Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Brian Lowery on How You Discover Your Authentic Self EP 330

Episode Date: August 10, 2023

Welcome to an intriguing episode of the Passion Struck podcast! Get ready to embark on an extraordinary voyage of self-discovery as we dive into the mysteries of our very being. I'm excited to introduce our guest, Social Psychologist and Stanford Professor Brian Lowery, a recognized expert in social identity and human behavior. Our conversation centers around Lowery's latest book, Selfless: The Social Creation of “You.” Want to learn the 12 philosophies that the most successful people use to create a limitless life? Pre-order John R. Miles’s new book, Passion Struck, releasing on February 6, 2024. Full show notes and resources can be found here: https://passionstruck.com/brian-lowery-discover-your-authentic-self/  Beyond Boundaries: Navigating the Intricacies of our Authentic Self with Brian Lowery In a world where self-understanding often feels elusive, we take a profound dive into the intricacies of selfhood. Join us as we navigate the labyrinth of thoughts, emotions, and actions that shape our very existence. With each passing day, we explore the complexities of identity, transcending conventional definitions and uncovering the inseparable interplay between our lives and the universe around us. Brought to you by Netsuite by Oracle: Visit netsuite.com/passionstruck to defer payments of a FULL NetSuite implementation for six whole months. Brought to you by Lifeforce: Join me and thousands of others who have transformed their lives through Lifeforce's proactive and personalized approach to healthcare. Visit MyLifeforce.com today to start your membership and receive an exclusive $200 off. Brought to you by Indeed: Claim your SEVENTY-FIVE DOLLAR CREDIT now at Indeed dot com slash PASSIONSTRUCK. Brought to you by OneSkin. Get 15% off OneSkin with our code [PassionStruck] at #oneskinpod. Brought to you by Hello Fresh. Use code passion 50 to get 50% off plus free shipping!  --► For information about advertisers and promo codes, go to: https://passionstruck.com/deals/  Like this show? Please leave us a review here -- even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter or Instagram handle so we can thank you personally! --► Prefer to watch this interview: https://youtu.be/POnEap0OVRI  --► Subscribe to Our YouTube Channel Here: https://youtu.be/QYehiUuX7zs  Want to find your purpose in life? I provide my six simple steps to achieving it - passionstruck.com/5-simple-steps-to-find-your-passion-in-life/ Catch my interview with Marshall Goldsmith on How You Create an Earned Life: https://passionstruck.com/marshall-goldsmith-create-your-earned-life/  Watch the solo episode I did on the topic of Chronic Loneliness: https://youtu.be/aFDRk0kcM40  Want to hear my best interviews from 2023? Check out my interview with Seth Godin on the Song of Significance and my interview with Gretchen Rubin on Life in Five Senses. ===== FOLLOW ON THE SOCIALS ===== * Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/passion_struck_podcast * Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/johnrmiles.c0m  Learn more about John: https://johnrmiles.com/  Passion Struck is now on the AMFM247 broadcasting network every Monday and Friday from 5–6 PM. Step 1: Go to TuneIn, Apple Music (or any other app, mobile or computer) Step 2: Search for “AMFM247” Network

Coming up next on Passion Struck, we make decisions not just how we interact with people, but who we interact with at all based on these superficial cues. And so we don't really have the opportunity to engage with as many people in this deep away as we might for those reasons. And that's really a hard thing to overcome because all the evidence points to just the strong tribal nature of human beings. The nature of the groups shift around all the times. There's nothing inherent in the groups is just that we tend to think in terms of groups and behave accordingly. Welcome to PassionStruct. Hi, I'm your host, John Armeils, and on the show,

we decipher the secrets, tips, and guidance of the world's most inspiring people and turn their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you. Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself. If you're new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays. We have long form interviews the rest of the week with guest ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries, and athletes. Now, let's go out there and become passion struck. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to episode 330 of passion

struck. Incidentally, ranked by Apple is one of the top 10 most popular health podcasts. And the number one alternative health podcast. And thank you to all who come back weekly to listen and learn how to live better, be better, and impact the world. PassionStrike is now on syndicated radio on the AMFM247 National Podcast, and you can catch us on your evening commute Monday and Friday from 5-6pm Eastern Time. Links will be in the show notes. If you're new to the show, thank you so much for being here, or you simply want to introduce

this to a friend or a family member. We now have episode starder packs, which are collections of our fans' favorite episodes that we organize and convene topics to give any new listener a great way to get acclimated to everything we do here on the show. Either go to Spotify or passionstruck.com slash starder packs to get started. In case you missed it, earlier in the week, I interviewed mental health expert and neuroscientist Dr. Caroline Leif, who was known for her science-backed mind management techniques. We discussed her brand new book, How to Help Your Child Clean Up with Mental Mass.

Now let's talk about today's episode. Amidst the vastness of our experiences, there's perhaps nothing more intimately familiar, and yet, anigmatic than ourselves. From the very inception of our existence, we have been in constant companionship with our own being, perversing the intricacies of each waking moment. Yet despite this unwavering presence, the question persists, who, or more fundamentally, what truly defines our essence? In this profound exploration of selfhood, my guest, social psychologist, and Stanford professor Brian Lowry and I embark on a quest to unravel the mysteries that lie within.

With each passing day, we navigate the labyrinth of our thoughts, emotions, and actions seeking a deeper understanding of our authentic nature. We grapple with the intricacies of identity, contemplating the intricate tapestry that forms the essence of our being. While we may be inclined to perceive ourselves as discrete individuals separate from the world around us, this journey of self-discovery challenges such notions. It backens us to recognize the inseparable interplay between our existence and the greater cosmos that envelops us. It implores us to question the boundaries we have constructed, urging us to transcend the confines of conventional definitions. In the interview we discuss Bryan's new book Selfless, The Social Creation of You, and delve into the deaths of introspection.

We peel back the layers of conditioning, societal expectation, and self-imposed limitations, allowing our authentic selves to emerge from the shadows. We confront the complexities that arise. We come face to face with the fluidity of our identities, the kaleidoscope of roles we inhabit, and the multifaceted dimensions of our existence. We're endearing to ask the profound question of who or what am I? We embark on a transformative journey towards the boundless delts of self-understanding. Brian Lowry is the Walter Kenneth Kilpatrick professor of organizational behavior and senior associate dean for academic affairs at the Stanford Graduate School of Business. So so psychologist my training he studies how individuals perceive inequality in the steps they take if any to reduce it. As a professor, Brian likes to shine a light on how people function in the world in business

and beyond. Self-reflection is a key component of that discovery. His classes are experimental by design and encouraging people to understand and reflect on how they show up, how they behave, and what that means, what an incredible episode I have for you today. Thank you for choosing PassionStruct and choosing me, be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life now.

Let that journey begin. Brian. Nice to be your job. Thanks for having me. As I was reaching your background, researching your background, some of the courses that you teach at Stanford really caught my eye, and one specifically I thought is needed for all future leaders. I wish I could have taken this earlier in my career, and it's called Leadership for Society, Big Arguments Courageous Leadership. and it's called Leadership for Society, big arguments, courageous leadership. Can you tell me about that course? Yes, it's a new program actually. It's only been around for a couple of years

and it's designed to give students the opportunity and space to explore a project they're passionate about that affects society. It's two parts. One is the course to help them with their project to connect them to the right people, to provide resources and the other one the daring dialogues is a combination of a webinar that I do on a theme and I talk to important guests. People who have thoughts and experiences in particular areas in society. So the last one, for example, focused on climate and the new kind of digital era.

And one of the people I've talked to was Eric Schmidt, for example. And then students who listen to that webinar then get together in small groups and have discussions about the topic of the day. And so it's a space for people to really lean into differences of opinion and try to understand different ways of thinking about really important issues that face society right now. Couple of the people that I've had on the podcast have been Don Moore, Max Bezerman, Peter Singer who are all peers of yours and they're really looking at the consequences

of our ethic behaviors. But one of the things that caught my eye about what you guys are teaching is courageous leadership. And having been myself a sea level and fortune 50 environments, it's difficult to be courageous. And I don't think people understand what it truly means to be a courageous leader. It's something that I was fortunate enough to learn from being in the military. But can you discuss just a little bit more about what you try to teach people about being a courageous leader? Yeah, part of it is understanding yourself, right? So what's motivating you?

So when you're in leadership positions, there are a lot of pressures. What are those pressures affecting you? And then also being really clear about what matters to you? What do you value? And their really clear about what matters to you. What do you value? In their situations where people won't agree with you. Their situations where people of good faith don't agree with you. How do you engage that effectively? How do you stand up for what you believe but also be open to other perspectives so you can

grow as well? The thing a big part of courage is not just persevering in the face of adversity, right? That's part of it or overcoming anxiety or fear, but it's also being willing to admit the need to grow and learn that you don't have all the answers, being willing to demonstrate some degree of vulnerability or humility, right? Because that allows for growth. And as a leader, I hope everyone out there, this leading is also looking to grow as a way to support their team or the people that follow them.

So that's a big part of what it is. How do you engage with multiple perspectives while maintaining your own moral compass? I think that is so important for any person to learn regardless of where you are in your leadership journey because along it and over time, you are going to be faced with different circumstances that will test you. And so having that core interpening of self is so important. And before we get into talking about self, Brian, I was introduced to you by Katie Melkman, and I wanted to ask

you about their behavioral change for good initiative, because I think it is doing a lot of good and bringing real-life application of behavioral change to the world. I was hoping I could get your perspective on it. Yeah, I love the work they're doing and And looking at data, really large sets of data to mine that for ways for people to improve their lives, to make better decisions, I think is incredibly important and innovative. We've gotten to this place now where so much data available.

And most of it, I think, is used to sell people stuff. It's mine to figure out how to better convince this consumer to buy this product or that product or how to squeeze a little bit or profit out of people. I don't think we've yet used that data effectively to improve people's lives, not just in terms of materialized by, can people to buy more things and make the economy run, but how to have improved people's health, how to improve people, the quality of people's relationships, and I really, the kind of work that Katie and others

are doing is really important on that front. So I applaud the work and the effort. Well, today we're going to be discussing the important work that you've been doing for over 25 years, and we're going to be discussing your great new book. I'm going to put it up here. It's called Selfless, the Social Creation of You. And we'll put a big splash on YouTube as well. But in the book, and I'm going to start out with this, you write that you are you. A bundle of experiences, once in need, actions taken and avoided, all made coherent because they flow from a single source, you. And I found that such a fascinating perspective.

And I wanted to ask you, through the lens of that quote, I think it would be ideal for the audience if you could introduce this concept of self and how it gives us coherence to the world around us. I think what I was describing there is what most people experience the self as, they experience it as a sense of lairity about themselves, I don't know what to say. So it's funny to talk about the self because it's so inextricable for my experience that it's tough to even put the language around to try to step back and talk about it sometimes. So, the sense of coherence is what most people experience of the self, the sense of, I'm

having this experience, and this experience connects to experience I had in the past. And it helps me understand this interaction I'm having right now, and I can use it to predict how I will behave in the future. All these things cohere together in a way that gives the sense of, I am me. And what I push against a little bit in the book is that feeling might not be completely accurate, right? Not that there isn't a self, but it might not be the same thing that it seems to be, or it may not be what it feels like. And by that sense of me, for most people, his experiences inside them, it's a little person in their head. And what I'm saying is, no, maybe that's not right.

Maybe it's constructed in community. It's constructed in the relationships you have that it's not emanating from inside you, but that it's being constructed with you outside of you. With that as a backdrop, and we're going to be discussing a lot more about those relationships, what function does self serve, and why do we even need self? Oh, that's a great question. I love this question. It's hard to say if we need self the way we experience it now or not. One of the things I talk about in the book is some historians of like classic societies or we think of like ancient Greeks and Romans. Some people argue that the self as we experience is today the way you experience yourself didn't exist in the same way

then as it does now. So do it. Is it necessary in terms of the way we experience it now? I don't know. But I think it's really useful in terms of situating you in the world. The sense that having a self allows you to understand what others expect of you. It allows you to make decisions about whether you want pie or cake or whether you want potato chips or broccoli, all these decisions that you make, your preferences, your responses to the

way people engage with you, all of these things are made coherent by your sense of self or by the self. But that's different from part of your question, which is like, as I experience it, is that the thing that I experience is that necessary? I don't know, maybe not. One other was a time in my career, and it's been about a decade ago where I really started to take a closer look at the idea of the self inside of me. And I have to admit, cracks started to emerge. I found that I was instead of being what I would have thought my authentic self, in some ways I was hiding

behind a mask of what I was being led to believe by society as opposed to who I truly was inside. And do you think that is something that impacts most people? I'm a professor, so I like to ask questions when people ask me questions. That's fine. Let's do it. It's possible that it's masks all the way down. That makes sense.

But that I simply mean that when you say you have a mask on I think what you probably mean and you can correct me from wrong is that you resented a self to people as a part based on what you thought people wanted you to be or what you were supposed to be. And there was a sense that that wasn't real. And then behind that mask there was something else. But it could be that what was behind that mask was just a different version of you. And maybe you felt for whatever reason more comfortable in that. But you could argue that also was just a mask. That an air is nothing but masks. If what you mean is a mask is something that is constructed in engagements with other people, right? So if I am right now with you, I'm being, I don't know, my piecat itself. And is this my real self? I don't know. People who met me in the world, but I behave this way, with I talk in the way I talk

now, but I answer questions the same way. I don't know. Probably not. But is that any less real than how I would behave if they did see me in the bar? I don't know. Be different for sure probably. But both of those things would be real. And if you saw me, if you were in a class of mine and you were sitting in the class and I'm teaching with that, be real. You know, I don't know what that means, but it'd be real for at that moment. And so all these things as we go through life are, you could argue our mask, right? So I think Shakespeare's all the world is a stage and we're all players. I'm sure I'm butchering it, but everybody gets the idea, right?

They were always playing with some role. You mean rushed and come up with that line? Child joke. and come up with that line. Okay. Well, I have to tell you one of the questions that I detest, and I'm sure everyone has gotten it is you someone walks up to you, starts having a conversation and says either who are you or what do you do? And the fact as you're explaining is we all have multiple

selves. So as I'm asked that question, I'm always thinking, well, I'm someone's child, I'm a parent. I've been a senior executive in the past. I'd love to say, oh, I love to vote. I'm an athlete, I'm a writer, I'm a podcaster, I'm a YouTuber. And what determines which one really depends on the given situation that I find myself and do you think that's true? 100%. It's a big part of the book. What I'm saying is it's a big part of where you are. And the biggest part of that is who you're with.

I mean, that broadly, right? So a number of the things you pointed out are relational. Like you're like, I'm a son, I'm a dad, right? Even being a sailor, I assume in part, you do it in a competitive team sport way, in which case other people are involved in that identity as well. And so many of our identities,

and I'd argue most of them depend on other people. You cannot be a dad if someone doesn't have a son or daughter if you don't have a child, right? And say you can't be someone's brother if you don't have a sibling. These things depend on other people. And that's one way to see what I'm saying that who you are is embedded in

and created by relationships and interactions. Someone said this and I thought it was really apt. It's like whenever you say, I, you maybe you should really be saying we. As I told you before we got on today, Thursday is one of my race days for sailing and you're absolutely right. When you walk on that boat, no one gives a hell what you do outside of whether you can perform or not on that boat, no one gives a hell what you do outside of whether you can perform or not on that boat.

It's so interesting because you rarely get that question. Everything is questions about your sailing experience, what position you like best on the boat, what boats you've sailed on, what you're most comfortable with, et cetera. So this situational aspect of self, as you said, is so important. But getting back to your question about the mask, for me, a fundamental discovery was reading Susan Keynes' book, Quiet, because going to the Naval Academy, then being in the military, then being in big four, consulting, and then the fortune 500 world.

Being an X-revert is what is really rewarded. And I always struggled with it because I felt like I was a fish out of water, and it wasn't until I read quiet that I really understood that I was an introvert and the reason I was so exhausted by the time I came home at night is because I was trying to be something that I wasn't because that's what everyone else around me was. And so that's part of the mask that I was talking about. And part of the reason I shifted to doing what I'm doing now, because I'm more comfortable doing it and don't have to deal with 100% of those extroverted interactions that I used to have to deal with.

It's interesting being introvert and doing podcasting by the way. There's an introvert's choice, but I wonder how that feels to you because you're on stage and You you push it out. I mean curious how you think about it Well, I'll tell you I dread looking at The original videos or listening to the original podcast because I was definitely not comfortable in my own shoes, but I think not comfortable in my own shoes, but I think parts of it that I love is the research and the writing aspect that I get to do. So having an opportunity to read all these books, do the research that I do on the guests and then my solo episodes, I find really fulfilling. And then over time I've just gotten more

comfortable now that I'm a few hundred into these interviews of interviewing people and knowing how to connect. But if I had to do five, six, seven of these a day, I think it would get very tiresome. Yeah, I think it would be really tough. And I'm curious how, when you connect, like how is it, how do you do it? What are your techniques to connect?

The most important thing for me is I don't want to give the listener the same interview that they're going to get from someone else. And one way I differentiate that is through the lens that I do the show. But more importantly, I try to do research on the guest so that I'm asking different questions than other people are going to elicit. And then I also read every author's book. So I try to pick quotes out of it that I did with you or other things because I think you learn a lot about a person by reading their books. And I think by doing that, it brings me closer to the author. It's in my way of showing the author respect because having a book coming out myself,

I understand how many years and the effort that goes behind creating these. So to me, it's a bit of respect to the authors for the works that they're producing. Yeah, well, I'll say I really appreciate that. And one of the things that I love about that answer is part of what you're describing is a co-creation of the author and you in the interaction. So right now you've read my book, you brought up my quote, and you're asking me questions. Other people don't ask me. So we are having a really unique interaction, but in that I get to be a unique person, and you get to be a unique person in those interactions. And in unique interaction, but in that I get to be a unique person and you get to be a unique person in those interactions. And in this interaction, other interactions you have with authors,

and out of what I try to point out to people in the book is every interaction has that possibility. And every person is a whole world, which is amazing, right? So you read the book, but even if I hadn't written a book, there would still be all those experiences in there. And what a joy to be able to engage with people, like to be able to engage with you and hear about your sailing and your process and how you came to do this, it changes me and being able to interact with you. And that's one of the things I think people miss when they think of themselves as singular islands as opposed to people that are being constructed in their interactions and their relationships

and their conversations. Well, I have to tell you last week when I went sailing, I hit like an hour worth of traffic. I didn't have my podcast all complete for the day and I get on the boat. I don't belong to the club, so I have to park about a half a mile away. So I'm late for the boat. I'm running to get there. I get on the boat. My mind is everywhere, but on the boat. And then we start doing the race and it was as if I had never even sailed before in my entire life.

When I've been doing it for 30 years. I felt so bad, but it is interesting. I use as an example because our self really does fluctuate given the circumstances. One of the things I found interesting in your introduction was that you wrote that our felt experience of the world differs from what research may show us. And I thought it was interesting how you brought up some of the different researchers over history. And I was hoping you could explain that a little bit. I'll give one example that I like to talk about.

This is called this en-Facement effect. So in this effect, do you look at someone else? They're sitting across from you in this effect, you're looking at someone else. They're sitting across from you in the desk, let's say, and you feel somebody stroke you cheek lightly. And in one of the conditions, you see someone else, the person you're sitting across from, you see their cheek gets stroke

at the exact same time in the same way. In the other condition, you get your face stroke, but you don't see anyone else as face getting stroke, the person next to you. Okay, so then they do this thing where they show you photos. So there's a photo of you and a photo of the person you were looking at. And then they morph the photos.

So there's everything from 100% you to 100% them and 50, 50 and a lot in between. And they show you the photos sequentially. So they just show a photo and they're like, all right, the question is only, is that photo mostly you, or mostly the person you were looking at? And obviously when it's 100% what's you, you're not confused about what you look like,

I assume people know what they look like. But what's interesting is when it gets to be close to 50, 50. So let's say it's 52% the other person and 48% you. Then it's a little harder. And what you find is people who felt their face getting stroke and saw the other person's face getting stroke at the same time, they tend to think a face that's a little bit more the other person is mostly them. But people who didn't have that simultaneous stroking don't make that mistake. And what in essence is happening is you're starting to see that person's face as a part of you. And I find that really

interesting because it suggests that you don't just know who you are. You don't just know your face or your face because of the experience that you don't just know who you are. You don't just know your face, or your face because of the experience that you're having with it. And that's probably not how it feels. It feels on me, on me, I'll never confuse anyone else with me, but this study suggests that you can connect

a number of other studies too, the point in the same direction that turns out you can probably confuse yourself with other people. That almost certainly is happening to some extent and you just don't notice it. There are also studies, for example, that can produce out-of-body experiences. You feel like you're in your body and that's the only way it could be, but you can systematically get people to feel as if their self is outside of their body.

These things just challenge the feeling that we have day to day of how things work or how things must be and suggest it. No, it's not, it just feels that way. It might not be a reflection of some reality, right? It's not objective truth. It's just the way it feels. And there's all sorts of stuff, all kinds of studies, things like, if I tell you that someone who was in your same room didn't get their towels washed every day, you know, that's like your towels washed every day then, if I tell you that a good environmentalist doesn't wash their towels every day. That's strange.

It's just strange that you're more influenced by being told about someone in your room did and being told about what the environment is that is. So there's all these, there's tons of studies in social psychology which provide evidence that the way you think the world is is probably not actually how it is. I'm going to just jump on that. It got me to thinking of this interview I just released with Dacker Keltner who you might know at Berkeley. And Dacker just wrote this great book called A, and one of the things that was so shocking to me when I read his research was I think of A, historically, as being out in nature and seeing

something like the Grand Canyon or the birth of a child or being at a wedding or perhaps being at a funeral or someone who's close to dying. He found that people experience it most during moments of what he calls moral beauty, which is ourself seeing others perform an act of kindness towards someone else. And I thought it was really beautiful. And it is an interesting way to perceive yourself through the acts of others.

I don't know if you've ever thought about that. Yeah, I haven't thought about that in particular. I mean, I think there's a degree of identification with other people. And I could imagine that when you identify with someone who's engaging in behaviors like that that it has a deep effect on you or sure. But I just think about it. I really love that description. I know Dacker, he's a great guy, but I haven't yet the chance

to read the book, but I'll check it out, but I really like that description of and response to this kind of moral behavior, moral law. It's really nice. Yeah, that's what I felt. I felt it was really an interesting way that people can start viewing the world differently and find more frequently because oftentimes it's so elusive to find it. because oftentimes it's so elusive to find it. You wrote that how we see another person is in some ways influenced by what we have been unconsciously in many ways taught to see through the people that we see. And it's interesting,

and I'm just gonna use an example of this. Last year, I ended up interviewing Pro Bowl cornerback named Sean Springs and prior to interviewing them, and I had never met him prior to that. I think of this tough football player who played for the Seahawks and the Washington Redskins. And I was preparing myself to meet someone

who I thought would be similar to many other professional football players that I had met. And when I actually met him, he came across completely different. He was extremely vulnerable, very empathetic, open about some of the struggles that he had faced in his life. But the thing I wanted to ask you is, how do we see people in a way that we have been taught to see them and not as how we should see them? Not sure if I'm asking it the right way, but hopefully you get. Yeah, I get what you're saying.

So I talk about this and I think everyone has this experience. If you go and then go to a bar or to a coffee shop, or just somewhere where you might go by yourself and sit down and other people are around, maybe then sit close to other people. You have a sense of the art because of the groups, they appear to belong to. That could be age, it could be ethnicity, it could be if you have a sense of what their

profession is, right? All these things influence what we think the person is because we are tribal beings, we belong to groups, we put other people in groups and then we assign people attributes as a function of those groups. And so we make decisions, not just how we interact with people, but who we interact with at all based on these kind of superficial cues. And so we don't really have the opportunity to engage with as many people in this deep away as we might for those reasons.

And that's really a hard thing to overcome because again, all the evidence points to just the strong tribal nature of human beings, the nature of the groups shift around all the time. There's nothing inherent in the groups is just that we tend to think in terms of groups and behave accordingly. Well, one of the things you bring up about those groups is the impact of structure and how it fills an existential need. And when I think of structure, I think of religions that people belong to could be beliefs, it could be social clubs, things like that. How does structure impact ourself?

Oh, I would say the self is a structure. So remember we opened by talking about the sense of coherence. Like that is structure, right? You have a sense that who you were a week from the, a week ago is who you are now because it all gets fit together in this structure. I think you just have this sense that the world is orderly

when it probably is not orderly at all. But we impose that, right? Religions do this in a very explicit way. But we all are looking for and seeing structure in the world as a way to navigate it. There's a way to make it more understandable to make it safer. So this is just, again, a part of human nature. There's studies that show if you are in a state of state,

let's call it anxiety, I'll simplify, and your show will say white noise, static. You're more likely to see something in that static than if you're already in a calm or state that people seek out. When there's uncertainty, people seek out structure, and they impose it even when it doesn't exist. In terms of self, my claim is not that it structure doesn't exist, it's just that we internalize it in a way that allows for us to think in terms of a coherent self.

That is, in many people's's minds mostly invariant over time. We feel like we're the same people, you feel like, no, I'm different, but they don't really mean it. What they mean is I have learned, but they don't mean that I am not the same me. I was usually, but I'd argue maybe the self is fluid in ways that we don't acknowledge. Well, I'm going to switch directions here. I have been trying to do a number of episodes on the topics of the epidemics of loneliness and hopelessness that are impacting so many people's version of self. And I have seen through many of these discussions,

the impact that the digital environment is having on our lives both positively and negatively. And I recently had on Seton Hall Professor Guy Abernstein, who had a book called On Wired, I also had, you're peered down the road, Gloria Marcon, about her research on attention span. And where I wanted to focus is you wrote a research paper in 2022 on the implications of digital environments on self. And I was hoping you could discuss

some of your findings. This is in collaboration with a colleague of mine who's now a professor in London, Nath's, Tallahfere. What we basically argue is that technologies we currently use it might be hindering the development of self. When in that said earlier that the self changes its fluid, even people don't really completely accept that they do expect the self to evolve. So by that example, most people don't want to think

about the medical cells who they are today. If you're an adult now, you might cringe, you might, but most people look back, wow, happy I made it through. Maybe I'm projecting, maybe that's just me. But part of that is because our relationships evolve, like we have new friends, obviously we have new experiences, but memories fade, right? You remember that it's going a little bit different, which allows you to evolve or some of the things that were painful, you don't have to be confronted

with every day. And now it says if history never goes away, there's footprints everywhere. So that's one thing we point to, the increased difficulty of forgetting because of the digital world now. And we also point to the use of algorithms that tells you what you should like. And I get why people like it because they're efficient and often they're right. If they put something in front of you that you should like, there's a good chance you will like it.

But it also reduces the possibility of serendipity of finding something that you didn't think you would like and liking it. I find something you should not like, but actually enjoy. That becomes harder to do when you allow algorithms based on your past experiences and experiences of people like you to dictate the choices

that are presented to you. And so when you start thinking about that, everything from music to the books we read, so if you're doing dating apps so that people you might date, the options being shown to you are being curated based on who you were, on people like you, and which makes it difficult to become a different you. Those are a couple things that we talk about in that article. Well, I think the other thing that's interesting is these influencers that so many people are following and who are influencing the way people are living

their lives. As you and I were just talking, one more on a podcast for a different self than more for a different self than we're in a different situation. So it was interesting because when you think of these mommy bloggers, for instance, that is just their persona when they're influencing someone. It's not who they are in real life.

And yet these personas that people put on are actually influencing culture in many ways. And in some ways to a very negative realm because especially for women, I think more influencers are females than males. And I just look at the repercussions that it had even on my own daughter of seeing herself and her own body image through what other people are trying to project and not the fact that everyone is beautiful and who they are within themselves. It is tough.

Yes, really tough. I, it's really tough. I think it's certainly the case that influences are part of the culture and as such, they're influencing the culture, not just a few thousands, a few million, even people who engage with their content. And this is again something that is important to keep in mind that I think people know, but maybe don't engage with as deeply as they should, which is hard to be outside of the culture you're in and everyone is influencing it. So you don't have to engage with the content

of an influencer to be affected by it. And how does that happen? It happens because people who do engage with that content are interacting with you at the coffee shop or at the library or at the grocery store and they are influencing you in ways that you sometimes can see and sometimes can't that we are all connected as a part of the communities that we're in. And these lines of influence flow through these interactions and relationships, right? It doesn't require direct contact

Let's say an influence to be affected by them because we're also interconnected and those connections are changing who we are They're changing the way we see the world and I think if we take that seriously we can maybe engage with it more effectively One of the key points that you bring up throughout the book is that society is an intricate social game. And what are the give and takes of how others create us and how we create them? When I interact with you and accept you as a podcaster, I am in some sense demanding that you be a podcaster. At least in this interaction, right? You talked about sailing, but in this interaction, you're not a sailor, really, right?

And it'd be hard to be a sailor in this interaction. And that sense, I am affecting who you are in this moment and who you can be, even though you're the host. And I'm the guest. It's still a co-creation, right? And I am a book author and I am a respondent to your questions and that only allows me so much range in this interaction. And that's how all of our interactions go.

They're all like that, right? We are giving people a certain amount of leeway and they are in return affecting what we can be. That's the give and take. For example, we have an agreement about who we each are. We didn't talk about it. It's just a part of the interaction that we evolved in the context of the conversation and the situation as it was set up.

Again, that's how all of our interactions go. And I think it can feel confining, but it also is necessary and for many people comforting because it helps me understand how to be in this interaction and what a successful interaction would look like. And it feels good to have a smooth, interesting conversation with you, right? And the price I pay for that is, who's sent it to prices, I am limited in what I can be to make this work.

Well, I hope you're not limiting it too much. And it seems to think it's fine. I think this is the book. In the book, there's book, the center of the book is a fundamental tension between freedom and self. So the claim is that the self is a construction and relationships. Right now, you're participating, constructing who I am.

And any definition, any construction is requires limits. Right? If there are no boundaries, then it's unclear who I am. And so even though there is a, in terms of freedom, there's also a huge benefit in terms of clarity, in terms of a sense of self in this moment. And that often is not just comforting, but rewarding. It feels good. It feels good to have clarity about who you are. And you cannot

have that without other people. I'm glad you went there because I was going to ask you, what does it mean to have freedom? that clarity about who you are, and you cannot have that without other people. I'm glad you went there because I was gonna ask you, what does it mean to have freedom? So you just nailed it. Ha ha ha. Yeah, freedom is a really interesting thing from my perspective and it's getting more attention lately, but mostly because of the current politics,

I think it's a concept that really is worth thinking about. Because it's this word that has all these positive connotations in our society, like, you know, written, like, freedom gives this patina of virtue to everything it touches, right? Like, more freedom is better, like, freedom of speech, academic freedom, parental freedoms, put freedom next to it, and in all of a sudden sounds like good and worthy. But the reality is freedom is also terrifying. And most people that argue don't really want old freedom. Not because they're weak or anything like that, but because you would be lost, you would be untethered. What would it mean to not be a father, not be a son, not be a sailor, not be a piecaster, to have the things that you described as who you are to have all those go away.

That would not be a better life, I would argue. Well, it is different when you think about it that way, that in some ways freedom could cause us to have conflict within ourselves and by having these identities it creates a sense of self that in some ways grounds us and protects us. And yeah, and you write in the book that the contents of our identities can also sometimes But the contents of our identities can also sometimes be in conflict. Do you think that can be impacted by the freedom that we have or that we don't have? If there was no such thing as gender, right, then all the conflicts that arise as a function of gender, which seems to be conflicts, but you'd have given up all the benefits associated with the idea of gender, right?

So this is the kind of trade off. So I think most people on just stay with gender see gender is a big part of how they understand themselves. Like in our world it's organized in that way. When you go shopping for clothes, you know what stories you should go into and the kind of clothes you should buy generally based on your gender.

Now, obviously there's nothing about written in stone and there are people who have their friend views about what makes them comfortable and what they should do and that's fine. But this concept of gender serves a huge organizing role. And here, I just want to be clear that I'm not saying that gender should exist the way it exists right now or that it has to. It can exist in all sorts of ways, but I think, again, it's a good example of a limitation that most people accept because it provides a degree of clarity and a degree of grounding and being feeling tethered to the world.

And in fact, when people's conception of gender doesn't meet other people's conceptions, it can be really painful because gender is so important in terms of organizing society when you feel like your sense of gender doesn't match the societies. There's going to be a lot of discomfort associated with that. I would assume. So that's again an example of if you've got rid of

it, but there'd be more freedom, yes. But the world would be better. I don't know. Maybe not. But I think this unexamined elevation of the concept of freedom is probably a mistake. Well, I can't have you on the show without talking about purpose and meaning and passion. And in the book, you write that to live life as you would like requires knowing what you want in the first place. What is the link between self and having meaning or purpose? You might have had people in here to talk about this already. And say, I don't know,

there's a research on meaning in life or the experience of meaning in life. And in that research, people talk about three. And people use different language, but here I'll just give the three, maybe most common components that are necessary to have

the experience of meaning in life. So one is coherence, right? You have to be coherent, the world has to feel coherent. That's one coherence. The So one is coherence, right? You have to be coherent. The world has to feel coherent. That's one coherence. The other one is purpose. So you have to get up and there has to be something that you want to do. Like these are generally thought of as goals, right? Like you get up and there's something to do. There's some reason to get up in the morning. Get out of the bed. The third one is significance, which means that there's something more than the present moment

that matters, right? That you matter in some way. So people call it significant, some people call it mattering. So those are the three things. So it's coherence, it's purpose, and then it's significance. And again, you can think of significance as mattering. Those are three things. So what does that do with the self? So I think the self is a primary importance for two of those. So first coherence, without a self, there cannot be the experience of meaning because that meaning has to attach to you, right? You want your life to feel meaningful. There's a you at the center of that. So you have to

have a self or that part. So that's the easiest one. Then purpose, that one is like the least tightly tied to self. But I think this one is, we haven't talked about yet, that I find really interesting. Significance to me is about time. Meaning, do you matter? Will you matter when you're gone, even? And the self is interesting in that it can kind of function like a time machine.

So when you have a self, you can project it back into the future by your feeling of connections to I don't know your grandparents, your great grandparents, or the land your ancestors were from, right? People have the sense of connection to a history that quite predated them. That's interesting, right? So you can feel connected to the past, but you can also project yourself into the future. Maybe the most commonly thing about that right now is the country you're from. So people want to feel like they're contributing to their nation in some way, or they feel not everyone, but a lot of people deeply connected to their nation. And you can think about that connection as a way to outlive your physical self, because

when you die, your nation will still be here. So anything you contribute to the nation will continue to live. And so the self by allowing you to project into the future allows you to have a feeling of significance and makes you feel like you matter. I matter. This thing I did mattered and not matter just right now, but mattered in some bigger way. And so without that, since of self, being able to connect to something bigger than you, it'd be hard to have a sense of significance

of matter and it'd be hard to have meaning in life. So I think the self is like a time machine, which is, I don't know, it's something about that I love, right? Like you yourself can continue to live even after you're gone. And there's also actually research on this that suggests that when you're afraid of death, you try to hold on tightly to identities that allow you to live beyond your death like connections to your country for example. Well an interesting interview I did was with Benjamin Hardy and he has a book on the science

of future self but he also has one he wrote with Dan Sullivan called The Gap in the Gain. And it's a really interesting concept because what they're saying is that when we measure ourselves so often we're doing it in the gap. And that is we're trying to compare ourselves to other people that we see versus the gain is when we compare ourselves to our past self and the gains that we've made between the two. But I think, and I'm just as guilty as it is anyone, it's hard not to compare yourself to others. It's hard for me not to want to compare myself the J Shetty because he's killing it. But when you do that, you're comparing yourself to a false expectation of someone who has been doing something longer than you as a completely different approach, different identity themselves. So it is a risky thing to do. Yeah, this is another way of us knowing

ourselves. We may not be the most healthy, but even that imaginary relationship you're making sense of yourself. And I think this is why it's hard to do it, right? There's this constant desire to try to situate yourself in the social world. Well, Brian, I have two questions left for you. And one of them peaked my interests. You said in the book that when we define ourselves, we're describing limits that make us. Can you explain what you meant by that? Yeah. Often when we think about definitions, we think of describing what is, but definitions also require you to say what isn't, right? It's a drawing a circle around the thing, like a tree is not grass, a tree is not a bush.

When you say what a tree is, you're either implicitly or explicitly saying what it is not. And the same thing is true of us. Like when you say I am a thing, there's all these things that are being left unsaid of what you are not, but that are implied. So when you define the self, you are drawing a boundary around yourself, which has to exclude certain things. And I think the boundaries we draw are probably wrong, right?

We're excluding things that probably should be a part of what we're defining. Absolutely, because the way others see us is different than we perceive ourselves, and they even perceive our strengths and weaknesses differently than we see them ourselves. And my last question for you, and it's one that I'd love to ask authors, is if someone picked up your book, what would be a core thing that you would want them to get from it? Oh, I appreciate that question. I have a very clear idea of what I want people to get from it.

Let me start by saying what I don't. People are people to get from it. The book is not designed to be prescriptive. If you read the book, you've noticed this that I don't tell people what they should do. In part, because people's lives are so complex that who am I to say how they should live their life? That's tough. But what I hope people do when they read the book is to let it wash over them and to really consider the possibilities that are implied or explicitly stated in the book. And what I hope people walk away with is a sense of awe about what's possible in life and who they are and how big they are and how big they could be. I hope

they walk away with that same feeling of awe about every person they bump into, who those people are, who they could be. And what it means to interact with other human beings, the profound nature of human connection and the construction of each other in those connections and the responsibility that implies and the gift that it is. So that's what I hope people give. A simpler level, what I hope happens is that it raises questions for people

that it expands their view of the world, that the world becomes a bigger, more interesting place, mostly through the quality of the questions that the book raises for them. That's what I hope. That's one of the better answers I've ever gotten. So I loved it. Thank you.

Thank you. I appreciate that. So, if the audience wants to learn more about Brian Lowry, where is the best place for them to do that at? That's great. So, I have a podcast called Know What K N O W, and the website know what.com which has the podcast episodes. I also have a a webinar that is the class you asked about is available to the public so people can see past interviews and you'll see they can see the upcoming course if they like that generally runs in

the wintertime and writings are up on the website as well. And obviously, I hope people buy the book, selfless, the social construction of you. And yeah, any updates will be available on the website. No way to come. Brian, thank you so much for giving us the honor of being here today on PassionStruck. I really enjoyed it. Thank you so much for having me. It was fun conversation. I thoroughly enjoyed that interview with Dr. Brian Lry, and I wanted to thank Brian and Katie Melkman for the honor and privilege of having him appear here on the show. Links to all things

Brian will be in the show notes at passionstruck.com. Please use their website links if you purchase any of the books from the guests that we feature here on the show. All proceeds go to supporting the show. Advertiser deals and discount codes are in one convenient place at passionstruck.com slash deals. You can find us also on our YouTube channels at both John Armiles as well at passionstruck.com slash deals. You can find us also on our YouTube channels at both John Armiles as well as PassionStruck Clips. I am also now on syndicated radio on the AMFM247 National Broadcast. Catch us on your evening commute Monday and Friday

from five to six PM Eastern time. Links will be in the show notes. And my book PassionStruck, which releases in February, is now available for pre-order. Links will also be in the show notes. You can catch me on LinkedIn, where you can also sign up for my newsletter, or you can find me at JohnnerMiles on all the different social platforms, where I post daily, please

go and check it out. If you're about to hear a preview of the PassionStruck podcast interview I did with Rebecca Rosen, who is a psychic medium, an author of the new book, What Is Heaven? Rebecca serves as a mediator between two realms. The physical world, which entails everyday problems, in the spiritual world where she has gained insight, revealing that every individual is born with a unique mission. And it is our responsibility to fulfill it in this Earth School. You're making choices in the frequency of shadow, in ego, you're disconnected. And it's a very limited place.

It's a very fear based place. And that's what creates our depression, our struggle, our frustration, our anxiety. And that is a definition of a living hell. But it doesn't have to be that way. It's not supposed to be that way. When you plug in every day to your higher self, to your team and spirit, to your source, whatever you call it. And it becomes a collaboration or co creation with this divine energy. You then show up and connect into those frequencies of light. And you make choices from light, which is that aligned place, the place that connects to love and compassion. Remember we rise by lifting others.

So share the show with those that you love and care about. And if you found today's episode useful, and you know someone who wants to learn more about how to become selfless, then please share this episode with them. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so that you can live what you listen. And until next time, go out there and be Cash and Striker.