Page 7 - Pop History: The Muppet Christmas Carol

Episode Date: December 22, 2020

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Jackie, take it away. When a cold wind blows, it chills you, chills you to the bone. Is that where you expect me to sing? Any of them. All of them. All of them. I'm doing a madly. You're doing a madly.

It brings you with indifference like a lady paints with rouge. And the worst of the worst, the most hated and curse is the one that we call Scrooge. Give it a real pirate edge. Oh, yes. I think that Muppet Christmas Carol might be the most annoying thing to watch with me. in the entire world. I gave a preface. I gave a preface to my roommates

before we watch it. I was like, I will sing this entire movie. I will scream every word. And so what I did was first I watched it alone. And then I watched it with other people. Welcome, welcome, welcome to the Muppet Christmas Carol Pop History episode. I'm very excited. This is a Browski, this is a Browski stronghold.

This is the heart, the hearth of, our Christmas home. And actually the things that we are going to talk about today, when we get into Paul Williams, we get into everything with this movie. I wanted to do this last year, but we did, and I loved doing Scrooge last year. But I remember reading the article about Paul Williams after we did the Scrooge episode. It's like, fuck. Oh, now I really want to do the Mother Christmas Carol episode.

So this is a year in the making. And I love every bit of the making of this movie down to the fact that. that, I mean, we all know this year when love was found again. And we've got so much to talk about. How do you guys? I also, I'm going to throw this out there. I'm going to start this with I have a sibling, not my brother, who hates the Muppets? So it's always been a very difficult part of growing up.

Who hates the Muppets? What other siblings did she have? My sister hates the Muppets. And yes, Jessica, I'm throwing you under the bus right now because she hates me. She's owning it, man. That's crazy. And every time we would say, and then Henry and I would sing the songs even louder because she would just talk about how much she hates the Muppets.

And we'd be like, we hate you. And it would be a lot of that. What's her reasoning? I feel like I know. I feel like I know. Because she's a bit older than you guys. So when you guys came into the scene, she was already growing into teen years. And I think because it was the little kids thing in the house, she immediately, as a teen

must hate it no matter what. There's definitely that, but also she's very scared of puppets. And I do understand that. I get that part of it. But I think it's because I think Poultergeist ruined her as a child. Not a fan of Sweden. She doesn't like any of them. I get it.

Poltergeist did not ruin puppets for me. No, it didn't ruin puppets for me. I'm still, Poldergeist is probably my favorite movie of all. But she also is not a big fan of horror movies. You know, so there's a lot of things. She's very different from us in many, many ways. And people always like, oh, you never talk about your sister. Well, my sister hates the Muppets.

I've never met someone who hates the Muppets. By the way, I love that because back in college, my buddy Fed hated the Beatles, which I feel like is not that hot of a take anymore, really. But it was college especially. But also Fet was in like the music scene, like the indie music scene. I would introduce him at every,

Right? I completely understand. But in college, like, I would introduce him as like, hey, let's say, like, Ryan, this is my buddy Fed. Fed hates the Beatles. And I would just walk away and literally like an hour later, I just hear in the corner of my ear, but what about the White Apple? I'm just going to say, but what about the, I knew it was what about the White Album. It's always the same thing. But I do, I'm sorry, Jessica, that I immediately threw you under the bus.

But I mean, y'all know how I feel about not only the Muppets, but the Muppet Christmas Carol specifically. I talk about a continuation from last week's episode on Charlie Brown Christmas. This is something that doesn't hold children's hands. I like that it's creepy. I like that originally there's a love song in it. I like that it doesn't because originally we'll get into when they first started writing the script. This was going to be a silly romp. They wanted to make a fun, crazy version.

of the Muppets doing the Muppet Christmas Carol and then essentially Brian Henson was like fuck that the Christmas Christmas Carol is a creepy story what a radical thing to have to do to a man for him to not try to kill

all the poor people but not only that it's like the Henson legacy too when we were talking about Charlie Brown really addressing childhood psychology and and addressing kids not speaking down to them, that's definitely something Jim Henson's always implemented in his stories.

And that definitely plays in, like, Christmas Carol doesn't feel like it's pandering to kids. They talk about death in it, you know? Yes. Because that's what the story is. The stories about dying. Yeah. I actually really like this quote from Frank Oz about Paul Williams and Jim Henson in their relationship. Paul Williams, of course, wrote the songs for.

the movie, as well as Rainbow Connection in the original movie. Oh, that's my favorite. I think it's his simplicity and his heart and purity. And where it comes from for Jim is the purity of intent, the purity of character, not being afraid of sweetness, not pejorative sweetness, not real actual valuable sweetness. Jim was that, and Paul is too. They're able to be sweet without being saccharin. Jim hated being cute and hated saccharin.

He hated faux sentimentality. What we got from Paul was exactly the reverse of that, exactly what Jim wanted. He and Jim somehow just connected. They just did. I don't know how many times he worked with Paul, but every time it always felt like he was part of the family. I do like that sentiment. I also love, which I kept reading again and again in different interviews of how much they hated Bean Bunny and how much they loved to hate him, which is why they incorporated Bean the Bunny. He's the one that's singing, you know, Good King, Wancher Sloth.

squirtles, I never know how to say it. The cute one that gets the turkey in the end and they made that Muppet to be so saccharine cute that you hated him. What about the Mises? Oh, no cheeses for us,

Mises! How adorable those little finger puppets too, which makes a lot of sense. They were just little finger guys that someone's hand went up through a wall. They're so inventive with how they built the world in this movie.

We'll talk about it time and time again about how terrified Michael Kane was on the set because the humans had to just walk along planks of wood without looking down because they were the ones lifted up in the air so the puppeteers could be under the floor. And that's so crazy. That's such an interesting way of how they used perspective in this movie to hide things. And now that in watching it this year,

I watched it for the first time with the eye of how are they doing all of this and how did they choreograph all of this and how difficult that must have been. And it was. Also, that how good it was that you've never thought about it before. Never thought about it. Because that is the trick is trying to make it so that you're not thinking about how they made all these things happen. You're just like, you yourself are, what's it called, having a,

immersed in it? Immersion. Yeah, yeah. Like you're, I forget the fucking term. It's like, what about Bob? What about Bob? Also directed by Frank Oz, but we're not going to get into that right now. Crazy, that blew my mind.

Where has my brain been? The same, Frank Oz is the Frank Oz of the Muppets that directed a million movies that you love. What? It hurt my brain. Why have I never thought about this before? But let's, I think, have you guys, have you, I feel like I'm just going to keep gushing and I will just keep gushing. So should we just say, for me,

I super loved this movie when it came out. I think I saw it in the theater. And I'm a huge, huge fan of the Muppets. We did also, too, a good brother episode to this episode might be our Wisn the Bruiser 2, part or on the Muppets as well, to give you more of a background. And I kind of love it too,

because I don't think we really went in deep at all on Christmas Carol. So this is a really nice getting to go back and really explore this film. And just coming up through, I think I really rediscovered it though, honestly, because of Jackie and I do have a memory of you bringing the VHS to the apartment I shared with Ben Kissel in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, and we got really drunk and really high and watched that film. Bringing a bunch of, a little tiny bit of innocence into your filthy debauchery. Filthy existence that we were living in.

There was a woman being just absolutely ravaged in one of the bedrooms. I remember her hours during. Which is a great second soundtrack to Paul Williams. beautiful soundtrack. I'm so disappointed. I'm so disappointed. I'm so disappointed. So much disappointment in that apartment.

But Muppet Christmas Carol, it still, it really, it still makes me, I cry every time and I watch it. I cry every single time. I cried watching it and so funny I was talking before the show. Now I just cried the second I see Tiny Tim because, and it's so funny because he doesn't even, spoiler alert, it's like, you know, Tiny Tim, who did not die. It's like, I know he's not going to die, but he still. But I always cry during the,

Tis the season to be jolly and joyous. Yes. I love, oh. Well, you know, I got it. The time I cried and I got to give a big, fuck you very much to Holden was he directed me to go to Jim Henson's funeral. No. Yes, we will talk about that.

I went down a rabbit hole of videos of his funeral. No. Yes. If you want a good cry, definitely watch Big Bird singing Bein Green at Jim Hinson's funeral at the very end. He literally says by Kermit, and it is the saddest thing ever. Stop, I'm going to start crying right now. Stop.

It is so wonderfully sad. And then all of the ducks on the river. A bunch of the Muppets come out and sing a medley. And first it's just the guys doing the meddling, and then they bring all of the characters out too, and the characters come out and sing a song. It's upsetting. It's very upsetting.

It's so sad. I cried in the middle of the day at work when I first saw that. It was a lot of fun. But I needed to cry at that. at that point in my day. But either way, I mean, I think it's time to jump right the fuck in. The water is nice and toasty,

and we gotta get in there. Yes, a Muppets Christmas Carol in 1992 American Musical Fantasy Comedy Film directed by Brian Henson, Jim Henson's son. It is the first film to be produced following the death of Jim Henson, as well as performer Richard Hunt, who was the puppeteer of Scooter,

Janice, Stattler, Beaker, Sweetums, and several other Muppets. The movie is adapted from the 1843 novella A Christmas Carol by Charles Dickens and stars Michael Kane as Ebenezer Scrooge alongside Muppet performers Dave Goals, Steve Whitmire, Jerry Nelson, and Frank Oz. What's funny is I essentially just kind of copy and pasted the Christmas Carol bit that I had from the Scrooge episode. I love that this is the second piece of media in one year that we are covering that is adapted from Charles Dickens's classic. It will be the last for this year. But we are aware of a Christmas carol also if you haven't read it

It's really short and you should totally read it because it is Creepy It's very it's a creepy little story Sure and I think what's interesting about this bit that I will not read verbatim because I said it out loud in the Scrooge episode is just that he started out Well to do as a child his family at least was well to do he was not a child billionaire because that only happens in cartoons That would be sick He started out a well to do family, but then they had a big downturn.

At the age of 12, he ended up essentially just like working in a shoe polish warehouse and just like immediately went from comfort and nice living to total poverty. And he has this really strong memory of all of the people and places and events that happened around him in his life. And yeah, started writing and it was Oliver Twist, of course, the story of the, what, it's the orphan right or whatever. and he's all like, Ew.

Do you think the shoe polish fumes helped him right? Maybe he made him trip out. He was like, that's why there's a dragon at the end of the novella. But either way, 1843, by the way, was when this was written.

And yeah, Carol was based on a Christmas Carol, a Christmas Carol in prose being a ghost story of Christmas, by the way, is the full title. It was based on a trip to Manchester and the conditions of the manufacturing workers there. So he set up to, quote, strike a sledgehammer blow for the poor.

And that, while writing the book, he wept and laughed and wept again, which is honestly my experience watching Muppet Christmas Carol. Oh, yes. And it was written. You know, I think that that's perfect. It was written in only six weeks, and the book was sold out by Christmas because the publishers didn't believe in him, so he paid for a Christmas Carol to be produced, and it was sold out by Christmas.

And something that I didn't realize from the last time when we did. Scrooge is a tiny Well, obviously, Tiny Tim is actually based on a combination of two real people in Charles Dickens' life. It's based on his sickly younger brother who was named Tiny Fred

and his nephew. Tiny Fred. That's what I called my cock in elementary school. Oh, call it Tiny Fred. Now I hope you think about your little dick with a little crutch and it's dead. Tiny Fred is dead. All right.

Everyone's dead who we're talking about. His nephew. The book was written in the 1800s. They're all dead. They're all dead. Who's the other dead person that's based on? Tiny Tim was an amalgamation of Tiny Fred as well as his nephew, Henry Burnett, Jr., who was disabled. So he mixed the two.

And so he wanted, because he wanted to bring, how would he write about someone who he actually knew that could die if they had no money? And that's very sad. Think of his little crutch. Oh, God, so tiny. So small in his little hat. Little crutch is what I call my dick. No. But either way, yes, that is very sad.

And I just think it's important to talk about the class divide that Dickens faced throughout his childhood and into adulthood. It plays such a huge part in this. And just the way that, you know, the rich can be so fucking greedy and the poor can be so wonderfully selfless in these interesting ways. And it really puts things in. perspective, you fucking rich fucks. I'm talking to you McConnell. But either way. Finally, we get to talk about him.

No, not in Muppet Christmas Carol. Bannishing. It's in Bail's house. It's in Jim's house. And it's in Tiny Friends house. Keep talking about my favorite Christmas movie. So before we get to talking about specifically

Jackie's favorite ever Christmas movie, I do think it's important to give just a brief little rundown of where the Muppet The Muppets timeline and how we got to where we got to with Jim Hinson's son, taking the helm and directing it posthumously after Jim Hinson's muffugga death, bra. No. So here we go. Jim Henson's childhood was forever changed when his family got a television set.

While his grandmother at the same time was an avid painter, quilter, and needleworker, and encouraged him to use his imagination. In high school, he created puppets for a Saturday morning children show, and at college, he did a puppet show for the local TV. TV station called Sam and Friends. This is where we're going to get the initial development of the Muppets. Actually, we saw, Henry and I went to the... I know what you went to. In New York? No, it's in Atlanta. There's actually, I'm so sorry, I'm blanking on the name, but it's basically the National Puppet Museum

is in Atlanta. And we got to go to a Jim Henson exhibition that was there, and it was unbelievable. And we got to see, they had the original puppets that he did when he was younger. And I will say, I get how people become creeped out by puppets, especially older puppets. But I would say for older puppets, they're not as creepy as other old puppets. Yeah, he kind of already was working. And I don't understand why people got so weird, why people got so weird with puppets.

Like, like, he kind of figured unlocked the key. It's like, just make them look inviting on any level by giving them felt and making them soft. I know. Well, something he was tapped into that. somehow, even early on, because his older puppets aren't as creepy as you would imagine they would be. Well, and also, I think that's why he made Kermit the way he did, where Kermit has no stuffing in his head, so that he could use his hand to create actual emotions on his face. I think that is something that people get creeped out by puppets is the fact that you can't see their face emoting.

Right. Their cold, dead eyes. Yeah, I get it. I get it. I love you. Can I live in your house? So he's working on this, he's working on this TV show called Sam and Friends, and he pulls in Jane Nebel, who he met in college to become his assistant, and later his wife.

And together they have five children. Oh, pulled her in to a lot more, you know what I mean? You know what I'm right? One of those kids is Brian Henson, and he was kind of checked out as a dad, by the way. This is the weird mark we hit in the Muppets episode was he was so busy pleasing all of the children of the world that he sort of, sort of neglected the five right in front of him. My standard is so low that if he didn't touch anyone, I'm just like, fine. You know, that's all I'm pretty sure he didn't.

And, you know, really all that meant was if you wanted to hang out with daddy, you kind of had to like work. Get into daddy's business. Haven't you seen the Santa Claus? That's how it goes. If you're going to give happiness to millions of people around the world, how are you supposed to keep your own kids happy? Who's got that kind of time? Not me. So Sam and Friends starts out with the puppets doing a lot of sing-alongs to popular songs of the day.

And eventually they started working in those sketches and parodies that the Muppets would later become super known for. Also, the word Muppet gets coined at this time. It's a mix of the words Marionette and Puppet. And after an inspiring hiatus in Europe where he got to see a lot of like French puppetry and that sort of thing, Henson and his creation, Kermit, began making appearances on shows like the Ed Sullivan Show and the Jack Parr program. while Rolf actually was the first big hit for him, he became a sidekick on the Jimmy Dean show, a regular reoccurring character that would come back on and on.

So actually, weirdly enough, everyone thinks Kermit first when comes up. It was really Rolf, the piano playing dog. But I will say Rolf looks, his original Rolf looks nothing like the current Rolf. I will say that. Very different for sure. So Jane eventually has to, I don't know, like become a full-time mom because Henson's too busy doing all this other stuff. so she is replaced by Frank Oz and Jerry Jewel

and Sesame Street debuts in 1966 and then there's this weird thing about Saturday Night Live everyone should watch the first season of Saturday Night Live it is the fucking weirdest thing ever and part of that is because Hinson brought his Muppets not like the Muppets we know but he brought these his Muppets to S&L. Dirty late night Muppets. Yeah it was really but they weren't and like Michael O'Donohue

classically said I don't write for Felt and they hated the presence of those Muppets. They were a weird fit for what that show was and eventually became. I get it, but also, like, expand your brain space, bro. Figure it out. I don't write for felt. And Hinson's wrestling with this right now because he doesn't want his thing to just be a kid's thing.

He's always trying to separate, you know, because Sesame Street's a big hit, he's got the child market down and later, of course, with Fraggle Rock. But he really wants to, like, a more adult-themed show. So he puts out two TV specials, one called, The Muppets Valentine Show, and another called The Muppet Show, Sex and Violence. And this airs on ABC as a sort of pilot, but networks weren't convinced. Yeah, seriously. Wait, yeah.

The Muppets, the Muppets, sex and violence. Yeah, yeah. What? Are you lying? No, not at all. That was the first of two specials that were like pilots. And again, it was just him being like, it's for adults. I think I was just him forcing the issue to, like, not have any confusion here.

Like, I'm making this for adults. I don't know that I've ever heard that fact before. Yeah, yeah. I've never seen those specials. I want to go back and watch those specials. What happens in the special? I didn't actually watch it. My problem is I have Meat the Feebles in my brain.

Yeah, exactly. I'm like, it was me. I mean, I ever think about Meet the Feebles. And Meet the Feebles is a very difficult movie to find. I think it is, I'm going to say in my top 10 favorite movies, but it is, that's what I think about. Last time we streamed it, it was on something weird and it was really low quality. It's hard to find. Yeah, it's hard.

So he's unable to convince networks. He ends up moving to England, and that's why a lot, that's why he has such strong ties to British production companies and all this sort of stuff. When the Lord Lou grade came in, that's his name, Lord Lou. When Lord Lou came in as the London-based television producer that finally gave him the money because Jim Anson just realized maybe America doesn't understand what I'm trying to do here. What I'm laying down. Yeah, absolutely. And that is exactly the truth. And so the show first airs in England as the Muppet show in 1976 and eventually makes

this way to America to great success as we now know it. After that, of course, came to films, the Muppet movie, which was a huge hit. I mean, and is phenomenal. And as the song, Rainbow Connection, written by the guy who wrote all those awesome songs in Muppet Christmas Carol, as well as the Great Muppet Caper, Muppets Take Manhattan. Man, also, Disney Plus, Disney Plus is so smart because I'm so excited. Because, again, I pay for Disney Plus. I don't use it very often.

I'm trying to watch it more. And I was like, oh, it's great because Muppet Christmas Carol, throwing out there, is on Disney Plus right now. But they're so smart because they own all the Muppets. So they don't put all the Muppet movies on there at all times. They like phase them in and out. That's one of their fucking, that's when they do from the vaults. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, they're over there. Oh, I want. They own us. It's true. But I do love Disney Plus, and they have a great show about the behind the scenes of the animal kingdom. But I want to see Muppets Tick Manhattan. I want to be able to watch Muppet's Nickin'Hatton. That's the best one.

That's the best one. I just said it. The Muppet movie is on there, which is delightful. Hard disagree. I think the Muppet movie is the best one. Absolutely not. You both are wrong. Mubbitt's Tick Manhattan has that dumb baby song, and so it's the worst.

Excuse me. That was the precursor. Hello. Hang on a second. That is the pre-Bin-Bin-haven song. precursor to the Mubba Baby show, which is my favorite cartoon of all time. So come back. You're going to go outside.

Let's take it outside. I'm going to go outside New York. You're going to go outside in L.A. I'm going to be freezing cold. I'm not. It's beautiful here. No, it's beautiful here. It is covered in snow out there right now.

This is about community. Listen. No more fighting. No one putting up politicians. What is so bad about? Mama, da da, da, boopo, pshua. I'm shocked Natalie's coming at me with this energy.

Miss like, I'm not going to have kids. Like, how? You don't like babies? No more fighting. I like Muppet babies. Hey, Boldenburg. Stop it. Done, done, done, done.

Keep going. I'm staying inside. I'm staying inside. And then in 1990, another big turning point we just talked all about Disney. But Hinson and Disney established a creative collaboration for theme park stuff. I got to see this like early on, like right when it came out was like my one trip to Disney World as a kid. But that Muppet Vision 3D showed. that they did. It's the best.

Was awesome. It was my favorite. It was so fun. Probably my biggest memory from that trip. Like, it was so funny and all the effects. Didn't you get like water on you and stuff? Yeah, it was Muppets 40. Didn't they just close it?

Yes, they did. But Jackie, you and I went to that like maybe three or four years ago. I remember. I mean, that was our favorite. It was one of our favorite being in the Muppet part of Universal was always our, I'm sorry, that was the MGM Studios. Yeah. That was always our favorite.

and sitting also the AC, and it was right next to the Jones ride. Oh, yes, you got a break from the heat. And the star tours. I love star tours. But I'm sorry, continue. Well, now that we're talking about things we love, let's talk about things we hate.

Also in 1990, Jim Henson dies tragically at just 53 years old. It could have been avoided. It's very sad. I think if he had gotten to the hospital, just a little bit sooner. He would have lived. Dude, it's crazy. They said if he had undergone antibiotic treatment

just a few hours sooner he would have survived. I'm sorry, what was his death caused by again? It was pneumonia and it was complications with pneumonia, but then part of it was this like, I mean, I don't know science, something about a virus that was accompanying the pneumonia, that he just needed this antibiotic treatment that if he had just gotten it literally hours before he would have survived. I spared myself the play-by-play

because I was really upset about it the first time I did research, on this whole thing, but I just was one of those things, too, though, I think that he just never slowed down, he never stopped. And he didn't listen to his body, which I think is something that we all need to remember. Very much. It's listening when you think that there's something wrong. And he really just, he straight up was like, to his wife, he's like, I don't have the time to deal with this. He knew that he was sick. He knew that it was bad. And he pushed and he pushed and he pushed. And not to say that, like, he did it to himself. But I am definitely very guilty of doing the same thing. And so there are times like this, we have to remember, we lost a visionary because he didn't

take the time to listen to himself. Well, I think that's, I think that's one of the reasons his funeral is so heartbreaking and so, so massive because I think it was, you know, funerals are for the people who are left behind. And I think people were so shocked and not prepared for it. They, his funeral is a huge production. And you can go find most of it on YouTube. And it's really incredible to watch, although fuck you Holton because it was very upset. Yeah, it's definitely watched Be Agreed, sung by

Carol Spinney in the Big Bird outfit. But what's crazy? It's very upsetting. Is it not only was everyone that loved him so upset and shattered by his death, but so was his business. And this is something that I didn't realize, as much as like I knew a lot

of how into the making of this movie, is the fact that Disney pulled out from the Muppets immediately. The second all of this stuff, everything shattered and no one wanted to touch the Muppets. Yeah, it wouldn't be for 14 years till they ended up actually getting back up and, you know, getting back involved, which is a big part of how this film was made. But it is also why it was so important that, and again, Brian Henson, who directed Muppet Christmas

Carol, was not only his son, but also began performing as a Muppettee. here in 1981 with the great Muppet caper. He was working with his father and he was terrified of taking over for his dad. Can you imagine how even though he was in the family business, but part of it was making sure that everyone knew this is still a family business. We are still going. So this is a triumph story in reality of, so not only is it, you think like, oh, but the Muppets were so established by the early 90s, but not enough without Jim Henson.

Muppeteer Dave Goals said, we already knew that Jim wanted the Muppets to live beyond him, because that's why he was selling to Disney. The question for us was, were we up to it? Did we want to try it? And we all felt that it was our life's work. It wasn't just a job, so we decided to try. And I think that's an important part of it, too. It wasn't just about money for these people.

It was literally like their legacy was smashed with a hammer in a lot of ways out of nowhere and at the height of its success. And, you know, it was important for them to say, hey, Muppets will go on. So, and I get emotional talking about it. And I hate myself for it. I know. No, I completely understand. I was just starting to tear up and just thinking about the fact that Brian Henson begged other people to be the director of the first movie back. begged them and no one.

And like all of the Muppeteers were behind him and supported him completely, but they didn't want to take it. And Brian Ensign knew that this was a test, that if this movie didn't go well, that the Muppets were done. And that is, it seems like it's such like, oh, no, they wouldn't have just been done, but they would have been. Everybody pulled out. It's so, uh, it makes me so emotional.

I know, right? I love the Muppets so much. Why, and wonderfully so, and that's what they needed was reinvention, why a Muppets Christmas Carol is so different from the previous films as well. And I think it did such a good job of maintaining the heart, maintaining the character, maintaining the comedy of what the Muppets were. Definitely. But also paving a new way and saying it's not going to be the same, but it's still going to have these, hit these notes, and we're going to keep going. And I think that that was a really beautiful thing. Yeah, and it didn't feel like strangers.

It was, I think that they really, like you said, you can't make it exactly the same, but I think it kept the spirit of the characters. Yeah, but it just, it being, it being an adaptation, it having these like very intense, dramatic elements to it, the main characters being not Muppets, being Michael Cain as Scroo. I think there's all these little touches that just say, hey, this is just not the, not, an H.O. Grand Pappy's fucking. Muppets. Moppers.

Well, that's why I think it's so... That's why the idea of how the script transformed is so cool because originally when they sat down, they were like, all right, we're going to write a Muppets romp of a version of the Christmas Carol. Which is like, that doesn't work, you know?

Yeah. It doesn't work. This actually came from a talent agent named Bill Haber who approached Brian Hinson with the idea of filming an adaptation of Dickens' work telling him it was, quote, the greatest story of all time, you should do that. and then Haber just went ahead and sold the thing to ABC, very much like...

The peanuts. So similar to the peanuts with the Charlie Brown Christmas, which is very funny. And that just kind of forced the issue. So that's when they sat down to work on the script. Hinson said, we set to work on the script. The Muppets are famous for questioning the status quo and anti-establishment irreverence. So we took that and pointed it at Charles Dickens. Robin the Frog was going to be the ghost of Christmas past.

Miss Piggy was going to be this Bacchanalian ghost of Christmas present, which I actually kind of would have loved to see. An animal was going to be the ghost of Christmas yet to come. We were going to do a rumping parody, as Jackie said before. In a perfect world, I want to see that version as well. I would like to see both. If they want to go back and redo it, I would definitely watch that tape. But then they realized they wanted to bring soul to this movie in a way that they had not done before. And one of my favorite ideas, so one of the first two people that they cast then, Muppet-wise, was Kermit and Piggy as Bob Cratchett, Mrs. Cratchett.

And just the idea of this makes me really smile. And originally, they were going to make hybrid Muppet babies of frog and pig babies. And they were like, oh, no, no, that's a little too weird. They were trying to do like the genetics of how Kermit and Piggy would have. had actual babies, and then they were going to make the piggies green and the frogs pink, and then they made the pink frogs and they just looked like penises. They couldn't do that either. That's so funny.

I just love that idea. Terrified, but also I want to see the hybrid. I know. I just feel like the kids would just be like, kill me. Genetic mutations. Also, I love this from Henson, or from Brian Henson. Nobody had ever captured Dickens's prose.

the wonderful way he describes the scenes. So we had to put Charles Dickens in the movie. Who's the least likely character to be Charles Dickens? Gonzo. So we made him this omniscient storyteller with Rizzo, his pain in the neck sidekick. 95% of what Gonzo says in the movie is actually taken from the book, which I love. And of course, Rizzo also acts as a sort of Greek chorus throughout the whole thing. Like the Ramp, not the Rack!

Then they bring in Jerry Jule to write the script. Jewel worked on various children's shows for local TV stations growing up while in college and met Frank Oz at a puppet theater when they were just teenagers, which led him to meeting Henson. Henson brought Jule in on Sam and Friends way back when to write an alter to write and was later headwriter on The Muppet show and collaborated on the script for the Muppet movie. Lisa Hinson said, so much of the humor, irreverence, caring, and heart began with Jerry. He was in many ways the real voice of the Muppets.

Well, and that's what's crazy. I didn't realize how much Jerry Jule had written of the Muppets. Frank Oz also went on to saying that he was the person responsible for bringing heart to the Muppets. He just knew the characters better than anybody else. He was brilliant because he could be funny but not nasty. He always saw the affection between the characters. Because that again, like Michael Donnie was saying before, I write for Felt, which is such a cold, bitchy thing to say. Well, that's what he was.

I know, because that's who we, I know that's exactly who he is. Then there's Jerry Jewel, who's the opposite of that. It's like, no, no, no, okay, you don't see the feeling in these puppets. They're more than puppets. I love the interaction and the creation of the idea of Gonzo and Rizzo as bosom buddies work so well. To the point that in my brain, I always thought that they were sidekicks and realized, no, it started. with Muppet, Christmas Carol of why they're so, like such a good friend. Also, realizing the nod, I realize this probably about five or six years ago,

but when Gonzo walks into Fezziwigs party and he sees the chicken go by and he goes, wow. And now that I realize that it's because Gonzo likes to have sex with chickens, and that was his probable penis getting hard. Yes, absolutely, which is fantastic. But it could have gone worse for us like no, curled up when the chicken walked past. They don't take it that far. Little friend.

They don't take it too far. They don't take it too far. Little Fred back at it again. So after they sent the script for approval from ABC, the Disney execs decided to purchase the thing to be released as a feature film. It was originally going to be made for TV which would have been like this incredible

made for TV thing. And so much better to go in the theaters even though we'll talk later about how that kind of fucked it. And I will talk about TV specials. Another favorite in our household is the Christmas toy. And I don't know if you guys ever seen the Christmas toy before, but it is another Jim Henson television special that Hennon and I were obsessed with growing up. And it's another one of those where it's kind of weird and dark and all the toys come to life. It's like it was

Toy Story before Toy Story. No, I don't know that one. And it came out before Muppet Christmas Carol. So it was actually like a Jim Henson Christmas production. Oh, yeah. It's still one of my favorites. Oh, cool. Oh, I don't know it. It's delightful. But you should look it up if you want another Jim Hanz and Christmas special. Anyway, sorry. I pulled it up on my phone and enriched the first picture before the movie was up.

Was a Christmas ornament of two elves fucking. Oh, yeah. That's the Christmas toy I want to get behind. Sorry, natural reacts. I don't know. Sorry for any child that was curious about that film. Jesus. Let's, uh, what were you about to talk?

I was about it going on the cast. Was that where you were at it? Yeah, because I was, I was just thinking about that with the TV special. Before you even say that, obviously, it is Michael Cain that was cast as Scrooge. Originally, George Carlin was offered the role, which I see. Because, again, it was the idea they were creating a much different movie originally. Would have been like Scrooge. That is a very different idea.

And again, I want to see that. Yeah, I think he could crush it. He played the train captain on Shining Time. station. Like he, he did kid stuff. He was great in Bill and Ted's excellent adventure. He's in the Prince of Tides. Like, he was starting to really act more. And so, but then, of course, given to the perfect Michael Cain. Michael Cain, as Ebeneezer Scrooge, he first performed in a school play at the age of 10 in Cinderella. And his fly was undone when he hit the stage. And that got a laugh. And apparently that laugh gave him the acting bugs. It was all from a

little Fred of his own. He struggled for the first decade of his acting career until he moved to London and ended up as Peter O'Toole's understudy in a play in the West End, which he got to fully take over when O'Toole left to make Lawrence of Arabia. After that, he got regular film and television work, which led to his first breakthrough, or breakout rather, in the film Zulu,

and later started in the comedy caper film, The Italian Job, which was a big... Oh, is that the one with Charlize their own? And, uh... Uh, you remember? with the cars? No. But also we did Get Carter,

which also had a dumb 90s remake of its own. Oh, cool. Actually, Get Carter was really, the remake was actually quite good. But that was back in the early 70s. Then he's working through the 70s, 80s. Then he ends up nabbing his first act, Oscar, and Woody Allen's Hannah and her sisters,

which is one of my personal favorite films as long as I disregard all of the allegations, which is impossible to do these days. Either way, what is also beautiful, though, about Michael Kane taking on this role is that he originally didn't know if he wanted to take it because he also had to sing, and he really didn't want to sing. But why did he take the role? Because his daughter asked him to. Michael Kane realized that his young daughter had never actually seen him in a film before. So when the role of Scrooge was originally offered to him, he accepted so that his daughter could finally see him act in something.

This is maybe a quote that he just did for like the pressers, but I do like it. He said, all my friends have worked with the Muppets. Everybody I know has done a thing with the Muppets, and I always felt a little bit left out. But they only did half-hour television shows. I got to do a two-hour movie. So it's great. This is also, this is the quote. I feel like anytime you look up this movie, you see this quote, but I will say it aloud.

The actual, this is Michael Cain. My cocaine. My cocaine. The actual puppets are so real and with such definite character that I mean, I treat them as if I'm playing with the Royal Shakespeare Company or something. And I am playing Scrooge kind of differently from the way he's been played before. But very, very seriously. I mean, when he cries, he cries. There are no concessions made to the fact that it's a film for children or I'm with the Muppets.

And he also, I love that he took inspiration from, quote, Wall Street Cheats Simps. embezzlers. I thought they represented a very good picture of meanness and greed. And I think it's very applicable to this motherfucking year. Yes. You know, what's up? I love it too, because something which I never really thought about before is that Michael Kane and what he says, he attributes some of his best acting tips, he says, in real life, people don't blink when they're talking to you.

It's only actors who blink in the movies. So he doesn't blink. This is part of like his. So not only did he treat the. the Muppets like they were actual other actors, but he also apparently enjoys working with Muppets and Puppets way more than dealing with actors. He says human actors are always difficult, but the puppets and puppeteers were lovely, gentle people.

It was extraordinary. I mean, I imagine the egos aren't as bad as the actors. That's the thing. And the puppeteers, and when I was reading this interview with him, he essentially was talking about like working with people who love what they do is such a different experience than just making a movie or being there because like oh we get paid a lot of money this was a this is such a huge project for all of them we'll talk about in a second as well the fact that this is the first time that kermit is voiced by a different person like this is great this is a this is a very

vulnerable set that they were working on when you're on set with muppets or whatever it's not like you know in between takes on like uh have you been to quantro it's what everybody knows and everyone's in the know and you're just like get the fuck a way you know what I mean oh sorry I didn't go to quontro uh burnetta or whatever you're like all right that your parents gave you whatever whatever apple sauce or whatever stupid name your parents gave you you fucking L.A. piece of shit you you say applesau then I don't even want to know what finish the sit get it out now then get it out now hold it oh they have laser tag in the back but you can only get in with a special password it's like go actually

I don't want to play later. I was just love having the password. What are you talking about? You want to be able to get in there. You just want the password. Exactly. I do just want to be with them and of them.

But either way, I've got a bo-ta, a poiba. I don't say, mine, my, yeah, well, you can't let your lips touch or else that means that your face is in wooing too much. That'll be great for radio.

You look like the character from a living color when you made that face. Wanda. Jamie Fox is scared Dio Wanda. Either way, a little flashback, by the way, but either way.

Also, though, Jackie did call it, quote, the most difficult film I've ever worked on. That was, though, that was because he was playing it so straight and hitting all these emotional beats, but there was a lot of set chain. Yeah, I bet. I think you did a little more research into this than I did. Like, the way they would have to remove floor panels

to get them up and tiers in, and then completely do a full reset after that shot and put panels back and remove it. And it has to be, like, in the moment emotional on top of all that, would be really challenging. And it was also cute, too, that apparently in the, like, the heat wave, this is island in the sun. Yeah, I love that part. That's like, that part.

That's like, I just kept laughing. He's like, and I was the one destroying the takes because he just kept laughing. But down to the fact that, okay, it's these kind of things that we don't think about. Some of the hardest moments to shoot of this movie, Kermit blowing out a candle. You think, oh, that's easy enough. And I never thought about this before. but Muppets don't breathe. So what they have to do is they hold up in the middle of the scene,

they hold up the puppet and they have to time the firing of an air gun at the flame by someone else that can't see Kermit's mouth while he's blowing out. So it's things like that that takes such a long time to get done properly. That or, so part of something that Jim Henson was really big into for, Each of his movies, he wanted every one of the Muppet movies to move the ideas of what puppets could do and what they could be forward. So he always wanted in every movie to do something that had not been seen before, like when we see Kermit walk during the movie. That Brian Ensign said, we never had a Muppet walking full figured before. It was tricky, but it worked.

apparently it took 10 puppeteers to be able to get that shot where Kermit is placed on a snow-covered rotating drum for them to create an illusion of a natural gate

so it's underneath him moving so behind the drum was a small army of puppeteers controlling every part of Kermit's limbs in front of a blue screen and then they had to go back while the drum is moving and two people are moving that in time with them moving the puppet.

And then they had to go back in and replace them in post pro to replace them with the rows of houses. You would think after a while the number of puppeteers, they get in the way of each other. Like 10 puppeteers seems like you all just be slapping elbows and stuff. And they are, but they have to get really intimate with each other. And also just even thinking about that opening shot, those were all individually made miniature.

that they had to, that they're like pushing into the scene to get a tracking shot over something that was like that where the perspective is changing. So much work and detail is put into this movie that you don't even realize down to the fact that I mean not even getting into the fact that all of the Muppet extras that had to be created that are from the other worlds that they've in court. Like you can see lots of the different Fraggle Rock characters in the backgrounds. Like the dog from Fragger Rock also in it. So this is a community of a Muppet world that they always work with an, I love it. It's the Muppet verse. Even the vegetables hate him.

Also shoutouts to the Penguins. I love the Penguins. Also shout out to the fact that I could see Jackie's ringlight in her glasses and it's like, Jackie, it's not a video podcast. Yeah, well, I like to look good for my friends. You do look very cute. Thank you. I like you too, whatever.

So either way, it was also, this was also, I love knowing this. This is the first time Michael Cain sang in a film and he's not a singer. But he pulls it off, by the way.

I don't think I don't watch it and be like, that's a bad singer. But man, does that not make it so much more impactful when he does sing as the character screen? Yes. Because it sounds so much more like the character would sound that this character is who's never sung before, finally giving voice to song.

in this moment was so natural and so wonderful and he was really cute about it and I watched that little like when love is gone behind the scenes recording was so cute and he was such a sweet I just was like I'd love to work with him

he just seemed like such a sweetheart he just seems like such a sweet man and the fact that he came into this role with such respect for what they do and what was being made it makes I just I mean I always have loved Michael Kane but this makes me love him even more

A quick run down to the cast Because the rest of the cast is so kind of in and out And not like any big names or anything that you would know But Stephen McIntosh plays Scrooge's nephew Fred A little Fred He was he had done a bunch of British TV and film And he was also in Guy Ritchie's locksock Because he's smoking barrels

I wanted to bend him over the mistletoe When I was and then I showed I said that to Jeff I was like That shows how much my taste Specifically of men has changed In since I used to watch this because I used to, you know, trauma, enjoying men that I could probably take down if needed, like nephew Fred, and how my opinions have changed over time.

Robin Weaver, Robin Weaver plays Clara Fred's wife. She is also known for a role in the popular British coming of age TV show. The In Betweeners, very well known. Meredith Braun, who plays Bell, Scrooge's former love interest, is a New Zealand actress who mainly did a lot of stuff on London's West End, which makes lessons, because she's very much a musical theater type, I would say, for sure. Very charming. Very charming.

Jessica Fox, who plays the Ghost of Christmas past, is known for her role in the British soap opera. Hollyoaks. Alliox. That puppet, the first ghost, is the creepiest one, in my opinion. First ghost is so, the whole ghost thing is so bizarre to me. I will say one

thing that is bizarre to me is that they did not, do you have any quotes on this? Why they chose specifically not to use any Muppet characters as any of the ghosts. Because I think that's the weirdest touch. They wanted it to be more impactful. They wanted it to be, because it is otherworldly, they wanted to include something that was outside of their universe

so you didn't see them as like, oh, well, that would make sense. That's part of it. They wanted it to be jarring, which is when I get into how they did and how they created the Ghost of Christmas Pass, which we will definitely get into it. I think it's because, I think she's creepy because, It's something about flesh-toned puppets is weird to me. Sorry, go on.

Oh, yeah. And it's very, like, ghost, it's just a really good, um, it, it looks like what you think an actual ghost looks like. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It works too. But by the way, the first ghost is actually Marley and Marley. Oh, yeah, you're right.

Oh, parts of painted black. Oh, so good. Um, so let's talk about the puppeteers briefly as well. Dave Goulds, we mentioned before. He plays Gonzo as well as Waldorf. and Dr. Bunsen Honey do. Steve Whitmore performs as Rizzo the Rat, Beaker, Bean Bunny, and Kermit the Frog, which was his first turn with the role. And yeah, you have some stuff on because that must have been incredibly intimidating shoes to fill, Jackie.

Yes. So Steve Whitmore, who was already obviously been working, he worked with Jim Henson for many years before this. And he was very nervous about voicing Kermit. And he actually spoke in an interview talking about how the. night before he did his first scene for the movie, Steve Whitmore apparently had a dream that he found Henson in a gleaming white hotel lobby and confessed his anxiety about taking on the character so identified with its creator. He said, he stopped and there was a thoughtful gesture Jim would do where he would take both of his index fingers and put them under his chin. And he did that and thought and he said, it will pass. which is exactly what Jim would have said. You would have to really know Jim to get this,

but that's exactly what he would have said. Then he turned and he said, I've really got to run. And he took off out the door. I woke up and I felt great. I remembered this dream and I went in the next day. I did the work. It was smooth.

It worked fine. And I felt great. Just that little bit of encouragement. That's what Jim always was for me. I'm not going to start. crying about it Yeah If I just hold my face

Really still like a T-Rex And maybe the tears won't leave my eyes And go down the chin Well here maybe I'll help you Last night Jim Hinson appeared in one of my dreams He said look at this look it's little Fred And he was pointing down in his pants And I looked down at his penis

That tiny Fred is not his penis Tiny Fred is not his penis Jerry Nelson played Robin the Frog by others Frank Oz returns of course Miss Piggy, Fossey Bear, Sam Eagle, George the Janitor, an animal. I think Sam Eagle may be my favorite Muppet character. I am sad because I know that we will talk about, you know, obviously love is gone, but I am set, it is on the Muppet soundtrack.

Sam Eagle had a song in the original movie, and it had to get cut. There was two other songs that also ended up getting cut, but it is on the Muppet soundtrack. Because they still report of it. He's so, like, just the whole, like, self-seriesness. It's so funny. and a business way. Yeah. What was this song about?

It was called Chairman of the Board. And he essentially sang him a song about all of the things that he will do and how his and how successful he will be. And essentially driving home, which was not a needed thing, driving home that success is money. I see. And that is what he needed to remember. But we already got that, you know, obviously.

We all know Scrooge. Have you ever been to Lucas? It's owned by a man named George. You better not. I hate Lucas. That's not what the Muppets were like. You can only get in by walking into the place backwards. Yeah, but you would, again, you would love that.

All these things you're saying, you would love. It's got a ball pit in the middle of the restaurant. The second thing invited you, you would push Jackie and I into the sewer. Get out of my way. I'm going to Lucas. The table settings have their own cocaine spins. I mean, also pretty sick, but not right now, fentanyl. But either way, the filming took place at the Sheperton Studios in England.

The studio was built back in 1932 and saw rapid expansion through the 40s. In the 70s, the studio was used for Stanley Kubrick's The Clockwork Orange, as well as Ridley Scott's Alien and David Lynch's The Elephant Man. He's all across the board. Yeah, really cool stuff. And it was the very first time they used it to film a Muppets project. As Mr. Kane mentioned earlier, the setups took forever, and it was a whole situation, and the buildings in London and the London street scenes were constructed by hand and would diminish in size in order to look like the streets were longer than they actually were. Jackie was talking about how she was really watching for like how things were made. Well, one little time you can spot how things were made is during the crane shot at the end of the song, it feels like Christmas. You actually see the illusion in a sense, and they decided to keep it. the shot in because they just loved it too much and just said fuck it if they catch it they catch it

but you can actually see actually see that illusion of the buildings being smaller as they go back but either way that's all i have on filming i have a lot on the music jack you have anything else about the filming before we move on to that as a matter of fact i do so as we said earlier we were talking about jim henson and how there are little nods to jim henson in this like when Kermit is looking up into the sky and he sees a shooting star because Jim Ensign put shooting stars into all of his movies

that that was his little nod to himself so when he looks up and he sees the shooting star that was his little nod to Jim Henson and for Jim Henson. I'm not crying. I'm not crying. There's also, but also... It's very sentimental.

This goes... I don't need any help. The movie is also dedicated in memory of the great puppeteer Richard Hunt. And Richard Hunt, again, who did Scooter and Janice and Sweetums and Stattler. So they, in, during the, it feels like Christmas musical number, when Scrooge's cold heart begins to noticeably melt, apparently Dave Goals and David Rudman choreographed two horses dancing, which I know the exact part that they're talking about when the horses dance across the screen.

I love that part. That is a nod to Richard Hunt because one of the horses has a gap between his two front teeth and so did Richard Hunt. So they cut the two front teeth apart of one of the horses and named the horse Richmond. And every time they would try to take the scene out because it's not necessarily needed, they refused to take it out. We're like, we'll just find another place and it will be in there. I love that moment. Why would they be up for debate? It's so short, too.

It's like not that big of a deal. I know. If you give my memory an homage using a horse, I will return as a ghost and haunt you to death. I want to be like a big, strong man. Like getting his like up with like eight girls like or women, fully grown women sort of getting him sex and stuff. Fully grown women having sex with you. Okay, that's good. That kind of thing.

I'll be shooting a machine gun and eating. Yeah. Like sirens. I love burger and fries while I'm getting sort of consumed sexually by these, I would say, women with breasts, the silence of a city block. So when we make our puppet movie, that's what you want to be represented. Yes, I've said it on a podcast for posterity. You better fucking do it, okay? I'm not sure.

And with Taylor's not playing in the background. All right. But also, like I was just talking about with the Ghost of Christmas Past, they had to make her waterproof, which part of the reason why, she was pale like that is because the puppet was literally falling apart as they were shooting the scenes because she was a rod puppet. Obviously they wanted to make it look like she was floating. So they first tried to shoot it with her underwater. And then they're like, oh, but it's not flowing properly. It's just kind of like she looks almost like a jellyfish.

So they filled the tank with baby oil. But the high quantity of baby oil. was way too expensive so they could only do it for some of the shots and then the rest of the time they had to be put into the water which is why it would go back in on her face but it held up the glue and the

paints that made the puppet were falling disintegrating into the water and they're just like just shoot it just we just gotta get it done so they're desperately and in the end of the scene it completely disintegrated in their hands when they were done with it well it works

for the ghost stuff I I do find it really creepy. Oh, yeah. And the fact that the Ghost of Christmas present, which, again, I never thought about this before. Why does he die in the end? And I feel so dumb. Oh, I love it.

Yeah, it's because. Yeah, he only lives on Christmas Day. That's why he's had 18,000 brothers and sisters that he only exists on Christmas Day. I never thought about that before. That's what I actually never have either. Such a cool touch that it's just only in the moment, too. He lives in the moment.

So he would live and die within a quick breath, essentially. Yeah, that definitely works really well. And the Ghost of Christmas present was controlled by two separate people. It's another one of why it was so difficult to get those big shots. It's because he was done by two separate people to do one doing the face, one doing the body. And my other little things that I want to talk about real quick, the costumes. And how adorable those little fucking Muppet costumes were. And all of the Muppets, I imagine you get into it about her in the Muppets,

whizbrew episode. But Polly Smith, it was the costume designer for the Muppets since the very beginning. She even won several Emmy Awards for her work on Sesame Street. That's so cool, which is why they made every single Muppet historically accurate with their clothes. Oh, wow. So there was two separate designers for it. Anne Hollywood did all the people, and Polly Smith did all the Muppets. And it even makes sense that Kermit is wearing a high-waisted coat, which is actually out of fashion for the time period.

But Bob Cratchett is poor, which is why he has an old jacket on. Same with Miss Peggy's plaid dress and the big sleeve she has also out of fashion, but she's poor. And she also is the only one without a corset on. which I think is very cute. But they even made all of the little like hats on the no cheeses for his mises all individually made. So isn't that crazy? Like layer, all of them are wearing layers. Go back and watch it again.

Layers of historically accurate clothing. Man, that's got to be a cute room or her costume rooms just fell with tiny little outfits. Oh my God, I'm tiny Tierra. I love it. I love it. I just, now it really is. in thinking about that, and the fact that,

again, the layers and all the little vests and everything, that's a lot of fucking work, y'all. Yeah, for sure. Also, I couldn't really find anything on it, but I love the choreography in this film,

and it's so, like, in the background, and it's so awesome. You did it? Natalie did it! Tell us what I was like working with Brian Benson. Thank you. You did really a good job. Either way, also,

shout us to those penguins, man. They're just so funny. So cute. I love their little feet. I love them. Muppet feet as well. Like the way the little little feet are like slap, slap, slap.

Little feet are so cute. They're so great. But either way, let's talk about the music. There's so much to talk about here. I can't wait. You're not going to talk about the ghost of Christmas yet to come because that's what you called your dick in high school. Oh yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. You. You. He was very scary. And it actually was very difficult because they flooded the entire studio with fog when they showed up so they could only get it once. That take had to be done.

and he was on a dolly moving him in and out of the scene, but since they needed to, like, they had to get immediately rid of all of the smoke right afterwards. So it was a one shot and done, which, as we said earlier, very difficult for the Muppets to get something done in one take. So the score was done by Miles Goodman with songs written by Paul Williams.

Goodman's own cousin growing up was an Oscar-winning film composer. His name was Johnny Mandel, which is what piqued his interest to follow a similar career path that his cousin would actually end up being his mentor throughout his career. He had an eclectic taste which included a big interest in jazz

and other things. Goodman at first wanted to be a director but eventually went to L.A. to study music and film scoring. In 1979 he arranged orchestrations for the Peter Sellers comedy being there and went on to do score tons of films such as footloose, Little Shabahars, and

Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, which was directed by Frank Oz. So good. Frank Oz is amazing. He's so funny. I mean, just so much of the comedy is, you know, of the Muppets coming from him is so good. So that's, I think, how he got connected to this project was via Frank Oz. I'm not completely sure, but it seems likely. Paul Williams started out working with a guy named Biff Rose, and together they wrote the song, Fill Your Heart, which was covered by Tiny Tim, hilariously enough, the musician, not the character. And later Bowie actually, did the same on his album

Hunky Dory. He then wrote hits for bands like Three Dog Night. He wrote an old-fashioned love song. And as well as songs for the Carpenters and others with fellow musician Kenneth Asher, he wrote Rainbow Connection, as well as songs for films like Bugsie Malone and the music and lyrics to A Star is Born. Williams was actually a guest on The Muppet Show in 1976.

He said, I was singing a song called Sad Song with Ralph the Dog, playing the piano and a bunch of Muppets coming in to sing background. There's a moment at the end of the song when Ralph pats the piano and looks at me like, this is really sad, isn't it? He closes the lid of the piano and I reach down and I realized when I watched that, there is no Muppet performer under any of that. That moment is all about me being totally moved by this furry creature.

I realize that if I connect with the Muppets like that, I think maybe we all do. They have a deep spiritual sense about them as teachers and all, but it's so beautifully cloaked in their playfulness. so Henson asked Williams to write songs for the TV movie Emmett Otter's Jug Band Christmas. Oh, I love Emmett's Jug Band Christmas. Which is fun. It's so cute.

That was in 977 and of course again for the Muppet movie in 1978, Rainbow Connection, probably the most classic Muppet song of all time. And in the 80s, his success led to a hearty vodka and cocaine addiction for about a decade. He literally says he lost a decade of his life. Wow. to just being a party animal. And William said it was a dark, dark period of my life. I went from Johnny Carson's couch to peeking out the windows

through the Venetian blinds looking for the tree police. Very bad. Oh, no. Been to a awful cocaine bender. Very, very scary. I've only had to describe to me, but it sounds like, yeah, you look out the window a lot for. You don't trust anybody. The tree police.

A comment for me. That's very scary. I don't want the tree police to come for me. Thank you. After a brief stint in rehab in 1990, Williams was ready to get back to life as he knew it. And two months after that, Jim Henson dies. Brian Henson felt that in working on this film,

the Muppet movie contained the best music of the franchise up to that point. And therefore, even though the rumors were all over the place, everybody kind of looked at Williams as this drug-doubt crazy guy at this point, he decided to call up Williams and see if he'd be interested. And Williams said, when I got sober, the career I thought I had was pretty much gone. I just fell in love with recovery. I felt like that's all I wanted to do,

and I didn't know if I was ever going to write music again. And then I was asked to write the songs for the Muppet Christmas Carol. Every now and then, the universe will line up to do something at the right time in your life. I was longing to live life in a totally new way. One day at a time. Trusting what I needed was within me to get things done. And I'm sitting down to write these songs. I'm writing about Scrooge, a man who's learning to live life in a whole new way, who's having a spiritual awakening.

It's like, okay, now this is my inventory of dealing with where I am in my own life. That all that it's beautiful. How absolutely beautiful that he could see this as a gift to himself and his own recovery. And what an interesting perspective to write the music for a Christmas Carol of someone that is all also recently trying to get his life back and trying to change who he is and how he and how he is and writing and putting all of that emotion into Scrooge that it, that I, it has to be why this music strikes so hard. It is, it's not just, oh, this is just great music. It hits at a different level where it, it shakes me to my core of what this story is supposed to be saying. That you can choose again, that every day is a new day.

You can be a better person. That's really fascinating. And maybe it's obvious. I'm just dumb. I've never put that together. But it is such a beautiful metaphor for addiction, that story. Yeah. And then also, I think it's powerful as well for many people this year, especially today.

I think this year has been a lot about also the idea that maybe sometimes you just get so stuck in a way of being and thinking and doing. and you get a little lost, you know? And this year, I think a lot of people have been forced to stop and slow down and really reconsider who they are in this world, what value they have in this world, and what kind of person they really want to be

after just being on the rat race, the Rizzo race for so long, and then realize, like, whoa, wait, where are, let's take inventory here. And I think that is a lot of what this film is about, too, that, yeah, I love the idea that no matter how much, how much you can be,

one type of person, you can actually just decide one day to fucking not to stop, to stop doing the Coke and the vodka, to to stop just trying to make as much money as humanly possible in your lifetime and nothing else, you know? Well, and that's why when, and when Paul Williams says that part of the reason why he took it as well is that Scrooge's metamorphosis touches him because he could completely change his entire being in one night. And that took him 49 years to do And talking about his struggle with addiction problems

It's be totally read the interview That was in the Vulture magazine Yeah Yeah and I have a bunch of quotes from that But yes definitely we want to give props to this Vulture article about the music behind Muppet Christmas Carol Because it is such a powerful So beautiful

Vulture just has a lot of really great Deep Dives Yeah oh yeah It's really cool Yeah we've used them a lot for these. So for the opening number, I love this too.

Williams envisioned a grumpy scrooge trotting through the snowy town. So that's why you have that, you know, that like, a kind of plodding. Yeah. Doom do. Yeah.

It has that feeling of that and making these creatures that he passed colder as he passes them by. And he actually ended up taking a mystery novel out to a park by his place with a tape recorder in just a few pages in it

just hit him and he just started, these lyrics apparently just came to him very, very, like, divinely, which is very cool. I love it. Nailed down that whole track. Then he really goes ham on thankful heart as it got to the root of his feelings at the time. William said, with a thankful heart

with an endless joy. With a growing family of a girl and boy will be nephew, and he's to me. And there was a connectedness to the world around me is what William said, and a level of gratitude that to this day is probably one of the most powerful emotions I've ever experienced. It was fun watching this back to back with

the episode of Big Mouth. I don't know if you've gotten to it yet with the gratitude and of just reminding yourself to be grateful for things that are in your life. And especially this year, I think part of the reason why I cried through Mupp at Christmas Carol, of course, of all the many reasons, was thinking of remembering to take a step back and reminding yourself of what we can be thankful for. It is very difficult in how dark this time of our lives have been in many different ways. And this song just hits in a different way this year. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Frank Oz said, I think the songs are the key thing. Not unlike Paul's songs in Emmett Otter and the Muppet movie, it's those songs that give us the real depth. He has such an extraordinary heart. And how that

heart comes out and his music has always, always affected the quality and the warmth of the production. But again, there's also, there's the songs now I know I can see we're about to start talking about when love is gone, but in addition to when love is gone, being yanked from our clutches, there was also the songs, Room in Your Heart, which was sung by Bunsen and Beaker and Chairman of the Board sung by Sam Eagle and evil quibby bitch, Jeffrey Katzenberg, ends up taking out when love is gone, also looked at the other two songs and said, hasn't he been through enough this year?

Eh, we don't really need it. Um, do you know that quibby is to stand for the phrase quick bites? Yeah. Go fuck yourself, Jeffrey Katzenberg. Uh, but he took out all the songs, okay? Uh, yeah, so we're going to skip love is gone. And I just have a couple of quotes to summarize the whole thing. You're going to get jenkins.

You're about to get spanked again. The face that Jackie just made at you, you are dead mean. Mr. You will read the information about when love is gone or I'm just going to say or we're going to do what I did when I watched the movie yesterday, which I paused the movie, watch the video of when love is gone on YouTube and then I continue watching the movie. I refuse to watch without it. I also want to say thank you to everyone that says that you can watch the widescreen version

on the DVD. It does have the song. But then it's the. wide screen? Is that the wide screen? No, is it full screen. Whatever the one it is, you can't see all the fucking Muppets in it. And I want to see all the Muppets on the screen. All right?

I want to see those fucking Muppets on the fucking screen. I'd rather pause it and watch it on a separate screen to get when love is gone. You're being a real Moriah Carey right now. Oh, I feel like a Mariah right now. I feel like everyone knows what everyone knows and everybody knows that, of course, famously Disney executive Jeffrey Katsenberg

had Brian Henson cut when love is gone from the theatrical release feeling it was too quote sophisticated emotionally for children you bag of shit Have you ever been a triage? I hear they give you a bag of piss on your way out to throw it a homeless person

Fuck all that shit man That's what he goes to triage But either way Meredith Braun The actress who played Bell Who sang the song set, they thought it would slow down the action for five-year-olds. And it was quite a pivotal scene in retrospect. I didn't think about it until you brought it up. But yes, it is

literally the first time you see Scrooge actually showing some cracks in his icy exterior and even gives a little bit of voice. He sings a little bit of her song with her. This is like, it is a bit jarring. You don't really get that in the film as it is without the song. You don't get that transition point. It is a very pivotal point. Yes. Also, Braun said, Brian wrote to me, and he was hugely upset about it and massively apologetic.

He just made it very clear that it wasn't his choice. And then, of course, new developments have happened just this year. So back in a 2018 interview, Hinson revealed that they actually wanted to put the scene back in,

but, quote, Disney lost the negative. I made the movie with when love is gone in it, and then I removed it for the theatrical release because the studio wanted the movie shorter with the agreement that I would put it back in again for the video release.

They're still searching. I call them like every month to ask if they're still looking. One of these days, they'll find it. That's so weird to think about it. You can't like just back then, you couldn't just have it on like a hard drive somewhere. Right. It can't be backed up like eight different times. Because that's the thing.

They couldn't find the original film negative and the only way that they could find it, they found it, but it was in a four to three aspect ratio, which is why they couldn't put it in the long. version and the other version of the film because Brian Henson said when they tried cutting it into the Blu-ray movie, it looked terrible as well because you could tell we'd cut from high resolution to the original video release. So it never, it didn't look right. It didn't make sense until this year. They found it. They found holograms. They found holograms. No, but I do love how they did it too. Disney calls up Henson. They're like, hey, we have a 4K rematch.

where we need you to come in and check out for us and then surprised him. And it was there. I'm actually shocked. I just assumed they were not looking for and going like, yeah, we're looking through all the shelves there. We're looking for it. I think it makes me love Brian Henstein even more, though,

because I love the fact that he was like, we will find it. I don't care. I am the head of the Muppets. We will find it. And it took a long time. What did this? Is that almost 30 years?

it took to find it. Wow. But I hate you, Jeffrey Katzenberg. And I'm sure that you are a fine person in real life, but for this, I'll never forgive you. We don't know. He could be a piece of shit, quick bites. Yeah, he goes to triage. I have a couple of ending quotes, and that's about it.

Do you have anything else you want to spill beans-wise about the making of the film? I got a couple more beans. Just a couple more beans. Number one, hot take. I hate the Martina McBride of when love is gone at the end. Hot take number two. And I enjoy Martina McBride. That's hot take number two.

Hot take number three is that what's hard about all this, even though to me I love Muppet Christmas Carol, and to me this was the best Christmas movie to have ever been made, that this movie was actually a much bigger flop than Disney thought it would be. Right. But it wasn't its fault, though. It made $27 million, and the budget of the film was $12 million. but it's not its fault because it came out the same weekend as Home Alone 2 and Aladdin.

Why would you put it up against them? What? I don't know. It's competing with yourself much? Like, why didn't Aladdin come out? I would have thought Aladdin would have been a summer movie. Yeah, for sure. Also, we were the target audience for those movies.

And I distinctly remember Home Alone 2 and going to the movie theater with my grandmother and being obsessed with Home Alone 2 and with Aladdin. I had no time in my little pea brain to think about Muppets In the midst of that and the greatness that is Home Alone too When I saw Home Alone 2 with your grandmother I was like, who are you? Why are you sitting next to me? What state am I in? Did she kiss you? That's what everyone wants to know.

You wish. My grandma was pretty sexy. A little bit of hand stuff, a little bit of hand stuff. But either way, anything else? No, I just love it. You should totally go. Disney Plus, you have, you must, you must for me, watch Muppet Christmas Carol this year, because we did it. I know that we had nothing to do with finding when love is gone, but in my brain, we made it happen. It was our energies, and I want to thank you. Here's a quote from Paul Williams that

sums it up for him, and I have one other quote from Mr. Goals, who was a Muppeteer. I think the story is about redemption. It's about awakening, and it's about that recognition that there is some, I would have to say higher power that you can direct your words to. I think that just to say them aloud, you begin to affect a change. Let us always love each other, lead us to the light, and let us hear the voice

of reason singing in the night. Let us run from anger. Catch us if we fall. Teach us in our dreams. And please, yes, please, bless us one and all. I think that's a fair thing to ask for. Goals had this to say. I think it really catches

you off guard. I always find it emotional. The use of humor can really unlock emotion. If you're watching this picture and you're a little bit guarded and not quite feeling it, a joke, a little something absurd will throw you off guard and make you laugh. And the next thing you know, you're crying. Oh, you guys are both crying. I'm not. A little bit. I'm a little, it's weird. I'm just kind of like on an emotional ledge right now. And I don't know if it's the season. If it's because I watched this movie last night and it super made me cry. If it's, um, this fucking shitty year. Like, I don't know what it is, but it's a good time to watch stuff like this. I'm glad. There's something, this holiday season's hitting way harder than it ever has before in my life.

And yeah, so I think it's, it's like, it's about hubris. It's about laughing our asses off and crying our asses off right around now. I think everybody needs to. Yes, I think so too. We love you guys so much and thank you for joining us on this journey. I hope you have a beautiful holiday as much Jackie, your sister's dead to me, by the way. So you can, I'll write her up a fuck you card. Yes, you can send her an email at bad sister Zabrowski at gmail.com. It's weird she chose that. She kind of knows.

That's a weird email address for her. We love you guys. And we will talk to you guys. Thank you for joining us for this. And being with us all year. My name is Jackie Zabrowski. You can follow me on Instagram at Jack That Worm. My name's Holda McNeely.

I'm on Twitch.tv. forward slash Holdenaders. So you can check me in my tiny Fred every Wednesday, Tuesday, and Friday night. I put my tiny Fred in a sandwich and I attempt to eat it. And I never can. Check us on Patreon.com ford slash page seven podcast. Check me out at triage.

I'll be performing the ropes in the corner of the room. They light me on fire and I perform the ropes while you reach you. You're a not steak. We said see you later boy. Why you eat your not steak dinner, which is like this weird meat they just created for the restaurant. I hate L.A. What's going on, Natalie? What you got for me?

I just want everyone to know I never take the piss bag. I always take the piss bag. But that's just like more for me because I like to hear him slosh around in my back seat. Oh, that's cute. You can follow me, Athen Eddie Jean and follow us at page 7 LPN. We love you guys. We'll talk to you soon. Bye, everybody.

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