Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Amanda Slavin On How to Change Lives by Inspiring Change EP 54

Episode Date: August 17, 2021

Has anyone ever inspired you to change your life in a significant way that made you healthier, happier, or more fulfilled? Inspiration is powerful, but it isn’t easy. In this Passion Struck podcast, Amanda Slavin discusses the life-altering moment that changed her life and how to change lives by inspiring change in others. Like this? Please subscribe, and join me on my new platform for peak performance, life coaching, self-improvement, and personal growth: https://passionstruck.com/ Link for Amanda Slavin's Ted Talk featured in the podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCkYTz_lg3M How do you change lives by inspiring change? Thank you for Watching the Passion Struck podcast. In this episode, John R Miles and Amanda Slavin discuss her path from educator to author, speaker, and brand builder. We unpack why so many people are dissatisfied with their jobs and the cause of the low engagement we are seeing across all areas of the world. Amanda uses the Seventh Level Engagement Framework to discuss what is causing this disengagement and how she is changing lives today by inspiring change. We discuss the difference that positive inspiration can make in a person’s life and how motherhood has changed her perspectives on life and career.  She also discusses her friendship with the Zappos founder Tony Hsieh and the positive influence he made in her life. New Interviews with the World's GREATEST high achievers will be posted every Tuesday with a Momentum Friday inspirational message! How to Change Lives by Inspiring Change Show Notes 0:00 Show Intro and Ted Talk 5:01 The 3 P's to finding purpose 13:33 What she learned from teaching Gen Zers 17:35 How motherhood changed her outlook 23:27 Why are so many disengaged? 30:19 How do you get engagement back? 35:57 Dealing with a hostile work environment 40:00 Her experience with Tony Hsieh, the Zappos former CEO 45:17 How do leaders become more engaged? 49:36 Create your own seventh level statement 54:50 Applying yourself to serve others 58:38 What she eliminated to make her more productive ENGAGE WITH AMANDA SLAVIN Amanda Slavin, a former Forbes 30 Under 30 honoree, is chairperson and Co-founder of CatalystCreativ, an award-winning community events agency specializing in audience engagement. Using the Seventh Level Engagement Framework from her best-selling book, The Seventh Level, she has advised multiple startups including HubSpot, Kiddie Kredit, Speakfully, SEEN, MyVillage, Official, and many more as well as a strategic angel investor and venture partner (OzoneX). Links *catalystcreativ.com (Company Website) *the-seventhlevel.com (Company Website) *amandaslavin.com (Personal Website) https://www.instagram.com/ajslavin/ https://twitter.com/AJSlavin ENGAGE WITH JOHN R. MILES * Subscribe to my channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/JohnRMiles * Leave a comment, 5-star rating (please!) * Support me: https://johnrmiles.com * Twitter: https://twitter.com/Milesjohnr * Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Johnrmiles.c0m​. * Medium: https://medium.com/@JohnRMiles​ * Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/john_r_miles JOHN R. MILES * https://johnrmiles.com/my-story/ * Guides: https://johnrmiles.com/blog/ * Coaching: https://passionstruck.com/coaching/ * Speaking: https://johnrmiles.com/speaking-business-transformation/ * Gear: https://www.zazzle.com/store/passion_struck PASSION STRUCK *Subscribe to Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-passion-struck-podcast/id1553279283 *Website: https://passionstruck.com/ *About: https://passionstruck.com/about-passionstruck-johnrmiles/ *Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/passion_struck_podcast *LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/passionstruck *Blog: https://passionstruck.com/blog/  

I thought I was Carrie Redshaw when I was 25 years old. I was running around New York City. I was essentially living the dream. And to me, the dream was working 10 hour days, seven days a week, going out every single night, dating all of the wrong people. I had tons of friends that barely even knew me. To me, that's what life looked like to put myself first.

When in reality, I realized at 25, you think you know everything at 25, by the way, you know everything. What I realized is that that's actually what it looked like to put myself last. And what that meant for me was that, by dating all of the wrong men, this is Christian bail from American Psycho,

similar types of men, by dating all of the wrong men, by having this lifestyle that hurt my heart and my feet, I was wearing six inch heels, I actually realized that I was putting myself last. And something to note, this lifestyle wasn't always who I was. I had actually been a teacher. I had worked with children for 10 years. I was so passionate about working with children around being around children. I have a, I've got a master's in education, curriculum and instruction. I worked in numerous classrooms.

I was a camp counselor. Anything I could do to work with children I did. And so it was a very quick transition from 10 years of working with children to 10 hour days of drinking, working, and dating all of the wrong people. And I have to say, you know, with dating all of the wrong people and looking back to that time of my life, I really didn't think I deserved to be with the wrong people. And I have to say, you know, with dating all of the wrong people and looking back to that time of my life,

I really didn't think I deserved to be with the right person. I didn't think that I deserved to have what I wanted. And I think a lot of women are put into these situations where we're told we're not good enough. And I was climbing up the corporate ladder and I was working in an industry of hospitality and nightlife. That was primarily men. And I was about to become a partner in the organization.

But something felt off. And something slowed me down just enough to realize that I wasn't going down the trajectory that I thought was my path. Welcome visionaries, creators, innovators, entrepreneurs, leaders, and growth seekers of all types to the Passion Struck podcast. Hi, I'm John Miles, a peak performance coach, multi industry CEO, Navy veteran, and entrepreneur on a mission to make Passion Go viral for millions worldwide. I do so by sharing with you an inspirational message in interviewing eye achievers from all walks of life to unlock their secrets and lessons to become an action-struck. The purpose of our show is to serve you the listener by giving you

tips, tasks and activities. You can use to achieve peak performance and for to a passion driven life you have always wanted to have. Now let's become PassionStrike. Welcome to episode 54 of the PassionStrike podcast. And I wanted to give a shout out to you, our fans. Thank you for continuing to support the podcast and our mission of making passion go viral for millions worldwide. And I'm going to start today's episode with two quotes

from a person who absolutely has passion. Oprah Winfrey. She said, passion is energy. Feel the power that comes from focusing on something that excites you. And she also said, forget about the fast lane, if you really want to fly, harness your power to your passion. Honor your calling, everyone has one. Trust your heart and success will come to you. Such a great lead in to our episode today with Amanda Slaven. Amanda is a Forbes 30 under 30 on a re, chairperson and co-founder of Catalyst Creative, which is an award-winning community events agency specializing in audience engagement using the seventh level of engagement framework. From her best-selling book, The Seventh Level,

Amanda has advised countless startups including HubSpot, Kitty Credit, Speakfully, Scene, My Village Official, and many more, as well as being an angel investor and venture partner at Ozone Eps. And in today's episode, we discussed her best selling book, the seventh level, how you can apply it both your professional life and your personal life. That pivotal moment where she found her passion

and how it changed her life and career trajectory. The changes that motherhood have brought to her passion journey, the three Ps that are key to living your passion and why 85% of the world's full-time workers are disengaged in their careers and her secrets to improving that engagement. All that and so much more. An incredible interview today, you absolutely don't want to

miss. Now, let's become PassionStruck. I'm so excited today to have Amanda Slaven on the Passion Struck Podcast. Amanda, welcome to the show. Thank you. Excited to be here. Well, I always liked to start out the episodes by having the listener understand your background.

And I happened to catch a TED Talk that you did on passion. I think you called it the three P's. And I would encourage, and I'll put it in the show notes for any of the listeners who want to catch that, that they'll have a link to the show, but what struck me is I have a 17 year old daughter. And when she was 16, and you mentioned being a 16 year old and at being a turning point for you in that episode as well, or in that TED talk, But for her, she had COVID going on all around her. And I know for many of her friends and her, it changed everything because it changed their social interactions, it changed what activities she was going to do

for her, she happened to be in two bands, and they were no longer able to do that, she couldn't do sports. And so I saw a girl completely change in front of my eyes because this reality suddenly changed for her. And I think it did for you too when you were 16. And so I thought that might be a good backdrop for the listeners to the beginning of your story. Yeah, I think what was probably different for 16-year-olds in this situation is that it was simultaneously while they were all going through it together,

it was also a very isolating experience. So they didn't feel like they were going through it together. In my case, it was kind of a very individual experience versus this time in history where everyone is going to have a story that they will be able to say, this was a catalyst for me to transform my life in some way, whether at the time it was better good, it changed my life.

So when I was 16, while it might not have been everyone experiencing this very big moment of uncertainty together, I did have a lot of uncertainty because I grew up in a very small town and just by the nature of life and work and things that were going on with my parents, parents we we work and forced to move if you will and I was very much a big fish in a small small pond and I knew everyone and I was kind of a walking yearbook and this was before social media, I knew everything about everyone. I was the ultimate connector. It was the 6,000 people in the town in a very small, very small high school. You know, it's 150 people in my class. I knew every single person in every single grade and I truly knew like who was dating who, what their favorite sport was, what their favorite food is, what their vehicle was like, I, my mom said I was faced with before Facebook. And then when, you know, a huge part of my identity was that I was a social butterfly and that I did know everyone.

And also by nature, I think that I thought that success by being such a people person was popularity. That was something that was unbelievably important to me at the time because it was something that, again, I was so good at people. And so that meant if I was good at people that I had to be popular. And when I ended up moving, I ended up moving three times from the time I was 16 as a sophomore until I was a senior in high school. It really shifted my identity and my perception of myself and what was important to me because I ended up, you know, in a very different situation with 35,000 people in a town and no one knowing me from whole in the wall and it was a town that was very much focused on, you know, kind of, I mean, they were very much experimental. They were doing,

they were definitely doing like, drugs and they were doing, they were drinking at Young Regency. It was a different type of experience that I was used to. And I became very sad in that town and in that life because I felt like I didn't fit in. No one knew me. I didn't know myself. And I really changed as a part of that. And it was only three months of my life in that life because I felt like I didn't fit in. No one knew me. I didn't know myself. And I really changed as a part of that. And it was only three months of my life in that second town. But it was even more pivotal than I think the third town because I changed myself in the process.

And I also kind of lost myself a little bit. It was just, it shook me because for 16 years of my life, here I was in one way, in one sense of self of like I know everyone, I'm popular, everyone loves me, I'm deeply connected, you know, and now it was, I don't know anyone, I have no grounding under me and I have to kind of start completely over. So, and again, there was no social media, so it wasn't like moving, you could keep in touch with your old friends and you have this identity that follows you and everyone kind of knows you.

It was like, here you go. Start from scratch, you're a nobody now. And then what ended up happening was, I changed myself completely, changed what I wore, changed what I read, changed what I listened to, changed everything about me to fit in. And I still didn't really fit in. And then I moved again because of my dad's work.

And he was trying to figure out kind of who he might, now that I'm a parent, I'm a new parent, I see my parents were kind of just doing the best they could in trying to figure out what was best for them. And for our family, and I was a 16 year old that was like, this is so unfair, how dare you, this is all about me, and that was best for me. And I want to stay with my friends.

And you know, in that third town, what ended up happening was I wore Birkenstocks. Now Birkenstocks are cool. The back of that Birkenstocks were like more of like a hippie style. That was kind of the second town's vibe. And so I wore Birkenstocks to this next school. And when I arrived, people started making fun of me. And my mom told me I wrote this letter to myself that said, you know, if it doesn't actually matter what anyone else thinks about me, it matters what I think about myself. And I'm no longer going to change for anyone else.

And I kept wearing those Berkins Docs, which are now cool. So I guess I was a trendsetter in a lot of ways. But I totally shifted what was important to me in that school. You know, I really started to prioritize schoolwork. I started to build relationships with my teachers in a way that I really had it before because I was so focused on building relationships with my peers.

And I graduated with a 4.0 and I ended up, one of the teachers in that school really went out to bat for me and fought for me to win this award as like, you know, a scholastic award at the end of the year, even though I hadn't been there all four years, because of how much I applied myself to learn about not just again, who liked what and who liked you, but about the subjects that were important to, you know, in terms of education. And so that shifted my entire life. And it wasn't necessarily, I think that it's been a lesson I've had to continually learn because since then,

I've probably moved myself. I'm not exaggerating, maybe like before COVID, 12 times, post COVID, maybe 25 times. And I've had to really stay grounded within my own self. And I think post COVID I learned, which we can go into at a later conversation. But I again learned that home is within you. And you really have to figure out how to anchor yourself within yourself or you will fly away. So.

Yeah, well, interesting. You've brought up Birkenstocks because I happened to see an article recently that said that this is the summer of, what are those things called? I just kind of, I lost. Crocs. Yes. The summer of Crocs and I'm like, oh my God, how things come around.

My girlfriends been telling me it's like the summer of 50s bathing suits too. So it's interesting and bell bonoms. It's interesting how things come around again and again. But speaking of that and going back in time, you brought up something that's interesting and that is, you know, it's we're growing up and we're kids, you know, I hate to say it, but most of us are very selfish in our own head. And, you know, I thought it was pretty interesting how you brought up what your father was going through now

that you're looking at it through an adult lens. Because when you're a kid, you don't see necessarily the struggles or anything else that your parents are going through because you kind of put this horror around them as if they're perfect, they're all knowing, they're strong-willed, and we as parents try to shield our kids from that as well.

But I thought it was a good thing to maybe just touch on for a second because many of the listeners and watchers are actually genziers who are kind of coming on. And I think it's important for them to kind of understand that distinction as they're interacting with their parents because it might give them a different commonality and how they could approach or talk to their parents if they're having issues,

whether it's professional or something else. Yeah, I once went to a life coach that's, well, first of all, Gen Zers were my students. So they were my first grade students and my middle school students who are now in their 20s. My son is like an alpha. I don't even know what my son generation is. I mean, he's only 17 months,

but Gen Zers are like getting to the point where they're going into the workforce and their adults at this point. Like they're no longer children, they're no longer babies, right? They're they're entering into this young adulthood and they have already changed so much about what we have thought was the standard and then was normal. You know, they really have broken so many barriers that I think have limited us in terms of connection. But what I would say about, you know, I just had to kind of frame that in that. I don't necessarily like to, you know, stereotype, like millennials, Gen Z years, whatever, but

I will say just watching these kids grow up has been such an unbelievable honor to see the way that they think about everything differently. So they might have even different perspectives of relationships with parents, but for me as an older millennial and elder millennial, I think, you know, I did a lot of work on myself early on and I've done everything, you know, I've done traditional therapy, I've done healers and acupuncturists and astrologers and tarot cards. I mean, I've done a lot of work on myself. And one of the things I did was I had a life coach

and her actual focus was on, it was I think it was like how to stop being single. Like that was her role. And I was very much into trying to figure myself out for a relationship, which is always kind of, I think the first reason why we get involved in working on ourselves. And then we end up realizing that that's the problem to begin with, is that we should probably be putting ourselves first and not the other person.

Anyway, so what I learned, she gave me some, I just brought this up to my husband yesterday. She gave me such interesting advice, which is that when you are a child, you only see your parents as your parents, and the stories that you know of them before they were your parents are the stories that they choose to tell you. And so you have a very specific understanding of them based on a filtered perspective that they give to you. But in reality, they were full people before you came to the world and before they were parents. And it's something that I didn't fully grasp until I became a parent,

because I became a parent in my early 30s. And I was a full person before this baby came into the world. But now he sees me in a very specific way, which is as his mom. And when I'm around, I'm not, you know, Amanda and author, Amanda, a business owner, I'm an investor, I am his mom. And so I think what is really important,

I think it's, I think it's a two-way street. I think that we need to understand that children are, I mean, take one step kind of what I just said about my students being Gen Zers. I feel that children know so much more than adults because they are not programmed. As we're adults, we have all these blockers up, again, for connection and we have all these preconceived notions and we have all these fears and all these things that have kind of come up.

As children, we don't have that yet. We're innocent and open and we want to connect. It's how we are programmed as human beings. And so I think that our children know a lot more than we give them credit for. And I think it's important as parents that while we don't necessarily share all of the things that we're experiencing because they might not understand, we give them credit and we tell them, hey, you might be feeling this. And I want to hear what you're experiencing and what you're going through. And as children, I think it's important

that we recognize that our parents are only human beings and they're doing the best that they can at any given point of time. But their best in that moment might not be what you would do and what you think is best. They're just doing all that they can as a human that has lived a full life that has made mistakes and, you know, I think that it's having grace, compassion on both sides, you know, not

being too hard on your children and not being too hard on your parents. Yeah, it's what I can tell you definitely as a parent of two kids, when I had the kids, it certainly changed almost everything about how I viewed not only the world, but myself, and approached it because you kind of have to, because now you've got someone completely dependent on you, but it also put things in parties, in many ways for me, because you're right. Before you have the kids, you can be selfish with your time

because it's all about that period of your life leading up to it. But after it, it certainly puts a lot of other pressures and other things. So as you know, for 17 months removed from that, how has it changed things for you and have you had to make shifts and how you're pursuing your

passion now. Yeah, I think. So I was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes four years ago and that changed my life because that's normally the diabetes you get as a child and I was diagnosed as an adult. Yeah, so that was a very weird shocking experience for me and you know, speaking of kind of these moments that are catalysts in our lives, that was definitely one of them. I think that when I got pregnant, I've always kind of been this boundless person that's constantly like even in those experiences of again of moving and traveling. I'm always like, again, I'm boundless. And so I have just like in the drop of a hat, like gotten on a plane, traveled 100,000 miles a year, like said yes to, that's how I even started my business is I've just said yes and I've taken risks.

And I don't see them as risks. I'm like, what's next, what's next, what's next. When I got pregnant, it still didn't fully slow me down. I think that I was still in this pace of like, okay, I got this, I wrote my book when I was pregnant. I recorded my book when I was eight months pregnant. I kept going, but because I'm type one diabetic, I had to be induced.

That's something that you, when you just, because for the safety of you and the baby, just to make sure that you're being induced before you give birth naturally at 40 weeks. So for young kids, they're like, what is 38 weeks? 48 weeks?

I don't know about like nine and a half months. So I knew this impending date of like, when you're pregnant, you're like, I don't know when the baby's coming. It could be tomorrow. It could be three weeks for now. I guess I'll plan. But you know, it's like, who knows when my life's going to change? As opposed to when you are induced, you have a date that you're like, this is the day that I am going to have a baby, whether it's 24 hours or, you know, around that day. And so I had this, I had this feeling of like my life is going to change, my life is going to change, like at this date. A friend of mine sent me an article because I didn't have anything like postpartum depression where, you know, people women give birth and then hormonally,

they really deal with a lot of different experiences and feelings that they didn't even realize that they were going to but for me it wasn't about Postpartement it was this Again this identity feeling of like grieving a part of me and my friends that made this article a lot of this experience in this and it was This article about how when you have children you can never be carefree again And I thought that was the best way of framing it because it's so incredible. There's so many unbelievable, amazing things that come with being a parent, of course.

And there are things that we end up grieving, that we end up losing. And it's hard to put a feeling on that, a word on that. And we also don't even want to talk about that because we love our kids so much. We're like, no, it's amazing. It's great. And it's incredible. Of course, I want to be a parent forever.

But that feeling of not ever being carefree again, really for me, nailed that identity shift. And I think in terms of my passions, I love to travel more than most, than really anything. I just again, and I love to travel like quickly, sporadically, I've traveled by myself. I've been with my husband for eight years and I've gone to Tokyo and Australia and Scotland and I all by myself and I just go and eat and explore. Well, I've been with him. I'm like, see you later. I'm going to go to Tokyo for 10 days.

That definitely changed when having a baby. And I'd like to kind of without going too far into multiple stories of how my passions changed. You know, one was that again that sporadic carefree lifestyle. I still traveled, but things shifted and changed in the way that I've integrated travel and exploration into my life. And then the other is work. I am unbelievably passionate about my work. I could work 12 hours a day if I wanted to.

I had to change everything in anything around the way that I perceived work, the way that I showed up to work, and how I used my energy and time, which is the greatest resources that we have, even more than money. So those two things really shifted for me. Did you know that Forbes Magazine recently cited that 70% of individuals who do personal development masterminds and one-on-one coaching benefited from better work performance, increased communication skills, and overall better relationships. And we, at PassionStruck, are obsessed with self-development, coaching, and mentorship.

That is why we've created a free resource to help you unlock your hidden potential. Because people doing great things in business and life are just like you, only they've had a coach along the way, and we've got that covered too. Let us show you the systems and frameworks that we teach, both minded individuals, to help them step into their sharp edges, execute on their passion journeys and get predictable results time and time again. Go to passionstruck.com slash coaching right now and let's get igniting. Because I was going back to your TEDx talk as I was watching it, you started out by giving a couple

statistics, one on both of them on millennials and what they were doing with their time. But I recently came across the 2019 Gallup poll that shocked the heck out of me. It basically, they went out and used a sample size of somehow capturing the billion full time workers across the planet. And what they found was pretty startling. It found that out of that one billion workers, only 15% of them felt that they were engaged. Yeah. Which if you set it a different way, it's 85% of them need their jobs. Yes.

What's your theory on why that's happening? I, you know, you and I are a decade and part in age, and I've got my family on it, which I'll get into, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. Well, I use that study in my book, and I pretty much quote that study like every single day, so I love that you brought that up. I don't, I didn't even, I don't know if I, that's so random and awesome, because I don't even think I mentioned that in the talk. So I went to school to be a teacher. I have a master's in curriculum instruction and I wrote my thesis on engagement. So I created a framework of engagement to measure engagement and what it looked like in the classroom for those Gen Z years, if you will. And I then applied that into hospitality and marketing and in my company across, across lots and

lots and lots of different companies. And so I've studied engagement throughout my entire career. It's pretty much the through line. There's not much else that is a commonality between education, hospitality restaurants, marketing, branding, experiential, except for engagement for me. So it's amazing that again, I really don't even think that was that was set up. I think there's a lot of reasons for why we're disengaged. So I think one part of the problem is that we have two simple of a definition of disengagement and there are seven levels of engagement. So the seventh level, this is what my framework is called, it's called the seventh level of engagement. The seventh level is defined as a literate thinking. It's when your personal values and beliefs align with a message. And then the first level of engagement of these seven levels

is actually disengagement. So people don't know that. They think that this engagement is the opposite of engagement. It's not. It's level one. And for me, the first reason why I think that everyone is disengaged at work is because we don't even know what engage looks like.

So I'm without going into every single level and overwhelming everyone just at first, I do wanna just bring up one other, actually I'm gonna bring up two other levels. The third level of engagement is called frustrated engagement. We want to engage with something but we're distracted. And I'm gonna talk about that in a second.

But the fourth level of engagement is structured dependent engagement. It's called construction based engagement. When you ask someone to do it, something, and they do it. And so talking through all these levels, I think that there's something to say around frustrated engagement. We want to engage what we're distracted.

We have so many distractions that are keeping us from being able to be really engaged to work. And I think that we've seen that during COVID, and whether that is the tools that might be slack messages are coming up, and we don't necessarily know how to actually use slack or use Google Docs or use you know or when we're going to be using a son or trailer or all of the tools that are disposal that are distracting us through limiting us they're they're we're confused on when and how and what to

use fine those are kind of simplistic reasons why we might be disengaged but that's not really the reason the real reason is that we have so much going on in our lives and we're not allowed to bring our full selves into work. Now, I think things shifted during COVID, but all of the distractions that kept us whether it was, you know, sick family members or we were sick ourselves or someone lost a job or we were terrified of losing our jobs, we need to create spaces where we feel comfortable communicating those things that are getting in the way of us bringing our full selves to work and feel safe and feel seen and feel heard. And we also need work spaces and workplaces that actually create experiences that allow for us

to align our values and beliefs that stand for something more than just selling products. So that was a very, very big answer, but I can talk about this for like three hours, if you really wanted to. Well, we're gonna get more into it. So why don't we tackle a few of these things? So I have a book manuscript, and as you know, the publishing process is a bit. Yeah.

So in that, I did a lot of research as well. I didn't find that 2019 study until just recently, but I was looking at studies by Brookings Institute, Harvard Business Review, Forest, or Partner, Bill and Mill and the Gates organization. I looked at things coming out of the Fourth Industrial Revolution Task Force, and it basically was showing a very bleak past two decades, whereas if you really look at it across all Western civilization,

business mentality and entrepreneurship are dropping thrastically. And they're now just starting to plateau. And as I started getting more and more into it, common thing I would hear is it's student debt. Although, you know, I think student debt is definitely a culprit and luckily, for me, I didn't have any because I went to the Naval Academy, but, you know, I feel for those who do because the costs are so expensive, but as I started getting further into it, I came up with that I feel that we

are facing three contagions. And it's the contagions of the human mind, spirit, and ego, said otherwise, comfort, apathy, and showmanship. And I think those three things are a huge plague. And it's actually the reason I started this whole brand. But one of the things you brought up is a concept that I teach and it's concept called stop living a pinball life. And as you were talking about all these distractions, one day I was thinking about it through the lens of I love playing pinball. But the designers of the game make it so that you are completely distracted from actually playing the game. And it really takes trial and error to learn how to play it.

And you've really got to block a lot of those things that they throw at you because the keys are to understand the patterns that you have to hit and when you have to hit them. I think life is very much like that. We get so distracted, I call it by what we feel is urgent, that we often lose focus on what's important. I think that happens in our personal lives, and it definitely happens at work. And having been the CIO of a Fortune 50 company, I can tell you that some of these productivity tools that we implemented for me were anything but productive

because people were, I'll just give you a simple example. You know, I use a lot of fiber folks to get my stuff done. But if I would sit there all day, I mean they're constantly bombarding me with checking on this, checking on that, and that's what slack and some of these other tools were like. So I completely understand about your definitions. That's one form of disengagement. Another form of disengagement could be you simply don't like the culture of where you're at or could be you don't like your individual boss, which I think is a big one. If you're a person in that situation and for any one of those reasons or more, you don't feel

engaged, what do you think your options are? I mean, obviously one is quitting your job, but like how do you get at that engagement back? Yeah. So it's so interesting to use the word apathy because that's, that's how I define the, the opposite of engagement is apathy. And I say that if we don't, if we don't start striving for more deep, meaningful connection with the people we care about, which are the people we work with, the people that work for us and our customer, then we will create

apathetic customers. And when we really need to engage those customers around very important, extremely life-saving movements, like climate change, or something that again is really important to engage young people around, we're going to have apathetic customers. So I just, I wanted to pinpoint that word apathy. I think we are creating apathetic employees, apathetic customer. So I just I wanted to pinpoint that word apathy. I think we are creating apathetic employees, apathetic customers. I call employees internal customers, but yeah, it's extremely important that we think about engagement differently because engagement is the better off of meaningful connection and connection matters. So just had to say that. I think for someone who's not engaged, there's a lot of reasons why you might not be engaged. And that's why I

like these seven levels because those bottom three levels are reasons for why you might not be engaged. And that's why I like these seven levels because those bottom three levels are reasons for why you might not be engaged. And you might not be engaged because you're the wrong at level one, you're talking to the wrong people and you're talking to them in the wrong places. So I like to kind of put the ownership on the leader, but I also, if you're disengaged, then the whole entire framework is all around looking at yourself

and asking yourself, how can I be better? As opposed to blaming everyone else and as opposed to being like, well, my boss is just the worst communicator in the world and they don't care. Or my job is just horrible and the culture is terrible. I, the whole entire point of the framework is look at yourself and ask yourself what you can do differently. So at one, it's about, you know, if it is around the tools that people are using or the way

that people are communicating to you or the boundaries that have not been designed, it's about, you know, if it is around the tools that people are using or the way that people are communicating to you or the boundaries that have not been designed, it is very uncomfortable as a young person to have to speak to your leadership team about what works best for you to be productive, but I had to do it. I had to do it as 23-year-old only woman in a hospitality company. I was put in a situation in a position where I was not being set up for success and I was not learning and I was making a lot of mistakes and I had to sit my boss down at the time after it was not very, you know, it wasn't the most professional way that I did it because I didn't show up to work one day because I pretty much almost had a panic attack and a nervous breakdown because I was just overworking myself. I didn't know how to stand up for myself. It was during the recession. I was so scared of getting fired and and finally, I didn't show up to work. And my director of operations called me and said,

you can't do this because the phones are being unanswered. And they didn't know anything that all the work that I was doing. And so there were like, what is happening? Everything is falling apart because Amanda is not here. And so they called me in and I sat across from my boss who really didn't know me or trust me because it was only, I was only six months in the job, maybe even less. And I had to say to him, I am not being said, at first success, I am only saying this to you because I care about your company. And I am, you're, you're

entrusting your company with me. And you might think that I'm getting guidance, but I'm actually not. And so if you don't give me mentorship and help, and I'm going to run your company into the ground, and I don't even need to. It's because I'm not being supported properly. And so that shifted everything in that moment. They said, what do you need? I said, employees, like, well, we can't give you that, but we'll give you an intern. And so, and I, they said, what else do you know? I said, I need, I need leadership. I need mentorship. I need to know how to do certain things. And they ended up shifting the person that was supposed to be managing me that that wasn't really And I ended up working directly with my boss to learn the lessons and I need to learn so speak up for what you need to be productive in the lens in which

It's going to better the organization if it's the tools if it's the way that you're being communicated to that's one answer There's so many other reasons why you might be disengaged you might be confused by the messaging which is level two You might be distracted because things are going on in your life. You might again not align with the company culture. There's a lot of different ways of what is the step that you need to take in order to communicate how you can be more engaged. But what I will say to those who are disengaged and not necessarily leaders, I'm going to kind of speak to someone who's maybe their first job or they're a manager and they're working for someone they need to communicate to that person.

Always use the business within your messaging because when employees would come to me and say, I need a raise because this is how much money I need to make, it would be very disheartening to me because I would feel that they were only thinking about themselves. That's not a bad thing, by the way. They can, they have to think of their needs. No one else is going to think of your needs if you don't, and if you don't stand up for yourself. But what I would like, what I would have liked to see from them, and I had employees that did this in a really beautiful way, is this is what I need, and this is what the company needs, and this is how those two things align. In order for me to show

up as my best self for this organization, in order for me to be my most productive self, I need this, this, and this. And then it's the leaders job to say, well, this is how I can meet you. So identify what's going wrong and then come up with solutions that are right based on what's best for you and the organization. And if none of those things are possible, then you leave. Well, I guess it's almost like how do you deal with toxic friends? It's kind of like how do you deal with the toxic work environment?

You've got to, you got to understand what it is and then either shift or shift them for that job out of your life. I'll tell you seeing it from a from a different lens is I I had the opportunity to to go to lows around 2005 great great company one of one of the favorite companies I've ever worked for great company, one of one of the favorite companies I've ever worked for, because even though at that time it was a Fortune 50 company, it felt like it was a family company. That changed unfortunately during the years I was there, of all operations, I remember I started sitting down with employees and I came into an organization that had the lowest employee engagement scores of these folks, especially ones in the call centers, or you know, who were supporting, who were running the operation control center, etc. And it was shocking to me because they're like, you're the first leader in my entire time here at Lowe's that ever asked me about my thoughts or what I thought we could do to make it better. And to me, I call it a line of site framework, and I've used it in almost every job I've gotten.

But if you're a person in the call center, especially in a retailer, a customer of a retailer has three interaction points, the store, e-commerce site, or a person on the phone. And if that person on the phone isn't engaged when they're talking to a customer, forget about it. You're fighting a losing battle from the beginning. And so what I started to do is I created a line of sites so that none of them understood at all the company strategy. But I had to distill it in a way that they understood that their job had a line of sight directly to impact and the APIs and the bottom line as well as the valuation

of the company because of the job that they were doing. And once you do that, you know, as a lesson to someone who might be listening, you completely change that person from being there to collect the paycheck, to being Ash and Strach and what they're doing because all of a sudden it brings in new meaning. And then if you empower them to actually have a voice and to not be afraid to give you feedback and what's working, what's not, it completely changes the whole dynamics. And in that case, our group went from the worst in the company

within 18 months to the third best performing group and engagement in the entire organization. I think it's a lot than that so many leaders out there need to learn. And many of them are not in a leadership position. They might be that person who's in the call center, but you don't want to learn by example, you want to learn how you would want to be led. So it's a different question, right, on what can leaders do. And I have a lot for those individuals, versus those who might be at the helm of leadership,

who are disengaged, but what you just said are the levels. So they were confused by the messaging. They were at level two, a much lower level than where you wanted them to be. Level six is critical engagements when you inspire someone to set goals to make a difference. That's what you wanted for them to do. And in order to get there, you need to make sure they were not confused by the messaging. Where was the company going and what was their role in it? You need to limit distractions for them. So give them very clear understanding of what their roles were and how they can actually grow within those roles. You need to do structure dependent engagement instruction base. This is how you actually reach those KPIs. You do this, you do this, you do this, you do this,

you need to have self-regulated interest, peak their interest, get them excited. What's within it for them? What were incentives? I'm sure they were incentives baked into it in some process if they did reach those KPIs. And then you need to give them, but you had to build up to this a space where they felt safe, seeing, heard in order to have a voice. But you couldn't just a lot of leaders. My business partner was Tony Shea, the CEO of Zappos, and he recently passed away, and I was so lucky to be able to learn from him in so many ways. He was amazing. I got to interview him when I was at bold business, and I recognized him for a bold leadership award and he was just

an amazing interview and I could tell an amazing human being. Yeah, I was talking about him a few days ago about phone calls and I was again to my husband and I was saying that most people as it pertains to customer service want people to get off the phone. The measure of success is how short the phone call is. A Tony measure success based on, I think Zappos had a record for the longest customer service call in history. And everyone who worked at Zappos had to go through their CLT program, their customer service training program.

And that is people I, so often see this opportunity to have people feel seen heard and for them to share their voice. But unless there is a culture that isn't toxic, that people feel like they can fit into. First of all, they have to understand what the culture is. Then they have to know how they align with that culture. Then there needs to be small steps to take to earn their trust. You can't just be like, you're disengaged and now you're engaged. That's why these levels are so unique because it was a learning framework.

It was a framework that I used to understand what it meant to learn and what it meant for a child to trust the teacher enough to feel like they could learn. Learning is a much different mechanism and connection point than it is to, again, just kind of show up to work. And so what you're saying as a leader, it was so important that you also validated these individuals, you went to them and said, your job is important,

your work matters, you matter. And that's the first step as leaders to being able to even have a relationship with your internal customer to then also allow for them to be the ambassadors of the brand. I interviewed Tony as one of his last, I think, formal interviews. And he was really obsessed. This is like, again, a whole other podcast, but he was obsessed with self-organization rather than a hierarchy. He was obsessed with creating a workplace that was more like nature, like a rainforest. You know, he always would say like a rainforest as no CEO.

I like to think of like ants or bees where everyone kind of knew their role. And Tony was a futurist and every sense of the word. And a lot of the things that I think he saw won't come to fruition for another 10 years, but they always came true with Tony. And there was a story, he sent me an article, he didn't even remember sending it to me,

but he sent me an article that I brought up in the interview and I watched it recently and there was a janitor at Cheetos came up with the idea for flaming hot cheetos and I just I brought that up because I I brought it up in the interview with him first of all I love spicy food so it said it hey but it was this idea that everyone matters and everyone has has value to give. You just need to create a space, a place, you know, a, he would call it a greenhouse where the temperature as a CEO, your job is a set that, or a leader, your job is to set the temperature

just right. It's at the conditions just right for people to flourish and to grow. And so I just think we could learn, there's not really many people in the world like Tony, the thought like Tony, I think a lot of CEOs want to think like Tony, but they're so focused on the head part that they're not really connected to the heart. So I think we could all be a little bit more like Tony and the world would be better off. Yeah, I was lucky to work with a leader similar to him at Lowe's.

And while I was there, I went to the senior, I went to the CEO and senior leadership to launch an initiative we call the Integrated Workforce Experience. I mean, a lot of words, but basically what was happening at that this point, I had switched jobs. I was now in charge of all software development, but I started seeing that the engagement

between the stores and the leadership had a huge gap. Much as they possibly could, those, especially store operations people were on the plane every single week, visiting stores, but you can't visit all of them. And oftentimes when you go to the stores, you're shielded because that store manager is doing most of the talking with that regional vice president, whoever it may be. And so the head of stores, this guy, Mike Brown came to me and said, is there a way that I can talk directly to from the highest level in a store to the lowest?

And so it was one, I think of the first applications of something like Zoom. And this was probably in 2007, 2008. So the technology really didn't exist then. But we created, we used a web sphere platform and he started getting on these daily web cam calls and people thought he was crazy, but the level of engagement completely changed

because he started hearing from the bottom up like what was happening? And then it changed the complete way that he leaves. But I think, you know, for many, it's difficult to take that lead because you are putting yourself in harm's way because you were gonna catch some of that of always, but you're gonna catch a lot of criticism along the way. Yeah, I mean, I'm on the board of a company called Speakfully

and they're a tool that allows for listening to your internal customer on not only their grievances, but what they're a tool that allows for listening to your internal customer on not only their grievances but what they're experiencing in the workplace to improve that workplace condition. I think that there's two, well there's probably three things I want to bring up. Tony met same interview which is kind of coming up for me in this conversation talked about how he would always ask the drivers who drove people from the airport for the interview and drove people to Zappos their perspectives and opinions on people. And I just thought that was

amazing to see, you know, it's and I just had a conversation with someone at a coffee shop a few days ago about this. And you know, when I was in the restaurant industry and hospitality, while there were a lot of celebrities and a lot of wealthy people that I dealt with, the people that helped me throughout my entire career move moved furniture, and really just like, were there for me were the bus boys. Like those people, and every one of my properties, I would not have been able to do my job without them. So while I was wearing high heels, moving tables,

greeting the founder of Marquis Jets right before then, I was moving those tables with the bus boys. I always would say like, bus boys and billionaires, everyone's the same. I think that it's extremely important that we treat everyone with respect. And I think it's twofold what happened with that leader. The leader learned a lot from those individuals.

And so that person started to lead differently, but by talking to all those individuals, they felt safe and also responding to some of their needs, right? You can't just be like, okay, well, nice to see you and then do nothing. But they felt hurt, they felt seen, they felt like they mattered. And so it was a two-way street, they both shifted in that process. And no matter what, I mean, you to continue to ignore your internal customers, you know, feelings and experiences. And you'll just have a disengaged workplace that will probably either end up in the news or, you know, something will happen

that will bubble up and your company will not last anymore. I think maybe 30, 40 years ago, you could have gone away with not walking the walk and just talking to talk but not anymore and we've seen that. At this point, your internal customer has a very big voice on social media, on Glassdoor, on LinkedIn, and you need to treat your internal customer with just as much respect as you do, if more respect than you do with then your external customer

because they are the first voice for your brand. Well, you're completely right. I also thought in your TED talk, you made a very good point and you just brought part of it up that billionaires and everyday people, there's very little separating them. And I think that uh... Separate dollars. Separate dollars. But one, that's been part of the thing about that I've done with passion struck is as analyzed a lot of them and it's they pick everyone I've looked at uses actions and mindsets that have gotten them from regular person to this billionaire, but I think your point about it's difficult to listen to Richard Branson talk about passion as compared to, you know, a couple months ago, I interviewed a lady who was working six different jobs and including being an Uber driver and she was hard for getting reposed, she was losing houses, she was trying to support her kids. And finally, she made

the decision that I need to stop making other people's dreams come true and start making my dreams come true. When she had that mindset shift in herself, she realized that what made her different was her passion for cooking, and that's what always lit her up. And so 18 months from that point, she was making multiple six figures because she made that shift. And a lot of that comes down to engagement, but it's self-engagement. So I thought it might be, we've talked a little bit about company engagement.

And you kind of put your framework for, maybe you're a person and I call it these portfolio careers where you're just, you're kind of doing the same job and you're not feeling great about it. You wanna take the sleep, but you don't necessarily feel like you have the courage or you feel social pressure or financial pressure.

How do you change that narrative? How do you get self-engaged to make that change? We have a, it's called catalyststatement.com. It's like you can create your own seventh-level statement. What is that personal values and belief that is your North Star that can catalyze you and others into action? And I think the reason why I started my company and called it Catalyst is I just felt the urge to never, I never wanted anyone to be a passive consumer in their own life, like

a passenger of their own life. I wanted them to be an active participant in the world. It would sadden me when I would see someone who was just uninspired and apathetic in their own existence. That's devastating to me. You know, so I just wanted everyone to feel that they deserve the ability to be inspired in some aspect of their life. So in that talk, which I probably haven't watched, like six, I don't even know what I gave you six years ago. I really talked about this time in my life when I was at that hospitality company. And, you know, I had gone from education to hospitality. And I had felt that there

was this part of me that wasn't really alive anymore. And that I needed to kind of bring back into my life in some way. But I couldn't leave that hospitality job. And so I figured out ways and not everyone could do this. But I figured out ways to bring that side of me into my work. And in that case, it was hosting nonprofit experiences, educating people that might not know about what was going on in the world,

like very wealthy bankers that weren't really focused on giving back. And I hosted different nonprofit events every single week and introduced them to different charities and changed their perspective and then also help the charities. And that was like, it helped the restaurants because the restaurants were dead on Tuesdays and it was just kind of an easy way to fill the restaurants. It helped the nonprofits because they got a free space, they got to raise money, it helped

the bankers because they felt good about themselves. It actually changed their perception of reality and everyone left happy and I left happy because I felt like I was doing something that brought that educator that that impact back in my life while I was working. That was all free. It benefited my company. It benefited me and it benefited the world in some way, but not everyone can do that in their traditional job. I think that it's really important that we take small steps and we don't think it's just again that I'm going to now change my entire life. I think it's starting with yourself and identifying what do you value? What do you believe?

What are those things that make you special, that we so often don't recognize our own gifts because they come so naturally to us. Identifying that is the first step. From there, it's taking tiny steps towards testing out what that looks like in your day-to-day life, whether that is volunteering or whether that is looking for something that you can do with your code of code spare time, whether that's even like, I've said it in this talk, I think around like whether it is writing a blog or doing something for your neighbor or what is it that you can start to flex that muscle, start to build that muscle, and then take tiny risks along the way to be able to see that path. I create breadcrumbs for yourself, but use that statement, use those values, use those beliefs

as the path, the happiness indicator, the GPS, happiness GPS on what direction you're going, but it doesn't have to be all or nothing. It can be tiny steps towards what makes you happy and feeling a sense of purpose. Yeah, it's interesting whether I have interviewed Steelers trying to get through buds or combat or astronauts trying to get through a mission or people trying to get through cancer or this or that it all comes down to the same message. I call it the being turtle effect. You have to be like the turtle in the fact that you have this dream that you want to achieve, but you can't rush to get there. So like a turtle, you need to do it gradually, because if you go too fast, you're going to skip so many of

the steps. And that's where the B part comes in, because the B is very much focused on the here and now and the present and what they need to do in support of their colony. So it's not how do you bring the best of those two worlds together so that you're balancing a long-term horizon with the daily tasks that you need to get done. So it's amazing how much that comes up in so many different circumstances. Yeah, I also thought you brought up a good thing in that I think as people are thinking about what their secret gift is, you know, we all are our own storyteller

and we're the main actor in it. And so what makes, I think our passion come alive is when you figure out what are those things that are distinguishing about you that make you unique. And then who would want to be a customer of those? And then it's the shift as I talked about earlier, ego or showmanship, shifting from that to serving others instead of serving yourself.

See why you like the TEDx talk with the three piece toast. So I totally feel alignment there around you know this idea of passion and yes bringing in money and profitability but solving a specific world problem and applying yourself to how you can better other people's lives. And you know I really also, I like that analogy because for me I left education for a lot of reasons but I really wanted to transform the way we learn, and I have always wanted to do that, and it's been an underlying reason for a lot of the decisions that I've made throughout my life, but I also realized that I couldn't just go from being, you know,

a cog in the wheel to totally breaking the wheel, and that is what I've always gearing up towards, is transforming the way we learn. It's just taking time because I see those bread crumbs and I see that goal, but it's it's going to take years and years and years to transform systems that we have been so dependent on. And we can't just break those systems because a lot of people depend on those those systems. So I think what you said is a really interesting interesting analogy

and especially because I already brought up the bees, but I am not a tour. I am like literally everything about me is move fast, move fast, move fast, I speak fast, I, you know, I broke my foot because I was like running and I tripped and it's like everything is like I have to slow down. That's what I've always been told my whole life. So I do really relate to the fact that if we can think a bit more like that bread crumb like what's the next step what's the next step what's I'm learning now with my child is he's learning to walk like versus we go from crawling to sprinting we go from disengaged to engage like what are the steps we need to

take step-by-step to just figure out what's gonna get us closer to what we care about and what matters. Sometimes, and sometimes in your career, you even think, let's say you're going to set us here right now at a big four consulting firm and you've got your eye on partner. If you hurry up through that progression too fast, it can actually be detrimental in you learning through each phase as you're going from that to managers, senior manager to whatever it is. If you short circuit those two quick, you can look lose

or not learn some of the most important skills. Well, on that note, and then I'm going to go into the last portion of the interview. If a listener or a watcher of the video would like to get in contact with you and I'll put these in the show notes, what are some of those best ways? LinkedIn is the best possible way. You can find me on LinkedIn. You can find me on my name, amanislaven.com.

There's a lot. We'll send you a lot of catalyst statement if you want to do your own statement. You can somehow get to me our catalyst website, which will give you, but yeah, LinkedIn is the easiest because it's me and then I could point you to all the resources that matter Okay, well, I'm gonna take you through the fan favorite portion of the interview, which is the liking round and I

I'll do it quick. So the first thing is Now that you have a child I have a I have a son who just turned 23 if you were looking back at that 2223 year old Virgin of yourself. What is the most important lesson you would tell yourself? You don't have to know everything. You don't know everything right now and that's totally okay and be humble and recognized that it's going to take you some time to learn all of the lessons that you think you know at that moment. How do you keep your act sharp, especially now that, you know, you have some different elements in your life because I'm sure many listeners are in that same spot.

No matter what meditate once a day under all circumstances and try to do twice a day, that is extremely important to me. And I walk as, like, if I have to take a phone call, I make sure that I'm getting out of the house and actually walking for myself. And I'm sure that I'm getting out of the house and actually walking for myself and I'm reading just voraciously all of the time on reading articles, reading, I'm on LinkedIn just like really consuming, consuming, consuming, but also like actively participating in reading and sharing

and commenting and and getting to know different industries, not just the industry that I think I'm a part of, I think that's the most important thing is step outside your comfort zone and what you think you should be learning and learn all different things from all different types of people and all different voices. So diversify the way that you're consuming information but take in lots and lots and lots of information as much as you can and then give yourself time to rest and integrate that information. So becoming a constant learner. I thought your life, what is one thing that you've eliminated from it that has made you more productive? I went to this acupuncturist when I was trying to get pregnant who talked to

me about how people make you either expand or contract and I actually ended up getting rid of some people in my life that I felt were making me contract. I didn't get rid of them. I just transitioned them from being kind of this close to me to maybe being a few circles in a different relationship to me. So I made some really intentional decisions and hard decisions about the way that people were in my life, whether they made me expand or contract. Yeah. And I must like insects or something because I, I, I have a, by saying, or a principal, I teach called the mosquito principle.

It's that you've got to do a mosquito audit. And I call them the pain in the asses, invisible suffocators and the blood suckers in your life. And they don't have to be people. They could be influences or activities. Yeah. Okay. Oh, yeah.

Social media. I don't use, I actually don't use Facebook. I don't use Instagram. Well, I mean, Facebook for work to an extent, but like I don't passively consume Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, Twitter, I really use LinkedIn. So that's a huge thing that I've cut out of my life. I don't compare myself to others highlight reals.

That's very important to me. And I always ask this question. So you get to go on the mission to Mars and you're the first person who's gonna land and they tell you and the fellow astronauts that are hitting the planet that you're gonna colonize it and that you can set the initial laws. What would be a law that you would set for the planet?

Hmm, that's a great question. I would say that every single person on the planet has to be a teacher in some way. So they have to teach someone something that they that they don't necessarily know. And every single person on that planet has to have a process for respecting others' contribution. So however that looks, whether it's, you know, how can you be a learner and how can you be a teacher? Okay, well great. Well, I mean, thank you so much for being on the show today. It was an awesome interview and listeners and watchers are gonna get so much from it. Thank you so, so much.

You really, really enjoyed it. Because I know about my own life and my time across my career. There were periods where I felt very engaged, and other periods where I felt much less engagement than I probably should have. And I'm sure many of you who are watching or listening have felt the same way. Engagement plays such an important part in our life. Because as we engage in something, we are given our all to it. Whereas our engagement lessons, so does our enthusiasm for the pursuit of it. So I thought today's discussion with Amanda was extremely important in that

engagement can play such a big role for you on this passion journey that you want to take. For me, engagement is absolutely critical when you're on your execution path. That execution where you are trying to take those micro steps, those bread problems that we talked about today, those failing intentions and priorities that you were putting in place. And it's easy to get disengaged. It's easy to get distracted by those things that are all around us as we also talked about today's podcast. That in-ball life that I talked about in a previous episode on Passion Start Podcast. I hope today's message on engagement is one that you could resonate with and that you will find if you're not engaged today, but at to engagement, whether it be in your career,

your personal life, or on your passion journey. And if you love today's episode, I would really be thankful that you could subscribe to the Passion Start podcast and send this episode out to other like-minded friends who are just like you, whether that be on email or social media. And as always, make a choice or card and step into your tarp edges. Thank you so much for joining us. The purpose of our show is to make Passion Go viral.

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