Page 7 - Riverdale Roundup Ch. 132: It's Not Darkness, It's Just Horniess

Episode Date: July 22, 2023

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Dot com, baby. MJ. What? It's not zero spook. Not a second of creepy deeps in this episode. And I don't know. I guess this is the first episode. I think that I was a little let down by.

Yeah. And not because of the episode itself. but just because I was left wanting, Mom, Mom. Yeah. How do I like it? How do I like it? I want it creepy.

I need it at least 10% creepy. Yeah. Yeah. I am so glad that you feel this way, Jackie, because obviously we watched the episode separately, although I dream of someday watching them together. Oh, someday. But, ooh, maybe this weekend when I'm in L.A.

We can watch this guy. Okay. Sorry, Jeff. You got to watch Riverdale. But yeah, I was watching this morning at 5 in the morning, which is my Riverdale time, great time to enjoy a C.W. drama. It's a rough time to watch it. And I was like, this episode is about Miss Teen Dream Riverdale or Teen Queen, whatever.

And it's nice. It's our Girl Power episode. All the girls are in solidarity with one another. And it was very nice. And it was all fine. And I just didn't feel. feel any stirrings. There was no spook. There was no kissing. No sex. Zero. It was just it was like the stakes were incredibly low. And it was well done. And listen, I'll watch

those bitches. At this point, I'll watch them do whatever. And like this season remains stellar. It was just like this episode, it was once again, we remember a lot of episodes in this 22 season arc that the networks have. And listen, it's a, the writers and the actors are on strength.

So we want to maintain shows like this. Yes. Filler can be great. Yes. However, I wished there was a little bit more spook and a little bit more sex. And I will say, give it up for the fits in this episode. Oh, yeah. That's what I found myself being drawn. I talked more about the fits of this episode to Jeff than I did about the episode itself. When they all came out in the gowns and when they were each having their gowns, you know, put on them at Molly Ringwald's shop, I was just like, yes, yes, okay, I'm loving it.

Yes. Yes. I love all their individual colors. Really dug like the yellow on Ethel. Like I love an, oh my God, Titi's dress. Yes. Don't even get me started. I was like, I want that dress now.

Yes. How do I get that dress? Is Hot Topic going to start selling it? Because if they are, please, you must tell me that this is going to be true. I have to have that dress. Oh, my God. Before one of our shows, this last run in St. Louis, our show was at a comedy club. That was an amazing comedy club, by the way.

Helium and St. Louis absolutely loved it. Oh, unbelievable. One of the best comedy clubs. If you are ever in St. Louis, go to Helium because it is one of the best run comedy clubs we have been to. Absolutely. The staff was all just. amazing. And it was like, it didn't at all feel like it was attached to a mall, but it was. So it was like we, Jake needed something, needed a costume. And we went, Jake and I went in search of it.

And we were like, we went, we like ran up to the mall directory and we looked for a hot topic and they had a hot topic. And we went to the hot topic. And I just want to say, I had not been in a hot topic since I was probably about 19. And man, they're great. Oh, yeah. My, My mall in Dubuque, Iowa didn't have a hot topic. We had to travel to the bigger mall, the Davenport Mall, to get to the hot topic. How did you survive? A good question. Barely is the answer.

I mean, it was, whenever I would go to a hot topic as a teenager, I was always like, there's others out there like me. Of course, I didn't even have that weird a taste, you know. It was like, there's others who like Green Day, you know, but it was like thrilling. Oh, yeah. Because that's where the little punks go and the gotts and the weirdos and the anime people and it's all together in one place. It's the only spot for teens,

or at least you think it's the only spot, or it was the only spot when we were teens. And they have so much Riverdale merchandise, which is very important. Oh, yeah, dude. Oh, yeah. But yeah, so this was a great episode for fashion and for sisterhood.

But remember the episode in, I think it was the first season, or it was the second season, where they all, like, get behind, like, they have, which I appreciate when the girls come together. Or like, no, we will not stand for this. And I did love that, except for the fact that it was about Miss Riverdale Teen Queen,

which, I mean, I will say, Ms. Riverdale Teen Queen gives, like, a scholarship and, like, all of these insane things that this person was going to get. So I understand, like, wanting to be in the competition. Don't get me wrong. Right. But, yeah, so that was how they worked around the fact that none. of these characters would actually give a shit about Ms. Riverdale Teen Queen, especially a beauty pageant that was being run by Alice Cooper. All of them would hate it, you know, so I think that that

was also a little bit hard about the conceit. And they did acknowledge that. Like, Betty was like, well, I don't want to do that anyway, so why would I care? And then Alice, like, lists off the, the incentives and the prize. And one of them was like a full college scholarship. And so that's why she was like, okay, I should do it for that. But yeah, that's. But yeah, that's a, is also like Titi, you're going to tell me Titi cares about a beauty pageant. It just doesn't ring honest, like for any of them because they're all kind of like, and not there's anything wrong with beauty pageants, but the whole thing in 1955, like they spend the episode kind of talking about the problems with beauty pageants, presumably those problems being, you know,

quite apparent in 1955. They talk about how they're segregated. They used to be segregated, which is totally true. There's a great you're wrong about, about, um, Vanessa Williams and Miss America and integrating, you know, Miss America. Oh, there's also a new Miss America doc out right now that I've been wanting to see, too. Oh, really? Yeah. I'm looking it up right now because I'm going to, I've been wanting to talk about it. Secrets of Miss America.

So, yeah. Secrets of Miss America. Okay. And now I want to know. And it's, it is kind of interesting to like learn about the history of beauty pageants. But yeah, it is also right. Like, why are all these girls suddenly like, caring about a beauty contest run by like everybody's least favorite mom in town

Alice Cooper who is super oppressive but they deal with it but it was so insane because usually in Riverdale all right we've got Miss Riverdale teen queen but then we've got four or five other side plots going on yes I was just kind of bowled over this was literally the only plot of this episode I think that was the other thing that was so weird is that they kind of tried to be like, this is this big theme episode about this beauty pageant, but there was no B plot, no C plot. We did not see Archie or Jughead except for at the very end when they were all watching the pageant. We're all sucking back on milkshays going like, yeah, girls, yeah, girls, shake them, girls.

And I was really, it was really nice, spoiler alert, Ethel wins the beauty pageant, and we'll talk about it. But it was nice that they all cheered for her when she won. All the boys did. I was like, yeah, you guys are all. friends. And so that was nice. But yeah, it was like, honestly, I spent this episode being like, we have been asking for like better for Ethel. And, and I almost feel like it was like Riverdale, the universe. I'm not saying the writers, but like the universe of Riverdale like heard us and tried

to answer us by like, okay, we'll do better for Ethel. But this was not what I wanted for Ethel. And that's- You want her to win a beauty pageant? That's the thing. I don't want her to win a beauty pageant, especially the way she did. And everyone, okay. Can I ask you a question about this episode also that kind of dogged me? Please. Please. So this episode is, and I know sometimes people roll their eyes at me, MJ, on this show, because sometimes I bring up, you know, identity politics in a way that not everybody loves.

I appreciate you. No, I want you to do this stuff. I try to tone it down and I try not to do it too much. I don't want to be annoying, obviously. But, you know, sometimes if you're talking about media and culture, things like identity politics come up. And so Riverdale has been, has spent a lot of this season talking about, you know, race and gender and sexuality, right? There's been a ton in this season about the characters themselves talking about. And one of the things T.T says right away is, of course, I will never win this page.

And I am a black woman. Like, and I think that speaks to the history of segregation in these, you know, types of contests and whatever. And so they've talked very explicitly about race and racism. They've talked very explicitly in this season about homophobia and, you know, like that aspect of identity. Did it seem strange to you in this episode, the way they talked about Ethel? Yes. And they never said like it's because she's fat, right? Or because she is plus size or whatever, kind of, however they might have wanted to talk about the identity politics of why Ethel will never win this contest.

they danced around it in this way that felt so strangely indirect to me instead of, and I'm saying fat in a reclamation way, right? Like, why couldn't there have been a moment where they're like, she even says. Right, that is not a bad word. Right, right. It's just a just a neutral. Right. And so like, and I know that something I talk with my kids a lot about is like, we use that word in a, it's in how you say it also.

In a value neutral way. Right. But of course, I also try to be careful with how I use that word because it's not mind to reclaim, you know, and I also know it's a word that can still really be weaponized and used to hurt people. Yes. But so, but in any case, I actually truly trust the writers of Riverdale to engage in some level of conversation around this.

There's a ton of discourse out there if you want to, like, figure out respectful ways to talk about, you know, body size inclusion and body love and all of these things. And Ethel has a moment in this episode She's listing all the reasons why she could never be the, why she could never win a beauty contest. And she doesn't say, it's obviously hinted at, but she never says. Also, it's because like the way my body looks

isn't the way that society wants my body to look. And I just wish that they had said it because like, it just seemed so weird to have it be this like specter of like, well, we're all, we all know why Ethel could never win this contest, but we're not going to say it. And that, to me, felt worse than not than saying it. But I wanted to ask you your opinion about that.

Isn't it strange that they never just said it's because everybody in our society wants women's bodies to look a certain way and my body doesn't look that way? I just wish that they had said it, the way that they're saying, we live in a racist society. We live in a homophobic society. I wish they had been like, we live in a fatphobic society. And they didn't. Yes. I also wish that. Because if it were a different show and like from, like, from.

this season. Like if it wasn't a different season, I understand them glossing it over. Totally. But this specific season, they're actually talking about big topics. Right. That I thought that this is where this episode was going to go. I thought it was going to be an actual like good, honest conversation about fat phobia, especially when it comes to like beauty pageants and things like that. And just like the idea of just the normal high school experience and out and beyond it. Yes. And like the fact that like it, like, it's goes to show that it goes beyond it because Alice Cooper feels the same way of like, she's not going to be in this show when they go. Because essentially what happens is the girls, because

Midge gets kicked out of the pageant because Alice Cooper figures out that she's expecting, which also they deal with that as well. They talk about teen pregnancy as well. Right. And they send her, which we do have to talk about her, that they send her off to the sisters of quiet mercy, by the way. I know. What is their plan with that, by the way, because she's still pregnant. Because she is still pregnant and I don't know what's going to happen. But that's why the girls were like, if you don't have Ethel be a part of this, we're going to strike from the beauty pageant. And that was nice.

That was a nice moment of girl solidarity. Yes. But they don't ever, like even in that very intimate scene between, I thought we were going to get it in an intimate scene between Betty and Ethel when they were talking about. the pageant and they were talking, they were just having like a good quiet scene and it wasn't brought up. And I think that that puts so much more shame on the topic. Yes. Rather than just talking about it. Yes. And it actually, it does suck. Yeah. It sucks that of all of these huge topics to talk about that this is still something that is not like it's not deemed worthy or it's still deemed to like, not that I'm going to bring it up.

Yes. That I don't understand. I've got it surprised. It felt like such a strange choice to not say it because it wasn't like they avoided it. They all but said it. And it's like, yes, there's literally this long conversation between Betty and Ethel where Ethel is like, and it was a great, you know, touching scene. She's like, I'll never be.

Of course I would never win this. Like, this is not, I'm not the type of girl who's supposed to do this. And then she names all the reasons. And she's like, my parents were killed. I draw, I draw comic books. And it's like, okay, sure. But obviously, that's not actually the reason. Yes.

Right? The reason is that your body does not look the way that society wants women's bodies to look. Right. That's the reason. Like, and I'm sorry to get so heated on Riverdale Roundup. No, dude. Thank you. It was like this weird specter.

And it honestly felt worse to me. It felt stranger to not say it. And that wasn't their only. opportunity. They also, again, like you said, they had this, this time where, where Alice Cooper is saying, well, she's just not the type of girl. And, and, you know, and so to spend basically the entire episode giving Ethel this like, well, then in the end, she gets to win after all. And she gets this moment and she, like, sings a song and she's a really good singer. And of course, she looks beautiful. But, like, why are you going to put so much effort into being like, well, Ethel's, like, you're going to cast this beautiful, dynamic, radiant actress. who is also like a fat person. And you're going to spend this whole episode talking about how she's different and she's not the type of girl to win beauty contests. And you're never going to say what it is that is being put on her. Like, and the, it is like absolutely a form of oppression.

So why are you talking about other types of oppression so openly? Yeah. And like you said, if this was a, if this was saved by the bell or whatever in the 90s, I wouldn't expect anything from them. But it's because Riverdale is being like this season, we are talking about. the various ways that people couldn't be themselves at this time. Right. And people are kept down and stories are told about them and not by them and et cetera. And so why, like, it was just so strange to me to be like, this is basically a story about a,

you know, a fat person winning a beauty contest, but they never, and why that was such a surprise, but they never say why. And they don't let her say it. And it just felt like such a last. They should have let her say it in that scene with Betty. And I don't, that's where it went. That's where it's supposed to go. Yes.

She should have had a moment where she was like, Betty, you know why I can't win. And if Betty was too squealy to say it, sure. Like, of course it is a difficult, like, I can understand. Betty's character would be like, I'm not going to say it. I'll say it's because your parents were murdered. But like, Ethel could have been like, my body doesn't look the way people want it to. You know, like it, even if they didn't want to use the word fat or whatever, like,

there could have been a way. where they could have been like, there are beauty standards, you know, there are beauty standards. And there always have been. And still are. And those beauty standards are, exactly, and very much still are just like a lot of the conversation, they've done a good job of being like racism isn't over. Racism wasn't something that only was in 1955. Homophobia wasn't something that's only in 1955. It would have been a great time to be like, the beauty standards for women in this society are so oppressive that I'm not even considered a person if you come to who should join this contest. Talk about it, you know, like, it would be so powerful to talk about it.

Or talk about the fact that, like, they got that beautiful gown for her, and maybe this is asking too much. I know that it's still Riverdale, but like, do you know how difficult it would have been for Ethel to find that dress for her? That's not something that we like, that's a part of fat culture that people don't think about that. Now, obviously, much easier, but in 195, of course. Where does she go to find an evening gown that's going to fit her that would look that good on her?

It would be really difficult. And they literally have a character. Archie's mom is a dress shop person. They could have had a great conversation with Molly Ringwald being like, hey, you are beautiful and I'm really sorry that there's nothing like that Alice Cooper is showing the other girls that like will fit you

in a way that makes you feel beautiful. but like I'm here and I'm a tailor and I'm a dressmaker for some reason. I'm supposed to be a lawyer. But now I'm a dressmaker. And like it would have been so nice to have her be like a little, you know, to have this little conversation with her and be like, I'm going to find a dress that fits you and makes you look beautiful. Like and and, you know, it must be really hard for you to find things that fit you because,

again, our society doesn't value you just because of the way that your body is shaped. There would have been so, it just feels like such a. valuable thing and so ever present in current society. And again, I'm not saying all these conversations that are happening are like always good. It's like still a very clunky thing that people are kind of working their way through to talk about, you know, body love and self-acceptance and all those things. But it felt so strange to all but say it and then not say anything. They never said anything about her weight, her body, her size. And yet they just kept being like, well, not her. And so it felt like weirdly re-influenced.

forcing. Yes. I'm glad that you brought this up because even just thinking of like being there in that scene when all the girls are trying the dresses on, I'll like it. I think it was like, man, I've been there before when you go like when I would go prom dress shopping with my friends, but like I couldn't do any of the prom dress shopping with them. So I would just like hold stuff for them while they would try stuff on because like I had to go to separate places because nothing fit me. Right. Bring that experience into this episode. It would have made the episode. Because then it would have been like, rather than just a fluff piece, it's like, okay, well, it's like the Emmett Till episode where like, okay, not a lot moved forward in the plot, but they're dealing with big topics. So I understand. And not to mention, not only would that be meaningful for people who were watching Riverdale, especially teenagers, but whoever, we know that probably is mostly millennials who watch Riverdale.

It's all people are age. But if that had been, like, how nice would it have been, right, for people to see it like to see a scene where it's like, oh, yeah, like, well, I, because of the way my body is, I can't even shop at the same places you guys. And like, that sucks. And this, and it makes me feel like othered and whatever. Like, and it would have just made for a more interesting, this episode. Yeah, it just would have made for a more interesting episode. This episode was, was very nice, but it felt like it just wasn't, I don't know what this episode was kind of meant to do, except give Ethel a win, but it felt like a just kind of a condescending win.

Empty win. An empty win. Because to jump forward, she does, she does, she has this great moment at the beauty contest where she sings and she looks great and she's a beautiful singer and she looks beautiful. Great singing voice, beautiful moment. But beautiful gowns. It always makes me think of Aretha Franklin talk about Taylor Swift. Beautiful gowns. Beautiful gowns.

But lovely gowns. And then at the end, she was. wins and then afterwards, Ethel wins, and then afterwards Betty and Alice are talking about it. And Betty is like, well, are you mad that I didn't win? And Alice is like, well, you did win. But I just lied and said Ethel was. Yeah, she shows her to think. And I don't even really understand why she did that. So can we talk about the fact that the three judges, there were three judges and two of them were principal featherhead and with Dr. Wurthers? I know. And I was like, why are they beauty pageant judges? That I guess probably must have been all men.

who judge those beauty pageants forever, right? Just like find the oldest creepiest men in town. But you got no other dudes that could do this? Also, this episode was very Hal Cooper heavy. And yet, did we get any serial killing? Zero. Nine. How are you going to bring it out?

Hal Cooper for this much episode and not have any serial killing? And also make him, so I guess he really is not a serial killer anymore because, like, he's just straight up scared of his wife. Because essentially the girls are like, we are. not doing this pageant unless Ethel is a part of it. And Alice is like, no, not saying because she's fat, but saying because she's fat. And then

they're like, we'll go to Daddy instead. So Veronica and Betty go to Hal Cooper and they're like, Daddy, we want to do the pageant. And Ethel has to be involved. And he's like, oh, I got to talk to your mother about it. And like, it's very, so I guess he's not

a serial killer anymore. I don't think he'd have time. I think he'd be too scared of his wife. Yeah, it was just like, there was, I thought, and it's, there was so much Ethel and the only real mention, we got a lot of mention of how Ethel's parents were murdered. We got like her having like a vision of them in the audience, seeing her win. It made me so sad because that was her daydream. So essentially, she begins this episode as Alice Cooper's assistant for the pageant. So she's doing all this. So that's, so that's, why she's around all of the pageant rehearsals and everything. And essentially, she has this daydream where she wins the pageant. Her parents are still alive. And then she also has Jughead Jones as her boyfriend. Even in the daydream. He doesn't kiss her on the lips. Thank you.

Even in her daydream, she doesn't get to get kissed on the mouth. It was like the most platonic fucking kiss ever. What is the problem? Cole Spouse lay one on her. Come on. Dear God. Yes. Oh my God. Yes. I'm like, please. Beni Cooper is over here having sex montages with every member of the cast. Yes. Let Ethel kiss someone on the lips for Christ's sake. Please give her someone to kiss even if it's Dildendoyle. I'll watch it. It's like can we not even let the plus size woman kiss someone? No. What is happening? You. What is happening? here. Why is everything about her sad? It's not, it's not good. It's not like everything's about her. And they didn't even say everything about you is sad because of the way society treats you. It's just like, no, everything about you is just actually sad. You're sad. Yuck.

What? Why didn't Colesprouse kiss her? I'm blaming him. I don't know who to blame. I blame him too. Oh, that made me so angry. We could have had a hot, steaming, sexy kiss between them in a daydream. It would have been perfect. Even if you're not going to give us that in the plot, whatever, I kind of get it because you need to have, I don't know, he doesn't have any other fucking love interest, but I guess that's because his love interest is still being the guardian angel of Riverdale. So fine.

You're not going to have them kiss and get it on in the real lifetime. Give us a daydream where they kiss and get it on. Please. How satisfying would that be? Please. And also, like, not even the hint of, like, the betrower. Tronica relationship that were all immediately standing. They had like one moment where they looked at each other and smiled.

A second. It was more like girlfriend's smile than it was Vitronica. Yeah. And I thought it was like maybe during one of these rehearsals, oh, they have like a really, you know, a steamy conversation. Like, give me something between them. No, there was so little plot in this episode that it almost makes me think that they have to set a certain number of episodes aside per season that they have to like write before they do the like, uh, planning of whatever the point. Green episode that they just pop in. Honestly, it could be.

It felt like this episode was written before they knew what would happen in this season. It was just like, well, we'll just have all the characters have a beauty page in and like zero plot will be advanced. And not even anything that has been established so far will be even picked up on. And it feels like it had nothing to do with the rest of the season. And again, we get it. You got a lot of time to fill. But I just, yeah, it just felt there was, there was, there was. There was no sex and there was opportunities for sex.

There's literally a fucking fantasy about Jughead being her boyfriend. If she could be seen as a sexual person, she would have had a sexy kiss with him. And because she is fat, she doesn't get to be seen as a sexual person. And that's the problem. And instead of saying that, they just kept being like, well, you could never win a beauty contest. You like comic books. That's not why. No, it's not why.

That's not why? I mean, parents getting murdered and you being implicated in the murder, like, I understand. I understand that that makes you a little bit different than the other girls, but not like the other girls. No, not like the other girls. And so it comes down to the judges know that they chose Betty Cooper to be Miss Teen Queen. Hal Cooper knows that Betty won, but it's Alice at the end of the day. Now, I will say the shining stars of this episode

were the scenes between Betty and Alice Cooper. 100%. Because they're both amazing actresses. And they just, their barbs toward each other were great. The chemistry between them is electric. I love their mother-daughter relationship because this entire time, like, Alice is being very, like, holier than now.

she's being very Alice in this and Betty's being very like... She's such a bitch. Alice was peak bitch in this episode in a very... She's a bit. And I kind of love seeing her be in peak bitch. Absolutely.

But in the end, we get a little bit more from Alice that like she won Miss Teen Queen and she told Betty that she used to want to be a stewardess and that she put all of that away to have a family. And like it definitely was a really good moment between the two of them

where like Betty didn't know that she had other dreams besides being a mother and that like that was a very connecting moment for them. Yeah. It still doesn't explain why she chose Ethel Mugs to win the competition. Yeah. I don't under, I like actually don't understand why Alice drew the contest. Because she never wanted her to be in the competition in the first place. Right.

Like if she did it to like fuck. It's out. I think we're meant to believe that she just did it to be vengeful to Betty because she's just that evil of a mom. and listen, Alice Cooper is not a great mother, but we haven't, they planted the whole, I'm not your mother's seed so long ago at this point. Those four or five episodes ago,

and at this point Alice Cooper is just being an awful mother, but we like don't know why, you know? So it's like one of those things with Riverdale where it's like, if you introduce something, you got to at least give us a couple of breadcrumbs about why. You know, why is she, we still don't know why she abandoned motherhood. We had a lot of great theories about that it might be leading towards something, but we haven't been led there.

So it's just like, are you just a fucking psychopath? You just threw the contest just to fuck with your child and like vengefully so towards Ethel? I don't get it. I mean, I'll throw it out there to Jamie who wrote in, wrote in a theory which I, it's very possible. Jamie says, I have a quick theory. What if instead of Hal Cooper being a baddie, what if it's Alice Cooper the season? If I remember correctly, wasn't she the one with the serial? killer gene when Agent Betty was on the case.

Is it possible that that's, Jamie, thank you so much for writing her. You could write in your own theories to page 7 podcasts at gmail.com if you wish. I do wonder if maybe they are going to bring in that serial killer gene. Are they going to bring in any of that, like is she going to get worse and worse? Is she doing even worse things? I mean, if you think about it, she is the one that straight up sent Midge to the sisters of quiet mercy because she found out she was pregnant, told her parents, and then was like, why don't we send her the sisters a quiet mercy? Like I did, like we just do with all the wayward

teens. Totally. And I mean, Alice, there's been many a season where Alice is like the driver, is the agent of chaos. So it would make sense for it to be her again. And I would be fine with that. Again, it's just like we are getting to the point Riverdale where we need a little bit, a little bit less filler. We need to start picking up those threads again. And I would be fine. We got a little, we did a little trail of crumbs leading us to something further happening. Why is Alice so bad? Is it just that she's a bad mom? Because that's not enough for me.

I need to know why. Why does she suddenly a psychopath? We know she's a very unstable person. She always has been. She's a seeker. But, yeah, I, that, I mean, I think that that theory makes sense. But then why bring Hal back at all? I guess just because why not?

I guess because like they're bringing back other, you know, Midge was dead. They brought her back and like, you know, there's Evelyn Ever and Ever, which I do. I will say special shoutouts to Evelyn Ever and Ever this episode because she was such a bitch. And I was just like, and they're so mean, rightfully so. I know. Like they all hate her. It's so funny. She's so awful.

And she just stands there and scowls the whole episode. And everybody keeps just looking at her. her and scowling back. I do love the just like son. It's like the Simpsons, there's a character called the baby with the one eyebrow who Maggie hates. Every time the baby with the one eyebrow walks by, Maggie and the baby just make like angry eye contact at each other.

And I feel like Evelyn Ever and Never. That's Evelyn Ever never. She just doesn't really speak. She didn't, again, talk about threads. She's there. She's like a bitch. She's like sabotaging Cheryl and T.T. In this episode, she didn't do anything except stand there and look pissy.

Pissed off. And then they just were like. you rat bitch every time they can any time the camera pan torts her i just feel like they're not rat bitch it was much more highfalutin like 1955 terms of just like every time they showed her they said something a horrible to her and i love it yeah yeah i like i like um old evelyn ever never you know because she is visibly older than them because they were all talking about midge being knocked up i didn't even realize that all of them didn't know that midge was knocked up. This was after she gets kicked out of the pageant. And then, are they implying that in this world, Veronica is inventing the idea for birth control? Because in that conversation, she's like, I just wish there was like a pill that someone could take so that they wouldn't have to worry about getting pregnant. And I was like, is Veronica actively inventing birth control right now? Yeah, that was also, this was on my mind because, you know, this week, like the first over-the-counter

birth control got FDA approved or whatever. So I was listening to a podcast about it. They were talking about the history of birth control. And it was the 50s when it was like, so that must, there must be some very specific reference they're making because of course it's Riverdale. Like maybe I should look up when over the counter birth control was approved. It must have been very shortly after this conversation that Veronica has where she's like, if only there was a pill to prevent getting pregnant.

That was really hilarious. I also had to look up if Hal was short for Harold, because of the, you know, I had no idea because in one scene, Alice is yelling towards Hal and she calls him Harold. And I was like, did she just accidentally call him the wrong name? But I didn't realize that his full name was Harold. Yeah. I actually know a baby whose name is Harold who goes by Hal. It's a very cute. Oh, that's cute. Serial killer jeans, though. Have you talked to them about Hal Cooper? I don't know if you've talked to them about Hal Cooper yet. Now, we do have some theories that I wanted to get into. And, um, oh, I did also write down a life as hopeless and broken as

Ethel's. The way they talk about Ethel. Jesus. Hopeless and broken. Yes. Hopeless and broken. Yes. Come on, you guys. Jesus, guys. Come on. Give her a break. Do you. By the way, it was 1960 that FDA first approved oral contraceptives of the United States. So I guess that line from Herodico was just like, wow, imagine a world before anybody had birth control, which, you know, yes, that must have been shitty. Yes, it must have been very shitty. And like the fact that like your whole life is destroyed by it, I think they would really definitely make me a lot more chaste than I was if that was not an option. Yeah, either more chaste or more ashamed. More a shame. More ashamed.

It's going to be one or the other. Now, someone wrote in, Sierra wrote in and started talking about, which I completely forgot about this, all of the biblical stuff from last season, they said, I have the biggest Riverdale blast to Percival past. I was sitting there thinking, okay.

I do not like that phrase. I love it, but I don't like it, you know. We all know Ronnie as her business. and Betty has her crime. Where is Betty's crime? I was kind of missing it, and I remembered Polly washed Betty's feet and rid her of all of her big, bad cat

killing energy. I'm not sure if the feet washing transferred over into the 1950s, but that might be the reason we no longer have bad girl, Betty. Polly washed her feet, but not enough to get rid of all the horny, just the crime.

Interesting. Because I was going to say, we do still have like glimmers of dark Betty, but it's just, it's not darkness, it's just hornyness. She's just like a horny bisexual betty. All the darkness has been sublimated into just a kind of like pansexual enthusiasm, you know? In my biggest dreams, I thought that the pageant, I was like, what if the pageant, I paused it to say to Jeff was like, what if they all start kissing? Wouldn't that be great? What if that's what happens with the pageant? That's how they upset the mom and everything,

that they all start kissing instead. And that in pops, we're all. We're all. all the boys are watching, all the boys start kissing. They start kissing. Yeah. Well, because, like, how the boys all were watching, because essentially the, the competition was televised for the first time, which is why this was such a big thing. And all the boys were all just, like, I even felt like it was a stretch when, like, they had Reggie being like, she's real hot, which, like, it was so out of character the way

I don't think any of them would have given a shit about a Miss Teen Queen beauty pageant. Right, right. Yeah, right. All the boys are like horny for sure. But the fact that they're all gathered around, I don't know, Alice was like, it's broadcast nationally. It's like national television. They're definitely taking some liberties with like whatever her and Hal are, you know. Is it local news or is it like national news?

It's unclear. Yeah. But yeah, so that all, it's, and I kind of saw that all the boys gather around just to, it felt like this was like a nice feel good episode. Like all the girls are working together and all the boys are supporting them and everybody's talking about Ethel's miserable life, you know? Like it was like a lift everybody up except for Ethel. Pretty much. Kind of situation.

But then, I just want to say thank you to Alex who wrote in and brought this. I thought that Dilton Doyley was playing. by a different character, but I never looked it up because he's so, he so goes away in my brain, which I feel really bad about. A hundred percent. I have also been wondering this. I was like, either that act, because he used to be like a really, really young kid. And I was like, he must just look different because this kid is older.

Like, and I thought maybe the kid just grew up, different guy. And weirdly enough, Alex, I ended up looking into this. The Dilton Doily in this season is actually the Dilton Doyley that, played Dilton in the first episode of Riverdale and then got recast and then they brought him back for the final season. Now, I thought, then I was just like, oh, is that like, was there, is this like a whole like transfer of time thing? Like, is there like, the ever question, is this happening for a reason or not for a reason? But the real reason is the, uh, the Dilton Doyley from the rest of the seasons is in a Broadway show and couldn't do the season. So he said yes to that

and chose that instead. So good for them. Good for him. Hell yeah. Good for you. But Alex, thank you for looking into it and thank you for sharing this because I just didn't, you know, I don't think I've ever cared enough about Dilton Doyley to really even look at him. They have like so carefully and purposely made him kind of an afterthought. But yeah, I mean, he used to look like he was like about 13. And now he definitely looks like he's like 25. And so I was like either that kid just like really went through puberty and it's like now grown up or that's a different kid. Yes.

Now, Madeline and Jane both wrote in separate theories that are actually fairly similar to each other. So I want to read this out because this, of course, I pitched to Jeff right as he woke up this morning. And he's just like, no, Jackie, yeah, I guess that makes sense. Like he's literally waking up and he loves it when I hear of the Riverdale theories because I read all the theories the morning before we record the Vardale Roundup. And it makes me so excited because I wait to read the back to back what I'm in the Riverdale mindset. Okay. Madeline says, Could this whole time jump and everything, along with them vilifying and burning the comic books, be some kind of set up where the characters are too close to realizing that they aren't read?

like they were realizing they were in a comic book or something, so the Guardian Angel of Riverdale, Tabitha, had to change the storyline to distract them and make them forget. The comic book, The Milkman Cometh, had to be destroyed, and Ethel and Jughead couldn't be allowed to write about him because he really existed in their world, which is just a comic book, and they might have realized the correlation.

This might also explain why the writers seem to have no inclination toward the characters realizing they are in the past. It just seems like this is where we live now. Wow. So then Jane goes on to say, I believe that this season is going to end with Jughead closing a comic book on the whole thing, which is also how I thought the movie Unbreakable

should have ended a million years ago. I completely understand. But anyways, I think that the Jughead that we've seen in the suite hereafter in the past, because remember there was the storyteller Jughead who was like writing the story story. and comic form of Archie. In the last season, there were two jugheads,

and one was like, I'm a writer, fuck off, do your thing in your Riverdale world, don't worry about me. And then in the Rivervale episodes, he was Rod Sterling character, and our Jughead was a character in the Omniscient Jughead stories. I don't think they make it back to 2023,

because this is like a parallel universe. And also by now, we've all seen their posts where it really looks like they wrapped in the 1955 costumes. I think they just call it. Like it was always a comic book. Yeah. It was always a story.

Maybe not just my thoughts. I just want to say I appreciate. Also, Jane cried during the musical episode. I just want to say, I'm which you. I'm which you, Jane. But so I pitched this to Jeff this morning. And then that's why he's like, if this all ends and it's just like, oh, it was just 1955.

And they don't have a caveat into what happened with the rest of the season. He's like, I'm going to be pissed. Yeah. I'm going to be so mad. That would be a bit of like a lost ending, you know, to be. I didn't even watch loss, but I know everybody hated it. Yes. Like I, okay, that, those two emails honestly made me feel like what I wish, if I could wish for anything, I would wish for a comprehensive list.

And I'm not, I don't think anyone can actually do this. But I want to, I want to take a list of all of the episodes of Riverdale, seasons one through seven. and I want somebody to cross off all the filler ones. And I want them to leave like the plot of Riverdale ones, like the universe, the world building of Riverdale. And I want to do like some sort of marathon. I want to fly to L.A. And in your house, I want us to watch all of the ones where they are,

especially River Vale and all of that shit that happened with the like, I'm Jughead, I'm a writer, I'm the one creating these stories. versus we are all in the story. All that's, they have devoted a lot of energy to doing some kind of meta world building and it has come in several different forms. And I'm not expecting there to be a coherent. It all comes together at the end. I think that we will be disappointed if that's what we're expecting.

But I do, that does make me want to go back and revisit whatever they have kind of, what seeds they have dropped throughout the seasons of, because maybe. Maybe it is just a comic book the whole time. That wouldn't be, that would not be as disappointing as it was all a dream. Because it is, after all, Riverdale. It would make sense if it was a comic book the whole time. Yes. But so both of those emails make me really wonder, is that something that they are building towards?

Is that something that they're hinting at? Because it makes a lot of sense. Makes a lot of sense. And especially because we remember, season one begins with, and as continued, mostly, Jughead is the narrator. Jughead is writing stories, right? And so, but also Jughead is a character in Riverdale. But if this whole time, these have just been stories that Jughead is writing, that probably actually does make the most sense, doesn't it?

That's how we started. It would make sense that that's how we end. And he still narrates, not every episode, but up top of most episodes, he's still narrating. Yes. If there ever is a narrator, it's always him. Yes. So it does make a lot of sense. It makes sense.

Does make a lot of sense. And at the end will just be the page of the comic book closes and they all turn into cartoons or whatever. Although do they, I mean, there must be complicated copyright stuff going on with, like they're, can they just, could they show the original Archie images? They must be working it. I mean, right? They have to be, have.

They must have the rights, I would assume. They must. There's no way this is all like fair use. I don't think. Yeah. I don't, I have no idea though. But we've never seen them. as images, we've never seen

the images of the Archie comics in the entire series. And that would be kind of a baller way to end. But if you think about it, like Jughead wears the very, you know, with the hat and the, you know, sweater and everything. I feel like those are still such huge properties that there's no way they could do it with that, right?

Yeah, I think that you're right. And it's all, they're all kind of fashioned to look like the comics, but yeah, so maybe it's just going to be, maybe it's just, we've just been reading comic books this whole time. Yeah, man. Because also, we know that many of the plot lines that have happened throughout the seasons are plotlines that did happen in one way or another in the comic books. Right. You know, all the, all the various stuff with the bands and,

you know, there's been a lot of that. I think less serial killing in the comic books is my guess, but I would assume so. I think a lot, I think, you know, it's a lot more ginchy over the comic books. I just want to say thank you so much, Jane and Dr. Madeline for dropping some knowledge on us. Yeah. Because that's amazing. And I also just, this is, Zinn wrote in, like, a great email all about, like, the idea of the costuming department and just, like, talking about how amazing they've been doing with, like, including, like, some modern pieces and mostly, and, like, they even said, like, vintage clothes,

not vintage values and talking about just, like, commending the whole. whole costuming department. But the one thing that I definitely want to bring up is that Zinn says, did you notice that Betty and Alice's standard hair is the same style parted on opposite sides? Like opposites, yes, but also a mirror. So much you can talk about with Betty and Alice's fears for and about each other. Great metaphor hair department. Wow. Man, this is... I didn't notice that. That's awesome. I didn't notice that either. This is why liberal arts are important and they shouldn't get rid of English majors. It's so cool to hear from other people about where they find symbolism and where they find these potentially very meaningful things.

I never would have noticed that in a million years because I'm just not like ever since we heard from the costume department and like and especially since ever since we've been in 1955, I've been struck by the visuals of this season and how incredible the costumes are. but my mind just doesn't really work. I don't really thrive with noticing fashion and hair styles and things like that. But I did actually in this episode notice Betty's hair and I was just like, man,

Betty's hair looks fucking awesome. But that would be very, they're definitely. I mean, and you're right, there was a lot of relationship building between Alice and Betty in this episode that was really meaningful and really satisfying. And so I do wonder where they're going to go with their relationship. And I also just love Zin went to give a couple examples

of like bringing in. some modern things to convey of like things about the character. Like Betty in this episode in The Dress Shop wears a dress with a tool corset top which really couldn't have been so forward to show the boning of the garment in the 1950s.

It still evokes the shape of clothes in the era while being distinctly modern in taste because Betty is being openly modernly minded about the pageant. Cheryl doesn't get as many more visually modern looks because her parents still have a good amount of control over her. It's really good detail.

Thank you, Zin, for bringing that up. Oh, man, that's so cool. Awesome. It's just like all the literary references that are happening, that many of which are going right over our heads, because if we don't know all of these, you know, science fiction short stories and stuff, they're referencing, all of the costume references,

like the way that they're using the wardrobe to tell stories and to advance the character development is really neat. That's cool. Now, I know that we don't usually do shoutouts in Riverdale Roundup, and Sierra understands this, But Sierra wrote in about the feet watching, but then they also said, I just would love to give a quick shout out to my dad, who, God bless him, has watched every episode of Riverdale with me since 2017. I was 19 and he was 57 when it all started in an attempt to bond with his college-aged daughter. He started watching it with me.

I still go home once a week to watch Riverdale with my father, who most recently uttered a line that remains infamous in my brain. What? everyone is just gay and horny now don't we have other stuff going on now I'm 25 and he's 62 and we've both been through so much in the last six years but Riverdale has been with us once a week to go on confusing us and making us yell at the TV

I'll miss it and I'll miss Riverdale Roundup so much love for you both and so much love for you both thank you so much for sharing that I add to that makes my day that is so sweet that makes me so happy that you guys sit and while I can't even imagine my phone watching Riverdale. But it's a great show to watch with your dad because it's sexy, but it's not so sexy.

It's not like there's any sex scenes in it where you'd be like, oh, you know, you don't like, like there's certain things where you just do not want to watch them with your parents. But it's like just stupid enough where like there's nothing ever that's really that uncomfortable. So it actually is like a good dad show, you know. It really is. So thank you so much, Sierra. And thank you guys so much for joining us on this episode of Riverdale Roundup, y'all. We did it.

Thanks for letting us. letting us scream a little bit about Ethel and how she deserves more. Yes. She deserves better. And she definitely does. And we still, I will die on this hill. And please send in, you can send in your own theories, you can send in your own, even if it's just sending in, someone just sent in, I'm stoned and I'm giggling at Edith Cups. Yes.

That was Alicia. Alicia wrote an Edith Cups gave me a stoner giggle. And it did for me too. Edith Cups. It was like the alternate name of Ethel Mug. Edith Cups. All right, Riverdale. Glamriche eggs.

You still got it. Love you guys so much. Thank you so much for joining us. I think we're back next week. We never know when there's a bye week with Riverdale. So I'm pretty sure we're back next week. So if there's an episode, we'll be back next week. Thank you, MJ.

Thank you for all your knowledge. And I appreciate you. And thank you for waking up at 5 a.m. to watch Riverdale. I appreciate you, Jackie. Have a great week, guys. Be back. Next week. Bye.

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