Page 7 - Riverdale Roundup Ch. 130: You're The Red Menace

Episode Date: June 30, 2023

As always we're left wondering, was that a choice or an accident? Page 7 and Wizard and the Bruiser are going on TOUR! Dates and links to tickets at lastpodcastnetwork.com Support us on our Patreon page and get weekly bonus Patreon-exclusive content! Patreon.com/Page7Podcast Intro song by Green Dreams Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes of Page 7 ad-free.Start a free trial now on Apple Podcasts or by visiting siriusxm.com/podcastsplus. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, LPN fans, page 7 and Wizard and the Bruiser are going on tour. Yes, the Last Podcast Network presents the release of Butthole Cut tour could be coming to your town. Holden, where are we going? July 11th will be in Oklahoma City, July 12th, Kansas City, Missouri, and finishing out in July 13th, St. Louis. Be there. MJ, where can we get tickets? For tickets, go to Last Podcast Network.com. Say it again.

That's Last Podcast Network.com. Oh man, I have a major confession to start this show out. I'm jumping right to the end, but I cry. What? I cry. Wow. I cried. I think it was because I just got back from Florida and I was going through all of my high school books that I studied in high school.

And my mom was making like essentially jokes because she was like, you know, this one you can't read in Florida schools anymore. You know, Beloved? Can't read it in Florida schools anymore. Like she started going through all of the, and I was just like, Jesus Christ. And then like, and then the book burning and I just burst in. I cried about the book burning. I was over here going through like, what could you have even cried about Hermione coming back and telling Veronica that they're getting a divorce? It's canceled and they're going to get a divorce. Is that what made you cry?

It was the book burning because it's like too close to home. It was like, is that next? Yeah. Is that where it's going next? And Jeff's just like, are you crying at Riverdale right now? I was like, I'm crying about the greater good, okay? I'm crying about others, like the outside of this. Yeah, no, that's fair.

I don't think that Riverdale is trying to be heavy-handed about drawing historical parallels. No, I don't think so either. I think it's just a sad, co-winky pink. Right, it is a real quinky pink that it is, it happens to be that there is a lot of band book stuff going on right now. because the rest of the season hasn't been super heavy-handed about, like, I mean, and there are some apt historical parallels to describe here. I mean, there's obviously a massive ramped-up, you know,

attack on same-sex love right now that is that they are really exploring a lot in terms of the 1955 timeline. But they, I appreciate that as heavy-handed as Riverdale can be sometimes. They haven't really been like, wow, this is the past, you know. But it is funny that this episode just turned out to be an allegory about banned books, and we are living in hell presently right now in 2020. We really are. And who knew that Riverdale would draw such parallels to our current day?

It makes me really sad. In the world where a glamourge egg exists, that is the world that is parallel to, like, where just like think of all of the insane things that have happened in Riverdale before. and this is close to reality? Yeah. What's happening? I don't know when they wrote this season, how recently, you know, how much if they wrote it a year out and are just, you know, and it's just coming up now.

But it really does. I mean, there is actually a surprising amount of relevance to all of the plotlines that they are like spending time with and focusing on terms of the 1955 Riverdale timeline. And yeah, it has not felt obnoxiously like the past comes back for. us, although obviously it does. Although, and twice in this episode, they did say, words have power. They did say words have power so many times. They said it multiple times in this episode.

I was like, all right, I hear you remember now. You're right. You are right. You are right. Heavy-handed, but you are right. But you know what was not heavy-handed? Vidal Mastro. Videl Mastro.

All right, let's talk to the beginning of this episode. Because who walks it? Like, let's talk about Veronica. go because you know what and I'm throwing it out there this this episode had many like literature like play performances yeah a lot of monologues being done right I thought they all did a great job agree I was really proud I was proud of the entire cast in this episode I know good for you got man you guys have learned a thing or two on this show I know they really gave KJ Appa his little moment to be like wow

I think this man is just dumb as hell. Well, watch him do the monologue from the crucible where John Proctor says he's not going to name names. And KJ. Hapa fucking killed it. He did great. Like, Jeff and I both held hands and like open mouth, like, looked at each other just like, what?

And I'm happy for him. Great. I'm happy for him, too. Because every, he must know that everybody thinks he's dumb. And he was like, I'm not dumb. Let me do his monologue. I'm really an actor. I swear.

Oh, God, is KJ Appa? Oh, God, no, it's MJ. Oh, my God. Oh, my brain. Don't hurt my brain like that. He's not the only actor in town. No, he's not. And we are in the thrills, in the thralls is the word that I was, I got to get this coffee in me.

I should be drinking the coffee. I need to have a full coffee before the Riverdale Roundup, not mid-first coffee. Anyway, we are in the thralls of McCarthyism. And if that's what you expected me to say, then good on you. I mean, we knew that McCarthyism had to come up at some point in this. We knew it was coming because we're in the mid-50s. And they've kind of alluded to it before in this season, I think. There's been some mentions of it.

But this was our McCarthyism episode. And I got to say, I loved it. They did a great job. And of course, the other, and this is all related. So let's drop all the big bombs about this episode. and then we'll try to connect them all. So the big, we'll circle back.

The big exciting thing about this episode, of course, if you follow Riverdale or Roberta Gira Sikasa on Instagram or us on Instagram or any of the cast on Instagram, you probably saw that Hiram Lodge, aka Marcosuelos, came back.

Oh, thank God. Even just seeing his initials on his luggage before we even see him, I was just like, yes. I mean, we knew Hiram Lodge was in this episode, but I was so happy. Yeah, there was a great shot of his beautiful luggage, by the way, with H.L. on it.

And so we got a little teaser on that. We knew that was happening. And thank God, because as we have been complaining, all season of season seven, it's very hard to have a Veronica plot when her entire internal motivation, external, like all of her internal conflict and external conflict,

all has to do with her parents. It always has. And that continues to be true in season seven. But in this season, she has had no parents. And so it's very hard to have this kind of invisible conflict going on because both Hirameh and Hermione, the actors were by-bye. Fair enough, guys. It was a long show.

You needed to leave. But thank God. Well, did you notice that the meta line that Hermione has later on when she's talking about Oh, Miha? She's like, it's been on for seven seasons. And I needed it to end. I didn't notice the seven seasons thing. That's hilarious.

But it was perfect. First of all, just I'm so glad that they brought them back. And both, I didn't know, both Hiram and Hermannia coming back. We thought it was just Hiram. And so very exciting that they both came back in this episode. They're both fantastic. But what was also exciting was it just, it wasn't just him coming back to be bad daddy, as he always is. They used him as the vehicle to bring in McCarthyism because he had gone to Cuba on a trip and hung out with Vidal Mastro, which I just could not stop laughing about.

I love the Riverdaleisms, but Vidal Mastro might be my favorite. Videl Mastro, there's no need. Why can't you just say Fidel Castro? If he's not on the show. I know, I don't think it's like that. controversial to just say Fidel Castro, but I like that we are just at a slight, it's like, it really tells you that Riverdale, Renever dimension they're in is not the same dimension we're in, you know? It's just, it is a different world. And so, um, Hiram had gone to Cuba with Vidal Mastro and he says that he was just there to get cigars, but he, the FBI,

Glenn, by the way, Glenn is back. The second I saw him in the elevator, I was like, is that That's glad. Is that S-A-F-B-I-Boy? Yeah, the guy who got, what was the stabbing game they played with him? Do you remember? Oh, my God, yes. Human pincushion? Human pincush.

Yes. So he didn't die from human pincush in that universe because we are in a different universe, which is the 1955 universe. And in this universe, he's the McCarthy goon outfinding all the communists. And so Hiram is suspected of collaborating with communist revolutionary. in Cuba. And McCarthyism has also, in addition to coming for Hiram, it has come for Riverdale because the newsstands all around Riverdale have stopped selling PEP Comics because of the it's scandalous and it's anti-American and all this stuff. So the whole theme of this episode for

Veronica and for Jughead and Ethel. For everybody. Yeah, really for everybody. Because for Archie, because Mrs. Thornton gets taken at Zakami and then for Cheryl and Kevin and Clay and Tony. Yep. Like this is, this is an episode. This is like, I do wonder,

and I'm assuming that this is the culmination of censorship. Yeah. The fact that they ended it with a book burning. Yeah. I feel like this is what it's been leaning upwards. And in fact, I will say, not to throw it out there,

that Jeff was felt very proud of himself for talking about it last week about the, uh, the, comics code and everything and what had. And it was like, this is exactly what you were just talking about. Yes. And I wonder, I'm going to see if I can bring up this Instagram message that I got, but that apparently the comics code, the reason Archie and Archie Comics tie into this

comics code stuff is that when the comics code things happened, so many comics were censored and Archie Comics, because it was so like a vanilla, where the only comics allowed to be sold like at the, you know, at the checkout. Oh. Let me, I got to find the actual message about this because I want to make sure that I'm getting it right. But so that, so it's the specific self-aware, like, thing of the world of Riverdale was presented as an alternative to, like, the darker world of comics. Which isn't that then cool that the whole premise of Riverdale is Riverdale but dark? It's like.

The darker version of Archie. I just got chills just saying it that it's like, what are we going to do without it? Bring the darkness to Riverdale because Riverdale used to be this faking, not dark comic world, and so let's bring the darkness. Like, that's the whole project of Riverdale. And I just love that they're bringing it home this way. It's really nice. God, they're doing a great job.

Ooh. This is definitely another, like, because remember we talked about last episode was definitely building up to a lot of things that they're knocking down, and they're knocking them down in this episode. which makes it, you know, scary, but at least we know that it was heading towards censorship. So then it's going to be with, it's going to deal with. And also remember Betty, too, because this episode starts off with Betty

that her mother had taken her typewriter and her phone from her bedroom. So that was already like, okay, inside censorship. And then she goes to school. Right. And the principal tells her, well, oh, sorry, we don't have the funding anymore. so blue and gold is going to just stop.

And Betty's like, what do you mean? That's like the school newspaper. Right. How we give out information to the school. Yes. And Principal Featherbott was like, I don't give a shit. There's no money for it. So Betty, in her pissed off man, goes to the blue and gold room, steals the typewriter from there,

and creates her own underground newspaper called The Girl Mystique. Yeah, right. So it's the teenage mystique, which also is a, teenage mystique, yes. Which is a reference also to the feminine mystique. Yes. And so, right, so it's like a newspaper, but it's also, right. So the feminine mystique was a book by Betty Friedan, which came out in 1963. And it was like a foundational feminist text.

And right, so she's made, but also, but what she was really doing is making like a zine. you know, which is cool. It's like a DIY self-published newsletter that she is sending out. And yeah, Betty actually really took a back seat in this episode. We didn't get much on this, but basically she starts the teenage mystique. And then by the end of the episode for Betty, we see that she has gotten like inundated with letters from readers. So it's a huge, huge hit, which is like a secret teenage feminist zine that she is like self-publishing and self-publishing. distributing through Riverdale High in all well everything else comics and the school newspaper and homosexuality are all being censored and even like poetry Archie's interest in poetry is even being

censored it's like oh his uncle daddy says like people will get the wrong idea about you which I assume means gay yes and that's and that was such a like Mrs. Thornton who was the teacher that got taken away for possibly being a communist was the one that was fostering Archie being a poet, which just started last episode. This is a brand new thing. He's like, oh my God, that should be a poet. So he's decided, which we remember, this takes me back to the, should I be a football player or should I play the guitar from the first, was that the first season?

Was that the second season? That was the first season, I think. It's first season. Yeah. And so it makes me think of that where he's just like, but I'm a basketball player, but I also like poetry. And Uncle Daddy, yes, made that horrible comment of just like, you don't want people to get the wrong idea. And it's like, get out of here, Uncle Daddy. And Mrs. Thornton got taken away. And before we talk about something else that comes back from season one. Oh, we'll talk about that.

Oh, we'll talk about that. Let's put a pin there. I just want to, just to make sure that I'm being somewhat accurate here about the Comic Magazine Association of America, which was formed in 1954 in response to widespread public concern over violence and horror imagery in comic books. So basically, this was like the Hays Code stuff, right, with censoring the comics. So the CCA is adopted, and then the Archie series kind of gets, gets, I'm going to read this quote. In his introduction to the Archie Americana series writing about the Comics Code, this comic book editor wrote, my first assignment as a new art. assistant was to remove cleavage and low-cut blouses on Katie Keene.

Whoa. And so there was this kind of like re, this like kind of cleaning up of the available comics and of Archie and the Archie universe was, you know, part of that. So this is, and it, it, there's, this is a fascinating, I'm going to spend more time reading about this. But so that's, that's to bring up the thing that I had mentioned before. That's insane. Don't take my cleavis!

Super, super, super fast. I mean, it's just, I continue to be blown away by how deep Riverdale is because it's so dumb, but also there's like 20 layers of, and we've been talking about all the different literary references, but like the fact that this entire show, the entire premise of the show, is a reference to this Hayes Code censorship stuff happening in the mid-50s and its relationship to the Archie. universe, that that's been going on, that it's been referencing that in a way this whole time and is now bringing that explicitly by doing this, what we thought was a kind of ham-fisted, awkward time travel back to the 1950s. And it actually seems like, in retrospect, this is kind of the

only way that Riverdale could have ended, you know, to have it go back to its roots. It's almost like we knew from the beginning that this was deep. We knew Riverdale was deep. That's why we did. That's why we spent so much time. That's why we spent all these hours and hours and hours watching it. Because we knew that this was going to happen. Although, if this didn't happen, what if it was like a continuation, what if the season was a continuation of Percival and we just wanted to die? Oh, my God.

Like, that would have been the worst possible way to end it. But anyway, if you are a person who knows more about this particular time period in history with the Hayes Code and comic book stuff, please let us know because my mind is blown. I'm learning about this on the fly, but it's really, really fun and interesting. but what happened to Archie's teacher, you say? Oh, the old lady who is fostering in him a love of poetry in a totally not inappropriate way. Miss Thornton is just having him stay after school. They're talking about poetry.

Archie's getting a big sense of meaning from being a creative writer. Great. And who shall come to replace Mrs. Thornton, but Mrs. Grundy. Grundy herself. Do you remember? Okay, if the name sparks memory, just go back to the first. first season when there was a questionable, very, very questionable relationship between Archie and Mrs. Grundy. And then I don't know why I will always remember the fact that she played the,

except I can't, I'll never remember the name of the, the instrument. She played some sort of chello. Was it a cello? It was a cello? It was a cello, I think. She played a cello, Jackie. She played a cello and that Hal, the Black Hood, killed her. with her own bow. And I don't know why I specifically remember that. I forgot about that. I just remember that they found her killed with her own bow, even though they didn't show it on the show.

I don't know why I remember that. And it's funny because as much as we really put season one of Riverdale up on a pedestal here, we talk all the time about how it was so fantastic. I do remember it. I had forgotten until I saw Ms. Grundy in this episode. I do remember watching season one and being this really uncomfortable with the way that they were dealing with the teacher, student sexual relationship. because it was 100% presented as like sexy and not abusive.

And then they kind of, I think, tried to fix that in season two by being like, ah, it was immoral, have the black could kill her. So like, okay. But definitely at first it was just Riverdow being like, what if a teacher was having hot sex with PJ Epa. And it's like, not okay. Not okay, Riverdale. But surely they must know now that that's not okay.

And anyway, she's back. So what fucked up shit is going to happen? Because she was making eyes at Archie. Wow. But then the second she was like, my husband is a poet. So you can, and then I was like, that husband ain't going to get in the way of you now teaching. Are you going to, is this going to be like, are we going to get uncomfortable again? I mean, it's a choice.

Why are you bringing Miss Grundy back if you're not going to have her fuck Archie again? Or at least try. And be like the poetry, like speaking, like a maestro. I think I'm just thinking of Vidal Mastro right now. But especially like being the guidance of poetry for Archie. But the whole thing of this episode is to be like, poetry's not bad. Like poetry's not like a dangerous, slippery slope. So for them to then be like, but what if a sexy teacher teaching poetry is like that's no, no, no, no, don't do that.

No, I know I shouldn't be excited. But like just the fact of just like the idea of sexy adults back in the show, I'm just like, yeah. And it's just so funny that it's just so funny that it's. It's like self-aware Riverdale. We're just in, we're fully in the world of self-aware Riverdale now, where maybe they've been self-aware the whole time and we just weren't quite sure. But definitely season seven is like, you know, what we'll do?

We'll bring back the extremely inappropriate teacher who fucked Archie. Like, let's do it. It's season seven, let's go out of the bang. So I know they're going to do something fucked up. And it might be good and it might be bad, but I like, I don't even care. I'm along for the ride. They could do whatever they want at this point,

and I will enjoy it. Well, also at one point, when talking about Omija, Cheryl says, I mean, it was really good in the first season, but then it really went downhill. I also felt that that was a meta, like, making fun of the reviews of Riverdale. I, I, but again, maybe I'm looking too far into the metaverse of Riverdale now. That tracks so explicitly that it must be. I can't believe both of those references went right over my head. I think I was too busy just emotionally recovering from the fact that Hermione was back.

Oh, and just looking so, and also, when they replace up top, they replace Miss. is Thornton when she gets taken out with Penelope Blossom. And can I just say Penelope Blossom just looking like fire personified. She walked in the room and it was like, damn, bitch, yes. She looked great. But also her and Clifford Blossom are always wearing red. And when red, why aren't they? Why does no one think they're commies? That's the thing. They come in. They're both dressed head to toe in like scarlet. And they're like, the red menace has come for Riverdale. And I'm like, why are you guys so dressed in red? Is that a choice? This is the theme of Riverdale, and especially if Riverdale Roundup is, was that a choice or an accident?

That's got to be a choice. It's got to be a choice. But like, you're really the evil ones, not communists. Yeah, like they're the bad menace. Yeah, even though they're not communists. It's got to be that. Yeah. I do want more pro-communism. I did complain about this a few episodes ago when they were like, Ray Bradbury or Brad Rayberry was a communist. And they're like, no, he wasn't. He just went to a few meetings out of curiosity. And I wanted them. to be like communism is good. It was good in the 1950s. And the panic about communism wasn't just bad because it was a fake panic, but also because it was bad to be, to hate the communist's ideas in the 1950s. And this episode didn't really touch on like communism itself other than just being a specter, you know, that comes from Revolutionary Cuba and is coming for for you in your books and in your poems and in your comics. But yes, they are the red menace. Like, Melope literally is dressed head to toe in red.

And I'm glad that she's not a teacher for long because I can't imagine them under the guidance of her, under her direction of having to do dramatic monologues from different plays. Because at one point, under the guise of, meha, I'm just coming to like hang out with you and meet your friends. We're talking about Hiram Lodge because Veronica brings in Hiram to the school to be like, like, daddy, these are my friends, as if he really gives a shit about meeting a bunch of teenagers. And of course, they're all like starstruck. And can I just say, Kevin wants to fuck the shit out of Hiram Lodge. And that was very funny interaction of him just being like, oh, hey, hello. Yes.

But also you have to remember, they've all been watching Omihaha for seven years. Right. According to this lore. Right. This is like Desi Arnaz walking into a high school at the height of I Love Lucy and everybody being like, oh shit. Which I can't believe I didn't even immediately draw the line that when I saw that Hiram Lodge was going to be on here, that it was going to be linked to communism because of

the Desi Arnaz. Like they're already like setting it up. Right. Like they are Lucy and Ricky. Right. And of course they're good because like wasn't there a big, there was, I'm sure there was a big issue with Desi Arnais. I was just wondering.

I was just thinking like, oh my God, now I've got to spend the afternoon researching Desi Arnaz because I don't, I mean, I remember learning about. obviously the McCarthyism and the Red Scare stuff, but like, I don't really know in terms of the specifics of what actors and writers really got the worst of it. But let's look up Desi Arnaz and the McCarthy stuff. Oh, no, I have to, we can't go down that. We can't go down that road because this, I just immediately started, I was immediately fascinated because this article opens up. The only thing read about Lucy is her hair, and even that is not legitimate. Desi Arnaz, responding to a report that his wife, Lucille Ball, was a communist.

And I immediately want to read this whole insane article about this. But we can't. Yeah, we can. It's going to be a discussion for next time. Apparently, he was quite conservative. He was a lifelong Republican, huge Nixon supporter. So I don't know whether any of the Hays Code stuff impacted them. Apparently it impacted Lucille Ball.

Lucille Ball. Interesting. Wow. Yeah. Now I just want to learn about the 1950s. Oh, Riverdale, you're inspiring us. So, so Hiram comes in. He becomes the director for the day in Penelope Blossom's class. Right.

And of course, Julian is up to bat for his dramatic monologue. Right. And can I just read, I've got a great, now I'm going to start peppering in some theories here. Because we've got some great Cheryl theories. We haven't even discussed Cheryl yet. All right, let's discuss Cheryl a little bit before we get into these theories. Yeah.

Because last week we were lamenting, losing HBIC version of Cheryl, right? And in this episode, Cheryl is given an ultimatum because someone told on Cheryl, remember when she kissed Tony at the Halloween show? And then last week, oh, not Edgar. What's her name? Ever and ever. Evelyn.

Evelyn Ever never. I was like, oh, I know it because of the E. Come on, Jackie. Come on, Brain. Evelyn Ever Never saw them kiss at Pops. So she gave her name in as a suspectable person with questionable morals. And of course, who finds out but Clifford Blossom. Uh-huh.

So Glyford Blossom goes to her and is like, you were on this list. And now I need you to look at this list of other teenagers and tell me, do they have questionable morals as well. Yes. And of course, who's on the list? Who's on the list? Not that list. It's Tony. It's Kevin. Right. It's Clay. And they keep saying name names, which again, is a reference to McCarthy. And, but in this case, it's not named communist. It's name the gays. And so they're like, all I have is my name. He did a great job with the model one. He did I'm telling you. He did a great. He did a great job with the model. He did great. And honestly, I wish when I had learned about the crucible that I had learned about it in the context of more recent relevant moral panics.

Because this episode of Riverdale does a great, if I was teaching high school English and had to teach the crucible right now, I would probably show this episode of Riverdale because it does a great job of being like, this is what a moral panic looks like. Whereas when I read the crucible, I read it devoid of context. And I was like, I don't, yeah, okay, witch hunt, but like I don't really, this is like from the 1600s. like, what do I care? But this episode is like, the crucible is like the parable of what happens when everybody gets all swept up in a moral panic. And here, now it's happening with communism. And so that's why Archie, it's why it's so satisfying to have Archie do the monologue.

See, it was so the opposite. I was so like, I was such a pathetic, like, I loved the Crucible. Really? I thought, like, I just thought it was so poignant. I thought it was just like, like being a 15, 16 year old. It's just like, this is what happens. Like, I really, we got really into the crucible. So, um, pathetically in the opposite direction.

But you're right, though. And I think it's also why I love, and like, when the second that I saw that the episode was called The Crucible and they were doing dramatic readings, it was like, please let somebody do the John Proctor monologue. I mean, we all know the monologue. I'm sorry, do we all know the monologue? I guess if you've studied the crucible and or you're a theater person, you know, the monologue. Right.

But so they're like, so Clifford Blossom is like, Cheryl, you know, tell us who's gay, basically. And she's like, I will never name names. And they're like, you don't have to. We already have the names. We have the list. We just need you to confirm the list. And she's like, no. And then they're like, what is our leverage?

We'll take away the vixens from you. And I'm sorry, Cheryl. Fucking give away the vixens. Who gives a fuck? Why did you think about that for a second? She's like, uh, not my vixenons. And then proceeds to. go tell her three fellow queers about this.

And God bless him, they're like, okay, well, we'll pretend to be straight so that you can keep the vixen. Keep the vixen. The stakes are simply not high enough in this. Like, I'm like, what the vix? Like, Cheryl has integrity. Cheryl, even in this season, Cheryl has proven herself to be like an active anti-racist and to be like trying really hard to like embrace her queerness. And so for her to be like, they can't take the vixens from me. Girl, give them up.

But so instead, they're like, all right, let's pretend to be straight. We'll do it for you, Cheryl. And so Cheryl and Kevin pretend to be a couple. And Clay and Titi pretend to be a couple. And they have a great scene where they're walking and slow motion down the hall, smooching and kissing. Why must I be a teenager in love? I was so happy that.

I was like, this is great. It's great. I love this episode. Absolutely great. And then, Like five minutes later, they're like, ah, it turns out that we're still under scrutiny for being queer. So why don't we just give up the vixen's and stand by our principals and not name names? And that's what they do.

So they did a little protest and they did a little trying to. And then there was some very like parable, what word am I looking for? Very moralistic lines of like, when you have to hide who you are, are you even really alive? or whatever, like a lot of like, you can't hide who you are, which is, you know, it's good. Yes. How may I live without my name, MJ? So they pretend to be straight for like literally five minutes. And then they're like, no, this is not going to work for us.

Let's go back to being out. Or at least, you know, as out as we can be in 1955. Right. And I am surprised, especially after last episode when Clifford Blossom was so agro towards Cheryl, like physically, I'm surprised that the vixians were the only thing that was going to be taken. Like, I'm surprised that was the only thing on the line. I thought they were going to send her the Sisters of Quiet Mercy. I know.

That's what I thought. That's the threat in River. When you live in Riverdale, you're always just one bad move away from a parent sending you to the Sisters of Quiet Mercy. And I would understand pretending to be or trying to pretend to be straight just so I don't have to go to the Sisters of Quiet Mercy. Totally. I get that. I actually thought that them deciding to pretend to be straight, was a very powerful choice.

And that, again, talk about like parallels to right now. Like it actually is really upsetting to think like, okay, what would you do if you were suddenly, if you suddenly found yourself in a time where you just could not be who you were without ramifications that were so awful that it would be safer and better to lie about it and to hide who you are. And I actually thought that them being like, all right, let's pretend to be straight, even though it just felt stupid because the stakes were the vixens. But I actually felt like it was very powerful for them to be like, sometimes you just can't be out.

And that's fine. Like it doesn't make you less queer to be like where we need to put ourselves back in the closet for this time to keep ourselves safe. Like I actually was kind of moved by the whole conversation that the four of them had. it just also was very dumb because it was about protecting Cheryl's relationship as the leader of the cheerleaders. But, and then it was nice that they then decided like, let's just be who we are, regardless of the consequences. But yeah, Clifford has massive power over Cheryl. All of these kids are children in 1955. They have zero rights, you know.

Especially then. I mean, it's just, it's so, in thinking about the actual, like, you know, how many people actually went through. this, too, is just so devastating. And like, it does bring up all that of just like how many rights they did that young people and just people in general didn't have in 195, even though we're watching it be stripped from us as we speak. I know. And now I'm looking at this article about Lucille Ball. And the whole thing was that she had registered as a communist back in 1936, 20 years early, 20 years before, you know, almost 20 years before the House on American Activities Committee started. And so she had registered as a communist back then.

And it was used against her, you know, almost two decades later in her career, even though she said it was like not really a big thing then. I did it because my grandfather was a socialist. And like, again, when you think about the present day, it's pretty fucking scary and relevant to be like something that you, something that was, I mean, there was a lot of communist panic in the 1930s too. So it's not like it was ever like fine to be a communist. but the idea of kind of like making a choice that then because the political climate shifts a decade or two later and suddenly your life, your career, your public safety, whatever is fucked, you know, like what happened, what they try, you know, trying to destroy Lucille Ball because she had registered as a communist almost 20 years earlier.

And that I also think is really scary because what's happening right now in the present day is we just experienced a brief little window of expanded rights for queer people. And now that window was slamming shut and those rights are being taken away. So everybody who felt like, oh, it's safe to come out or I'm seeing other people coming out and I'm realizing something about myself in this time is now like, oh, shit, oh, shit, now they're trying to make it so what I just realized about myself is no longer something I can actually embrace. And so that's why I thought it was so powerful for them to just be like, yeah, we can't, we can't be out right now. We cannot, we have to hide, you know, because that, that fucking happens, you know.

Yeah. And now I do want to talk about some Cheryl theories. First of all, I want to give a quick shout out to Haley because I don't remember this at all. And I love this being brought back. This is about Clifford's wigs. My first thing is more just observations last reminder about Clifford Blossom and his terrible terrible wigs. Back in season one, when Polly is pregnant with J.J.'s Babies, she goes to stay with and spy on the blossoms. While she's there, she

stumbles on a room full of wigs and has a scary confrontation with Clifford about snooping. But in true Riverdale fashion, I don't know if they ever really explain why he has a room full of so many red wigs. Whoa, that is not something that I could have ever remembered. Wow. Never. I never would remember that. So I just want to say, Haley, thank you so much. And also, I love this Cheryl theory. Just a theory about Cheryl in her lack of bombshell confidence that we know and love. Obviously, there's many reasons, the homophobia, her dad. But what if Julian is also a part of the problem?

She had a good, loving relationship with Jason. And with Julian, not so much. Maybe having a brother so crude and terrible has made Cheryl a shell of her true bad bitch self. I hope we get a little bit of the HBO back soon. just a dumb theory but thought it would be fun to share. Thank you, Haley. And I want to say, I want to add on to your theory, Haley. And I'm not adding on to it.

Michaela is adding onto your theory because this is, it takes, it just turns it up because it also, their theory also has to do with Cheryl and Julian. Okay. We all miss the badass, confident bitch that carried seasons of the show Cheryl. And I have a theory about why Cheryl is so much more meek in this season. Does anyone else remember when Nana Rose told Cheryl she had absorbed Julian in the womb back in season four. Cheryl takes a test, finds out she did not, but maybe the test was wrong or sabotaged. Hear me out. Is it possible that in this universe with Julian instead of JJ,

Cheryl had actually absorbed JJ in the womb instead? Maybe Cheryl was a badass bitch before because she had absorbed some of Julian's evil triplet energy in previous seasons, but in this season she absorbed JJ instead, making her a more meek and quiet character. Yeah, it's far out. I'm not sure it makes any sense, but it would explain why Cheryl isn't the same this season. Hey, it's Riverdale. There are no rules.

We love you too, Michaela. I just want to say, love this back to back. Thank you, Haley. Thank you, Michaela, for your Cheryl theories. Love them both. The amount of faith that people have. I just love the amount of faith that it takes to be like, maybe this extremely weird thing from season four is now being realized

in season seven. I hope so, man. I truly hope so. That is so funny. I do also love just Zinn, who wrote in a couple weeks ago, also just said, also did you all think it was weird the way the show put the River Vixons on the same level of loss as Tony, Clay, and Kevin? Like, couldn't Cheryl have also just been worried about what happened if she didn't give the names and she was outed? Which, you're right. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Using the Vixen's as the stakes was a, we've barely even seen the Vicksons. We've barely even seen the vixen's all season. Like, who gives a fuck? But I also get that you're in high school and things are... And it's your everything. It's your everything. You know, so that is somewhat real. But not when, not when McCarthyism has come from your high school and you're just trying to survive.

And not when they're coming for all the comic books. So like you had briefly said earlier, all the newsstands that everyone was now starting to be banned from selling PEP comics because PEP Comics is un-American. And that's also the buzzword for this episode. It's un-American, which was also the buzzword of 1955. So they're really bringing, oh, it's on-American to do these things. And so, but remember that Ethel and Jughead

had just written, this was Ethel's first ever done comic. And she wanted to go buy it from a newsstand. So they find out that it's un-American. They go to the manager over at the Pep Comics, and they're like,

what are we going to do? He's like, I don't know. The newsstands keeps sending the papes back to me. I don't know what we're going to do in it. We're just going to weather the storm. And of course, we talked about this. This is real life of what happened with other comics outside of Archie Comics, apparently.

And so what do Ethel and Jugged do? But they take a bunch of the stacks of the comics that aren't allowed to be sold and they create an underground shop through Pops which poor pop he doesn't want any trouble in his store why do they have to do it at pops and so they start selling illegal comic books to other students and they have this whole riga roll set up and again just like all i could feel from ethel and i know that i should drop it and i think i'm just saying this as always the plus size best friend that was in love with her best friend that never wanted to have and the best friend never wanted to have sex with me yeah

That all I could feel is, like, Ethel's heart grew full sizes that day. Every time they hang out and, like, just like, the look on her face of how happy she is that Jughead is working with her and that they're in this together. I know. I know. Girl, and he's still not going to kiss you. I know. I know. I know.

Poor Ethel, they really are hitting hard her love for Jughead. I also spent some time this episode just looking at them and being like, I wonder, because they do seem to have good chemistry. as actors, but also, like, Cole Spouse appears to be, like, you know, at least a dick in terms of his public persona and his, as a boyfriend. But I did have a moment in this episode where I was like, I kind of want to stand them in real life. Like, I just want them. I just, I'm like really standing them. I want it. They're spending so much time together. And it's really nice. And, like, of course, platonic friends are also nice. And I love, I always, like, want more, like, different gender platonic friends to be portrayed on TV shows. And so we can, we can appreciate it for that.

but I do wish that Ethel could get some. Dilton Doily got, he didn't get any action, but at least we found out he has a big dick. Let's do something sexy for Ethel. I'm also really happy that it wasn't Dilton Doyle, because what ends up happening with their underground sales of comics is that at some point, of course, somebody blabs, and so they set up like a sting operation.

So they sold some papes to, it seemed like a Boy Scout of some sort. And it made me think of, I was like, I wonder if he's one of the, orphan boy scouts that live in the woods. Remember that storyline? Yes, I do remember the orphans of Riverdale. I sure do. Evil orphans. Evil orphans that live in the woods. Now, I wonder if he was a part of that, and maybe that's why he sold out Jughead and Ethel. But of course, who walks in? But Dr. Worthers and Principal Featherhead and Sheriff Keller and they are the heads of stopping all of men. How unsexy can they make such a sexy sheriff Kelly.

I know. He's so hot, but he's so not hot in this season. It's insane. I know. It's like they've done something to him on purpose to make him seem so much more like a scary 1950s dad. He's really scary, like in a realistic and effective way. I know.

I'm scared of Sheriff Keller. Yes. So am I. But he's just so attractive. Yeah. He is hot. And I still think he's hot in this season. I do.

But he just keeps reminding me of Chris Cooper in American Beauty. He just has that like really bad man from the 1950s thing. Well, especially ever since that scene when he finds out that Kevin is gay in that scene when he's just like sitting in the dark drink and whiskey. Yeah. It really upset me. Yeah. It's really, he's really, that actor is like, it's finally time for me to show my range on Riverdale, you know. I mean, and he's showing it.

He's definitely doing an effective job. Absolutely. Now, speaking of Dr. Worthers, I've got quite a theory for you. J.R. writes in and says, I have a theory why they named the creepy school therapist Dr. Wothers. Remember way back when, when Betty was trying to figure out her serial killer genes and did a had like a memory regression, and in the scene, belly kills her cat with a rock. Betty thinks that she, that means she's going to be dark, Betty, but as a murderer, not as a sex thing. It's later revealed that it was actually her father, Hal Cooper, coercing Betty, to kill the cat. The cat's name, Carmel.

Remember, I remember she said Carmel. I did not like the way that Lily Reinhardt said Carmel. Carmel. Carmel. Carmel. Carmel. I theorize that Dr. Worther's name is a callback to Betty's trauma around poor Carmel. Not only is it a callback, I think it might be foreshadowing about how Dr.

Wurthers is going to use his position of power to traumatize Betty and maybe act. activate her serial killer jeans. Thank you, J.R. I think it is quite a stretch, and I love the stretch. But you know, that's the thing. You know that even the names, as dumb as they are, usually are a symbol. Could be something. So why Dr. Wothers?

Is it just because it's funny name, or is there some sort of symbolism going on? I love the stretches that are happening. Thank you. And thank you for sending the stretches. We love them. Very good. We absolutely love it. Absolutely killing it.

So essentially what happens with Jughead and Ethel is they stopped selling the comics, but they were really proud of themselves. And then they have like a cute moment in the end. I think that's what it is. They're like, they're setting us up to stand them. It's not our fault. Yes.

They just have these great moments together. Yes. Yes. 100%. I mean, They are the dream. They are the team that Betty and Jughead wants for. I know.

Because it used to be Betty and Jughead doing the blue and gold. And that was kind of what brought them together. and now Ethel and Jugheader that team. And I'm glad that we're getting more Ethel. And I do really like their friendship and their relationship. I just want them, I want Ethel to not be sad anymore. I know. To be thriving.

And I'm so glad she's not the Sisters of Quiet Mercy, but something tells me that we haven't heard the last of the Sisters of Quiet Mercy because if there's some girls that are begging to be sent there, it is Cheryl, it is Betty, it is Veronica. That's what I'm afraid of. That's what I'm scared of. I'm scared of all of them just getting it. And it's possible.

that we might get that plot line that they all get sent and then they all break out. Yes. Which I'm here for another jail break. That's great. Yes. Honestly, if all three of them get sent together, that's kind of a best case scenario. Yeah, I mean, we are, do we know how many episodes there are in the season? I think this was this.

Nope. It is so hard to be like fly and blind. You know, that thing when you're like watching a streaming show and you just haven't looked at the whole Netflix is good because it'll be like, we'll show you how many. episodes are left. A lot of the other apps, you don't even know where you are. I'm trying to finish freaking Perry Mason right now, and I'm like, I don't know how many episodes are left. It just doesn't show me right away. And I don't have time to look because I need to use that time to get through the episode of Perry Mason that takes so long to get through. And so I don't know,

and when you don't know, you don't even, it is a real power of the slog situation. And you don't know how close you are. This season of Riverdale, not a power of the slug. But it's so hard to to not know how much left could happen. Are we only halfway through? Because I think we're at about episode 10. Are there about to be 12 more episodes because so much could happen. But we're used to a streaming arc. So at this point, it seems like we should be hitting the climax.

But I don't think we are. I think we got a lot left. It does seem, like, again, I don't watch the teasers for the next one, but I do follow Roberta and Garry Sakasa on Instagram. And it does seem that the next episode might be the musical episode, though. So I hope you can be excited for that. I do want to say real quick, too, I did notice I saw your little, I saw you, Riverdale, I saw what you were doing, because at one point, Veronica, because, well, I don't even think we ended up saying what happened with Veronica and Hiram.

Right. Because essentially, Hiram asked Veronica to sign an affidavit saying, I wasn't hanging out with Vidal Mastro in Cuba. I was actually with my daughter buying Cuban cigars. Right. So, but then there's all these pictures that ex-fbi current FBI?

I don't know. Maybe Glenn is just still Glenn. But whatever that agent was that was following Hiram essentially has these pictures of him and Vidal Mastro. But he also was with a woman in these pictures

that obviously he was there with. And so Veronica's like, What's her name, Daddy? Honey? And he goes, no, it's Kelly, which is also the name of his wife in real life. And also played his mistress in the past. On Riverdale? Yeah, remember that one episode that she was his mistress? And then I just remember she had like a gun in her little purse. I don't remember that. I'm sorry that I don't remember Kelly Ripah being on Riverdale. I believe you. Oh, yeah, one episode. One episode special. Oh, that would be so much fun. So does that mean we're going to get more Hiram?

Oh, God willing, but we now know, oh, poor Miha, she found out that mommy and daddy are getting divorced and, oh, Miha is ending after seven seasons. So we'll find out what happens to Veronica. But she did end up signing the affidavit saying, all right, daddy, I will say that I was with you in Cuba. But you're going to give me the Pembroke. And he does. Yeah. He does. And now she's got a home no matter what, which good for her.

Yeah. Can you imagine being that? Like usually, I know that she's a she-wolf of Wall Street. But there are sometimes when her, you know, business career goals, I'm just like, wow, that's a lot. But this was one of the first times that I was just like, good on you. Hell yeah. Get that house. Good on her as for Veronica as a character.

And also great way to just be like, okay, if she doesn't have any people, parents for the rest of the season, it's fine because she has a house. Because she has a house. She's got nowhere. She's got some word to say. Yeah, that kind of, that piece of the conflict is now resolved. Shit, I forgot. What?

Archie and Veronica kissed. Archie and Veronica kissed. Yeah. How about that? That was such a weird, out of nowhere moment. Sorry, I was just about to end the episode and I can't not bring up the fact that they were just like in, like, in the hallway. And he's just standing there.

And then she's just like talking to Archie Kins and then she kisses them on the cheek. And then they look at each other. And then they kiss. And I was just like, in the middle of the. school day. I couldn't even imagine having a kiss in the middle of the school day, especially a first kiss. I know. I know. That was exciting. It did feel like completely out of nowhere. It felt like, it felt like self-aware Riverdale just being like, we remember that these two used to be endgame. There has been no establishment of that relationship this season, aside from

Veronica being like, ooh, I like him. But like Archie hasn't even given Veronica the time of day. He's been too busy with Betty, you know. So it did feel a little bit. of nowhere, but of course we're here for it. We want more kissing. There wasn't that much kissing in this episode, and it was a surprising and fun kiss. It just got me, like, got me all horny out of nowhere. I was like, whoa. Not that I want them to be together, because now I want Veronica, and Betty and Archie together. Yeah, I mean, that's what, that's what we want. We want. That's what we need. At least a threesome between those ones. I really want a foursome. I'm sorry, I do want drughead there. I know that it's unpopular. I know that it's unpopular. I know. I can't help

Remember the scene when they were all in the hot tub and we were just screaming? Oh, I'll never forget. That's... There's a lot about Riverdale that I have forgotten and that I will forget. There are some scenes like the four of them in a hot tub that I will not forget. Burned into my brain. And I hope that this episode wasn't burned into your brain, except for the book burning at the end. That made Jackie cry.

Oh, my God, I cried about the book burning because they burned all the comics. It was very upsetting. It is sad. It's very sad and it's very scary. And thank you guys so much for joining us on this episode of Riverdale Roundup. I had a great time today. And I'm glad and I hope that my secret of crying at Riverdale is safe with everyone that lives here. I had a great time. If you are a person who can continue to shed like real historical knowledge on all of the truths and symbols and references and illusions being dropped in this season, please let us know because I loved all this. but I don't remember I never really learned about 1950s history in school. I don't remember a lot of it. A lot of the literary references are going right above my head

and I'm really enjoying people pointing out. I feel like I'm learning a lot. And isn't that a surprise? I do not expect to be learning a lot about our country's history in season 7 of Riverdale. And here we are. And they're doing a great job. They're doing a blast, man.

They're doing a blast is what I say. Thank you guys so much. And I think that we have a music. musical episode next week. So, we're going to be coming in hot next week. So prepare yourselves. Yes. Oh, thank you so much, MJ. Thank you everybody. And we'll be back next week. Bye. This show is made possible by listeners like you. Thanks to our ad sponsors. You can support our shows by supporting them. For more shows like the one you just listened to, go to lastpodcastnetwork.com.