked about a little bit of that. The Hindu guy talked about Hinduism. And then we get to the Wiccan lady and she's just like, all I have to say is do not mess with black magic. Like the whole room just like a stop short. It was like far more entertaining than the other two. And she was like, believe me. I was living in a house with other Wiccan ladies and we accidentally invited one in to stay with us that we didn't realize at the time was delving into black women.

magic. She released a poltergeist into our home. I mean, I'm doing dishes. Plates are flying across my head. We had to do this whole thing to expel the spirit and get rid of this lady. Please, I'm begging you, check out the wicked religion, but do not mess with black magic. And I will always remember that. I don't remember a lot from R.E., as we called it, religious education, but that has always stuck with me. And I thought a lot about her when we did this episode, or when I was researching for this episode. And even like we did retreats, she would do the whole sage ceremony with us and show us a bunch of different rituals and things, which was super cool. And definitely it was like this eye-opening thing of, yeah, sure, you can worship

what you see is more traditional with, you know, Christianity and things as you're growing up. And then there's also some stuff that you could really check out that, you know, I mean, that's not just Hocus, post. hocus bullshit that's like really serious, Ed. And I love how this movie delves into that. And it takes it seriously. Mess with black magic. And it has this much relevancy as a traditional American religion like Christianity does.

They both have the same level of occultism and fantasy world and metaphor and all that shit. So I think it's important to experience the full scope of it. And the black magic thing is like that's not. I hate using the term black magic, but like using spiritualism in a bad way is not only for wikens. It can be in any religion. So, you know, that's a good rule of thumb in general. You don't want to invoke a poltergeist. Sure.

And at the end, even if you don't believe in it, and honestly, I do think a lot of that's pretty legit. But even if you don't believe in it, it's like, isn't that still just a good philosophy to have? Like, isn't that just a good way to look at the world? But if you fuck someone over, you're going to get it right back. Yeah. So be positive.

Put out good energy. I truly believe that. Yeah. If you carry yourself with good energy and you only put out good energy, of course, you'll get some back, unfortunately, because that's just the way of the world. But if you try, try to maintain positive energy, it really does help you focus your life. But I was very surprised that the craft was not written by women. I know.

I was very surprised because I thought that even though, of course, it is, these are, they are tropes of girls in high school. the way that they are written. But with the way that these girls were written, usually you can spot it from a million miles away of like, oh, that is obviously a full-grown man that knows nothing about teenage girls. It's like, I'm a teenage girl, and I talk like this. I thought that I really enjoyed the way that this,

the respect that the characters are given, as well as the entire, you know, all of the magic and everything that's involved in this movie. That was brought to this movie because it was written by two men that wanted to do it properly, which is why they brought in a Wiccan advisor. And they also have a bunch of daughters between them, which I think is very cool, that they wanted to make a movie for their daughters to look at and be proud of and identify with at some point.

Sure. And they made a great movie and you could say, oh, well, it would have been better if women would have been behind it. But at the time, it was even more... They did have a female Wicked Advisor, though. Yeah. And at the time, there was even fewer women screenwriters and directors

than there are now. So it was a rarity in itself. So it was good to just see that representation no matter who put it. Also, though, you got old Pat. The Wiccan advisor sneaking a lot of stuff. Old Pat. Old Pat. Oh, Pat. It's coming in here.

But I guess it all starts with, you know, we're talking about, Andrew Fleming, who's the director? Yeah, let's, here's a quick synopsis before we jump right into the making of this movie. The Craft is a 1996 American Supernatural Horror Film directed by Andrew Fleming and distributed by Columbia Pictures. Fleming wrote it along with Peter Philalardi. It stars Robin Tunney, Farooza Balk, Neff Campbell, and Rachel True,

and it follows a group of four outcast teenage girls at a Los Angeles parochial high school who pursue witchcraft for their own gain, but of course must deal with some dark consequences along the way. How did I do? That was great. I think that I will say it definitely influenced my, um, uping my goth girl lifestyle and moving here. Moving to Los Angeles, it definitely had to do with the graft a hundred percent. Yes.

Yes, girl. Now I'm, I'm really living the dream that I always wanted to be living. And Fleming felt a very similar way about Los Angeles. He said, I grew up in Los Angeles and always found it such a peculiar place. You have this colossal. The L.A., most people think of, but there's this whole other side of it, eerie, mysterious, almost Gothic. That's what I wanted the craft to be like.

Well, and that's really what it is. Los Angeles is a city of ghosts. It's a sprawling city that has so much history behind it, and it's a lot of bad history behind it. Yes. We joke around about this a lot. It's a beautiful city, but it is haunted. Oh, yeah. You can feel this city in the same way where it's a very different feel.

of New York and why I'll always love New York, but the feeling of New York is very, is not as haunted as LA is. I feel like it's something to do with it being so sprawled out. And you feeling so out in the open, but then it's just, just remembering a bunch of horrible shit has happened here. Yeah, and I think it's also the,

the facade, the glamour of, yes, the brightness on the outside of it. That's what I always find interesting because while New York has tons of darkness, it's not pretending it's not a fucking dark place. Yeah, it's outwardly dark. Yeah, LA is trying to put this cover on top of it. And I think that that's more interesting personally.

And Jackie, I know whenever you first moved here, I could tell you were really inspired by the craft because you just got really moody and then you would like kind of just like avoid eye contact. You were always saying like, everything I touched turns to sit That's what I kept doing And my Catholic schoolgirl skirts Were getting shorter and shorter and shorter

Henry's hair started falling out I mean it was a whole situation Yeah oh my god did I do that That's why Jackie Oh no he's been so good to me Indy Flimbing first studied filmmaking In New York University before moving back to L.A. to become a filmmaker and a screenwriter and Fleming up to that point

had directed two films, bad dreams and threesome Threesome is a semi-autobiographical erotic comedy About three roommates in college Deciding to have a threesome Including one of those is Lara Flynn Boyle By the way, meow That messes with their friendship, yeah absolutely Intriged

And Bad Dreams, I know right And Bad Dreams is a slasher film About a woman who awakens from a 13-year-long coma And finds herself being stalked by a ghost Of a court leader Who led a mass suicide by fire That she survived as a child What? Now I want to see that.

Yeah, I'm very interested. That might be kind of cool. Yeah, Bad Dreams is the name of that one for anybody curious. Fleming said, at first I was just brought in to work on the script. I had recently finished a horror movie called Bad Dreams, and I didn't want to make the same thing again. But then I realized the craft was essentially a character piece, the story of four teenage girls not fitting in at school as much as one about spells and witchcraft.

I didn't want the witches to have pointed hats or fly around on broomsticks. I wanted them to look like they were in the cure. I love, and that is exactly. what they did. Even Fleming talked about how he wanted to make these girls deeper and have backstories that weren't just, oh, she just

moved here, isn't that crazy? Fleming said, I brought to it the idea that the main character had committed suicide. The idea that the Rochelle character was black and that she had been experiencing racism, that was my idea. The idea that Bonnie had been burned, that was my idea. There was a girl in my dorm

room who had tried to kill herself, and I found her with her wrist cut. There was a in my dorm room with Burns like that. And I was just so intrigued by her. And there was so much weird, bigotry in high school. He went to college with, sorry, he went to college with the girls

from the craft, essentially. He based them on girls that he had met. Wow. And he wanted to personalize the idea of bigotry in high school. He said, I'd like the idea that it was witchcraft, and then it felt real, that witches had never been portrayed

without the black point he had. hats and green skin. And he wanted to represent women. He said, I don't want to go into details, but I had met this woman. She said, I'm a pagan. I'm going to cast a spell on you, and it's going to fuck you up. And I was really freaked out. Cool.

I don't know what college he went to, but apparently he was having a time. That's awesome. What do you think it's like as the actress who plays Sarah, who was in Empire Records previous to this. And you're going to talk about this, I'm sure, but both of her characters tried to commit suicide by slitting the wrist back to back. Do you think she was like being typecast as somebody who looked like they wanted to commit suicide? That would make me think a lot about what I'm projecting in audition rooms, I guess. I would definitely say that. That is got to be a bit of a head fuck. Also, she had to wear a wig, right? Because she shaved her head for Empire Records.

And she actually, yeah, and she'd almost turned down the cast because she'd almost turned down the role because she thought Sarah was so boring. But they had to be, because she had to be convinced to take it after Empire Records. But I imagine that probably had something to do with it. Maybe they wanted to beef up just like the substance of her character. And maybe they didn't, maybe he wasn't even thinking about that. But yes, she was bald when she came in to be cast for it. And it's a wig the entire time.

She's fantastic in Empire Records. Yes, absolutely. another episode for the future, by the way. I've been thinking about that movie in particular for pop history. But either way, the initial concept, going back to that, it was originally a collaboration between producer Douglas Wick and screenwriter Peter Fildari. Fadari.

Douglas Wick came from a showbiz family, and his first gig was as a coffee boy for filmmaker Alan J. Pekula, then working his way up to associate producer. But his first production credit was on the 1988 film Working Girl, starring Melanie Griffith and Harrison Ford. And then in 1994, he produced Wolf, starring Jack Nicholson and Michelle Fyfer, baby. I think it's also interesting the projects that he chooses because Doug Wick, the producer, said... It's all over the place.

Yeah, but he said that he was always very specifically interested in female empowerment. And he said after working on Working Girl, he was thinking about teenage girls and how suddenly they come into this enormous power of their sexuality. And how to maybe make a movie about that. I was very aware that witchcraft is an age-old metaphor for talking about female empowerment and the sort of mysteries of women and their connection to nature in terms of reproductivity. He also did Girl Interrupted. That's cool, but also it's interesting that the female empowerment comes from an old man thinking about teenage girl's sexuality.

But, you know, I'm sure it came in in a good way. He wasn't jerking off to it. I mean, obviously he made a good, at least respectful movie. He did. For sure. And again, old Pat. Oh, Pat. It's going to come in and make sure it's all legit. We'll get to Pat in a second. Peter Phil Darry only had two writing credits at this point.

And sometimes I'm shocked at how these people end up with these gigs when they have so little behind their name. I never understand. When they get this. One for one writing credit for the TV show, McGiver. And one for the movie Flatliners about medical students experimenting with near-death experiences, which also wouldn't you know it leads to dark consequences? I think one of the reasons of how he did get to work on this movie, because they got together and somehow they spoke, apparently, he said, Doug and I spoke for hours about magic mushrooms and ecstasy. I remember telling him that magic is historically a weapon of the underclass. It was originally practiced by people of the heath or heathens, poor people without the power of a king, army or church behind them.

Our characters could not be popular, beautiful overlords of their school. For real magic to work, they would have to be outsiders with more than desires. Real magic requires need. Doug agreed. He had young daughters at the time. He was a great collaborator and advocate for the project. It's just cool because they must, this is the dude that must have been at least practicing Wiccan rituals or something. Like, he's very knowledgeable about the idea of where the religion comes from.

Yeah, or just, you know, general occultism, too, because... Yeah. Wicca's sort of an offshoot of the Order of the Golden Dawn. Yes. So, like, there's such a rich tapestry of occultism, and Wicca is a part of it. One that I would consider more openly feminist than others, but, like... Because we have the power. Yeah, it's right.

We got the periods. We got the power. You got the moon blood. I get it. Yeah, you can never have our moon blood holding. I drink cups of it to try and have it. I still can't get it. I only refer to periods as moon blood now.

And I think that it really gives it a power that I never realized or needed to realize. I think you should call it moon juice. Oh, I need my moon juice. Moon juice comes out when a moon. moon is high. Oh, oh, here comes the juice. I will start saying that every time I have my period. That, of course, is the song that was cut out of the movie.

I can just see Jackie smashing through a brick wall with a big old jug of her moon juice and making kids. Fildari does a bunch of research. He writes a first draft, and then he brings in Fleming, and they take it from there. Oh, oh, so yes, Fildari based those main girls on people he knew. But even more, he said, they were inspired and empowered by goddess archetypes and earth elements. And of course, this is where the earth elements come in. Sarah is Earth. Bonnie is wind because she's got that foresight, yo.

Rochelle is, because Rochelle is a diver, she is water, I guess. And Nancy's the most volatile, so she is fire. And Pat actually, oh, Pat, wanted it to be different, actually. wanted a couple of them Swiss, but we'll get into that. Either way, let's talk about casting. Don't have to spend too, too much time, but we just want to talk mainly about the main four. 85 other actresses screen tested for those roles. I guess this was a hot, this was a hot get, I think. Oh, well, especially big female characters, like juicy, meaty female roles. Yeah. In 96, 95, whenever they're casting this, it's hard to come by. And it took them nine months.

to cast it as well. Because they were going through so many different because even like you said, Holden, Alicia Silverstone was originally tied to it. They really wanted Scarlett Johansson, who was 12 at the time to beat it. And they're like, well, we could age her up a bit. But she's too young for it.

The first person to be cast was Rachel True, who played Rochelle. She came out of New York City, where she went to NYU for college and made her television debut in 1991 on the now weirdly, evil the Cosby show. At the age of 25, then she moved to

Los Angeles and appeared in shows like Beverly Hills 9-0-2-1-0 and the press prints of Bel-Lair. But not a ton of film stuff. It was probably, however, the horror film embrace of the vampire that probably put her on the map to be cast as Rochart. And what's cool is that I completely identify with her

when she says, when I was starting out as an actor, Heather's was on TV every day, like the craft is now. I remember thinking, I just want to be in a movie that's cool and fun and everybody loves, and they still talk about it even though it was years ago, like Heather's. And then she found herself into crap. Oh my God, she manifested it.

So Rachel True's character, Rochelle, was originally written as white and bulimic. She said that she came in and she read for Andy Fleming. Luckily, they switched that up. I think that having the racial component in that movie added a really great layer that just wasn't there in most teen movies. A lot of the times, the roles I played, I literally say the words, are you okay? So this time I got to play a character who actually had something going on. That sucks. Yeah, that is, that's amazing.

Then you have Faruza Balkk, who played Nancy. She was the other early casting decision. She was named by her father. It is Persian for turquoise given to her due to the color of her eyes. She began acting at six years old in Vancouver, Canada, and at nine, she got her debut role in a 1983 television film, The Best Christmas Pajat ever. After that, she got the role of Dorothy Gale and returned to Oz, which was a minor break for her.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a fun watch, man. It's so weird. But that's one of my favorite Oz books that's based on, too. It's a good, good one. Dude, I feel like I need to go back and rewatch that. Oh, you do. Way too long.

Her leading that, so this led to other roles, including the Milos Foreman directed Valmont, which had her living in Paris for a time at the age of 14. She's one of those people. Yeah. She was from a, this was Natalie's favorite. She's from a Rintfair family. They had a pagan upbringing. So she was pretty prepared research-wise and already owned several books on the subject of Wicca.

And after the movie was done, she ends up buying Panpipes, a magical supply shop in Hollywood. So she's living the role. She's the real deal. I didn't know that about her. But it was awesome, but not surprising. I think I would have been more surprised if her parents were, say, accountants or something. Yeah, we're like lawyers on Wall Street. or something.

I'd also go out on the limb and just say that there is really no the craft without Faroza Balk in this part. Yeah. She brings so much realism to it and such a, she's not a fake goth chick. She's real and you can tell and it's really sucks in movies when they cast girls who have no bearings about what it is to actually experience like darkness. What are you talking about? I'm so goth, Natalie.

Yeah. Is that crazy? I'm just a got a girl. But that's why. But the role of Nancy is so meaty. And even the casting director said, for Nancy, obviously the villain sometimes takes the most chops. And to create a real high school girl who can seem accessible and relatable and then travel to far off sociopath places and still give a coherent performance is a lot for a young actor to pull off. A few people were mentioned who were very attractive, who didn't have the chops.

And Faruza Balk at the time was a kind of actor's. actor. If you'd mentioned her name to Neve Campbell, she'd say, wow, Fruzabal, she's awesome. She wasn't so much known by the public, but she was a pretty clear choice to go after for the villain. That's awesome. I just really don't think it would have been the same

movie without her. No way. No, those crazy eyes? I still yearn to have that kind of crazy in my eyes. I know I got a spark of it, but I don't have the whole banana. And the grin, man, that the fucking big teeth smile

that she's got his sucking off. And everyone I've ever talked to that has met her at cons, that is hung out with her for long senses of time, that she's just the chillest, coolest woman to hang out with as well. Oh, I haven't been able to do this in a while, but guess who has a celebrity ghost story? Of course she does. I feel like Fruza Palk is a ghost.

So I don't know if that counts. That is what our episode is about that she's the ghost haunting somebody else's. I'm taking all these other actresses. Robin Tunney played Sarah. She came out of Chicago where she did a bunch of one-off TV show gigs like Law and Order and Life Goes On until she gets that part of Deborah

in Empire Records that we mentioned before. That was her first big thing. And it was why she ends up wearing a wig for the craft because she had to shave her hair for that role. She was initially to play Bonnie, but it had to be persuaded by the producers to take Sarah as Bonnie ends up who ends up getting Bonnie right,

Neff Campbell, who came out of Canada. And she was inspired by performance of the Nutcracker. That she saw at the age of six to get into ballet and eventually trained at the National Ballet School of Canada. But due to injury, as things can happen in that field, she went into acting at the age of 15. Her first big gig was a Pepsi commercial in 1991. She made several appearances on Canadian shows

like The Kids in the Hall and Are You Afraid of the Dark? Before moving to L.A. where she got some early auditions, including one for party of five, which ran for six seasons and made her a semi-household name. Skeet, Skeet, Skeet, Allrich comes next. Well, Nev was in a very fun, Are You Afraid of the Dark episode? Oh, yes.

But this was her first film to get a wide release. Which was the Nev, are you afraid? Which was the Nev one? Her episode's called The Tale of the Something Soup. It's about a poison soup. Ooh, you gotta be soup in me! Yep, Jackie. Does that poison soup happen in?

You got to watch it. It's really fun. She is compelling. She is very upset. It's spooky soup. I'm terrified of soup. Is it going to be chunky? Is it going to be strained?

This is a trigger warning for you, Jackie, because it is soup heavy. But also, I also wanted to say Nev was in a movie in the early 2000s called The Company where she actually got to play a professional dancer and she did all of the dancing parts. And it was, she did a great job. It's a really, if you're into dance, it's a really good, like, dark drama. Never thought of her as a dancer.

So that's really interesting. And she got that far with it. Either way, Skeet Ulrich was born Brian Ray Trout and had a pretty nutty upbringing because of the age of six. He was kidnapped by his father, according to him, and spent the next three years moving from Florida to New York to Pennsylvania.

And finally to North Carolina, where he was reunited with his mother and never saw his father again. That's pretty bonkers, huh? Yeah, what a way to start. I know. His whole life's story is bonkers. I didn't know anything about him, but he's had a weird life, starting with having the unfortunate last name of Trout.

Yeah. And an unfortunate nickname of Skeeter, which was given to him by his little league coach, due to his small stature, which is funny because now a bunch of women want to climb him like a tree. Oh, what if I could? What if I could? He also had a poor health as a kid

And he climbed me like a tree Natalie, I think He also had a He also had poor health as a kid And had to get open heart surgery at the age of 10 He had first wanted to be a marine biologist But switched schools to NYU Where he was noticed by famous playwright David Mamet

Which is crazy And that's what brought him into acting professionally He went to L.A. after that Where he struggled for a bit but it was director Stacy Cochran who gave him his first big break in 1996 as Winona Ryder's boyfriend and boys. And actually he got the job

because of Robin Tunney. He had met Robin Tunney in New York when he was still at NYU and they were friends. He said she lived in the East Village and I just lived and I lived just north of the East Village. I was off doing Bruce Beresford's movie

Last Dance and I guess she had talked to Doug Wick who produced the craft and said he should look at me for the part. So they flew me out and I had a few days off from another film and I went to Doug's house and read scenes with Robin. I was like, wow, I never thought about this side of the business. We weren't that deep into the internet era. So it wasn't like you just had accounts of how people got jobs and this and that. I was like, oh my God, you mean I don't have to go into a little room? So they just got the job. But he does openly say that he was horrible in this movie.

He was like, I was so green. I look at it now and people talk about it and I go, oh, God, I was so bad. I think his performance is great. I think he's a horrible monster person in the movie. He played such a quintessential 90s bro in everything. I still can't stand looking at him. But that's because he did such a good job at it. Dude, but talk about a glow up, at least for me, because I was in love with him and scream.

But now watching scream and watching The Craft again, I'm like, Ooh, he is a child and he got hot. He got hotter as he got older, a hundredfold. Yeah, dude. I'll fuck the shit on that guy. Right. But shall we now move on from the cast and talk about this Wicked environs her as, and I also have a brief history of Witt.

Old Pat, Devon. I think she was young when she did this. Oh, yeah, no, she was young. We were taking this and running with it. I'm pretty sure she wasn't an old woman even. No, she was young, and she was also a member of one of the largest and oldest Wiccan religious organizations, the Covenant of the Goddess, and at the time she was the first officer of the group's Southern California Local Council. Yes. Andrew Fleming said, I hired somebody who could advise us

on Wicca, a form of witchcraft. Her name was Pat. She was great. She became our spell consultant. Some of the incantations in the film are traditional, but some we wrote ourselves. Pat would rework them, make them realistic, but not too realistic. The spirit the girls invoke is called Manon, who's invented. We thought it would be more. respectful to make a god up. Even what she said, I think this is so cool. She said a lot of my suggestions were acted upon and virtually all of my suggestions were given careful consideration, even if they didn't all end up in the final version of the film. And yes, they created men on so that nothing, you know, they didn't want, the quote is they didn't want hordes of teenagers

running down to the beach or out to the woods, invoking anybody real. But Menon later appeared in real books, however, though she did extend. extensive research, Pat Dixon, before the movie, to ensure that there was already, that there was not already a deity named Menon in existence, the technical advisor had seen his name appear on lists since the movie came out because people assumed it was real. However, his name resembles an actual Gaelic god, Mananan. Menonin is God of the sea. Invoking his spirit would have made actual sense in the movie as afterwards Nancy has the power to walk on water and is offered the gift of sea creatures.

And I don't know if I'm pronouncing it, but I think it's mananan. Mananan. Manon. Do, do, do, do. Yeah, guys, we get it. It's just the way for the Muppets to invoke some ancient god

into the homes of like all these children. Dude, that would be sick. It just makes me love the Muppets more. So she gets this job through a guy named Matthew who got a call from the production who runs the House of Hermetic and a cult shop in L.A., who had been contacted

by Sony to get a technical advisor. It was very important to the both of them. He called Pat specifically as he was like, we have to do this magic trick where we have as much influence on the production as possible as this would be a widely released product representing Wickey, even though this still is a big, you know, fancy Hollywood film. So it's not like a documentary or anything like that. So she gets to work.

She introduced the concept of a glamour to explain the magical illusions, as well as binding. She also wrote in an initiation scene in order to justify the threat of death to Sarah later in the film when she says she wishes to leave the coven. Pat said, I suggested several possible ritual acts for that scene. Andy chose a drop of blood in the wine, which is based on a right of my 1734 group.

I asked my high priestesses permission before suggesting it, which is pretty cool. This is just so cool. I do, I know. I hate that it's men that wrote it. I hate that men that are responsible for this movie. But I do love the respect with which the movie was made. It just makes me love it even more.

She was also responsible for the girls wanting a fourth so that there could be one to call each corner. Though she originally had Bonnie as fire because of the burns, which fucking makes so much sense. And Nancy is air. And I guess they just didn't think air was deadly enough, but that's ridiculous because air, like a hurricane. Like, you know what I mean?

Twisters, yeah. Oh, no, that's all just movement of air. I think they even made a comment like Twister hadn't come out yet, so we couldn't convince them that air was scary. It was terrifying, yeah. That's, I mean, all elements can kill you. It doesn't make any sense. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Also, Devin wrote, Pat Devin also wrote a spell to make the movie number one at the box office. And that happened. And it happened. Now, shall we do a little, a quick little rundown of which. Wicca and the basis of the Wiccan religion. Hail to the guardians of the watchtowers of the North. I won't continue. But I'm thinking it.

Yeah, don't summon anything right now, Jagie. I can't. It's just the three of us. We need a fourth. What are you talking about? Wendy's here. We're already having internet issues, which I'm pretty sure is because you've been invoking things.

Oh, no. And Wendy is here. Wendy's the fourth. She's the four watchtower of the wolf. Wendy's the fourth. Either way, a brief history of Wicca. We won't spend too, too much time on it. But either way, it is also termed pagan witchcraft. It is a modern pagan religion. It was developed in England during the first

half of the 20th century. It draws from a diverse set of ancient pagan and 20th century hermetic motifs. This is secret groups that would study the occult metaphysics and paranormal activities. There's no central authority figure with the core practices and beliefs originally outlined in the 40s and 50s by two folks, Gerald Gardner and Doreen Valiente. And I think that's one important fundamental basis of Wicca. There is no main book. There's no, there's no Bible. There's no like Jesus.

No Torah. Yeah, which is something that I'm attracted to more so than anything because I think the hierarchy in religions can cause a lot of corruption, which it does. Right. So I think it's a little bit more organic and more internal, which it's kind of what I think the intention is. There is, you know, there's no Wiccan Bible. there is the book of shadows.

This is like a cookbook of spells. And what you do with this book is you, you fill in the blanks. You create your own. There's a lot of blankness to that book. Yeah, it's creating your own rituals. It's making it your own. And that is part,

it's bringing your own power to every situation because that's what makes it unique to you. And also, thusly, makes it more powerful. Right. And also it's a cultism has also been always more welcoming to women where like a traditional, Christianity is very patriarchal.

Even back as far as the golden dawn, women were considered equal members, which was not something that's happened in other more traditional religions. Right, right. 100%. And that's why it becomes feminist in these ways eventually.

Regardless, many in Wicca believe in magic, which is basically defined as the science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with will, which we spoke about, just making the change happen. But there's also the definition of the science of the control of the secret forces of nature. And these are two different approaches to a view on magic that you could combine for sure. But either way, it takes it more to a law of nature disregarded by modern science.

So common wicken spells include those use for healing for protection, fertility, or to banish negative influences. There is also a delineation between white magic and black magic, which we said before, the latter of which is attributed to Satanism. also referred to as the left-hand path and the right-hand path. Yeah, this is all sort of an archaic explanation or almost like an outsider's version of an explanation because white and black magic aren't really terms

that are used anymore because to consider something that's black as bad doesn't really make sense. It's sort of like perpetuating the idea that if you are a devil worshipper or something that you're a bad person and if you are a, if you worship a different deity, you're automatically a good person, which is bullshit.

And also Satanism, excuse me, I'm on my soapbox right now. Satanism is also, Levain especially, but modern Satanism very rarely actually worships anything because a lot of times it's primarily done by atheists.

It's more about, it's almost like a philosophical experiment more than anything else. And believing in yourself. Yeah, it's definitely sort of, Yeah, it's like an anti-religion religion. So the idea of using the word Satan and is already so misconstrued and like. And then black magic.

Right. And then to do evil, to invoke evil into the world and things like that. Right, right, right. Is, is no blend. There's no, there's no specifications about if you're a bad person, you, you worship these things and wear these colors, which is like what that's perpetuating. And that's fucking nonsense, obviously. But either way, as for the general morality, many present themselves as quite a positive force against the powers of destruction which threaten the world. But there is no dogmatic moral code with the idea that you are free to do what you will.

However, you must also take responsibility for what follows. But that also makes sense because I read this really in-depth article about that a Wiccan was, of course, someone that practiced Wicca was pulling apart the movie and actually, surprisingly, was very very, Of course, because of Pat Dixon, was very surprised by how much that they were representing Wicca properly. But like you just said, though, Holden, but one of the things that is the cardinal rule of love magic that was broken in the movie is that she focused her spell on a specific person. And that interferes with another person's free will, which is why you're not supposed to. if you're going to create a magic spell, not put it towards one person, it is put out there of your intention

and what you seek and what you want and they will come to you. But when you put it on a specific person, that impedes their free will, which is something that is a huge cornerstone of occultism is preserving our free will. Yes. But, you know, it's interesting

because in the movie, that sort of displays the consequences of those actions in a way that does sort of show kids moralistically and using inductive reasoning and using these examples as what happens if you try to control another person, like what results that will entail. With magic or without magic. Like don't control anybody.

You know, you can't make anybody do anything they don't want to do. Right. And again, we bring up here the law of threefold return, which states that whatever benevolent or malevolent actions a person performs return to that person with triple force or with equal force on each of the three levels of body, mind, and spirit. By the powers of three times three, make them see, make them see. Make them see. This is another part that in the article I was reading that they were talking about the

law of the threefold return and how Lirio in the in the witch shop that they go to, that Lirio says, maybe you're a natural witch, your power comes from within, that she's spot on with the law of the threefold return and her analogy on spellcraft when answering Sarah's request for advice and how to undo a love spell. She says, when you open a floodgate, how do you undo it? When we unleash something in a spell, there is no undoing. It must run its course. And she hits the nail on ahead with her response to Sarah's accusation of black magic.

When she says, true magic is neither black nor white, it's both because nature is both. Loving and cruel all the same time, the only good or bad is in the heart of the witch. Life keeps a balance of its own. Yeah, preach it, old Pat. Preach it. Yeah, maybe. Old Pat, going to tell you so. Oh, Pat knows what she's doing.

There's also the belief in the five elements seen as symbolic representations of the phases of matter. These are air, fire, water, earth, which we also, which we mentioned. And the fifth one being aether or spirit, which unites the other four. That's why you need the four corners with the spirit in the center, yeah. With the three times three as well, they obviously show it in a very literal way where if you make somebody's hair fall out, all of your hair will fall out. Like it doesn't, I don't think it happens like that normally in life, but I do think that there's a very natural law, scientific, carmic, all of it way that happens in the real world where if you. Your symbolic hair will fall off. Right.

It will happen. Much like Holden, because you created Harry Fish. fingers, you now have a penis that is a fish. Yes, that speaks to me and tells me not to have sex, and I cannot stop it from doing that, which is terrifying. And I feed it worms. But either way, there's also, as for practices, many rituals, and this is where we get to the ritual scenes, many rituals are done, often during a full moon or a new moon,

inside of a ritually cast and purified magic circle, often using magic tools, such as a knife called in a femme, a wand, a pentacle, and a chalice, and other tools such as a cauldron, candles, incense, and a broomstick known as a Bessam, and a curved blade known as a bowline,

which are placed on an altar, placed in the center of the circle. And, yeah, so that, those ritual scenes, again, were quite authentic to the point where we think actually, uh, they invoke some real shit.

Yeah, like when Nancy screams, Menon, Phil me! And the entire, crew lost power. Everything went out when she screamed that when they were filming it. Isn't that awesome? I love it. So let's get into it. Let's get

into the filming. We're done with the Wiccan stuff. We can talk about all the shenanigans I mean, we're never done with the Wicke and stuff. But, I'm man, I will whip myself thusly. You should. You'll never have have our power. I'll whip myself thusly. Moon juice.

Moon juice. He failed to drink the moon juice. Now he must receive the Whippinings. That just sounds like something you would like, Hold on. Also, I think that... Exactly. I secretly love it. Before we leave Wicca, I think it's also good to note that they do not shame sexuality, in fact, embrace that part of human power and female power. Yeah, it's part of our fucking power. Never take it from us. Ladies are scared the shit out of me today. Either way, filming took... I feel powerful. Filming took place all over L.A., including the Los Angeles International Airport, Sunset Boulevard,

and Verdugo Hills High School, which was the setting for the fictional Catholic school, St. Benedict's Academy. They had to add a bunch of religious iconography all over that school. But Andrew Fleming said, it was exhausting. A lot of location work, a lot of nights. One time we started to film outside because the forecast was good,

only to be caught in a massive deluge. And once, a flock of crows just flew in out of nowhere. Another incident has become part of folklore. We were shooting on a beach. The girls were doing an incantation, and we'd carefully worked out tide time. Then, as we were filming, the sea suddenly rushed in and washed away the whole set.

No one could understand it. But when you're shooting horror movies, weird stuff happens. Apparently a bunch of bats flew in too during that scene. I mean, that's just awesome. Yeah. And that it's actually that, like, he even said that when the camera is spinning around and the wave wipes out the fire, that that's actually what was happening. Cool.

That they just kept that in, like, that you can see. And I went back and I watched it too. You can see as the waves are getting closer and closer to them. and it wasn't supposed to be anywhere near them, which is awesome. Yeah, yeah. They, like, talked with an expert of the tides. Yeah, they talked to the park ranger of that specific section of the beach.

And they're like, it never goes past here. And fun fact, they actually killed all those sharks. No, they did it, Ellie. But another weird happening was that the cast and crew were followed by a white owl to, like, multiple different locations. They didn't understand what was going on. just the same white owl kept showing up. Yes.

Which also, I have owl tattoos because an owl, apparently an owl is an entity that connects you from other energies and other lives to you. So if an owl keeps coming to you, it means someone or something is trying to connect with you. This is what I was always told as I was being raised by my mother. with a lifelong obsession with owls. Yes, and now that I've got the owl thing, because we, with one day, it was like three weeks after my grandfather died, my mom and I went outside to where our pool is that's completely enclosed by a screen.

And there was a baby owl sitting inside of the Lanai looking at us. Oh, wow. I never heard this story. And that's why I've got the owl tattoos. My mom was just like, that's pop pop. And I was like, what the hell are you talking about mom? She's like, no, it's pop pop. coming to tell us that he made it to the other side

and that he's okay. And there's no other way that it could have gotten inside of the fucking screen. How did you get in the screen? I never heard that story. You had a cool, you know, baby owl by the pool? Yeah, inside of the screen. Oh my God, you're a witch. Yeah, I have the same thing, but with an old guy

jerking off. It's like everywhere I go, there's this old, same old man. Is that your grandpa? Does he have a fish for a dick? Oh my God, I never checked, because I'm always trying to avoid eye contact with his penis. But either way, I loved what I told Lexi. I was watching the craft the other night and she texted back. Enjoy.

I hate the ending because she has a horrible phobia of snakes. Oh, yeah, of course. Over 10,000 snakes were used on set. But what was so funny was I was like laughing at how many snakes were in it because I find glee in her phobia, which is probably bad, but whatever. But I was just like, this is hilariously terrible for Lexi to watch. And then it cut to a sink full of squirrel. Corpians and I was like, that's my phobia!

And so they really got them all in there. I mean, the maggots are terrifying. They're spiders, yeah. That shit really got me. Like, I was alone with the lights out and I was just like, ugh. Yeah, it's creepy as hell. And there was an animal trainer because they were trying, they were trying to use the smallest amount of CGI possible,

because especially at the time, and you could definitely see when the CGI is being used. So they were actual, the 10,000 snakes. They had the animal trainer for it, but also, and they said that Robin Tunney was really the only one that had to put up with it. She was completely fine with the snakes. They had to fill a toilet completely overflowing with maggots. And even Andrew Fleming said, I think I'm going to throw up. But Robin Tunney said, I was completely fine, except I have a phobia of birds. So there were no birds.

Yes. Well, yeah, I mean, that's not even a thing. I would have been like, why are there birds in this? There's all these scary. I don't consider birds scary. though. That wouldn't have been frightening to me. But she's got a phobia of birds. That's so funny. And then the owl. That's so cool. But either way, I think they nailed that whole sequence. It was so well done. Nancy's transformation scene where she gets serpents for fingers and hair with bugs crawling out of her mouth was the most complicated scene to shoot. They shot Nancy on the floor and then the snakes individually. Sony Image Works, the special effects house, put it all together. Well, I remember when this movie came out, even just the trailers for it, the stuff that they did in that movie where, like, she changes her hair color in the, when they're messing around.

That was this huge deal at the time. Like, this was like crazy effects for the 90s. It looked good. I mean, it holds up. That effect still looks good. Oh, yeah. For sure. And Nancy's transformation, I would say, I mean, you can see the CGI a bit, but it's pretty solid job of combining.

real effects with... Well, and also... Also, Furzebalk sells it really hard. She's... She kills it. Yeah. She's so scary in this movie, like when she turns. And apparently, and not in like a method actor kind of way, I did read in multiple interviews

that Nev Campbell and Rachel True were like, became best friends really fast in this movie. And they just kind of stayed away from Faruza Balc. They really wanted to be friends with her, obviously. but Rachel Trues said, I think it was a little harder for Faruza. She had an intense vibe and you kind of just had to let her do her thing because you knew she was carrying

so much of the weight of the film on her shoulders. So Nevin and I were going over and cracking jokes around her and then we would just leave her the hell alone. It works though for the relationship of the characters because they should be scared of her. Yeah, to keep her at arm's length is like sort of,

she's always a little bit dame. even when she's being fun at the beginning. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. And can we talk about the clothing real quick? Yeah. Because Deborah Everton game on as costume designer for the craft. She had met director Andrew Fleming because she was working as an assistant costume designer

on the abyss that Andrew Fleming was also working on. So Everton, to him, was the obvious choice when Fleming came to film his sorcery-themed new project. Everton said he really trusted me to take that role and run with it. He really is fun to work with because he gives you your reign. That's a lot of fun for a creative person. So obviously we said before he wanted the girls to dress like they were in the cure. And she was so used to creating her own costumes that usually she was the one that would go out. And she's like, I'm way more likely to, you know, it's like, oh, we have to make this piece of jewelry.

And I'm going to go get the stuff and build it myself. but she wanted these girls to be accessible. She wanted that if girls wanted to dress like them, like we wanted to, for girls to be able to dress like them, to not it be this like, oh, they created the outfits themselves. She wanted the clothing to be things

that you could find in regular stores. She paid close attention to, obviously, Faruza-Balk's costumes because she was the most damaged character in the film. She wanted her clothes to be like an armor for her so she would scare people off. She was like, let me do the rejecting before I'm rejected. Her character live in a trailer park and her mom was an alcoholic.

They didn't have a lot of money. So a lot of her stuff had to come from pretty low-end sources. If I couldn't find what I wanted, I just would make it. Her PVC coat said a lot about her character. I may have made that, but I can't be 100% sure. Normally her character would have thrifted clothes, but you can't get the multiples you need when you're buying vintage clothing. And she wore that coat several times, which also now you can buy it Hot Topic.

I really dig the outfits that she never wanted the girls, even though, again, having to wear school uniforms. She never wanted them to look like anybody else. So every single one of their outfits is purposely curated for each girl every day, down to all of the accessories, to really accentuate the differences between them and other people. Yeah. And it really, I mean, it is so effective as a young, like a tween at that time. It was so effective for me. And that scene still, when were you watching it, where they've started doing all their rituals

and it's working and they're walking through the cafeteria and their new sexy clothes. Like, oh, just pump it into my veins. Oh, I want our power. Hold it. You'll never understand. I release me. I compel you. The power of... It compels. Power compels.

The makeup effects were supervised, by the way, by Tony Gardner, who has done makeup design, special effects and puppeteering via his effects company, Altirian, ink for a slew of films. I recently mentioned him in our Child's Play series on Wizard of Brouser, because he did puppets for Seed of Chucky. He also did Zombiland, 127 hours, hairspray to name another connector to our John Waters episode and the Adams family. Hell yeah. And he also, he helped

create Daft Punk's signature helmets. This guy is a badass. Dude, that's awesome. That is cool. I love Adam's family and, uh, what, oh, Zomilylands also fantastic. Zomilyland's fantastic. Seat of Chucky's puppet shit is so awesome. Like I'm such a seat of of Chucky fan boy now

because of that episode, but either way. And people are like, What are you talking about? Also, apparently people really angry for me saying that Child's Play 3 is the worst of the franchise. Either way, talk about those tweets at a different time. The soundtrack, we already mentioned. See, I said earlier that the soundtrack wasn't good at up. If they had been able to include all of the songs from it, but I just remember getting the CD of the soundtrack and it didn't have all the songs on it.

And, of course, when you're that age, you're so upset because you're like, But it didn't have the part when she's doing the thing. And then that song. But where's that song? And at the time, you can't just go on a Spotify like you can now. Yeah. Well, also, $12.99 for a CD, man. You don't have just money growing off the trees.

You got it because you really wanted the songs. Yeah, I had to babysit for it. Copyright issues kept Porta's head off, Connie Francis off. And how do I say this, sootsie and the banshees? Sucee, yeah. Sousy? Whatever. There's an X in the words.

Susie and the banshees. Our Lady Peace letters to Clio though And Jule all right there for you on that soundtrack But I will say I love me some hour lady peace I tell you what I still is an hour lady piece And you can go ahead and judge Holden you gotta look into the banshees They're very prolific band

Yeah dude there's an X in there I don't think I can trust him I get it I understand I get it So yeah who did the cover of how soon is now Good question I don't know off the top of my head. It's very upsetting because I didn't remember that was a cover until I've watched it again recently. And it's exactly the same except with like less. Love, spit, love.

That was the name of the band? Yes. What? Love spit, love. Yeah. That is the name of the band. Oh, man. Oh, man.

I'm sure they're very nice people, but absolutely not okay to cover that song and do it. it exactly the same. It was probably, again, a rights thing. They could probably pay less money to get that version of it. I'm sure. Probably. Yeah, probably. But also, I think, so I never watched Charmed, but even just looking this song up, that

apparently this song, which this, because talk about the shit they throw at the, at the show Charmed and how much Charmed stole from the craft world as well as they used that specific song as the theme song for the television show charmed. You know why? Cha-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-in. I never watched that either, but that show was on forever, wasn't it? And now there's another version of it on as well. I imagine I probably would have loved it at the time.

I just never really got into it. I was too busy watching Buffy. Yeah. You know, I couldn't do both. It was never something that appealed to me, and maybe it's because I felt like it was a little bit funny. Yeah, fake Buffy is what I called it. Yeah.

friends. Either way, the team diligently followed all of the guidelines to get a PG-13 rating, but still ended up within R. No nudity. No F-words. F-words. Fleming chokes us up to the MPAA, feeling that a film with girls doing witchcraft, aka

being empowered, right ladies? Was a dangerous influence on young viewers because you young ladies need to not feel empowered by doing badass witchy stuff and dressing up like the cure. So whatever you're R-rated, you can't go see it, only your parents can. No, they straight up.

said that the MPAA said that it was because it was about devil worship. It's not devil worship. There's nothing in there. What are you talking about it? So they would not budge on making it rated R. So dumb. That's actually infuriating.

Also satanic panic nonsense. Like, it doesn't even matter. Like, if there was devil worship in a movie that doesn't give you an R rating. That shit is not stopped since the 80s. It's still happening. Now it's with the Q-Anon shit. It's so dumb.

Right. But what's really crazy to is that Rachel True was, and this, I never realized this, Rachel True was left out of all of the promos and publicity shoots for the craft. She says there was a publicity junket that they were all going to take the other three girls to. At the time, 20 years ago, I was like, oh, it's me. It's me. It just must be me. And now I realize it wasn't me.

It was marketing. They didn't really think it was going to get a black audience, as my guess. That would never happen today. If you have four leads in a movie, you will take all four leads. But that's something that people don't quite understand. It's like, why do black people still whinge on about that? Well, because that stuck with me all these years, that for some reason I wasn't as important. Now I did eventually get added to that junket because one of the other actresses said,

you should really bring her. We're not going without her. And what I think is very awesome is that the other three girls were like Fuck you Okay, well now she's not in these publicity shoots We're not doing these junkets without her It's the four of us

We need the four of us to do the magic This is a huge They are the four lead characters of this movie You're not going to ask her to do It's just one of the four leads That is beyond being stupid I mean it's shameful Like it's disgusting

But it's so dumb Like even if you're soulless Why would you exclude somebody from that except for racism. Like, why would you do that? It makes no sense. Because it's not for a black audience. What the fuck are you talking about?

True. No, it's not true. It's just a great movie. And there's a whole racism subplot, but whatever. Oh, yeah. By the way, also, what's her name? Who plays the bully, the blonde,

the Marsha Brady, Ben Stiller's ex-wife. Yeah. I've got to say she fucking, the ritual that she did so she would lose her hair for what she said is not even that bad. And she didn't, I mean, she could just put a wig on.

I don't think Rachel Trues' character really deserve that much punishment for just doing a thing where the girl lost her hair. Towards a racist person. Also, her name is Christine Taylor. She was very good at being a bitch. Yeah, and fuck that character. She deserved losing her hair.

Either way, the film opens at number one at the U.S. box office, which made it a sleeper hit. There was also a noticeable uptick and folks contacting their local Wicca groups to get involved. And so massive hit, obviously, there's going to be a sequel, right? Well, a straight-to-d-d-div-dequel was initially planned but was scrapped, and in 2016, Sony announced a sequel in development, which would be written and directed by a woman named Lee Janiac,

who directed a horror film called Honeymoon that Jackie likes. Oh, yeah, I like that movie. In 2014, and currently has three Fear Street films in post-production, Jackie. Wow. Very excited about it. You know what? I really did straight up. Rolled my eyes up and down the freeway about them doing a reboot of this movie.

But what changed my opinion is in the trailer, the picture of Nancy, which means that they are tying it into the first one, which means I'm going to watch the fuck out of it. Of course. And yes, it probably won't have the same Jue de V as the first one, but I'm going into it with new eyes, new mind. Let's see and hope that maybe they can influence in a good, respectful, positive way for a young, for the next generation of witches. Absolutely. I'm excited. I know people were sort of getting irritated that they were doing it, but I saw the trailer and I was like, I won't watch the hell out of this. This looks great.

Well, you two are talking about the Kraft Legacy. I was talking about the canceled sequel. But yes, the Craft Legacy was announced back in March 2019, produced by Jason Blumber Bloom of Blummer. Bloom House productions. Nobody knows. And there's no way to look that up. It's under that banner with Andrew Fleming serving as executive producer. The film is a standalone sequel, but it will

be released via video on demand on October 28th, 2020, so as of this recording in just six days. It is written and directed by Zoe Lister Jones, who is mostly known for her work on the TV shows Delocated, Whitney, and New Girl. And the main

four are Kaylee Spani, Gideon, Adlin, Lovie. Simone, can you guys get more normal names please? And Zoe Luna, all of whom are pretty much unknowns. I would make a joke about like, oh, these new millennial fucking kids or these new John Z kids. But in the original one, two of their names were Farooza and Nev. So it's not like it was like.

Yeah, these are just cool girls. Yeah, exactly. That's true. They have to have weird names. That Doug Wick said this about the reboot. He said, it's not so much a remake. It's sort of saying young women exploring their power. What would that be like right now?

Obviously, it's an incredibly relevant, exciting subject. So we hired a really great female writer-director. We were only going to explore it if there was an exciting way to go. And they came in with something very fresh. New group of girls, much more of this era, who begin some explorations with power that they don't understand. They had just incredibly compelling ideas for a way to make a new, exciting, surprising movie for teenage girls.

Because the craft not only did it open up obviously a world for the others, for us to fit in, to learn something about our feminine power. But also thinking about it too, which I never thought about in this way, the craft was a teen movie that dealt with sexual assault, body issues, racism, suicide, the, you know, family assault and alcoholism in her house. Family beast, yeah. The mental hospital bit in the end is definitely dated and hopefully they can update that because that is not how these things work.

No. But I think it was a very interesting way to open up these ideas to teens that weren't usually talked about. The suicide thing, the fact that it was brought up immediately and it was an open, even that she made the joke of like, she even did it the right way. She did it for real. Yeah. The right way or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. I remember that was a big thing when we were a kid. Like I remember talking because of course we were, you know, I was a new metal baby that wanted to be a little goth girl that was talking like yeah you'd never cut your wrists down the side you have to do it down what is it you don't cross the street you go down the alley yeah oh i never heard that and uh that's how i remembered it was was was i feel like i'm just

really dumb asking this but was light as a feather stiff as a board a thing before the this movie or was that yes i remember i remember doing that as a kid always did it we always did it and then i know that she had like a hydraulic lift in doing that. But we did it all the time. I think between this and the recent season of Penn 15 of watching how girls interact with each other and like in a kind of sleepover, it's like

we always did Liza Featherstiff's Board and Bloody Mary every single every single sleepover. Never worked. So I have my final quote for this episode. Shelfst, I read it now. Not that you know, I don't know

what I'm saying. No, I want to let him flounder in our feminine mood. Please, sweet. With his fish, penis. Very fish fingers. You witches. No, please. No, please.

Am I right? Either way, here is my quote to finish it out, regardless. This is from Pat Devon. I love this. On the last day of shooting at the beach, one of the actresses asked me to dedicate her to the path of the goddess. We walked up the beach in the dark, away from the lights to a cove, where I dedicated her and presented her,

to all four quarters. For her name, she took a name that I told her I would have named my daughter had I ever had one. I think probably for Rizabalk, right? Probably. I'm gonna assume because she is the one that ended up buying a neo-pagan shop.

She's the one that was really doing it. And she haunts other people. She's a ghost. She is a ghost person. So there you go. That's all I got for the craft. Do you guys have anything else before we wrap this up? I don't know. I think I got all of my screen.

in that I wanted to. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that I did as well. I just love this movie so much. It holds the fuck up. Yes. I know that, again, it is dated. It is dated in how women are viewed. It is dated in how girls are treated.

Hopefully. Uh, I don't know. I'm hoping. I'm hoping that it is something. I'm putting out my positive intentions, Natalie, right now. Whoa. So don't, I will, if you ask you. me too, I will white light you. Yes, my mom

has taught me the ritual. And yes, I can do it for you. Oh, God bless you. Slightly dated, but holds up like a motherfucker. It's going to be my stature. Yeah, if you haven't watched it in a while, or I mean, obviously if you've never watched it, you've got to go fucking watch this movie, but if you haven't watched it in a long time, it's a really enjoyable watch

and it's, you know, it goes fast and it's fun. And it is funny, though, too. It harkens back to what Holden, and I love that you have grown to this point of like, I, because Jeff had said the same thing, because he hadn't seen the craft since like high school and he was like, I just always saw it

as the girls movie and now as as you know dudes that are around your age, everything was like, ah, it's for girls and it was such a different time in the 90s of like that's for girls and that's for boys and that we don't have to deal with these like gender

construct bullshit as much anymore. It's like Romeo and Michelle. You know, I was like damn, I wish I had like I should have watched this years ago. It's just so good. Yeah. And thank you guys so much for joining us. And I hope that you enjoyed it and go watch the craft and go get spooky.

It's spooky season, bitches. Hell yeah, dude. Plugs, plugs, plugs. We got some plugs. Just come join us on Saturday nights in October with Haunt Your House with the LPN. Crew, different people every Saturday night at 6 p.m. Eastern. No.

6 p.m. Pacific. Pacific. Pacific. Henry always gets to. I forget, man. You know, the one where the craft takes place. So, yeah, we're watching different movies and raising money for different organizations, and we're having a fun time with our socially distanced Halloween.

So come hang out. Yeah, check me out. Twitch.tv. Fort slash Holdenators ho. Check out me and Jackie do Jacketies every Friday night. And Patreon.com forward slash page seven podcast. Ladies, release me from your powers. Also, no, we'll never do that.

And also, Haunt Your House is at also on Twitch. Twitch.tv.tv. TV backslash last podcast network is where you go to do that. And Holden will never let you go. You're stuck. I compelled the moon juice to release me. Never talk about my moon juice. You can't control the moon juice, dude.

No, you can't. My name is Jackie Zabrowski. If you'd like to join us, November 5th, I'm starting the plugs now. 6pm Pacific Standard Time, 9pm Eastern Standard Time. Holden, Natalie and myself will be. be watching the first Twilight on the last podcast networks, Twitch stream. Again, that is

November 5th. That is a Thursday. And talk about getting, well, I guess we're not getting witchy. We're getting vampy, and it's going to be sexy as fuck, so you should totally join us. Hell yeah, we love you guys. We'll talk to you soon. And we love dead teenagers.

Bye, everybody. We don't find you. Bye. Bye. This show is made possible by listeners like you. Thanks to our ad sponsors. You can support our shows by supporting them. For more shows like the one you just listened to,

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