Page 7 - Vow Renewal - REEEEEEWIIIIIND 2002

Episode Date: May 8, 2025

The networks on vacay, so that means it's time to grab your studded belt, oversized shorts, and sweatbands to dive into the post-911 world of the very serious and grown up teenage versions of Jackie and MJ, in 2002!Want even more Page 7? Support us on Patreon! Patreon.com/Page7Podcast  Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes of Page 7 ad-free.Start a free trial now on Apple Podcasts or by visiting siriusxm.com/podcastsplus. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Never made it as a wise man I couldn't cut it as a poor man stealing That's what you're just I live in like a blind male I'm sick as I don't have a sense of feeling And this is how you

Remind me Do you want me to sing the old song? No. This is how You remind me Of what I really gave Is I like you to say Sorry was with A different story

I love the album Really? Confession, loved the album when it came out. I don't know if I've listened to it in 20 years, but I did love the album. And I'm sorry, everyone's going to be listening to a nickel back today, or they're going to be listened to, in the end, it doesn't even matter. If you tried so hard, if you fought so hard. Why, you gotta go and make things so complicated.

I hadn't see the way. Man, I just rewatched that music video the other day because it was playing at my Salon. And man, we were really wearing socks on our arms, but this is just just the tip of the iceberg. Because the status will not be concerned with me. If you're listening, whoa, oh, oh, whoa. We are here talking about the year 2002. 2,00. Rewind. It's a rewind. It's getting hot in here. Oh, take off all your clothes I was gonna sing Vanessa Carleton next.

If I could fall into the sky When you think time would pass a spy Because you know I'd walk a thousand miles If I could just see you tonight Am I pretending to play the keyboard while I sing it? Yes. Ooh, ooh, it just takes some time. Little girl, you're in the middle of the ride.

Everything every thing is fine. Everything will be all right. I will never forget when I sang Jimmy Eat World in the middle at the karaoke party that happened at that Greenpoint stand-up show after there was like a Friday night. What was it called? Bro. At the pencil factory? Yes.

Well, yes, dude. Yes. And then we would all go. I think it was Nick Turner's show. Yes. And I think we would all go do karaoke afterwards. And we would just sing until three o'clock in the morning. And that's where Henry and I debuted us doing the meatloaf song.

Paradise by the Dashboard Light. Paradise by the Dashboard Light. Only time I've seen it successful. Greatest, I'll never forget that specific karaoke experience. Wow, MJ, you just unlocked. Uh-oh, guys, this is just the beginning. We are unlocking memories. right now. For unlocked memory. But Marcus was very mad at me for singing the middle because that was real. Well, because he's a judgey puss. That's why. He is a judgy puss. He's our favorite judgey puss. But he really is, man. He was like, this song sucks. So I was like, no, it doesn't. Is specifically in that room. Man, we did do karaoke there a lot. I remember Marcus always killing with ground control to Major Tom. And we're all just like, yeah, Marcus. Get on that, Marcus.

Yes, yeah, he would do a lot of Bowie. He did a lot of Bowie. Objectively better music than Jimmy U. World, okay, but sometimes the best karaoke songs are not the best songs in general. MJ, you want to pick a song that everybody's going to sing and you know what everybody's going to sing, that fucking song. Exactly, exactly.

Everyone was happy except him. But we're not talking about the year or whatever that show was happening, which I think was probably 2010. We're talking about 2,000. 2002, baby. Let's see. How old were we? Yeah, let's give me, yeah, let's give us snapshots in time, y'all.

Because I said this right before we started recording to MJ, every time we do these rewinds. And I'm like, oh, all right, 2002. What the hell happened to me in 2002? And then I start looking through all this stuff from 2002. And I was like, oh, oh, I remember 2002. And I feel that you guys might go through the same experience. So share with us over on the Patreon. on what you did in 2002 under this episode

because I'd love to hear your stories as well. I can't believe we haven't done this yet one yet. I know. Neither of us thinks we've done it because I was 16. Yeah. Which is peak, peak teenager. Oh, it's peak. I was 15, turn in 15 this year.

And I did say to MJ earlier, this is the year. I'll never, I can't believe I forgot this year that I grew up. This was the year and had nothing to do with virginity. This is nothing. I'm not talking about any of those milestones in life. I am talking about, I remember being like, I don't watch the little kid things anymore. Right. I understand.

And what ignited this memory in me was not to already jump to a beautiful mind, a beautiful mind that won the Oscar for the best film this year. Well, because I remember seeing beautiful mind and just being like, I get it. there's a twist. And to me, that was like, I was like, I get this, I get this adult movie. Yeah. Even though we were never stopped from watching any movies. Like, if you've listened to Rewinds in the past, you know, Henry and I really, our babysitter was television.

We were those quintessential 90s kids. So, like, we watched anything under the sun, but specifically beautiful mind. I was just like, that's it. Look at me now. Wow. I can't believe. I mean, you may as well call me Mistress Jackie from now on because I'm such an adult. That is so funny. That is such a 15-year-old way to be very grown up. And it makes sense because then I saw that Lilo and Stitch was released this year because everybody in our chat, which, hello chat. Love you guys. Everyone in our chat and Jackin was so excited because of the live action Lilo and Stitch that's dropping soon.

And I was like, honestly, I'm going to be real with y'all. Never seen it. Same. I completely missed it. And I know now it's because I chose not to because I didn't watch those kind of movies. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

So I was 16. I think this was my sophomore year. And I was also, I was like, why is 2002 kind of like a blank in my mind? And it is because this is, I was a sophomore, which means it was like the first year after my brother had moved out and gone to college. he started, I guess his first year was in, is that right? This is my sophomore to junior. So it wasn't right away.

He was, I remember that in 2001, he started college in 2001. Oh, this is my first year without my brother too. Oh, yeah. That's what it is. Oh, my God. Bing, Bing, sorry, didn't mean to have a therapy moment. That's what it was. And that was both of us very struggled with.

Yes. Both of us really struggled with that transition. But mind you, John's older than Henry. So this must have been my second year without John. but those were a bit of the lost years for me. Same and, you know, I, I had a good time in high school, but I was, I really lost a one to two years of being lonely and upset. But you're older than me, so that would also make sense.

Right. And so, so I would have been driving around. I got to figure out what was like the not pop music at the time. Like what, I mean, I wasn't listening to the radio, mind you. I had tapes, but at this. Were you a link? But you weren't a Lincoln Parkist. I was not a Lincoln Parkist.

I was probably listening to a lot of like Goldfinger at this time. This was also like this was the emergence of bands like Sum 41 and like they pop punk stuff. Obviously Ever Levine. And I was of course talk about a judgy pus. You know, I was like, sub 41 is not real punk. You know, I was like I was one of those. I was one of those. I'm not proud, but I was.

But yeah, there was, you know, so I think a lot, this is going to be an interesting one because this. This is a year for me in terms of pop culture because this was a year for me where I was very much trying to define myself as like counterculture still. Ooh, that's so much more fun though because then you saw it from such a different angle, you know? Yeah. Yeah. But so what do we what do we? How could we go at this? We could talk categorically like movies and music.

I'm just looking at this. I did watch a lot of movies at this time and I'm looking at the pianist. Yes. Gum throwing, Adrian Brody. How I loved that movie. I loved the pianist. But that's, again, I was like, I think this was an era, unfortunately, where I was taken myself pretty seriously.

Red Dragon, great movie. Oh, my God, yes. And that was another, because I remember reading it and just being like, oh, I'm so distinguished. Yes, yes, yes. I'm not like the other girls. No. real. This was for probably Jackie and me both. This was a real not like the other girls kind of year.

I'm going to go ahead and apologize to y'all now because, man, talk about torquing up. I hate to say how horny this year was for me. And I'm not talking about IRL. Don't worry. You're not going to hear about minors kiss and minors. And I'm not talking about under the ground. I'm talking about Lord of the Rings, the two towers, everyone. Definitely. Entering the chat. This was. I mean, the first one obviously blew my mind, but talk about the thirst. The thirst was real for me going to see Lord of the Rings. This is peak cut out legless years. Peak huge poster of Aragorn over my bed. This was like my everything.

Yeah. And I was different than the other girls because I had read them. And nobody knew what I had gone through. Yeah, yeah. No, you were. I knew them all. Yes. So this, I'm sorry, this was a real overdramatic year for me, y'all.

Yes, this is, I don't think that Jackie and I realized this, that for both of us, this was a year where we took ourselves very seriously. Yes. It was just that, that, for us, it was just that time in teenhood in high school where you haven't yet become like kind of jaded or whatever. You're still, you still have the passion of a very youthful person and you're trying to figure out who you are. And, you know, worth pointing out that the country was in a pretty weird place at the time. Obviously, 9-11 had happened just a few months earlier. The Iraq war had not yet started. But this was a, you know, George W. Bush was president. This was a very intense time. I also remember getting into extreme. vehement political arguments with my friends, you know, or maybe not nice. Oh, certainly. This was definitely, especially, man, the D.A.R. was loud and proud at my high school. And baby, you want to watch me go, especially as a person, like, I hung out with all the stoners, but like I hung out with all the smart stoners. And we would just go head to head. But we would go head to head the

lamest way how like in class. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In like debate kind of shit.

And we were just like, dude, same. Right? Oh my God. I just started screaming at each other. Yes. Yes. And that was I did, you know, there was some some close friends who I loved, but who we had political disagreements about.

And you know, mind you, this was 2002. But remember, the 2000 election went on for a while. And there was the, the angry feelings about the 2000 election were not over by 2002, right? No, I had my, a good friend of mine had her own George W. Bush fan club. Oh, my God. Yes, you were in Florida at this time. Oh, I was in Florida at this time.

Ooh. Ooh. Yeah. But yes, in class, there was a couple of proud, proud young Republicans in, in, you know, the honors classes. And man, we would yell at each other. And they would insult me. And I would get upset.

And I would try to insult them back. And I think probably, unfortunately, I think I had the moral high ground, but I don't think I had the like rhetorical one because I'll bet those guys all became lawyers, you know, because they were really, they were combative. They were combative and ruthless. Yeah. And so that, even though that isn't really how I remember this year in terms of culture, it's just worth setting the scene that, you know, as much as like obviously right now in 2025, we're living in some real weird times. and they're weirder and different now than they were then because of course this was pre-social media but it's just interesting to remember that yeah in this time in 2002 boy people were really upset with each other yeah really really really upset with each other and it was like I guess we should probably just say

neither of us Arab American or Muslim but I know this was probably one of the worst years to be an Arab American or a Muslim person. We're not even really going to touch on that since that's not our experience. But it was a bad time in our country for, you know, xenophobia, Islamophobia, all that stuff, too. Well, also at the age of 15 and 16, where we were in the world of technology, I felt so alone. Yes. 9-11 had just happened. A lot of my family had been affected.

I was missing New York because, like, I still like want, I still hated Florida. I hated Florida the second I moved to Florida and I hated it until I left. Do you know what year you moved to Florida? We moved to Florida in 1999. Okay. All right. So you had only been in Florida for a few years. Yeah, man, that's a rough to leave New York, go to Florida in time for the 2000 election and 9-11.

Yeah. And the political polarization that was subsequent for 2011. And I was surrounded, especially growing up in Queens. And then I was surrounded by a bunch of. you know, well off white people. And I didn't under, I was just like in how they all thought. And I was just like, I remember like create, like knowing that like I guess counterculture in my brain to what I was against. Like up against in Florida.

Right. That I would want to buck against all of it. That I just wanted to burn it all to the ground. Not knowing exactly what you believe, but definitely knowing what you don't believe. Yes. And definitely was sent to anger management for the first time. this year. So it does make a lot of sense. Guys, we're really talking through. I'm really having a lot more therapy during this than I expected to have. Rewat's always turned into a bit of a therapy

session. A bit of therapy. That's fine. We haven't, no, it's weird to spend an hour looking back at a whole year that you remember well, you know? Yeah, because it is like, I posit the question to people listening to this, have you done this? Like, I do want you to think, what were you doing in 2002? Because it is interesting. Like, I'm seeing this, that I forget that Averell Levine really was pushed as the anti-Britney. Yeah. That she, everybody was saying, like, oh, she's the anti-Britney because, and we just read the Britney Spears memoir. This was such a huge time period for Britney Spears. This was the release of Crossroads and her breakup with Justin Timberley. So she's like technically at the top. But what we know about her because we just read her

memoir is that this is the top of the roller coaster right before, you know, there's a really, really, really intense steep drop. Yeah. Yeah. And at the time, of course, because we were not like the other girls, probably neither you or I was really big into Brittany at the time. Not at this point. No. And not anymore. Not at this point. This is when I really started to push against and started getting into, I mean, I can admit it to you guys here that I thought that nickel, nickel back as not being in sync or like Britney Spears or, like, I had like, I think the year before gone to see in sync, like this was

like huge for me to be listening to like harder music. But then this, of course, got me into new metal. Now, that is, this is the real beginning of new metal. You said that with gravitas, as if we're going to a little segment on. There is, there is, this is, you know, like in Park, this is really, like I said, I started listening to everything's so blurry. No one knows what's real. The Puddle of Mud song Blurry, which I don't think I've listened to since 2002. and I just got rocket shipped back in time.

In every conflict, there's at least one bitch. A huge bitch, a silly bitch. A little baby bitch, a raggedy bitch. But sometimes it's unclear who the bitch is. I'm Kara Klank. And I'm Jackie Zabrowski. And on our new Colin Advice podcast, we're going to help you figure out who's the bitch.

We want to hear your problems, dilemmas, and quandaries. No topic is off limits. Does your coworker flirt with the boss to get ahead? Is your bestie having her destination wedding on a holiday weekend? Is your therapist being clingy? Does your friend keep bringing her toddler to adult parties? Come on, there's definitely a bitch in your life, and we want to hear about it. You can email us, DM us, leave us a voicemail, and even call in live to talk to us in person about the alleged bitch in your life.

Just go to who's the bitch.com for all the ways you can contact us. New episodes drop every Wednesday starting in October on The Last Podcast Network. So subscribe now on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen. And tune in to our live stream kickoff on September 30th on the Last Podcast Network Twitch channel where we'll be taking your calls live on air. Help us help you figure out who's the bitch. Yes. Yeah. And this was because there was a time, I think, yeah, this is so interesting because this was right.

It was pre-social media. We were all, but we, you know, we all had internet at home at this point. We had our family desktop computers and whatnot. But this was also still a time when most of pop culture discourse was shaped by like magazine covers and tablets and stuff. And so, you know, this was, which was obviously a huge part of what was going on for Brittany this year. But even like, you know, people's sexiest man alive this year was Ben Affleck. How do you feel about that? I saw that and I thought of you, MJ.

That of me. Oh, because I'm having a little moment with him. Cicrical. Also, look great then. Looks great now. He hasn't aged. I'm sorry. He has not aged.

Wow. And if you don't agree with me that he's a little bit sexy, listen to him speak Spanish. Thank you. Who was it? Somebody sent us an email. Somebody sent us that. And I went, motto.

Yes. Of Ben Affleck speaking Spanish. And again, when I praise him on Bill, Mario, I have to understand I am not praising Bill Maher, I'm praising Ben Affleck for, again, talking about, you know, Islamophobia and stuff. At the time, like, early on in the, in the early 2000s, Ben Affleck was still, like, a really smart. And, I mean, before a lot of other people were saying critical things about the administration and stuff. Ben Affleck has actually always, like, kind of been there. Although, I don't know if he was doing it in 2002, but certainly, like, during the Iraq war and stuff, he was very outspoken.

But, yeah, like, even looking, there's also on this BuzzFeed list, there's a James J.T. Rolling Stone cover. Like JT. was at the top, the top, top, top, top at this time. You know, the Christina Aguilera. Oh, we're dirty. This is because also this is when, and not to go back to Britney Spears, but it does make me think about Britney Spears. We're going to spend a lot of time with her today. She's looking at Christina Aguilera dropped dirty, which I don't know if you guys remember when she dropped it, but even though it was when I was moving away. from the mainstream pop music. I remember definitely clocking Christina Agilera being like, bongo, boingo for me.

And also remembering specifically what kind of a shape of person could wear that low cut of jean and still exist in the world. And that's really where it really truly began for me of looking at it. It was like, oh, I'm just not shaped like a lot of people. people are shaped, or at least like Christina Aguilera is shaped. I can imagine that this must have been a uniquely difficult time for, I mean, I think it was a hard time for probably all girls. But yes, this was very, very... When we only had fashion bug, you're talking about us fat girls?

Fat girls only had fashion bug. We had fashion bug sometimes a Sears or a J.C. Penny sometimes. Deb? Did Deb? Did Deb have a plus size section? Remember Deb? Oh, I don't remember Deb. No, I didn't have a. Debb. No, what's Deb? It was like where you got your prom dresses at the Dubuque Mall. Oh, wow. I imagine that for the plus-size girls in this era, it was very hard because I was not a plus-size girl and I still spent basically every day of 2002 looking at the stomachs of the Jennifer Love Hewitts, the Britney Spears, the Christine Anguileras, and being like, something's horribly wrong with me. That's the thing. Because really, honestly, as much as at the time I thought the woe was me was only because I was fat. And I was just like, because I'm fat and I hate my.

You know, there was so much more of that. But you're so right that really for anyone identifying as a woman trying to buy clothing was a nightmare. And you see some of the things coming back. and I shudder to think. I know I understand fashion trends are all cyclical. I know. But like, please don't take away all the high-waisted pants. Can I beg fashion?

Can I beg all of fashion? Please. I got a big, I don't even have a big butt. I just am big on the bottom. Can you please? But listen, even if you're not big on the bottom, if you're big in the middle, that's not good either. I know. I know.

I don't think fits. The low-rise jeans era. And yeah, Jessica Simpson was a real. It was also a low-rise icon. How did the pants stay up? I know. They weren't holding on to anything. And they would call them hip-huggers, but I swear they weren't even hugging the hips.

Nobody had any hips to hug. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. So I'm thinking about how this is, I think about my fashion choices in 2002. And I have a very specific memory of going to see Spider-Man in the theaters.

because this is the year. And they say that a hero can save us. Not going to stand here and wait. Which was the Nickelback Spider-Man song that they did a music video together. And then there was the Toby McGuire Spider-Man. And sorry, MJ didn't mean to take over. You're talking about this. But talk about a J-O movie for me.

Please continue. It's a real year from Bickleback. For me and Nickelback. Well, I mean, talk about. about a sexual awakening. Spider-Man, such a good movie, first of all. It holds up. And my husband who was not, he was not a horny teenage girl at the time. But he also loves this movie. It is something that we have bonded over. He, but also he's a bit of a Spider-Man freak. He loves all the Spider-Man movies, all of them. Oh, I know. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, he's one of those.

He's one of those. Spider-Man Apologists. He loves all of them. He thinks the Andrew Garfield ones are great. He thinks the Toby McGuire ones are great. He thinks the Tom Holland ones are great. He loves them all. That's wonderful. But I remember seeing this movie in the theaters and mind you, this was in the golden days before we knew that James Franco was a creepest. And so it was so hot to see James Franco and Toby McGuire, right? And they don't kiss.

Oh, you're begging them to kiss. And oh, they're not kissing. I wish they did, but they don't. But I remember, like, I don't, this is to talk about unlocking memory. I just remember seeing in the theater and I'm remembering now what I was wearing. And at the time, I was wearing very baggy jeans. Genco era, it was over, but I still, I, due to a combination of various body image stuff and also deeply, deeply rooted gender dysphoria. I did not wear tight pants at the time.

So I wore baggy jeans. And do you remember Gadzooks? Did you have a Gatsukes at Earball? Oh, yeah. I loved Gats. I would dare say M. Jay, this might be the one time in our lives that we may have dressed exactly the same. Because Gadsukes, this was the time that you could get a lot of, like, graphic tea.

I think it was like the emergence of the graphic tea and the character tea. Oh, yeah. So I had like a Superman tea. I had like a Mighty Mouse tea. Were they baby teas or were they big graphic teas? I had both. Okay. Depending on how much I was trying to fit.

in on any given day. I had the baby tease. But then I remember for some reason I had a Spider-Man shirt that was like a ringer shirt, not a flattering cut. And it was just a big men's Spider-Man shirt that was like my favorite shirt to quote. It would be this me only shirt, as Scender would say on Buffy. I wore it all the time and I wore it to, I wore my Spider-Man shirt to the Spider-Man movie.

Whoa, not supposed to do it. A memory that is making me die on the inside right now. Yes. I just feel like. Would that I could feel that level of excitement for something again. Oh my God, please. It's just the idea of sleeves in general in this time period. I want to say in all time periods, sleeves in general, like short sleeves are just

a nightmare for so many people because they also don't. You think something's wrong with your body somehow, no matter what. Because even the baby tease, like the cap sleeve would roll up. my arm fat and then tuck underneath the arm fat so it would make the arm fat look even and I was just like how are even the t-shirts not made for me like I would just cry and cry and cry and then I remember specifically I found at I think Costco or like a BJ's they made these long stretchy plaid shorts that came down huge baggy carpenter bagged shards like uh below my knees shorts. Oh yeah. I only wore shorts that went below my knees. Oh yes. And had the carpenter

pockets on them and I would wear those shorts like huge and cinch to me. So I would buy them as big as I could get them. And then specifically I had this one Twinkie shirt. Yeah. It was a huge button up twinkie shirt that had Twinkies all over it. Very much a Gadsukes shirt. You got that at Gadsukes. I'm pretty sure I got it at a Gadsukes. And I wore the like, that specific didn't match. Yeah. And I didn't give a fuck. And this is also when I really started sewing buttons onto everything because, wow,

nothing screams counterculture more, MJ, than sewing buttons onto things that don't necessarily need buttons on them. Yeah, yeah. God, you even just say carpenter jeans were, but remember all the pants had hammer loops on them? All of them. Well, that is back. And I have purchased a couple of pairs of. pants with some pockets on the side. But here's the thing. I use the pockets now. Oh, yeah. No, I want,

I want the cargo pocket to come back. But there was specifically a hammer loop. There was a style of jeans called carpenter jeans that I didn't remember until you said that word with a hammer loop. Oh, yeah. What are we doing with the hammer loop? Is you to hang a hammer from it? I think everybody should be carrying hammers. Are you not on the pro hammer gambit that's going around now? In 2025, we probably all should be carrying a hammer. Yeah. Maybe we need hammers. Get rid of the guns. springing the hammers. Yeah, yeah. That's when you really mean it.

You know, if you hit somebody with a hammer, that's like, you really want to hit that person, you know what I mean? But you're right. We had our, the mainstream icon of female, you know, quote unquote counterculture. And it wasn't counterculture because it was still all in the pop top of the charts. But Avril. Very much so. Avril was what we were offered.

The two, you could be a British. or you could be an afferl, right? And so the stoner girls and the girls who weren't like the other girls, if they had not discovered what I thought, again, was actual counterculture, which was more, and it wasn't even that countercultural. But like at this time, I was listening to Operation Ivy, Goldfinger, Green Day, that kind of thing.

Oh, yeah. I had some green day in there. It was a great era for Green Day, you know. Oh, yeah. But then it was like also the kind of the popification of that, which was already, Goldfinger was obviously, I would call Goldfinger and Green Day pop punk, but then it got poppier with Avril and some 41 and Good Charlotte and that in this era.

Dude, I wasn't listening to any of those actual, like, I guess technically as close to counterculture as you could get for us at this time period. Right. I wasn't listening to any of those things. And I was, because I was too bad for it. Yeah. I was, you know, really live in my bad girl era. Yeah.

So I guess me and X-Tina, I meant to continue that conversation earlier when I brought up Brittany and then I started talking about Christina and then I went on to something else. But that like she was being so insanely slut shamed in public. And like the fact that Justin Timberlake openly says that they had had sex, which of course they had. And Britney Spears never was trying to put on the virgin attitude that's. not what she was trying to portray. So then Christina drops dirty and not the, I mean, you know, I'll never slut shame a person, but just drastically different and much more open and much more vulnerable in a lot of ways.

And she doesn't get ripped apart in the same way because she was never quite put on the same virginal pedestal that Britney Spears was always put on. Right, right. Yeah, that's interesting because I think, right, I think Christina Aguilera, I wonder, and please correct me if I'm speaking out of turn here because I really, again, I wasn't really following this very closely at the time. No, me neither. It seems like Christina was kind of like, quote unquote, allowed to be a slut, like,

was kind of marketed and presented as a slut, which, which, and I say, slut lovingly. Yes, no, but she was, like, she was packaged as the dirty side of Britney Spears. I mean, I think this was really trying to essentially really hammer home how different they are when in reality they're just too talented people making music. And now we try not to pit everyone against each other that way. Right. And Brittany's whole thing, which she speaks extensively about in her memoir, was that she was, she was being marketed as both.

both marketed to 10-year-old girls and marketed to adult men as a sex object. And that was like a very intentional dual, you know, dual campaign of this is how you're supposed to consume this girl. Oops, I did it again. And baby one more time are like, you know, she's dressed as a schoolgirl so that girls can identify with her and so that men can, you know, fetishize her. But she was literally so young at the time that that really was not on her radar. And at this, in 2002, which is when her and JT. break up also, but she's just thinking like, why is everyone so mad at me? Why is everyone so mad that I'm like living with my boyfriend at this point? Because she is a young adult. And she's like, I don't want to be a role model for 10 year olds in every aspect of my life. You know, and so poor, yeah, Brittany is just like, this was peak, again, talking about the

headlines, you know, the magazine covers and stuff. This was like peak slut shaming era for Brittany. Like this is everything Brittany does is under a microscope. And, you know, as her and Justin breakup, she, her entire sense of self-worth and direction and stability and meaning is completely destabilized. And also so many like the Averill's being pitted against her. Just everything is against her and talk about feeling lonely. Yeah, man. It's so, I talk about this all this.

time how when we watch reality now, there is such a careful strategy with women to not go after each other because there has been this cultural shift of like understanding that women going after each other is usually not for the benefit of women and often for the benefit of men. And so there's been a general consensus that it's better for women to support each other and to identify, you know, if like on a perfect match or on a love is, blind even, even though the women are literally competing for the same men, when they fight now in the 2020s, they'll be very careful to be like, I'm not mad at you. He should have been more on it. Like, it's, and I'm glad, I'm glad for that cultural shift. But sometimes it's kind of funny

on a reality show. Sometimes it's kind of, yeah. And also, like, you're laughing at that in general just like, you know, on like a reality show or something like that, you know. And sometimes like women can still be bitches, you know, like, but I'm glad that the thrust of the idea is like, let's not just have women hate each other. Let's identify. if there is an external thing trying to make women hate each other for the benefit of men or whatever. But all of that is to say that in 2002, we were supposed to hate all the women. The women were supposed to hate each other. We were supposed to hate ourselves.

Oh, certainly. Most importantly hate ourselves. Oh, certainly. Biggest goal is to hate yourself. I have to. Biggest goal is to compare all the women because they're, because they can't all be good. In fact, they must all be bad. You know, like it was a really, really, it was a time.

that there was, I'm going to say, zero percent mainstream feminist ideas in the pop culture discourse. Like maybe girl power, right? Because we're post-spice girls. Not even, yeah, that's years ago at this point. I think girl power, yeah, it is long gone. I feel like nobody's thinking about girl power right now. There's the Anna Nicole show.

There's the, like, I just feel like, you know, in the end of Nicole show, obviously, you should talk about a woman who was done dirty by. by society, but the way that that show was consumed was just like, look at this dumb slut. Piece of trash. Ha, ha. Look at this piece of trash. This is the waters in which we were swimming as we came of age, Jackie. Yeah.

No wonder we all have a difficult fucking time. It was like, no wonder we're not just sitting here thinking about to that. Yeah. Maybe I take back what I said earlier. Maybe don't do this with your day. Maybe don't start thinking about where you were in 2002. You know what I do want to remind myself of was watching Alicia Keys perform the song Fallen on the Grammys. And that song destroyed me.

I remember specifically just being like, oh, I love her. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, that was awesome. But I also had to like keep it on the inside because I felt like, I couldn't like that. You know, it's like this was also a real big awakening of you should be ashamed of what you like. Yes. And you should hide all of it.

And really, even if you do like it, even though there was no reason to hide enjoying fallen, there was no reason for it. But I had decided it's not hard enough. Yeah. And so you really start to truly pretend like you're a different person. Right. And it's hard, I think that one of the things, and I always love hearing from people who are different ages than us, even within the same generation or different generations, because it's hard to sort out when we do these episodes, especially since you and I are pretty close to the same age, it's hard to sort out what is youth versus what is the time. Right. And it's like, I think it's a normal, youthful, you know, the desire to prove yourself or the desire to like forge this different identity or, you know, the hyper awareness of what your friends are doing and what others are doing. Like that's, I know that's all just. just like developmentally typical behavior, right? So on the one hand, all of that makes sense. But then in terms of generationally, it's hard to then figure out, okay, what was normal

youth development of individuation, forging your own individual identity, defining yourself against what other people like or trying to keep up with what other people liked, and what was an extremely homogenous, extremely sexist, extremely oppressive mainstream culture, where there weren't really any off-ramps. And this is something we've talked about before with other rewinds. We talk about, you know, the monoculture versus now. Right.

And there was a time, there was a time, man, in the 2010s when I really, really, really had high hopes for the differentiation of culture and for moving away from monoculture. And I thought, this is so great. Like now, you know, weird little different kids in Iowa can find other people like them online. They can find, you know, music and songs

and movies and shows that are different than what everyone is watching. And now in 2025, I have much, I have mostly despair about, about where our culture is at. Oh. The YouTubeification of culture, I think is not, not good. But it is always such an interesting exercise to go back to the early 2000s, which is also what we are trying to forge our individual identities and realize there was no room for differentiation or to the point that, yeah, I thought that I was so different. And I truly felt so different.

So different. For liking Green Day, which is a popular band. Yes. It was a popular band in 2002. But it was even just different enough from what everyone else was doing or what it felt like everyone else was doing that you felt insane. Yes. Did you ever wear a sock on your arm? Sweat bands.

Okay. Only sweat bands. You didn't do the socks. You did sweat bands. So many sweatbands. I loved my sweatbands. But I did wear tube socks in this year. Oh, hell yeah.

All right. With the long shorts, right? Long, high tube socks, long, long shorts. I was not wearing the skirt like Avril, but I did. And I think maybe that was why I hated her because you weren't allowed to like women. Right. And so I was like, this woman is wearing, theoretically I should have liked being presented a woman who was like a little punky, you know, because I.

Right, yeah. But instead I was like, fuck you. Yeah. You're not counterculture enough. Yeah. But you know what was for you, MJ, this might light up your board. What about Joe Millionaire? Joe Millionaire was in the top five most popular TV shows of 2002.

Yes, this is the emergence of reality because it's also first year of American Idol, which I didn't watch, but I did watch the next year. But I did watch Joe Millionaire. Ooh, man, my buddy had dropped out of college and moved in across the street. And boy, did I go over to his house and watch Joe Millionaire. It was awesome. Oh, dude. I bet. I wasn't into, I didn't watch any of the reality stuff.

I wasn't into any of this world. Unfortunately, a different world that I definitely certainly was hiding from everybody was I, hairspray came back this year. The John Travolta hairspray? I think, no, the Bredway. And I lost my mind. Really? Oh, baby.

I mean, Fat Girl Ead, you never fucking see that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was waiting for that since the beginning of, and this was like when I first really started getting into theater. So I was also listening to musicals voraciously in secret. Yes, yes, yes. And man, I would, every morning. I would do that, good morning, Baltimore.

And I would just sing it to myself. And if anybody, like, Henry would be like, here are you singing in there, like, knock him out. I'm like, I'm not, I'm not singing. Like he would like come back from college because like he of course, because this is also the time period. First year without brother, he would come home and I'd be so angry that he had left that I just like would barely talk to him and he would come home. And I'd slam the door and be like, you didn't even know who I am anymore. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Did you ever have those? Well, I don't know. I think that this is a, this is a, the Zabrowski's are a little spicy. Overdramatic. Ficeier is a nicer. That's a nicer way to say it. Neffles are a bit more Midwestern.

The Zabrowski's are a little more East Coast. So I think that you and Henry have always been a little bit more ready to show your emotions to one another. I think much to the positives and detriments of our relationship, yes. I don't think I ever even said to my brother, like, I miss you, you know? Like, I think I should have, I think it probably would have been easier if I was like, I really miss you and I miss having another kid in the house and I want to be grown up like you. at all. You know, I didn't say those things. I just felt. I just felt. Oh, yeah. Oh, we were feeling. Oh, dude. We were feeling. But it's, it is so funny.

Like, because, yeah, of course during this time I was also a theater kid and a specifically a musical theater kid. So how funny is it that a lot of my angst, I mean, I've talked before about how a lot of my angs was channeled through ska, which is funny, instead of new metal, I channeled my inks through ska and pop. Sorry, my slime just popped. That was a slime pop. That wasn't like my knee just popped. I didn't know if you. heard the pop, but it was my slime. I hope the listeners heard it. But, but yeah, a lot of my...

Slime saying hi, it's like when smoke follows someone and they go, well, smoke follows beauty. Well, when you hear the pop of a slime, that goes out to you. But, like, I definitely remember spending a lot of time being really, like, sadly listening to musicals in my basement, you know? Like my, like my... Oh, you had a basement? Oh, my God. MJ. I would sadly play trumpet in the basement.

I would listen to music in the basement. Tell me about this basement. Just give me a little bit. Let me live in your basement dream. I always wanted a basement in my head. Because in Florida there's no basements because it's filled on sand and it's all going to go back into the world. Under into the ocean very soon. But no basements and I always, oh, I wanted to be.

Oh, I'll tell you about my basement. It was not a finished basement. And I was a little jealous because some of my friends had houses that were newer and had nice finished basements. Mine was not a finished basement. We lived in an old house with a. scary basement. But what my parents had done, God bless them, and had put like a rug. It also flooded sometimes, might do. But we had like a rug and an L couch in like a corner of the basement with some bookshelves and a TV. That's all you need to do. That's all you need, bro.

Even though it was concrete and dark, it did have a couch in a rug. And it was a great place to bring friends to hang out. Love that. It was a great place to be sad and listening to music. And yes, It was very, very concrete. And I always felt a little scared walking down there at first. But also, yes, it was great. I think about this with my own kids. I'm like, where will they go to like angrily be away from us? And again, I loved my parents.

My parents are great. I didn't really ever have like a horrible rebellion against them. But you know, you're a teenager. Again, it's typical identity differentiation. You have to go be upset somewhere. And yes, for me, my, my slightly finished basement was where I would do that. And I would, yeah, it would be like listening to West Side Story or whatever. like musical at the time, you know.

Oh, yeah. Just such a funny thing to think back about being like a 16 year old, just like really, really feeling their feelings through West Side Story. Oh, I mean, I get you. Not the worst musical to do that too. No. And either is Harris Bray. And, you know, sometimes. Hairspray is great.

You're just channeling your anger. I mean, the musical, hairspray is unbelievable. It's such a, and talk about seeing yourself as someone that like in theater, Especially that time, it's like you're a fat girl in theater. You're only playing the characters and you're only playing old people. Like, you don't get the leads. You don't get like, and that is, you know, Henry and I will forever talk about that, how we couldn't get into the BFA.

In Tallahassee, we were both separately told we were too fat to get into the BFA. And it's like it's only four. And it's like, what's the BFA? A Bachelor of Fine Arts versus the Bachelor of Arts. So BFA was literally, they would take the prettiest people and they would do. get the best, but then we would fight, but that's the thing. Then we kind of like unionize as like a separate of like, we want equal. Like we also want to be able to get those things and we fought and we made it happen.

But anyway, we're not talking about college unionizing here. We are talking about 2002 and just dreaming of what could be because, oh baby, I was such a romantic and I was so angry. I was so angry that all the gay boys I loved didn't want me back. I was so angry. I just, there was so many things that I had so many questions about, you know,

just like opening, like opening up about, like, I wanted to talk about the feelings I was having about my sexuality. I wanted to talk about. It's like, I had no one, and it had nothing to do.

It's like, I'm not even taking this out on our parents. They weren't taught how to do it. Right. And our parents have, grown as much as like I'm speaking personally my mom has grown a lot and it's learned a lot and I don't feel she's in the like characterization of a lot of boomers that people talk about now but you know I'm so curious to read down the line how like so many younger people talk about like

they're not feeling compelled to immediately leave they're not feeling compelled to like after high school be like I gotta go and I'm not saying hashtag not all teenagers but like it seems to be a growing trend that like maybe it's just fostering different relationships with your parents and it's a different conversation of what you have to do. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. And it is interesting to figure out how that interplays with the generational like with both with politics but also with the generational stuff too. Because yeah, even think like when you mentioned like sexuality, right? I'm thinking yeah. Okay. Obama was elected in 08. But mind you when in 2007 during the campaign. it was still like it was controversial to even be what I think it was 2006 or 2007 when it started to be the Democrats would start saying that they were in favor of civil unions right so culturally and this is something that I think is hard to understand if you're not a millennial or older like if you are a zoomer I think the rapid shift in culture from if you're talking about 2002 was there any like mainstream representation of queerness like I mean, certainly gay marriage was illegal and not only illegal, it was not even something that Democrats were advocating for even close, right? And so when we are... Sorry, I was just looking. I was like, when was but I'm a cheerleader?

Because that, that was 1999. That was 99. That was, because you also think about it though, too. I do wonder, and maybe I, guys, I am completely speaking out of my ass, but I do wonder if 9-11 did shoot. us into an even more puritanical timeline when it comes to pop culture. I think that's fair. I think that's quite fair because it was a patriotism, patriotism, patriotism. Yeah. It was are you for us or against us? You know, it was a very regressive time in terms of, you know, I don't, I don't know enough about culture at the time or in general to talk about how that necessarily played out in terms of like the music. I could say certainly in terms of there's an entire, when you look up to those and do movies, there's a whole section.

The rules of attraction dropped in 2002 and talk about a huge movie for me. Bro. Like, or you did you ever read Rules of Attraction or did you ever get into Rules of Attraction? I never did. Man, it was sexy and not, like, problematically. I'm not saying, I'm immediately now remembering things and I believe that this was problematically sexy. And I think that I may be, I haven't seen it a long time.

But I was very sexually into that movie. Wait, let me look up rules of attraction. I really don't remember it. Jessica, Jessica Beale was in it. James Vanderbeek was in it. Oh, this movie was in it. Yes.

Ozworth was in it. Oh, yeah. This was like love. It was a Brett Easton Ellis book. It was like Love Actually before Love Actually. Yeah, but dirty, darned, dardy, d'arty. It's sexier. Yes.

Yes. Yes. The same dude didn't. it's an American Psycho, so it is like, it's graphic and upsetting. Yes. Maybe I shouldn't be even saying this is right. I loved it then, but please, I haven't seen it a long time. Don't cancel Jackie over loving rules of attraction.

No, it is, this is, I would love to hear from older listeners who remember this, who remember more about the politics of this time, even people a few years older. I'll bet that if you were in college, you have a better sense on this. Because I took a class in college called War in Film or War in Media. And it was so fascinating. And this was, you know, I was in college from 2005 to 2008. So there was a lot of war propaganda, you know, at that time. And so I'll bet that you guys could also have a flesh out our perspective because I was very myopic focus on myself at this time.

Very much so. my politics. Like I knew, I knew that I felt really worried about the Islamophobia and stuff, but I really was not, I did not have a developed politics at all. I did not. I knew what I didn't, like, we were talking about before with the daughters of the American Revolution. I knew what I didn't like. I knew that I certainly had, this was certainly a huge for me beginning of my human rights, female rights like yeah because everything around me was so against yes all of that that like it is insane that like you're right that we thought we were so counterculture when in reality it's like well who are you against you because at that age your world is much smaller yes you're

against the people that you're around totally and that is to you bucking against it and you know I still make jokes with some friends that I have in high school that like were on a separate spectrum of politics from me back then. And now I'm like, and look at you now. Interesting. Oh, y'all, liberals. Oh, you just had to go to college and you came out liberal. And I love you better for it.

Yes. And, but again, they were also a product of their parents. They're, you know, we went to school. Like, we were, we got into a school that was very well off because we were in the I B program. So we were surrounded by wealthy people, but we were not, we did not come from a wealthy family. So we were surrounded by people that came from generations. You know, they were going from Florida generations. And you're like, and you know what that fucking means. And so it's like it, you know enough that to create a lot of angst, but again, you're not, you're not, you're not reading marks.

You're not reading, you're not reading. Right. No. You're not reading. But I was reading Brett Easton Ellis. And I was like, I am greater than thou. Totally. I was reading like Carowac and I was like, I think men should kiss. But I hadn't read any like, I got to college and that was when I read like third wave feminism. And I was like, oh, gender isn't real. You know, but yeah, in high school, I was like, I know what I don't believe. I know that these, that like the way that these people are talking about, you know, an entire religion is bad.

But I didn't have a framework. I didn't have any texts. and I didn't have any real framework for what I did believe. And so, yeah, and again, hard to remember how deeply conservative, you know, mainstream culture was at the time and how few offroads there were from it. And yeah, I mean, just looking back at like, you know, we're talking, again, in 2008, the 2008 election with Obama, it was like, that was just when Democrats were starting to figure out, do I want to say that I'm in favor of gay marriage or do I want to say that I'm in favor of gay marriage or do I want to say that I'm in. in favor of civil unions. Like, we are really talking about a much, much more conservative time. And so I think that's why, like, you know, when I hear people like to cry all the

wokeness now, there is part of me that's like, you do not understand what it used to be like, you know, but, but also, right. I, not that everything is going well now either. No, because low rise genes are on the rise and not in the good way. Structured vests also making a comeback And MJ, I need you to know, all right? Back then, I tried to make vests work for me. It's hard.

Back then it was hard for a fat person to find a good vest. Even though Averill was wearing up. Even though Averill was wearing up, but she was little. Yeah, she was little. teeny tiny, yeah. I am now also looking, I am sitting atop right now a structured vest that I have on this chair that I purchased, that I am going to end up donating because it doesn't fit me.

How many structured vests am I going to buy? When you say structured, what makes a structured vest different from a vest? Okay, she's putting it on. I'm going to put this vest up. She's putting the vest on. Are we talking a popped collar? Does it have a permanent? You see how this pops out?

Yeah, so it pops out to the side. I love this, Jackie. So it has, so rather than just a limp, it is something that like provides a silhouette. I see, I see, something that gives you a silhouette. Okay. Where guys, where are we getting these structures? Where are you getting your structured vest from? Why don't you like this one?

Do you have a body shape? Does the vest fit you? I'm just, it's not even that my tits are huge. I don't know. Oh, this is, yeah. I don't know what it is. No, this is a thing because back when I had tits, I wanted to wear a vest for my wedding. And we got.

Is it the tits? I feel the same way about suspenders. I think the tits. A fan person, any, like, I think suspenders are hot. Suspenders are very hot. Sometimes when you have tits, hard for tits. Just suspenders are difficult.

Yes. No, it's the tits. We, Gidea and I got custom suits for our wedding. And yeah, at the time I did have tits. And that tailor was like, we're going to have to like, because I was like, I don't want it to be like a femme vest. I want it to be like a more masculine looking vest. But the tailor was like, you kind of have to have it be a little lower. You have to shape it for tits.

Yes. So I think. You have to take it. I think. I think you have to take it to a place to make it for my body. Yes. And when am I going to do that, MJ? I know.

May I please direct you to the lump of clothes I have in my room that I'm like, I need to take this is Taylor. And then I fold it up and I put it in a pile. And then I put it on another thing that I need to take Taylor. And oh, I think it's been there for eight months, MJ. We're not here talking about tailors. We're here talking about structured vests. And they are on the rise. But so are pleaded skirts.

I'm looking specifically at an article that's in. that these items from 2002 are making a fashion comeback. Graphic T-shirts, which we know, and I am getting back into graphic T-shirts. Pleaded skirts. I'm fine with the pleaded skirts. Yeah, pleated skirts are pretty flattering, I think. I think it usually gives you a good ass silhouette,

which I believe is what a lot of us are looking for if you are wearing a pleaded skirt. Yeah, yeah. Now, we've got structured vests, which, again, you're talking about, like, you know, vests come in all types. I enjoy a structured vest because of the silhouette that it brings, but it is, like I said, difficult to find one that fits a human being's body. Yeah. If you have a curve at all. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely people, yeah, no, vests are tough. Vest are tough. I'm very excited because holes and cutouts are making way back. So I'm seeing a lot more mesh. And everybody knows I still have all the mesh from when I did mesh 2018. So don't worry, the mesh is returning. But something that really excites me. is back then corsets were really into fashion.

And I now, because of Akitar, have so many corsets. And am I going to start, guys, wearing a corset around? Maybe. I'm like really having a hard time looking at these pictures of women from Tony 2002. Because it's really bringing back the intense level of body and dysmorphia I had at the time. And like, do you, are you looking at it? I think I'm looking at the same article as you. Did you see this picture of Kira Knightley?

Like, you know, I know that we're like... Are you looking at the in-style one or the other one? I'm looking at a bus. All right. Okay, I know I'm on my way to you, MJ. Hold on. I mean, I just see. I know that in 2025 we try not to comment on people's bodies at all, no matter what size

they are. But there is, I think that it's fair for me and Jackie to say as people who are high school girls in this time that the model for what you were supposed to look like in when you were this age in 2002 was that. was that you were supposed to look like you were starving yourself. That was the goal. And I, Jackie and I were just talking off mic the other day about how body positivity is over. RIP positive positivity.

Y'all, if you put in 2002, Kiera Knightley, low-rise jeans, this picture will pop up and you will see what we are intending where it's like I, you're right. And we shouldn't comment on this body. But I'm sorry, Kira Knightley, that society told you. that this is what you had to do and what you had to be. And I'm sorry that you had to go through this. Yeah. It's just, there must be a way where we can figure out how to not comment on other people's bodies and talk about the way that.

Should I not even say? I'm sorry. I don't even know what to say. How do you say? I don't know. This is an open, I think that we can come to you listeners humbly and ask, how do we figure out how to talk about we don't want to, we don't want to single out women.

We don't want to blame women. We don't want to, whatever. No, I'm blaming society. Yes. And then, right, figuring out, like, reckoning with the images of women that we were shown and how we were supposed to look and that for a while it felt like that was getting better. And then now it feels like it's getting bad again, right? And. It is. Also, by the way, I said Kiera Knightley. And I was typing Kira Knightley, and I fucked that up. Yeah, Kira Knightley.

My mouth, my mouth made a decision. It's Kira Knightley, but it's just, I just needed to say that. Well, I think that this, hopefully listeners, hopefully we've given you some food for thought. When it comes to what it comes to what the early aughts were like and we're not keeping a lot of it. I don't think that we should keep much of it. But some of it is coming back. And I don't know if that's good. Yeah, I'm scared. We just got through our 90s nostalgia.

Does that mean an early aughts nostalgia is next? cyclically. I think that's what it means. Can we stay in the 90s? And I don't know. Can we stay here? I love the big pants. I love what they're doing. I got big pants. I wear big shirts now. Please. I have to be so comfortable. Guys. You can email us at page seven podcast at gmail.com. We love your pushback. But please remember, we are trying our best over here. If you disagree with us or if you see something differently, we love to hear it. But, you know, assume our good faith. We are we are but two people. just remembering how sad we were in high school. That's all we're trying to do. So sad. But also I had a great time at high school. How do I record? Like I was at musicals.

I was playing trumpet. You know, I was fine. But it's just, it was a weird time in life, you know. According to me then, I was having a blast. I mean, I was doing everything under the sun. Yeah. And I was having a good time with it. But I really wasn't.

It is interesting to think of a time period in your life when you could shut out everything else and look inward and what were we so busy doing hating ourselves. Right. This is like it is, I know that we really probably should banish the phrase youth has wasted on the young. But I think about this time period where it's like, man, you don't have any bills. You don't have like, you have big, huge worries because you're feeling a lot of huge things for the first time.

And that in and of itself is a full-time job. That's the thing. It's not, yeah, you're thinking about your future. You might be thinking about college. You might be getting you. Everyone's, yes. And they're all asking you, what are your plans? What are you going to do?

What are you going to be? Who are you? What are you? And you're like, I'm 15. I don't know. Right. But you're told you're supposed to know. Right.

And I am excited for our future that it does seem that that is not necessarily the rhetoric anymore. And I think that it's, I think it's great that it's not, you know, just like, yeah, I mean, everybody's going to go through the you don't get me. I guess you still go through it, though, because you go through the same hormones no matter what. You know what I, you know who I want to hear from? People who are approximately our age, maybe a little older, who have tweens or teens now. Yes. Because I would love to hear looking back on what it was like for us then versus what it's like now, right? because I think a lot of it is the same in terms of, again, identity development, differentiation, figuring out who you are, figuring out what culture means to you and all that stuff. But then, right, I think you're right. There is really, really big differences. Kids these days are not getting their licenses as soon or ever. They're not moving out as soon or ever. And I think there's a lot more, you know, political hopelessness because of climate change. But there's also some more political move. I think kids are generally more tuned into politics now because of TikTok and whatever. And so I would love to hear people who,

who have, or if you're a teacher, a counselor, or you work with young people, if you can provide some insight on thinking about what it was like then versus what it's like now. Because I'll bet that there is some that's totally the same. And then in other ways, I think that it is really different. And I'll bet that some things are better. I really believed for a long time that things were better. And now my hope is in the toilet. Turn in on that. And I'm not sure it's better. It's not sure. It's better to be a young person now than it was then. And so, yeah, that is a perspective I would love to hear. But also, man, sorry, just real quick, remember that U-2 Super Bowl halftime show with the tribute to 9-11? The 9-11 Memorial?

Yeah, that was, I didn't watch that. I remember that stuff you two is made for them. Wow. That is. Wow. But also, we were, like, the, every, it was such a hateful time. And also, at least my world was filled with mourning. Right.

And we didn't talk about it. And we never processed it. Like we weren't working on it. No. And then you look back and you think, man, well, no wonder I went to anger managed. Well, and the response to 9-11 wasn't, the grief just became anger. Yes, it did. Zenophobia.

Yes. There wasn't, there wasn't, yeah, the grief was channeled towards Islamophobia and xenophobia. And as a nation. And I think that's probably true for people who were individually grieving as well. Well, I don't know about that. But there wasn't a, there wasn't a like, it wasn't a reflective time. It was a reactionary time. Man, but also this was a blanket time dangling that baby over the balcony, Michael Jackson, 2002.

Yacht man. Still alive at that point, getting weirder by the day. It had to do with a custody, right? it had something I honestly I was too young I remember looking at this happening just being like oh my god that's crazy and then continuing on with my life because you were 15 but like what was the reason behind that and I know I'm asking another person that that was that age I don't think we know I think it was Michael Jackson being Michael Jackson when also when you look at that picture he did not have a good enough grip on that baby like this like a lot of like the tabloid things from back then were kind of like

you know, whatever's. But he shouldn't have done that with that baby. He had the baby around the armpits. Babies are very slippery. Don't hang it over a balcony. No. Are you good? I was trying to.

Oh my God. Sorry. I'm just reading about people that were at the infamous baby balcony incident. And apparently someone says, actual answer I've heard from a fan. It wasn't that dangerous because the fans would have caught the baby if he fell. That's a really insane fucking thing to say. And then what are you going to? mother the baby.

That is a reference for only people that watched the movie, Mother, and I understand if you didn't. Let's just say the baby doesn't have a good time. Yeah. Well, Blanket's name is now Beechy, and he's 23. So that'll make you feel old. I'm just, I'm sorry. I'm trying to quickly figure out. They were trying, he was like trying to get everyone on his side.

For some, it must have had to do with custody, but I just don't know why that would help. I don't know if Michael Jackson was making rational choices at this point in his life. Oh, MJ. Hot take alert. Okay. And again, this is not one of those big fat nothings. Look at the picture, man. You cannot hold a baby over a balcony that way. Don't do it. No. A lot of choices that he made. Bad choices. Bad choice. Oh, I'm sorry. I was just losing myself into a conspiracy theory that the baby wasn't real and that he was hanging a fake baby over the balcony because he would never do that to his children. You're a liar article.

And I, uh, that is a conspiracy theory. So anyway, I guess we're moving right along, as the Muppets might say. Yeah. Because I don't know. I think that this is going to be one where we don't know the answer. I'm sad about it though. Yeah. I mean, I'm sad about it also for Blankets existence.

and I'm sorry for whatever those kids are having to go through for the rest of their lives. But you know, those baby pinks and baby blues, they're making their way back into the hues of society. And I am not excited about it. I'm not a big surprise, not a huge pastels person. I did recently buy baby blue shoes and I have immediately gotten them dirty. Yeah, yeah. What was that, MJ? You can't bring the best of my transition?

No, I'm laughing about this headline from 2002. The headline is, did Jacko cross the line with dangling baby? And that really just gives you a taste of what the headlines were like back then. You're with your mom. You're at the grocery store. You're reading the headlines. You're thinking, I'll never look like Jennifer Love Hewitt. What's wrong with me?

And then you're like, did Jacko cross the line with dangling the baby? The answer is yes. We're going to frame it like a question. Yep, as if, you know, but that's, that's zany newscasting. for 2002. And I do love, I, and one thing I'm going to finally say about the fashion trends that are apparently coming back are the dresses over pants. Yeah, I like that.

You know, I, I hated it then. Hated it, hated it, hated it, hated it then. But I could see a world where I feel like I would be very warm and I'm a little bit of a sweaty betty, so I don't know if I'd like that per se. but and also I have a fun I've got fun leg tattoos that I like to show off so I like wearing skirts or shorts specifically because I like to show them off well the pants aren't in lieu of wearing nothing the pants are in lieu of wearing like tights aren't they I guess man we were I was just talking the other day about how I remember my mom was surprised that I wasn't going to wear panty hose on my wedding day and I was like man isn't it great that we grew up I will say we're One fun thing for coming growing up in the culture that we grew up in got rid of panty hose for the most. Oh, yeah. Like in the fact that you have to wear them to make an outfit complete.

Can we just say thank you, society. Thank you for letting that go the way of the dodo because I really. Yeah, I'm not doing that. I really just, I don't need a hose. I don't want the hose. And I have Verico's veins. And I probably should have the hose and I don't want them. No, bare legs feel too good.

Nothing looks as good as bare legs feel. How's that? You damn right. Let me out. Let me out to play. And I guess back into a handkerchief hem that I don't know if I will be falling back into. I don't know if you remember the handkerchief hems. But I always thought I looked like a fat parrot pirate.

And it made me look like Jackie wanted a crock-off in the same way. I'm sorry. Also, apparently I have to stop talking about the fashion. baggy joggers, aka pirate pants, those are apparently also making a comeback. Oh, definitely. Definitely. I don't know how you feel about a jodper. Yeah, how do you feel about jodpers?

Are you like into this era? Yeah, it's fine. I don't know what I'm supposed to wear on my, I don't know what I'm, I was going to say, on my bottom half, but I don't know what I'm supposed to wear in my top half either. I'm lost. I'm lost at sea. You couldn't go as a boy man, see, really. You tried living like a blonde man.

Did they write this song about you, MJ? This is how you remind me about everything. Okay, I won't continue on. This is how our show reminded you of who we really were in Nickelback in 2002. And you know you kind of like that. If you liked music like this back then, you know you kind of like this song. And everybody says they hate this song that you know, or at least you know all the words to it. Somebody was listening to it.

I'm out. It was number one in 2002. It was me. And it was just me. And I put it in each of my five CD changer. I didn't. But I did have a five CD disc changer. Anyway, getting out of here.

Thank you guys for revisiting 2002. Thank you for going through our traumas together. And thank you for, you know what, MJ, thank you for navigating me through some therapeutic moments that I didn't know that I needed. I hope everybody has a little something extra to bring to therapy this week. You're welcome. You're welcome. Oh my God, we did just give you some bullet points. You are welcome.

Everybody, have a great week. We will be back soon. And I hope you are enjoying your spring to summer experience, everybody. My name is Jackie Zabrowski. You can follow me on Instagram at Jack That Worm. And you can come hang out with MJ. Not over on the Patreon. Patreon.com slash page seven podcast.

Guys, you are getting stuff Monday through Friday over on the Patreon. We got Jackie's book club. We've got Buffy watchalongs. We've got celebrities. And then we've got our big shows. Come hang with us. It's a great community over there. M.J.

You can email us at page 7 podcast at gmail.com. We love hearing from you, especially episodes like this, where we're talking culture, we're talking politics, we're talking memories. Email us. And if you want more of me, I'm MJ. I'm MJ K. LKat on Instagram. And I'm MJ Neffel on Blue Sky. Bye, everybody. Bye.

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