Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Coach Matt Doherty on How You Rebound From Life’s Toughest Moments EP402

Starting point is 00:00:00 coming up next on passion struck. I did not manage change properly. And that really was tough to shake. The only way to overcome that is massive success, which I had my first year. We were number one in the country. We beat Duke at Duke. We were tied for the ACC championship. And then my second year, we had the worst record in Carolina basketball history. So now the floodgates could open. It still bothers me. There's still moments. There's always triggers for me, North Carolina, the university, the basketball program, college basketball, those triggers, tough emotions. And at first, I tried to be a tough guy and act like there's no big deal. It's just part of the business and things happen. And I was working with an executive coach at the time and she said,

Starting point is 00:00:52 no, no, you trusted this institution, these men when you were 17 years old. Now you feel betrayed by a father figure. That made me realize that what I was feeling was real. It allowed me to deal with it a little bit better. Welcome to PassionStruck. Hi, I'm your host, John Armiles, and on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips, and guidance of the world's most inspiring people and turn their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you. Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself. If you're new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays. We have long-form interviews the rest of the week with guest-ranging from astronauts to authors,

Starting point is 00:01:32 CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries, and athletes. Now, let's go out there and become PassionStruck. Hello everyone, and welcome back to episode 402 of Passion Struck, Ranked by Apple, as the number one alternative health podcast. And thank you to all of you come back weekly. To listen and learn how to live better, be better, and impact the world. If you're new to the show, thank you so much for being here, or you simply want to introduce this to our friend or family member, and we love it when you do that. We have episode starter packs, which are collections of our fans favorite episodes that we organize and convenient playlists that give any new listener a great way to get

Starting point is 00:02:07 acclimated to everything we do here on the show. Either go to Spotify or PassionStruck.com, slash starter packs to get started. And I have a special invitation for you. At the beginning of the year, we started a 50 week challenge to inspire you to become your most passion struck self. We're now into week four of this challenge and I invite all of you to join it. You can do so by signing up for our newsletter at passionstruck.com. I also am excited to introduce our new passion struck quiz.

Starting point is 00:02:33 It's a unique opportunity for you to discover where you stand on the passion struck continuum. Are you an imitator, an orchestra, or a vanquisher? Take the quiz on passionstruck.com and find out which one resonates more with your journey to living a passion struck life. In case you missed it, earlier this week I interviewed Jen Gottlieb, a towering figure in the realm of personal branding and authentic communication. Jen with her illustrious background is VH1 host, Broadway actress and co-founder of Super Connector Media, brings a rich tapestry of experiences to the table.

Starting point is 00:03:00 Her best-selling book, Be Scene, is not just a title, it's a manifesto for those seeking to make a genuine impact in their field. I also wanted to say thank you for your ratings and reviews. If you love today's episode, or gents, we would appreciate you giving it a five-star review and sharing it with your friends and families. I know we and our guests love to see comments from our listeners, and we so appreciate it when you share these episodes with your family and friends. Throughout the month of January, as we near the launch of my new book, Passion Struck, I'm going to feature guests who signify what it truly means to live a passion struck life. Today, I'm absolutely thrilled to be joined by an incredible guest, Coach Matt Dordy.

Starting point is 00:03:32 For those of you who might not be familiar with Matt, let me paint a picture for you. Matt had an illustrious career in basketball, both as a player and a coach. He was a starting forward on the 1982 North Carolina National Championship team, coached by the legendary Dean Smith. And he played alongside some of the greatest names in basketball history, including Michael Jordan, James Worthy, Sam Perkins, and Brad Doherty. Following his playing career, Matt moved into coaching, serving as the head coach at both the University of Notre Dame and UNC's Alma Mater. In 2001, he was even named the National Coach of the Year. But in 2003, Matt faced one of the toughest moments in his career.

Starting point is 00:04:08 He was forced to resign. This brings us to the theme of today's episode, Rebound. How do you bounce back when you've been knocked down? How do you rebuild yourself and prepare for your next opportunity? Matt already has lived through these challenges and more, facing adversity, betrayal, and moments of self-doubt, both on and off the court. In our episode, Matt takes the son of Journey through his life, sharing with us the highs and lows the moments of triumph, and the moments of despair.

Starting point is 00:04:32 Through his story, Matt demonstrates what true leadership looks like, even the face of suffering and setbacks. In our discussion, Matt will share with us some of the valuable lessons he has learned about leadership. He would talk about the long and winding road to becoming a leader. The unexpected twist in turns that life can throw at you and the importance of being dedicated enough to find the answers no matter how tough the questions may be.

Starting point is 00:04:51 Leadership is not about being born with a certain set of skills or characteristics. It's about learning, growing, and developing as a person. And as Matt will tell us, anyone can become a better leader no matter where they're starting from. So without further ado, let's dive into this incredible conversation

Starting point is 00:05:05 with Matt Dirty. Thank you for choosing Passion Struck and choosing me to be your host again and your journey to creating an intentional life. Now let that journey begin. and thrilled today to welcome coach Matt Dordey to Passionstruck. Welcome, Matt. Hey, thank you, John. The reason I have you on here and I wanted to acknowledge it right off the bat was oftentimes I'm requested by listeners of the show to invite Gaston. And today, it happens to be a person that you and I both know Kathleen Martin from our time in Moorsville. Yes, yes. Kathleen Martin was a great neighbor and a terrific photographer.

Starting point is 00:05:45 I guess she was. She actually took some pictures of my own two kids that are still some of the ones that we most cherish. So I totally agree with you. Yeah. Well, Matt, I wanted to start off. Can you tell us a little bit about your early years and what first drew you to basketball. Oh gosh, it's ironic. You asked that because yesterday, Bobby Knight died, the coach of the Indiana Hoosiers in the 1976, his Indiana Hoosier basketball team led by Scott May, Quinn Buckner, went undefeated. And I really think in the junior high, sixth, seventh, eighth grade is such an impressionable age for young people that I remember watching those games. And I was a type of kid that you'd watch the games, then you go out to the driveway or the park and practice the moves that you saw. And so I grew up playing baseball like most kids in my neighborhood. My dad was a

Starting point is 00:06:45 minor league pitcher. Then he signed me up for basketball camp in fourth grade. And I just was captivated by it because really truly a team game, but you can practice it individually. And other sports really, they're a team, but they're not so much a team game. When you look at some sports, maybe baseball pitcher pitcher versus the batters, 101. And you can't practice baseball by yourself. That's hard to do. Now with technology and things you can, a little bit better, football the same way. You need somebody else.

Starting point is 00:07:18 With basketball, I just needed the ball and a dream. And I was good. And I was blessed to have that opportunity. And then really God blessed me with my height. I'm six seven or I used to be now that I'm 61. I think I've lost an inch. But yes, I just love the flow of the game, the energy of the game. There was no stoppage. It was constant action. Everyone gets to touch the ball. The communication, it's a beautiful game. So that's what captivated me.

Starting point is 00:07:48 I'm glad you brought up Bobby Knight and I have a fun story about him. I remember visiting my brother and sister who were both students at Indiana. Probably it would have been 92-93-ish and we went to the stake in L. And during that time, I think if I have the name correct, Calvin Cheney was one of the stars on the team and we're sitting there eating lunch

Starting point is 00:08:11 and I have my back to the booth behind me and all of a sudden I hear these people coming up, hey coach, how do you think the team's going to be this year? Hey coach, how do you think this is going to be? And it was like a Hoosier moment. And I'm like, I can't turn around. I can't turn around. And Bobby Knight was sitting directly behind me. But just the enthusiasm of the townspeople and the way that he was addressing them was just once in a lifetime thing to see.

Starting point is 00:08:36 He was beloved in that state and beloved across basketball. And I had the pleasure of getting to know him, I worked with his son Pat. I played against Bobby Knight's teams, I coached against Coach Knight, and I got to fish with Coach Knight. Not many people get to say those things. Well, let me ask you an interesting question since we're on this topic. Are you played for Dean Smith?

Starting point is 00:08:59 Can you contrast Dean Smith and Bobby Knight because they're probably two of the most famous basketball coaches of all time? Yeah, I think their core values are the same. Coach Smith was play hard, play smart, play together. I think Bobby Knight, his culture, could have used those values verbatim. It was all about team play. It was all about playing hard. It was playing smart and playing together. It's just that they communicated that in different ways. Coach Smith never cursed, never ever. I don't know anybody that knows has ever heard Coach Smith curse. Anybody has been around Bobby Knight has heard him curse. Bobby Knight's a big man. Like people don't realize

Starting point is 00:09:47 how big a man he is. He's probably six five when monster guy coach Smith, not so much. Coach Smith was probably five nine, maybe five, 10 coach Smith was a little more soft spoken, calculated the professor. Bobby Knight was more of the ballroom rough and tumble blue collar guy, but they were both teachers. They were both educators. They were both leaders of men. And they both won without cheating. Yeah, which is an extremely important aspect of it. And I always like Bobby because I went to the Naval Academy and I love the fact that he got to start coaching at Army. And I could see why those attributes would have been great there and look what led to Coach K, your rival and his legendary career. I know

Starting point is 00:10:35 as a recruited college athlete myself that you have lots of choices if you're a good athlete of where you eventually end up, what led you to want to play for North Carolina? I think first and foremost, I wanted to win. I wanted to play where basketball is important. I love the ACC, the intensity of the league. I was used to that growing up on Long Island playing. I played for Bob McKillip at the Holy Trinity High School. Bob went on to be Steph Curry's coach at Davidson and Dick Zitler. We had great teams, great energy, great rivalries. I wanted to be a part of that. The ACC was it. The Big East was just starting to get formed and the ACC was best comforts in the country. So I my final four schools were Duke, North Carolina, Notre Dame,

Starting point is 00:11:22 and Virginia. Notre Dame was an independent at the time. But as Irish Catholic kid out of New York, Notre Dame made a lot of sense for me. But I just felt that Coach Smith was heading shoulders above the others. There's a difference in the temperament, in the field and the vibe around the program. And I felt year and year out would be in the top 10 with the chance to win a national championship. And my first year, we made it to the national championship game, ironically, losing to Bobby Knight in 1981. That was the day Ronald Reagan got shot.

Starting point is 00:11:56 And then 82, we won it. And then 83, we ranked number one in the country and lost in the final eight. And then my senior year, we probably had my best team. And we lost to Indiana in 1984 to an Indiana team that wasn't great. Steve Alpford was a freshman, but it was amazing how things were woven between Indiana and North Carolina. Bobby Knight Dean Smith, my two teammates, Sam Perkins and Michael Jordan ended up playing for Bobby Knight in the 1984 Olympics, winning the gold medal. So yeah, really cool how the programs are very similar with their core values. And I could say the same about Duke. And you could say the same about most organizations. Alabama football, they're all about the

Starting point is 00:12:43 process. They're all about sacrificing for the good of the team. They're all about hard work. They're all about paying attention. And I do a lot of talk about the organizational triangle wherever the organization is made up of talent systems and culture. And talents at the top, you have systems, you have culture. And the better systems you have, the better culture you have, the better your talent will perform, the better talent you'll attract, the better talent you'll retain. However, at the end of the day, culture is king. You could have great systems and great talent, but if your culture stinks, you're not going

Starting point is 00:13:16 to perform at a high level. You could have average talent, average systems, but if you have a great culture, you can be successful. And so I love talking about culture and we talk about the word intentional. That has to be intentionally driven. You just can't let your, well, people do, you could have a default culture. Like, okay, we're just going to, we're going to be who we are. We're going to allow people to do what they want to do. But your culture gets watered down once you get past two people. So I hire you.

Starting point is 00:13:55 Okay, we have a culture. It's exciting. High energy. We both show up on time with great energy. We do our tasks. We hold each other accountable. But all of a sudden, you hire somebody else. I hire somebody else. Once we start growing past four, which grew. So that's when your culture has to be intentional. Your core values have to be written down, well thought out no more than four core values because people can't remember more than three or four things. That's why phone numbers are three to four digits long, not seven. And then your behaviors, what behaviors are sprout from your core values that are written down that are intentionally followed. And then the toughest part, John, is you have to hold people accountable. And that's where people get uncomfortable, where,

Starting point is 00:14:45 hey, John, you didn't come into work on time. Is everything okay? John, your report was supposed to be on my desk by five o'clock on Friday. And I don't have it. What, what happened? And depending on your response, then I respond accordingly. People don't like to have those crucial conversations, but that's all you have in leadership. That's all you have in teams is crucial conversations. And it needs to be driven by core values of behaviors. Thank you for explaining that because as I had done research on you, one of the core things that Dean Smith had taught you was this value between systems and as you're

Starting point is 00:15:26 saying, the team itself and how they're performing and the culture. How did he go about making sure that those qualities were things that you would follow or not follow, were there specific ways that he did that? Well, I think this is important. He talks about them in the recruiting process. So when you're onboarding a new employee or recruiting a new employee, are you talking about your core values? Are you talking about the behaviors that are important to your organization? So that way, it's not a surprise. Now, some people may not feel comfortable being held to that

Starting point is 00:16:01 standard. Okay, good. I want to know that now before I hire them. And then some will lean into that and embrace it and be excited by it. So take you back to my home visit with Dean Smith in 1979. He's in my living room right across from me. My parents are there, pastor from my school assistance from North Carolina and coach Smith, the topic of playing time comes up. And he said to me, you'll be lucky to play by the time you're a junior. Now, I hadn't heard that from other schools, like other schools are basically telling me or implying that I'll play a lot as a freshman. I leaned in and said to myself, I'll show you. Okay. So I leaned into that. I took it as a challenge.

Starting point is 00:16:46 I'm fairly competitive. And I think that's maybe one what he was testing. Are you willing to compete for playing time, even though you're a high school all-American, two, setting expectations that it's not going to be easy. So that way, when it gets hard, he can say, wait a second, remember in your home in September of 1979, when I said you probably won't play till you're a junior. So what part of this is a surprise? So I think that's important. I think a lot of leaders are afraid to lead with their core values and the difficulties.

Starting point is 00:17:21 Ernest Chackelton who led the expedition to the South Pole. It's a great book. I'm drawn a blank on the title of the book, but his recruiting pitch was like it was written in the paper. Men wanted for difficult journey. Now I'm paraphrasing terrible weather conditions, limited light, chance of loss of life, cold, bitter winners. Basically, this grim, peat recruiting letter. And at the end, small chance of fame. And he took his men on this endurance, I think, was the name of the boat. He took the, and

Starting point is 00:18:04 that's the book. He took his men on this journey. They got shipwrecked. No one died. He rescued all of them. But he told them up front. This is going to be hard. You might not live through this journey. But if you do, people will be talking about us forever. And so some people get excited about that. Some people are scared of that. That's okay. That's okay. But now we have a target audience of who we can go after. And we know that when things do get tough, they're going to embrace, they're going to embrace the suck, if you will. Well, I was just going to say your story sounds like a recruiting video for the Navy seals and their motto is to embrace the suck. So is it?

Starting point is 00:18:58 Okay. Yeah, it's not for everybody. And that is okay. We just want a few as them as they say in the military, a few good men. Well, that team that you played on at North Carolina had everyone from Michael Jordan, Sam Perkins, James Worthy, Brad Dordey, Ike The List goes on.

Starting point is 00:19:17 All of you could have played in the NBA. All of you were very gifted physically. I think I wanted to understand is oftentimes I think ego comes from insecurity. And with that type of group of people, you could have had a ton of ego carrying you guys apart. What caused that not to happen? Well, first of all, I do believe ego is indirect proportion to insecurity, the deeper your insecurity, the higher level of ego you have. I think that goes back to coach Smith when the recruiting process, you have to evaluate

Starting point is 00:19:55 people, evaluate behaviors. So I was talking to somebody about this the other day, I'm an executive coach through an organization called Vistage, which is the oldest executive coaching organization in the country. And he was talking about what do you look for? And I think these are important things like to ask and interviews, behavioral type questions because we don't often, we screw it up. We say, oh, yeah, that seemed like a good person.

Starting point is 00:20:22 Nice guy, nice girl would love to have them in my organization. And then you realized they don't show up on time. They soak their energy suckers, not energy givers. Well, you didn't really do your research. So coach Smith, they would study you like they would ask they would watch how you behaved. And the friend of mine, a client yesterday said, well, what did you look for besides the way they shot the ball and her stats? I said, I wanted to see how they walk to the bench.

Starting point is 00:20:53 How did they take instruction from the coach when they were subbed out? Did they throw a towel and kick the chair? Or did they sit on the bench next to the coaches? Listen and did they cheer for their teammates? What were they like in a huddle? What was it? Were they like taking water from a manager?

Starting point is 00:21:12 What did they do when they finish with the cup that they throw it at the manager? Do they drop it that they leave it that they pick it up and put in a trash? Those little things matter because they show up, especially under stress. Now, I happen to be watching the last dance for just coincidence. And one of the things that was interesting to me, as I was preparing for this, as I knew you were going to talk about the triangle. And it's interesting because for the early part of Michael Jordan's career at Chicago, pretty much the entire team was built off of giving Michael the ball. But when Phil Knight took over as the head coach, he implemented something called

Starting point is 00:22:00 the triangle offense, which deemphasized Michael in many ways and made it more about finding the person who was open on the court. And you would think a change like that could be very difficult to implement. What do you think led to that success of getting the players and especially Michael on board with that new philosophy? Because as a coach, I imagine that could be very difficult to do. Well, change is difficult. Most people don't like change. And I had the pleasure of talking to Michael about this about a year and a half ago. I played golf with them and we had a long dinner and we talked about things like this. And he averaged, I think, that year prior 35 points of game, but a couple things.

Starting point is 00:22:42 One, Michael came from a college program that was successful where the game was based on sharing the ball. So he understood that what it took to win. Now, it's, can you trust your teammates? And then is there a system in place that will put the team in position to be successful? And then he could still get his 32 points like Michael's a smart guy. And he did the math. He said, well, if I get to the foul line 12 times, I'll make 10. So that's 10 points right there. I'll get the ball in this position. That's another 15 points. And then I'll get five more points off of offense or rebounds. If I go 10 times, like he had it broken down. He knew that he could average 30 to 32 points

Starting point is 00:23:32 within that offense. And I think believed that it was what the team needed. And especially with the growth of guys like Scottie Pippenin where now he had some people around him, John Pax and could shoot Steve Kerr can shoot some guys around him that could contribute and make plays and it wasn't just him. Yeah, I always thought it was remarkable that set of people who hated the Detroit Pistons. You got to face it. They, those two teams did not like each other to take probably the most hated person on the team. They hated the most, Dennis

Starting point is 00:24:11 Rodman, and then welcome him with open arms. That had to be just an incredible beat to see. Well, we talked about that. First of all, as you say, that I think of the book, Team of Rivals, which is about Abe Lincoln. And how when he became president, he filled his cabinet with people that were running against them that said bad things about him, but he wanted to win. He wanted to do the right thing for the country. So he was secure enough to surround himself with people that were competitors of his. And I think they respected that. And he respected them with Rodman. Michael tells the story that Phil wanted Rodman, Michael wanted Rodman. Scotty didn't want Rodman. So I guess Scotty got out voted, but they could manage Rodman. And I think with Phil Jackson and Michael was strong enough leader, strong enough personality,

Starting point is 00:25:05 and Dennis would respect that. And I think Rodman wanted to win again. And because I think he was in San Antonio at the time and things weren't going well in San Antonio. Michael tells this is such great self-awareness. All right. This is, people think of always great, people of great athletes. The best of the best are smart as heck too. So Michael told Scotty when they got Dennis Robman, listen, Scotty Robman's identity is defense and rebounds. So if we're in the vicinity of Dennis and

Starting point is 00:25:41 a rebound comes off the rim, let him get it. Okay. Don't take that away from him. Even though we want to get triple doubles, we want to get double digits and points rebounds and assists for the good of the team and good of Dennis, let Dennis get the rebound. And he said, and New Jersey, Scotty and I forgot about that. And Dennis didn't have any many rebounds and he ended up getting two technicals, kicked out of the game. And later came to his room and apologized.

Starting point is 00:26:11 That self-awareness, understanding that you can't do it alone. It's not, it's a team sport, right? There's an African proverb, if you wanna go fast, go alone, if you wanna go far, go together. So Michael came from that type of environment at North Carolina and he understood it. And so then this is the genius of Phil Jackson. And I think this was in the show. Dennis wanted a break. I think it was like January and

Starting point is 00:26:39 he wanted a break from the team. And Phil said to Dennis, well, you'll have to talk to Michael. You'll have to get Michael's approval. How about that? Here's the head coach saying you have to get Michael's approval. How brilliant was that? So Michael gets involved in a conversation and he says, heck, if anybody deserves a break during the middle of the season. It's me. But Michael was aware enough had the emotional intelligence to understand that Dennis needed this break. And Dennis's role was limited. It was important, but it was limited. You don't need Dennis to shoot or really be involved in the offense so much, except from the rebound. They agreed to give Dennis like a weekend in Vegas or wherever you want it, but it was Vegas. Well, the weekend turned to four days to five days. Who

Starting point is 00:27:31 flies to Vegas shows up wakes up Dennis and the companion in the bed and tells Dennis pack your bags. We're going back to Chicago. Michael, that's leadership. So Dennis gets back to Chicago and Jackson Phil Jackson wants to get make sure Dennis is in shape. So they do this thing. We probably can't say it anymore in Indian run where the last person in line they're running around a court has to race to the front. And then so it's continual. The last person races to the front of the line. So you're getting some sprinting in and they're like, we couldn't catch Dennis. Dennis has been in Vegas for seven days and he's still in a freakish shape. But it takes a team led organization is the best lead organization. When you have leadership that hold each other accountable, that's when real magic happens. Well, that leads me into asking, you made the transition from player

Starting point is 00:28:34 to coach. How did your experience as a player influence your approach to the way you coached? Yeah, that's a great question. I think a couple of things. One, I think you have to answer why to a player. You can't just tell somebody, do it this way. Yeah, you got to explain the why. And when I played back then, we had seniors and coach Smith didn't really like you asking questions in practice. So he would just do it. He was very efficient. And he explained the Y some, but as a young player, I think that it was really important to understand the Y because then you'll be more committed to it. I was trying to be very cognizant of that. And then as a player, one of the things I was attracted to coach Smith, I was a smart

Starting point is 00:29:20 player. I like to use my brain. And I like to outsmart the opponent. I like to trick it up a little bit. I wanted to throw in some variations. That kept me interested as a player. And I didn't want to just do the same thing every day, every practice, every game. So I like to throw in some wrinkles to surprise the opponent and adjust to trends during the season. And when I had players that could make those adjustments, that was a lot of fun for me. My team at Notre Dame could really do it. And ironically, well, my team's in North Carolina. I'm thinking of a play right now at Maryland that we put

Starting point is 00:30:03 in and in a time out, just a little wrinkle. And we got a bucket. And then my team at North Carolina, my last year, I had three freshmen, two sophomores, extremely smart team led by Jawad Williams, Jackie manual, Sean May, Raymond Felton and Rashad McCans. And we were playing Kansas in the garden. My assistant Doug Wojek said, Hey, why don't we do this and we drew it up in a time out. Then we went out and executed. We got a bucket. That's a lot of fun as a coach. Well, speaking on these lines of coaching, you had a meteoric rise. You first worked under coach McKillip who you talked about at Davidson. And I remember Steph Curry being there because he was at Davidson during the time that I lived

Starting point is 00:30:45 in Mooresville, then you went to Kansas and got to work under coach Roy Williams before you became a coach at Notre Dame. Can you provide some of the inner workings, some of the insights, the inner workings of a big time basketball program and the power struggles that are happening behind the scenes? Because I think it's something that a viewer probably has a new idea happens. Yeah, when you say power struggles, you're talking about within the program or outside the program. I'm talking more outside the program, like what a coach has to coach the team, but there's

Starting point is 00:31:19 this whole other aspect of being a coach inside an athletic system that I think people don't understand plus the alumni, et cetera. Yeah, no, it's a large enterprise as an executive coach when I took over coaching early on, people would say, well, what do you know about running a business? You're just the basketball coach. And I said, well, I was the head basketball coach at Notre Dame. I was the head basketball coach at Notre Dame. I was the head basketball coach at North Carolina. We

Starting point is 00:31:47 had large budgets, multi million dollar budgets. We drove large revenue, multi million dollar revenue. We had a board of directors. I had to deal with the media, a track talent, train talent, retain talent, fire talent. I

Starting point is 00:32:03 had five direct reports and an enterprise of close to 50 in terms of head count full time employees, if you will. So as I talk along those lines, the people I was talking to would nod their head like, Oh, okay, I get it. You were the CEO of North Carolina basketball and like exactly. So on a college campus, there's a lot of dynamics. And one is the professors, the professors, remember when I first signed my contract at North Carolina, I was walking to a sporting event, a soccer or a lacrosse game. And there was a professor walking next to me. And he said, uh, nice contract or I saw your contract on a paper because it's public domain at its state university.

Starting point is 00:32:49 And I said, I'll tell you what, I'll trade you my contract for your tenure made him quiet. You're under the gun. I think a lot of people don't embrace the fact that whether you like it or not in a college campus, the sports programs are the front porch of the university. They are the marketing arm of the university. And once people get it and embrace it, then you could have success. You don't want to fight that. Now as a coach, you have to be humbly confident. I was trying to coin this phrase, confident humility, humbly confident, but you have to have a stance that, hey, you know, yeah, this, if we have a good football program at North Carolina or a good basketball program, look with the impact that Nick

Starting point is 00:33:40 Saban has had on the city of Tuscaloosa and admissions at Alabama. Like that school now attracts students from all over the country. I was down there last year for the Iron Bowl and my brother and I were there and we bumped into somebody and asked this young lady, a student, where are you from? She said, Long Island.

Starting point is 00:34:04 I've said, Long Island, That's where I'm from. I'm like, why would you go to the University of Alabama? Oh, I want to go a place where there was good football and exciting and came down here to visit the weather, the campus. Like that's Nick Saban. And so he's getting paid $10 million a year. And people say, oh, I can't believe he's getting paid $10 million a year. But would you pay an advertising company $10 million a year and people say, oh, I can't believe he's getting paid $10 million a year. But would you pay an advertising company $10 million a year

Starting point is 00:34:28 to attract students from all over the country and raise the profile of your university? Probably, there's real value in sports, but not a lot of people, not everybody on campus sees it. And there's some jealousy because you go back to the ego topic. We're all little kids dressed up as adults playing in a sandbox. Okay, everyone has a default emotion of, that's my toy. That's mine. You can't play with it.

Starting point is 00:34:59 They want to protect their domain. So when somebody comes in like a Nick Saban, like me, it's important that you are confident, but you have humility in that you try to create good will on campus, because that professor across campus who's making, let's say, I don't know, let's say $150,000, you're making 1.5 million. There's a chance for them to be jealous and have animosity. So how do you approach them? Well, Bob McKillip used to say kill him with kindness. So just be nice, be humble and show appreciation for the job they do in educating the student body. Yeah, well, Matt, thank you for sharing that. And one of the books that I have used

Starting point is 00:35:49 throughout my career, the first 90 days. And I have found that when I have used that and the principles in it, that I have had tremendous success in the roles that I go into, but there are times when I have applied perhaps the 90 days too quickly. And one of the things that I've learned is that sometimes the first impressions that you make in those 90 days are very hard to undo. Have you ever experienced something like this?

Starting point is 00:36:22 Oh, 100%. That's where I look back at my time at North Carolina. When I took over, managing change is an art form. And you can't do it the same way at every institution you work at. I wrote a book rebound from pain and passion. And I talk about the first 90 days. And at Notre Dame, list the six knows of leadership, KNOWS. And I use an acronym that I made up called STEVIT. I make a story up that it's an Eastern European kid that I recruited

Starting point is 00:36:59 seven footer with grades named STEVIT. So you have to know yourself. You have to know your team, you have to know your environment. That's where this comes up. I don't know what environment are you stepping into? Have they had success? Was there a long time CEO or head coach that was beloved or was there a short timer that they didn't really feel loyal to? What's the people on campus? Do they support athletics or are they fighting athletics? So you have to know your environment and then you have to know your vision, you have to know your

Starting point is 00:37:32 industry and then you have to mind for the truth. And so the environment when I took over at Notre Dame, they wanted change. So when I instilled change, they supported it. When I got to North Carolina, they had 36 years of continued success under just two coaches and they were both still in the building. They did not want change. They didn't think they needed change. However, they did. They just didn't know it. The program got a little soft. They needed to instill some toughness, some change. They didn't lift weights on a regular basis. So I came in and brought my staff with me, which I was told I could. I asked the question of the athletic director,

Starting point is 00:38:14 but that was shunned upon. And I changed the physical plan. It needed to be updated, recruits look at things like your office and locker rooms. And they hadn't changed the office or locker room in years, making those changes. People took that some as disrespectful to the traditions of the program. So looking back, I should have gone slower with change.

Starting point is 00:38:36 However, in basketball, you generally get a new job in March. I got this job in July. So I had to really put things on a hyper speed and that just exacerbated the process of managing change. And it went too fast. And I had four secretaries who has four secretaries. And so that had been there probably an average of 20 years each. So I did not manage change properly. And that really was tough to shake. The only way to overcome that is massive success, which I had my first year. We were number one in the country. We beat Duke at Duke. We were tied for the ACC championship. And then my second year, we had the worst record in Carolina basketball

Starting point is 00:39:23 history. So now the floodgates could open. Well, I can relate to everything you're saying. I ended up taking a job. I had been working at Lowe's for many years, right in your own backyard. And then I took a job to work as a senior executive at Dell. And coming into Dell, Michael had told me that the organization had gotten stagnant and that they needed someone to come in and institute change. The thing I didn't realize going

Starting point is 00:39:53 to your know your environment was I didn't really understand Michael's leadership style, which was he is pretty passive in the way he leads. Although he wanted these things to happen, he wasn't going to get into conflict to see that he got his way. And so what I faced when I came in was I was trying to change a battleship and do it in ways that we're gonna rapidly get us to where we needed to be because underneath, he was trying to change the whole company and we needed new systems and processes

Starting point is 00:40:27 in order to do that. But what I underestimated was the fact that so many of the leaders had been there for so long and they loved the way that things were as they stood. So I didn't realize the barriers I was going to run into. And I think one of the fundamental mistakes I made, and I know you talk about in the book, I'm not retaining Phil Ford. I had an employee named Becky, who were still very good friends to this day, but I ended up letting her go. And as I look back,

Starting point is 00:40:59 I really should have retained her because she carried much more weight than I thought in the way that people perceived the organization and she was as Thai if I would have brought her on board more between the past and what I wanted to do in the future. But I know exactly what you're talking about because I started to try and push things too quickly and underestimated the organization's willingness to follow me. You have to inspire followership that people aren't going to follow a title. They're going to follow a person that inspires them, that they respect. And it was really probably nothing against you.

Starting point is 00:41:40 It's probably nothing against me. We were put in tough situations. And I'm sure looking back, even though I'm a literal person. So if you say you want change and I'm, I get excited about instituting change, I'm going to institute change because that's what you said. But sometimes you have to read between the lines and somebody like Michael Dell says, I want change, you probably really does want change, but just don't make it so abrupt that it rocks the world of Dell and annoys my people. So how do you do it tactfully, subtly, as you talked about, you alluded to navigating a battleship in the harbor, turning a battleship takes a long time.

Starting point is 00:42:27 But I wanted to, I was driving a speedboat. I was driving, yeah, I was driving as one of those long cigarette boats. And people were falling off the back, drowning. And that cost me my job. Well, Matt, I know personally it's taken me years. And even now I'm still not over what happened at Dell because it was something that I considered to be a family. And I know for you, this idea of the Carolina family took on even more meaning because

Starting point is 00:42:56 you were there since you were 18 years old. And it had been a group that you had respected and had been a proud member of. Can you explain as you do in the book, the devastating emotional impact this event had on you? Yeah. As you touched on, it still bothers me. There's still moments and there's always triggers. I heck for you every time you look at a Dell computer, probably triggers you. And so for me, North Carolina, the university, the basketball program, college basketball, those triggers, tough emotions, and can put me heading into a black hole. And at first,

Starting point is 00:43:36 I tried to be a tough guy and act like there's no big deal. It's just part of the business and things happen. And I was working with an executive coach at the time. And she said, no, you trusted this institution, these men when you were 17 years old. And now you feel betrayed by a father figure. And so that made me realize that what I was feeling was real, it allowed me to deal with it a little bit better. And then I had to talk to Coach Williams.

Starting point is 00:44:06 I wanted to talk to Coach Smith, but his health wasn't good. I probably waited too long, but I needed to be able to share with Coach Williams what I was feeling. He didn't have to agree with that, but I just needed to be heard. That was a big moment for me. I cried like a baby in his office, but he needed to know. And I needed to let that out. I felt a lot better. And then I've had to deal with depression. Like when I was good for two years because I was like America's guest. I was doing TV playing golf, tabling in real estate, I was having a good time. And all of a sudden, I took a job, I took the job at FAU ironically,

Starting point is 00:44:50 they just went to the final four. And I remember right after the press conference, I went to my office, I didn't have a secretary. So I go from having four secretaries to no secretaries. I go to my office to pull out a drawer to get a pen and the drawer breaks and falls on my lap and pens go flying. And I started to cry that two years prior, I was the head coach of North Carolina. I had four secretaries to get me any kind of pen I wanted. I was flying private planes and now I'm at FAU, which was one

Starting point is 00:45:27 of the worst jobs in college basketball at the time. I dealt serious depression for several months, thought about quitting the job. My wife wouldn't let me quit. She's a tough lady. She's like, you took this job, you have these assistants, you can't do that to them. I'm like, you're right. But I was crippling, is crippling. And then finally, the season started and I realized I love basketball. Whether it was coaching basketball at North Carolina or FAU, I had the opportunity to do this coach basketball and influence young men. So for the listener who may be tuning in, who might find themselves in a place that you and I were, it is not easy to rebound.

Starting point is 00:46:11 Your head gets squarely in your way. You lose confidence. You start doubting your worthiness. How did you find that inner strength encouraged to seek help? And what advice would you give to someone who's maybe in the same position you and I were? Well, I think the most important person you need to talk to is God. You need to find your faith. For me, that's God. It's Jesus. It's leaning on my faith. And I think that

Starting point is 00:46:41 God probably hit me over the head in 2003 is too much too fast. You're losing your perspective. You're not putting me first. I have different plans for you and I do believe that when I go to heaven and I ask them about what happened in 2003,, I need maybe to be humbled and get closer to God and have a relationship with him and along with my wife and my kids. I think putting things in perspective. Your identity is so wrapped up in what you do. And I think most successful people, they take on that identity, became obsessed with that. And that's not always healthy. So there wasn't a lot of balance in my life. Good friend, John Black really put me on the path

Starting point is 00:47:31 for the leadership journey that I went on. We need to have a personal board of directors. Who's on your personal board of directors? I recommend having God, your spouse, and then just maybe a financial person, somebody who, you know, people that really care about you have your best interests and are going to be honest with you. So John Black directed me to UVA, to Kara Weber, and executive coach there. I worked with her. I went to Wharton work with Fran Johnston and Jerry Bell,

Starting point is 00:48:06 a couple to name a few, and got excited about the leadership space and realized that if I had taken some of these classes and learned some of these lessons, especially on emotional intelligence, I might have, I might still be at North Carolina. I mean, that was 20 years ago. I'm 61, I could still be the head coach at North Carolina. When then, that was 20 years ago. I'm 61. I can still be the head coach in North

Starting point is 00:48:25 Carolina. When then I got into executive coaching and I wrote a book rebound from pain to passion, leadership lessons learned because I want to help people avoid the landmines I stepped on. Well, Matt, something you just brought up, triggered a thought for me. And that is you and I have kids that are relatively about the same age. And I know my son who is the same age as Jay Martin, they're both 25 now, asked me all the time in this world where so much seems to be changing. And it seems like automation, AI,

Starting point is 00:49:00 whatever you wanna call it is gonna disrupt the way that their careers are going to take shape. What would you say you've learned are four or five of the fundamental skills that they should look to take on that could resist any type of change that may come their way? Well, I think you don't necessarily want to resist change. You want to embrace it. I think it's like riding a wave. You could resist the wave and get crushed along the shore. You can get up on top of it and ride it. I think the thing that comes to mind when you ask me that question is you need to be curious. You need to be a lifelong learner. You need to consume books, podcasts, articles. You need to embrace AI. At Vistage, we have great speakers. We had a gentleman named Severin Sorensen come

Starting point is 00:49:52 speak to my groups last week on artificial intelligence and get excited about it. Don't fear it. Get excited about the change and try to be out in front of it and understand how it can benefit you and your organization. And we're quick to, when is a lack of communication or default emotions negative? So embrace it, study it, play with it. Get chat GPT, it's $19 a month.

Starting point is 00:50:24 Start developing a relationship with it, really. It's almost like a person. And you'll see how it can help your life and your business. And then you'll be empowered in your organization. People are afraid. Oh, it's going to take over my job. Can't do everything. It can't move. It can't go over my job, can't do everything. It can't move. It can't. There's no body language to it. You're still going to need humans. And it's every other technological advancement we've had going back to the automobile, going back to cell phones, going back to electricity, more jobs were created. Yeah, there were some jobs lost, but more jobs were created as a result. And I believe that AI will be the same.

Starting point is 00:51:06 Yeah, it's like going back to the steam engine, which really brought on the industrial evolution, or even back to the printing press. And at those times, people thought those changes were so invasive and look at how they've shaped the world. I always tell in addition to curiosity, creativity, aspect, the need more now than ever to be vulnerable, the emotional and intelligence equation fits in, and then you're going to need to be adaptable. But I think it all starts with curiosity. Well, Matt, one of the things, my dad is a huge basketball fan, just enormous. To this day, still his, I

Starting point is 00:51:47 think his favorite season is watching college basketball. And he always wanted me to be basketball player. And I unfortunately don't have the height you did. And even though I tried and tried, I was just never that great at it. And at, in the end, it didn't interest me. And Kathleen Martin told me a similar story about your son. If I have it right, his name is Tucker, that you wanted him to play basketball, but he wasn't really interested. What happens when you're a parent

Starting point is 00:52:19 and you face a situation like this? Because I know as the sun, I felt like I was disappointing my dad. Oh, yeah. Well, first of all, I didn't push basketball. My son, we introduced it. I think that's key. I was blessed. My dad was a minor league baseball player and signed me up for baseball. I don't know what grade I was in. Probably second playing baseball. I liked it. Okay. And then he signed me up for basketball camp and I love basketball.

Starting point is 00:52:50 And then I quit baseball in sixth grade. There was no pushback from him. My son, we introduced him. We'd have basketball camps. He was around the game, sign him up for a church league. He played in Boka when we were in Boka, Raton at FAU. And then one day, the league was starting and my wife said that Tucker said he didn't want to play. So I said, I'll ask him. So I said, Tucker mom said tomorrow's basketball practice. And he was probably six, maybe he's older, but he's sitting in a booster seat in a back seat.

Starting point is 00:53:22 And I remember being on Brawley school road. And you can relate to that at a light at Morrison plantation. And I'm looking in the rearview mirror. And he puts his hand out like this. And he said, Dad, I told mom, no. And here's like a six year old telling me, no. And I'm thinking like in a cartoon character, there's above his head that says, Hey, dumbass, what part of no don't you get? And I remember just saying, yeah, no problem.

Starting point is 00:53:47 You don't have to play. And so he didn't. And he played some football. He picked up lacrosse when he moved to Dallas and fell in love with lacrosse. He ended up being a high school old American and played D1 lacrosse at Bellaman. So I don't think you should push your kids. I think you should introduce them to things and let them find what they love. My daughter loves swimming. She swam and then she ended up rowing at North Carolina. She played basketball one season in Dallas when

Starting point is 00:54:22 she was like in sixth grade. So neither one of them played and I was okay with that. And just as my dad was okay with me not playing baseball. Man, I have just two short questions left for you. Looking back at your career, what would be your biggest piece of advice that you would give a person starting out their career on the one or two things that if you could, you might have done differently. Yeah, I think we'll go back to the steve it, right? You got to know yourself. Know yourself. And then know your team. And I'm big on personality assessments. I'm certified in disk. That really hit me in 2003 when I work with Cara Weber. I did

Starting point is 00:55:08 Myers-Briggs assessment and realized that not everyone thinks like me, nor should they. Not everyone views things like I do. There's different perspectives. And I think that's probably one of the biggest things. And once you understand that, you understand your team, I think going slow, I'm a fast pace, hard driving guy going a little slower. And really having a coaching mentality with everybody, not just your players. And I tie in of you, gentlemen, David Novak of young brands. And he referred to his team as coaches. And I think that's a different mindset you have when you're coaching your employees versus when you're the boss. And self-awareness is the first key

Starting point is 00:55:59 to leadership. Where are your blind spots? Because we all have them. And the better you can understand them, the better off you'll be. And then the second thing really, and this is the stevet and the last piece of stevet is the second tea, which is truth. You got to mind for the truth because if you don't manage the truth, it'll manage you right out the door. So really dig for the truth. How do people really feel about you and the processes you're putting in place? Yeah, communicate, communicate, communicate. So, you know, those basically know yourself, know your team, know the truth. And you really got to communicate.

Starting point is 00:56:41 You can't over communicate. Okay. And then lastly lastly Matt, what are you most proud of in your life and career and what legacy do you hope to leave? Yeah, great, Chris. The thing I'm most proud of is that I gave up alcohol in 1988. I'm an alcoholic.

Starting point is 00:56:59 I had a problem with it and realized it went to got help, went to AA and hadn't had a drink since. And 11 years later, I became a head coach at Notre Dame. I was working on Wall Street at the time. And without that, without giving up alcohol, I wouldn't have found my career that I loved. I wouldn't have found my wife that I loved. I wouldn't have the family that I have. And that's the thing I'm most proud of in my life. And I think that the legacy I'd like to leave is that you need to be able to rebound.

Starting point is 00:57:34 You need to be able to model a behavior you want with your children and bounce back because life is hard. You're going to get hit in the face a lot. And your kids are watching and you want them to develop resiliency and be able to bounce back from challenges that life will throw you. Well, Matt, it's such an honor to have you on today. If a listener wanted to learn more about you, where's the best place for them to go?

Starting point is 00:58:03 Yeah, they go to my website, dardycoaching.com, darydecoaching.com, DOHERTYY. Well, Matt, thank you so much for being a guest on the show today. It was such an honor. Thank you, John. I thoroughly enjoyed that interview with Matt Dordey. And I wanted to thank Matt and Stephanie McKinley for the honor and privilege of having him appear on today's show.

Starting point is 00:58:22 Links to all things Matt will be in the show notes. Please use our website links if you purchase any of the books from the guests that we feature. Links to all things Matt will be in the show notes at passionstruck.com. Please use our website links if you purchase any of the books from the guests that we feature here on the show. All proceeds go to supporting the show. Videos are on YouTube at both our main channel at John Armyles and our clips channel at passionstruck

Starting point is 00:58:42 clips. Please go check them out and subscribe. Avertiser deals on discount codes are in one community place at PassionStruck.com slash deals. I also wanted to tell you about the PassionStruck Challenge which we just launched. This is 50 weeks of custom curated challenges that I will provide you to help you step more boldly into your journey of becoming PassionStruck. Just go to PassionStruck.com forward slash challenges to join the challenge. And if you're interested in signing up for a weekly newsletter live intentionally, you can do so also on the passion struck website. If you're interested in our work related newsletter work intentionally, you can find that on LinkedIn and you can find

Starting point is 00:59:18 me on all the social platforms at John Armiles for I post daily. You're about to hear preview the passion struck podcast interview that I did with Dr. Mark Hyman. We're at the Cusp of a Revolution in Healthcare. And Dr. Hyman is here to guide us on the exciting journey into the future of health. We also explore his new company, function health and also his pioneering concept of using food as medicine. A notion that redefines our relationship

Starting point is 00:59:42 between our diets and health. Increasing data is showing that our inflammatory diet is affecting our mental health in profound ways. Ultra-processed foods have been the depression, to suicide, to anxiety, to even things like bipolar disease, schizophrenia, it sounds crazy. It's not my opinion anymore. I basically came up with this idea a decade ago

Starting point is 01:00:03 when I wrote my book, Ultramine Solution about how the body affects the brain, but we're seeing this disease of despair and increasing mental health crisis and it's dwarfing all our other problems and it's leading us to make bad choices. It's affecting our brain by causing inflammation. The brain, the problem with that is that our impulse control and our executive function, the adult in the room, doesn't have control over the three-year-old in our brain. And that's why we make bad choices, that's why our biology is hijacked, our brain chemistry is hijacked, our mood is hijacked, our metabolism is hijacked, our taste buds are hijacked by the food industry, and so we really have to learn how to take back our health. And part of it is starting to

Starting point is 01:00:43 understand what's happening under the hood. The fee for the show is that you share it with family or friends when you find something useful or interesting. If you know someone who could use Matt's advice on how to rebound, then definitely share this episode with your friends and family members. Greatest compliment that you can give us is

Starting point is 01:00:57 to share the show with those that you love and care about. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so that you can live what you listen. And until next week, go out there and become Passion Star.

Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Coach Matt Doherty on How You Rebound From Life’s Toughest Moments EP402

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