Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Andrew Newberg on What Makes Us Feel Like We Matter | EP 607

Episode Date: May 6, 2025

In this thought-provoking episode of Passion Struck, host John R. Miles is joined by renowned neuroscientist Dr. Andrew Newberg, a pioneer in the field of neurotheology—the science at the intersection of the brain, belief, and spirituality.Together, they explore a powerful question: What makes us feel like we matter?Dr. Newberg shares groundbreaking research on how the brain processes spiritual experiences, what happens neurologically when we meditate or pray, and why our deepest beliefs play a vital role in shaping our sense of purpose, connection, and emotional resilience.Click here for the full show notes: https://passionstruck.com/andrew-newberg-what-makes-us-feel-like-we-matter/Join the Ignition Room!Join the new Passion Struck Community! - The Ignition Room: https://station.page/passionstruckKey Takeaways:The neuroscience behind belief, purpose, and spiritual practiceHow mindfulness reshapes the brain’s architectureWhy people with spiritual habits tend to live with more hopeAnd how to reinforce your sense of mattering every dayFor more information on Dr. Andrew Newberg: https://www.andrewnewberg.com/Sponsors:Factor Meals: http://factormeals.com/factormeals50off and use code “FACTOR MEALS 50 OFF”Rosetta Stone: Unlock 25 languages for life at “ROSETTASTONE.com/passionstruck.”Prolon: Reset your health with 15% off at “ProlonLife.com/passionstruck.”Mint Mobile: Cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at “MINT MOBILE dot com slash PASSION.”Hims: Start your journey to regrowing hair with Hims. Visit hims.com/PASSIONSTRUCK for your free online visit.Quince: Discover luxury at affordable prices with Quince. Enjoy free shipping and 365-day returns at quince.com/PASSIONFor more information on advertisers and promo codes, visit Passion Struck Deals.Speaking Engagements & WorkshopsAre you looking to inspire your team, organization, or audience to take intentional action in their lives and careers? I’m available for keynote speaking, workshops, and leadership training on topics such as intentional living, resilience, leadership, and personal growth. Let’s work together to create transformational change. Learn more at johnrmiles.com/speaking.Episode Starter PacksWith over 500 episodes, it can be overwhelming to know where to start. We’ve curated Episode Starter Packs based on key themes like leadership, mental health, and personal growth, making it easier for you to dive into the topics you care about. Check them out at passionstruck.com/starterpacks.Catch More of Passion Struck:My solo episode on The Mattering Mindset in Love – Choose the Love You DeserveCan't miss my episode with Jesse Bradley on Use the Power of Hope to Overcome AdversityMy episode with Kate Bowler on Why There is No Cure for Being HumanListen to my interview with Dr. Samuel Wilkinson on Why Life Is a Test of Good and EvilCatch my interview with Matthew Weintrub on the Psychedelic Origin of ReligionListen to my solo episode on Fading into Insignificance: The Impact of Un-Mattering in Our Interconnected EraIf you liked the show, please leave us a review—it only takes a moment and helps us reach more people! Don’t forget to include your Twitter or Instagram handle so we can thank you personally.How to Connect with John:Connect with John on Twitter at @John_RMilesFollow him on Instagram at @John_R_MilesSubscribe to our main YouTube Channel and to our YouTube Clips ChannelFor more insights and resources, visit John’s websiteWant to explore where you stand on the path to becoming Passion Struck? Take our 20-question quiz on Passionstruck.com and find out today!

Coming up next on Passion Strike. If you are part of a religious group that is engaged in a ritual, it could be a ceremony, it could be a meditation practice, prayer program, then you have a whole bunch of people whose parietal lobes are now quieting down. And as they engage this practice, that boundary between themselves and the other people that are with them begins to go away. They begin to feel blended, connected, again, unified, different words that people use, but a sense of oneness with the individuals, with the other individuals that are part of this process. Welcome to Passion Struck.

Hi, I'm your host, Jon R. Miles. And on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips, and guidance of the world's most inspiring people and turn their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you. Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself. If you're new to the show,

I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays. We have long form interviews the rest of the week with guests ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries, and athletes. Now let's go out there and become Passion Struck. Hey, Passion Struck fam, welcome to episode 607. Whether this is your first time tuning in or you've been with us from the start, I am so grateful you're here. Together, we're building a global movement

rooted in one powerful idea, you don't have to settle. You can live with intention, lead with purpose, and make what truly matters matter most. This month, we're in the middle of a transformative arc, one that centers on a truth we don't talk about enough. Mental health is not a side note, it's the root system of a meaningful life. Last Friday I released a solo episode exploring why emotional well-being isn't just about managing stress or coping with anxiety, it's about building a sustainable values aligned

life that doesn't run you dry. I shared the mattering mental health loop, the hidden cost of ignoring your inner world, and why seeking emotional support isn't weakness, it's capacity. That conversation set the foundation for what's ahead. We kicked off the week with two powerful episodes. First, a live interview with Gretchen Rubin,

author of The Happiness Project and Secrets of Adulthood, recorded in front of 200 passionate listeners. We explored how self-awareness, identity, and the small truths of adulthood can reshape the way we show up for ourselves and others. Then came Elizabeth Weingarten, whose thought-provoking new book invites us to rethink our relationship with uncertainty and discover how living the questions can unlock courage, creativity, and deeper connection. If you missed those, go back.

They lay the emotional and intellectual groundwork for today's episode. If you missed those, go back. They lay the emotional and intellectual groundwork for today's episode and for this entire series on psychological resilience and inner clarity. And before we dive in, I want to pause and say thank you because your support continues to fuel this mission and amplify this message. Passion Struck was just named the number three life leadership podcast by Million Podcasts alongside the Jocko podcast and the School of Greatness.

And we're honored to have won the Gold Stevie Award for best independent podcast at the 2025 American Business Awards. If you're new here, we've made it easy to explore our most impactful ideas. Check out our episode starter packs at passionstruck.com slash starter packs or on Spotify. Curated playlists on purpose, emotional mastery,

self leadership and more. Wanna go deeper? Join the ignition room, our private community for high performers and deep thinkers. And head over to our YouTube channel where you'll find full video episodes, highlight reels and exclusive bonus content. Now let's

talk about today's episode. What if your brain was biologically wired for awe, purpose, and connection? What if spiritual experience wasn't just a feeling, but a neural pattern with profound psychological benefits? And what if understanding belief could help us heal? Today I'm joined by Dr. Andrew Newberg, a pioneer in the emerging field of neurotheology where neuroscience meets spirituality. Dr. Newberg is the Director of Research at the Marcus Institute of Integrative Health

and the author of the acclaimed books like How God Changes Your Brain, Why We Believe What We Believe, and the Varieties of Spiritual Experience. His research reveals what happens in the brain during meditation, prayer, and mystical states, and how those experiences influence our well-being, our identity, and our capacity to feel whole. In this conversation, we explore the science of belief and why it matters for mental health, how meditation and mindfulness reshape our neural pathways,

why spiritual connection can build psychological resilience, and what the latest brain science tells us about mattering, transcendence, and meaning. Whether you're a skeptic, a seeker, or someone in between, this is a conversation that bridges science and soul. So let's dive in. Here's my conversation with the brilliant Dr. Andrew Newberg. Thank you for choosing Passion Struck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life. Now let that journey begin.

I am absolutely thrilled and honored today to have Dr. Andrew Newberg on Passion Strike. Welcome Andrew. Thanks. Thanks for being on the program. I love it when I have a fellow Pennsylvania person on the show because we get what it was like to grow up in that great state. And I understand as you were growing up, you developed this deep interest in science, astronomy, and the systems of the body as a child. And I wanted to ask you, looking

back, was there a moment that you felt pulled towards understanding how humans matter in the larger universe? I think it's just kind of part of the fabric of who I am. I have been interested from day one, always trying to understand who we are, how we work. I often, in reflecting back on my childhood, I think it's sometimes funny. When I was in, I think first or second grade, they had in the library, they had a book of the body systems and I would just go and there were like nine of them and I would take them out one at a time and And then I'd take it, go back. And from very early on, I was fascinated by science.

I was fascinated by who we are as human beings. And I think I was always very inquisitive. I always had a lot of questions about the nature of the world. I don't know if there was like a specific moment but I just always reflected on how come people believe different things? If we're all looking at the same world,

how come there's different political parties, different religious ideas, different moral ideas about the world? Shouldn't we all just agree with one answer? And obviously we don't. And that was concerning to me, but I guess I felt like I needed to try to understand where are those differences coming from?

What is the nature of reality and how ultimately do we perceive that reality as human beings? So just something I've always been fascinated by. I've been fortunate that from my parents to my friends, to teachers, always got a lot of encouragement. And another little cute, funny story

was that when I first started publishing some of this and some of the work really got out there in prominence and in some of the big Time magazine and things like that. At one point I got an email from a very old friend I hadn't talked to in a long time who we went to summer camp with and he said, I can't believe that all those discussions about God and the universe and everything we used to have around the campfire, you were really taking that seriously. So I said, yep, I do. So anyway, so yeah, it's just been something that I just feel like it's just been something that I just feel like it's part of what life is all about really, which is asking questions and trying

to learn about the world. So one of the things that you have studied for years is neurotheology. And I was hoping for the listeners who might not be familiar with that term, what is that the study of and what has your work? Well, I think that neurotheology for me, the basic definition of neurotheology is that it is a field, it is the field of study that helps us to try to understand the relationship between the brain and our religious and spiritual selves. So that's the elevator answer. But to me, for it to work as a term, for it to work as a field, there's a couple of important things

that people need to understand about it. One of them is that for me, neurotheology is a two-way street, I like to say, which is that it's not just science looking at religion, it's not just religion looking at science, but it's really the two of them looking at each other and ultimately looking at ourselves as human beings and trying to help us understand who we are

and how we engage the world around us. And with that in mind, so the neuro side and the theology side to me also need to be defined very broadly. And the neuro side is not just neuroscience, but it's neuroimaging, it is psychology, it's anthropology. It's all the ways that we really get at our mind, our consciousness, and how we are and how we think as human beings. The theology side, theology itself is a specific discipline where you're analyzing a religious tradition, the sacred text, and so forth,

and trying to break it out and really try to understand it, which is certainly something that we can look at, which is how do we think about these very big questions about the nature of free will, the nature of our relationship with some higher being or with the universe in some way, all these really deep philosophical questions. But it goes beyond that too, which is that it's not just theology proper, but it is the evaluation of different practices, meditation, prayer, and so forth, different experiences, spiritual experiences, mystical experiences, and so forth. So it's all the ways

in which a person is religious or spiritual that makes up the theology side. And so if you define those two aspects of neurotheology very broadly, I think you have a very rich, exciting, and expansive field of work that can utilize many different approaches. There can be philosophical debates, there can be brain imaging studies, there can be can be philosophical debates, there can be brain imaging studies, there can be health related studies, there can be moral arguments, there are all these different kinds of questions that we can look at.

So there's really a tremendous amount of things for us to try to evaluate through this lens of neurotheology. And I do hope that, going back to what we were just talking about, I hope that it recognizes the importance of these two fundamental sides of humanity, the religious and spiritual side, which has been with us since the dawn of human history

and the technology science side of us, which has also been there since the dawn of history. I think to me it makes sense to bring those two sides of us together to try to help us figure out who we are. Well, and to build on that, much of your work explores the brain processes and how those processes bring about meaning and purpose. From a neurological perspective, why is the need to matter such a fundamental part of the human experience? Well, I think it ultimately comes down to how we understand ourselves and our place within the world.

And so the idea of when we look out at the world, it probably stems from a kind of a fundamental challenge that we all face. And I talk about this a lot. I wrote a book on why we believe what we believe, where we discuss this. If you think about what we have the ability to work with, we have access to 0.000 and fill in another 1000 zeros, 1% of

everything that's going on in this universe. And yet somehow we have to figure out what is going on so that we can live our lives and figure out what we need to do in order to survive. So we get access to this tiny percentage of the universe. We are mortal, we are flawed, our brains make all kinds of mistakes. And yet somehow we have to try to figure out what the world is and what we need to do on a very basic level. If you go back in evolutionary time, we need to figure out how to get food.

We need to figure out how to avoid being food. And we have to have some very basic ideas about the world around us. And anytime we don't have a good sense of what the world is or how we are supposed to be in that world, our very existence is threatened. And so in our brain and our body, autonomic nervous system, our emotional systems are telling us we've got to figure this out. This is it's going to make us very anxious until we have some sense of what we need to do. And so when we can create a sense of order, a sense of control, a sense of understanding, a sense of meaning, a sense of purpose in the world, that helps to

calm those kinds of ontological anxieties down so that we can go about our world and try to survive, to try to figure out what we need to do. And that becomes really fundamental for who we are as human beings. And the downside of that is that sometimes then people take that sense of meaning and purpose to such an intense level that sometimes when they come across somebody who doesn't hold that same ideas, they have a different religion or a different political ideology, then that can become very challenging because now again our anxiety, well wait a minute, I thought I had it figured out. Now they're telling me I'm wrong,

but how am I supposed to think about this? Of course, our brain has one of two options. One is that I'm right and you're wrong, and the other is that you're right and I'm wrong. Well, which one do you think your brain is going to choose? It's usually going to think that I'm right and the other person's wrong. Of course, this does then can often lead to

a lot of hatred and animosity because it's going, if I know I'm right and they're wrong, why do they keep telling me I'm wrong? Maybe there's something wrong with them. Maybe they're a bad person. Maybe they're an evil person. And so you can see how it well on one hand, it's so important to develop this sense of meaning and ideas about how the world works. It's fundamental to our survival, but it really can create a lot of strife and angst against other people who don't see the world the same way. And that to me is also where I hope neurotheology can help us to see that we are all looking at the world differently, and maybe that's okay. Maybe we can learn from each other and support each other instead of always fighting with each other. Yeah, what you were just describing reminds me

of some of the work of the late Emile Brunel, who was trying to look at conflict and how do you humanize the other side? Is that in some ways what you're referring to? Yeah, absolutely, because if you now view them as evil, as wrong, part of what I think ultimately can happen is you have, not you, but one has their perspective of reality and what kind of exists within that reality. So if you have this person who's out

there who is not seeming to fit into that reality, it's almost as if they are not real and they are not human, they are not real, they're the embodiment of evil. And so it is something where you might ultimately feel that you really do dehumanize them. And so I agree, to your point, what I hope that neurotheology kind of helps us to say is that people will look, all of us are in the same boat. All of us have a brain that more or less functions the same way, but each of our brains are affected by our genetics, by our upbringing, by the good things that happen to us, the traumas that happen to us, the people, our parents, our friends, our teachers, and then here we are at this moment looking at the world. It's no wonder that we

see the world a little bit differently. Every one of us is going to see the world differently, and even if you line up a hundred people who are all Catholic or all Muslim, Jewish, whatever, and ask them about their traditions, you're still going to get different answers. I always argue that if there's whatever seven or eight billion people on the planet, there's seven or eight billion religions on the planet, there's seven or eight billion political ideas about the world. So obviously they tend to group around certain, they coalesce around certain ideas that seem to make sense to people and that people can find universal qualities in. But yeah, I mean, I think a lot of it is the recognition of the humanity of the fact that,

well, we are all part of this process of trying to learn and understand. And so maybe you're not evil if you've come to a different conclusion. You're just a different, another human being who's come to a different conclusion. I wanted to ask as a followup to that, I know you have done a ton of work along with David Yaden and others examining fMRIs, PET scans, etc. Does the mind look different for someone who has a deep sense of meaning versus someone who feels isolated, lost, disconnected? It's a really interesting question. And I guess, as I often wind up answering questions about the brain, it's always far more complex

than we ever hope. It's never an ability to say, oh, yep, here it is. This is the end. It's just their amygdala is to this or their hippocampus is to that. Because part of the problem is, as I was just pointing out, we come into each perspective through our genetics, through our brain processes, our development, our parents, and all these

factors, which then while we have fairly similar brains, we all have frontal lobes, we all have temporal lobes, we all have limbic systems, the way they're connected, the amount of different neurotransmitters, chemicals in the brain like dopamine and serotonin and so forth are all a little bit different. And I think part of the challenge that we have is while we can look at different groups of people and say, well, overall, if you have a sense of meaning and purpose, you're more likely to have more dopamine than somebody who doesn't, for example, there's too much overlap. And it really does become a challenge, I think,

to figure out all the different elements, all the different factors that make up those differences. And again, even when you think about something like meaning and purpose, some people may find meaning and purpose through a spiritual lens that God has created me, I'm in the image of God and I have a very strong Christian belief,

whatever it is that the person believes, and that's where they derive meaning and purpose. I know before we got on, we were talking about football. For a football player, maybe meaning and purpose is by playing football. There's been some great movies where it's like, you were born to be a football player, you were born to be a hockey player, whatever. And that's a sense of meaning and purpose. And in today's world, I think where the political spectrum has really risen to the fore,

and that becomes their sense. It's being a Republican, it's being a Democrat that sort of gives them that sense of meaning and purpose. So, those distinctions then wind up leading to different ways of thinking about things. And of course, scientists will say, yes, it's about asking questions about discovering the world and things like that,

which is my sense of meaning and purpose. So some of them are more cognitive, some of them are more emotional. And I think in the end, we don't really see clear way of distinguishing those people who are more religious or less religious or have a greater sense of meaning and purpose than others. We can point to certain areas of our brain.

We know having that sense of meaning and purpose does involve a lot of our sort of our brain, we know having that sense of meaning and purpose does involve a lot of our sort of cognitive areas, parts of our frontal lobe that help us to focus our mind and focus our consciousness on different ways of thinking. There's certainly some elements of emotional content to make us feel comfortable and calm within that sense of meaning and purpose. And so those are all aspects that are part of that process. But the exact thing that kind of leads towards a given individual's perspective on things is often very challenging to really unravel

as far as a brain scan study goes. I understand it. I just wanted to explore it to see if there was a hidden thing there that might become apparent, but I understand why it can become so difficult. Right, and yeah, for someone like myself, I actually find somewhat the lack of ability to say, oh, it's just right here. It's just this, I guess, somewhat comforting. There is a complexity to it. There's layers to it. And you, you mentioned David Yaden, we published

a book called the varieties of spiritual experience. And a lot of it was based on a survey we did of a couple thousand different experiences. And it's wonderful because they all have a unique element to it. They all have a unique character to them, which to me is important because it does really speak to the uniqueness of each person. On the other hand, we are able to try to isolate certain aspects of how we think about things. And when we talk about a sense of meaning and purpose, how do we relate objects to each other? How do we relate ourselves to something greater?

And those aspects, those elements, can actually become part of a larger perspective on how we actually see our sense of meaning and purpose. And then we can try to relate those to different areas of our brain, to different structures and networks. As I mentioned, you have a sense of meaning and purpose. And then we can try to relate those to different areas of our brain, to different structures and networks. As I mentioned, you have a sense of when things have a certain order to the world and how we relate to the world, there are areas of our brain that help us to do that.

But again, since each person does it a little bit uniquely, it becomes harder to isolate those particular points. isolate those particular points. And I wanted to go from there really into religion and the impact of religion. In your book, How God Changes Your Brain, you discuss how the concept of God varies across cultures and individuals. But throughout history, religion has really impacted billions of peoples feeling about, I would say, why they feel they belong in a community, why they matter to others, why they have construct that's influencing their

life. How does your research around these religious practices and beliefs show that religion shapes our brains and fosters a sense of connection? Well, this may be something that is maybe a little easier to nail down, at least as far as the brain goes. When we have done some of our brain scan studies and we look at what goes on when people are engaged in different practices, different rituals, One of the things that we had always proposed was that there's an area of our brain called the parietal lobe that takes sensory information and helps us

to get a spatial representation of ourself. And that when people are engaged in these kinds of practices, as the practice goes on, this area of the brain quiets down. And so when that happens, what these practices, what these rituals are doing, is we then lose that spatial sense of ourself. And we actually begin to break down the boundary between ourself and the other. And that's now leading to the answer to your question. So if you are part of a religious group that is engaged in a ritual,

it could be a ceremony, it could be a ceremony, it could be a meditation practice, prayer program, then you have a whole bunch of people whose parietal lobes are now quieting down. And as they engage this practice, that boundary between themselves and the other people that are with them begins to go away. They begin to feel blended, connected, again, unified, different words that people use, but a sense of oneness with the other individuals

that are part of this process. And this goes back to some of the very early work that I did with Dr. Eugene DeQuilly, who was one of my mentors, who was a psychiatrist and an anthropologist by training. And we frequently talked about the value of ritual bringing people together as part of that process. And we think a lot of that does occur through what's going on in the parietal lobe, that

sense of connectedness. Other imaging studies actually show that when at least two people are engaged in a very intimate kind of conversation, that their brains literally resonate with each other, areas of the brain become turned on and turned off together. And so when that's happening, your brains, I don't want to say this too strongly, but they become one. You have this sense of oneness and the brains themselves are resonating with each other. And so these kinds of practices become very important for facilitating that these rituals are part of that process. Now, interestingly, the other elements to this is, well, what do you feel connected to?

So right now I'm just talking about the group. And so there is certainly this connection that you have in the immediacy of that to the group around you. But there's also the other piece to the rituals are the mythic elements, the stories, the ideas that are behind that, that we also then feel connected to.

And so you could be a very small group, you could be a group of five people, for example, doing some kind of meditation practice. And if in your story, if in your mythos, you feel connected to all of humanity, then you create this sense of oneness with every human being, with all humanity as a whole. On the other hand, and this is sometimes the downside of rituals, is that you could have a small group of 20 people

where they feel connected to themselves, but within their ideology, it is all about their own personal story and their personal connection to the world. And so now if you're not part of that myth, if you're part of a different tradition or a different perspective, now you are viewed as external, you're viewed as not real, as some of the things that we talked about earlier. So these practices and religions can be a great way

of bringing people together through the power of rituals, through the power of myths, so that we really have an idea, a very profound idea about who we are, how we're connected to each other, and how we're connected to the world. But sometimes that can become problematic if you begin to exclude people who are outside of that ritual, and it can actually foster a great deal of animosity. Rituals are used towards great evil, as well as they are used towards great good, and that therein lies part of the problem.

But our brains seem to be designed that way. In fact, the most recent book I published called Sex, God, and the Brain talks a lot about the rituals that we have as human beings that bring us together. Well, where did they come from? As I mentioned, my late mentor, Eugene De Quilley, was an anthropologist by training. So if you take an evolutionary perspective for a moment and you say, well, the rituals in the human brain theoretically had to evolve from rituals in animal brains. Well, what are animal rituals? Well, all animal rituals are mating rituals. But actually what happens in mating is that you're connected,

you're bringing two animals together. So you blur the boundary between self and other, you come together, and that process becomes a very powerful experience for the animal and obviously for us as human beings, so that all of these rituals really are at a very fundamental level of who we are and drive very powerful emotions, very powerful senses of connection, and really make us feel that our ideas and the people that we are connected to who we consider to be a part of the same group

of that whole in-group concept becomes a very strong and powerful effect for human beings, which again can be for great good, bringing everybody together, but sometimes can be for great bad. So based on what you just said, it leads to a lot of areas of exploration that I want to dive into. The first one I want to go into is how you were talking about two individuals talking.

And it's interesting. I recently interviewed Alison Woodbrooks, who's does behavioral science research at Harvard and specifically studies communication. And when we were talking, she was saying that we are really losing this art of listening. And the way we listen to someone makes us feel either seen or unseen. As you were describing, when we're really

in an in-depth conversation where we're listening to each other, it's almost like we're holding up a mirror to the other person where we see a part each other. It's almost like we're holding up a mirror to the other person where we see a part of ourselves in them because there's so much commonality in everyone. But when people are so disconnected today and they're not doing that level of connection, what do you think it's doing to us over time? Well, I think if what we have been talking about holds, then when you lose that sense of connection, you do begin to feel more isolated.

You can become more anxious, more depressed because you're not engaging the world properly. Our brains were designed to be social. Going back to this whole idea of mating and, you know, how so many of animal species and mammalian animal species, the chimpanzees and apes and so forth, all the way to lions, and they're such social creatures, and there's a social hierarchy, and you want to feel part of that, that whole group makes you feel connected, makes you feel comforted, knows that your survival is going to be protected through that process. So when you lose that process, when you lose that sense of connection to a group, when

you lose that sense of connection to another person, then it can become anxiety provoking. People can wind up withdrawing. And one of the things that's interesting also about how the brain works is that it very much cycles in different ways. And so when you are actively engaged with other people, your brain and the social areas, they become enriched and they become more vibrant and more active. And so it's kind of like the more you do it,

the more it becomes a part of who you are. On the other hand, the more you withdraw, the brain cycles in the opposite direction. And suddenly the social connections and reading people's ideas and listening, as you were talking about those skills and those abilities and those aspects of our brain begin to go away and the brain does work. The two kind of cute ways of thinking about the brain is that neurons that fire together, wire together. So if you are being social and engaging people, then you're going to have a great deal of

neural connections that support that. And then the other thing is the use it or lose it. And so over time, if you're not making those social connections, you will ultimately lose that ability. It becomes more and more challenging. And with social networks and social media and so forth, it's interesting. Our brains were not fully designed for us to interact in this way. There's some elements that make it work better.

But on the other hand, as many people know, even though you can all be sitting in a Zoom meeting with 10 people, there's a little bit of a disconnect that you feel there. And it's different than sitting in the room and feeling the bodies and seeing people moving and all that and the sounds and so that is an important part of how we have evolved and our brain hasn't really changed that much in the last hundred thousand years. So we have a stone age brain that's dealing with these kinds of modern technologies and it doesn't always go that well. Does not. So the next thing I wanted to explore on this, because I think what you

just said about communication is very accurate, is religion affiliation has been something that's gone up and down over generations. And right now we are seeing a significant drop in religious affiliation we have for a number of years. And it's been most profound among younger generations where we're also seeing a huge rise in depression and other things. From your perspective, why do you believe people are leaving organized religions? And what does this tell us about the evolving sense for meaning and purpose that people are striving for? I'm sure that there are many factors that are involved in that. And so it's difficult to isolate one thing that

leads people to turn either towards religion or away from religion. I think some of the common things that have been cited as far as religions go. First of all, unfortunately, religions are run by human beings and there have been many a number of different circumstances. Just as one example, like in Catholicism

and the child abuse issues that came up. I think there have been certain external, larger factors of different religions that have led to some distrust in people and uncertainty in terms of moral perspectives and things like that that has been a challenge. People do have access to far more information than we ever had before when you lived in some rural town. You went to the church and that was what you knew and there really wasn't a lot of opportunity to learn about other perspectives or anything like that. Whereas now with a click, you can look up any religious tradition

or any belief system or anything that you want. So you do have access to lots more information, which can be challenging for our brains to sort through and to figure out what that means. And it raises questions. And when people don't have, I think, you know, another issue that we wind up facing is on how to engage the world and are we being taught

to engage the world in ways that are exploratory and opening and questioning and dealing with the anxieties that come from that and helping people to find perspectives that work for them. There are a lot of different issues that I think come up for people that can make it challenging. Now, on the other hand, while to some degree, I would agree that the, if you look at the data that participation in more formal traditions has declined

somewhat, there's a great rise of the spiritual, but not religious. And so there are, I think almost everyone is trying to find some way of finding meaning and purpose of trying to connect to the everyone is trying to find some way of finding meaning and purpose of trying to connect to the world, trying to connect to something greater than ourselves. Maybe they are struggling to find a traditional approach, a traditional religion that has its own way of doing it. They don't see it that way, but they are striving for that. And I think, again, part of the issue that people need to look at is what do traditional

religions offer? What are other approaches that might be valuable for them? Obviously, the traditional religions have been around for thousands of years, many of them, so they at least know something that works. But it is something I think for a lot of people to explore and to look at. But I think there needs to be a recognition that we all are striving for that sense of meaning and purpose, and how do we help people do that? And I know a number of scholars have looked at the education system and have pointed to the fact that we teach people that one plus two equals three, but we seldom talk about how to be social and how to interconnect with each other and how to solve problems and how to deal with someone who doesn't agree with you

and conflict resolutions and things like that. So we don't spend a lot of time anymore really trying to figure out how to learn how to explore the world and how to interact with each other. And with today's highly technological world that may be even more relevant today than it was back then when we did have maybe more opportunities to play with each other and go out on the playground, interact with each other. Maybe we're not doing that as much. So being able to make sure that we have those capabilities to me is something that we need to think about, I think, as a society to figure out the best ways of trying to help people engage these questions,

help people to find answers to those questions that might be helpful for them. And again, we'll have to see where we go as a society because it is really a great challenge right now. It is. And why I'm trying to ask all these questions is I was recently reviewing the belonging barometer. I'm not sure if you've ever seen this, but created by the American Immigration Council.

And it's showing that 64% of Americans feel excluded at work. 74% of people feel excluded in their communities. The most telling thing to me is it showed that 17% of people feel that they lack meaning at any time in their lives. And then you look at what's happening with the loneliness epidemic, and there's no doubt these two are tied together. So it's interesting because I was recently interviewing Sandra Matz, who put out this book about AI and algorithms, et cetera. But we really got into this deep discussion of how throughout history we've grown up in villages, right?

Tribal communities. But now we're really living in a global community. And so we've gone from what you've been describing as these rituals and religious beliefs that were in these small communities to now people are being exposed to this global village where they're also nefarious characters and a lot of people who don't really believe for good or bad that you matter to them like you would have found

in that smaller village. So do you think that movement from the villages we found in work, the villages we found in our church environment, the villages in the smaller towns that we lived in compared to this global village as part of this crisis that we're facing now as society is moving from one to the other. Yeah, I think that's definitely part of the process, and I guess ultimately trying to allude to this a few moments ago, which is, I don't know if it is inherently a problem. I don't think we're prepared for it right now. And can we become prepared for it? Can we find a way to embrace this kind of global village as you were talking about?

I think so. We need to figure out how to make that happen. And part of the problem is that there are these kinds of forces that just keep going. It's hard to undo those forces in some way. It's hard to, none of us are gonna give up our smartphones and we're going to be perpetually moving towards this kind of global perspective of things,

which can be good. There can be ways of trying to embrace that, I think. But again, the challenge is, as you said, is that we're not really designed for that. We haven't really been prepared for that. And it becomes a real problem prepared for that. And it becomes a real problem for many people. And the statistics you were just talking about bear that out. But maybe there are ways of trying to encourage people. And we talk about this in our book,

words can change your brain. We've talked about this in some of our other books about religion and spirituality and making that connection. So the ability to do that is still there and it's still within us. It's a matter of how do we access that and how do we continue to foster that with people and can we find ways of looking at where the world is now and trying to improve upon that. And yeah, there's always, every time we make technological advances,

there's always pros and there's always cons. I mean, the automobile, it was great. We could get around to places that we weren't able to do before. There were more car accidents and people died because of it. But, and then it ultimately leads to people being able to work outside of the village and do other things. There's always these good and the bad that can be part of that. But I think that to me is where neurotheology hopefully can come back into play here, where we can say,

well, what is going on in our brains? What's going on in our brains when we feel that sense of connection? What's going on when we don't? Can we? Part of what neurotheology to me is also about is to take a systematic approach to things. And what I mean by that is that maybe we need to do more research to try to explore this. What are the ways in which we can try to help people prepare for this better? What are the ways that we can help people try to engage the sense of meaning and purpose more effectively?

Obviously a lot of people can still turn back towards more traditional religions that are there that maybe they came from that they can feel a connection to. And then there's other people who can't. So being able to understand that, being able to help people make those decisions and then making sure that if they are not able to return to an existing tradition, what are the other options for them that can still help them to feel that sense of connection that's still

very important for them? I want to go further into the topic of myths. I've recently been reading Neuval's recent book, Nexus, and he spends a lot of it as he's exploring how the history of information, how myths have played a role in that from the Jewish tradition of Passover to me being a Catholic and how Jesus was created by the church based on likely a rabbi with a smaller following, but they use that image of his life to create a whole church around it. And I showed you before we got on this book, the power of myth, which I, I

love reading by Joseph Campbell. And I started reading this when I was in my mid thirties, because at this time I was going through this intense study of the Bible called Discipleship 1, 2, and 3. And what I found was that I was having a very hard time interpreting the Bible. And luckily I had a pastor at the time who had a degree in theology, but he also had a PhD in history and he would take the myths from the Bible and he'd present them to us in modern day times so that we could make, we could cross that bridge so to speak. And one of the things I think Joseph Campbell says, or the way I interpreted in

this book is part of the reason people are losing connection to some of the religions is because the myths no longer apply to them in modern day, meaning they're based on cultures from thousands of years ago and people are having a hard time understanding the myths and applying it to modern day life. Do you think that bears true in any way? Well, I think you talk about myth and just to take one quick step back, I think and maybe your audience has heard this term before, one thing I always like to emphasize is that when we talk about myth, we are we're not talking about things that are inherently false, which is pejorative concept of that we talk about myths today, the myths of dieting or whatever, but really are about profound stories that have a great deal of importance in helping us to understand ourselves and helping us to understand our world. And I think to your point, it is challenging when we have stories that originate a thousand years ago, two thousand years ago, to be able to completely keep up with modern times.

And I think there's a lot of elements that certainly do, but they're become challenges and especially moral questions is when you look at like the medical sciences and what we're able to do, and which we weren't able to do a thousand years ago. So we now have the ability to think about, well, how do we keep people alive or should we do transplants?

Or like, these are questions that just weren't part of the ability to even ask those kinds of questions before. We can extrapolate, we can think about those things, but, and sometimes they were able to find that path that helps us to make that kind of connection. And it can work for people very well. But there are certainly a lot of people who struggle with that and who really have difficulty trying to understand the ideas and the stories that they were brought up with that they are now using to try to understand the world

as it is. And some people are able to figure out how to make those connections very well and very clearly. Other people are not. And again, that's where it could be very interesting to be, my guess is it's going to be a pretty complicated and multifactorial issue for people. But I think that there could be some very interesting

abilities to look at that. And for people who figured out how to make it work, what's going on in their brain? Do they look at things more nuanced, more complex, less complex? Do they bring a different kind of emotionality to it? Are they more emotional, less emotional? So there's a lot of interesting aspects to that.

But again, part of the interesting, and I don't know if this is another answer to your question, but part of what I find fascinating about some of the discussions about the research looking at things like religiosity itself is that we all have different cognitive and emotional domains that we bring to our view of the world. And there isn't really a right or a wrong one. If somebody looks at the world more emotionally or less emotionally than somebody else, is it right to be more emotional? Well, sometimes it is. It can be good to be more emotional. Maybe it helps you to make a connection. Maybe it helps you to be a doctor. Maybe it helps you to be a better doctor because you make an emotional connection with your patients. On the other hand, maybe for some people,

it's worse because now you're emotionally connected, now you can't look at them and it is an objective way as possible. So maybe for some people being emotional makes you a better doctor and for some people being emotional makes you a worse doctor. It's always this adaptability piece, which I think is quite challenging and quite interesting

that there isn't an inherently right or wrong way to be and whether again, more emotional, less emotional, more cognitive, less cognitive, but it's what works for each person and then whether or not they are able to find a way to be able to make that more adaptive, make that connection so that they understand themselves. It goes back to what we were talking at the beginning, how they understand themselves, how they understand the world, and are they able to do that with whatever perspective that they decide to take.

And if they are, then that's great, and they can be very adaptive and productive. On the other hand, if their sense of the world, if their sense of meaning and purpose is not going well, then how do they revise that? How do they come to a different way of looking at things? And history is full of people who thought they were going to do one thing in life and then wound up doing another. And history is also full of people who thought they were going to do one thing in life,

and that's exactly what they did. There isn't a right or wrong, which is, I think, maybe the most important thing to realize. And I wanted to go into your work on transcendence. So you have done a lot of work with, we've mentioned David Yaden, but also Jonathan Haidt, Dave Avago, Professor Hood, Scott Barry Kaufman, et cetera. And as I was reading some of the research papers a long time ago, it really shaped my view in the different forms of transcendence and then

specifically the science of awe. And where I'm going with this is I had a conversation with Dacher Keltner about 18 months ago that came from his book. And one of the most profound revelations from that was him finding that we find up most commonly during what he calls moments of moral beauty, where people show compassion or kindness. How has your own research found something similar that those acts of moral beauty can bring about awe or transcendence more often than other ways we might be able to experience it?

I don't think the research that I've done has specifically looked at a question such as moral beauty. It's a fascinating concept. When we look at experiences of transcendence, the core elements that we came to in some of our research was that there was a sense of clarity, a sense of unity, a sense of intensity, and a sense of surrender, that it was something that kind of took over the person. So in those contexts, I can see where a sense of surrender, that it was something that kind of took over the person. So in those contexts, I can see where a sense of sort of moral beauty might be part of that process. When you have a sense of moral beauty, you certainly are getting, first of all, it is probably a very intense kind of experience.

And so it fits that category. I think in many ways, when you're talking talking about that there is a sense of connectedness, a sense of unity, a sense of oneness, whether it's with humanity, whether it's with the universe, whether it's with God. And so I think there certainly are those aspects to it. And I think a sense of clarity is also an interesting one too, because what we're talking about there is that's where people understand the world. They can understand it from a moral perspective, but they can also understand it from a meaning perspective. So I would think that while that is certainly

a notion of moral beauty is certainly one way of getting towards those transcendent experiences, my guess is that it's probably grander than that. There are probably other ways that it can happen. And some of my favorite descriptions that we looked at in our survey were people who had these experiences where it just came out of nowhere. Really, they weren't even looking for it. It just happened to them. And they suddenly saw the world in a different way. They understood the world

differently. And I certainly think morals come, a sense of ethics and morals comes along with that process. How do we begin to think of what's right, what's wrong, based on this new understanding of things? So I'm sure it can cut both ways. But I think, at least from my perspective, there seems to be so many different ways in which people can engage these kinds of experiences. And that's also a part of how I think about neurotheology as being a kind of jigsaw puzzle, if you will, that there are many different pieces to this puzzle.

And so for some people, these experiences come through practices like meditation and prayer for others, it's through rituals, through others, it's psychedelics, through others, it's near death experiences. Some it's through disorders like seizures and things like that. So there, and the list goes on and on. And so there are many different ways that people can engage these kinds of experiences. To me, part of what I've talked about in my own work is that there's this kind of large network of brain

structures that become part of this process. So it's not just one part of our brain that turns on when we have a spiritual experience, but there's these many different parts that all can become active in different kinds of ways. And when you look at the richness and diversity of these kinds of experiences, I think it makes sense because going back to what we were saying a little while ago, for some people, these experiences are incredibly emotional. And for some it's all cognitive for some, it's a God experience for some. It's it is a moral experience.

So there are so many different ways in which these experiences can be engaged that it takes, they can activate this system in a lot of different ways. And of course, the brain is connected to the body. So as I often like to say, if there's a spiritual part of ourselves, it's really the whole person. It's all the different parts of our brain that enable us to have these different experiences. It's how that is connected to the body. And that's why whether one does meditation, prayer, rituals, there are so many different pathways to these kinds of experiences. Andrew, the reason I was asking it is for people who I think there are billions of them now

who are feeling disconnected, insignificant, lonely. I was just wondering if using transcendence and an easier way to find it could create a greater sense of mattering in their lives. That's where I was going. And if moral beauty was an easier way to access it could create a greater sense of mattering in their lives. That's where I was going. And if moral beauty was an easier way to access it, could that, by showing compassion, by showing kindness, could that trigger it more often and make them regain mattering? But it sounds like they're, from what you just described, there are many ways and it

depends on the person. Right, exactly. And I think that is a wonderful pathway and that can see all of humanity and the goodness in all of humanity and help them feel connected that way. For some people it's meditation and for some people it's prayer. And so, and of course there's thousands of different practices of meditation and prayer. And as someone who lives in this world of integrative medicine as a doctor, there's, to me, it's never a one size fits all.

It's finding the right combination to the lock for each person. And again, that's a little bit of where I think neurotheology can help because we can find general approaches that seem to work. People can say, well, here are broad categories that generally can work for people. And so maybe through those kinds of general categories we can help these people who are really having a problem and feeling that sense of disconnect and that sense of loneliness. We can say well you know maybe you can try this pathway or have you tried this pathway and see what kind of resonates with them and then help them to try to figure out the ways of engaging

those pathways and hopefully the way that will work for. Well, and that's one of the reasons I've been so excited to have you, Dave Vago and Lisa Miller on the show to really explore how our spiritual health impacts our overall health. And I know we've got to close now, Andrew, and it was such an honor to have you on the show. If listeners wanna learn more about your work and all the books that you've written,

where's the best place for them to go? The best place is my website, which is just andrewnewberg, N-E-W-B-E-R-G.com. And I have a description of the books and articles and a lot of that conversation there. They can also follow me and my explorations on Instagram, which is just dr.andrewnewberg. And hopefully we can all follow these investigations together.

Well, thank you so much for being on the show today. It was such an honor to have you. Thanks so much. And that's a wrap on this powerful conversation with Dr. Andrew Newberg. From the neuroscience of belief to the healing power of spiritual practice to how our brains help us make meaning even in the face of suffering. Today's episode reminds us of something deeply human, that the search for purpose

isn't abstract, it's biological, that faith, awe, and wonder aren't soft, they're scientifically essential, and that feeling connected to something greater than ourselves is what gives life its shape, coherence, and vitality. As you reflect on this episode, here are a few key takeaways to carry with you. Our brains are wired for belief, and those beliefs can profoundly shape our emotional and physical well-being. Practices like meditation, prayer, and gratitude don't just make us feel better. They literally rewire the brain towards resilience. Spirituality, whether religious or secular, is a vital tool for navigating trauma, uncertainty,

and meaning-making. And the more we understand the relationship between mind, mattering, and mystery, the more equipped we are to build lives of intention and inner peace. Dr. Newberg's research is a bridge between science and soul, and his work offers a framework for anyone seeking healing, depth, and clarity. If today's conversation resonated with you, I encourage you to check out his books, especially the varieties of spiritual experience. You'll find links in the show notes at passionstruck.com. If you're new to the podcast, don't forget our curated episode starter packs at Spotify or passionstruck.com slash starter packs. Want to keep the conversation

going? Join the ignition room, our private community for high performers seeking intentional growth. If you found value in today's episode, I'd love it if you leave a five-star review on Apple Podcast or Spotify. It helps us grow and reach more people who are ready to live more intentionally. Coming up next on Passion Struck, I sit down with Dr. Tiffany Moon, a physician, entrepreneur, and advocate for a heartfelt conversation about identity burnout and what it truly means to lead with authenticity in a high-performance world. Some people want to drag you back to your old self, and it's because they don't like change or they like the

old you and they're uncomfortable with you changing but as I've gotten to different levels of my life I've had to let some friends go not like breaking up with them or not that I don't care about them anymore my single girlfriends that want to go out and have girls wine night on Thursdays for 3 hours I don't have time for that right now in my life. So I think in different seasons of your life,

different people come in and out and that's okay. Until then, live boldly, lead with intention, and as always, live life passion strung.