Page 7 - Pop History: The Trial of Kesha

Episode Date: April 28, 2021

We're joined by Brooke Rogers and Mackenzie Brennan (of XXceedingly Persuasive Podcast) to do a deep dive into the legal battles between Kesha and Dr. Luke.You can donate to the Kramer's memorial fund @MKZBrennan on Venmo. Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes of Page 7 ad-free.Start a free trial now on Apple Podcasts or by visiting siriusxm.com/podcastsplus. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Dr. Holden in the house. All right. How dare you? What have you done? All the crimes. I hope you're somewhere praying. I hope your soul is changing. Oh.

Changing. I hope you find your peace. What? Falling on your knees. Pray, yeah. Oh, my God. Is Kesha here? She's not because she's living in legal hell right now.

It's Mancha. Here to Man sing. Ketha's song. Oh, get out of here, man. The last thing we need in this episode. All right. Thank you guys so much for joining. Yes, we are all here together.

Remember the Lady Gaga trial episode? Lady Gaga. I would love a Lady Gaga one. Yeah, I know, the Britney series. Oh, God. Let's do Lady Gaga one in the future. I've been living in the world of what Gaga has said about Kesha. I had no idea.

Gaga was as huge of a figure in this whole fucking story. as she is. Who deposed Gaga thinking that she was going to be like a slam dunk against Keshah? I mean, like, oh yeah,

she loves sexists and she'll be our ace in the hole. Yes, we should also explain or introduce all these voices. So this is another exceedingly persuasive page seven pop history

crossover episode because we got to talk about the legals, y'all. And we need the smarts to talk to the dumb. There it is. Yes. Please.

I was so fun trying to explain share screen to McKinsey just now because I'm like, oh, it's so fun to feel like I'm a little, like, smarter than someone who's definitely smarter than me. No, we debunked the smarter theory swiftly. So, yeah, it's, I is Holden. We've got Jackie and Natalie from page seven pop history. Hello. And then we have McKenzie and Brooke from exceedingly persuasive.

Depending on which feed you're listening to, you're like, I already know this or I already know this other side of it. I bet we have a pretty good Ben diagram crossover of listeners. Cuccoco crossover. Hell yeah. And thank you guys so much for coming on to explain to us what the hell is going on with this Kesha trial. Because I will say, I'm so glad that we had made this decision before we did the last Kesha episode. Because in looking through all of what she has been through since the beginning of this trial against Dr. Luke, I still, I actually don't understand.

how it has lasted this long and how she keeps losing. I don't get it and I'm excited to talk to you guys about this today because it seems like the motherfucker is guilty and they should probably break the contracts. And there's, yeah, and there's also other side questions I have that I don't understand. Yeah, because now you have a couple different cases going. You have at least two states involved because it moved from California to New York. And this is actually a perfect time for me to say my uptop qualifier that the New York case is actually pending in the courthouse where I work. So I can't comment on pending litigation in that case.

It's so crazy. We didn't know that when we invite you to do this. I have to do it. I'm glad you found out. Kenzie, stop being such a lawyer about it. So my plan is I can look at facts and I can state the law and I can judge. You're juxtapose them together, and then you guys give me the conclusions. I think it'll be fairly straightforward.

I can say anything I want about it, right? Yeah. Okay. And then you just have to sit there and take it. But you're going to have to put it into tiny words, though, because half of this stuff that I've read over and over again, I'm like, I don't know what it means. What does it mean? Okay. I take objection to that because I did not know, by the way.

Oh, objection! Obdiction! Subjection! Cincinnati's a tiny gavel. So I did not know Jackie That you did the IB program Which I also did And Kesha also did

We're just like Kesha Oh my God We're all just like Kesha It was a nerdy program Designed for diplomats children To like not have to change their curriculum When they move different countries Which is why Jackie did it for sure

Yeah that is I am a My family are just filled with dignitaries I will say there's nothing dignified about anyone in my family please check out last podcast on the left where my brother is a host on there. Did he do IP2? He did. Hot damn.

All right. Oh, yeah. We're a little. I used to be smart and then I smoked the brain away. But that's why we have you guys here. And thank you so much, McKenzie and Brooke, for being here. I would love to go through. Thank you for having us.

It's going to be fun. Right? Well, fun is a relative to. We're going to learn a lot. Which, speaking of which, we should probably go ahead and say, Right at top. Okay, Mansha. What are you going to explain to all of us?

I would have mansplain the trigger warning. The trigger warning. I'm here to mansplained the trigger warning. So a trigger warning, by the way, y'all, is when, like, someone says something and it applies to someone's past. I'm going to explain something to you, mister. We just want to remind you that this is going to be a sensitive episode. Yes.

We will be discussing assault in many different ways. We will be talking about unjust trials as well. If you're triggered by that. There's not a trigger by that. So there's not that, yeah, that revenge story. It could be a pending story. This is true, this is true. It's a pending ending.

There's a lot of tough blows that happened throughout this story. They were unexpected in my research. I was like, seriously? Can we give this human a break for two seconds? Just for a second. Now, I would love to start up before we get into the trial with Holden's recap of where we are at. Because insanely enough, because in the last episode, we didn't talk about all of this stuff, this has been riddled in her career since the beginning. Dr. Luke is who got her to really give up everything, to drop out of high school, give it all a shot.

And he was a horrible mentor to her from the very start. Since she was like 17. Wait, so drop out of IV? Yeah, oh yeah. Drop out of the illustrious IV. Indeed. I know. She's no friend of mine.

Look at how far I've come with the IB program. Look at what I've built over here. Grabbing your breasts every Friday for 200 people. But I will see, I am covered in glitter just like Kesha, so maybe that's part of the IP program that we didn't know. Yeah, me too. So there you go. So Hold it, if you could please just give us a rundown of where we're starting this story.

Yeah, just like the real quick rundown, 2005, Keshah is 18 years old, gets a demo tape in the hands. Lucas Gottwald, aka Dr. Luke, who convinces her to move to Nashville, from Nashville to Los Angeles, signs her to a six-album deal, binding her to his recording and publishing companies. Kaz Money, you're going to hear some of these, right?

I think it's cash money. Cash money. Prescription songs you're going to hear. When we say prescription songs, that's referring to publishing company. At the time, Dr. Luke best known for producing Kelly Clarkson's Since you began! Which is fantastic.

And Kelly Clarkson's going to have a couple of fucking things to say about all Dr. Luke. Everybody hates working with him. Even other producers, except for one that I will get into when we talk about the celebrity testimonies. Interesting. Oh. And then back in 2012, Keshah put out her second full-length album, Studio album, Warrior. The first one was Animal and was supposed to do a collab with the Flaming Lips, which I lament because I wish I could have this album, Lipsia in 2013.

is around when things get a little rocky. That album's canceled, and the artists involved clearly don't want that to happen. There's even a moment, I think we'll talk about this later, where Keshe even says, like, I didn't really want to do Die Young, or I didn't want it to have those lyrics in it, which it makes me sad because I love how dark and fucked up that.

Pop songs are my favorite. Oh, isn't that the Sandy Hook? The Sandy Hook one. Yeah, it was like right out on the heels of that. It was released. I will say is one of my favorites of hers, but I also get the timing and everything. And still, if it was a good thing,

her wishes a little bit. Yeah, she said she didn't want to sing it. And in January of 2014, Ketcha checked into rehab for bulimia nervosa, and while there, she began working on her third studio album and got out two months later. So that's like the broad strokes, but we're going to like pull the carb all the way back to 2005 and talk about some. Sexual assault! Uh-oh, it is more fun when you say it like that.

I just got a thrill. Who's ready to talk about some upsetting things? Yes, this is when we get really upsetting immediately. So here we go. Let me just give the run down the broad strokes. We're going to try to keep it light. We're going to not go too dark and dirty. Yeah, we're going to get too crazy with it.

But I will say 2005, Keshe and Dr. Luke went to, by the way, we're going to have to remember to say allegedly a lot. Okay, so just remember about the whole allegedly. Allegedly. Yeah, we know he's very Sue happy. So we're going to pepper liberally with allegedly. He seems to really enjoy. as a hobby.

How many times did he sue her back? So Kesha and Dr. Luke allegedly, I don't know, I'll say it there, I guess, went to Nikki Hilton's birthday party at Paris Hilton's Hollywood Hills home. According to the lawsuit, Dr. Luke allegedly gave Kesha the date rape drug GHB, describing it to her as, quote, sober pills and took her back to his hotel room, allegedly, and raped her, quote, raped her while she was unconscious. That's from the lawsuit. Allegedly.

Yeah. The complaint. Wasn't his side of the story that he, that she got drunk and they went back to the hotel room? And then he basically says that like she did stay at his hotel, but she was just like sleeping in the other room while he was on the couch. So he admits that she was actually in his hotel room and that she did stay there that night. He said it was like a promising young woman kind of scenario. It's like, you didn't remember, but it was actually really innocent. Totally.

Totally. And even though the next. morning when Kesha is very openly saying how, and unfortunately, I do feel that if you have a vagina, you unfortunately may have felt this before, of knowing when a, something was put inside of you when you did not want it or were not ready for it. And that is something that she alleged the next morning was what she was experiencing. In fact, immediately she called her mom. Yes, she's very close to her mother. That's good that we have a, contemporaneous report that strengthens because even what you're saying, Jackie, is absolutely

true on a personal practical level. But if you're looking back at something and one person says one says the other, it's kind of a balance of evidence. So the contemporaneous report, even if it's to somebody close to her, it does tend to bolster the claim a little bit. So yes, her mother gets a call from her the next day and reported that Keisha said, I don't even I have to say allegedly here because this is her report. She reported that Keshe said, Mom, I don't know where I am, I think we had sex, I'm sore and sick, I don't know where my clothes are,

I think I need to go to the hospital, mom, I just want to sing, I don't want to be a rape case victim, I just want to get my music out, I didn't follow my instincts. It is interesting, and a lot of what I see when I'm reading about all of this is the idea of the good girl

versus the bad girl. And this started at the beginning of her career. Yes, it's exactly what we saw with Brittany Spears where they're like, oh, yes, the horrible comparisons of how it could be reminded of another pop star that it is down to the fact that still, to this day, it's like, well, look at her. Yeah. I mean, she's partying all the time.

She's wearing crazy makeup. And she's talking about, you know, drinking Jack Daniels when she's brushing her teeth. And it starts here. What did she expect? What did she expect? I actually personally, it was. was dosed with GHB before

and you also really know when it happens the next day because you you feel like you feel like you've been thrown off the side of a mountain like it doesn't feel like a hangover and it is the most bizarre

like horrifying I was very fortunately not assaulted but I woke up in a place that I had never seen before like I don't blackout and it was a it was a it was like waking I was in a spaceship and was dropped into somebody's home that I had never ever been before and and so you know if she woke up it wasn't yeah sober pills yeah it's the difference right so with GHB you are like functioning like you're fully I was out at a bar like for hours and met people and stuff and

If you're giving roofies, you kind of will, like, fall asleep almost. You're, like, incapacitated GHB, like, you're just like, you look like a functioning person. So that's, I think, the weird joke connection he made to sober pills. Uh-huh. Well, she was still up. She was doing stuff. And this is also in the same time when this is supposed to be her producer, this is supposed to be, she's very young. And allegedly, Dr. Luke would both.

and brag to Kesha about how he liked to take girls out on a first date, get them as drunk as possible, and fuck them in the ass. And these are the kind of things that a full-grown man is saying to an 18... You shouldn't say. Also, can we just say on a professional level?

Yeah. I know. I know we're always joshing about those kind of things. I mean, that's the kind of thing that when you're young, because I had an experience with a boss when I was 18, and he used to take my phone if I texted at work and look for naked.

photos on it and not get back. At the time, when you're 18 and you're kind of cool guy boss wants to be your friend, you're like, oh, geez, I guess I'm old now, I'm cool, he's my friend. And you know, I mean, obviously this is a little different because in the moment she knew it was wrong, but in terms of ramping up to that level of harassment and grooming somebody to be okay with that environment and why they don't say more. And also just trusting him to give her a pill. Even if she said okay to taking a pill from him that he clearly lied about what it was.

Allegedly. Allegedly. Allegedly. Being put in that circumstance at that age is really fucked up. Yeah. And he potentially was controlling or at least advising other things that she was consuming at the time. So you do have a kind of consistency like this is how we do a juice cleanse. This is what you eat at this time of day.

So there's kind of an atmosphere of trust. We don't want to forget he also controlled her weight very heavily. And it's also the idea that in the entertainment business, I would say as someone that works in the entertainment business, I can't speak for others on my own personal experience, is that it is the idea of you should just be happy that you're here. And that threat, living under the threat of trying to be creative and trying to just have fun, but under the. constant threat of I can end you any fucking second. And like you owe me. And that's not illegal. I don't know how it's not, but that kind of psychological torture is not illegal.

Or so says all of these trials that are about to start. And it's probably common. It's probably, again, I can't speak to it because I'm not in that industry, but I do picture things like strongly encouraged diets or, um, Image control, stylist choices, things like that are very common. And it is a cutthroat industry. So when somebody says, be grateful you're here and do everything to stay, there's kind of a spectrum of where that is true.

And then where it becomes, wait a second, now you're prescribing my meals. Right. I have been told to my face, you need to either lose 50 pounds or gain 50 pounds. Because you're ridiculous the way you are and I can't sell you. What the fuck does that supposed to mean? Go fuck yourself. And what do you do with that? Yeah.

What do you do with that? Oh, do you cry and cry and cry and binge drink for three weeks? Yeah, that's what you do. And guess what? I lost some weight. Are you happy, motherfucker? Yeah, I think that like our whole understanding and like the conversation on consent has evolved so much in the last few years.

And, you know, we saw Monica Lewinsky kind of get that whole story kind of get a different, a different spin on it where people were like, wow, it's actually really messed up that someone who, when she was so young, someone who had was a gatekeeper to her career and had so much power over her, convinced her to be in a sexual relationship with him. And she was actually the victim there and she wasn't a homewreck or whatever. And I think that there's a similar thing that's going on with Kesha where it's like not only with the alleged sexual assault, but with the way, with creative control over. her with certain bullying that we'll talk about later, you have to look at the power dynamic and the fact that he was gatekeeping her entire career, her access to money, her access, which, you know, is food, is housing, is security. And success.

I mean, you can even put it at a higher level. I want to do well. I want to be famous. I want to be great. Right. Yeah, but she was, he was her in. And I think there is a, there is, when you are in a situation like that, consent gets really muddy. in even like the best circumstances,

not even talking about a case like this, which is the way she reported it was clear sexual assault. Well, it also goes to show of how you can be so scared and told not to say anything because you want your career to go on because right after this is when all of this begins when she is featured,

she's in right round, the song that she is not building and made no money from. So at a time when she had no money in her account, count. Dr. Luke is the one that did that to her of already showing out the gate. What are you going to fucking do? I already said, it's like, okay, I'm doing all these. I can control all of these things. And he was successful. I mean, I don't think that that's a matter of opinion. We'll get into the public figure distinction later. That's weird.

A little more interpretive, I guess. But the fact is he did since you've been gone. If it were just that, and it wasn't just that, he did a lot of other songs. He worked with other artists. But if it had just been that, it's like, okay, this guy knows what he's doing. He can make me a star or he can decide not to. And I'm 18. Yeah. Right. A baby.

Yeah. And he's well aware of that. He wants to use that power dynamic for his own needs, obviously. Yeah. And that'll get interesting with the contract element too. Allegedly. Allegedly. It seems that he might have been aware of it.

It might appear to the court. So let's talk about this first lawsuit. I definitely want to spend more time on the later ones, but let's get through this in 2006. Kesha signs a management deal with DAS communications, and DAS claims to have found Kasha a deal at Warner Brothers. Then Keshah abruptly leaves her contract with DAS and goes back to Dr. Luke, which kind of screams controlling behavior.

Oh, did she break that contract? It says all I saw in my, and the verbiage was Kesha abruptly leaves her contract, but that could be... It sounds to see that being something that folks might use as evidence later. If she did break that one, say she has a pattern, which not to speak to the merits of it. Right, right, right, right. According to her mother, Keshah told her that, quote, Dr. Luke just called me and I have 24 hours to fire my lawyer and my managers and go back with him. Anytime I get a contract, he's going to come forward and basically say he owns me,

what do I do? So I guess that answers your question of how that went down. DAS keeps assisting Keshah though. Like I guess maybe she just kind of has DAS in the pocket. Except they, don't they fuck her over after this? Well, so yeah. So Keshah from this point forward is still kind of working with DAS, probably on the download from Dr.

Luke, despite the termination of the contract, Keshah then gets featured on that right round song. And then her big breakthrough hit with TikTok and the release of her first album, Animal, happens. Then in 2010, DAS sues Keshah for $14 million in unpaid commissions. On work, the company claims it got Keshah after they ended the contract and also sues Dr. Luke for $12 million for allegedly interfering in their partnership with Kesh. So maybe they weren't helping her.

They were using her? Maybe. Yeah, I don't think necessarily DAS is any better, but it doesn't, yeah, but either way. Like that they thought there was an understanding that they would be compensated for whatever they were. doing. Right, right, right. Managers of the... I mean, yeah.

If she had no one really helping her with representation, they probably also just took advantage of her in a way. This is what sucks. And a less personal way, more of a regular old corporate way. In show business, you are desperate

until you don't have to be anymore. And so it gets you in these really shitty, sticky situations, I feel like. I've done so many things that now I look back and like, why did I put myself into that situation? I never would have it got out in the middle of nowhere to do, you know what I mean? Like, it's so many things where you're just like, why did I, why would I say yes or feel

bad for saying no? But until you have any amount of work, like it just kind of happens. All of a sudden you have all this work. But until then, you're just like, I'll do anything. I just want to be a star. And I think that there is a level of earning your place and being committed to doing things like, you know, shadowing somebody or like learning from somebody in a way where you're, like, maybe you're on set, but you're not getting like a full rate if it's helping you.

But there's, it's a really hard, it's a blurry line and it gets crossed all the time. And it's really hard to tell young people in the industry how to distinguish which is which. Yeah. And sometimes it's even hard to tell yourself because some. It's fluid. You don't need them. They need you. And that's impossible though to convince yourself when you're fucking sleeping like on a couch.

Absolutely. And especially if the people, your mentors around you and stuff, I've had a lot of this with the stunt community where they're helping you in a way, but then sometimes they take that to a level of ownership, which we see here. The question of what is exploitation versus what is paying your dues? What is actually like getting your foot in the door versus like what is people taking advantage of you? That line is really thin and blurry. Very blurry. And the nature of the beast is that all of these people are very, very young because that's what consumers slash the industry have decided.

It's hot. Well, it's also the easiest market to take advantage of. Yeah. No, that's true, too. So everybody wins on the power side. And also outside of just the idea of being in the entertainment business, it's like, how many people do you know that aren't involved in the entertainment business that have been assaulted and never told anyone? Yeah. Because the system is flawed.

Because there's nowhere for people to go. That quote I just read, right? Yeah. And she even said, I recently had signed my life away to this man. Yeah. And I was embarrassed and terrified and ashamed and sick and confused because it's also the idea of what did I just do. And this is who I'm in, you know, proverbial bed with. Now I've just signed my life over to this person.

By the way, Jackie, I just want to formally apologize for when I told you you either needed to gain or lose weight. You need to get out of my life, manchial. This is an April sales issue. Get out of here. Dr. Holden. So according to the- Jackie, you're perfect. According to the 2011 deposition, Kesha allegedly alerted people as far back as 2005 that Dr. Luke, quote, engaged in a certain unethical and unlawful actions against her and that she did not want Gottwald to be part of her career going forward.

She also in this case, this is all just stuff that they're going to use later in the other case. She also in this case testified under oath that, quote, Dr. Luke never made sexual advances at me or gave her drugs and forced sex on her. and this is going to be the like lynch pin for Dr. Luke's. But that's 2011 that she's saying that under oath. So even if you do look at the fact that a lot of victims, and this is a strict statement on victimology, that oftentimes if they are still under somebody's control, they aren't going to disclose that.

It's a very intentional and long decision to disclose that sort of thing. So not necessarily in a deposition on another case. Are you going to admit criminal conduct? But even all that aside with victim behavior, and a lot of misconceptions that the public has about that, it's possible that certain things happened after this deposition. Right. And also, lawyers for Keshe during this have argued that Luke had threatened her safety and livelihood on multiple times for her to not say the truth as well.

Meanwhile, her mom is there saying, she called me right after it happened. So even in that try, or in that deposition, or I don't know how far it got, but whatever sworn statements, it sounds like people are raising questions. There was some coercion going on, which is the same problem because he has this power dynamic over her. And coercion can be grounds to void a contract, which will become relevant later. And don't worry, Peeby. Ketch's mom's also going to get sued several times. Peeb? Oh, yeah, Peebee.

Peebee. Like peanut butter, but spelled. P-E-B. Keshe and P-B. Eventually, so the outcome of this is that this is Kesh's first L, by the way, of our story, Kesh's ordered to pay a little over

half the money D-A-S was suing her for. How much is it? She was sued for $14 million. And so, yeah, like $8 million. And this is also, besides all of the

control when it comes to her body. On top of all of this, he completely controls her creative process as well. And throughout all of this, there are multiple quotes at the time of all of this where she's like, I'm writing things that I don't want to write. I don't, she wanted to write things that were more meaningful for her, but essentially over and over again, allegedly, Dr. Luke told her that is not what she is. She is a pop star. She is to write fluff. She is to talk about, I am young and not giving a fuck. That is what she's supposed to do.

Nothing else. And ironically, that created the she's asking for it persona that he went on to. It also works out conveniently for him. Very interesting. It was also just like on a side note what we touched on last time. The reason I didn't really care for at the time is she was not allowed to sing. She has a beautiful, amazing voice and it was just autotune, autotune, auditune. Because he just wanted her to do these like sort of club bops that.

he wouldn't let her sing on. And she has like a singer-songwriter country and rock and roll background for sure, which she ends up infusing more into later albums. Well, now with her current work is way more country. And I love it. It's awesome. I got to say I love TikTok too. I also.

I love TikTok too. Yeah, I said it might be one of the best pop songs ever. Dr. Luke does know how to. He knows how to churn up. Since you've gone is an amazing album. It's an amazing fucking album. So here's some things just leading up to the trial. then we're going to get into the trial

and I'm probably going to get a lot more quiet. But just a couple, just some lead-up stuff. So in 2011, Dr. Luke co-found his own imprint label as under Sony called, at Sony, called Kimosabi and is made CEO. Keshe's deal is moved over to Kimosabi. It's a little appropriating with... I was going to say, like,

the gold is a white band to get by recording... Kemosabi records. We didn't mix it last week, and I'm glad we're doing it. doing it this time because I agree. He's a doctor. He's appropriating culture. Yeah, okay. You got to sprinkle just a dash of racism into the story. Yeah.

Oh, don't worry too. The doctor thing was an S&L thing, apparently, that he got because he was also everybody's drug dealer. But either way, we'll get to that. It is really funny to me. Sorry, it is really funny. Kemosabi means idiot in Apache. I don't know if he knew that or not, but it's funny. Yeah. I wouldn't be surprised me as a couple of tribal tattoos. All right.

Oh, yeah. According to a New Yorker profile on Dr. Luke, quote, relations reportedly became strained last year, in quote, between him and Keshah. Then the lead single, Dai Young, was released 2012. It was abandoned by the radio after, it was actually Newtown, the Newtown Elementary School. That's Sandy Hook.

That is, Sandy Hook. Oh, okay, my bad. I didn't realize that. Several names. On December 12th of that year, it was pulled from radios. Keshah, after receiving a lot of hate online, tweeted on December 18th, quote, I understand, I did not want to sing those lyrics,

and I was forced to. She later deletes this. Also from the New Yorker profile, there's this little bit. Quote, if one examines Gottwold's metamorphosis from Lucas to Kaz to Dr. Luke, the progress is toward increasing control over the process of creating and selling music. But to have real control, to be more than the appetizer maker to the queen, Dr. Luke needs to discover and develop his own superstars so that he can participate in every aspect of their career. That's what he hoped to do with Kesha, but things weren't going. exactly as planned, end quote.

Just interesting eye and- Yeah. If you're that good and you trust your own vision that much, do it yourself. Yeah, but I think he seems to always want to be working with these women in order to do it instead. Oh. That's not a lot. That's actually just waiting. I wonder what he has in mind there.

An online petition. So this is the first time fans actually start to get concerned with Catcher, which is kind of Are you mean the animals? Her animals and the little monsters too probably. Oh, yeah. Rise up. An online petition is set up by a fan to, quote, let Keshah have creative freedom in which the fan writes, in the first season of My Crazy Beautiful Life while showing the creative

process behind Warrior, Keshah, My Crazy Beautiful Life MTV little mini documentary series about Ketcha. Keshah is shown recording the track Machine Gun Love, which was later turned down by the album's executive producers for it being too different and not being a sound that she's known for. Kesha makes it clear that her producer, Dr. Luke, is stunting her from growing as an artist by making her sing the same generic, predictable, recycled pop song. Kesha also confesses that she has no say whatsoever in what makes the album, not to mention what's released as a single, which every artist should have a say in, which I just think is

fascinating that fans already know something's up in 2011. Yes. You know, three years before her breakdown before the trial. The case, everything. It almost stands apart from the Kesha specific issues because this is something that you here come up with a lot of folks. I mean, Taylor Swift, I know Brooke and I have talked a little bit about the parallels. Oh, I'll talk about Taylor Swift for 45 fucking more minutes.

Yeah, absolutely. We just opened up a terrible, terrible vault. Oh, my God. We're doing a two-parter on her, so don't worry about it. We'll get into it. Oh, I'm trying to get a three-partner gone, but we'll see what happens. It's a similar issue, and I think the intellectual property world. and the music industry are having a lot of trouble with this,

and it might end up being something to grapple with, like, what do producers get to control who owns an artist's art? Because in other industries, contracts and the justness of a contract has to consider whether somebody is able to work. So if you have, like, say, a veterinarian who leaves a clinic and goes and starts another one. You can't have a non-competition clause that's so limiting that they would have to move their family, get a whole new body of clients, move somewhere less populous, because people have a right to work. They can only treat drafts. Yeah, right. Like there's a balancing that goes on

in courts when those kind of contracts are challenged to see what's a reasonable ask and how much are we limiting the employee? And that is not something that I've really heard. heard considered in cases like this in the same way if somebody does not have an option to work except under the thumb of somebody that they're saying is abusive. And those claims very rarely get to the point of litigation. So they are rare. They're statistically rare. What's the pattern here? It's like we look at Brittany, they look at Taylor Swift, we look at cash out, we look at so many other people in the industry who this often comes up with. And the pattern is that they are women who get into the industry at a very young age.

They're trying to break in. They get signed to these contracts. Way too many albums. Way too many albums. Like I would never commit to that many. The expectation for the workload is so high. Yeah, yeah. And Mariah Carey, like you said in the last episode,

she was like, all right, then we're going to be in the studio of 24-7. I'm banging these sameies out. Get it done and move on. I also like just considering how miserable it must be for an artist to, when they're on tour, have to. like sing over and over and over again every night these songs that they hate. Like it must be like really debilitating creatively to like have to go up. Yeah.

You know, for the 300th time. Yeah. Just repeatedly sing these songs that they had very little creative control over that doesn't feel like they're singing with their own voice. And it just, it must be miserable. I mean, I think that's where a lot of the meltdowns come from because you're physically being forced to use your body to do something you don't want to do. Or not work.

Seems like a nightmare. Right. That's your choice. So you either do that or you have no job and the public forgets about you gladly, quickly. Yeah. So what do you do? And we're going to see a bunch of these celebrities, including Taylor Swift, who donate $250,000 to her legal fee issue, whatever. And a bunch more speak out, all who seem to have come from a very similar background of getting really famous, really young and getting tied to these things probably, which years later they regret.

It seems like. you shouldn't be allowed to make an 18-year-old sign a contract that binds you to them for 10 years. It just seems I know. It's such a tough cutoff because it's like you can't do that with a 17-year-old. Yeah. Right. And yet they one day passes and all of a sudden they are competent to sign their life over for the next decade. Yeah.

It's very similar to the conversation around student loans, which is funny because now we're having this nationwide, you know, conversation about 18-year-olds shouldn't be able to sign these student loan. agreements that are like insane and obviously exploitative. But then what's the alternative? But then if you're in the entertainment, right, but if you're in the entertainment industry, that's not even considered. And we know, during our Brittany episode, we talked about the moral consideration when it comes to like children working in the industry. I think it's like, no one's thinking about because it's like, oh, why would we feel bad

for these huge superstars? I think that's a big part of it. It's like, why are they complaining? Shut the fuck up. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, I'm sorry for Taylor Swift. Yeah, right. Right, right. That kind of mindset. And it's like, whatever. She's perfect. She's like the best person who ever lived. Oh, my God. I don't even understand it. In response to the petition. Open the box here. In response to the petition, when asked about it by Rolling Stone, Keshire responded, I feel like my fans are really protective of me. They just want to see me grow as an artist, which I agree with. Hopefully in the future, I'll be in a position where I can put out a ballad or a more vulnerable song. So, again, speaking towards being constrained. Maybe someday. Yeah, exactly, right?

I like. And after that they follow up with asking if she has any creative control at the time. And she responds, not really. What's been put out as singles have just perpetuated a particular image that may or may not be entirely accurate. I'd like to show the world other sides of my personality. I don't want to just continue putting out the same song and becoming a parody of myself. I have so much more to offer than that. And I can't wait till the world really gets to hear that on the radio. So very apparent she's being held back. So now we get to the law. What year is this? I'm sorry. That was back, and we're going to cut to 2014. That was, I think, back in 2011.

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I mean, this is very pretty clear and present. Almost as soon as she was known. Yeah. This became an issue. Like, essentially after she got animal out, and then all of a sudden it's just like, now keep doing this one thing.

So that was the thing is because the, you know, we just mentioned of we see these pop stars and it's like, oh, how do I feel bad for you? Kesha wasn't even able to get to the point of a Britney Spears. Yeah. She wasn't even able to get to the Mariah Carey part of her career because she was stunted. This is the thing is that because she was the bad girl and because she wasn't doing what she was told from the fucking get-go. And it does make me love her even more than I did before all of this. Sadly, it's probably partly because her mom wasn't willing to like take her to that level of exploitation like Britney's parents were. Yeah, she was protective.

Keshe 22 kind of. Because also Pee-B was a part of, she was a songwriter and was a musician. She helped her write Stephen at the age of 16. So she was a part of the business. I love that one. Yeah. So she was a part of the business and knew what it could do. And yet still she couldn't shield Kesha from any of this.

And now we'll find out, cut to 2014, where she's put into a rehab, where she chooses, she checks into a Chicago rehab facility for an eating disorder. and even according to the doctors that she was seeing, they said, beyond the physical and emotional wounds, Dr. Luke's abuse had caused Ms. Sebert to suffer from bulimia nervosa. Doctors at the facility told Ms. Seabert and her family that her blood pressure and sodium levels were similar to levels found in patients following a heart attack or stroke.

Doctors found that Ms. Seabert suffered from psychological effects caused by Dr. Luke's abuse, including severe depression, post-traumatic stress, social isolation and panic attacks. The psychological effects of the repeated abuse suffered were continuous and ongoing, as Ms. Siebert was constantly reminded of the abuse by having to continue to be around Dr. Luke and his unrelenting emotional and psychological abuse. How I don't understand. That's very powerful evidence if it got into a proceeding.

But then this is a thing. So how can she still be losing when you have doctors that worked with her able to say, no, this man psychologically abused her. Is it because there's no proof? Or did it maybe not make it in? Right. I'm wondering, because it would be the kind of

non-experts and there are kind of weird qualifications that you have to meet to qualify as an expert. So it's possible that her own treating physicians didn't want to testify as experts either for their own reasons or because they felt that it would violate confidences by opening the door there.

Or it's possible that there was some sort of behind the scenes conversation about whether they were entitled to make that causal link even with what they were party to. But I hope that something of that caliber made it in because if her treating physicians at the time said that there are a few things that are going to be as powerful as a contemporaneous treating physician who treated you for that reason. saying that, hey, we witnessed these effects and this is what we determined the cause was. And we actually have evidence like that the specifics of how Dr. Luke put pressure on her about her weight and her body because during one of the trials, Keshe's team released emails

from Dr. Luke to Kesha's manager that we're complaining about Kesha violating her quote unquote juice fast which juice fasts are bullshit. I don't know who needs to hear this and among our varied listeners

juice fasting is not it's not good for your body don't do that. No it's definitely your food. You're definitely skating the line of an eating disorder by just doing that. Absolutely and it's like You know, it's like whether it's a, you know, three-day juice fast or longer than that. It is depriving your body of nutrients.

What happens when she's looking like a refrigerator, Brooke? She looks like a refrigerator. That's what Dr. Luke said. I don't even know what that means. I don't understand that. She looks like a refrigerator. She's a brick. No.

House. That angered me so much because if you look at photos of Kesha, Kesha has always been completely normal. Tiny. Yeah. She just doesn't look ridiculous, you know, like ridiculously thin. The pressure that was put on women, especially women in the entertainment industry, in the early 2000s, and since, you know, you have all worked in the entertainment industry, you can probably speak to this more,

but it not only affected those women, but it also affected young women and girls who looked to those people as, like, the pinnacle of beauty, and they are literally starving themselves in order to look like that, and you don't know that, You think they naturally look like that. And so he sent an email to her manager complaining that she violated her juice fast by eating turkey and drinking a diet soda. And then he said in an email that A-list songwriters and producers do not want to work with her because of her weight, which even if that is true, and I very much suspect that that's not the case. I think that he was using that as a manipulation tactic, which is just incredibly cruel on its face. but also I don't think, yeah, I don't think that's true at all. But you imagine what he's going to argue or somebody in his position would argue I imagine

is that it is an industry that is universally very judgmental, unrealistic standards. So he was doing it to help her. Or that it came from other sources that she was seeing her competitors. Yeah, and certainly 10 years ago it would have been more acceptable for people to say that to a young girl. Because everything's changing as we're going. Yeah. Yeah.

But I think that industry has not fully caught up even still. Those emails were sent in 2012 and she entered rehab for the eating disorder in 2014. So you could draw a straight line there between the behavior that we know that he was inflicting on her with like the way that he was talking to her because it's literally on record. And the effects of that where she had to tie it to a timeline. Yeah, absolutely. Be treated for this eating disorder, which is, I can't imagine how psychologically crippling that is to have that, to have, you know, I think that a lot of us struggle with eating disorders at one point or another, and it is very, very heavy to deal with. And to have that over several years and have your career be dependent on that and not only have your inner voice telling you that there's a problem with you, but someone as important as the producer who holds the key to your career telling you that, just must have been. been debilitating. Because this is also at the same time. So now that we're into the lawsuit, this is the real

beginning of him creating his campaign that she's a fucking liar. That everything that she is saying is for attention, everything she is doing is for her career, and that everything she says is a lie. And this is the beginning. It's like, can you also imagine that

this person that has owned you and controlled you all of this time is now also publicly, and he has tied with the media because it's crazy in doing a lot of this research, you can see the publications that work with Sony that

are saying things. Well, and Sony backs them. And Sony backs him. So he is, oh, interesting, isn't he a public figure? He's a figure who has interacted with publications before. Interesting that I read. I'm like, but that's not true. What they're writing isn't true. And

how is he getting it? He has a relationship with publications. Yeah. It seems. So, so So Kesha leaves rehab. She removes the dollar sign from her name saying, I realized that I was part of the facade. She also even added that dollar sign ironically.

She was broke at the time when she did it. I thought it was funny. I know. I liked it. I like it. Very endearing. On October 14th, she files the civil lawsuit against Lucas, Sebastian, Kotafolt for infliction of emotional distress,

gender-based hate crimes, and employment discrimination. The suit mentions the Nikki Hilton Party, incident that we mentioned before with the date rape drugs, as well as another situation in which he, quote, violently thrashed his arms at her, end quote, which led her to run barefoot down the Pacific Coast Highway to get away from him. The suit goes on.

I just picture I'm looking like such an idiot. Like, thrash his arms is like that's such a weird. Yeah, yeah. Just kind of like, yeah, like play fighting is what it sounds like but I'm sure it was worse than that. Yeah, he sounds like a tool. Right. Whoop, whoop, boop, boop.

I imagine he's going nuts. He did it. The suit goes on to speak of Dr. Luke's fat shaming and other forms of emotional and psychological abuse that led to her, quote, severe depression, post-traumatic stress, social isolation, and panic attacks, end quote. The suit requests a release from her deal with Dr. Luke, claiming these alleged actions were a breach of her contract. However, no criminal charges were filed, which is interesting to me a little bit. Yes, so this is a civil suit, and that's very worth noting because criminal behavior is easier to use as leverage to get out of contract, just up at the top before we talk about the actual charges.

And we're not going to go too deep into allegations because it's, I think that there's a solid record of alleged transgressions. Yeah. So we don't want to traumatize anybody too much. We're just kind of going to go from there. But how much was left on the contract at the time that she initially sued? Three more albums? Yes.

Yes. Or more. Four. Four albums. Well, the article I read was written in 2016, so it would make sense that maybe it was four, and at the time she had three more albums. So it wasn't a time-based thing, it was a content-based thing. Allegedly, we don't know. I'm just saying we don't know.

Well, like, all the contract times were probably out. Like, that's probably not. But it was based on a number of albums that she had to produce. But also, she would financially benefit from. Yeah, yeah. And part of this, and they learned from the Mariah Careys, is that it wasn't that she could put all of the albums. out in one year. That it was, there was time-based,

there was amount, but only that she was allowed to put out, so I believe that it was one album a year. Prince did that too, right? So even though it wasn't time-based, it was. It's kind of owning her for her hot young years. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, totally. And that is also the thing that kept coming up

was that a lot of times, and I think that it is good to remember, that you should be able to renegotiate your contract. From at least a year out, depending on the contract, you have to read through the contracts you're signing, regardless of what age you are, regardless of you must look into it or have somebody. With a representative, I would get representation.

Yeah, and that's, I mean, that's the big challenge, though, at that age. You are, you are so. No, no, no, no, no, I know that. No, for sure. I know you're not saying that at all. But we learn from it. It's hard for somebody at that age and in that place with so few options for protection.

And he's not telling her to do it. Right. And you're getting pressured. You're getting sort of like those, you better figure this out, you know. This is going to be moved on to the next chick. Tomorrow. Yeah. Yeah.

And what do you do at that time? You just go, he seems like he cares. Okay. I guess so. I'm still terrible at rating contracts. Oh, I don't. I'm saying this. And I don't.

I don't read the... You know, I'm not signing away something of this magnitude, so I'd say that there's kind of a risk benefit of making that choice. But what I would advise in a very general sense, not specific to this case or anybody else's, is if you're signing away something of any magnitude, whether it be in volume of albums or years that you're bound, or you're a teenager still or in your early 20s,

you haven't done this a lot, lawyers usually work on an hourly rate. Honestly, just Google somebody who says that they're an entertainment or a contract lawyer, whatever the industry be, and say, I can only afford you for an hour. Quickly scan this. At the very least, give me an hour's worth of your time. You know, it's a couple hundred bucks. Yeah.

That's off the top, but it could save you a lot of pain. Yeah, someone who hasn't read the terms of service on anything for the last decade, If it's anything that, like, is going to tie you to someone, if it's a prenuptual agreement, if it's an employment contract, if it's a lease, anything like that, you read, you get a lawyer to read the five print 100%. And get that pre-up, y'all. Get a pre-nup. Whoa. I have a proud divorcee who had a very painless divorce because of a pre-up that I was in. I will say, though, if you're working with a huge entity, they will, they will try every time.

trick in the book, including like Henry and I had been working on a project with a television network that we had lawyers go over for weeks. And there was still something hidden in it that we did not find until we started shooting. And we had to, we had to like cut ties and like lose all this money with them because they had hidden something so deeply that a bunch of lawyers who were trying to help us did not find in the contract. And a lot of times, the people drafting these contracts for the industries are folks who know where the law has not been decided on certain issues. So if you, for example, found something like that, they would know that the onus is on you to challenge it in court. Yeah. And they know they've probably weighed the

case law so far that they say this will probably end in our favor. And if not, there will be a lot of litigation. So it'll bankrupt you and no skin off our nose. So it's not a perfect defense. You're absolutely right because oftentimes, yeah, they can afford better lawyers than anybody. And they're trying to fuck you over. They want to fuck you over. They're trying to win. Yeah, they're trying to win for themselves. They're trying to take every last dime they can out of you. Just remember that. Yeah. And so there's also a contract principle that is worth remembering as we go through this that, If there is a gross imbalance of bargaining power, and this is going to be one of those things that you're like, what, qualifies as imbalance?

So subjective. Yeah. It's so subjective. Yeah. But if there is something, and this actually came up in a Phil Spector music rights case, I think, with one of the Ronnettes. But if there is a gross difference in legal representation, in financial power, in experience in the industry, things like that, that can be grounds to avoid a contract if you can show that there was such an imbalance.

But obviously for cases like you're describing Natalie, that doesn't qualify. Even though on a pedestrian level, it's like, okay. It seems like it would be obvious. And that's what's so frustrating about the picture trial. Yeah. It's because, you know, as we're talking about this, it's like it seems so clear that emotional abuse was taking place. It seems so clear that there was a gross imbalance of power. How is she losing cases?

Yeah, yeah. They look at industry standards. And so if you're looking at the music industry or the entertainment industry, what's normal? Right. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And also, it's the proof. It's the proof of backing up the claims that I think that that was the issue in the very top of all of these lawsuits is that even his team said every rape is not a gender-motivated hate.

Yeah. I wanted to get to that. We're going to get to that later, but holy shit. That was fucking crazy. Boy, did I have to hush? Did you think it was cool? Were you like, wow, that's awesome? I love that one.

I wanted to be like, I'm not reading this, right? Like, I have to ask McKinsey and Brooke because I think that I'm just misreading this, what sounds like a heinously fucked up thing to say in a court of law. But regardless. It's so often that, yeah, the quote from the judge, who by the way, this judge in question, we'll get to the injunction later, but she later on denies Kesha an injunction against Sony. This judge in question was married to a lawyer

who worked for the firm that was representing Sony, which just to me seems like obvious misconduct. I know. How is that legal, though? How is that legal? It's crazy. So the connection is not direct enough for professional responsibility to say that it's automatic misconduct.

And I'll put the caveat up top that if you can show that there is something more than just the, like, the nature of the relationship, that doesn't foreclose, you know, somebody being disqualified if you can show that. If you make some sort of professional conduct complaint, if you made a motion to change judges, I don't know if anyone did with that basis. But usually what is required. is some sort of like direct, like the direct attorney who is on some party side is also presiding over this or is like that it was Sony and it was the spouse and the lawyer at Sony wasn't related to this case. It was just like their colleagues potentially. You think of how

much control you have over your colleagues' personal decisions and how much that would influence your outlook, you know. I feel like people have recused themselves for less, though. That's all I'll say about that. For sure. She probably should have recused herself. Yeah, it seems like it's not that far of a connection. It seems like a kind of a close connection.

It's literally in bed with the enemy. I'm sorry? You're literally sleeping with the enemy. That's, anyway. It's closer than any of us would have a connection to that person. But in terms of what is automatically disqualified, it doesn't fall in that category. I don't know if anyone made a complaint. It would be interesting to know if they did and how...

I didn't see. When I looked into it, I didn't see that they had. Because that would kind of be the onus is on the parties then to be like, hey, I have a problem with this. And then you risk... Flag on the field. Yeah. I have a problem with this.

Yeah. Yeah. So... All right. Let's get into the countersuit. Luke then files a counter suit in New York against Ketha and her mother, Peebee, as well as manager Jack Rovner for defamation. Here he denies all.

allegations in the Keshe lawsuit claiming it is a ploy to extort him citing Kesh's testimony in 2011 as his proof. And that was the testimony where she said that he had never, yet that he had never assaulted. Yes. Which is really, it's potentially very damning because it's a sworn statement and how frequently do you get to introduce evidence that somebody said under oath that something didn't happen. Yeah.

That said, and I'm not going to give my opinion on this, but I'll let you guys do that. I don't know that I have ever heard of somebody making a rate claim as a basis to get out of a contract like that as a strategy for contractual interactions. It seems like that would be a bad choice because look at what's happened. It doesn't seem like that's like an easy route out of a fucking contract. No, in fact, that's actually interesting because later on when Lady Gaga goes on the stand to, protect Kesha, that's actually what she brings up. She said, why on earth would this girl tell the entire world this happened? Why on earth?

Do you know what it's like for survivors? Do you know what it's like to tell people? Don't you roll your eyes at me? You should be ashamed of yourself. And I love it. That's what you fucking said on the stand. I love that she said that to his little. Because also the fucking audacity to roll your eyes at that statement.

Yeah. At the lady gaga. I think gaga herself. Her initial suit was not a contest of the contract. It was these charges. And I've never heard of that being a reason for people to bring sex crime charges. I haven't heard of that as a successful strategy for getting out of contracts on its own. That it's like I'm going to contrive this criminal activity, file a civil suit,

allege all these specific incidents just in case it does happen to help me get out of the contract which it seems to me there was not that much that made the contract against her interests except for interacting with him Right Like otherwise it seems like why was there an objection

except that she had an issue with this person I also want to point out that when Gaga was being deposed in addition to that incredible, like, it makes me proud to be a Gaga fan that she just, like, completely raped under this lawyer and was like, don't you roll your eyes at me? Don't you give me that look? By the way, she's also a gifted youth, Lady Gaga.

You know, they're sprinkled throughout the universe. But Lady Gaga actually talked about when Keshah told her about the alleged rape, and Gaga said, what we discussed was, and what I have a call was her immense sad, and depression and fear. She was visibly very different when I had seen her than before. And I can't say specifically what we spoke about. I just recall it was emotional and I wanted to be there for her.

And I think that's like, it's similar to Kasha telling her mom, Peevy, about the assault, which is it does bring another person in who she had told before all this took place, that she had talked to her about it. So it's kind of laying these, it's these little breadcrumbs, right? Throughout this, throughout this trial of this timeline. She told her mom, she talked to Gaga about it. Gaga found her story to be believable, things like that that do actually build this case against Dr. Luke, or presumably to a reasonable person, to reasonable people like us, we're all very reasonable.

It would seem like this would be convincing case. Well, speaking of PV, later in October 2014, he files a separate defamation lawsuit against Ketch's mother in Tennessee, where she lives in case she tries to claim he can't file suit against her in New York. Kesh's mother countersues Luke in December of that year, claiming he tormented and abused her with his alleged actions against Kesh in previous years. And in this lawsuit, she claims Luke dealt drugs to entertainers, which is how he got the doctor moniker while playing guitar at S&L.

And she also claimed that Dr. Luke allegedly bragged in the past about getting girls drunk on the date and then doing the F and the A, which I guess he thought was a fun thing to say. First of all, it makes so much sense to me. Of course, you would change your name to Dr. Luke when your real name is, when your real name is Lucas Sebastian Gutwald, which sounds like someone that Spider-Man would tie up and hang off the Empire State Building. Like, it's literally a villain. And it's just like, yeah, you don't want to go around with a name like Lucas Sebastian Gutwald in your life.

So you're like, I'm Dr. Luke. It's cute and quirky. You can trust me. I'm a doctor. My name is to be Dracula. Neely and I changed it to Holden's. Oh, God. I also misrepresenting

the Polish people, Jackie. How do you feel about that? Honestly, it's fine. I don't want him. I don't want him. He can go. Go be somebody else. I'm fine. I'll turn to do a bat and I'll fly away.

Now, I do find it interesting that he, so he not only countersues, but he's essentially like what now is happening is that they're halting the California lawsuit because everything is going on in New York. Now, this does remind me of,

I don't know if this is related, but I would assume that it would be. Like, you know when in kidnapping cases, it's much more difficult to try and get a kid back if they take them over state lines because it muddles up the different state laws? Is this a possibility that it could help? Because apparently, Kimosabe, in every Kimosabe contract, the provision required disputes to be handled in New York. And is it because of the laws? like between like entertainers in California versus how it is in New York? The short answer is probably in terms of connection to the like the crossing state lines thing. I think that's more logistically that, you know, the expanse and the different jurisdictions

of law enforcement changes. But a lot of contracts do have choice of law provisions is what they're called. And usually they are chosen based on what that party thinks is favorable. to their interests. Yeah. Now, I don't know. I imagine that both California and New York have similar, like, entertainment lobbies pushing for whatever.

So I don't know of anything that is so much more preferential in New York. In one sense, it's a power play. If you, like Sony, for example, has offices in New York, I don't know if Keshe has a residence there. Right. So if you are the person litigating and we'll talk a little bit. about this with the New York anti-SLAPP laws, which are designed now, and they're very new laws in like 2020 or 2021, which might apply going forward, but they're essentially designed to

combat those types of people who are potentially alleged serial abusers, and they use litigation on things like defamation to just bankrupt and exhaust their victims. Because, yeah, they can't afford to fly back and forth. They can't afford to get a lawyer in each place. They don't know. It's home turf advantage. It's like we have offices here. We're going to force you to come to us and spend more resources and exhaust yourself more. At least that. I mean, who knows? We have the recent ruling on Dr. Luke not being a public figure, which would have made him protected him a little bit from defamation. Yeah.

But in any event, it was a pro-Dr. Luke ruling in New York recently. In 2020. Yeah. Helped him out a little bit. Also, Keshah also adds Sony. This is now we're in 2015. Ketha adds Sony to the original lawsuit saying that they were aware of the abuse and quote, turned a blind eye to it.

That was actually to try to keep the case in California. Didn't work. Then Kesh and her lawyers pushed for a preliminary injunction against Dr. Luke and requested an ex-examination. expedited decision on whether the case can move forward as she's been unable to work until this gets resolved. The injunction would have gotten her out of the contract, is what they're asking for. From the injunction request is this quote. Until this court rules on the declaratory judgment claim, Kesha is at an impasse. She cannot work with music producers, publishers, or record labels to release new music.

With no new music to perform, Kesha cannot tour off the radio and stage and out of the spotlight, Kesha cannot sell merchandise, receive sponsorships, or get media attention. Her brand value has fallen, and unless the court issues this injunction, Keisha will suffer irreparable harm plummeting her career past the point of no return. Well, this also goes to show because even though it's like, well, yeah, she can. You're right, she can. And then what happens? She gets sued again because of the money that she's making and what they are owed, quote and

unquote. Yeah, of course she would make this up. Why wouldn't she? This sounds so fun for her. She benefits so much from this elevation. Fucking Sony set finally speaks out and calls her suit a quote, transparent and misguided attempt to renegotiate her contracts. Why don't do this?

Yeah, why would she? This is an idiotic way to do that. Which again, I've never heard as a strategy that people use frequently. A fucking successful career, rabid fans, money. She had no reason to do this except to go, please get this man away from me. But she got praying out of it. That's a damn good song. But it goes back to the fact that in the contract, the only thing, and again, I'm a layperson

to this case, and I don't know all the terms of the contract, but the only harm that I see to her is interacting with this person. It doesn't seem to be otherwise damaging, so I don't understand why there would be such an issue or an impetus for her to try to get out of it unless. Yeah. This had actually happened. That's like, that's kind of, you know, all. Apparently he's also just an asshole.

You know, that's what Kelly Clarkson essentially said. But yes, I don't think she would go to this like to deal with that. Well, even that. You know, if there's coercion and duress and abuse of power in one direction, that can be grounds to avoid a contract because it's unpleasant to be forced to work with somebody who treats you poorly. So, and that's, again, another subjective sort of thing with the balance of power, et cetera, et cetera. So even without the... sexual assault, the alleged sexual assault, she would have had a case to void the contract.

Even, she would have at least been, because she could have brought forward the stuff about, you know, the weight and the creative control and the emotional abuse. There was no reason, legally, for her to say, to bring it as a sex claim. Yeah. He assaulted me. Right. It's like the idea that she would make this up, and I think, you know, all the non-lawyers can have opinions on this. The idea that she would bring this up as like just an extra, you know,

and I'll sprinkle a sexual assault accusation on there. It's ridiculous. Well, it's not just sprinkling. She filed it as a sexual assault. Yeah. It's that old cliche of, you know, for assault deniers. Just, oh, she just wants the attention. Oh, she's just being crazy.

She just wants people to, like, feel sorry for her. And it's like, how many times do you have to watch somebody's life completely crumble and fall apart just to defend? their own body to know that that's not true. It's a notoriously fun process. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Because then there are times like producer cool co, Jack, who was one of the producers of the song Right Round that Kesha worked on who testified against her because she always seemed comfortable around Dr. Luke at the time they were recording Right Round also went on to say that Keshah would make sexually explicit comments during their recording session. and often here, I know, maybe cover your ears, make blowjob jokes. Oh, so there's no way that she could ever have ever been sexually assaulted.

So she wants to give him a blowjob, essentially. That's what that means. The music producer recalled there was one time when we were making right round that she came into the room and like I said, there were a ton of people in the room, and she cracked a joke about blowjobs, and everybody thought it was pretty funny. Boner, that is a word that pops up a lot with her. Boners. Wow. That was her email account.

I love boners. I love boners was her email account, which also makes me love her. It is so funny. Wait, what is her email? I love boners. It was at the time. But that doesn't mean that you can't be sexually assaulted.

It's so, that just like that in itself is just like a testament to how warped. The industry. Society is around, American society around the idea of what, like validates somebody getting assaulted. Like, There's no validation, obviously.

Listen to all the years of roundtable. I have been sexually assaulted multiple times. All right. Did I deserve it? I don't think I gave it. No. Have you ever said the word boner? Oh, no.

I just said it like seven times. No, but if you could gain 50 pounds, I would really appreciate it. There you go. It really does like this whole, can misogynists, like, get a new fucking routine? Can they, like, put some extra effort in? Because this, this, this, this, are. human is so tired and it goes back to the Madonna horror complex, right? It's like,

well, if she really had been assaulted, she wouldn't be able to get out of bed in the morning. She would join a nunnery. Exactly. She would disappear from society. Like, this would be completely, like, she would never be able to interact with him again. But what's exhausting, what's exhausting about this to me is that the guy

who brought that in thought that that was a good thing to bring to court that his brain is so trained. He was entitled to be a witness. Yeah. But he was like, well, I have great evidence to prove that she wasn't assaulted by him. That is such a systemic.

One time in 2008, I saw her say boner a bunch. So let me come forward. That is just like such a systemic issue that we have to fucking deal with as a nation as a fucking planet. That guy, that a dude shouldn't be able to walk into court being like, I got this figured out, guys. Listen, I have this thing that I heard her say one time. So clearly it's fine. In fact, like. I'd be interested in seeing if there were challenges to him being introduced as a witness,

because if I were representing the other side, I would have some relevance objections to... Yeah, was it that bad that just a couple years ago that that was considered a fine testimony? I don't know. I mean, you always wonder if there was stuff that wasn't reported that somebody that came out. Maybe sometimes things are admitted as an agreement that, like, if I can bring in this, will agree to let you bring in that, but even still. Well, obviously, Dr. Luke's legal team did think this was a good defense because they submitted as evidence a birthday card

that Kesha had handwritten him after the alleged assault took place. And they talked about texts and phone conversations that he had with Pee-B and Kesha after that, you know, would they have had this conversation if she had been sexually assaulted? Yes. Yes, that's very common. It's super common. And the idea, I think that it really reflects on like,

thankfully we are just now, just now starting to talk about the psychology around sexual assault because now psychologists are coming forward and saying there are so many aspects that come into play for why people don't come forward right after sexual assaults. Or even stop talking to the person. I can say that personally. Yeah.

The person who told me it took, It took me two years to stop talking to them. Yeah. It's almost more uncommon for somebody to immediately cut ties. And like do the right thing. I would quote a lot of. Yeah. And evidentiary rules and different courts and locations, New York specifically being

that that's where I studied. And so I kind of have watched the evolution of this are getting more understanding of that when you think about things like precedent on the kind of experts that you bring in. Now, in New York, at least, I can speak to the fact that a lot of experts are called routinely in cases like this who say, this is common victim behavior. This is why certain things are common. Here's what you see in X number of studies. This is why you should not discount this kind of behavior. So it almost, as we progress, it does become more common in legal circumstances to refute that kind of thinking.

there's still like a public opinion piece. Right. It has to be corrected. Our society still has a concept of how we think victims should behave. Right. And if they don't fit exactly into that box, even when psychologists are telling us, no, actually, the majority of them do not behave this way. This is actually very normal for an abuse victim to act this way.

And we only do it with abuse. We don't do it with murder. We don't do it with non-gender. Any other crime. It's this idea. that no, if she was really assaulted, she should behave X, Y, Z. She should take these steps.

And if she doesn't behave that way, then I'm going to pretend this didn't happen. There's no way. Yeah. For sure. So next up we've got Luke's defamation suits against Kesh's mom and manager Jack Rovner are dismissed due to lack of jurisdiction.

So one, after a couple of big L's for the cash against W. It seems like so many of these were able to go away based on like technicalities. Yeah. Well, because it's, It sounds like he filed the one, at least from what was read, it sounds like he filed the one in Tennessee to make a point about being able to hold Peebee responsible outside of New York. And so that that purpose almost spoke to the basis for it getting dismissed. It's like, oh, so there's not really, it's just holding your responsible where she lives. Yeah, right.

Yeah. So, so Peeb goes on to say, just a little side note, she tweets that allegedly Dr. Luke at that time was actually blackmailing her to take her name. off of Timber, the song that she helped write for Pitbull because of, you know, because Peebe, quote, told the truth about him and that there's just a lot of nasty side stuff that he's doing still.

I have a side note about the song Timber because I was listening to Kesha today to, you know, re-impressed. Yeah, Brett. So there's a line in that that says, she say she won't, but I bet she will. You talk about the culture in this industry

and, like, I find myself, like, singing along to it. I'm like, oh, wait. Tell me more. Tell me more. Did she put up a fight? I'm like, we can work, but damn. Yeah.

It's ingrained. Yeah, yeah. So. How many songs from the 60s are about a man stalking of 14-year-old girl? Except that was in the 60s. She's beautiful and she's mad. If you go over to the page 7 Patreon as I'm reading Twilight, which was written not that long ago, which is about two controlling assholes

over a girl that has no. And consent. Yes. No, I'm been screaming about it on the Patreon. Don't worry, Bella loves it. Oh, God. Oh, okay. So, next up, we've got Kesha getting another big setback, the third big L in February of 2016,

as her request to be released from her recording contract with Sony's Kimisabi label, was denied by a judge in NYC, claiming, quote, there had been no showing of irreparable harm, end quote, against Keisha's career. I will say real quick. In 2016, she also posted an Instagram post in which she claimed Dr. Luke offered to release her from her contract in exchange for her recanting her accusations. Kesha wrote,

I would rather let the truth ruin my career than lie for a monster ever again. And this is on Instagram. Does she say blowjob on Instagram though? No, blah. Maybe at some point. And you know what? You know what?

She wasn't assaulted. You're right. You're right. Where's the alleged assault now? She woke up in a bathtub, okay? She woke up in a bathtub. Feeling like P. Diddy. So what do you think P. Diddy doesn't have sex?

The judge noted that Sony had given Kesha the opportunity to record without Dr. Luke's involvement, which Kesha's lawyers dubbed a, quote, illusory promise that would set Kesha up for failure since Sony has sided with Dr. Luke at this point, according to Kesha. Is that, does that have any, like, I get that. I get how, obviously it's now, now that there are lawsuits and Sony has taken Dr. Luke's side, I would assume I'm in a situation where I'm in a hostile working environment. And they were also named as defendants in at least one iteration of the suit. So it's kind of. Why wouldn't they bury whatever she was going to try to put out?

Out of the front, pan and into the fire potentially? Yeah. Yeah. That it's like one defendant says that you can play with us, but with somebody else of our choosing. but my allegation is that you don't protect me from this guy who produced for you guys. So, Keshah also posted on Instagram before the hearing, quote, I have nothing left to hide. I did this because the truth was eating away my soul and killing me from the inside.

This is not just for me. This is for every woman, every human who has ever been abused. And of course, though, she could be seen later that day sobbing in the back of the courtroom when this rejection came through. Probably fake, though. Yeah, sure. She probably wasn't upset. Fans supporting the hashtag free Keshe movement stood outside the courthouse, and this is when, at least, she starts getting a lot more support. So in response, Kesha receives an outpouring from different musicians and celebs.

This is when T. Swept, you know what I'm saying, it's just so good. She donates $250,000 to assist with Keshe's legal bills, and Taylor's version of Fearless is, like, really great. And I just want everybody to know about it. And the extra songs for the vault are really good. And so, and Jack Antonoff is awesome about this too. Offers to produce for her and either leak it or wait or quote, wait on it till that creep can't block you anymore. I heard about that.

That was an awesome because he actually, he's a wonderful producer. He's better than Dr. Luke in my. He's working for Lady Gaga before. Yeah. And Lord. That amazing Lord album. Oh, I have a question. The Vampire Weekend was the obvious one.

Yeah. So if she did just put music out, what could they do to her? Could she actually go to jail? No, she just has, I think, and they even won this, right? Like, she has to just keep shelling out money. So she has. Yeah, because she's making completely on her own with these albums. And then he tries to recover the royalties from them.

So she can, okay, so she technically can. can put stuff out, but he will benefit. It's a nightmare, yeah. Okay, okay, got it. In my speculation without having read all the papers, I would assume the judge said that there was an inadequate showing of irreparable harm because, in fact, she can make the music and she can make money for herself off of it. It's just that whatever the contract designated as his share is still being enforced is his share.

I can't even imagine how invasive that still feels. like knowing that you're paying somebody who especially with the context of the song about the abuse that he did he has to give she has to give her abuser money for the song she wrote about his abuse that's fucking a double-edged sword because it is a good punch in the face to him it's a great song yeah the album that comes out you know for sure uh so lina dunham writes a letter of support which read quote when i saw the outcome when i saw the outcome of ketch's a case, I felt sick. And quote, what's happening to Ketchah highlights the way that the American legal system

continues to her women by failing to protect them from the men they identify as their abusers. Fiona Apple went on Margaret Chos Insta to post a message of Ketha. I love for that just like a random, Fiona Apple just had to go on Margaret shows. Fiona Apple like opened the clam shell. Yes, exactly. She leaving in her over the last 10 years and like crawled out of the woods. This is for her big angry. This is for her, like, insane feminist, latest album, which I love.

I'm back. I'm suffering. She, like, crawled out of the hollow trunk she had been sleeping in and was like, I'm back and I'm going to post on Instagram. Hello. I have something to say. Yeah, and she did say, I'm so angry for you. They were wrong. I'm so sorry.

On Twitter, Lady Gaga posted in support of Kesha and later met her in person as well as the evil Ariana Grande, because I heard she steals from people. Lily Allen also... She stole my brand. He hates Ariana Graeme. But she stole my brand. But she's really cute. Yeah, but then she wrote, oh, and a thing, and she stole my brand. Oh, I forgot you guys were still in a feud. She's a thief of my brand. Oh, okay.

Lily Allen, who I was trying to figure out her name last time we did this. Oh, I really? Lily Allen's great. Halsey, Lord, and Moore all come out in support. Adele spoke out at the Brit Awards for Keshe's saying she would, quote, like to take this moment to publicly support Kesha. Dr. Luke then breaks his silence on Twitter later in February saying, quote, they are getting behind an allegation only motivated by money. Keshire writes a letter to fans saying, quote,

this case has never been about a renegotiation of my record contract. It was never about getting a bigger or a better deal. Yeah, no shit. This is about being free from my abuser. I would be willing to work with Sony if they do the right thing and break all ties that bind me to my abuser. And this is where Kelly Clarkson comes in in March on an Australian radio station. His March?

I think this is the most damning thing. No, no, this is back in 2015, I think, 2016. Oh, okay, okay. 2016 March, she goes on an Australian radio station that she, and said she only worked with Luke, quote, because literally I got blackmailed by my label. They were like, we will not put your album out if you don't do this. She also said, unfortunately, when you have that poor of character, so many artists don't like you and don't like working with you.

that's not normal. I get along with everyone I work with, but he's just not a good guy for me. Obviously, he's a talented dude. He just lied a lot. I've run into a couple of really bad situations. Musically, it's been really hard for me because he will just lie to people.

And it's like, what? And it makes the artist look bad. He's kind of difficult to work with, kind of demeaning. And that's since you've been gone. That's the first, that's the song that kind of put him on the map. Why do labels love him so much then?

I think as he makes. If you make money, it's money talks. He's referred to... Jack Antenoff does too. Yeah. He's referred to as the best friend of every pop singer. It's not just fucking disgusting. This guy...

They have not had a good best friend. No, get better friends. But it is kind of crazy because there's just so many producers that are outspoken against him. There's a top music manager that would not give his name. It said Luke is a terrible person. He's very talented, obviously. he's a guitar player interested in pop beats, but he's diabolical. No one likes dealing with him.

He loves his guitar, I heard from your last episode. He's very talented. Yes. And if he does have other victims, alleged victims out there, why would they come forward after what he's done? Who knows? But I certainly know that it is in both pink and Avril Levine's contracts that they are to never work with him.

Oh, wow. So it's like, those are too huge. And when were those drafted? I'm not sure. I mean, probably before a lot of this hit the fan. But it had to be years and years ago. I mean, Al-LaVine. It's not like Al-Ralevine is still making music songs.

No, this was a while. Unfortunately, actually, she does, I think, but. But pink is still, like, huge, okay? And also, and Pink actually, I think I have a quote from Pink, too, is like, he sucks. I love Pink. Also, in March, Kesha, we'll do an episode on her. Please. Also, in March, Kesha officially appeals the judge's decision to denials.

her injunction for freedom from her record contract. And that's when she goes on Insta and does, Jackie already talked about it, how she was, she's apparently offered to get out of her contract if she just all took back, sees all that shit. She said about what actually allegedly happened in April. See how I said actually allegedly?

I wish she got that in writing or, and this is a good lesson in general. If people send things that are not nice to you in a potentially, law violating way, just screenshot it and save it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Keep everything. Make digital copies. Yes.

In April, a New York judge throws out Kesha's counterclaims of abuse against Dr. Luke, stating that Kesha is acting, quote, unreasonably. And here's where we have this thing. I'd like to unpack this a little bit, that, quote, every rape is not a gender-motivated hate crime, end quote, while also citing a lack of jurisdiction evidence. A, what does that matter? The judge further said, I think Kesha's,

on her period? Yeah, like, what does that matter? Like, I don't even understand why he would even say that. Yeah, that, that seems like a really just asshole-y thing to say. The first basis, and I think Brooke actually went into it a little bit more, but I can at least unpack why it was said. So, California has a special crime or civil violation, I guess, in this case, that is a claim of gender violence, and it requires physical invasion.

So, like, it's its own thing. So she claimed sexual assault and battery, which is the obvious physical offense. Sexual harassment in the professional employer context, unfair business practices and harassment kind of all fit into that employer-employee relationship and violations thereof. But the gender violence claim California-specific, which is another piece of potentially why jurisdiction matters, or it's an example of that, that different states have different laws to protect folks. but it requires a physical invasion and some form of sexual discrimination, an employer relationship, and sex has to be a motivating factor in the offense.

So that, it's kind of required by the law that you show that gender was a motivating factor. And this is something that comes up a lot with sex crimes and hate crimes in general. like can you say that there is an inherent misogynistic aspect, for example? So she would have to prove that he sexually assaulted her specifically because she was a woman, which, which, yeah. The problem being that you have to prove that in court. So it's like, to us, it may seem obvious. And I don't want to, this is nothing to do with the fact that, like, many men are victims of sexual assault and abuse as well.

So rape is not always a, you know, female specific gender-based hate crime. But the problem with this is like, yes, it, the actual legal definition of gender-based hate crime does not apply in this specific situation. It's still a gross thing to say. I think that we can all agree to that. But it's like what she was saying.

And also the judge who said that was a woman. Yeah, yeah. I assume gender there. I said he. But I think that's like notable, kind of, because it's like, it just, she also got to say it. They probably get it in a sense. Yeah, it's like, part of me is just like, I understand that like what she's saying is like technically from a very clinical legal standpoint.

It's not a gender-based hate crime, even though it may seem like. But what would you have to say? Such a weird standard, you know, but it's like, how do you prove that? I'm raping and punching you because you have a vagina. Right. That's the thing. It's impossible to prove. Right.

The judge, it sounds. Alice coming from her, but she's saying it from a standpoint of the law. But the law doesn't make much sense to me. How are you ever supposed to prove that? I wonder what does qualify under California. Like what has been shown to fit that definition? I mean, I can see in lesser scenarios in an employment context that it's like somebody grabs your ass at work or something.

Or calls you like, honey and tells you you're not smart enough because of your lady brain. those ironically lesser invasions, but that are clearly because there's a gender dynamic. Right. But also, there's something, Natalie, you said, you know, it sounds callous, and it is callous, and I think that there's something we have to remember with all of this is like... Laws are laws. Sometimes laws are callous. Like, sometimes laws are cruel.

To be very clear, but to be crystal clear about what's happening. And that's why legal proceedings are so tough on victims. Yeah, I think we have to almost like dismiss. this idea that we've built in our heads that like the law is the ultimate standard of morality because it's not. Oh my God, obviously if we haven't learned anything from the last five years, Jesus Christ. Well, and also, I mean, think of murder cases, the evidence that comes out, it hurts there too. And it's very, very clear there too. If somebody's alleging child abuse, it's going to get ugly and it's going to get very unemotive. Right. But isn't that sort of why laws are nebulous in a way where

we're not supposed to why people get really like intense about like the constitution and amendments and stuff. They're amendments because things like to change sometimes. And so sometimes these cases almost just like provide a window into something that doesn't work very well and doesn't need to change. Or that we need to tweak. Yeah, because it this and the inverse to the constitution is I imagine a pretty new law. So I'd like to see how it's working in California if it's worked in other contexts or if it's just kind of like. We did a good thing on the book, so we feel good about ourselves, but then in practice, it doesn't help. And I would like to add that this same judge followed up her, this California judge followed up that statement by saying, Cash's claims of intentional infliction of emotional distress was dismissed because the judge said, claims of insults about her value as an artist, her looks, and her weight are insufficient to constitute extreme outrageous conduct that's intolerable in a civilized. society. And once again, it's like, I'm sorry? Like, honest, but I imagine that, because intentional emotional distress is such a hard claim to prove because you have to show that somebody

is saying something mean with the purpose of breaking you. And so if you look at the entertainment industry, it's like, I wasn't saying she was fat because I wanted to break her, but because it's the truth in Hollywood. It's more like everybody's equally broken in the industry. Yeah. And I think it just shows what we really need to change is the status quo, what's considered normal. Because if this does not constitute extreme outrageous conduct intolerable in a civilized society, are we a civilized society? Nope. Really?

Yeah, like what does then qualify if that doesn't? It also depends on when the laws were put into place because apparently since then, California state laws regarding sexual harassment and gender violence have been amended to include anti-waiver provisions meaning that proof of rape would be enough to void a contract. So you have to prove rape, though. You have to prove it, which is the issue. I think that honestly would probably still have applied to this. But like I was saying with the civil versus criminal, that's the tricky piece here.

Right. So Kecha is starting to perform at Coachella. She has to fight against Dr. Luke, but she wins to be able to perform at the Billboard Music Awards. Pebebe drops her counter suit against Dr. Luke. Keshah herself drops the California lawsuit and ends up just opting to focus on that New York suit to be released from her contract. Yeah. She delivers,

well, it's by him defamation suit. Yes, yes. She delivers 28 songs to her label around this time, which she financed by herself. And then I name this next section, he sues and he sues. Man, he sues. He loves it. Dr. Luke sues Kesh's mom again, claiming she didn't allow him to a man. in his original suit with new complaints,

but continued to make defamatory comments about the alleged abuse. She's such a bitch. Now it's 2017, and Dr. Luke threatens to sue Kesha again for defamation over a text. She allegedly sent to Lady Gaga the week after she lost her injunction in which she claimed Luke sexually assaulted another artist. This makes no sense to me. I don't understand this. Keshe accuses Luke of financially cutting her off and still not compensating her for the timber track.

Keshire releases emails a month later, alleging from, allegedly from Dr. Luke in which Luke appears to intimidate Kesha into dieting saying, quote, A-list songwriters and producers are reluctant to give Kesher's songs. That was that part. Lawyers, because of her weight, lawyers for Dr. Luke moved to subpoena, a Kesha fan who runs a Twitter account that helped organize hashtag free Kesha protest. So before we move on really quick, like how is the text thing even like allowed? It was a private conversation. Yeah.

And it was a private conversation that was only released to the public because Dr. Luce Luke's team subpoenaed it to be released. Yeah, how is this allowed? I don't get that. So they subpoenaed it, it sounds like, so subpoenas can actually be issued by lawyers. There's a special kind of subpoena, which is a judicial subpoena that in my past job, like you kind of have a different standard of what you review. But lawyers can issue them and see if the other party, the onus is on them then to say no and potentially get challenged. So I, imagine it was probably a lawyer's subpoena to the person. I just don't understand how he can say it's defamation if he was the one who made it public.

That's a good point. But the public element, it doesn't have to be the world at large. It can be the fact that Keshe said it to Lady Gaga, so another person. Which is amazing to me because it's like, how can you sue someone for defamation for essentially gossiping about it. you because this is that's the thing though if it's a very specific allegation imagine these people weren't celebrities and I so you're saying like if

we texted each other that like Holden poops his pants yeah whatever he does exactly so but it has to be something a little bit worse like it has to be a provably false criminal sort of conduct is good Holden likes to make love to stuffy animals

or actually not illegal either I hate to tell you in a store in the store but either way you could I could then, if I found out about that, I could actually sue. Because it's like your reputation then is damaged to somebody. Bad reputation. Bad reputation. Oh, I'm sorry, I just started singing Taylor Swift.

I just love her so much. I don't even know. You don't make this about Taylor Swift. He's trying. It's on reputation. It's on the reputation. But also like professional elements too. Yeah.

This is another person that he could work with, has worked with that his label works. So it's like you can imagine the harm if somebody in the label. Yeah. I get it. All right, so in March of 2017, a judge rejects Kesh's amended countersuit against Dr. Luke, which for a third time stopped freedom from her record deal. The judge totally victim blamed saying this nonsense. This is what I wrote in my notes.

Quote, with respect to the prescription agreement signed into November 2008, Gottwald's allegedly abusive behavior was foreseeable. Interesting. All right. And then... Oh, because she had already said. Yeah, I guess it was foreseeable that he was going to rape her. Bye-bye, Dr. Luke.

is my next section. Nice. Dr. Luke steps down as CEO of Kimasabi records, though, claims to still have a relationship with Sony in some form. Dr. Luke's Tennessee, so that's a yay.

Dr. Luke's Tennessee defamation lawsuit against Pebe is dismissed. In July, Keshire releases praying on Kimasabi Records and announces her third album Rainbow to be released that same summer. Dr. Luke, then subpoena's lady Gaga in his defamation case

over the alleged text, Gaga's people release a statement saying Dr. Luke's team is attempting to manipulate the truth and draw press attention to their case by exaggerating Lady Gaga's role and falsely accusing her of dodging reasonable requests.

Pink, this is the Pink interview for the New York Times says, I know that regardless of whether or not Luke did that, this is his karma and he earned it because he's not a good person. I love that. That should hold up in a court of law. He'd be like, I don't care if he did it or not. He sucks. He sucks. He sucks.

He's so much of an asshole that he deserves this. Keshah does that. amazing performance of Praying at the Grammys in January 2008. Make you cry if you watch it. I do love that she... Have you seen Dr. Luke play the guitar? Oh my God, he is pretty good. That Gesh's memory from the night is like getting a giant hug from all these people

that the media had previously pitted against each other. It was just us saying no. I love it. It's interesting because I was putting a very traumatic experience on display. But it was something I consented to. I was also terrified. But if something terrifies me, I feel like it may be important. Even if it sounds like utter hell and I just weep on the microphone, at least I tried.

This is something that we kept saying in the last episode of regardless, Keshah is a very positive person. She's very healthy-minded. Yes, and is working through it and is talking about it. And I love that she's giving the part of conversation where she's not just a victim, but she needs to tell her story. and it's important for visibility for people. It's important to see these things.

And I'm so happy that she's talking about it. I wish it didn't fucking happen to her. But ain't nothing worth having. Was easy to come by. And you know what? You know where she probably learned that? The I.B. program. Oh my God.

We're so smart. So get dead. But all comes back. A big setback in the case is that a New York appeals court sides with a previous judge who ruled that Kesha is not permitted to make any further appeals to be released from her contract in a court case pertaining to Dr. Luke's defamation lawsuit against her. So that's a big

bummer. Then things get weirdly high schooly. Lady Gaga finally releases those texts and in them Kesha claims Katie Perry was allegedly sexually assaulted by Dr. Luke and Luke's filing claims that Kesha encouraged Gaga to spread negative messages about Luke in the press and on social media.

The lawyers told Variety it would have remained completely private. Except that Dr. Luke and its team took an email obtained by only in discovery and decided to publish it to millions of people in his amended complaint against Ketha and then claim reputational harm. Yeah, exactly. They're just reconfirming what you said, Natalie. Then there's this weird, this is where things get high school. There's this weird text issue between Gaga Kasha and Katie Perry in which Gaga texts Keshah that Katie is quote, mean. Gaga takes to Twitter saying these are old texts. We've matured, gotten over the

past, love each other and share deep respect. Katie is my friend and is a truly kind soul end of story. art emoji. So they worked it out. Gaga's 2017 deposition is unsealed in which she recounts how she first met Kesha in Dr. Luke's home studio and that Kesha was in the back room wearing only her underwear. And then Gaga says, I think this is one of the most damning things too. Gaga says, so if you're asking what my view is of his reputation, I made my view of him and his reputation when I saw her in that back room. That was an image of that, of something that happened to me. And I felt and knew in my heart that she was telling the truth, and I believe her. And I believe her, too.

Ha, he's working so hard to put them against each other and it's not working. It's not working. He said they're all hugging at the Grammys. Yep. So in 2020, Kesha's fourth album, High Road is released on Kimosabe slash RCA in January of 2020. In February, a Manhattan Supreme Court justice named Jennifer Schechter rules that Kesha defamed Dr. Luke and that text exchange with Lady Gaga and the accusations concerning Luke and Katie Perry, mean. Shector also orders that Keshe paid Dr. Luke over $373,000 in royalties.

Kesha's legal team plans to appeal that ruling. And I have some quotes to kind of close things out, but real quick, before we do that, I did want, we did want to talk a little bit, which is very interesting about how they're trying to argue that he's not a public figure. But that was the asterisk on why she ruled against Kesha for the defamation thing. It was because public figures, it's harder to claim defamation because there's a public interest in the goings-on of their life. There's kind of the idea that they consented to a little more conversation. Public scrutiny. Public scrutiny, exactly. So just for context, Jennifer Schachter was also the judge who ruled in favor of one of Trump's victims in a defamation case when Trump had said that

he hadn't raped her or sexually assaulted her, whatever the case was. So Jennifer Schechter has been kind of on both sides of the victim-assaulter spectrum, for what it's worth, as a judge. But the public figure calculus, it's a tricky one. I, just hearing how much about Dr. Luke has been in the media, it's hard for me to feel like he's not somebody who's well-known. This is the thing. To be said as a private citizen, even just this.

snapshot. In 2012, Dr. Luke had more than 200,000 Twitter followers. This is in 2012. In 2013, the Media Coalition's brief notes Dr. Luke had written 40 hit songs, 16 of which topped the Billboard Hot 100 chart. By October 2014, when he filed his first defamation claim, Dr. Luke's success as a music producer had landed his name in headlines at least 39 times and in news articles 577 times in more than 50 major publications. He had also received for Grammy nominations. How is this man not a public figure? That's very good evidence that you're citing to.

Like the number of headlines. I will say like Natalie and I were talking beforehand, I don't know if I know his name from anything before this. Before the trial. Yeah, I would agree with that. It's tough because so much of his attention has come from this, which has been a multi-year process. But the most recent development,

is that 2020, we have these anti-SLAP rules in New York, which is where the case is. So jokes on you, a choice of law in New York, folks. And SLAP stands for strategic lawsuits against public participation. So when these laws were passed, they were aimed at the likes of Harvey Weinstein and Trump, who try to intimidate and bankrupt their victims by making all these defamation claims and just keeping them in years of litigation when the alleged abusers, can afford to do that and the accusers can't in the same way. So those tend to reclassify public figure. It strengthens victims' rights to say certain things. So it's possible that under those new guidelines,

the public figure designation could be reexamined, given that the case is still pending. So we'll see. I also just want to thank you for that. helpful. And I just also wanted people to know that during the, I don't know if you remember last year, there's a global pandemic going on. What? During the chaos of that. This is the first time hearing of it. Yeah. So during that, he, Dr. Luke managed to snake himself back into the industry, being able to produce Dojo Cat's song, what's it called, Say So?

And it turns out huge hit. It plays a big hit. blew up on TikTok and like, yeah, completely made her career. And that's how he managed to get in during all of this. Because it became a hit on TikTok, he was able to go under cover and he changed his name to some other dumb name. Like to some like, you know, like poppy name. And he got, because it got famous on TikTok and it wasn't through like radio stations. Ironic, by the way. I was just going to say like, and it's on TikTok.

full circle Yeah, I know right Right But yeah But because if it would have gone Like big through radio And stuff like that And you know

Like bigger companies Like corporations They would have said no Because of all the stuff going on But because it became famous Through a girl on TikTok I forget who was TikTok it was It was everywhere

Because they're potentially young enough Because they're potentially young enough That they don't get who he is They're not doing the research And there's not any like gatekeeper prohibiting his name getting through. Except Doja Cat, like you would hope that...

Right, but she's also a young woman in the industry. With Dr. Luke, if he's not stopped those, allegedly, those kind of guys, there's always going to be another young girl who's hungry. Who's desperate for anything. And we'll believe, we'll believe them. Not even saying like, oh, they're just going to, like, be okay with the salt. They're going to just tell themselves. But the best option is something.

Yeah. They're going to tell themselves that it's not going to happen. And apparently he lies and he lies. And he sues and he soothes and he soos. So I've got a couple quotes here before. I'm done on my end. Kasha said in an interview with Billboard, when you work really hard at something,

then you have it taken away from you. It's pretty devastating. I worked my ass off for a lot of years to be able to do it. I sang backup vocals and the first couple songs I was on. I didn't give a fuck because I just had this one vision. Once you earn that and make that happen, then you have it taken away from you. It's pretty devastating.

It's definitely a mind fuck. But she also said, I truly feel like I've been through the shit and I've earned my happiness back. I also like this concept. She said, musicians used to be the rebellious ones, but now I feel an overwhelming responsibility

to be as emphatic and kind and loving and as safe of a place as humanly possible for people. What a Pisces, truly. What a double Pisces. I mean, her mom made it, so, you know. I know, I will say, you know, you do have to be careful what sign your kid is going to come out.

so I actually agree with peevee on this. You got to watch out. There are some bad ones. Leo season for me. So listen, don't have sex on Valentine's Day because I'm a Scorpio and that's how that happened. But always have sex on Thanksgiving because that makes Leo's. And gain 50 pounds. Damn it.

I'm sorry. Unless you want to. I honestly do. I think that like the fact that Keshah. overcame all of this and like made herself. And this is so trite what I'm about to say, but I'm going to say it anyway, because it's the truth. Made herself the hero of her own story.

She was like, all of this that's happening to me and like all of these, all the ways that I've been wronged, I'm going to take those things and like turn it into something good. I'm going to be kinder to people. I am going to try to like nurture others and build them up and be a more positive person. And it's like not. that I'm saying that that should be your responsibility to do that because like damn like whatever

the outcome of the cases she has shown that she is the bigger person and the better person in this and that she had that she can't be taken down by someone like dr luke so good for her i have you know like honestly the fact that she was able to like she is you said in the last episode she just seems like she has a good partner it seems like she's doing really well personally it seems like she like really is a kind and mature and good person, and there are very few of those in the world, so props to Kesha. I liked her when she was the female, Andrew WK,

and I like her now. Hell yeah. I might even say, I stand her. Whoa. I'm young. Oh, yeah, time to die. We love you guys. Go to die young.

Hopefully we won't. Thank you guys so much for joining us, And thank you for so much. This has been so much fun. Absolutely. I put a question mark at the end. Even with all this heavy stuff. It's extremely cathartic to be able to scream into a microphone

all of these feelings about this. And I'm frightened. I've been frightened since I walked in. As you should. Thank you guys. Thank you guys so much. And so for the exceedingly persuasive side, I'm Mackenzie Brennan.

You can find me on Instagram, MKZ Joy Brennan, on Twitter when I am brave enough to go on, I'm get me to a nunnery, but with the number two. And I do want to plug, a friend of mine just lost her husband to a DUI, and they have a two-year-old, and it's shit. It's absolute shit. The person was going the wrong way on the freeway. During a pandemic, no less, on a Tuesday. So what the fuck? If you want to Venmo any donations, she's been really, really grateful, and we are too. She was the primary breadwinner. They have a young child.

It was very tragic and quick death, and it's extremely sad. We'll be sure to link the post. We'll put the links up on our. Yeah, his name was Bobby Kramer. He was really, he mentored every, just another good person. Like, he was a medic and he brought everybody up in the community. Ah, but if you want to donate anything to the family, you can, with the subject, Bobby, Venmo, me, at, M. KZ Brennan, and I will send you a little screenshot receipt that it's gone on to his wife, Lindsay.

Awesome. And I really appreciate it. All right. Brooke, do you have any dead people you're trying to raise money for? No, I do not. Nintang! Hold in. You can find, I love it.

Just try to keep a line a little bit. I'm like, I feel weird plugging my Instagram now. You can find me on. If you just want to see my party picks, I'm at Brooke Party Girl on Instagram. If you want to see my selfies, you can find me. on Instagram at Brooke Angeline. You can find me on Twitter

at BKEe Rogers. Our exceedingly persuasive podcast you can find on Spotify and Apple anywhere you get your podcast. Oh, and Patreon. Hell yeah. And we have a Patreon

Exceedingly Persuasive. Exceedingly persuasive. We do a monthly bonus episode and some other fun things on there. We'll yell about the royal family. Oh. We do a lot. Money yell at.

Twitch. Twitch.tv. 4. Holdenators ho. So I do his stream every Friday. Jackie, it's a blast. We get hammered on White Claws

and sing songs these days on karaoke for you guys. Twitch on TV, forward slash hold on there. So also the page 7 Patreon. Patreon.com forward slash page seven podcast. Boom. Check it out.

There's so much stuff. Jackie mentioned the Twilight thing. That's happening among other things on there. It's a really good investment. Oh, I scream. Natalie? Uh, they daddy Jean on Twitter and Instagram and TikTok. And I do page seven with these guys.

And I have a. new podcast called Someplace Underneath with Amber Nelson where we discussed missing women. It's so good. You love it. It's amazing. Yeah, it's really good. Thank you.

We're having fun question mark with it. Yeah, if you liked this, you probably should go there. We're dead people. Maybe not. Potentially alive. Oh, yeah. And hopefully, yeah, maybe alive. Yeah.

And it's someplace underneath at TikTok and Instagram as well. Awesome. And I'm Jackie Zabrowski. I'm not going to plug anything. I'm good. I love you guys. You plug your stuff, Twitch. You blogged me. Let's get out of here. We love you guys. You know it. All right. Happy going, everybody.

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