Page 7 - Second Helpings - Hot By Proxy

Episode Date: October 9, 2026

Slap on your bib, it's time for some SECOND HELPIN'S with Jackie and MJ, and this time they're gettin' all STEAMED UP with a deeper dive into the Michael Douglas memoir 'One Helluva Ride' (including the apparent hypodermic needle threat at the 1992 Oscars!?), Jackie's got her 31 for 31 rubric to help anyone still strugglin' to figure out what to watch this season! But MJ's got their sights set on tryin' out 'Backrooms' after seeing the trailer for it, but they're always ready to watch 'Never Been Kissed' especially since Michael Vartan emerged from the woods for a reunion with Jennifer Garner! Jackie got to go to Halloween Horror Nights, but not a Nikki in sight. Jackie's excited for 'Other Mommy', AND SO MUCH MOOOOORE!!!Want even more Page 7? Support us on Patreon! Patreon.com/Page7Podcast Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes of Page 7 ad-free.Start a free trial now on Apple Podcasts or by visiting siriusxm.com/podcastsplus. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Second job. Welcome to Second Helpins, everybody. My name is Jackie Zabrowski. And I'm MJ. The story of the week was Michael Douglas' steamy memoir. And your second home helping of the week is that we are inhaling the steam because we didn't get to talk about it with Holden. And we're talking about it today. Yeah, we're huffing up Douglas. Good. Sorry, Catherine Zeta. I think that we're huffing the life right out of him. Just like you suck the youth out of a baby, right, MJ? Is that what you think parents do? I feel like isn't that what you do? Honestly, your skin's looking better and better. And I feel like you might be supping the youth from your children. I'm glad that I'm cornering you about this subject while we're live. How do you feel about this? Like, do you think that you take it out of the ends of the strands of their hair or do you nip it from their toes?

I mean, if you had asked me without the prompt, I would have said it's Vicercy. They are sucking. they're sucking the youth out of me. You know, like there's a James Stevenson children's book where like a little boy goes into a haunted house and then he comes out an old man and that's what I feel like. I went into the hospital as a young person

and I came out as an old person. Is that where Night Shyamalan got the idea from? Was it from that old? Hunt them old. I know. I reference this children's book all the time and I think that maybe I've referenced it on the show before and people said that they knew

I was talking about, but it's like a real deep cut. I don't know, but it's a very helpful analogy. Speaking of very helpful deep cuts, do you realize that lanterns from lanterns? Yes, I call him lanterns. I can't remember what his name is. That guy lanterns, big lanterns, is mid-sized sedan from old. Wait, when you say lanterns, you don't mean coach, you mean tall lanterns. I don't mean coach, I mean lanterns.

Tall and Pierre. Yeah, yeah, okay. Aaron Pierre. And his name is Aaron Pierre. His name is not lanterns. I'm not talking about Coach Taylor. Maybe I do refer to him as lanterns sometimes too. But no, I only ever refer to him as Coach Lanterns.

Thank you. Okay. All right, got it. We have Coach Lanterns. We have lanterns. Aaron Pierre. But Aaron Pierre also played, yes, the character named mid-sized sedan that was in the movie old. You know, I'm glad that, and I'm Knight-Shaw-Milan vehicle, didn't slow him down.

I think M. Night Shyamalan has launched so many careers, you know? Oh, yeah. And sometimes he's holding some of them back. And I'm really excited again about the Yelan Hula. We're getting the hardcore Yelan Hula-Sharmelon collab that we never knew that we needed desperately. Yeah, man, maybe I'll go rewatch old since I'm living that Lantern life. No. No, don't. You can watch other movies. There's other movies to watch out there. I think that you could spend your time watching those movies. In fact, it is, it's October, baby. It is spooky duke season,

and I'm not talking about a holding toilet seat. No, I'm talking about 31 for 31. Guys, it's the spooky spooky season. And all the goths, they stay into play. And sometimes they go out, and sometimes they play. And I'm really excited because I actually was having a friend of mine asked me, do I feel like I lost the spirit of dressing up for Halloween because I dress up in cosplay all the time?

That's a good question. But I actually, you know, the answer is yes, except for when I'm very excited about my costume. Like this year, Jeff and I are already working on, I told you, I'm going to be Patricia from Sunset Cocktails, this sunset cocktails episode. And we're already working on the headpiece. So I'm so excited about it that I don't care.

that it's just dressing up another day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think that is the key. You have to have a costume. And as much as I love to have a costume that you're going to explain it, it takes a long time to explain and the person you're telling doesn't understand the reference. Like, that's usually the name of my game. But I think that if you're Patricia from Widows Bay this season,

everyone is going to just be so happy, so excited, especially in the circle, you know, in the artistic circles of L.A., people are going to be like, let's sit down and have a long conversation about Widows Bay. And it's going to be great. I still don't know what I'm going to be. You don't know. You guys usually go as a family costume, though, right? I know.

Well, last year we were, Gideon and I were the Sajah boys, but the kids didn't want to be Huntricks. And so we were just Sajab boys on our own with no Huntricks. Which I do love for you guys. Like, I love this energy for y'all. I'm really happy for you guys that you had that. Yeah, like other parents in the day, we're like seeing us like, where's Huntrix? And we're like, they're not here.

They're not here. It's just us. If you're wondering why I'm looking at my phone so rudely, it's because I remember that I have my 31 for 31 on an app that's just on my phone that I cannot access on my computer. But I wanted to talk about our different rubric because as you guys, I don't know if you guys remember, but Jeff and I have a rubric that we fill every year. And it really, I'm going to post the rubric over on the page 7 LPN. if you need help coming up with a 31 for 31 yourself because I think that sometimes people,

now some people I know do 31 for 31 off the dome every day. They're just ripping movies. They just pop a movie on. And I say, God bless it. I just can't work like that because too many options provide me a stall. And I don't want to stall in this situation because then we're not going to watch any horror movies. So I have to have a list because then you have to choose from the list. Once you have a list, you got to choose from the list. Well, and also you have seen so many horror movies. I feel

like me and Gideon's approach as non-horror people every Halloween is to be like, what classic do we want to watch that either we saw when we were kids and we don't remember or we, I've never actually seen whatever one that everybody else has seen. And that's been, I think that we've chipped away at most of the like, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the and the Jasons and the Freddie Krueger's and like we've spent the last years kind of going through the classic catalog because I like the 80s slasher genre

but yeah I think with you when you when you are such an expert of the genre you've got to and you do it do you do it by like do you try to hit in your rubric you try to hit different like gore you know psychological or whatever oh yeah all across the board

like we start off like out the gate 50s 60 70s 80s, 90s, 20s, you know, it's like you have one from each generation, but then you know, we're slapping down, we got some queer horror, you got your zombies, get your horror comedies, you have, we always watch a Friday the 13th film, we always watch a Halloween

film, we always watch a foreign horror, at least one, but usually we have a bunch on there. A ghost one, found footage, slasher, brand new horror, body horror, demonic or possession film, a Stephen King film, scary kids, John Carpenter film, witches, creature feature,

Folk Horror, Vampire, West Craven film. See, these are all big, like these are categories with which then you can break down your look if it helps you. I love that. That really is very helpful. It is because it does address the Netflix overwhelmed feeling of like, where do I even start? Yes, it can also sometimes I feel like when you're watching horror movies every day, they kind of blend together when you have to remember the world of horror is so vast.

And there's just so much that you can enjoy if you just want to. Like even I know that Holden's show is coming out soon. Like he's got his Ted Ramey show that's coming out. That's like that's definitely like a funnier puppet version of a horror if you want to watch something like that. We're also peppering in a lot of tales from the Crips because I haven't watched a lot of Tales from the Cript since I was a kid and I was so scared. I was so scared of the cryptkeeper growing up. Oh my God, the laugh.

You remember even just hearing the opening from Tales from the Crypt now as an adult, I remember my heart and just being like, I got to get out of the room, I got to get out of the room when it would play when I was a kid. Oh, if I saw Tales from the Crypt on a television, something had gone wrong. Like it was because I loved Are You Afraid of the Dark, obviously, but Tales from the Crypt, I knew that was too gross. for me too scary. And yes, I would see it on the TV and I would run out of the room also. Yeah. And I think that I would love to introduce the kids to Are You Afraid of the Dark?

I did go back and revisit it a few years ago. I think during the pandemic, at which point we discovered that one of the kids at the campfire looks exactly like my husband. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not to also say like you as a kid because I'm assuming there was one like you, too. Yeah. Clay Claim, please. But yeah, I don't know if even like the softest children-friendly, scary stories of the Nickelodeon 90s are going to be too much for today's youth. Yeah. I haven't used to it the way we were used to it. But you even talking, you were talking about some classics.

And sometimes we forget about like old school, old school classics. We just watch Creature from the Black Lagoon for the first time. I had never seen it before because in my head, I was just like, oh, it's just, it's the universal monster, I get it. And then you watch it. And I was like, this could have been made just in black and white, like six years ago. The way, how it was made and what they did with the creature and how they built the creature. And then I kind of got lost in the sauce of reading about like how they how they did it.

And also it was kind of fun because they shot a lot of it in Tallahassee, Florida. So I weirdly was like, maybe I've been to this. because it was all shot at Wakala Springs and like we used to hang out at it Wakala Springs a lot so I just kept thinking about like what if the creature was there the entire time and then like reading more about how they had two different people playing the creature

they had because the underwater coverage is crazy for a movie from 1955 it's really insane what they got under the water because they specifically had a creature that was cast who was a dolly. and then the creature that was on land was played by a different person. So that they actually, because they needed to have him, he wanted him to hold his breath so no bubbles came from the creature below the water. So he had to hold his breath for up to four minutes at a time because he didn't want any bubbles coming from the creature.

That's crazy. Okay, I have a question for you, speaking of old horrors, because that made me think about. Sorry, different. Oh, about Night of Living Dead. Do you think a category on a rubric could be, like, horrors that have a broader social or political point? Or is that all horror? Because Gideon always makes fun of me, because whenever I watch a sci-fi or a horror, like, we watch Night of Living Dead, I was like, oh, zombies are about othering a whole group of people. And he's like, yeah, man.

And I watch Star Wars. I'm like, oh, it's about like an all-powerful political. government that like takes away people's freedoms and he's like yes so would you say that all horror is making a broader social political commentary or is that a unique genre like a night of living dead like like I would put obsession in that category obviously many many many many horrors would go in that category I think I do feel many many many horrors go into that category because it is of such an effective avenue to talk to people about greater socio-political problems and to put it in this lens. I do feel a lot of horrors do that. Then there are many horrors that are just fucking stupid.

You know what I mean? Like there's also cutting people up. There are just many horrors that are just not that at all. But a lot of them really do. And if you break it down like you were saying with obsession, you know, you don't have to break down obsession to see what it's trying to. say, you know? And that's what horror has always, it's been a cornerstone of being able to tell stories of four people and with other people that never had the platformer's the ability to tell those stories, but they could sell it covered in horror instead, you know, and in a way that all of us like better, you know? Right, right. What if when society collapses we certain groups of people harness their resources and privilege against other groups of people.

And yeah, that's, see, this is why I only, despite the fact that I only watch horror in October, I do always really enjoy it. And we are super behind. We have not started our 31 for 31 yet because we've just been, we've been living minute to minute over here. Do you know what big one you want to tackle this year? Because usually you guys, like, did you watch Scream last year? Was that last year? We watched Scream every few years. I would, honestly, I'm really intrigued by weapons.

And I didn't know. I remember that you had talked about backrooms, but I didn't see the ad for backrooms until yesterday. And then you brought up backrooms before we started recording. I think it's very funny that you just saw the ad for the first time for back rooms, even though it came out in June, I think. I was like, ooh, rooms, scary rooms. It's already screen.

as well. Like you are neat. That's why I saw it. It was funny because I was talking about backrooms because you guys are going to see over on Romanticy deep dives, Natalie and I may have shot some backrooms-esque content when we were in a disgusting hotel over the weekend. Because sometimes you got to turn that disgusting hotel into lemonade. And that does sound like I'm pissing on the floor. But I try to keep myself from doing that. Yeah, I mean, backroom, I saw the trailer and I was immediately like, I've been in all sorts of scary buildings with scary rooms. This is a great idea for a film.

MJ, I love to you haven't. So wait, you didn't know what the movie backrooms is about, but you've not heard of backrooms in general before this. Zero. This is, I love you so much. I don't know. I love that you work in pop culture. And yet, the things that like backrooms, which has been an internet phenomenon for so long. It's been an internet phenomenon. Explain. It has been, pull up a chair. Tell me. It has been, tell me the story. It has been a liminal space place online that people essentially like put out that at first,

people thought like the back rooms was like a real thing where it was like this person was like exploring this space. And then they couldn't find their way out of the space. that there was like creepy things in the space, but overall it is the idea of like liminal space things that all look the same that you get lost inside of that are very confusing. And that's what the movie is based on the phenomenon that was built through the backroom's videos

because that had already been like a creepy, I don't want to say creepy pasta because I know it's not specifically creepy pasta, but like the creepy internet thing, for many, many years of like back rooms, and many people spent many, many hours like clicking through it by themselves, creeping themselves out.

Oh, yeah, see, I'm not on the creepy internet. I'm on a different... I'm on like midterms internet. Oh, and I do love that, and that is equally scary, and we will talk about equally scary things when we come back from this sponsored ad. Like the midterms, Yeah, that's what we're coming back to because we're getting right into if horror gets to talk about politics and we gets to talk about politics too.

And there's nothing scarier than midterms. Everybody's got to be voting. We're all voting. Everybody's voting. Yes, everybody. Now, shall we? Is this a good opportunity to talk about something that's not scary but is old, which is Michael Douglas and his memoir? He can be a little scary.

I think any man. man that has been in Hollywood that long. I'm going to say they're probably scary. I think Tom Cruise is scary. I think Michael Douglas is scary. I think honestly, I was going to say George Clooney is scary, but I feel like a mall saved him.

He's not scary. Since a mall, I'm not scared of him. Brad Pitt, scary. He's been in Hollywood too long. These are the scary ones, right? Yeah, no. George Clooney deserves credit for being in a distinctly different category than those scary men. And also, Yes, Michael Douglas. He's been in some, you know, scary-ish movies.

Can I explain the weird Michael Douglas hole that me and my friends went through a few years ago? Ew, which hole? Depends on which hole you're saying. I don't know if I want to know. Here, the belly button, because hopefully, I don't know if Michael Douglas keeps it very clean. Because as all this memoir stuff is coming out, I'm thinking like, man, what do I have to say about Michael Douglas? Like, what's my relationship with Michael Douglas? And so I'm thinking about this kid is now 14.

But when my friends, like my first friends in my friend group had a baby and were like, oh, shit, we can't go out to the bar anymore because you got a baby. We started a hangout at their house and watch a movie club. But our, just like your rubric for 31 for 31, we needed a theme. And our theme was Paul Verhoeven. And so we started the Paul Verhoeven movie club. And obviously, we were going to. We started with showgirls because you got to start big.

You got to start big. Yeah, baby. And of course we did Starship Troopers and Robocop. And we worked our way through like the Paul Verhoeven category. Somewhere I could hear my husband getting Aldente just by you talking about these movies. And then we did Basic Instinct. And then I, we had to kind of, by the point, by the time we got to basic instinct, we were not really excited about the other offerings that were left from Paul Verhoven.

And I was like, you guys, what if we now... What is wrong with you, MJ? Maybe we had completed. I don't know. All I know is that we got to a point where we needed to pivot from Paul Verhoeven exclusively to things that feel like a Paul Verhoeven movie. And that is how we got from basic instinct to fatal attraction, another Michael Douglas movie. Erotic thrillers were at their best.

I want more erotic thrillers. Please. And that is what I realized this week. I was like my entire relationship with Michael Douglas, that this man has been an actor for decades and decades. But I think of exactly two movies that are pretty similar. Although, Verity. See, this is why I need to go see Verity.

That's a really good erotic thriller that just came out. And I see, I'm screaming for erotic thrillers, but they're right in front of my face. The problem is that they're co-hoes. And I don't know if co-ho is going to give me the erotic thriller that I crave. I'll bet Verity will be fun. I do think it's funny to make fun of Coahoe because this is us or whatever the hell it is

was so what's such a disaster. And I just, she's written so many books. And yeah, Verity is, you know, I read it. It's, again, you're not going to write your thesis on it, but it's fun. And I'm sure the movie will be fun. And I think that the casting is good and everything like that. But yeah, I just want to see them gnawing on the wood. And you don't even get to see them gnawing on the wood.

You just get apparently get to see, you read the book. Apparently it was just but a moment in the book that they have their teeth prints on the headboard. But then that was a moment that they really wanted to immortalize in the movie. So that's why Anne Hathaway and Dakota Johnson were gnaw on some wood. I didn't know that that was something that weirdly turned me on. Yeah, it's not a huge moment in the book, but I love that Anne Hathaway and Dakota Johnson are like, let's devote this whole day to making teeth marks in the headwork. No, not some wood.

No, not some wood. Yeah, that'll be fun. I, again, love an erotic thriller. And I think that we should have more movies like basic instinct and fatal attractions. Oh, yeah. Cruel intentions. We would put in that category. But yeah, so that's all just to say that I think my relationship with Michael Douglas is firmly rooted

in the 80s. Okay. And like the late 80s. And I've never been attracted to him. You seem to have been really excited to hear that he slept with Kathleen Turner. Is that because you want to sleep with Kathleen Turner? As I was saying it, I was like, oh, okay. Yes, you were saying.

I figured it out as I was talking. No, wasn't about the Michael Douglas of it all. It never was about Michael Douglas. In fact, I think that the only reason why I've ever wanted to kiss Michael Douglas is because Catherine Zeta Jones finds him attractive. Like in my brain, if Catherine Zeta Jones. from Zorro, which is specifically the one that I think of because there's a moment when he slashes the Z and her clothes fall off and her hair is covering her breasts. And I remember that

moment. It is seared into my brain. And that, the fact that that goddess likes Michael Douglas, I mean, I guess he's got something besides just HPV from eating around. Or excuse me, oral cancer from eating her out, but that's not how he got it. I decided he got it because of HV. He's from Catherine Zeta Jones. And I decided that he got it from eating out, Catherine Zeta Jones. And I don't know, I realize as I'm saying this aloud, I've only made that connection in my brain. I don't know if I've ever said it aloud, but that's what I've decided. I mean, certainly no judgment if it was Catherine Zeta Jones. You know, it's a very common virus. But also, again, the whole memoir seems to be. about various people that he slept with, or at least that's what's getting the press. And then he's so mad that everyone's asking him about it. And he was, my friend just texted me. I texted my friend who was in the Paul Verhoeven Club to help me remember what other movies we watched. And he

was like, oh, if you're interested in Michael Douglas memoir, he was just on fresh air. And in my head, I was like, I'm not, I don't think I'm going to listen to Terry Gross interview Michael Douglas. But I love the idea of Terry Gross being like, so, Kathleen Turner. And like similarly just like pushing, like, who did you sleep with? Were you a sex addicts? Because Michael Douglas doesn't want the whole memoir press tour to be about that. The problem is, I'm sorry, you can't all be Tim Curry and go into the memoir being like,

and I shan't never speak. Not that I want to speak a little dead, but he didn't want to speak, which I understood. He didn't want to speak about his sexuality, his sexual exploits at all. That's what we want to know, but that's what we want to know

about. And I love that for you, and I do love your boundaries. But that's what we want to know about. And we want to know that, I guess, way more than we want to find out about the hyperdermic needle scare at the 1992 Oscars that Michael Douglas apparently also talks about in the memoir. I don't know, MJ, if we should actually read the memoir because then I feel like we're getting all, we are definitely getting all the hits over here because apparently in one, excuse me, in one hell of a ride, we got to make sure that we say the name of this.

this beautifully named memoir that apparently at the 1992 Oscars, there was a credible threat against Michael Douglas involving a madman who intended to inject an HIV-laced needle in his arm during the live telecast. Is this an early 90s AIDS panic? Yes.

Because it sounds like an early 90s AIDS panic. Yes. A hundred percent, MJ. and everybody was really scared inside of the auditorium. And apparently Michael Douglas said officials tried to talk him out of going on stage. But he took the risk. And he was so bright. But he did say that at the time, he's like, this was a time period that we all thought it was. And it was a death sentence.

And we were all so genuinely scared of the AIDS epidemic. it is just, it does make me feel like it's an old school scam of like, I'm gonna get you with my eyes. Oh, oh, it's a total razor blades on my fingers. You know, yeah, I feel like that's what it does, it does feel like razor blades in the apple. Hyperdermic needle in the pay phone, you know, when you go to check for extra change. Every time I did that, my mom would be like, you got to be careful.

There's always hypodermic needles in there. Well, your mom told you there are hyperdemic needles everywhere. In the ball pits. In the ballpits. They're always in the ballpits. They're in the ballpits. They're in the waterpark. But I just wanted to give it up to Michael Douglas for making the early 90s AIDS epidemic about him in this humor.

I think that's very skilled. Because Shad is a narrow Michael Douglas, yes. No, as somebody who lived through the late 80s and early 90s, let me touch on the horrible AIDS crisis and tell you how it impacted me, Michael Douglas. But I- One time I got scared. Think about that. One time an absolutely illogical threat happened that definitely was not going to happen.

Also, I do like that at first I thought this was something that was pointed at him. But it seemed to be an overall threat. And while I wasn't a Michael Douglas hypodermic target. I don't know if he needed to. Did he have to champion that story in the memoir? I'm not quite sure. But he felt the direct need for everyone to know that he felt actually, actually threatened, okay? I love this because, like, you know, I'm thinking about the last celebrity by more we read was Liza, who, of course, like, lost, like, so many of her best friends to AIDS.

And it was she wrote about it very, it was very moving how she talked about how just this, this, you know, this horrible thing took, you know, it came and just absolutely attacked the community that she was in. and of course it was this massive government failure, that government turned their back on it because they didn't care who it was affecting. And then we have Michael Douglas, who's like, let me talk about how I was nominated for the Oscars in 1992. And then also, someone was targeting me specifically, Michael Douglas, with AIDS.

I love this. I think we need to read it now, Jackie. This is the thing that's bringing me in. See, you've been the opposite. That's your Kathleen Durger. Okay. I, because I really, I'm sure he doesn't go into any kind of, you know, toward sex memories or anything, but it is like Holden said,

kind of crazy that he went from bopping the screenplay writer to bop in the lead actress, just a bing bang bop for him. And that was the charm and sludge of Michael Douglas in the 80s and 90s. Kind of crazy. Yeah, yeah, that's the thing. I just have such a, again, it's just such a neutral to positive feeling about him. Like, I don't feel like he hasn't, like, soiled himself the way that, like, Sean Penn has. We don't know if he's soiling himself out there.

He might be. We can't speak for the state of his underpants. You know what I will say, though, Michael Douglas, and I know, it's like, oh, wow, he, you know, he is a nepo baby. We have to remember that he also is, he's neps to the depths. And he certainly, I will say, happy that in an erotic thriller that they'd, I was about to be like, at least he wasn't like as like stereotypically hot, but I guess like he's still like he kind of is. That's the other thing about him. I'm like, were you, you, uh, heartthrob?

I think it was the hair that never got it got it for me. Or is it really just that he was now that I'm unpacking this. I think that it really was that he was just sleeping with a lot of the women that I wanted to be sleeping with. And also, I actually think it's like good. and fine that he was the type of heartthroat? Like, I don't, like, having like a, you know, I don't know, medium-sized guy with, you know, moderately good looks be like a sex icon is good. Like, I, that's great.

I like that it was him. In my brain, as you were saying that, I was loosely, like, comparing him to a Kurt Russell, but even then I needed to say it aloud to shame myself. Because how dare I say that? Because Kurt Russell is leagues beyond the sexiness of Michael Douglas. You heard. it here first, folks, all right? I didn't even know I felt that way until I started saying it, but I do feel that way.

He also reminds me of like a Martin Sheen, who I love, you know? And he is the president of the United States. Like, Martin Sheen to me is as sexless as our current president of the United States. I do truly feel like I've put them in a similar, even though I feel bad to say that about Martin Sheen because he's not that. But I think because of West Wing, It really did make me be like, oh my God, whoa, maybe we compare him because also Michael Douglas was, and I am the president. He was the American president when he was having sex with Annette Benning, who I also wanted to be having sex with.

See, this is all, this all makes sense. A constellation of beautiful women from the 80s collaborated to make Michael Douglas hot by proxy. And then Catherine Zeta Jones stepped in. And she did Chicago and she did Zorro. And then the nail was in the coffin. And your attraction to Michael Douglas was confusingly sealed. And now it will be let out again when we read this memoir. Because you were including links about this memoir.

And I was like, Jackie, I could sleep. I don't care. But then every story that has come out, I'm like, do I actually care deeply? Maybe you actually care? Also, Kirk Douglas is interesting. So I'll bet the childhood stuff is interesting. Oh, I'm sure he's all screwed up. That's why I bet that the memoir is great.

But also, blowing my mind even further, I forgot that Martin Sheen plays one of the cabinet members in the American president. Nobody cares about this. I want you. I want the three other people that are listening to this right now that care about the American president. Please write in to page 7 podcast at your dot com. I need to hear about your love for the American president

because it used to play on USA every single day. I watch it almost every single day. Right, Adam? I know I'm not alone in this. He's saying yes. And I'm sorry, MJ, that you don't love the American president the way we love the American president. And I am very impressed by the way that you are able to parent while also listening to

me scream about the American president while trying to slowly parent off screen because both of your children are home with strep throat right now. I think that it was really, if you haven't subscribed to YouTube yet, you can go there to see me not parenting my sick children, you know, kind of gently padding them and shoving them away. And sending them away. I'm talking about the American president with Jackie right now. You've got to go in the other room. I've got to remember how I feel about the American president. Yeah, it was fine.

My problem is I mixed. Fine. MJ, I thought you were like Mr. Dandy loves the president. Like I thought this would be all up in your wheelhouse. I am Mr. Dandy loves the president. Well, back in 95 maybe. Who's the dandy in American president? Michael J. Fox. Michael J. Fox.

Okay. All right. I'll allow it. My problem is that I, for some reason, mix up the American president and the movie election, which is a very different movie. Although I watched that movie many times for a couple of other reasons. Oh, hot dub scene, hot dub scene. I remember her in the hot dub.

And that is a creepy thing to say. I was a child, okay? It was okay. I was fine. Yeah. So that's, you know what? Maybe I'll go back and revisit some of Michael Douglas's work that isn't basic instinct or attraction. Why?

I don't know. Watch and watch and definitely watch. Because honestly, even in thinking about that, Speaking of, you know, interesting character actors in these erotic thrillers, you also had Glenn Close. And Glenn Close, I've always been absolutely in love with Glenn Close, but I do feel that in the overall, like, beauty standards of Hollywood, she is definitely put in the handsome category. And I don't think that's fair. I know. She's, I remember this, this, it really shows how beauty standards colonize the mind.

I remember being a kid in the 90s and being like, why is she a movie star? She looks slightly different than all these other women. And that's horrible of me because then I went back and in the Paul Verhoeven movie club watched Fatal Attraction. And I was like, Glenn Close is awesome and hot. Yeah, dude. Hot and awesome. And scary. And very scary.

See, my little things I always wanted Glenn Close because of the big chill. And the big chill was one of my favorite movies. And I loved her so much even though I wanted to be with Kevin Klein in the movie. and even though we would have, we could have been sister wives, okay? I know that we could have figured this out. And I'm still pitching this to her because I know that she lives somewhere close to me and I'm trying to find her on the streets. Okay.

Now, since we're talking about movies from a bygone era, Jackie, just go down this journey with me because I know that you don't have the same relationship with the film Never Been Kist that I do. I think about it all the time. I want to watch it anytime someone says, Let's watch a movie. I want to say, never been kissed. And before you go down this road of thinking about an old woman trying to kiss on an old man,

so technically it's fine and it's fine, you're going to have to wait until we come back from this sponsored ad. They're both old. Yes, he thought she was a young, but she was really an old. And so really he was attracted like Jacob was attracted to her eggs. He was attracted to her wrinkles. So it was fine. He was attracted to the old side of her. Yes.

For any Gen Z out there listening, never been kissed. is apparently I learned this a few weeks ago based on a true story. Because remember when they found that old person, they found that a 28-year-old at a high school in the Bronx? Was she a school in the teacher? No, she was just 28. But I think that was maybe like a benefits fraud situation. That was a sad.

That was more about the health insurance problem with our country, that she was pretending to be in a high school so that she could get health insurance. Yeah, it was just sad. Yes. But Never Been Kist is about Drew Barrymore as an adult woman. working as a journalist going undercover into a high school

and then falling in love with Michael Vartan who is the teacher who then falls in love with her as a student and oh is he thrilled to learn she's an adult. I don't want to victim blame here but I would say that maybe if you're going into the situation and you have never been kiss

before I feel like you don't lead with that information because I feel like then it is kind of searching with your lips. You know what I mean? where you're just like, but I've never been kid, you know, I know that that's... Well, I don't know if she led with that. Her name was Josie Grossie in high school, Jackie. She had been bullied, and it's not her fault.

She had never been kissed. And then she makes friends slash falls in love with Michael Vartan, who... And I'm bringing all this up because Jennifer Gardner just took a picture with Michael Vartan, who has become a Hollywood reckless. No one has seen him in public since 2021. And then before that, he had, like, a YouTube show from, like, a couple of episodes in 2021 and then I think he was like on a podcast in 2019 and there was like a Drew Barrymore never been kissed for a union a few years ago but doesn't that he was with Jen Garner because

of alias because of alias but like he just like disappeared from Hollywood and I always think those people are so fascinating like George of the jungle like does he look like uh like he just rolled out of like the Swiss family Robinson he just looks like some guy like I or Jumangi like that's what I'm imagining him like where he like completely regressed and he's gone back to like caveman days. Yeah, no, if you Google Jen Garner and Michael Vartan and you want to see this picture, it's he just looks like some guy.

Give me one second while you've been. Don't your children understand. We are in the middle of talking about Michael Vartan and I don't even know if there is an accento on the second half of his name but I want them to know that between getting, destroying our conversation with the American president and now, this very important alias conversation that everybody is hanging on every word that we say about it, that the children are sick and the children need you.

Okay. Yeah, well, I need you because nobody else cares about never been kissed, MJ. Nobody's out of here making jokes about never been kissed. I just made one in the video I made with Natalie yesterday and I was like, I don't even know if the people watching this know never been kissed. Yeah, I don't know if anybody's thinking about it. And Michael Vartan's not thinking about it. But yeah, my question is, did he disappear from public life because of the shame of being an adult who dated a high schooler and never been kissed even though she was actually an adult? Oh, you think that's why he became a reckless.

I don't think that's why because he did ALES after that and he was very popular and successful. But any other. I do like where you're coming from, though. I do kind of like that. He was so hot. Oh, he looks great. He looks great. He's still hot.

I'm still hot. No, when I'm, when I say, I'm not. I just say some guy. He doesn't look like the Jumanji guy. I thought that he was coming in like the Jumangi guy. No, he hasn't been living in the woods. He just hasn't been living in Hollywood like as a public figure. He looks like a hot, normal guy now.

He just looked like, just like, I thought that he went feral. Yeah. And then he's like biting Jen Garner. No, no, he's just a regular guy. And now who is ringing by Pockabell's Canon doorbell? Good Christ. Everybody wants to talk to MJ. everybody wants to talk to MJ

I'm gonna have a nervous breakdown it's the longest doorbell known to mankind I can't wait someday oh god I wish see this these are the kind of big goals I heard the doorbell it's the doorbell I love it's just a swinging door of who's coming into MJ

everyone efforts like everybody I feel like this is like the growing pains episode when Chrissy gets upset because she's like everything fun happens after I go to sleep and then they let her stay up the one time and then a pony shows up and clowns show up and they're like it's not usually like this and she's like I knew it I knew it was always fun when I go to sleep and I remember thinking that's what would happen when I would go to sleep because it was like oh I bet that is when they have a bunch of fun no it's the opposite I'm living through the Jesse Spano caffeine addiction

episode of Say by the ball where she's like and I'll never get it to stand her and let everyone down You're so excited. You're so scared. Everyone wants a piece of me right now. All I want to do is talk about Michael Barton. And Michael Vartan. Yeah. The Michaels.

The Michaels that you crave, that you just don't even get, MJ. No, you're too busy. The Michaels. And yeah, they're only referring to Michael Douglas and Michael Vartan from Alias and never been kissed. Only those two. No. We don't know any other Michaels.

actually never heard of them. The Michaels where one never disappeared from Hollywood and one immediately disappeared and became Robin Williams from Jumanji and it is crazy what's happening over here on page 7. I do think that you, I do feel that

your home is becoming like a clown car. That's how I'm starting to see it. Yeah, I'm sweating. People will be crying by the end of the episode. Oh yeah. We're just going to keep on going. It's just going to be me. Now I've got strep throat. I watched your kids have strep throat. Now I have strep throat. And it's got all the white bumps. Although I used to really, man, strep throat used to so scare me because I

always used to think that the white bumps were like mushrooms that were growing in the back of my throat. And I thought that I was going to swallow myself to death. I had a lot of problems as a kid. I really thought I was going to die all the time. It might have been your mom repeatedly telling you that hyperdermic needles were everywhere. Whoa. And that I was going to get kids. Kidnapped constantly. Whoa. No way. I'm not traumatized.

And it's fine. They didn't want me. And we know that now, all right? And I was just, it was good. I genuinely really remember thinking when I was young that it was a good thing that I was fat because it was more difficult to kidnap. So this is good. These are good things to be able to confess to friends. Oh, the kidnappers didn't want you.

I was like, yeah, because your mom wanted you. No, because they couldn't pick me up physically. And I was like, oh, that's good that I'm fat because that I'm harder to. kidnap. But you'd think that it would be that it was more to hold. You'd think I would be easier to grab, but I'm glad that I thought otherwise. I was good. I guess I'm glad for you too, although I think that may have caused other issues for you. Whoa, whoa. I don't know. Anyone that's heard me talk for more than five minutes knows I've never had an issue in my life. Speaking of, I hear that everybody's really, really loving the sidebars over on

MJ's book club. MJ, just real quick, could you just give us a glimpse of what book it is that you're, what is the name of this book? I'm sorry that we didn't get into it because I feel like we really, I wanted to welcome it to the book

club because again, I understand and we listen. Not everybody is as horny as some of us. Don't worry, the horny's not gone forever. MJ and I are just going to start taking turns. So MJ, what are you getting into over on the Patreon right now? Right. So over at the Patreon,

Jackie has been doing book club reading different books for years and years and years read. You know, of course she read Twilight. It became a huge part of our show and part of our live show and this whole thing. And she's been working their ways through the Suki Stackhouse books. And so I wanted to have a hand at MJ's book club. And, you know, the books I read are stupid. They're either too smart or too stupid. And so it is just different strokes for different folks.

And isn't that wonderful? Yes. And so I've talked about the. cozy mysteries that I like to read. How many recipes are we looking at, MJ? What are we talking? I've been seeing a lot of conversation about sour cream or mayonnaise as a secret ingredient. Okay, let me bring everybody in. So we're reading fudge cupcake murder by Joanne Fluk. And I chose it because it's allegedly set in Halloween, although I haven't heard anything about Halloween yet. We're six chapters in. And every three chapters, there has been a recipe. And the

recipes have been too boring to read. Sometimes the rest of the rest of it. Sometimes the rest of recipes are very funny because it's like a very Midwestern crock pot recipe. And you're just like, it's just every detail is more horrifying than the last. But so far, the recipes have been whatever. But the reason everyone's talking about sour cream jacky is because there's two mysteries in this book. One is who killed the sheriff, who shot the sheriff, if you will. And two is- But did they shoot the deputy, MJ? It's actually the deputy who needs to find out who shot the sheriff. All right. Snakey to get its own tail. But then the other mystery is that they are, compiling a cookbook of recipes from everyone in the town.

And they have a recipe, a fudge cupcake recipe from some lady who died. And not murdered, she just died. And so they are regular dead. But so they have the recipe for the fudge cupcakes, but there's a secret ingredient. And she never told anyone, this bitch never told anyone the secret ingredient before she died. And so we don't know. We don't know. That's why everybody is guessing.

That's why everyone's guessing. So there's a two main woman. That's not enough to bring you in. Two mysteries, guys. Two mysteries. And what's the secret ingredient in the fudge cupcakes? In the fudge cupcakes. Now, is this woman too fat to be loved and is she too old to ever find happiness?

Yes, although we have only just touched on how unlikable. She is. Yes, we did. She just merely brushed the overwhelming topic of it that I'm sure will. And then it's just like what the secret ingredient is, is just your shame. Oh, that's what you got to make sure you put all your shame into the cupcakes. And all of these books, again, are 90s books. And so there's like, and you have a conversation between the main character and her sister where she's like,

Mother thinks that your life is great because you're married and have kids. And she thinks my life sucks because I don't have those things. And the sister's like, yes, you're right. But it's not too late for you. You know, like you don't get like your life is fulfilling also, Hannah Swenson. No. Don't worry. You still have time.

It's not over yet. MG, I was just having a similar conversation with the nail technician that was doing my nails. I understand. I was just telling you this. It was, she was asking if I had children. And I said no. And then she laughed and she asked me, what do I even do all day? And I thought, and the thing is that people, some people are like, do you go back to this person?

Yeah. She did a really good job of my nails. And it was more that she was like laughing and enjoying the thought of a woman, like, not. having because I mean she's like I've got four children between the ages of 18 and three and I was like you have a very different lot and I was like I I appreciate you and the work that you do I was like you do it so I don't have to playing a montage in her head of like you like skipping through an amusement part yeah I mean yes I did go to Halloween horror nights on a Wednesday last week you are right Elena like you're not wrong yeah you did just ride roller coasterce

there's midweek for fun. For fun. So I did. I did do that. That is as important, you guys. Fun is as important as all the other things we seek out in life. Joy is an act of resistance. Okay.

Of resistance. Okay. We have to go to Halloween Horror Nights, okay? Joy is an act of resistance. I'm glad you went to Halloween Horror Night. I was very sad because everybody was talking a big game about the bloody Nickies that were going to be hanging around at Halloween Horror nights. because there was tale, I don't know if you saw in the haunt world, MJ,

but because they had Nickies covered in blood from obsession. From obsession. Yes. At Halloween horror nights, it really just looked like an attractive woman covered in blood that was just screaming at every woman that was with a man. And so it actually, a lot of people were like, yikes, ugh. But I really wanted a Nikki to see me and Jeff together. and for her to go ham.

But I really appreciate, too, because a lot of the conversations were like, oh, but you're going to have all these nickies, but you're not going to have any bears walking around. But then people did realize, oh, you're just going to look like every other dude at Halloween horror nights, or you're going to get the shit beaten at you.

I was going to say everyone's going to kill the other. Don't let anyone be there. Bear is going to get vigilante justice. Yeah, and you don't want just some random bear getting it, but I, there weren't as, I didn't see any nickies and I was sad about it. Yeah, no, some poor actor is going to get like, you know, a lifetime's worth of misogyny taken out on him specifically. Yeah, and that's not fair, I guess.

You can't hold it again. It's a movie, I guess. Oh my God, I can't wait to go see Other Mommy. So excited. That's definitely on our brand new horror list going to see Other Mommy. And you have a blank stare. Did you name this movie? Surprisingly, no.

and is it Jessica Chastain as a scary mommy? Yes, it is. What? Oh, dude, MJ, the trailer looks great. Apparently there's like a jump scare every other minute. It's supposed to be very upsetting, and the trailer is very upsetting because the whole thing is that like the daughter or the kid is like, mommy is different. Sometimes the other mommy comes. And so it's like the daughter is the one that's seeing the other mommy.

And I, we really were screaming for a while of why it wasn't called Other Mother, but then I want to thank everybody in chat that screamed at me because Other Mother is in Coraline. And that, to that I say, I've never seen Coraline. And it's actually, I, because of that, I put it on my 31 for 31 this year. Because again, the umbrella of horror. That is a really good, that's a good one if you're like, oh, we've been watching all these slasher's. Oh, we've been, let's watch Coraline. That's a good, you know, that's a, that's a good different kind of horror.

Is Mommy Baby a category in your rubric, maybe even if not this month? Like, I'm realizing also Mommy, like, because like, isn't this like scary mommy? We have scary kids. We have a scary kids category, which, like, that goes with like, oh, mommy's being scary. You know, it's like, it could be scary kids, could be scared kids, you know. Okay. I usually prefer it to be the kids that are. the one like I love trying to shoot for something where the kids are the killers I know that we don't

often get that and I do kind of low-key love a kid killer maybe I'm just a Halloween girl at heart sorry I think it's kind of fun because it's so easy it's so easy to kill the innocence in a movie but it is a lot more difficult to make the innocence be the evils and I like it when they do that yeah yeah yeah I don't like it when kids sing. I like it when kids kill. So that's a little Jackie Zabrowskiism for you. Maybe it's good I'm not a parent. That's the difference

between you and me. I'm like somebody recently messaged me was like, you know that your like newsfeed is just like different videos of children dancing in different genres? And I was like, yeah. And you're like, Jackie would hate it. And I was like, yeah. I just would. I want to watch the children sing and dance

and Jackie wants to watch them kill. I just want to watch them kill. At least I don't want to watch them do other things. Like I just want to watch them, kill, kill, kill, get a knife in their hands, especially it'll make the knives look so much bigger because they've got such little hands. And that's cute. Yeah, yeah, that's fine. I say, I say arm the children. I'm with it. Honestly, I think it really stems back from the not the mama days. Like, I really love the idea of hitting daddy in the head with a frying pan. And I think that I ever since I've been really, I'm like, how do I be the baby, God love me? I think

I have been the baby dinosaur ever since. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's, I think that's right. I'm there. Godly, especially when I hit my daddy with a frying pan. Remember the actual like dinosaurs, I'm the baby music video that they used to play on the Disney channel? Yes. You remember that? Yes. You really were putting that stuff down our throats. And honestly, there's a lot being put down the throats of kids out there. And no, I'm not talking about other evil things. I'm talking about the idea of having, what is it,

forward facing projects. Yeah, I didn't want to just bring the forward facing projects of Northwest Kardashian because Kim said all she wants to do right now is forward facing projects. Oh, she wants to, this is the news. She's got a book in her.

I saw this and I immediately thought she's got a book in her. She wants forward facing projects. North is more interested in the forward facing project. She's talking about, oh, her four kids have a different relationship with fame. And some of them, one of them wants their own YouTube channel. Some of them don't want to be on the show, you know, the reality show.

But North always does. And North's really interested in forward-facing projects. Forward-facing projects. She is 13. And I hate this. Have your kids thought about forward-facing projects? I mean, I know that they were coming off-screen earlier. And I know you were just desperate to drag them in front of that camera.

I know I could see, I could feel it on you as you're desperately trying to close. them out of frame, which very, very funny. No, I'm not trying to be a bad parent when I shove my kids out of the screen. I'm trying to be a good parent. Yeah, because you know that your children are not destined for forward-facing projects. Or maybe one of them is. But I think one of them might be more of a behind-the-scenes kind of gal. We're not sure yet.

We don't know because we can't put these things inside of the kids. Right. We don't know because they're children and they don't have jobs. And they shouldn't have jobs. we outlawed child labor a while ago, except for actors and influencers. And I'm just... And book writers. And book writers, yes.

Carmen Baldwin. Because that's the thing. MJ, I think it's just so crazy because Northwest came up with all of this by herself. And like, there's no way she ever would... Like, she came in begging for forward-facing projects. From middle school. She learned about it from middle school. And then she came in and was like, I'd like...

Can you imagine? if you're eight-year-old, MJ, which is like forward-facing project. Like, I feel like I'd slap the forward-facing projects out of her mouth. I'm sorry, I'm never going to put my hands on your child, MJ. You know that. You know what I would do if my child said I'm really interested in forward-facing projects is I would do some self-reflection, okay?

Because, listen, Taylor Swift has given us a lot, and she has given us in common lexicon. I'm not saying she invented it, but I feel like she brought it to us. Yoga? That was Quiddeth Peltro. Elder. Like we have a mainstream, very popular idea that the eldest daughter in the family takes on a lot of weight, takes on a lot of the expectations of the parents, internalizes a lot of the conflict in the family, the responsibility, the desire to please one's parents and do what your parents are subtly coercing you explicitly or implicitly to do. And so we're over here.

Everyone's like, I'm the eldest daughter. I'm the eldest daughter. And then we have a 13-year-old who's the mom is like, oh, she just loves the forward-facing projects. Kim, have you thought about your own role in this? Do you think that perhaps this child might enjoy a childhood if you were to just step back? Does this have anything to do with you? And whatever, if you want to be like, I'm a proud woman in business. Okay.

But you don't have to have a proud child in business because that's a child. She doesn't have to work. But forward-facing projects, MJ. Ooh, I was so mad. And yes, the five nannies for four kids also upset me, but it's like less, it's like, I don't know, less surprising. The bald ones have only two for their seven kids. For their seven kids. That really shows how broke they are since the accidental manslaughter.

Kim Kardashian has five nannies for her four children. And while I love living a life where I have more toilets in my home than humans, that's a good life. I think it's, that's a great life. I don't know if I'd want to live the life of having more nanny. nannies than children in my home because I, when I used to work as a nanny, I remember one of the families that the kids that I watched would have playdates with and every, and they owned an entire brownstone like in the Upper East Side. They had the whole thing so there was an elevator in the whole and every child had its own nanny, but also every child had its own personal trainer,

had its own chef. And they had four children and there were four nannies. There were were four chefs and there were four personal trainers there to work out their children in elementary school that were there to like move because the whole thing was that the mother I only met her once even though we would go over there all the time that she didn't want fat kids and I heard the woman say and I was an overweight and an overweight person and it's funny that she would say those things in front of me isn't it? Child. How dare Freddie be around when I'm talking about the trauma that I experienced

when I was a nanny. Now you have to parent us both, MJ. I need a screen. MJ, help me. Not that my child is into forward-facing projects, but I do just have to spotlight her knowledge of the industry that she just wrote on a piece of paper to ask me a question, is this live?

And if it is not, can you edit it? Which is a great question. It's not live and it can be edited. It can be edited. But it's complicated. to edit it because of the video, which is why... But it's complicated, so this isn't a back and forth thing. So the show is going to be over in five to ten minutes and then I can help you, okay?

All right, go relax. So, you know, she got a book in her. She got a book. That kid needs a job. And I think that it should be forward facing because I feel like right now, what are they doing, MJ? Sitting and watching the screens, they could be making money. They could be making money while they're sitting out there. Put a camera on them, make it live, okay?

I, this story, Jackie, I know that you were exposed to, like, the worst parts of, like, wealth that Manhattan has to offer. But that is actually, and I was an Annie in Manhattan as well. I saw how bad it, I thought I had seen how bad it can get. And I've seen those apartments with the elevators that opened in them. And, oh, I dream of them. And just, it's just the fact that they had, like, in my brain, I was like, why did they, if you're trying to not make them fat. Why do they each have personal drips? But I don't they use the

stairs. They could use the stairs instead of the elevator. Use the stairs. I mean, just like get those steps in. Also, they're New York kids. You know, they're walking all the top. Like, the kids were fine. New York kids don't need a personal trainer. That poor mother, those poor kids are somewhere, man,

the issues those kids have. Those kids are now Gen Z. And they're in therapy. And I'm sorry. I hope they're in therapy already. I hope they're in therapy. I hope they're not. They're either like in therapy or they're like in the manosphere like ruining people's lives, you know. Unfortunately, it might be that.

I bless them. It's not, it's not their fault. It's never the children's fault. And this is the thing. Whenever we talk about rich kids here, celebrity kids, it is never their fault until they become adults at which point they are then responsible for their own actions. And then we are going to be making fun of Northwest directly. But for now, yes, we're going. It's a real feeding frenzy once North is an adult. but I wish for her freedom from this, these, this framework that her parents are shoving on her. I mean, just the, oh man, the idea that this kid is not being shaped by both

whoever our parents are and she's just like naturally into it. I guess same with the Baldwin kid who's got a book at her. That's also eldest daughter. Have you ever considered that your child is just trying to please you? I also do wonder. I wonder and not to like, I know it's like, oh, what, now you're going to like try to to give them some kind of humanity. But think of how difficult, I will say,

it's got to co-parent with yay. Can you imagine every time. Oh, I've had empathy for Kim because of this. Can you imagine? Like, that is where my empathy truly does lie of like, can you imagine her? Every time the kids come back from being with him where she's just like, okay.

Nannies? Undo what happened to them. I do know that it's like nannies, then the nannies do it. But so my empathy only goes so far. It starts and stops there. But it's got to be. That's got to be rough.

No. And I will admit there's been times on the show where I have talked positively about the way that she talks about parenting or her kids because I do think that she is a celebrity who appears to love her children and like to spend time with them. But again, in that family, it's just everything is for monetization. So how can you even sort out what is spending time? And her entire life is a product, right? Like literally.

So what is, what is, but, but I think when she does, she tries, I think, I've heard her try to do right by her kids, especially in talking about co-parenting with yay. And so, yeah, I do feel for her on that realm. But again, it was like, it was like, it was like when we were talking about like that the hard thing with Taylor now is that the person and the product have flattened into one thing. And I think because I think that with Taylor, there really used to be like, this is, this is who you are and this is your art. And then I think it kind of became, started things started to feel more commodified. Whereas with Kim, everything about that family has always been a product. Yes. And the four kids are a product.

Even the sex tapes. Yeah. Regardless of whether they wanted it or not, or a momager wanted it or not. So of course you're going to monetize your kid. And, you know. It's part of your business. Right. I mean, now it were like, in, I think that's why in a way, oh my God, MJ, me trying to describe.

Also, did you put the Pioneer Woman link on the darksided document last week, MJ? I did. Yes, I did. Because we were trying to find the ghost that did it because I thought Kara did it. And I was like, I couldn't believe you know who Pioneer Woman is. And she's like, I don't know who the hell Pioneer Woman is. I didn't put that on the list. And then I had to explain to Kara who the Pioneer Woman was.

OG Travel. Why we like her, but I will say that even, you know, it's like she, while her kids were always a part of what she did, she never necessarily made each one of them, like they became their own people. Right. She used them for background. Yes. Background decoration. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. Like they were scene setting materials. As children should be. And, you know, Ina Garden. can't do that. She just has Jeffrey. No. And I get you, bitch. I'm with you, I know. I'm out here just like, we're just drinking our wines, talking about her

husbands out on Fire Island. I'm going to send my Jeffrey with her, Jeffrey. And then there'll be the Jeffries Squared. And man, do you talk about how they'd clean up on Fire Island? I don't want to know. I don't want to know. But I do want to know how you're feeling. And if you want to let us know, you can hit us up at page 7 podcast at gml.com. because that has been your second helpings episode for you all today. My name is Jackie Zabrowski. You can follow me on Instagram at Jack That Worm. You can come hang out during MJ's book club.

I mean, what is the secret ingredient of the fudge cupcakes? I actually am curious. And you better let us know, MJ, because I love you, but I'm probably not going to be listening. So you got to keep me updated. Please. I'll let you know. Please know everybody. Yeah.

I mean, right now that information is behind a paywall, Jackie. Obviously. I will free the secret ingredient for all page seven listeners. You don't give it away for free, MJ. But also check out over on page 7 LPN on Instagram. We're going to be popping up our reviews of Dancing with the Stars this week as well. So check that out. We're going to be having some new fun stuff coming out for you on our socials.

So go give them a follow. Give them us a subscribe over on the YouTube. YouTube.com slash. page 7 pod, give us a subscribe so that you can hear whenever we're going live for you and wherever we got new stuff coming out for you. And MJ, where can we get you? I'm MJKL Kat on Instagram. I love you all. Jackie, shall we sing the song? We shall. This show is made possible by listeners like you. Thanks to our ad sponsors. You can support our shows by

supporting them. For more shows like the one you just listened to, go to lastpodcastnetwork.com.