Page 7 - Second Helpings - I've Lost Perspective

Episode Date: February 27, 2026

Jackie and MJ are BACK with another slippy sloppy servin' of SECOND HELPINGS! Up top reminiscing about everyone's favorite 'oldest of 6' Big Sis Kara Klenk from yesterday's episode as we dive into the different sib dynamics eeeeeveryone falls into, then IT'S A BETRAYAL ON LEVELS NO ONE HAS EVER SEEN because Jackie didn't tell MJ she was goin' to a DIRTY PUPPET SHOW CALLED "Puppet Up"! And the BETRAYALS just keep comin' as MJ watched the America's Next Top Model docu-series as instructed by Jackie last week....BUT JACKIE DIDN'T WATCH IT, but that's okay 'cause she was puttin' on an amaaaaazing "Monster Fuckers Against Ice" show. The docu-series just basically sums up as Tyra Banks bein' like Jake from Adventure Time, 'cause she 'didn't know it was wrong.' Leonardo DiCaprio and Tobey Maguire continue to be weird old men and are hittin' up Lisa Rinna's daughters, BUFFY SIDEBAR - Sarah Michelle Gellar got asked "Fuck, Marry, Kill" with Angel, Riley and Spike and her answer has us questioning EVERYTHING, Dax Shepard and Kristen Bell prove once more we should all know a lot less about each other, but what is NOT TMI is that Amanda Seyfried said she felt "so free" while filming the "Testament of Ann Lee" because she got to wear a prosthetic butthole and merkin, Matthew McConaughey did somethin' SHITTY to Timtim on the set of "Interstellar", and Jackie and MJ round out the show with some "Traitors" chat! PLUS SO MUCH MORE! Want even more Page 7? Support us on Patreon! Patreon.com/Page7Podcast Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes of Page 7 ad-free.Start a free trial now on Apple Podcasts or by visiting siriusxm.com/podcastsplus. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Oh, second time. Dude damn right. It's going to be great. It's going to be wonderful. And while we did have an amazing time with Kara on Tuesday, I always love it when Kara comes by. Love having Kara come by. She's got such a zest.

I feel like she really just has such, for me, she has such, like, the older sister energy that I crave, you know? She has such a one of six siblings energy. Oldest of six as well. Oldest of six. I'm saying old as a old. old. I'm not, I'm not shaming her. It's just, she

is the oldest of six siblings. And I feel like she just, that's why I love doing who's the bitch with her, because she has such a way with words that, the way in which she talks to me sometimes, I'm just like, you're right. You're right. Yeah, you know way more than I know

and you're barely older than I am and you know way more than I do. There's truly some special. I always say, I've taught so many families that have a lot of kids and I always And I've talked to my friends when they're thinking about, you know, how many kids to have. And I'm like, there is really, for whatever you lose with a lot of kids, there's something, your kid might not get as much parental attention or whatever. But there is like something so special about so many kids.

I know it's not always good. Six schizophrenic brothers. But there is something so special about people who come from big families. And there is just, I feel like you can spot an oldest of six from a mile away. And they got no time for anything. No, they ain't got no time. But they are very organized oftentimes, you know? And so kind.

Like, so kind. Oh, yeah. But, like, they don't have time for your bullshit, you know? No, but they, I feel like, and I can't say this for all oldest siblings. But let us know, is this the dynamic in your, in your sibling shit? Yes. Because I feel like, you know, you do always, but then it depends on, like, there's an age gap between Henry and my older sister. So it's like, it's like Henry was the middle child, but he also was the oldest.

Also an oldest, yeah. But so it's like one of those who really just depends on the dynamic you were in growing up. Yes. And I've got two youngest because my oldest is a baby when she became an oldest. And so much like Britney Spears will forever be 16, my oldest will forever be a baby. Yep, forever 16 months old. Yeah. Also a big sister.

And I say this with love. But I'm just like, I know this, we've talked about it. Like this is the dynamic. Like you weren't ready to become an older sister. So that's why you don't identify frequently as an older sister. And that's okay. Okay. Yeah, you are having much more experience. Dron out there, though. Zelda definitely does, though. I feel like she could definitely

lay the boot down if she wanted to at some point. Yeah, she's a little bit of everything. Sometimes I watch these, there's this guy who does TikToks of like oldest, middle, youngest and they're so funny. And I'm like, I think I, I think my youngest is both a middle and a youngest and sometimes an oldest. And then my oldest is like a 90% youngest, 10% oldest. Yeah. So I know that the sibling. roles are not always firm. But Kara is, that's an older sister. God, she's wonderful. And yet, though, it really is, as someone that is my peer that I've known for a very long time, there's something about specifically, she came on Jackin. Kara came on to co-host Jackin with me a couple

months ago. And for those, what is this mess? She had no idea what Jackin was. All she knew was that Holden and I get drunk on stream every Friday. And she's like, well, if Holden can ever not do it, let me know. I'd love to do it. And I was like, Great. And then she watched me because when Holden's not there, I produce the whole show. So I do it, you know, we do it all ourselves. And she's watching me do all these different things as I'm producing, as I'm hosting, as we're singing, as. And then also she just kept blowing her mind that she's like, and every time I look down, you've got the shot glass filled up. I don't even see you fill up the shot glass. How are you doing all of this? She just kept being like, how do you guys do all of this every Friday? Oh my God. I didn't realize this is what you do every Friday. And she was so impressed. And I was like, Kara was impressed by something I did. And it is, yes, getting drunk on Fridays. But it's a show produced by two youngest, okay?

And it gives off, and as we discovered when we discovered page seven with Holden is three youngests, yes, we give off three youngest energy. Yes. We are all extremely the youngest. And you and Holtz and are both extremely. But, you know, youngest can do things too. And they can, we can rise to a challenge. They can.

Every once in a while. If we want to, they're not always too tired to do anything, you know? Sometimes they'll do things. And that's you and olden every Friday. It really is, man. And not to jump away from how great Kara is, although we could do the whole episode. And we do need to, I feel like Kara, I forgot to let Kara know that we just, we spent four minutes talking about how great chas.

Glazing Kara clings. But I can't believe I didn't talk to you yet. We've talked multiple times this week. And I didn't tell you about pop it up, pop it up, pop it up. I don't know what you're saying. Pop it up. I'm saying puppet up because you have to say all of the audience in the show has to yell pop it up every time they put their puppets up.

Because apparently that is what is said when in working with puppets that when everyone's getting ready because you usually hold your arms down and right when you're getting ready to set, it's pop it up. Pop it up. And so you would say pop it up. All right, MJ, I have to tell you about their show. show. You saw a puppet show. I did see this on your Instagram and I thought, why didn't Jackie tell me about the puppet show? And then I thought, did she tell me about the puppet show? No, I did it. And here I am telling everybody about the puppet show because Rob, who is the producer

over at last podcast, he went to pop it up in like November. He was trying to get Jeff and I to go. It's run by the Henson Company. And he was like, I want to go see this and we just didn't have the time. He ended up going by himself. He had such an amazing time. that ever since he's like, you guys, we got to go see puppet up. The next time they come back, we've got to go see puppet up because it's like in seasons. So I've just said puppet up so many times that probably nobody knows what the word pop it up will ever mean. People have turned off the podcast by now. I can't hear her say pop it up one more fucking time.

But it also, you know you want to say it aloud. It is fun in the mouth. Pupp it up. Say it. Pop it up. It's fun. It is fun. I mean, it's no Baby Jane Doe, which I literally, if someone says the word pit, regardless if they're talking about the show or not, I do now say Baby Jane Doe. Oh, yeah. I see it when I see an ad on the subway, I say it to myself, Baby Jane Doe. Just walking around New York City whispering, baby Jane Do.

And, you know, also, it really, yesterday talking to Henry, he reminded me about how we need to keep saying quiet piggy as well. And I was like, thank you for bringing that back. Because Henry said quiet biggie to me. And I laughed so, it's just quiet piggy. We need to specifically say it to women. Okay, sorry. Pop it up. So it is created by Brian Henson, son of Jim Henson. And most importantly, Christmas Carol.

Christmas Carol was his first film after Jim Henson died and he fucking killed it. He killed it. And he did such a great job. And part of, you know, I'm sure that the sale of the Muppets to Disney was very lucrative for the Henson's and family, but what it didn't do was give an opportunity for all of their puppet friends that all the puppeteers that they know. And Brian Henson, I am fascinated by this, MJ, and I apologize for my not theater kids out there that or my not improv people out there. They're like, who gives a fuck, Jackie? But I was so sucked in. Brian Henson comes up and he's talking about

the reason why they created puppet up, which is a popper. It's a dirty puppet improv show. Incredible. It's a dirty puppet improv show. Incredible idea. I just said, MJ, I know that delights you. But there is a reason why it took me a couple of months to get to pop it up. Many people's worst nightmare.

Several worst nightmares layered on top of each other. Improv and puppets. And dirty. I'm not anti-dirty, but sometimes when a show is explicitly like, we're here to be dirty. I'm like, okay, what are we 13? And I love Avenue Q. Don't get me wrong. I don't know.

I love Amita Feebles. I love dirty puppets. Right. But this show, Brian Henson was explaining, he's like in the world of improv, when you're working with other people, you have to look at them. You have to be able to read that. You know, you have to be able to read them to be able to work with them properly. So they had to all learn a new system of improv because when you're puppeteering, you're

looking down at the TVs that are everywhere to see the puppet on the screen. Uh-huh. So the whole stage was set up with all of the screens around the stage for them to be anywhere

so they're always looking at the screen. But then they also had big screens up showing what it would look like on a television as well. Uh-huh. And they had to learn how to do improv by looking at the puppets

and being able to read the puppets to be able to do the improv because they can't look at each other. Incredible. And I am so fascinated about how difficult it must have been to get good at doing that. And now, like, every season are different performers. This is so cool. So every show is different. Every, and I was blown away.

I mean, and just to highlight that these are two distinct, discrete skills, right? Like, I know that a lot of people don't think improv is a skill, but it really is. And like, yes, improv has been sullied by whatever. But like, and we all know an annoying man who does improv or whatever. But like it is, it is a craft, you know. Yes. And it has to be learned.

And obviously puppetry is a craft. So to layer two completely distinct crafts atop one another. Oh, I love it. And to be able to, I just was like geeking out because to be able to, for Brian Henson to give a platform, honestly, I know I could never compare it to like an LPS. but it made me think of like the family dynamic of he's trying to employ his friends like they're all working together this is all of them working together to put on and Brian Henson does perform at some point oh my god that's so awesome and it's like the show is really like it's they're like $90 tickets which

at first I was like for a puppet fucking impression but you're seeing Brian Henson like I mean it's and they're all so musically trained as well. So they're all like improv music as well. Oh my God. Genuinely funny. Incredible. I can't believe. I saw it on Saturday and I haven't told you yet because you specifically MJ might be.

This is my exact. The exact wheelhouse. And I don't know if they already looked up tickets and they are only in L.A. They're only in L.A. Time for a visit. When you come into town, we are going to, we have to make sure that Puppet Up is performing because you have to see this show. I'm in love.

I'm looking at the website. I'm looking at the stage picture is I'm I'm in love. Thank you for telling me about this. Thank you for sharing. Just the fact that it exists. I needed everybody to know that, you know, it's like, you said, and sometimes you got to take that chance. I feel, I felt very, I had to apologize to Rob afterwards that I was like, Rob, I'm going to say

it. I was judging your ass. Yeah. And I didn't know if I was going to agree. And I was like, thank you. I was like, and he's like, I know you guys. I know you. I knew you would love it.

Rob's just the greatest. So it really was, it was a wonderful time. And I just wanted to tell you about it. I'm so glad you told me about it. Up it up. Now, is it my turn to tell you about something terrible, which is the America's Next Top Model documentary, or should we save that for later?

I think it's good because I feel like we're the yin and yang to each other in this episode because... There is good in this world and there is bad in this world. And there is bad. You know, there are great puppets and there are really bad Tyras out there. Now, last week... I'm going to confess to everybody. Last week, I said to MJ, we're going to watch the America's Next Stop Nogneuddle docuseries.

But last night, Natalie and I performed our Monsters Against Ice show for the first time. Yay. And it went so well. Thanks out. Huge thanks go out to Taylor and the ripped bodice for giving us this opportunity to be able to workshop our show on stage. But I have been reading nonstop trying to, because it's like, It's a show using portions of books to talk about different monster book things that you can fuck. And so I was trying to get as much weird core.

I was trying to pull from other stuff. So I was really focused on the show. And I just didn't watch it. I didn't do it. I didn't do my homework. You know what? Sometimes I tell my kids, sometimes we don't do our homework. And the world does not stop.

And that's fine. But at the same time, I am very excited for you. I did watch some America's Next Top Model, and I have definitely seen a lot of the highlights, low lights, of the show. So I would love to discuss you, because you're learning a lot of this for the first time. For the first time. I never watched it regularly. But, you know, also, of course, upon watching the documentary, the docu-series, you realize how completely part of this, of the culture this show was, even if you didn't watch it. Like, you know, how many memes of Miss Jay that I was like, oh, yeah, I know Miss Jay from the memes. Like, yes. And obviously the Tyra meme, we were all rooting for you. Like, there is so many aspects of this, and also a lot of the models. I'm like, oh yeah. And again,

a lot of memes, a lot of gifts. Like, oh, yeah, I know, I know you, I know you. I know you. Like, so. But only from this one specific moment. Right, right. But the show is, I think, saturated, it was saturated the culture in so many ways, which was an interesting thing about watching it as somebody who never watched it. So, right. So what I'm going to try to talk about is I'm going to try to make it, you know, if you are an America's Next Top Model person, please know that I'm not, and I'm sure there's a lot of context I'm missing. If you don't care about America's Next Top Model, I think that there is a way that this documentary, this docu-series is really interesting, even if you don't care about America's Next Top Model, which

I'm raising my hand. I didn't think I cared about America's Next Top Model. I get it. To me, the big And still thank you again for still watching the docuseries that I asked you to watch that I didn't do the whole book. This is me. Can you tell how Catholic I am? I need to self-flagellate. I need everybody to know. I didn't do the work. I didn't do the work.

I forgive you. I forgive you for your sins. Thank you. Do you need me to say a couple of Hail Mary's? You know, do one and then you're good. Okay. Let me throw this football real quick. Ah, come on.

Hey, it's a ball joke. What is she? person. So to me, the big picture framing of this docu-series, to me, what was so compelling about it, is that you have here, essentially, in 2026, we are revisiting something from about 25 years ago. And norms have changed. And this is something we talk about all the time on page seven. We've been doing page seven for 15 years. Norms have changed, right? We all did Roundtable when we were young. Norms have changed. Norms have changed. Pop culture has changed. We've changed. We've A lot of us have grown.

Totally, right? So certainly none of us is going to come out here and be like, you know, we've never done bad things. We've never made mistakes, all of that, right? But I think that what the docu series is, what's so interesting about the docu series is that everything that they did was bad. And I think what Tyra, especially, wants to say, Tyra especially wants to say about it is, And what she does say about it is, well, we didn't know any of the stuff back then that we know now. And I think that that is a bit of a cop out. Wow.

Right? Like I think. And I mean, certainly, biggest takeaway is that from Tyra, especially, arguably Miss Jay and Mr. Jay, too, but especially Tyra, very little, for Tyra, I'm going to say very little to zero accountability. For Ms. Jay and Mr. Jay, I'm going to say slightly more than Tyra. Okay, okay. But still not. For Ken Mock, not enough. Who is the producer? Yes. Not enough. No, not enough accountability from any of the people who were in charge of making decisions about this show.

And the entire framing of it is just like it was a different time. And I really don't think that that is enough. as somebody who was, oftentimes in 2010, I was the comedian being like, hey, guys, I don't think that's okay. And people would be like, shut the fuck up. So I don't think that it's always true that nobody knew. And I'm not saying that to pat myself on the back. I also went way too hard and way overcorrected about trying to do things right. And sometimes I did things wrong. So that's not even, but I'm just, I don't think that nobody knew it was wrong to,

body shame people 25 years ago. I don't think that nobody knew it was wrong to be racist 25 years ago. I think they knew that it made television that people would watch. Exactly. I know that's what they were doing. We are talking about horrific

misogynistic racist, the misogynoir, the intersection of racism and misogyny in the first season, with the first episodes of the show. We are talking about rape on camera. We are talking about sexual harassment on camera. We are talking about traumatizing these young, young women on camera.

We are talking about, I mean, not even to get into all of the disordered eating stuff. And I just don't think it's true that nobody knew that was wrong 25 years ago. It is true that it was the norm. But that doesn't mean it wasn't wrong. It is true. It was the norm, especially like even the scene that was filmed, the sexual assault that was filmed when it's just like, Oh, you were just drunk. It's like, yes, someone that incapacitated with everyone watching, you probably, someone,

someone could have said something. So anybody, but they knew that everyone would love the footage. And that is horrific. Horrific. And it is true that the norms are different. I didn't, if you asked me in 2010, if I saw that scene and if you asked me, is that sexual assault, I don't know what I would say. I don't know.

Like, it is true. that we spoke about it much differently than we do now. Totally. We really did. Yes. Yes. We had a specific definition of what sexual assault was in the norm, in, in, in mainstream culture for my entire life was, you're in an alley and there's a stranger, right? It was there was.

And then we kind of had the phrase date rape, but people also had a very limited, were very limited in how they were willing to engage with that type of stuff. So it's true that we have a much more. expansive understanding of consent and assault and stuff now. But even the sound guy and the film guy right after the assault, we're like, sorry, we had to film that. Right.

As they're like walking by, it's like, you know that it's wrong. Like, you're right. We were more used to it then, but we should have, as human beings should have known that it was wrong. And again, this isn't to say, like, I'm not, like, I'm not saying like, well,

if you were part of these norms at the time, then you're a bad person. Like, this is how norms work. We do what everyone else around us is doing. And it doesn't mean that you should have like automatically known that every, like I understand, like, I honestly, I think watching this documentary, it's, it's, it, what it looks like is that everyone in the early 2000s was it a state of mass psychosis, you know, and, and it wasn't just the fashion that showed it, but it was everything. Like, and, and what you get in the documentary, I mean, Tyra doesn't,

apologize to Shandy, the girl in question that we're talking about at all. She says, I wasn't part of production, so I wasn't part of the editing on that. It's completely, she does apologize to another girl who was groped on camera and asked it to stop and they didn't stop. She does, Tyra, the talking head in this docu series, present day, Tyra does say that was wrong. She doesn't say that about Shandy, or if she did, they didn't put it in. She just says, I wasn't part of the, I wasn't part of the editing. It's completely, oh, that wasn't really, like it's passing the buck. Everyone is passing the buck.

Ken Mock is passing the buck. Well, that was just the time. This was what reality was at the time. This is the time. This is the time. And it's like, at what point do we say that yeah, this was the norm. And also, it's, it's, that doesn't mean that it was right, you know, and it doesn't mean that there's, I don't know, I guess not that it wasn't right, but it was like,

there doesn't mean there's no accountability for being part of a norm that was wrong, you know? So I think that's, that's to me the most interesting thing about this. Like, it's totally, like, you, like, there are so many things that I have said into microphones on the internet that I do not stand by. I have made so many mistakes publicly. So I'm definitely not a purist here. Like, we have all made mistakes publicly. And, but I do think that if you know you have made mistakes publicly, the only way forward is to be like, I have made mistakes. Acknowledge and accept.

Yes. And, and apologize. And it doesn't. sound like, yeah, I said a bunch of stuff that I shouldn't have said, but here's why, and here's why and here's why. And everyone else is doing it. That's different. What you got to do is just be like, yeah, I said a bunch of stuff that I shouldn't have said, and then you stop. You know what I mean? And that's not what this is. What this is is, is Tyra being like, well, yeah, but this was what the fashion industry was at the time. This was what the beauty norms were at the time. This

was, I was trying to help them. It's just, she's got a hundred reasons why she tortured these young women on camera, you know, and that's not an apology. It's. It's a lot. It's, it's a It's not a reckoning. It's not an account. It's not accountability. It's not anything. No. It's just.

And I'm going to guess these women didn't get paid out any, like, were there any, like, settlements, did they ever, were there, was there any recourse with what they went through? I mean, certainly not. Or did they get into it? Not that they get into. I have a little bit left of episode three. But what most of the women talk about is how much it didn't get them a career. It was actually, it was.

it was actually hurtful for them overall for their career. I mean like the person that had like the bald spots or like you know when they're ripping out their teeth. Yeah. The women they ripped their teeth out. They shaved a black woman's head with like totally improper tools. Like public humiliation.

And like while giggling about it. While giggling and making fun of her natural hair. Yeah, they forced a woman to close the gap in her teeth even though she was begging to keep it because it was something she loved about herself. They pulled a, a woman's four of a woman's teeth. I mean, and these are not even the top

profile incidents of what happened on this show. Like, it is astonishing. And I'm also, just to be clear, I'm not saying, if you watched and loved America's next top model at the time, I'm not saying like, you're bad and you should have known. It's just like what this is. Everyone was watching it. It was

completely, everybody, it wasn't seen through that lens at all, except that I certainly wasn't watching a lot of it, because of the amount of fat shaming in it. Yeah. And as somebody that in the early 2000s, I was in such a young,

prescientable place that I just remember watching the show genuinely being like, if they're fat and they're ugly, what am I? Right. And like, oh, I'm just a dumpster. And I just, it was at such an impressionable time of my life that it, but that would make me watch it more as well

because I feel like I'd have to like get to know more about this other side of like beautiful privilege and like what they go through even though it had nothing to do with any of that. But I do feel there was a level of that in my brain of, I mean, you know, again, Ray's Catholic. And I do love feeling bad about myself. And also, another thing that was coming up for me and watching this is that it was, reality was new, right? Like totally, like, Tyra says the inspiration for the show was that she loved American Idol and real world. And she was like, what if we combine the two? It's like a contest. to see who's going to be a model and also they all live together.

And so we're talking early, early reality. Also, great idea. It really is. It is on paper a very good idea. To have modeling challenges, like the picture challenge, like all that stuff. And there are some, I'm surprised I'm saying this, there are some redeemable and or interesting things about Tyra. Oh, you're pro Tyra. Oh, everybody's going to know.

MJ pro Tyra Neffel over here. I think that she, at least in the first episode, it's like she's framing it as like, you know, I, there were so few black models at the time. And I thought that I could like bring something, some interesting perspective as like, I felt like an outsider in this industry. But like, what if I could share my knowledge and like find other people who might be, you know, I think she kind of pitches it. It's like, oh, I'll also find other people who could be outsiders in the industry. But then she spends the entire show upholding the most oppressive. aspects of the industry, right? And so when in fact

part of what made Tyra special with that, she was different than the norm in the industry. But she wouldn't want that for other people. Other people. Like forcing people to close their gap, like the tooth gaps and stuff like, you know, no one will be unique. And like, yes, there was somebody

who was like a plus size model who won. Oh my God, plus. She was a size six. Yeah, which is not plus size. She said she was 5, 10, and 115 pounds, and she was considered plus size. Which, you know, at least that has changed, you know? Question mark. But, you know, and so, but I also, I think that in the reason I always like.

Question mark, as we watch it all go back. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, who knows? And I want to say, I want to repeat the phrase mass psychosis because I also remember watching reality in the early 2000s. And we all knew it was crazy, right? Like, I think that's it. Like, we all, like, we're all like, this is crazy. Like, like, oh my God, like the race swapping challenge.

Yes. Oh, yes. I remember that happening in real time being like, what is happening? What? What is happening? Yeah. Like that's the thing. Like, oh, no one knew.

No, no, no. We did know by the year 2000. We knew Blackface was wrong, right? Yeah. And Tyra literally verbatim says, we didn't know what we know now. And that is, and I just want to highlight that because there's obviously, there's always going to be, ways that we look back at culture in the past and be like, oh my God. And also ways we were complicit in it, we were part of it, the things we did. And there's, that's all going to happen.

But there's also a real way of letting oneself off the hook, I think, to be like, like, I'm thinking, this is obviously totally different and much more serious topic. But like when my kids were learning about Martin Luther King and like segregation and stuff. And one of them was like, you know, when I was talking about Rose Parks and the boss. I'm glad that in mom, Donnie. New York they can still learn about it. Yeah, I know. It's nice. It is nice. We live in a state where they're still allowed to learn about that. And one of my kids was like, well, would we have been racist if we lived at this time? And, you know, and I'm like, I was trying to figure out how to answer it. My God, you're just like, geez, God. Oh, God. And the questions they're going to ask are just

going to get harder and harder. It's like, you know, well, let's break this down. Let's talk about the tie. Let's talk about where we would be. Let's talk about what we would be. And I have, and I have an instinct to be like, well, of course we wouldn't because it's wrong. Yeah. And then also, like, also a lot, it was the norm. Like, the norm was for, for, for, for, you know, most white people in these areas to be racist. But I also, when I said to her, I was like, it was much more normal for white people to just be actively racist. And also, there were still white people who knew it was wrong. And I just feel like as we look back on, as, as what feels to us like, I'm not going to bring up Cursealli's parents.

death, which I did find out about not that long ago. But we should, we should bring that up. Just kind of all wrap into it, you know? Yeah, we should bring that up. But it's just, it's like, I think it as we look at culture and how culture changes, it's very uncomfortable to realize if we were part of something or actively did things that were harmful. And it doesn't mean that we have to like hate ourselves or dwell on it.

But I also don't think it's as easy as being like, well, nobody knew. In the year 2000, nobody knew it was wrong to do a, photo shoot of bulimic models. Like, I'm pretty sure that we could have found any mental health professional in the year 2000 to say bulimia is a problem. We knew. And like the race swapping challenge where Tyro's like, looking at it now, I guess it was an issue. She does not apologize.

But also, they do bring up, they did it twice. You can't even be like, it's like, oh, the one time. Oh, yeah, I, they did it twice. They did so many bad things so many times. That's like, it's like, yeah, you can't be like, well, our first season was a little rough and then we smoothed out. Everything they did was bad. It was everything, like so many bad things over and over. Like, and yeah, so it's, it's, it is a wild, wild ride.

And Tyra is just like, how many people can I blame who are me and how many ways can I tell you that I actually didn't do anything wrong? And, you know, that's, that's it. It's got to be such an amazing brain space to live in, to look at that docu series. And for Tyra to still just be like, I'm should to keep on keeping on. That's crazy. But how do you, how do you reckon with the fact that you built that you are only famous right now? Because you did something hot ice cream. So monstrous.

Because of Mottland and hot ice cream, yes. Hot ice cream, yes. And yes, they do also bring up the part of the Tyra Banks. Model land? They didn't bring up Model land that I saw, but they did bring up the Tyra Banks episode. The daytime talk show, Tire Banks episode where she dressed as a homeless person because then she used that as inspiration for a challenge on America's Next Top Model and had all of them dressed like homeless people. Do they bring up when she puts on the fat suit for the Tira show as well?

They didn't. So that she knew then. You know? No, they didn't. And there was for every time, for every part of the documentary where I found myself wanting to be generous to Tyra, I remembered the fat suit. And I remembered the homeless cosplay. Yep. And then I remembered.

And then I listened to all the women. And then you remember everything else. And you're just like, wow. Wow. And it's crazy that we're, she's still in the zeitgeist. Like she's still in. I think, I think she is, I think she has been relegated to a part of the zeitgeist where no one knows what to do with her. But, correct.

I mean, even the sexual assault on camera that we were talking about, she then had Shandy on her daytime talk show. And despite Shandy have said, I never have watched that footage and I don't want to, Tyra made her watch it and then made her talk about it. So she, again, she traumatized this woman and then she did it again. The show is like, how can I repeatedly traumatize people and fuck up, fuck them up, not just once, but over and over. And so, yes, she is still famous.

she's still part of the zeitgeist, but how, that's another interesting part of the documentary. What do you do with somebody who has made something that is a household name? Everybody knows America's next hot model, integral to culture for a decade. And then now we're all just here. And because of the consciousness raising that has happened over the last decade, everyone just looks at her just like, fuck, what the fuck do we do with this? You know, this is by far not the craziest thing she's done. I was just looking up Tyra Banks and it was like, what? And there's all these headlines started coming up about this $50,000 controversy.

So I was just quickly looking into it. And it, this is a little crazy. So we're talking about that, you know, Smy's is Tyra Banks' word. Smize ice cream is the ice cream that she made. That's her cold ice cream. That's different from her hot ice cream. Different from the hot ice cream. But she had tried to open her flagship store for Smy's ice cream in Washington, D.C.

she signed a 10-year lease for her Smy's ice cream, and then she just fucking bounced from the country. After this landlord had built out the whole store and got it all ready for her, then she never paid rent, she went, she moved to Australia, opened the store in Australia, and now she's suing the guy that's coming after her to be like, you signed a 10-year lease. And she's like, and I broke it.

And he's like, and you now owe me money. And yet still, she's suing him. Correction. I broke the lease. It's like that you still owe the money. Oh, the money. That's so funny. I forgot that she just fled.

I mean, I guess that is what do you do when you have, when you spent a decade building something that is obviously one of the most toxic, reprehensible aspects of mainstream culture at that time? You flee. You run. You run. Girl, get out of here. Australia don't want you either. I highly, oh my God. Is it, oh, no, I guess there was a smize that opened for half a second in Cali.

And it's already closed, I guess. Yeah, it's an interesting one, man. Even like, I found it fascinating, even though I never watched A&TM, but it's because I was alive during that time. You know, so if you have any memory of what the early. 2000s was like, I think this could be interesting for you just because, and it really does show how norms have changed. And obviously, sometimes there's overcorrections and not everything's good now, obviously. But man, I like to think that we would not have a show where we are, you know, pulling out women's teeth. But maybe I'm wrong. But, you know, and also I apologize. I'm going to say,

I'm sorry, Tyra. The hot, Smy's cream is Smy's. But it's just a subsection of Smy's ice cream. And the subsection is hot smize cream. I need to know less about this ice cream. I think I need to do a full docu series unpacking model land and why she wrote it, where she got the ideas from, why she's so fucked up and why the book was put out in the first place. Also, if you are ever curious, back in pandemic, go back in time over on the page 7 Patreon. I did the Jackie's book club full audio of Model Land.

And that was back when I was first starting to do Jackie's book club. That was back. I am personally curious to go back and relisten to wherever my fucking brain was. Talk about mass psychosis. I mean, I know I wasn't in a good headspace, but I was. was talking to myself while doing the audio book narration for Model And so check it out on the page 7 Patreon. It is, it's there. You just got to go back and look back to like 2020. Yeah. Yeah. So of course, I would love to hear your guys's thoughts on this. I'm sure that I

got things wrong and, you know, and no, we appreciate your work. I would love to hear other people's perspectives. But everyone, tell me what you need me to do to make you. you feel better about the fact that I lied about watching America's next top model docu-series that I didn't do it you tell me what I need to do to make you feel better because I need it. But does Lisa Rina need it? I did not include this in the articles. This just popped up.

Yes, she's having a hard time. What's going on with Lisa Rina? But honestly, it's not even about her hard time. Lisa Rina claims Leonardo DiCaprio and Toby McGuire has hit up. They've both hit up her two daughters. Oh. multiple times. I did look it up, though.

They are 24 and 27. So it means they are of age. They are of age and they are of the age. But they are of the age. They are of the pussy posse age. And I don't know if I'd like it. But I guess if you give in the opportunity

with your full grown children, I guess if Leonardo DiCaprio wanted to bang my full grown child, I mean, I guess I'd be like, yeah, Bangliener to Gabriel. Here's the thing. And I'm not saying this to defend Toby McGuire because I, again, I plug my ears and I go, la, la, la, la, la,

when I hear about him being a badman. But if you are in your 20s, sometimes my hand is raised, you make a bad choice, and you know it's a bad choice. And you just do it because you want to. And you decide that you're going to hang out with a man who you know is bad news.

And as long as it's not like bad, capital B bad news, but he's just a scumbag. That's fine. Have a good time. You know, like, and I'm just saying that's a choice that people in their 20s can make. Oh, yeah. Oh, I think a couple of us have made those choices. Jack and I made some of those choices.

And sometimes we regret it. And sometimes we don't. I made a couple of stupid choices that I would make again. That I still think about. Yeah, great time. And I had a great time. And really, yeah, you're like, wow, that's, yeah. And, you know, and it's one of those that I think it was only a couple nights special.

And people are like, that's a bad man. And I'm like, I know. I know. Let me. Yeah, look at how we feel about Spike, MJ. Think about how we feel about Spike. Sometimes we like a bad boy, okay? Yes.

I'm not. Sometimes you hurt the ones you love, MJ. And I'm not sure the extent of Toby McGuire's crimes. And so maybe he's worse than a bad boy. Oh, also real quick, Buffy sidebar. Someone sent me a, like a clip of Sarah Michelle. Oh my God, I can't believe I didn't even tell you. Sarah, this side.

And that's sidebar within the sidebar. Sarah Michelle Geller, because they're all. starting to do the PR now because there's going to be the reboot at some, you know, it's coming down the pipeline. And Sarah Michelle Geller was asked, fuck Mary Kill, Angel Riley, Spike. No. And she said, No, don't tell me. Fuck Angel. Okay. Weird. Weird. Spike. Mary Riley. No.

And I wanted to throw my phone in the dumpster. That is, I, that ruins Buffy. Dumpster. You're going to fuck Angel after what happened when you fucked Angel? You're going to fuck Angel? And I'm like, do you need to go back and rewatch it, girl? Yeah, do you not remember? I need a new perspective.

Does that mean that Freddie Prince Jr. is the Riley in this situation? Because that's... Yeah, I guess. I hate to cast a shadow on the legacy of Freddie Prince Jr. But I really feel like this makes me see everything differently. I know. And I did appreciate the person that had sent me this on Instagram was just like,

this has got to be rage bait. All right? It's rage bait to get us to talk about the show. And I was like, yeah, it's a rage bait only for Buffy Faye. Like, it is rage bait, though. Throw my phone. across the road. Riley! Wow!

Kill him first! Always get him first! Yeah, you obviously kill Riley and then whichever, whether you fuck or marry Spike or Angel doesn't matter. But also, sidebar within the sidebar. Last night at my Monsters Against Ice Show, I met Tiffany, Tiffany, who was the lead stunt person for Buffy on Buffy. No!

Yes! And I was like, Tiffany, I, and I was like, can I hug you? I was like, you are such a hero to me. You're the show. You're doing the work. I was like, that show would be nothing without you. It's you. She was so humble.

And she was like, I really, I was like, you don't understand. And because in Monsters Against Ice Show, of course I talk about Buffy a bunch. So she was like, it was just funny. But it was funny because she was there with her partner. And her partner was the fan. And now she's like, well, now I'm a fucking fan. So awesome show. And I was like, this is so cool.

I really, it was, I think it was nice. I think it's wonderful to flip out for something. Because like the look on her face, she did not expect me to react like that. And I was so excited. Tiffany, if you're listening, we will gift you a $10 Patreon to your membership so that you can hear us experience. Buffy. Please. And our admiration for your work.

for you and your work because we know it wasn't Sarah Michelle Geller. We know it wasn't her doing any of it. You had to come in and do all of it. Wow. So I'm giving you shout out, Tiffany, and to your wonderful partner. I love talking to you guys and just, oh, it really was, it felt like a full weird circle moment, MJ. Wow. You know, it was one of those.

Okay, now, total gear shift, but I wanted to ask you if you want to talk about this. If we don't want to talk about it, we don't have to. But you sent along. Night of the Seven Kingdoms? Is it Night of the Seven Kingdoms? You know who wants to talk about Night of the Seven Kingdoms? My husband. Gideon.

Get Gideon over here. I just want to talk about Night of the Seven Kingdom. Last night, he was like, maybe you should watch it. Won't Jackie be happy if you watch it? And I was like, don't use Jackie against me. Jackie would be happy if you'd watch it because it was so good. No, what I'm thinking about is this the cut essay called I Love My Husband, who hates me, which is about Kristen Bell and Dax Shepard.

And I guess what's interesting to me about this, I have not read the essay. It is behind a paywall and I just haven't gone to the effort of, you know, doing the thing. Because we know about the website because you guys are amazing. Thank God for that website. Honestly, I don't care enough about this. And if we're going to talk about it, I know I should have read it, but I haven't. But I think that what is interesting to me about it is it's like the parisocial analysis of a celebrity relationship from the outside, right? And also for those that don't know, the cut essay, there's just a little burrow. bond it. It's like, essentially the tagline is, nothing inspires rage like a woman who defends

her partner's bad behavior. And it's all... So that is what the whole essay is about. Right. And it's all about, and I think it was kind of the, the catalyzing event for this is that, um, extremely weird post that Christa Bell had that was about their anniversary. And she said, happy 12th anniversary to the man who once said to me, I would never kill you. A lot of men have killed their wives at a certain point, even though I'm heavily incentivized to kill you, I never would. And everyone was like, like that gif of, uh, of Salita Meyer from Veep where she's just like chuckling and goes, huh, what the fuck? You know? Like, that's, that's, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's, that's, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's, yeah, yeah, yeah. But also, apparently if you listen to their

show and that's why I loved, like, when Cher was on and Cher just was openly, like, Kristen Bell, you could do a lot better than this. And I don't know why you're with him. Um, but I, and I, And it wasn't even that mean. But apparently if you watch the show, their dynamic is deemed, and I don't listen to the show, but a lot of people talk that their dynamic is fairly toxic. Right. And so it's some of it, the cut essay is like an outsider looking at the public presentation of this relationship and being like, this is so toxic, this is so fucked up.

Like he is such a kind of like fail son and she is this like very talented person. What's going on with this? But then Monica Padman, who co-hosts a show with Dax, so obviously is going to be on Team Dax. But she said, stop doing this. It's anti-feminist to say, Kristen, an uber successful woman is stuck in a relationship where she's forced to defend her husband. It assumes she has no agency, confidence or opinions of her own, all of which are completely untrue and a dangerous idea of spread about women. Which I do also have to say kind of hits for me, too. Like, I think the idea of a bunch of people who aren't in a relationship looking at a relationship from the outside based on things.

that often public, you know, obviously that Instagram post was like a public choice. You know what it is? It's apparently too on armchair expert that it's like that they talk about their huge screaming fights. They talk about wanting to divorce each other a lot. There's a lot like they. And I here's the, I think that a lot of people like them and find it relieving to see that other relationships are like, you know, a relationship you either have or may have had. Right. But I would hope that it would also shine a little light on maybe I shouldn't be in a

relationship if someone is, if we are treating each other this way. Yeah, right. Maybe we're not good for each other. Yeah. And they keep saying like, you know, oh, marriage is constant work. Marriage is constant work. And everyone in a marriage, everyone in like a friendship knows that, like, friendship, yeah, relationships is constant work.

But I guess in the way in which they talk about it, it's like a, this is that constant grind of partnership yeah no it's like a love is blind when when two people are clearly not supposed to be together and they're just like I mean love is hard and it's like it's not supposed to be that hard um so yeah I don't know I just thought that this was an interesting question of like the line between identifying public toxic behavior or between weighing in a relationship that you're not a part of specifically you don't hear it you don't see And when I was specifically with celebrities, like, I think if you're, if you're, if you have a couple in your group of friends where everyone is like, that's a really fucked up relationship, that's different. I'm not saying like, well, you don't know unless you're in the relationship. But I do think that just because of there is this, this. But you can get a private perspective from one or both of them. Yeah. And we're not going to get a private perspective of Kristen Bell or Dak Shepard. We're not, we're and we're never going unless you are friends with them. Right. Right. And. And you might know more then, but, and I mean, I will say on the outside of it, it makes me not want to listen to the show.

It makes me not want to. I mean, it's certainly profound turn off. It's not for me. Yeah. Yeah. It is at all. Totally. Right.

Yeah. So it's, it's, but I also do think that sometimes there is a, like a way and the blurring of the lines between famous people and not famous people does sometimes lead to a kind of like collective pathologizing of famous people. as if you're part of their friend group and you're like, we don't actually know, even if you listen to the podcast, you might not, podcast is a performance, right? But, but, yeah, also sometimes you see something really fucked up happening in public and you've got to point out that it's fucked up. So I don't know.

Yeah, I thought this was an interesting one. Yeah, it really, and I, I guess if I did want to learn more, I'd listen to their podcast. Yeah, right. But I am kind of annoyed by all of it. And I feel that, and I know, and I will say, I've received feedback of people that get annoyed because I talk about how much I love my husband. And I understand.

It does. It is often from Holden, yes. Actually, probably primarily from Holden, yes. But only from Holden, yes. Stop him writing from false accounts every day. He's not your best friend. Stop talking about how much fun you have together. Stop saying that you work well together.

I know. It's difficult. And I get that. But I also, that's a, that's a, okay. That's why some people don't listen to this and that's okay. Yeah. Yeah. Right. But I just can't. But I did, you know, I made me want to look into more of Kristen Bell when she was on the Netflix show. It's the name of it is escaping me right now. The one we both watched. Oh, yeah. With Adam Brody. Nobody wants this. Nobody wants this. And I blight her and she's there.

She's great. She's great actress. She really is a great actress. I just, yeah, I guess I don't think I want to know anymore about them on the inside. I think they keep it all on the inside for me. Yeah, no. I agree. And I'm going to throw, this is also sidebar, I guess. What is it? Jackie's book club, Jackie. I haven't seen the Testament of Anne Lee yet. And I know that the Testament of Anne Lee is supposed to be a great movie. But I keep seeing a headline that says, Amanda Seafree details wearing prosthetic butthole in testament of Anne Lee nude scene. And I don't. Wanna. And then underneath the tagline, it says, Amanda Seafried shared that she wore prosthetic butthole and a Merkin while shooting a nude scene for her 2025 film, Testament Van Lee. And then she said, quote, I felt so free. I don't want to look into it anymore because I now want, this is making me want to go see the book like great PR. Now I got to go see. Why do we know she has a prosthetic mud hole? I got to go see it. I want there to be a different phrase than prosthetic butthole. But I don't want it to. But what do you want to be? I don't want it to be prosthetic anus.

Fake, fake ass. Put your vaguely my fake ass. I don't know what I want. I don't. Oh, what do you? You like, faux bottom? It's my full bottom. I think I'd be, that would piss me off if someone referred to their prosthetic butt hole as their fobottom.

I'm not a big fan of the word bottom for ass. Anyway. Ooh, yeah. I think that it takes, I do feel that, like, in saying it to like a child, like sit on your bottom. I feel like that's fine. That's fine. I was,

we were talking about this in the show last day in the same way that like there's yucks and yums in like the monster fucker universe. There's also yucks and yums in just regular human fucking. Like I don't like the word slit.

I don't like the word gash. And I don't like anybody that refers to a partner or their own penis as like a weenie be genie. You know, like I don't want baby words for a cock. You know? Oh my Lord.

I'm telling you what I don't like. I'm telling you what I don't like. hurts. I don't like it either. Oh my God. It's, but we have to talk about these. We have to know the words we like and that we don't like. And it's okay to not like some of them. And you don't like prosthetic butt hole. Yeah. You want real ass. Show us the real hole, Amanda. No, it's not that I don't like a prosthetic. What are you, Tyra Banks? It's not that I don't like prosthetic butthole. It just feels like there should be a word in between butthole and anus. That's more formal than butthole and less formal.

But I'm... Then anus. I can't. I need to stop. I need to talk about something else. I think you need to see this movie. I think I need to find out why it's prosthetic. It does kind of remind me the one, the line that Amber Nelson had when we were doing LPN Funhouse and one of the things was, and we had to ask her consent, of course.

Usually nobody knows what's going to happen on Funhouse until you're doing Funhouse. But we did have to ask Amber because I had come up with the. idea that either Amber or I show each other. Like I said, I was going to show Amber my asshole. And I was going to bend over and like it was going to be covered under like everyone's going to see me pull down my pants. I was going to bend over and I was going to show her my asshole. And I thought that that was like a great. I was like, it's something we can really shoot for. Fun workplace activity. And then it was like after the meeting that I'd come up with this, I started thinking about it. And I was like, I mean, and then I was like, I guess I'm fine with it.

I think I'm fine with it. And then I brought it to Amber. And when Amber looks at you like you're fucking insane, that's when you know, you're like, oh, I've spiraled. I've gone mad. I've lost perspective. Yeah. I've lost perspective.

And she looked at him and was like, I'm not going to do that. And I was like, you're right. You're right. I shouldn't have even brought it to you. I'm going to be real with you. I shouldn't have brought it to you. Yeah. But I also didn't need Holden.

Like, what do you want Holden? and Ed and be like, Holden, can I show you my asshole? Like, you know that's not going to happen. I think in this case, any workplace asshole needs to be prosthetic, honestly. I'm pro-prosthetic asshole. Now that I know that it's an option, maybe for the next fun house, then I say, Amber, what if the butthole is prosthetic? Yeah, that opens up whole new doors of showing your asshole in the workplace. But then you still got to go through the whole process of like taking off the pants, like having to bend over, having a pull, like it is still a process. It's still quite intimate, for sure.

And I was fine with Amber seeing my asshole, I think. Now, then I was worried that what if I had done it? And then afterwards I was like, why did I do that? Yeah, you're going to spend your whole life questioning. Did she, did you pressure her into? Into showing her my asshole? Because that was the thing even, it's like, and then I was like, I was like, I guess I could do it to Jeff.

Because you've seen my asshole. And he's just like, yeah, but then that takes it into a weirder direction that I feel like that also shouldn't be happening live on, on your brother's network. I feel like that's just true. And I was like, yeah, I guess. Am I screwed up? This is what, this is, you know, we didn't have an intimacy coordinator back in the America's next top model days, but we do have the net. We know things now that we didn't know that. You know? Yeah. And I will say we're not bringing them them in for, if LPN hired an intimacy coordinator, I don't know. I'd be like, what are you going to make us do? one got to hear. What are you about to do, does?

Full-time intimacy coordinator at LPN. Don't ask what they do. Just know that they have a job. This is really reminding me, Jackie, of the story you sent about how Matthew McConaughey took a dump in Timothy Chalemay's toilet on the set of Interstellar. And, you know, I think that if we can look back at the generation 25 years ago and say, wow, we had no protections in place for anybody, do we look at Timothy Chalemay's reaction to Matthew McConaughey taking a dump in his toilet. And do we say, perhaps this is an overcorrection, buddy, because he took it really personally. He took it so. I want to say, if I didn't have an ick about Shamelam a ding dong before, and I didn't

really, I don't want to kiss him. I want to kiss Lori from little women. We all know this. I just don't want to kiss Timothy, Shamelama ding dong. And I was so annoyed. I, he, you know, it's just, he's very talented. He's a very talented young man. His head is so far up his own fucking ass.

He's blinking his lips. Like, I can't, I, it annoys me to such an extreme. And him being like, and Matthew, because like Matthew McConae, apparently, like, he thinks it's funny on the final day of filming to leave a turd inside of the end. he was like, he broke into my space. And it's like, okay, I know we shouldn't make fun of somebody. I know we should. I know we should.

I felt so disrespectful. He dropped a deuce in your, like, it's also your trailer. This is not your personal, if it was your hotel room. Okay. But it's like your trailer, people are coming and going all day. Like, it is your personal space. You're right. But like, or if he had shit in his pillows.

Like, I would be like, I think that went too far. to a Q-Sack, you know, he left a turd in the toilet. He left a turd in the toilet. And you know what? If you weren't, if you aren't, and maybe this is me and Jackie's millennial showing, because there is a time every so often where I'm like, tough it up, you know, like, it's a turn. It's fine. Pranks are fine, you know. But maybe, Gen Z or maybe this is a violation. I don't know. There's, or if it was like a David Harper where you'd been like, you'd been, like, with this person that makes your life so tense every day. You have to, and then they do something like that. I also would under, like, if this were Millie.

Bobby Brown and even a hardboard done it. I would be like, oh, that's, yeah, I would be very upset about something like that. Great point. The context of the turn in the toilet matters. If you have an otherwise very fun working relationship, turn the toilet reads differently than if you're been menaced by somebody. Totally fair. But even if you're team Chamalette, Shamillamay and not team me and Jackie on this, listen to what he did. He went around to all the grips. I went around to all the grips. He went to the grips. and accused them. This is also what I was like, so you went to the workers.

That worked so hard for you to do what you do. And you asked them if they did it. I went around to all the grips, these big guys. And I said, hey, one of you let loose in my trailer. They said, no. I went up to Nolan. He pointed to Matthew and Matthew had this devilish grin on his face. I said, why did you do that?

Matthew said, in Texas, it's a coming of age, baby. and yeah And then he said afterwards he goes It's a souvenir I It's not But then like of course people online are like Absolute trash behavior

How could they Garbage man And I'm not You y'all know I'm not a poopy humor now And even I'd be like Yeah he got me Yep

Yeah you let that shit in my toilet up You know It is I do think Taking a shit in someone else's toilet If everything else is fine is a relatively victimless crime. You're so right. David Harbor,

Millie, Bobby Brown would be having a different conversation. But to find a shit in your toilet and then to go accuse all of the low-level workers is such a stupid move, man.

I just, I feel like it's like, doesn't that go against the union? I feel like I'd walk off. Like, fuck you. Fuck you. Fuck you. Do you realize how hard I work?

Do you realize I make a fraction of what you make? Yeah. Do you, like, I, and then all I'm hoping is that this is me flip because like I would I could never like I couldn't even imagine and he just has his head up his ass that if he had come to me and I was working on that set and you can't of course flip out of timetathe shamlammed dingon. You went to the director? I would have definitely because there's a poop on your toilet?

I don't know like I guess it's I guess a trailer's private and everything but I'm just like how many times have I gone to a bathroom and there's a shit in it and you just slush and keep it moving? You flush it and you keep it. You got to keep on moving. You gotta flush that turn. And God get so upset. Oh no. You got to keep it flushing. Yes.

We have to keep it flushing, Tim. Keep it moving. There's other stuff going on. And like there was this like, it was like framed as a cute date night that it was Timothai's, I believe it was his 30th birthday. It was his birthday recently. And Kylie Jenner was taking him somewhere. And I guess he was in a bad move.

And he was just like, man, and I was so shitty and I was so grumpy all the way. And then she had set it up that they went to a movie theater because I guess Interstellar is his favorite movie of his. And so they go and they watch the movie. She had set it up for them to watch it. And afterwards, he's like, maybe I shouldn't have been so upset because it's like one of my favorite movies to watch. And so. Then this story comes out with the Matthew McConae thing. And I was like, oh, my, and it's just all of it.

Timothy. Yeah. I want to champion you, dude. But, and you are, again, has nothing to do with how he is as an actor. But him is a person? Oh, my, yeah, yeah, blah. Yeah, just good Lord. Yeah.

I'm so annoyed by him. I kind of just want to, like, it's not that I want to, I feel like he's like a pop, like, you know, the weasel machines. that keep popping up. Oh, yeah. No, for sure. Not that I want to hit him with a hammer. I'm just saying I like those machines.

And sometimes you just pops up. Yeah. And you kind of want to get rid of them. Yeah. But not permanently. Now I'm just getting myself into a hole. I just like the game. I like them when you hit the weasles back in the hole.

Okay. We're almost out of time. Should we talk about traitors? Oh, my God. Yes. We need to talk about traitors. Man, Snake Man's goose is getting cooked. That's all I have to say.

Oh. You think he's going down? Well, I was hoping he was in this episode. This is, again, we were talking about the episode from last week. This is your traitors from last week. Spoiler alert. I really thought that they were going to finally catch a scent in this episode. They were so close.

And then what did they do but turn on an innocent woman? Wow, did they? Oh, did they? I've been championing Tara Lipinski and Johnny Weir for one to two. two weeks now. But Tara Lipinski, you know, talk about a rat, a snake boy. That was a, that was a weasily thing you did. You totally talked with Natalie about uniting against Rob. And then you got all chicken shit right before and you made her go first. And then when it didn't go well for her, you absolutely left her out to dry.

Dry. Left her alone. Alone. And that was not cool, Tara Lipinski. Not a girl's girl. She's a Johnny girl. She's a Johnny's girl, you know. She's only a Johnny's girl. That's right. That's right. She is not a girl's girl. She's not a traitor's girl.

She's got eyes for one person and that's Johnny. That's Johnny Weir. And it was, you know, I appreciated that they were trying some form of tactic. And I do love watching it work against them. But then I feel like all of them are kind of like, eh. I feel like this last episode, they're like, the two of them, you think the two of them could pull us off? Like, I feel like watching the two of them interact with each other. do feel like everyone collectively was like,

yeah, they're probably not doing the shit. So we're going to keep on going. Yeah, they were like, they had their big moment last week where they're like, we're best friends. We're best friends. And nobody cares. Nobody cares. Nobody cares.

Although I do. So they're a unit. Again, I do love the whole sentiment of them both being like, we were Olympians. We don't know how to play games. We weren't children. Yeah. We didn't have a childhood. Yeah.

They're just, we did learn from a listener recently that trauma bonded does not mean what I think it means, but they are bonded through trauma. Trauma bonded means like Stockholm syndrome. Johnny and Tara are just bonded together through the horrific trauma of being famous children and athletes. Yeah. Yep.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so their bond is strong. And everyone else is having a mental breakdown. And I'm really like, you guys, I just don't understand how the extent to which everyone is having a mental breakdown on traitors. I'm like, you guys, this is a silly show. Look at Alan Cummings. Okay, but if you think about it, think about being on, because I have sadly read too much into the shooting of traitors.

If you think about it, they are all brought to set, because they don't stay at the castle, they're all brought to set every day separately. Yeah. In separate cars. Right. They are not allowed to speak to each other when they're not there. Yeah. And on camera. Yeah.

And think of how isolated. it's got a feel. And then you're looking at all these people. And also because you already, you know, we talk about showmances. You talk about like when you're on a set with people. So you already have this whole community. It's that summer camp intensity.

But it is the summer camp intensity. But also, even though it is a game, there are people that are coming after you. Wouldn't you? That's why I could never, I would never sign up to be in the traders. I don't think I can handle it. I don't think I could be like,

I think I would, be kicked off almost immediately. I don't think I can handle the pressure. No, that's totally fair. I would be crying immediately. And I mean, yeah, it's not, I think what I like about a show like the traitors is that it's a reality that I feel like I can enjoy more, like, I can't enjoy more, like, I can't enjoy Love is Blind anymore, especially like watching America's Next Top Mile documentary. I'm just like, reality is so exploitative. Like, and this way, I like real housewives because I'm like, these, these bitches are doing it to themselves. Also, real quick, man, shout outs to Mary Cosby, Real Housewives of Esels.

see. Her son was 24 years old. Yeah, and like an ongoing struggle with substance use. With substance use. And I haven't looked into what happened, but all I saw were the headlines that he has passed. And I just, God, that's got it. Oh, my God. I know. And she's, you know, she's a real character. But she has been very, I think, you know, she's been very open about the struggle with her son and what to do. Yeah. And like talking about her unconditional love for him. and, you know, even through his struggle. And I know I really feel for her. But yeah, there's certain reality where you can just be like, this is fine.

This isn't deeply exploitative. And that's what I like about the traders. It's like many of these people are famous. Some of them are just famous because they've done a reality show before. But like, and it's the stakes feel low enough. Nobody's being berated on their body size. Right. Nobody's getting married, you know.

And so it feels like a low stakes romp, which is why I'm like, why is everybody having a mental breakdown? But you're right. You're isolated. You have no perspective. And everyone is like attacking your personality. And maybe that is bad. Yeah. And you have to like gear up every day to go in and like fight for, you know, that's so I, I would be so be legal. Like my chest would hurt all the time. And I'm just so not conniving in any way. Yeah. Yeah. And there's a lot. I wish I could be. I just want to be a snake in the grass. I want to be the rob snake in the grass. And even that when the betrayal is like kind of pretend betrayal, it's like their whole thing is that they, it's like this is all a game and it's all pretend betrayal. But now this is the only life we're living. So now it feels like real betrayal. And also what I keep seeing.

And I think that's what's happening. About the reunion that was just, it was I think done not that long ago because the reunion is going to come right out after the final episode. And word on the street is Colton walked out. So. Colton's goose got cooked in a different way, you know. I hope it's somebody going, like, putting him to task. I hope so, too. But I don't, I think that, though, I imagine he probably, there are conditions of which no one

is allowed to talk about any of it during the reunion, I imagine. I'm sure. Just like they weren't allowed to talk about it during the show. So one tidbit that came out from America's next top model, which I'm guessing is probably the model for many reality shows, is that after you get kicked off, you don't get to go home. they take you to a hotel so that you don't break any confidentiality. And also, they don't have a phone. They can't communicate with anyone so that they don't break any confidentiality.

So you've just been like publicly humiliated and then you're put into like an isolation chamber. Bad idea. Bad combo. At least Love Island has learned from that is that they give them the psychiatric hold when they get the phone back. That's when they need the phone back. When they get the phone back, then you need to be watched. We love an industry that requires a 48-hour team of psychiatrists to help you re-enter society after participating in it. Because this is the thing, MJ, you were talking about people watching America's Next Top Model.

But am I any better? I watch all this shit. I know. I'm a piece of garbage, too. I watch, I mean, I'm not watching, like, overtly, like, racist or, you know, bad. Like, I'm not, but, you know, Milf Manor is nightmare. That is a nightmare experience. I don't think that it's very important to make distinctions between, I don't think it's like, I guess you could say it's complicit, being complicit in watching something. But I'm talking, I think that in almost everything, my criticism is almost never directed at regular people who don't have agency.

It's always directed to the producers. Yeah. And so if you enjoy America's Next Top Model, that's whatever. I have no problem with that. Again, I've enjoyed watching Love is Blind. Well, I know they are actively. ruining people's lives. Although again, I really couldn't bring myself to watch this season. What I've been seeing coming out of this recent season and people have been asking me if I'm watching it. I'm like, I don't think I can't. I just can't do it. I think I have hit the point where I just can't enjoy it anymore. Yeah, it's just so upsetting and it's just like that interaction of the guy, I don't know if it was like day two or day three and he's talking to this woman who is a

I want to say not even mid-size, and he's just like, I just really thought you were going to look like you did Pilates or something. Like, I thought you were going to. And he just was like talking about like, you know, I thought you, and obviously just saying, I'm not attracted to you. And all of it and just like, let. And I just, I was like, I can't watch that. I am so filled with the fury of a thousand sons.

are we all are right now. I can't. And then there's times, though, that I want the America's Next Top Model docuseries because I want to be enraged even further. So I also get, if you're still watching Love is Blind, because you're like, I need to put it somewhere and scream at that television. Totally.

It is a way to get it out of your system. A large project of 26 is to figure out where to put your anger and what to do with it. And yes, sometimes I put it at the regular, people on the ground, but I try to reserve it for the people with the bunny and the power. And certainly that is who is the piece. Who's the bitch when it comes to America's next top model? Tyra Banks.

Tyra Banks. And the producers. The producers. And Mr. and Mrs. Jay may be a little bit as well. I mean, Tyra's still not apologizing. Like if there was like a, if the cornerstone of this documentary had been, I'm so sorry. none of this should have ever had. So if she had any of that,

I feel like all of it, I mean, obviously it's still an explosive docu-series, I feel like if she had taken any accountability, really, the conversation would be different. That's the thing. It's just a different conversation. Like, an apology. You can learn and grow.

We can learn, even though, again, we all should have known that. It was very, very bad then. But we can give her the opportunity to grow, but she hasn't, and she's not going to. Totally. I don't think. And, yeah, I think.

It's just a big part. The whole kind of like a big tenet of restorative justice is to just acknowledge the harm. Like you cannot move forward after a harm until the harm is acknowledged, right? And I think this is also like going back to the BAFTA thing. It's like I think maybe Alan Cumming was trying to acknowledge the harm on stage. But I think that like a lot, like a lot, a harm was done, right? A harm was, even if it wasn't intentional, the person with threats didn't mean to do a harm. But also it is still harmful for black actors to hear racial stuff.

on stage. The harm is done. Now we acknowledge the harm. And then we figure out how to fix it, right? And I just feel like what Tyra is missing is acknowledging the harm. She's just trying to blame everybody else. And so, yeah, it would just be a different conversation. But I do recommend watching it with like every trigger warning known to man.

Like just make a list of all the things that could ever upset you and then, you know, take a couple deep breaths and do whatever you need to do and then watch it. Yeah. Or you can pick up. a monster fucker book and just, you know, really escape reality in a different kind of way. Totally. Or you could direct your anger towards, you know, something constructive, helpful mutual aid, all of that.

Oh, yeah. No, no, no. Oh, yeah. How you figure out how to do that. Oh, yeah. And then you know, at the television. For a little bit of escape. And then we do, you know, it's all, we, it's ebbs and flows of how we have to navigate our rage, guys.

Rage is an act of resistance. That's true. Yeah. That's true. I mean, it is. Yeah. But also thank you everybody for joining us on this week's episode of second helpings. I've had an absolute blast kind of for a second forgot what show that I was doing.

But I did want to say, again, our Monsters Against I show 100% of the donations did go towards Churla, which is an L.A. organization that we have been working with. The Coalition for Humane Immigant Rights, and that is where we have been putting our money up from the show. We were able to sell a bunch of LPN merch and donate money. All of the proceeds went to Churla and we're just trying to do, you know, there's little things. I didn't know what to do. So I put it on a show. Yeah.

And I was like, well, that's something I can do. And that's something, a way that I can do something. So there are ways in which we can show up and just remember, even if it's just showing up for your community, showing up for your neighbors, showing up for each other. I love you guys. We just got to be keep being good to ourselves. keep being good to other people and have a wonderful rest of your week. Puppet up.

And don't forget, pop it up. Pupp it up. I guess let's sing the song, MJ. Oh, wait, do we need to plug page 7 at Patreon? Email, all of that. Let's sing the song. All that. Okay. Finally better.

Second time around. Oh. Oh, does Gideon want to talk about 97 Kings since I just saw him walk past? We're ending this show. This show is made possible by listeners like you. Thanks to our ad sponsors. You can support our shows by supporting them. For more shows like the one you just listened to, go to lastpodcastnetwork.com.