Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Admiral James Stavridis on the Bold Decision to Risk It All EP 140

Starting point is 00:00:00 coming up next on the Passion Struct podcast. And I think over time, geopolitics 101 here, if you think of the West over here, the US, European Union, Japan, the democracies of the world, and over here, you think of the big authoritarian countries, notably China and Russia, who's in the middle? It's India. And the degree to which we pull India, and India is willing to come to this democratic side, and I think they will be. That'll be the degree to which we can create a counter-vailing structure to these big authoritarian nations.

Starting point is 00:00:41 So the role of India, my view, in the 21st century will be very seminal to our security and our economics given the United States and global. Welcome to PassionStruct. Hi, I'm your host, John Armiles. And on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips, and guidance of the world's most inspiring people and turn their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you.

Starting point is 00:01:05 Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself. If you're new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays. We have long form interviews the rest of the week with guest-ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries, and athletes. Now, let's go out there and become PassionStruck. Hello everyone and welcome back to episode 140 of PassionStruck, recently ranked one of the top 50 most inspirational podcasts in the world. Thank you to each and every one of you who comes back weekly. Listen and learn had a live better, be better and impact the world.

Starting point is 00:01:53 In case you missed my episodes from last week, they featured Jordan Harbinger, the host of the Jordan Harbinger show who is one of my absolute podcast idols. And he is known for his great networking and interviewing skills. Gordon Harbinger show, who is one of my absolute podcast idols. And he is known for his great networking and interviewing skills. In our interview, we discuss why he values legacy over currency. I also got the opportunity to interview Crystal Rose, who is a podcast host, serial entrepreneur and transformational coach.

Starting point is 00:02:22 She and I discuss how she overcame severe trauma, the importance of self-love and the best places to start practicing it. We also discussed how do you bounce back from burnout. And in case you missed my solo episode, it was on how our belief systems shape our lives. And later this week, we have the incredible story of Keegan Gill, a former Navy fighter pilot who ejected out of his F-18 doing almost Mach 1 in a complete dive. And he tells the heroine story of what happened his rescue and his recovery. Now, let's talk about our incredible guest today, Admiral James Stavridis. We are officially launching his new book, which releases today to risk it all. Nine conflicts and the crucible of the decision.

Starting point is 00:03:16 Admiral Stavridis is retired for star Navy Admiral. He is currently vice chair, Global Affairs and Managing Director of the Carlisle Group, which is a global investment firm. Previously, he served five years as the 12th Dean of the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tuffs University. He led the NATO Alliance in Global Operations from 2009 to 2013 as the 16th Supreme Allied Commander. He also served as Commander, U.S. Southern Command, with responsibility for all military operations

Starting point is 00:03:52 in Latin America from 2006 to 2009. He earned more than 50 medals, including 28 from foreign nations in his 37 year military career. And in today's discussion, we go deep into his new book, To Risk It All, and how decisions shape our lives. We examined some of the most difficult decisions he made himself during his long military career. Why the actions of Commander Ernest Evans were so inspirational for him and how his actions altered the course of World War II in the Pacific.

Starting point is 00:04:26 How Stephen Decatur's audacity daring and ambition enabled his success and triple-like, but why his pride cost him his life and forever change Navy regulations. We discuss the topic of trusting our gut and how unchecked ambition and aggression got Admiral Bill Halsey into trouble during World War II. What we can learn from the Pueblo incident, why Admiral Michelle Howard is highlighted in both his books, Sailing to North and to Risk It All, the common characteristics he found and all the great leaders that he writes about.

Starting point is 00:05:00 What really stands out for him throughout his career, his advice for the next generation of leaders and so much more. Thank you for choosing PassionStruck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life now. Let that journey begin. So excited today to welcome Admiral James Severiress to the Passion Start podcast. Welcome Admiral. John, it's great to be with you, especially as a fellow U.S. Naval Academy graduate, Go Navy.

Starting point is 00:05:37 Go Navy. I am so humbled that you're using this podcast to help launch your book and today is the day it's coming out. So I wanted to start there. You wrote to risk it all and it's all about the power of decision making, especially in times of crisis that the leaders you profile faced. Why did you decide to write on that topic? Well, John, I've written 12 books previously and one really focused on leadership and another one really focused on character. And I think those are two different things. Leadership obviously is the ability to move people to to lead them in a direction you want them to go. It's an external capability. Character is what's in your heart.

Starting point is 00:06:29 And both of those are vitally important. But having written those two books earlier in my career, I thought, what's kind of the third leg of the stool in terms of what we can accomplish in the world. You need leadership, you need character, you also need to understand risk, risk and reward. And so I've always been fascinated with this idea of risk and how we assess risk, how we make the biggest decisions in our lives. And so as a result, I started to look at some leaders of character who were then placed in situations

Starting point is 00:07:16 of grave risk and tried to analyze how they responded, why they responded as they did. I simply think this idea of when are you willing, as the title of the book says, when are you willing to risk it all? Is a very important question for all of us to grapple with before we get in the situation where we are risking it all. That's how I came to write on the topic. For me, it was a great read because similar to sailing through North, you profiled many leaders that I myself studied at the Naval Academy. It was nice to go back and relearn about Amaral Halsey and Steve Indicator, John Paul Jones,

Starting point is 00:08:02 of course. But what struck me is one of the people you focused on in this book was someone I had never heard about. And that is, Headie Officer, Dory Miller. I was hoping you could talk about why did you end up using his story? And I understand now when aircraft carrier is being named after him, but why pick him is one of the subjects?

Starting point is 00:08:24 I picked him because he personifies this idea of facing a moment that you kind of never thought was coming when you are forced to quite literally risk it all. So the story of Dory Miller is he grows up in Texas, he's African-American. He's everybody loves him. He's smart. He's a great boxer.

Starting point is 00:08:50 He's very athletic. But opportunities are limited. Let's face it in the 1930s in Texas for a black person. So he decides, as many folks do, of all races to join the military and try and grasp that kind of opportunity. Unfortunately, in those days in the Navy, African Americans were limited in the roles in which they could serve. And so, Dory Miller was a, what we would call today, a mess specialist,

Starting point is 00:09:21 someone who worked in the gallery, who did the cleaning, who did the cooking, who was almost a valet to the officers. He literally was someone who shined the shoes of officers. So, hardly an exalted position. He's assigned on a battleship. He gets to be pretty well known on the battleship because he's a championship level boxer. And in those days, every Navy ship had a boxing team. And there were competitions across the Pacific fleet. And so Dory Miller gets to be well-known. He's well-liked, as he always has been throughout his life. Here comes the moment of real decision for Dory Miller, Pearl Harbor, 7 December, 1941. Japanese Japanese zeros flying overhead, bombing missions, battleship row that row of battleships sees many of them sunk to the bottom, including USS

Starting point is 00:10:17 Arizona. Dory Miller is a mess specialist. His general quarter station is to simply go down into the officer's wardrobe and make sure there's coffee made and food is available. However, as General Quarter goes, and as the ship is under massive attack and he senses everything going on, Dory Miller decides to risk it all. He goes top side, heads up to the bridge, he's looking for the captain in the ship for whom he works. He finds the captain grievously wounded. He tries to help a number of other people evacuate the captain. He decides to, in effect, man in anti-aircraft gun.

Starting point is 00:11:04 He really has no literal idea about how to do fact, man in anti-aircraft gun, he really has no literal idea about how to do it, but it's a pretty simple weapon that he can get himself into. Point, as he says later, it's just like shooting ducks. You shoot out ahead of where the targets are. Dory Miller probably shoots down a Japanese Zero. It's a remarkable story of Curry Junderfire in the book to risk it all. We focus in on Dory Miller and what drove him to make those kind of choices. And I think in essence it was his sense of

Starting point is 00:11:38 duty, loyalty, patriotism, and above all his love of his shipmates on that ship. It's often said that in battle, the opposite of fear is not courage. In battle, the opposite of fear is love. It's love for your fellow soldiers and sailors and airmen and Marines and Coast Guardsmen who stand shoulder to shoulder with you in true combat. Dory Miller found that moment and to kind of conclude his story, he was awarded a Navy Cross in retrospect. In my view, he should have been awarded a Medal of Honor. Finally, we have decided, we the nation have decided to honor him by naming a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier after him.

Starting point is 00:12:31 Think of that. He'll be alongside Abraham Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, and George Washington, and now it'll be USS Dory Miller. Pretty good story. And lastly, if you wanna get a visual sense of what it was like, go watch the movie Pearl Harbor. Pretty good movie, the most recent one that came out with Ben Affleck in it as the star, but Cuba Gooding Jr. African American actor, a terrific one, steals the show,

Starting point is 00:13:03 essentially portraying the story of Dory Miller. So there's a lot to like about Dory Miller and he shows us the importance of personal courage, under fire, love of your shipmates, an entirely admirable decision to risk it all. On the same theme, I love that you profiled Admiral Michelle Howard because you talk about her in Salentree North, but you really go into death about what made her decisive actions so important. And the reason that she was the first African American female to command a warship and the first to put on four stars. So I was hoping you'd also share her story and why you decided to cover her in both books.

Starting point is 00:13:50 Yeah, Michelle is somebody I've known since she was a lieutenant commander. She's always been regarded as a rising star in the Navy. I like her a lot also because I'm five feet five inches tall and I tower over Michelle Howard. Finally, I get to lot also because I'm five feet five inches tall and I tower over Michelle Howard. Finally, I get to be around someone I'm actually taller than. Michelle's maybe five feet tall, but she's a bundle of energy. She acted in the masqueraders at the Naval Academy, our alumni shared connection. And she's always been a superstar in our surface warfare community where I served. As you point out, she's the first African American woman to command a warship. She just keeps hitting these firsts throughout her career. And the story into risk at all of Michelle Howard is when she

Starting point is 00:14:39 has just put on her first star. So she's a very junior admiral and she's assigned to an amphibious readiness group operating off the coast of Africa. And this is a few years ago when we were emmeshed in a battle against piracy on the east coast of Africa. So she's out there in her flagship. When you kind of would expect to have a few missions where you go after some pirates, but this is not high-end combat operations. A good job for her to kind of settle and get her feet on the ground and understand her command. Well, there is a piracy act in which a major merchant ship is captured by Somali pirates. If you've seen the movie Captain Phillips

Starting point is 00:15:28 where Tom Hanks plays the captain of that unlucky ship, it's a terrific film. And so Michelle, as a one star, is the on scene commander. And so she has destroyer is working for her. She's embarked on a big deck M-Fim. But the point here is that she is hitting a real moment of truth in her career. Because these hostage rescue situations are incredibly risky. I faced that choice myself as a four-star officer at U.S. Southern Command trying to rescue three American hostages from the

Starting point is 00:16:05 FARC, the terrorist group in the jungle. I found it very, very daunting to find the inner courage to pull the trigger on a rescue operation because that you're putting the lives of those hostages on the line when you send the seals after them, as you well know, having operated with the seals as a cryptology officer yourself. So Michelle, as a brand new one star, is wrestling with the impact of taking the lives of Captain Phillips and in particular him, because he at this point has now been isolated by these Somali pirates.

Starting point is 00:16:42 He's on a small dinghy that's kind of one of their ships rescue boats. So Michelle sends her top destroyer into the waters right next to where the captain is being held. She authorizes a seal team to come aboard. The seal team sets up on the fan tail with their high powered rifles. They're tracking those pirates. It's an extraordinary film to watch too because you really get a feel for how good those SEAL sniper teams are. And here's the moment of truth from Michelle Howard.

Starting point is 00:17:17 She has got to have the moral courage to say to the captain of that destroyer, I am going to give you authority to fire on these pirates. That's a scary thing to do. I can tell you, as an admiral who's made that decision many times in my career, to delegate that kind of huge decision, which has life and death implications, of course, for the hostages, for the hostage takers, and really has, you know, is going to have a significant impact on your career and what happens. Michelle Howard didn't flinch at all. She risked it all, delegated that authority, had watched everything unfold, was confident in her ship captain, was confident in those seals.

Starting point is 00:18:10 And when the seals got the shot that they wanted, at a moment when they felt Captain Phillips himself was at personal risk, they took that shot successfully. They killed the pirates, Captain Phillips was rescued. I mean, this is really one of the happy endings. It stems from a moment of real risk on the part of Michelle Howard. I give her a lot of credit for the've got two vessels pitching, especially one as small as the one that the captain was in. So remarkable story and what an impact she made during her career. One of the things I wanted to ask you about is, and maybe I'll use this as an example. As a cryptology officer, I spent a tour doing direct support and we would go on cruisers, aircraft areas, etc. and I happened to be on the destroyer of the USS kid. And when I would join these ships, I would volunteer to be part of the ship's crew. And I would stand watch whether that be navigating the ship or in CIC, which is more often than not where they chose to use me.

Starting point is 00:19:28 But one time I was CIC watch officer, and we were at that point in the Balkans conflict, and two OSA gunships light us up. We declare general quarters as you might guess. And then the captain comes down and because I was the intelligence person on board, he asked me, what do you think I should do? What is their intent? And in your book, you talk about how time slows down. And for me, although my answer, I had to probably give within 10 to 15 seconds, it felt to me like an hour, because I had so many things going through my head.

Starting point is 00:20:07 Can you talk about this concept of how time slows down that you cover in the book? I think for any decision maker, one of the pressures on you is time. And so often, you have to make these decisions in a split second. And so one thing I've observed both personally and from conversations with others,

Starting point is 00:20:31 like you just shared with the audience that for good decision makers, if you have spent time beforehand, thinking about consequences, thinking about events. You can dive into that memory bank and everything is right there. And you're able to kind of tease out the right answer. And again, as you just said, it feels like all of a sudden things are going in slow motion. And yet you know they're happening almost instantaneously. Let me give you another example of that from the book. And you've picked two decisions to risk at all that turned out very, very well. Let me give you one that doesn't turn out as well,

Starting point is 00:21:20 in which time unfortunately did not slow down sufficiently for the officer concerned. And this is then Lieutenant Commander Lloyd Booker who was the commanding officer of the ill-fated intelligence gathering ship, the USS Pueblo. And I know as a former intelligence cryptology officer, his story is very near to your heart, John. And of course, here he's on a small cryptographic vessel.

Starting point is 00:21:51 It's got a module built into it that collects intelligence, and it goes into very close proximity to enemy shores. And in the case of Lloyd Booker and the USS Pueblo, he takes the ship very near internal waters of North Korea. Unfortunately for him, the North Koreans decided to come out, surround his ship, and demand its surrender. Their contention, disproven by the United States, in my view, definitively, was that the ship was in internal waters. These ships are very well attuned to exactly where they are,

Starting point is 00:22:35 and there's no doubt in anybody's mind other than the North Koreans that Bukhaw was in international waters. But unfortunately, and this is a failing for the United States Navy, we had insufficient immediate response capability available. So here's Booker in a small ship with a few dozen sailors on it. It's the dead of winter. And now suddenly he's surrounded by Korean gun boats who say in essence, surrender your ship immediately or we will destroy

Starting point is 00:23:06 it and kill everyone in your crew. That's about as hard a decision, I think, as anybody is ever going to face. And for Lloyd Booker, events start happening very quickly. Obviously, he's sending messages out to the United States Navy to command authorities. He's ordered destruction of all the cryptological gear on the ship. Again, you know this scenario so well. You've lived it yourself. He's burning what he can. He's throwing weighted bags over the side.

Starting point is 00:23:37 His crew is smashing up the equipment. The North Koreans are closing closer and closer. They're firing shots into the ship. At one point, Lloyd Booc are himself is wounded with shrapnel. So he's got a physical, terrible wound, very sensitive part of his body. It's as dark as scenarios you can affect.

Starting point is 00:23:58 And yet constantly what he's doing is calculating. He's thinking, how much time do I have? How much more can I destroy before they lose patience and absolutely sink my ship? And I think for Lloyd Booker and you hear it in his story, it's called My Story by Lloyd Booker. It's a marvelous memoir of his life career. And really all about that moment off of North Korea. For him time slows down, but he runs out of time. And so, faced with the choice of returning fire with all they have are small arms, even the 50 cowl on the front of the gun, his frozen shot, it's got tarps all around it. Anybody went up to try and unleash the gun

Starting point is 00:24:48 would have been cut down instantly. There's really no effective option to return fire. And so he surrenders his ship. Now, that, of course, is in the US Navy's world, the wrong thing to do in the sense that we never give up the ship. Personally, I think Lloyd Booker made the right decision. There are many who have said, nope, he should have gone down fighting even if that means firing his small arms till they ran out of ammo, standing, waiting with fire axes when people tried to come aboard the ship

Starting point is 00:25:25 would have been a useless gesture in my view. However, Booker was then court martialed, but fortunately, again, in my view, he was acquitted at the court martial. But the bottom line here in terms of this conversation is here's someone who had to risk it all, who saved his crew, but then was court-martialed by the US Navy.

Starting point is 00:25:52 A very tough ending, and again, it gets back to, sometimes time can slow down for you, but you still run out of time, you have to make a decision. It didn't turn out well for Lloyd Booger. We will be right back to my interview with Admiral Stavridis. This year, one of my goals is to try to revive my Spanish

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Starting point is 00:27:25 Back to my interview with Admiral Stavridis. I think that's a great cautionary tale, and you had a couple of them in there, including Admiral Halsey, who many say made one of the biggest blunders in the Pacific, and that luckily turned out better than it could have. And I wanted to discuss perhaps the conclusion of the book, but through the first person that you introduce, which was Medal of Honor winner Commodore Ernest Evans, because you end the book by saying

Starting point is 00:27:53 that there are a number of traits of app decision-makers, such as gathering all the intelligence, understanding the timeline, considering all the possible outcomes. But as you look at considering all the possible outcomes. But as you look at his story, is there one of those or two of them that you think mattered the most? Let's just say a word about Commander Evans, really a remarkable figure. It comes from Native American family.

Starting point is 00:28:20 He's three quarters Native American. He goes to the US Naval Academy and, works his way up in the surface Navy, and becomes a destroyer captain. And he's got an assignment at the Battle of Lady Golf down to the south of Halsey, who's chasing away to the north, impetuous, and frankly foolishly pursuing what he thinks is the main thrust when Commander Evans is part of a tiny, tiny flotilla of destroyers assigned to cover the main landing force. And of course that landing force is absolutely naked to a Japanese attack and Japanese heavy ships, battleships, cruisers are flowing into the battle area and this leads Evans and his fellow destroyer captains. It's an amazing story. They charge with these destroyers, these light ships, they charge this massive Japanese battle force. The Japanese can't believe that's happening.

Starting point is 00:29:27 The book you want to read here is the last stand of the Tin Can Sailors. Great title, right? By James Hornfisher. Yeah, it's an extraordinary book. And it tells the story of these destroyers. It's handful of destroyers. The Japanese think, well, this can't be just a bunch of destroyers charging us. Clearly, there's a mean American battle fleet back there. So they shoot up these destroyers. They sink the Evans, they sink a number of others, a couple others survive and go limping away. But the Japanese

Starting point is 00:30:06 Admiral is shaken. He just can't imagine that a bunch of destroyers would attack the massive main thrust of the Japanese battle line. So he turns around. And that's what saves this American landing force. I mean, casualties would have been tens of thousands, if not over 100,000 could have been killed down there. It's really a remarkable moment. So that's the story of Commander Evans who tragically does not survive. He's badly wounded on the bridge of the ship.

Starting point is 00:30:40 Ship is sinking. He's last seen in the water, trying to rally his crew. He's been wounded in three places. The odds are high that he simply died and slipped into the waves. By the way, just a year ago, the USS Evans was found and recovered. One of the deepest, not recovered. We didn't bring it up, but we found it. We put artificial capability on it to examine it. We know it's the USS7s. We know it's his ship, so it's been found. So Captain Evans destroyer has been found

Starting point is 00:31:19 and it's a remarkable end to his story. So the quality of him, I think, is pretty evident. In this case, it's fortune favors the bold. It is the courage and a moment to charge, to go for the threat. And this is really, at the end of the day, what we ought to cherish about Commander Evans or Nostevans, and what we ought to cherish about our military is that we are men and women who will rise to the occasion. We will go toward the danger. And in so doing in this case, because he risked it all, he effectively changed the course of this battle of Lady Gulf and and was significant part, a central part of driving away this Japanese battle force.

Starting point is 00:32:09 Remarkable storage, the quality there is, sometimes you just got the South China Sea, one of the leaders that you profiled in Sandling True North was Zheng Hu if the audience doesn't know is one of the most famous admirals of all time and probably the most famous Chinese admiral. But I'm going to use it as a segue because you cover him, but then in your book, which I raised here at 2034, basically the significance of his exploits that he did centuries ago has a major political ramification to us today. And I thought maybe this would be a good way for you

Starting point is 00:32:58 to talk about not only the Admiral, because the aircraft carrier in the book is named after him, the Chinese use. Why is this going to be such a huge issue for the world going forward? Yeah, Admiral Shanghai was, as you say, correctly, a Chinese admiral. He's sailing in the 1400s, decades before Christopher Columbus. China has built, at this this point massive wooden worships. Among the largest wooden sailing structures ever built, these things are well over 500

Starting point is 00:33:33 feet. They have crews of 400. Just contrast that with Christopher Columbus in 1492, discovers America in three relatively tiny ships. The Nina and the Pintan, the Santa Maria, which are maybe a tenth the size of the kind of ships that Jungha is sailing it. And as he sails the waters going from the Southeast coast of China through the South China Sea, and then on into the Indian Ocean, and there are indications that these voyages went as far as the coasts of Africa, the coast of East Africa, along these routes, the Chinese claim and in particular in the South China Sea, John, they use these as the basis for historical claims of territorial sovereignty. That, hey, we sailed these waters, we claimed these waters, our fleets applied these waters,

Starting point is 00:34:34 look at Admiral Zheng Ha. And so that becomes the basis in today's world in 2022 of claims by China that they own the South China Sea. They're not gonna let go of those claims. And just to orient everybody, South China Sea vast body of water, it's half the size of the continental United States of America. It's full of hydrocarbons, 40%, 40% of the world's shipping passes

Starting point is 00:35:06 through it. It is ringed by US friends and partners and allies. It would be a very, very important geopolitical win for China to claim the South China Sea. So in the book, 2034, a novel of the next World War. The book starts, obviously in the year 2034, with a confrontation in the South China Sea between an American flotilla, three destroyers led by Commodore Sarah Hunt. She comes upon a small Chinese trawler merchant ship, not quite sure what it is. And through a series of miscalculations on both sides, China and the United States end up with a significant combat experience in that moment, a big incident.

Starting point is 00:35:58 Sarah Hunt ships are sunk. The Chinese take some hits. And then that miscalculation, John, allows the nations to lose control of the latter of escalation. And over time, we see bigger and bigger fleets contending, we see tactical nuclear weapons that see, eventually we see nuclear weapons are sure. It's a war that neither nation intended nor wanted, but it begins really in the 1400s with the voyages of Zheng Ha. That's why in the novel 2034, we named one of the

Starting point is 00:36:36 Chinese aircraft carriers after him. By the way, Zheng Ha is a revered figure in China. Whenever I would go to China and I would visit as a senior naval officer and would go to a banquet, there would always be toasts to Admiral Junkha. So what did I do? I would certainly participate in those toast and then I would offer a toast to the perfect American admiral and that would be Admiral Chester Nimitz, also the subject of sailing through North. I thought the other interesting thing in the book was the significance of how you placed India into the action, because historically I wouldn't have thought of India as a superpower, especially militarily, but I do know that they're vastly changing their culture. So I was interested in that aspect as well.

Starting point is 00:37:31 By 10, lots and lots of big international security gatherings from Davos to the Munich Security Conference to Shangri-La, to the Mount Fuji Dialogs, everywhere I go at these conferences. We talk about United States, we talk about European Union, we talk about Russia, we talk about China. We never talk about India. India is like this kind of invisible nation somehow, yet it has the second largest population

Starting point is 00:38:03 in the world and it will overtake China by the middle of this century in terms of population. It's also a democracy, a very vibrant one. 800 million people voted in the last Indian election. Think about that for a minute. We have a lot of trouble getting 100 million people to turn out and vote here in the United States. 800 million people voted in the last Indian elections of vibrant democracy. It is also rich in

Starting point is 00:38:34 geographic sense in that it is, dominates the Indian Ocean. The last really unexploded massive body of water. Over time, we're going to find the Indian Ocean is its own treasure trove of resources. And then finally, India has always had this, in the modern era, post-World War II, after colonization, has had this kind of middle ground position between the West and the Soviet Union in the days of the Cold War, kind of between the industrialized world and the communist world economically. However, as we head into this 21st century, increasingly you see India move its alignment and beginning to take bigger and more important positions

Starting point is 00:39:28 because of its demographics, because it's so young, because it has its own traditions, its connections with the West, its powerful training capability, the potential of India is higher than perhaps any other nation. So having said all that in the novel 2034, we hypothesized that India has morphed over the next 15 years into one with much more military capability, much more of a stake in the international system. Whether India hits that point as early as 2034,

Starting point is 00:40:09 I think is actually unlikely. It'll probably, in reality, be a point India hits later in the decade, John. But we pulled it back to 2034 to make a point about India's potential in this century. And I think over time, geopolitics 101 here, if you think of the West over here, the US, European Union, Japan, the democracies of the world,

Starting point is 00:40:37 and over here, you think of the big authoritarian countries, notably China and Russia. Who's in the middle? It's India. And the degree to which we pull India, and India is willing to come to this democratic side. And I think they will be. That'll be the degree to which we can create a countervailing

Starting point is 00:41:00 structure to these big authoritarian nations. So the role of India, my view, in the 21st century, will be very seminal to our security and our economics here in the United States and globally. Thank you for covering that. I have been going to India since 2002. I've probably been there 20 something times, primarily because we did a lot of outsourcing of technology, but when I was the CIO at Dell, we had over 30,000 employees in India. I have tons of friends over there, and they are one of the most kind and intelligent populations that I think we have on earth. Yeah, and I think also just one other point about 2034, one of the central characters,

Starting point is 00:41:41 and in many ways the most admirable, although they're all both admirable and flawed, but one of the central characters is Indian-American, Sandy Chaudhury, and Sun Deep is his formal name, and he's a graduate of the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy, where I was Dean, got my own PhD, see where this is going. Sandy, Sun Deep is one of the deputy national security advisors in the book, and a very important Sandeep is one of the deputy national security advisors in the book, and a very important character. He's one of the moral voices, one of the voices of conscience in the book, and he also then becomes a conduit

Starting point is 00:42:17 to the Indians. And again, it's also making the point about how important immigration is to the United States. How this Indian-American, like our Greek-Americans, our Mexican-Americans, our Chinese-Americans, are all part of our path to the larger world. I think that's a strength for the United States. We try to illustrate that in the character of Sandy Chaudhury, Deputy National Security Advisor.

Starting point is 00:42:46 I wanted to ask one last question about sailing through North, and then I was going to ask you a couple of questions off topic from the books. But one of my favorite sections of the whole book was the conclusion. One, you're very vulnerable there, but you also list out character traits, and you have creativity as the most important one. And I wanted to ask why did you pick that? And for the audience, I'll show a copy of the book so I know the cover as well. Thanks so much for asking, John. And as you know, sailing through North is about 10 naval officers, each of whom kind of illustrates some aspect of character. And I think creativity is at the heart of our character, in the sense that if we are

Starting point is 00:43:35 fearful and we are conservative and we don't want change and we kind of shy away from the new and the unknown. It is a character trait to be able to overcome that. That's what drives our creativity. And at the end of the day, all that human species has accomplished derives from a willingness to change, to discover the new.

Starting point is 00:44:03 And yeah, we get lots of things wrong, and we have many flaws in our character, but the degree to which we are creative and willing to embrace what's new in many ways is the key to how we can continue to advance in the world. So yes, creativity, pretty central. I've been, I think, consciously have tried to be a very creative individual in my life and in my career in the Navy.

Starting point is 00:44:27 And I want to close with a point here on that, which is that if you are creative, you will fail often. You'll fail more often than not. But the trick is to continue to have that spirit of innovation to try the new and over time your successes will outweigh the more numerous failures in terms of impact. During my time at the Naval Academy, as you know, you get to hear some pretty amazing commencement speeches. I think my class had maybe one of the best commencement speeches ever written, which was by Senator John McCain. And I understand you just did a commencement speech for Citadel, and I was wondering what you shared with them. Yeah, I've been very lucky in terms of commencement speeches.

Starting point is 00:45:18 I've been the graduation speaker, commencement speaker at the Merchant Marine Academy at King's Point at the California Maritime Academy in in in Maryland, California, at the University of Miami at Norwich, the another military academy in Vermont, and at another probably four or five schools. So my point is I've done a lot of commencement speeches, but the one I just did at the Citadel was very moving to me, principally because the school has so much tradition, yet it's trying hard to change aspects of its culture,

Starting point is 00:45:59 and I think doing it very successfully. It's in Charleston, South Carolina. It's produced many top flight military leaders for the United States. And of course, many very successful business people, teachers, doctors, lawyers, particularly in South Carolina, but really nationally. So, in honor to do the speech, and what I talked to them about, John is risk. I use some of the themes that are in my new book to risk it all. And in particular, I challenge the entire

Starting point is 00:46:31 student body there to think ahead, to read about others who are placed in risky situations and then put yourself into that simulator of a book, either nonfiction or fiction. Imagine what you would have done on the deck of the Bonhomb Rishard, if you were John Paul Jones. What would you have done if you were Dory Miller down in the wardrobe on board USS West Virginia? So I challenged them to think through what might lie ahead for them.

Starting point is 00:47:03 And it could be a very military moment like the ones I just described, but it could be a more prosaic setting. You're in a mall, you hear gunshots off to the right. People are screaming and running. What are you gonna do? What if your children are with you? What if your spouses with you?

Starting point is 00:47:24 What are you gonna do? What if you are taken hostage and you see a hostage taker starting to raise a gun toward another hostage and you have freedom of movement? What do you do? What do you do in an instant when you're given a decision, maybe not as life and death as the ones we just talked about, but one that would have enormous impact on you personally. You're told by an employer, get with this program or you're fired. What's your answer? You got to reach inside yourself to find that answer. You got to have character and leadership, but by the same token, you've got to prepare and think about those moments because on a beautiful spring day in Charleston, South Carolina, in your dress whites at the graduation from Citadel, you may or may not think the moment like that is coming for you. In my experience, it comes for almost everybody sooner or later. You've got to make a decision. You got to know whether you want to risk it all and to prepare yourself for that

Starting point is 00:48:41 ahead of time is the essence of the message that I've passed to the Citadel. Thank you for sharing that. I can't wait to watch it and learn the lessons that you shared with them because I think it's a great message. As I was researching you, sir, I found out that you and I have some common background. We both were pretty good tennis players back in our days before the academy. I was not a squash player like you, but I also learned that we both had Marine Corps fathers. My father, like yours, served both in Korea and Vietnam. He

Starting point is 00:49:19 was a Marine raider, and I think your father and Infantry. But I wanted to ask you, since I grew up with the Marine Corps father, what were some of the things that he has passed down to you that have mattered the most? Thanks for asking about my dad, Colonel George Stavreitas, infantry officer enlisted just after Pearl Harbor. Did not see combat in the Second World War

Starting point is 00:49:48 because he scored high on a test and the Marine Corps sent him to Cornell University to get a commission. So he was commissioned and ready to go to combat. War ends, but he stays on. And so like your father, he fought in the Korean War. He was a platoon commander, a company commander. And then he fought in the war in Vietnam,

Starting point is 00:50:13 where he commanded a reinforced Marine battalion in charge of security and perimeter protection at Don尼, about 1,000 Marines. He was a wonderful father. And, you know, I went to Quantico High School while we were stationed at Quantico. And frankly, I went off to the Naval Academy, like many young men and women, convinced I wanted to follow the profession of a parent, in my case, my father. I wanted to be a marine infantry officer. For me, that changed on what we call Youngster Cruz,

Starting point is 00:50:51 which is after your first year, your plea beer, you go out to see, to see the fleet. I got sent to San Diego. I was on a beautiful ship. We got underway late in the day, and we're sailing into the west as the sun was setting. I was up on the bridge and I just suddenly I was like St. Paul on the road to Damascus, you know, the scales fell from before my eyes and I wanted to be a sailor.

Starting point is 00:51:18 I went back and I told my dad about it and here's my point. I think my dad would have loved it if I'd been a marine infantry officer like he was John, but he was gracious, he was thoughtful, he was kind, he was the kind of dad we all hope we can be and I hope I've been to my two daughters, which is to say, been to my two daughters, which is to say immediately supportive of this new ambition on the part of young midshipman staff readers. I think he probably thought I had made a bad decision right up to the point where I pinned on my first star 23 years later. But he was a wonderful dad. He passed away a few years ago and I'll tell you, John, I hope your dad is still with you. But if he's not, I've got you're like me. Every Sunday, I would call my dad through my whole life.

Starting point is 00:52:13 And every Sunday, I still kind of reach for that phone and stop and think about my father and all that he taught me. But above all, he taught me to be a good father myself. Thank you, and I'm sorry for your loss. I'm lucky that my father just turned 84 and is beaten strong. Well, sir, I've got time for one last question for you, and it's a question that you have asked your superiors over the course of your career, and that is what really stands out to you in the course of your career. And that is what really stands out to you in the course of your career, Anna.

Starting point is 00:52:48 Let me start by saying the things that I liked about my career. And then I'll tell you the one thing that I truly loved that stands out. Things I liked. I liked being a mariner. I liked going to see. I liked wearing a uniform. I was always proud of putting on a uniform and

Starting point is 00:53:09 particularly when I would interact with civilians, I liked wearing the cloth of my nation. I liked the adventure of sailing around the world. When you add up all the days, I've, when you add up all the days I've spent at sea out of sight of land, it's somewhere around nine and a half years. Most folks go on a cruise for four days or a week, nine and a half years, I have at sea on the deep ocean out of sight of land. I like that a lot. But John, the thing that I loved, I loved mentoring young men and women. I loved the ability to talk to a sailor when I was a young division officer or a commander when I was a Commodore or a very senior captain. When I was a three star or a four star, I've always loved the idea of talking to someone and sharing with them my own experiences and helping shape, you know, the gorgeous trajectory of their lives in the best way that I can. And one thing I'm really proud of is putting so many very young people into commissioning programs and helping them find their way to

Starting point is 00:54:25 enapolis or into the various programs that lead to commissions. And it's obviously a wonderful life and career to be an enlisted sailor and become a master chief and a command master chief, but I have always been very proud and happy when I see a young person take a commission, especially at that stage of life. So I think that's what I've loved the most. And I suppose that's why when I finished up 37 years in the Navy, and I said everything I just said to you to Bob Gates, one of my great mentors, former Secretary of Defense, Secretary Gates said to me, Jim, you ought to be an educator next. And that's why I went to be the dean

Starting point is 00:55:09 of the Fletcher School of Long diplomacy to help guide and mentor and teach the next generation of foreign policy experts in the United States. So I've loved that opportunity for mentorship and leadership, and that's what stands out to me about my career, John. Thank you, sir. I'm gonna just end it in this way as I was prepping for this.

Starting point is 00:55:30 I asked some officers who served under you, some angles to hit and all of them, especially our mutual friend, Ranganroll Rob Chadwip said, it was always his mentorship that has mattered so much and had such an impact. So I think you have done exactly as you had set out to do. Well, sir, thank you so much for joining us today

Starting point is 00:55:54 and I highly encourage my audience to read all your books but I especially like your newest novel. Thank you so much, John. It's a pleasure to be with you. And as the saying goes, thanks for your service from anapolis to the world of cryptology to the world of special forces and your ongoing commitment to sharing big ideas that matter on the passion struck podcast, pleasure to be on with you. Thank you very much, Admiral. What an incredible interview that was with Admiral Stavriatus, and I would like to thank

Starting point is 00:56:27 him and Penguin Random House for giving me the opportunity to launch his new book. If you enjoyed today's interview with Admiral Stavriatus and you're interested in hearing others I'm doing with veterans, we have some great ones coming up, including my interview with Keegan Gill, the former F-18 pilot I mentioned during the intro, Vice Admiral Sandy Stowe's, who made history when she became the first female superintendent of the Coast Guard Academy, making her the first female

Starting point is 00:56:56 to ever be a superintendent of a US service academy. We also have coming up, rear Admiral Danelle Barrett, who would discuss her secrets to mentorship, and also former Navy Ranger Jesse Gold, who discusses how he is helping fellow veterans overcome past trauma and post-traumatic stress disorder. And if you're new to the show or you would just like to introduce it to a friend or family member, we now have episode starter packs both on our website and Spotify. These are collections of your favorite episodes organized by Topic,

Starting point is 00:57:28 which gives any new listener a great way to get acquainted to everything that we do here on the show. Just go to passionstruck.com slash starter packs to get started. And if there is a person that you would like to see me interview, like those I've mentioned in the episode today, or there's a topic that you would like me to unpack in my momentum Friday solo episode. You can reach out to us at momentum Friday at passionstruck.com. Thank you so much for all your positive support. All the five star ratings you keep giving the show. It means so much to us as we're trying to grow this global movement of helping people create their best

Starting point is 00:58:05 life possible. Now, go out there yourself and live life passion struck. Thank you so much for joining us. The purpose of our show is to make passion go viral. And we do that by sharing with you the knowledge and skills that you need to unlock your hidden potential. If you want to hear more, please subscribe to the PassionStrike podcast on Spotify, iTunes, Stitcher or wherever you listen to your podcast ad. And if you absolutely love this episode, we'd appreciate a five-star rating on iTunes and you sharing it with three of your most group-minded friends so they can post it as well to their social accounts and help

Starting point is 00:58:45 us grow our passion-struck community. If you'd like to learn more about the show and our mission, you can go to passionstruck.com where you can sign up for our newsletter, look at our tools, and also download the show notes for today's episode. Additionally, you can listen to us every Tuesday and Friday, or even more of inspiring content. And remember, make a choice, work hard, and step into your sharp edges. Thank you again for joining us. you

Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Admiral James Stavridis on the Bold Decision to Risk It All EP 140

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