Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Abi Morgan on the Importance of Hope, Everyday Superheroes, and the Moments of Magic EP 168

Starting point is 00:00:00 Coming up next on the Passion Struck Podcast. I shut down people's hopes sometimes because it was almost too painful to hope. And I think if I was going to have that again, I would say, keep that horizon as well, I just can't. And believe you can go as far as you can, because every case is so individual and so personal that you just never know. So I certainly think when the person said that to me, I feel a real conflict for the motions, you know. Welcome to Passion Struck.

Starting point is 00:00:23 Hi, I'm your host, John Armiles. And on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips, and guidance of the world's most inspiring people and turn their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you. Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself. If you're new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays. We have long-form interviews the rest of the week

Starting point is 00:00:51 with guest-ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries, and athletes. Now, let's go out there and become PassionStruck. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to episode 168 of Passion Struck. Ranked as one of the top 10 alternative health podcasts in the world. And thank you to each and every one of you who come back weekly to listen and learn, how to live better, be better, and impact the world.

Starting point is 00:01:21 And if you're new to the show, welcome. Or you would like to introduce it to friends and family members. Thank you for doing that. We now have episodes starter packs, both on Spotify and on the PassionStruck website. And these are collections of our fans' favorite episodes that we create into these lists to give any new listener a great way to get acquainted to everything that we do here on the show. Just go to passionstruck.com slash starter packs to get started. In case you missed my interview from earlier in the week it featured hurt Wilkin who's an entrepreneur and the founder of Higher Better. We discuss his debut book Who's Your Mike which is a no bullshit guide to the people that you'll meet along your

Starting point is 00:02:00 entrepreneurial journey. In case you missed my episodes from last week they featured Jean O'W, who was the founding CEO of Virgin Unite, which is the philanthropic arm of the Virgin Company's lead by Richard Branson. And we discuss her new book, Partnering, and how you can forge important relationships in your life that can possibly change the world and create systems change.

Starting point is 00:02:22 We also had on Kara Chamberlain, who is the survivor of a kidnapping by a serial killer, and we discuss her heroine story and the lessons that she wants to impart on others. In case she missed my solo episode from last week, it was on the topic of how do you break free from mediocrity, and I provide many different ways that you can do so. So please check them all out, and if you really love any of them, we would so appreciate a five star rating and review. They go so far in helping to increase the popularity of this show. And I know our guests so appreciate it when they see comments, especially if you love their episodes. Now let's talk about today's guests. Abbey Morgan is a playwright, author, and screenwriter.

Starting point is 00:03:05 Her plays include Skinned, Sleeping Around, Splendor, Tiny Dynamite, Tender, Fugie 27, Love Song, and The Mistress Contract. Her television work includes My Franchial Heart, Murder, Sex Traffic, Sinami, The Aftermath, White Girl, Royal Wedding, Bird Song, the hour, river, and the split. Her film writing credits include Rick Lane, Iron Lady, Shame, Surfagey, and The Invisible Woman. She has won a number of awards including BAFTA's and an Emmy for her TV and film work. She is the author of the new novel, This Is Not A Pity Memoir, and we discuss how growing up in a nomadic family had a profound impact on her life. How she discovered her love for storytelling, we discuss some of her most famous movies and the power of the actors who portrayed characters that she developed.

Starting point is 00:03:55 Abby explains how she created her hit series The Split. We then go into detail in the love story that plays out in her memoir, How her life has forever been altered, and her advice to others about how she weathered the storm. Thank you for choosing PassionStruck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life. Now, let that journey begin.

Starting point is 00:04:17 I am so excited to welcome Abby Morgan to the Passion Start podcast. Welcome Abby. Hi, thanks for having me on. I am so excited to get this opportunity to do this interview and when Harper Collins reached out to me and I got a chance to read your book, it made it that much more of a powerful interview that just had to be done. But before we get into your book, just so the audience can see it,

Starting point is 00:04:46 I'll put a copy of it right here, and it'll be on the show notes as well for sure. Abby, I understand when you were growing up and in your childhood, both your parents were in theater and that caused you to move around a lot. How did that nomadic lifestyle influence you? Yeah, I mean, from a very young age, I lived for the first few years in Cardiff Wales, which is where I was born.

Starting point is 00:05:06 My father was a theatre director and my mother was an actress and invariably we moved wherever there was a theatre or the next job. Between three and 1718, I went to seven different schools and so we went, I lived in a new castle on time, which is in the north, and then I moved to the Midlands and strapped upon Avan Shakespeare's home place and then ended up for a long period in the potteries which is very well known for Royal Dalton and Wedgewood and again my mother was a rep actress. What it taught me and how useful it's been certainly in my writing career is just different characters, different people and the ability to shapeshift I guess. Every different part of the country has a different kind of community and so I think for us as individually and as a family, we were very good at readjusting to every new home that we went to. And I think I learned how to interact with people and just how to try and live in the moment because you didn't necessarily have anything beyond your family in that place. And certainly the

Starting point is 00:05:58 company of all the community that my parents were involved in, IE actors and directors, that was very transient. You know, it came and it went. So like a production really, you were within the cycle of production. The life always had its kind of highs when you were building towards the first night and then invariably the shape that it would play with end and you'd either move on or they'd be a new play. So I think my life follows that rhythm, but I guess what it taught me was a certain self-sufficiency and an ability to get on with people for more walks of life. I definitely think that was one of the key things.

Starting point is 00:06:28 If you're a child going into a new playground or a new classroom, you have to find your friends pretty quickly and you have to learn how to adjust and duck and dive a bit. And I think it gave me that skill. Okay, and with that as a backdrop, then how did you develop this incredible passion for storytelling? Well, it's interesting. As a child, I wasn't very academic.

Starting point is 00:06:50 I didn't write lots of stories, but I was a really good storyteller. Some people called it storytelling. Some people might call it lies. I love telling and fabricating stories. And so I think it was a very natural evolution coming from the kind of background that I came from. I decided to go and do English and drama at university. And in in part that was because I realized quite quickly I wasn't an actor. I have an actress mother, my sister was an actress. Various friends, I had her actors and I realized

Starting point is 00:07:13 very quickly that there's a kind of feast and famine life to that but with writing it was something I could do totally on my own, I could escape into it. I really loved reading. I suddenly developed that passion. I think really when I was at university and I started to hear what it felt like when an audience listened and I knew I couldn't hold an audience as an actress, but when I started to do some short plays monologues, I could feel that I was making a connection in some way and that I could hold an audience. That was the big thing for me and it became quite addictive. So I guess that's where the passion really That was the big thing for me and it became quite addictive. So I guess that's where the passion really grew, but I think also in many ways, if your father's an electrician, you probably know how to rewire a socket.

Starting point is 00:07:50 It's in the blood, certain degree. I also came from a family where storytelling was very much part of the day today, amazing writers from Beckett to check off to Arthur Miller, one of the greatest playwrights I think ever. I got to see those plays from a young age, so I think that had a huge influence on me as well. So it was, I was very well geared and set to become a writer. Well, it's interesting. Your story reminds me of an interview that I saw a couple years ago with Hillary Swank and she was asked, do you get the question, what do you do? And she said, yes, and I detest it because I'm an actress, I'm a producer, I'm a director. She goes, but ultimately, what I am as a storyteller and that's how I approach all of them.

Starting point is 00:08:36 So, reminds me a little bit about. I'll take that. I'll take anything that Hillary Swank says, quite frankly. You're such a goddess. I'd be very happy to align with her. I heard to imagine a living out of, I think, a small van, and then getting your break. And in that film only getting paid, I think, three or four thousand dollars for the work.

Starting point is 00:08:57 But wow, her career is skyrocketed since then. While speaking of films, you are a well-known playwright and screenwriter, and your best-known films are Aaron Lady, Shane, and Sephirgett. And I wanted to ask, what is it like to have people like Meryl Streep, Ralph Eines, and Kerry Mulligan play actors in your film? No, I've always loved actors. I love the way they're shaped. I love the energy of them. I think growing up with actors, I used to love that moment. The night only really began once the show was over and you could feel like that was when their day began and so I love the fact that actors love a

Starting point is 00:09:37 repartee and are ready to sort of so fully inhabit every element of life. I think working with the colour of actor that I got to work with in the access access I've got has just been amazing. I mean working with Merrill, you feel like you've won the lottery and I've got to work with her a couple of times. Rafe Carey, there are a list of amazing actors and what I love about them is that you know I never really understand if I'm the birth mother or the surrogate of work because when I see actors they fully adopt and own those characters, that's the the moment I really love. And I love that relationship between writers and actors because I feel like they burn very bright, but there's an impermanence to them. They come in and they go out again. And to a certain degree,

Starting point is 00:10:15 you need that material channeler of your work. And so I write very much for actors. And one of the things I love, and I think I trust because I come from actors is the way what looks very simple on the page can be transformed by an actor. So I love very leaned dialogue. Arnold Wesker the playwright said that the writer is director in the stage directions and that's where I love the way a script's laid out. But partly I'm always writing for actors because they fill out my natural home and I've got huge confidence in them but working with Meryl is amazing. Does she ever put her foot wrong? She's extraordinary. Someone like Carrie, again I've written her as a kind of an abuse sister in contemporary New York and then I've written her

Starting point is 00:10:56 into the 1920s London suffrage act, kind of woman looking for emancipation and actually the breadth of those actors performances are brilliant but also it's very exciting to be able to write for that kind of range. for emancipation and actually the breadth of those actors' performances are brilliant but also it's very exciting to be able to write for that kind of range. So I feel very lucky and fortunate I've got to work with them. Yeah, someone who might not be familiar with what it's like to make one of these motion pictures, how much interaction do you have while they're filming with the actors? Well, it's very interesting. I think the world of film has changed and evolved. Certainly when I was starting out, you would be there at a read through

Starting point is 00:11:30 and you might get a couple of moments with notes for the actor. But I guess as I've grown older and grown more experienced, but also I think because the small screeners become so powerful and important, I've always stayed very close to actors in TV writing and that should be extended out to my film writing. So it tends to be that sometimes you meet an actor relatively early

Starting point is 00:11:48 on. So certainly I'd written a few drafts of, for example, the Iron Lady, where Meryl Street was playing Margaret Thatcher, but actually when I felt the script really evolved is when I got a chance to work with her in the room and spend a few days in New York with her and see that character come to life. So you can sometimes have those very long periods where you're really developing work. Other times, you might meet an actor that day on set. If it's a smaller part, so they're very much very, it's something like working with ways finds

Starting point is 00:12:12 on the invisible woman, which is a film about Charles Dickin. That was extraordinary, because it was such a passion project for him too. So he worked with an actor of his caliber who really loves to shape and research and source, research for the character, then you really evolve and shape the script. So it really, really depends. TV, it's much more immediate, you hit the ground running, you may have developed and have an act to remind,

Starting point is 00:12:33 but actors tend to come relatively late in television. A lot of actors are also involved as exact producers now, so they may have to help develop work. But I tend to work very intensely during the period and certainly I write a TV show called The Split on BBC and that was very interesting for me because it was my first time directing. And so I suddenly loved the even more access I got to actors. In fact, I think I'll find it very difficult to go back to just being a writer again after that because you get such access to actors in your work. It's brilliant. I loved that. Well, as I was researching you for the interview, I happened to go on Rotten Tomatoes and I looked up the split and I couldn't believe that the average audience rating on it

Starting point is 00:13:13 was 96% positive. Wow, I didn't know that. That's great. I'm going to look at it to me get me after this. That's unheard of. I couldn't believe it. For someone who might not be familiar with the series because it's a BBC run series, what is it about and how did you come up with the idea? Yeah, so the split is about a family of female family lawyers who specialize in divorce and every aspect of marriage and divorce so that can be the premium, not the post-nut. And but at its heart it's about three sisters and their mother and family and love and loss and betrayal and it's set in London, it's set in a leading London law firm. I came up with the idea because I was standing by a hockey pitch watching my daughter play hockey one day

Starting point is 00:13:55 and I got talking to my mum and I said what you doing, she said I'm a family lawyer and did you know that London is the divorce capital of the world, which I didn't know? And so immediately in my ears pricked up and I thought, this is interesting. And as I asked a more stories, specifically about high end divorce, because the show really focuses on high end divorce. It focuses on the divorces of celebrities and sports stars and musicians and aristocrats.

Starting point is 00:14:18 And those sort of stories of the week become a way for us to filter and prism and see the lives of our central group of lawyers. I just rose, they were just so intriguing, exciting. And so that was really the genesis, but also I wanted to look at the notion of devours and the effect and the legacy that devours lives on leaves on you as a person and how that affects your own devours. So the split was very much devised as three series and we've just completed, just aired over here the third series and I think it's coming to BBC America in the third week of June. So, I'm excited.

Starting point is 00:14:50 Interesting to see how a US audience respond to it, because I think we've just been really bold over. I mean, I'm going to definitely look at the Rotten Tomatoes rating, so I've never looked at that, but I think definitely it's been really embraced by the UK and I wonder if that's supposed COVID pandemic thing where we want to hold us, our loved ones much closer, we've had intense interpersonal relationships, we've allies have been filtered through Zoom and so it's a show that really is about family and although it's about breakups, it's also about makeup. It's been a really fun world and actually at the heart of it is a brilliant British actress which I'm sure many of your listeners and viewers will know, Nicola Walker, and she absolutely leads the whole show. So that was a completely

Starting point is 00:15:29 joyful experience to work on. Well, I read that, I can't remember where I saw it, but I read that you made the statement that divorce isn't failure. Why do you believe that to be the case? Well, actually, it was a statement that the one I spoke to a family lawyer. She said to me She said I don't see divorces failure. I just see some marriages as finite and I guess what's interesting is that I'm a huge believer in marriage You know, I got married relatively recently myself and an advocate for it But actually what I also recognize is we live long lives now and the kind of traditional notion of marriage Which is you may you're going to be with one person of

Starting point is 00:16:04 lives now and the traditional notion of marriage, which is you're going to be with one person for life is a really hard adage, particularly when if you get married in your 20s and 30s and hopefully live in to your 80s, whilst we all admire and respect those long marriages. We know you tend to say how did you do it. And I guess I wanted to look at the good divorce. That was always the heart of the drama. I wanted to look at, is it possible to have a divorce? Is it, can we have the conscious uncoppling? I know that people have ridiculed that statement, but I think there's something incredibly important and brave about that statement and the notion,

Starting point is 00:16:32 I think it's something to aspire to. So I guess I wanted to explore what it would mean and take out the curse of, and the sense of failure that people feel around a divorce, I guess. Okay, well, I understand you do your writing in a flat that's that's above our perfumery. Is that correct?

Starting point is 00:16:49 Yeah, well, actually, it's quite funny. It's actually the perfumery is the left and then we have Esau, which is a very famous sort of facial body product. So yeah, there's an amazing scent, you know. I've got so used to it, it feels normal to me, but I think we've all been slightly affected by COVID, but I think I've actually had my senses blasted out by the smell of perfume.

Starting point is 00:17:07 But yeah, I'm very lucky. So it's in a really lovely part of North London, and I'm very near to my home, so I can get here in 10 minutes. So yeah, I come here every day and work. Well, you get to love that. I think we all have our ways of wanting to write. Some people want to write in a loud coffee shop. I like it just being very quiet myself.

Starting point is 00:17:29 But I found it interesting when I read that interview that on one of your walls, you had a bunch of, it sounded like almost sticky notes that you were using to categorize. Yeah, you can have a little look, you can see it. Can you see? It's not unusual. In fact, it needs updating, but basically, I have a sliding storyboard wall, which I can slide. I can slide them across. Do you say I can slide them? I tend to storyboard at the beginning, and then very quickly, I go back onto interdrafts. But yeah, it's useful when you're doing a big series to kind of me to map

Starting point is 00:17:59 out and just kind of get a sense of the shape of different character outlines. It's something as well when you're working in a group, if you're working with other writers, it's in the story-lining room, you really need to be able to kind of see it away from yourself and up on the wall to share. So yeah, that's what I tend to do. Although those are about to come down and I think a new show is going to go up pretty soon. Well, exciting. It's interesting. I have a really good friend from college who's written now, I think 25 or 26 spine novels thrillers. And he uses a very similar methodology because I've asked him how can you pump out so many books. And he goes, I just storyboard everything and then kind of like yours, he hasn't in a way that he can shift it

Starting point is 00:18:38 if he needs to. And the plot becomes different. I'm admiring someone who can do 26 novels. I mean, it can send you a little stir crazy on your own. So I'm really admiringiring someone who can do 26 novels. I mean, it can send you a little stir crazy on your own. So I'm really admiring of authors who can sit there and just work in that way and in such an intense way. But there is something beautiful about the pros and the simplicity of that kind of writing and story lining. I get it. We'll be right back to my interview with Abby Morgan. Before you book any brunch, you pour over lists and lists of reviews. So why not do the same when you're booking a doctor's appointment? With ZopDoc, you can see real verified patient reviews to help find the right doctor

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Starting point is 00:20:09 You can go to passionstruck.com slash deals. Now, back to my interview with Abby Morgan. Well, I'm gonna use this as a way to shift now into your book. So the same time that you had the split ongoing, your life is just thrown. Yes, and your book kind of captures what went on between 2018 and June 2021. And I was hoping you could introduce the book to the audience so they understand some of the stuff that took place. Yeah, so this is not a pity memoir as my first bit of prose writing. It's a personal story about the last sort of three years really. June 2018, my partner of nearly 18 years,

Starting point is 00:20:56 Jacob collapsed with a brain seizure and so ensued kind of three years of chaos and medical tech catastrophe. And the book really tries to capture what it's like when someone close to you experiences a severe acquired brain injury, which is what happened to Jacob. He very quickly cognitively, psychiatrically, physically unravelled and was put into an induced coma. When they discovered that he developed a very rare form of end-canada chefalitis called anti-NMDA receptor and chefitis, which is a kind of global Encaffeolitis, which brain inflammation. It took a long time for them to treat it.

Starting point is 00:21:30 It was pretty life and death, but when he actually finally did start to recover and he came out of the coma, I started to realize that something wasn't quite right with Jacob. It became quickly apparent that Jacob had developed a very rare delusion called capgrapher delusion, which is the belief in imposter. So he woke up believing that the person close to him i.e. me was not really me, I was an imposter. And so the book really captures what happens when someone

Starting point is 00:21:56 you love is really questioning your identity and the identity of your family and the identity of your relationship. And the book is when I wrote it, I originally was trying to get it out. And I knew that there was a good story here, but what I didn't realize was that, inadvertently, I was writing a love story. And so I would say, and certainly the publishers have picked up on this, it's not a pity my more, it's a love story.

Starting point is 00:22:16 And it's really the love story of Jacob and I and my family and how we recovered. The third really bad plot twist, because the other element of the book, which is really vital, is that as a screenwriter, I was constantly looking at the experience of the lens of scenes and dialogue and cuts and edits, was that the very worst plot twist came, which was about three or four months into Jets recovery post his coma either was then diagnosed with a state three grade three breast cancer.

Starting point is 00:22:42 And so it's this other kind of left-of-field curveball where only in my identity, the identity of our relationship was being challenged, but also that time's very funny. And I think there's something very funny and also ultimately very hopeful at the heart of the book, which is really about how do you find your way back home and how does someone who is so lost themselves find their way back home. So it's very much a homage to Jacob and my love for him ultimately. Yeah, I imagine this story was so hard to release onto the world. Did you ever have or feel barriers to bringing this forward? And if so, how did you ever come? I think when everything is stripped away from you, you sort of find there's a power in that vulnerability.

Starting point is 00:23:41 And you think, actually, there's two ways I can go with this. I can hide away. I can cover this up. I can try and pretend I'm okay in the world or I can try and just say, look, I'm going to show you something that's happened to me that's raw and real and could happen to anybody. It was a sad medical catastrophe that could happen to anyone and I think one of the things that's been really extraordinary about this book and it's been really uplifting as the amount of people have reached out to me and said, oh my gosh, I didn't realise my experience just going to be written because in many ways, I guess what drew me to telling this story was how unique it felt, but actually what I realised is that everybody is

Starting point is 00:24:12 going through some kind of crisis and the book kind of works on a universal level, which is what happens when your life is completely thrown up in the air and how do you dig deep and start to put it back together again. I guess the biggest barrier to really releasing it was myself and actually realizing that it's very brutal the book in many ways but I think it's quite self-aware and the person it's most brutal about is me and I can kind of take that.

Starting point is 00:24:36 So I think one of the things I was trying to do was write a book that would protect my children and protect Jake and I guess the where did that was to say, look, this is my version of events, this is my view of what happened to us. I still wonder who's story, who it is, is it mine, is it Jake's, is it, and I guess it's the story of us ultimately. But I do wake up, definitely had periods and certainly in the first few days when it went out, which was like that feeling when you've slightly drunk too much. And the next day you think, what the hell did I say? You slightly

Starting point is 00:25:02 catch yourself, go, I can't believe I've done this. But ultimately it's been liberating and I feel a huge sense of relief. And I hope, my hope is, and I'm certainly feeling that that's starting to happen, is that it's reaching other people and it's making them feel less alone. Because I think one of the things that happens when your life suddenly doesn't follow this status quo, the way you perceive your narrative, it all falls apart, you feel very, very low. When it happened to me, I was looking for anything that the someone would articulate the terror and the fear and the isolation of that, and then how peculiar the

Starting point is 00:25:35 experiences when you have to try and persuade, you basically have to relearn and reconnect with someone who no longer recognizes you. How odd that was for me as a storyteller, but also as someone who's spent her whole life constructing odd that was for me as a storyteller, but also as someone who's spent her whole life constructing and observing and creating character. And suddenly I was having to kind of create the character of me again for Jacob. And what I came to realize more than anything,

Starting point is 00:25:56 and I talk about it in the book was, it wasn't that Jacob forgot me, it's that he forgot himself. And so the book is also about capturing about I hate myself and how myself and my children who were amazing bringing up two teenagers in the middle of this. I think we've all you know if you've had children they've got their own dramas going on. This was a drama that trying to protect them and give them some kind of childhood in the middle of it.

Starting point is 00:26:18 I think it's also about a huge kind of homage to them and how amazing they were really. You're answering so many of the questions I was going to ask you. But I thought, for the audience who's listening, you described it very well. I thought the book was very raw, showed very much your authenticity, your vulnerability throughout it. And when I started to read it, as we discussed before you came on, it read like I was reading your diary and then it switches about halfway through the book and the way that the story is told. But in the opening of the book, why did you say that you felt like a fraud,

Starting point is 00:26:59 uneducated, unbrilliant, trying not to be found out? I think because I'm often surrounded by glitching, interesting, intelligent people, I was an academic at school. I absolutely hated school from start to finish. I think one of the happiest days of my life was when I walked out of school. And so I always felt I was a gap in my education.

Starting point is 00:27:17 And then what I've realized is that in doing the work that I've done, I've kind of reeducated myself, I've read, I've looked, I've watched. But I invariably, there's the imposter syndrome. I mean, the irony for me is I battled it in post-acindrom my entire life and then when someone turns around and goes, yeah, you are an imposter, that was when I had to kind of own myself. I guess that's the other thing. There is a kind of gift and a grace out of this as awful as it was. The thing that said true was and the thing that I learned was that actually I did know myself and I really to, and this experience made me have to really know myself and believe

Starting point is 00:27:49 on myself, and reconnect with Jacob and say, look, I'm here and I'm worth it, and so are you. So I guess the weird thing is, people talk about being 50, and what's it like as a woman can be coming 50? You feel like you're fading anyway. I'd gone through this experience where Jacob's medical catastrophe, my illness, there is a fading, there is a plummling, there is a kind of feeling of depletion. I've had a mesectomy and I've had chemo, this massive break in our relationship and certainly this break in our family. I actually weirdly am starting to feel stronger and like I know myself more than I ever have and I I don't know if that would have

Starting point is 00:28:22 happened if I hadn't gone through this experience. I have felt like an imposter but I feel less like an imposter than I ever have felt like now. I think that will be a true response to that question, you know. Okay, well, thank you for being so vulnerable with that answer. And just so the audience can understand a little bit more, I'm going to just go through a little bit of the story and maybe you can correct me if I have something wrong. You initially find Jacob. You then take him to a hospital where they cannot determine what's going on with him and his condition is getting worse. So after a few days, he sent to London's National Hospital for Neurology and Neurosurgery, which is one of the most prominent

Starting point is 00:29:06 for neurology and neurosurgery, which is one of the most prominent neurological centers in the world. So you have all these experts around him, yet they're doing EEGs and MRIs and everything and cannot determine at this point what's going on, but his condition is worsening. So they put him in an induced coma for seven months, and then he ends up spending, I think it was 443 days in the hospital. I can't even imagine what that was like. I can, from a small standpoint of, I've had a number of concussions and brain injuries myself, and none of those tests could show what was going on with me, either, which it turns out I had

Starting point is 00:29:47 post-concussion syndrome, but it's interesting with those many experts that it took literally months and months for them to kind of come to the conclusion of this inflammation of his autoimmune system that was going on. Yeah, I mean, I think it's very interesting. I think the consensus Jacob had an underlying condition of multiple cirrhosis. He was very high functioning. He'd been diagnosed six, seven years by the time his collapse happened. He was on the last phase of a very successful drugs trial.

Starting point is 00:30:17 In the March 2018, so three months before Jacob collapsed, the drug was withdrawn voluntarily by the pharmaceutical company because there was concern that there had been 12 people collapsing on it. Subsequently, they believe another nine people collapsed, as a result of that withdrawal and the consensus that Jacob is probably one of those 10. This was a very unusual set of circumstances. The triggers for Jake's collapse were very, took a long time for them to unpick. And the other thing is the brain is despite the amazing amount of medical research, despite the fact that we were incredibly fortunate

Starting point is 00:30:51 that we lived 20 minutes away from one of the leading. So as you say, neurosurgical hospitals in the world, it's, there are still complexities about the brain and you know, no one could fully understand what how Jacob would be. Certainly this delusion that Jacob woke up with was very unusual. It's very rare. I think there's very rare to see it post an acquired brain injury.

Starting point is 00:31:11 What had happened to Jake as opposed to a traumatic brain injury? I.e. you're talking about a concussion or a fall or a car accident of some kind. And actually it's often seen in the context of dementia. They had their research papers on that, but actually this was very unusual. And so, Jay, I think none of us really knew the outcome except the outcome of how long he'd been in hospital as you said, seven months in an induced coma.

Starting point is 00:31:33 He was 15 months in total in hospital. When he first came out, he had up to no agency in an inability to initiate anything, and that would include getting up to get himself a glass of water. And then he had a paralysis on the left side of his body. He was very, very silent. Most of you might say he came back 5-10% of himself on a good day. It's taken years to get back to where Jacob is now throughout that.

Starting point is 00:31:53 I am still trying to understand as is Jacob what his new brain is like. And I think you do have to think about it in terms of your new brain because I think there is, and we know what it's like when we have a slip disc and we know what it's like when we break a leg. But actually when we have a brain injury of some kind, be that acquired or traumatic, it's so complex the brain. And that is also part of its secret, it's so complex, it also has unbelievable powers of recovery. And the fact that the brain can re-root around damage,

Starting point is 00:32:21 the fact that the brain can relearn how to live with shifts and changes in behaviour and both cognitively and physically and psychiatrically is extraordinary. And I think Jacob and watching Jacob over the last three and a half, nearly four years, it'll be four years, next week that Jacob collapsed. I think none of us could believe the recoveries he's made, but I'd also say I'm still marveling and trying to understand the brain and I'm still trying to understand who Jacob is now and I think we all are. Even the doctors in consultants are still kind of, you can't even understand the nature of Enkephalitis itself actually which of which there

Starting point is 00:32:54 is quite a lot of research and I think some of the reading I have done that in particular around a lot of us, all of us, acts is works, it's really fascinating which is the way that the brain can shut down. And then, that it can, as Jacob's neuroside psychiatrist described it, as it can come back online. And that's the best way to describe what's happened to Jacob. Specifically in the last six months, is that Jacob has come back online in a way that none of us could have hoped for. And I think we're all kind of punching the air. And because he's back to 80, 90% of himself now. And I would have not been able to say that this time last year. Well, my girlfriend is a primary care provider now, but she spent eight years as an ICU nurse. And one of the things she told me is you would be shocked at the injuries that she has seen and the brain able to repair itself. And she said some of these things, it can take years for it to sort itself out. But she's seen people

Starting point is 00:33:54 have just tremendous neurological issues and then come out of these commas. And then she'll see him a year, 18 months later. And the person is almost back to being normal, if not completely normal. So you're right, it is an incredible science. And one, we seem to be learning more and more about, especially now through the use of DTI MRIs and other things, one that they can see more into the mind and our understanding more things every day. I wanted to give the audience kind of just a glimpse of in chapter five, you write about how you were just constantly trembling. And I think this was

Starting point is 00:34:31 right when he was coming out of the coma. He still couldn't talk because he had the the tracheal in, but you met a friend for coffee and they asked you, what's your worst fear? So with all this going on, how did you respond to that person? People often do give their advice, and it made me reflect on advice and questions that I may have asked people in the past and how sensitive you are at that time. I think she said, what's your worst fear that he doesn't survive or that he doesn't remember you?

Starting point is 00:35:00 And I remember thinking, well, that's such a cliche, that's such a bad film trope, that will never happen. You're not remembering me. I guess one of the things, one of the most shocking things about the book and one of the things I struggle about saying out loud, I could write it down, but saying out loud was certainly there were moments with Jacob where I really questioned whether it was right that he had survived, whether I could cope,

Starting point is 00:35:19 whether he could cope, whether it was fair that he had, certainly at the time of the beginning, and one of the things that I'm so grateful is that he has survived. But I definitely think it's complex, and I think people sometimes say terrible things to you, and you feel like smacking them in the mouths was so angry. But I've come to realise that people are often projecting and saying their own fears. And if anything, what I take away from this experience is that I underestimated the power of recovery and I shut down people's hope sometimes because it was almost too painful to hope. And I think if I was going to have that again, I would say keep that horizon as well, I just you can and believe you can go as far as you can

Starting point is 00:35:55 because every case is so individual and so personal that you just never know. So I certainly think when that person said that to me, I felt a real conflict of emotions, you know. No, I would agree. Fortunately, she is still here with us, but my younger sister was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer a couple of years ago. And it went from pretty much overnight stage one to stage four. They were telling her to start preparing,

Starting point is 00:36:23 you're going to have a couple of months. I remember being around her and she was still doing high intensity training and didn't just look to be sick. I said, Caroline, I think you can beat this. So she ended up changing her diet, changing a number of other things, reducing her stress levels and taking some homeopathic things. And all of a sudden, they could find that the cancer was still in her pancreas, but they couldn't find it anywhere else. And the doctors were just amazed. And they were able to perform the whip-up surgery, and she's

Starting point is 00:36:58 been cancer-free. But I think it's a great story that you never understand going into this, how the body and possibly heal itself. The other thing, you change your attitude towards mortality. I think one of the outs that I take from this, and I have to actively work at this. But I have to say to myself, if this is all I get of my life, it's enough. And that sounds like defeat us, but it's not, it's the opposite. If anything, it's about absolutely committing to the now. And I really try and work on that. I try not to have the kind of same level of average. I certainly have ambition for my children and for the life that I have got. I agree with you. I think you start to see that actually people, there is that phrase,

Starting point is 00:37:38 health as well. And it's only when you have your health challenged in that way that you realize that actually that's really what it comes back down to is looking after yourself and trying to keep us alive as you can. You can't underestimate the fight to want to stay alive is how powerful that is, is a force. Jacob had a lot of help, a lot of therapies, and we were very privileged. I was lucky that I could work to make the money to pay

Starting point is 00:37:58 for those, and I think, but that's the other thing, it's an economic thing as well. You need everything you can get to help you, but you really need good healthcare. That's the key thing as well. You need everything you can get to help you, but you really need good healthcare. That's the key thing as well. Well, absolutely. Well, I was going to ask you, maybe as a follow-on to that, how have your goals changed now that you've been through your own health scare and this whole ordeal? As opposed, it's that feeling of it, there's that phrase, when you stop running, it comes

Starting point is 00:38:23 to you. There's a sort of truth in that, I think, the nature of the career, the world, it can be geared towards productions and deadlines and awards and the goals get all placed in the wrong place. All of that stuff is fun, all the kind of the highs and the high fives when you get a film made or you meet an amazing star or you find yourself a glitter event. Those are all really fun and they're the fun things in life. But actually, they're not fun things in life, but actually they're not the things that you're if you're on your deathbed you'll think about. You'll think about the quality of the relationships you're in, you'll think about the immediate and the moment. All of these phrases like sound like something you could print on a t-shirt and so I don't mean to

Starting point is 00:38:57 sound trite, but I try and enjoy the now and I guess that's what it's made me really focus on is the now. And then I guess the other thing is I guess that's what it's made be really focused on is the now. And then I guess the other thing is I'm so grateful that I was a storyteller because I felt like all the skills I had as a storyteller have helped me understand my own narrative. I've used those to find former midst of chaos as a kid where I would make up stories. I didn't realize how invaluable and what a great methodology it would be for life because really when we tell ourselves stories, we're really trying to process and understand something and so the act of writing for me was a way for me to understand and find it process and find acceptability in it. That's

Starting point is 00:39:35 been also the takeaway which is nothing is lost when you choose to reflect and try and see the kind of shape of what you're going through, because it really helps me understand the next sort of, the next act of it really. And I'm grateful that I have a next act, I guess. So it certainly sounds like none of you have a next act. You're gonna have an amazing next chapter. So in chapter seven, you introduced a mantra that super heroes coming many forms.

Starting point is 00:40:05 Why was that so important to you? The tiny acts of kindness, the tiny acts of bravery, the tiny acts of support, the tiny super hero acts, as I called them, were everywhere. They were the neighbor who left me. The lasagna were of jar of honey on my frontal step. There was my sister who was amazing who I work with, who planted bulbs so that they came out on my birthday. There was my kids who was amazing who I work with who planted bulbs so that

Starting point is 00:40:25 they came out on my birthday. There was my kids, the kindness of my kids. There was the oncologists and the very unassuming mesectomy surgeon that you would pass on the street and you wouldn't notice. Those people saved my life. They saved my life. And so I guess I rethought what a superhero is. When we had the global pandemic and that hit, then it became the buzz word. You know, the new superheroes were our national health service. The new superheroes have been the responders and the medics and the nurses and the consultants and doctors who've got us through and those who found vaccine. Those are the superheroes. To me, those the superheroes, you know, I love Marvel. I love Marvel, you know, I love superhero films, but actually it made me

Starting point is 00:41:02 see the kind of moments of magic in my day to day life. And moments of miracle and genuine moments where I could have hope and belief. And because there's nothing more frightening where you see someone you love intently and who you're dependent on hang between life and death. But then when your own life is in question, you have to find magic everywhere. And one of the things that I talk about in the book is that a friend gave me this sound therapy session with this woman, and although parts of it were quite kind of mystic, actually what came out of it was this beautiful idea

Starting point is 00:41:34 that there are moments of magic anywhere. If you see a feather, it's an angel feather. If you see a bee, it's a symbol of empowerment. And so I realized it was the way you decode and see the world. And I find that very useful. So that's where the superhero thing came from really is that I suddenly realized I had to lean into the most normal looking people and the most domestic elements

Starting point is 00:41:53 in my life to survive. Really, that was how I survived it. Yeah, that everyday superheroes all around you. Yeah, exactly. One of the areas I wanted to go into a little bit more was I've had a number of guests recently on the show who have talked about chronic loneliness. And I'm hearing this come up so many times with people,

Starting point is 00:42:14 it really seems to be between that and hopelessness, something that is plaguing so many millions of people right now. I think with COVID, but just with all the societal issues that we've got going on, the war, etc. I know you touched on the loneliness that you felt in the book. What I was hoping you might be able to do is give the audience your advice if someone has reached this point of feeling this loneliness. What are some steps that they can take to get themselves out of it and to start feeling the joy or happiness in their life again?

Starting point is 00:42:51 When I was a child, I would often talk to myself. If I had a furia with a friend or a difficulty with a teacher, I would often play out the conversation. It was my way of communicating with myself. And I realized now it's because I just needed to hear another voice. And I guess one of the things that I have learnt from this is that communication and the telling of your story be that telling someone how you feel that day or communicating with those close to you. People show up. I inherently believe in the good in the world. We're living at a time where we know that there are terrible things happening in the world. I talk about them in the book. I didn't

Starting point is 00:43:22 only have a kind of profound meditation on my own life, but I was looking at the world as a whole. And so I think if you've been through the global pandemic, life has been filtered through Zoom and computers and many of us have been separated from our family. Actually, those means of connection, be it a conversation or be it just a text message or a WhatsApp, they kept me going. The amount of people, the very forms of communication that we have now, we talk about kindness and the importance and the digital age, and whilst I know that there is cruelty, we know there's cruelty out there, it's another form of letter writing, text messages and emails and social media and direct messaging, and so I think if you can communicate and find

Starting point is 00:44:01 communicate, and then I suppose the other thing is find your superheroes, find those people that you can trust and rely on and they don't have to be the people. They come in surprising form. They come in that taxi driver who listens as you drive him. They come in that barista who gives you that extra cross-sum when you're having a bad day. They come in your dog. I mean, my relationship with my dog

Starting point is 00:44:18 with became incredibly important as a running partner. It was another heartbeat. It was unconditional love and it got me out. I guess I would say to anyone, try and find a way to communicate and express yourself. The reason why I was drawn to the arts, it's the profession of expression, and that's what I love. And so I think my worst times when I could have been much more isolated than I was, writing save me, being able to talk to my family and my friends and my children was absolutely vital. And I guess talking to Jacob, which is what the book is also, I'm throughout the book,

Starting point is 00:44:48 I'm talking to him when I couldn't talk to him in person, I wrote the book as a way to talk to him and that made me feel less alone. So find, that's how I found ways of feeling less alone. Okay. And if you could go back until you're younger self, what happens in the future, what would you say? Don't look. I would say it's not if it's when stuff happens to you and it's not what knocks you down, it's what picks you up and trusts that you will have the strength in yourself and people around you who will help you pick you up.

Starting point is 00:45:23 And you know, one of the things I found, one of the emotions I felt when this happened to us as a family, I felt humiliation. And I'm, I'm almost ashamed, I felt humiliation because I now think none of us are so big or bold that we can't get knocked down and none of us are so big and bold that we can't ask for help. And so I guess I'd say to myself, you're going to get knocked down, but you're also going to get picked up again. So trust in that, I guess I'd say that to myself. Okay, and I always ask this question of authors, if you wanted a reader to get one thing out of the book, or hope they would find by reading it, what would it be? Hope. Hope you're not alone. Hope that there can be joy again. Hope that you can survive

Starting point is 00:46:11 something truly left-of-field. Hope that you can turn the world back upside down the right way again. I guess that's what I would hope for. Hope. Well, as you have brought up all along, we take so many things in life for granted until they change. And then you realize oftentimes how good you've had it even at times when you don't think it's good. But we're all going to experience times of trauma or times of things just not going according to the way we imagine things are going to be, but I think as you've put it, it's what defines you as how you come out of it and how it changes your outlook and what you do with it then. Well, Abby, if someone in the audience would like to learn more about you, obviously when you Google your name and you come up all over the place, but what are some of the best ways to stay connected with you?

Starting point is 00:47:09 Well, try and watch my work. I mean, the split, it's coming out obviously at the end of June in the States on BBC America and my films, that's another way. I'm newly attached to social media, which has been a very, quite an enlightening, enjoyable thing for me at the moment. I do a little bit of social media now, but I guess I think watching my work and reading my work is probably the best way to kind of understand what I've gone through and read the book. That will be the key thing. Yes, and I will make sure that that's plastered everywhere in the show now. So, Abby, thank you so much for coming on the Passion Struck podcast. It was such an honor for me to have you, and thank you so much for being vulnerable with this story. Because it's stories like this that people need to hear to see

Starting point is 00:47:51 that there are ways that you can get through these life moments that kind of come out of nowhere. And in your case, impacting both you and your husband. Thank you. Well, thanks for having me on the show. I really appreciate it. I thoroughly enjoyed that interview with Abby Morgan. I wanted to thank Abby and Harper Collins

Starting point is 00:48:10 for the pleasure and honor of interviewing her. Links to all things Abby will be in the show notes at passionstruck.com. Please use website links if you purchase any of the books from our guests. The proceeds from those sales go to support everything that we do here on the show and allow it to be free for our listeners.

Starting point is 00:48:28 Videos are at YouTube at JohnArmiles where we now have over 340 for you to consume. Advertisers, deals and discount codes are all in one convenient place at passionstruck.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. I am at JohnArmiles, both at Twitter and Instagram, and you can also find me and LinkedIn. If you want to know how I book all these amazing guests, it's because of my network. Go out there and build your network before you need it, and the majority of the guests on the show not only subscribe to it, but provide their suggestions

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Starting point is 00:49:23 That Warrior Rule Travel Commues is very different than that Hollywood image. That's not the image that we have in our travel communities. Somebody who has dedicated their life to service. And it wasn't about glory. It was about what they could contribute to their tribe. And we sometimes have a misconception that the Warrior is all about, they get it right every time.

Starting point is 00:49:46 They make no mistakes. They don't feel pain. They don't feel fear, which is all baloney. I mean, that's garbage. It gets us into trouble when we over-romanticize that role. The fee for this show is that you share it with friends or family members when you find something interesting. If you know someone who's dealing with trauma or mental health issues,

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Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Abi Morgan on the Importance of Hope, Everyday Superheroes, and the Moments of Magic EP 168

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