Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Dorie Clark on How to Create Success Playing the Long Game EP 284

Episode Date: April 25, 2023

Have you ever heard these myths about long-term success? That you have to choose between a job you love and a high-paying career, that playing the long game means giving up short-term rewards, and that there is only one correct path to success. Fortunately, Dorie Clark has the truth to share with career-driven individuals who seek long-term success: How to Create Success Playing the Long Game. Dorie Clark Joins Me to Discuss How to Create Success Playing the Long Game Despite the many obstacles she faced, Dorie Clark never gave up on her journey. As she shifted from academia to journalism and eventually into entrepreneurship, she discovered that pushing through adversity was crucial to achieving her goals. In her latest book, "The Long Game," she emphasizes the importance of staying committed to one's passions, even when the road becomes uncertain. Drawing from her own experiences and those of countless others, Dorie demonstrates that it's not about the number of competitors at the starting line but the few who make it to the finish. By being persistent and consistently evaluating one's desires and motivations, anyone can find success playing the long game. Full show notes and resources can be found here: https://passionstruck.com/dorie-clark-on-playing-the-long-game/  Brought to you by Fabric. Go to Apply today in just 10 minutes at https://meetfabric.com/passion. Brought to you by Green Chef. Use code passionstruck60 to get $60 off, plus free shipping!” Brought to you by Indeed. Head to https://www.indeed.com/passionstruck, where you can receive a $75 credit to attract, interview, and hire in one place. --► For information about advertisers and promo codes, go to: https://passionstruck.com/deals/  Like this show? Please leave us a review here -- even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter or Instagram handle so we can thank you personally! --► Prefer to watch this interview: https://youtu.be/S5BO_yoK1DM  --► Subscribe to Our YouTube Channel Here: https://www.youtube.com/c/JohnRMiles  Want to find your purpose in life? I provide my six simple steps to achieving it - passionstruck.com/5-simple-steps-to-find-your-passion-in-life/ Catch my interview with Lori Gottlieb on the importance of embracing self-compassion: https://passionstruck.com/lori-gottlieb-on-embracing-self-compassion/  Watch the solo episode I did on the topic of Chronic Loneliness: https://youtu.be/aFDRk0kcM40  Want to hear my best interviews from 2022? Check out episode 233 on intentional greatness and episode 234 on intentional behavior change. ===== FOLLOW ON THE SOCIALS ===== * Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/passion_struck_podcast * Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/johnrmiles.c0m  Learn more about John: https://johnrmiles.com/  Passion Struck is now on the AMFM247 broadcasting network every Monday and Friday from 5–6 PM. Step 1: Go to TuneIn, Apple Music (or any other app, mobile or computer) Step 2: Search for “AMFM247” Network  

coming up next on Passion Struck. I think is incumbent upon us as early as we can, as soon as we can, to really ask ourselves, what do I want? What is going to be the way that I want to spend my days? Now, it is true that whatever you come up with may not be possible in the short term, you may have debts, you may have obligations, you may need that lucrative job or that source of revenue. And it's not like everybody can immediately pivot and go become an actor. But it is true. And if we are honest with ourselves about the things that light us up, there are ways, sometimes small ways, but there are ways that we can begin

to reorient ourselves so that our life can begin to reflect more and more what we want. Welcome to PassionStruct. Hi, I'm your host, John Armiles, and on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips, and guidance of the world's most inspiring people and turn their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you. Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself. If you're new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays. We have long form interviews,

the rest of the week with guest-ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries, and athletes. Now, let's go out there and become PassionStruck. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to episode 284 of PassionStruck, ranked by Apple is one of the top 20 health podcasts. And thank you to each and every one of you

who come back weekly, listen and learn, how to live better, be better, and impact the world. And in case you didn't know it, PassionStruck is now also on syndicated radio on the AMFM247 National Broadcast, where featured every Monday and Friday from five to six PM, and you can find it on a whole bunch of stations that I'll put in the show notes,

but you can also go to tune in Apple music or whatever player you use. In case you missed it, last week I interviewed some amazing guests including New York Times, number one bestselling author, Brechen Ruben, and we discussed for brand new book Life in 5 Senses. I also interviewed Bringum Young University professor Julianne Holdlundsde about the loneliness epidemic that is impacting about one third of people globally, and what people can do if they're faced with loneliness to find social connection.

Lastly, I interviewed David Rubenstein, who's the co-founder and co-chairman of the Carl Out Group. And we discuss his upcoming PBS series, which premieres this Wednesday, April 26th, at 10 p.m. on PBS. Iconic America are symbols and stories. Please check them all out if you haven't had a chance.

And if you liked today's episode or any of those who would so appreciate a five-star rating and review, which goes such a long way in helping us promote this podcast for so many more people, but more importantly, bringing more people into the passion-struck community, where we can give them weekly doses of hope,

connection, meaning, and inspiration. And I also know our guests love hearing from you and reading your reviews. Now let's talk about today's episode where we're going to tackle the topic of how do you conquer a long game. It is unrealistic to expect to achieve success overnight. However, the good news is that you can substantially increase your chances of achieving success rapidly if you are dedicated to showing up and implementing strategies that align with your goals, even if the path ahead is unclear, which is often the case when we find ourselves in a job relationship Bobby or perhaps pursuing a goal and looking at it through a short term lens.

In her latest book The Long Game, how to be a Long Term thinker in a short-term world, my guest today, Dory Clark, outlines the essential strategies and mindset shifts that are crucial for maintaining consistent effort over long periods of time. These include a thirst for knowledge, creation of space for reflection and innovation, sending boundaries to protect one's time, resolute decision-making, and a dedication to pursuing

both exciting and intimidating ideas. In our interview, Dory emphasizes the importance of cultivating and enduring relationships with other individuals who are also dedicated to playing the long game. She acknowledges that such connections can lead to unexpected opportunities, additionally to she discusses how declining opportunities, even highly desirable ones, can be necessary

to allow for concerted efforts that are essential for long-term success. Saying yes to everything can lead to frenzied busy-ness, rather than focused work that's required for playing the long game. By candidly sharing her experiences and insights, Dory's required for playing the long game. By candidly sharing, for experiences and insights, Dory's interview will inspire the listeners to perceive the wealth of opportunities that are available to them, provided that they are committed to seeking and making strategic moves over the long term. Dory Clark has been named one of the top 50 business thinkers in the world

by Thinkers 50 and was recognized as the number one business thinkers in the world by Thinkers 50 and was recognized as the number one communications coach in the world by the Marshall Goldsmith leading Global Coaches Award. Clark, a consultant and keynote speaker teaches executive education at Duke University's Falkwa School of Business as well as Columbia Business School and she is the Wall Street journal bestselling author of the long game Entreprene Entrepreneurial You, reinventing you, and stand out, which was named the number one leadership book of the year by Inc. Magazine. Thank you for choosing Passion Struck and choosing me. Be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life.

Now, let that journey begin. I am ecstatic today to welcome someone I have wanted to get on this podcast for a very long time, Dory Clark. Welcome, Dory. Hey, John. Really glad to be here with you. Well, I'm so glad to have you here as well. And one of the things that we're going to be exploring today is Wall Street Journal

of Best Selling Book that you released in 2021 called The Long Game, How to Be a Long Term thinker in a short term world. Congratulations on that book's success. Thanks, I really appreciate it. Well, before we dive into the book, I'd like to give the audience a chance to get to know the people I'm interviewing. And I found it fascinating that you got your start by studying philosophy and theology. And then you moved into journalism before working on a few election campaigns. Can you discuss your start? And I was wondering, was there a defining moment

or period of time in your life that caused you to change course and follow the path where you are today? Well, thank you for the questions. I would say that the reason that I ended up where I am now is mostly because I had a lot of hypotheses about what my career would be and then they were all just systematically knocked down and they didn't work. I'm not going to be a doctor. I'm not going to be a doctor. I'm not going to be a doctor. I'm not going to be a doctor.

I'm not going to be a doctor. I'm not going to be a doctor. I'm not going to be a doctor. I'm not going to be a doctor. I'm not going to be a doctor. I'm not going to be a doctor. I'm not going to be a doctor. I'm not going to be a doctor. I'm not going to get a doctorate so I could be a professor and I got turned down by every single one of the doctoral programs I applied to so I had to have a new plan.

And then I became a journalist and that seemed like a good plan. And then I did it for about a year and I ended up getting laid off and I couldn't get another journalism job because there was a recession and a hiring freeze. And on and on, I think for a lot of us, other people kind of looking from the outside in, assume that there's a grand plan or a master plan, but I think in reality, for many of us, professionally, it's more, all right, here's what I'm going to do now. And you have this operating theory, and then it changes when you need it to change. You have to pivot and adapt. And I ultimately ended up writing my first book, reinventing you because it was a little traumatic having to go through all of those changes really fast. I mean, I worked on campaigns. As you said, I ran a nonprofit. Finally,

I started my own business. And that seems to have stuck. I've been doing it for 17 years. But there was a lot of reinvention. And I really wrote that book because I wanted to hopefully make the process easier for other people because I kept feeling like I was getting knocked out of the boat and having to keep my head above water for a while. Yeah, and I know one of the things I have experienced as I've started my own business and when I talk to people who've done it is you go into this thinking that you're going to have immediate success, yet the reality is it typically takes two to five years before the work really starts paying off. Did you find similar thing happened to you when you started your business?

Yeah, absolutely. And in fact, very specifically, one of the things that I mentioned in the long game my most recent book is that over the years, one of the ways that my businesses developed is that I have started an online community in 2016 for folks folks who are smart, they're committed, they're good at what they do. And they are experts because it is hard these days to get your message out. They may be struggling with wanting to get exposure to a wider audience or, as they say, grow their platform. That's like the common parlance now of how to get more visibility for your work. I have a fairly unique opportunity as a result, both in my coaching work that I do for people and running this community, which now has over 700 people to be able to I have a fairly unique opportunity as a result, both in my coaching work that I do for people and running this community, which now has over 700 people, to be able to have not just myself

as a data point, these hundreds and hundreds of other professionals to see what the arc looks like for them as they are working to try to get more recognition for their ideas and figure out how to get traction. And what I have advised people, and I think seeing it time and time again, I really believe it's pretty accurate, is that it takes between two and three years of consistent effort in terms of trying to break out and get attention for what you're doing, whether it's writing articles or having a podcast or really making a push around speaking or something like that.

But it's about two or three years before you start getting much response at all, but then you start to see some signs. And then fortunately, things often go at a certain point from incremental to exponential growth. And by around year five, you're actually really seeing momentum because you have built up enough of a head of steam that you, the advantages are compounding and you're able to really see that you are getting recognized in ways that your colleagues and peers who have not put in that effort are not. Yeah, and you open up the book about discussing the importance of developing multiple sources of revenue. And it's something that we talked about before you came on today and for the listener there. I'll just give my personal story and that was I.

Similar to you had been a consultant working for one of the big for big consulting firms before that booze. before that booze and then went into the corporate world reaching the pinnacle of where I had wanted to be, which was a Fortune 50 CIO. And once I got there, I realized that I had put all my eggs in one basket and I really wasn't feeling fulfilled and I happened to go to a career coach who gave me the analogy that I'm living my life on a stool that has one support, but I should be living it on a stool that has multiple supports.

Can you go through what you have found and what you would encourage listeners to do to help prepare for their own features? Yeah, well, you're absolutely right, John, that this is such an important issue because a lot of us discover that the thing Yeah, well, you're absolutely right, John, that this is such an important issue because a lot of us discover that the thing that we were basing things on, basing, you know, what sometimes it's our financial future, sometimes it's our emotional identity, sometimes it's all of these things. They seem very stable and solid

until they aren't. And I had the pleasure, I guess, the opportunity. I say an air quotes to learn that very early on because when I was a reporter, I mentioned I was laid off. I was laid off on Monday, September 10, 2001, which is a fairly inauspicious time to lose your job. Because the next day, September 11th, 2001, was really not the best day for job hunting. So it felt even more traumatic than a normal layoff because it seemed like not only had I lost my job, but the world and the economy was collapsing at the same time. So I felt very acutely this problem of, oh, wow, things can go away really quickly.

And I think we all know that in a kind of existential sense, but we often overlook it. We often choose to overlook it. And so I have become a really big advocate. This was pretty much the topic of my third book, Entrepreneurial You. When it comes to finances, I've become a very big advocate of creating multiple revenue streams, trying to build passive income, trying to find ways to make ourselves more economically resilient and secure. That is really important, whether it's a side gig or building new lines of business. But it's also true, and I think you point to this, that emotionally, this is necessary. I mean, you've probably read all of the londonting statistics that happen when people retire

if they've worked inside companies and had a sort of steady job for years and years, the massive health decline and death rates that people have once they retire within like five years is incredibly alarming. And it often stems from the fact that people are so unmoored and lose their identity, that they've always thought of themselves as an accountant, or they've always thought of themselves as a manager,

whatever it is, and when they don't have that anymore, there's very little because they have not taken the time to cultivate other parts of themselves or their lives. And I think we need to start planning for that now, so it doesn't reach an emergency as we get older, or if we lose the job prematurely due to economic conditions. I have to tell you one of the questions that I hate getting in social elements is what do you do? And I've always thought I could answer that question so many different ways. And I heard Hillary Swink give her answer to it. And that is, she said, I could say that I'm an actor. I could say that I'm a producer. I could say I'm a director. I could say I'm a mom, but she goes more than anything. I'm a storyteller.

And I think you're right about we tend to liken our identity to our career in many cases, which is just a very small portion of who we are. So I think that's a really good point for the audience to understand and to use this information to do your own self-reflection and figure out what are the different elements, whether they're monetary causes, philanthropy, or just hobbies that you wanna pursue

and diversify your life into them. Yeah, that's great, John. I love that. And I agree. I mean, what do you do is by now, it's just become such a hackneyed question. I personally try to avoid it. There's a lot of, I think, better variations that we can try. So when I'm meeting someone, for instance, I will try to ask a question like, how do you spend your your time or what are you most excited about? Because those are questions that certainly can include these job if they want to talk about it, they can, but it doesn't necessitate it. Maybe somebody's unemployed right now and it would make them feel bad if they say, oh, I'm not really working right now, right? Or maybe they're in a job that honestly, they don't really love, it's not really stimulating, it's not the thing that they care about. Maybe they're punching the clock, but it's because they're nursing a passion to be a writer

or an artist of some kind. And so I think in conversation, you want to find questions that can draw people out, not just established by a graphical facts, but see to your point, see where the passion lies. And by asking a more open-ended question, it has a little bit more forgiveness around it and enables people to tell you more of who they are. Yeah, that's for sure. Well, I'm going to change directions here a bit. One of the people I have followed for years and years now has been Gary Vaynerchuk, and I've listened to tons of his podcasts, seen him talk live, seen his YouTube videos, and

I remember when he first came out, you could put him almost as the poster child of hustle culture. But over time, a lot of his message seemed to change, and one of the core messages that he started to evolve was the importance of having patience. And in the book, you say that patience is one of the things that you hate most in the world, but it's something that you've had to make peace with it. And you write that everything meaningful you have done has required more time than you anticipated. I wanted to ask you, why is the rate of pay-off for persevering during these dark, long times, not linear but exponential, which is a core component of your book?

Yeah, it's a really important point and an important question, so thank you for raising it. So thank you for raising it. So going back actually to my previous book, Entrepreneurial You, I was doing some research and basically the way that book is structured is that I do a deep dive into all kinds of different ways that people can create income streams and grow their audience, get revenue eventually. And I was looking at the time at podcasts. And there was a very interesting study that was done. There was a 10 year longitudinal study of podcasts. And even like five years ago, it was like, oh, there's so many podcasts. How could I launch a podcast? Oh, there's so much competition. It's even worse now, of course, right? Quote and quote, because there's so many more, but there was a really fascinating finding. And what they discovered,

this research named Josh Morgan, is that over a 10 year period, the average podcast lasted only 12 episodes before its creator shut it down or stopped uploading new episodes. And that at the time that they were conducting this 40% of podcasts that were listed in the sort of iTunes directory were defunct essentially and hadn't posted a new episode in something like an over a year. So we often psych ourselves out by looking at the total number of people or the total number of aspirants saying, oh gosh, but there's so many people, how could I ever compete with that? But the truth is, there's a lot of people

at the starting line, there are very few people at the finish line. There are very few people, John, who like you, have been doing this podcast multiple times a week for two years with 250 plus episodes. That is where a fight company just by dint of your perseverance. It is also true, of course, that when you keep doing things over and over again, you get better.

I'm sure you're better than you were when you first started at running podcasts, interviewing people, things like that. But that compound experience also makes you better than other people as well. And so as a result, I think we often misjudge the risk. I mean, yes, it takes a lot of perseverance, it takes a lot of character to keep something going. But the competition gets easier as you progress, not harder, because so many people just voluntarily drop out of it. So it turns out that if you keep going, you're actually much more likely to experience success over time and have compound results because the field just thins. People often ask me, what has been your success? I probably studied it a good six to eight months before I got into it to truly understand what I was getting into and was it something I even wanted to do because I had asked or in Harbinger, the one of the best podcasters out there what his advice would be and he goes, don't start one because you don't realize how much work it is.

realize how much work it is. But I decided I was going to do it, but then I intentionally focused on different elements. I started with my two-feet planted with a mindset that I knew it wasn't going to start out in the growth trajectory that I imagined it would, but that I needed to just stick with it. And I have to tell you, the first couple episodes probably got 25, 50 downloads, and the interesting thing is they don't even come from your friends and family, the people you expect them to come from. I remember when I started, I saw people up there like Jordan and Lewis House and Tom Billo on impact theory and others, and I just thought and others, and I just thought someday if I could even be a fraction of what they have done, I would be happy.

But now I look back two years later, and the podcast is now an equal part impact theory and Lewis House's ranked number 11 today in top health podcast, and I was 16. So I think it just rings true that the more dedication you put into this and the better at the craft you get, whether it's podcasting or anything you apply yourself to, it does have this escalating factor because your confidence builds,

you get better at what you're doing, you attract more energy and more of the universe into what you're doing and it's a compounding effect. So I think you're really on to something. Yeah, I love how your personal experience has validated that. That's really cool, John. Well, I'm going to talk about the first two steps that you bring up in the long game, where you lay out the process for what it takes to build long-term success. And you say that the first step

is understanding that the key to a meaningful, what I would call, intentional life, is to set our own terms for it. Why is that so important? Well, ultimately, a lot of people are, especially in their younger years are not necessarily interrogating that question, but the truth is, I mean, for some people, it lasts a long time. You're probably familiar, and your listeners are probably familiar with sunk-cost fallacy, which is a concept that is talked about in economics. And basically, what it means is that if you have already expended a lot of time and energy pursuing a particular course, you feel very invested in that because essentially it is confronting you with your mistake, I say in air quotes, to change course.

So let's pretend you had a scenario where your parents always wanted you to be a lawyer or you always thought it would be a good idea to be a lawyer because that's what successful people did in your hometown or whatever it is. And so you go to law school and you decide, oh wow, I hate this. This is terrible. This is not what I thought I would be doing or this is not what I want to do. A lot of those people actually stay as lawyers, partly, that is because of logistics in the sense that often law school is very expensive and so they have to work their way out and repay loans. But also part of that is an identity question that it's extremely confronting to have to say, oh wow, I don't actually like that. Even if this is not actually the case, people often feel like,

wow, I wasted, quote unquote, three years of my life. That's a really painful thing to feel like. And so as a result, you keep digging the whole further. You keep doing the thing you don't like in order to justify to yourself that, no, it's really not so bad. And that's a pretty painful way to live your life. And of course, it's not just true for lawyers. It's true for a lot of us in different ways. I think is incumbent upon us as early as we can, as soon as we can to whatever point in our lives, to really ask ourselves, what do I want? What is going to be the way I want to spend my days? Now, it is true that whatever you come up with

may not be possible in the short term. You may have debts, you may have obligations, you may need that lucrative job or that source of revenue. And it's not like everybody can immediately pivot and go become an actor. But it is true that if we are honest with ourselves about the things that light us up, there are ways, sometimes small ways, but there are ways that we can begin to reorient ourselves so that our life can begin to reflect more and more what we want.

Maybe you can't quit your job and move to Hollywood to become an actor, but could you take on a role in community theater and start doing more of that to bring more of those things into your life? You probably can if you are honest that it really is and should be a priority for you. Love that you brought up that example of lawyers because like you, I know a lot of them. And the majority of them do not appear to be happy yet. The vast majority continue along with it. I was remembering talking to a friend of mine and she was one of the two co-founders and partners in a law firm and she just said, I've just come to the realization. I like the business side of things,

but I don't like the practice of law at all. And I just look at some examples of some people who found that out for themselves and have completely turned it around. You just look at Susan Cain and Gretchen Rubin as two great examples of two people who went to law school, thought that's what they were going to pursue. Gretchen was even a Supreme Court clerk, if I remember correctly. And they both changed

directions, and now are number one New York Times bestselling authors. So just an example of the magnifying effect that can happen once you find that calling and double down on it. can happen once you find that calling and double down on it. Yeah, that's exactly right. And I think it is a really important point. I mean, I don't want to pick on the law in particular, but it's true that I think in some ways it is a place that draws in people because it is viewed as a place that, oh, if you're smart, you should do this. And so it becomes almost like a catchment basin, because if you are a smart person that doesn't really have a clearly

defined path or a passion towards something else, it's, oh, well, I'll do that. I can do that. And anyway, it means that there are a lot of people that end up as lawyers that maybe it's really not their thing. It's just like, oh, well, a smart person can do that. But the really good news, the powerful news is that, hello, you're a really smart person. You actually can do other things too. You can actually learn and move into just about anything you want, like Rechenrubin, like Susan Cain, once you face who you are and what you want and set your mind to it. So whatever field people are in, I think we often underestimate our ability to make pivots and make changes. Smart people can do this. Absolutely. And I just remembered a third example,yn Sharma, who was an attorney at first, and then has switched as well. Well, going back to what you were talking about prior to us,

talking about this last topic, you were discussing the dark days that many of us face on the path to achieving something great. And I recently interviewed Oksana Masters in episode 257. If you're not familiar with her, the audience isn't. She's the most decorated US winter, her Olympian from America. And she has a new book out called The Hard Parts. And in our discussion, she told me that people see the 17 medals and they think it was an easy track. And this is a person who's had whoever legs amputated was in an orphanage for seven and a half years in the Ukraine before she came over, etc. And she was saying is what people don't see are the dark days of getting through the hard parts, the deliberate steps as you point out in the book

and actions we take on an everyday basis. And I often refer to these on the podcast as our daily microchoises and you brought up behavioral science and one of the things, in addition to some cost fallacy, I've heard from almost every behavioral scientist is this importance of the power of choice. Why are these microchoises more steps so important to achieving our synonym of greatness that we want to achieve?

Yeah, this is an important point, John. I think there's a couple of reasons. I mean, the first one, of course, is simply that large activities, large meaningful goals, just simply structurally can't be accomplished in one fell swoop. It's not like I could say, oh, you know what, I really want to write a book. I'm going to sit at my desk for the next two months and literally never leave my desk except to use the bathroom and then I will have finished it, right?

It's not a one time decision. We're like, good, I'm going to write the book now. I mean, obviously doing something like writing a book or for the equivalent thing is, which we're thinking like, okay, hundreds and hundreds of hours of research, of labor, of interviews, of writing, of editing, that is something that can only be done in smaller pieces. It's the microchoises that enable us to get there. There's literally not any other way. That's one aspect of this.

The second is truism, but I think it is in fact true for a reason, which is our days become our weeks, our weeks become our months, our months become our years and our years become our destiny. And that's right. It all adds up. And so I remember around the time I turned 30, a lot of people can probably relate to this. Apparently it's a thing that your metabolism slows a little bit, which is unfortunate. In my early 30s, I went in for my annual physical and I had somehow, I had really not kind of clued into this, but I'd somehow gained like nearly 10 pounds. And I really wasn't doing anything different. I felt like, but suddenly I gained all this weight. I'm like, what is this? And my doctor said, look, Dory, this is literally like you can gain 10 pounds if you're literally eating like a quarter

of a cookie per day. Like that much every day can lead you to gain 10 pounds over the course of a year. Like it is small choices. And so the reverse is true as well, that we have to understand that whatever proactive choice we're making, it will add up, whatever thing that we're not doing, the thing we're choosing not to do. Oh, you know what? Maybe I will take the social media account off my phone so that it is harder for me. And if I want to see it, I have to log in on my desktop. That's a little more challenging. That can give you dozens of hours of your life back every single year, just from a decision like that. So I think you're absolutely right to point to the small choices and small decisions as being quite impactful. Yeah, and I now wanted to get into

some of the aspects that are quarter your book. and I'm going to start by giving some statistics has shown that 23% of workers feel burnt out more often than not with 44% experiencing it often their polls shows that 70 to 85% of all employees worldwide out of the billion fulltime employees are disengaged. It's no secret that we're pushed to the limit. And today, regardless of profession, people feel rushed, overwhelmed, and parentalily behind. So what ends up happening is you've probably experienced yourself is, and you just talked about, as we keep our heads down, focused on the next thing, and the next, and the next without a moment to breathe.

And I wanted to ask you, how can we break out of this endless cycle and create kind of interesting, meaningful lives we all seek? Yeah, it's important to try to step back to answer it because for me in writing the long game, I was inspired to talk about some of these topics because a few years ago started this pre-pandemic, but I think as we look back a lot of us, in some ways, it was a pre-pandemic glory days, right? The economies humming were busy, but also we realized like, oh, wait a minute, it wasn't that everything was perfect, because a lot of us actually were stretched to the limit.

Now, of course, it was a good thing to have a strong economy and, oh, we get to be with people, we get to do things, that's all wonderful. But I think that for a lot of people, the way we were living was just too much. It's a little bit of a good thing is good and too much of a good thing, unless you're Maywest or whoever that was from, too much of a good thing actually is not good at all.

Because if you are traveling, but you're traveling every week, if you are dizzy and have a lot of clients, but it's so much you are working late every single night, it becomes really unsustainable and terrible. And I kept hearing from people. I kept getting these signals that I was picking up on that ultimately prompted me to start this research and write the book. People would say things to me all the time like, wow, if I just had a minute to think, or if I just had a minute to breathe, they'd say these sort of plaintive things like that. And I realized, oh, there's structural problem here. We need to find a different way of relating and doing things. One of the real challenges that we have to figure out is how we can

actually make those moments for ourselves. We have to fight for them. No one is going to give you those moments where you can step back and take a breath and look, survey the terrain and ask important strategic questions. It's a lot easier, frankly, for everybody else in your life, to have you running around like a chicken with your head cut off because it means that you will be doing the things they want you to do. Oh, good. John, I'll get back to me in 10 minutes with that email or oh, good. I'll ask John to do that and he'll get it right to me. Handy for them, not so handy for you. And so we need to be

the ones to take the reins back so that we can actually get some control over our life and the direction it's going. Well, I'm glad you brought up a minute to thank because last year I interviewed Juliet Font who on the speaking tour, you probably know. And that was the name of a book. And in that book, she brings up a concept that you do as well called white space. And that was the name of a book. And in that book, she brings up a concept that you do as well called white space. And I loved her analogy for describing white space. As if you think about a fire, you can put all the pieces together that you need to make a fire. But if you don't allow for enough room for air, it's never going to catch on. And the same is true for our ideas. So I was hoping for the audience you could discuss this concept of white space and why these

short periods of unscheduled time when recaptured change the very nature of the way we work. Yeah, definitely. So when I think about white space also, I think in a very literal sense, whether you are an old-fashioned paper calendar person, whether you are a digital person, if you're staring at your calendar, and all it is the sea of black ink or the sea of blue blocks that are covering it, that's actually a little terrifying, right? You look at that and you say, oh, wow, there's no margin here. There is no space for anything to go wrong. All of us have situations all the time where it's like client reaches out

and they're like, oh, John, I really need to talk to you. Can you hop on a call? And if you're looking at the next three days and there's literally not even a 15 minute break in between, what are you gonna do? You have to talk to them somehow. It's gonna create this whole cascade of chaos because you're gonna have to move something,

but it's not a good way to live. And so at a minimum, what White Space is talking about, is just giving yourself margin for something to go wrong, because it usually does in some way or another. It's giving yourself margin to do the things that actually help make things work smoothly. If you're going from back to back meetings, you never have time to literally even copy down your notes from the meeting. You literally never even have time to do the simple, stupid follow up thing of like, Oh, I need to email this person to ask them xyz. And you fail to do it and it creates problems down the line.

Whereas if you had 15 minutes afterwards, you could actually get it done. But even at a broader sense where white space matters, I interviewed a few years ago for my book, Stand Out, I interviewed David Allen, who some of your listeners will probably know he's a well-known productivity expert. he's the author of the book getting things done. And he said something that has really stayed with me ever since. He said, when it comes to having breakthrough ideas or innovative ideas, that was the subject of my book stand out, he said, it doesn't take a lot of time. He says what people fail to understand is that what it takes is space. is what people fail to understand is that what it takes is space. And I think it's really a profound distinction. It's not that time alone will solve a problem.

It's not like, oh, good, I have 10 hours. Therefore, I will definitely come up with a brilliant answer or a brilliant idea. However much time it is, doesn't really matter. You could come up with a brilliant idea and it might take you 1,000 hours or it might take you one minute. Time is not the variable. What helps you come up with a brilliant idea and it might take you a thousand hours or it might take you one minute. Time is not the variable. What helps you come up with a brilliant idea is mental space because you need to be in a state of mind

that you are not so harried, you are not so flustered that your brain is able to relax and actually make connections. Actually put pieces together in a different way to see things And that's how you're able to have breakthrough ideas. And the truth is, we will never get to that place. We will literally never get to that brain state if we are constantly frenzied and rushing around. And that's how most of us are living our lives these days. So it's something that is problematic and needs to be corrected. living our lives these days. So it's something that is problematic and needs to be corrected. Yeah, I remember when I came out of the corporate world and started doing more work with small businesses and startups, the failure rate of executives from the corporate world trying to do those jobs is pretty drastic. I think the reason that this happens is you're right. On all these fortune 500 companies that I was in, I'd sit there on a Saturday or Sunday looking at my week ahead.

And across all of it, I might have two three hours of free time, including lunch during an entire week in the rest of it because most of us have executive assistance or obligations we keep accepting these meetings and I realized I was just running my life by meeting and When you're doing that you're not giving yourself any of that strategic time to really do what you're getting paid to do Which is to thank strategically? I just bring that up because I can relate to it well and it takes a really intentional effort to break yourself from that. I started doing on email if I wasn't put in the two box on it and I was just cc'd I would just boulder those away because I just didn't have time to look at 800 emails a day that really didn't matter. Well, I wanna tackle the next thing,

which is in chapter two, you go from, you're now having this strategic thought, you've got this big idea laid out, what's your advice then on how to identify the right goals to going after it? Yeah, so identifying the right goals to go after can be a sticking point for a lot of people, right? They might have some idea, but also it can feel a little bit like a blank page like, I

don't know what should I be doing. One of the first things that I suggest in the long game that I think is important is actually to lower the bar in some ways. We often have this sort of narrative where people feel like they have to have it all figured out, right? I mean, it's existentially comforting to feel like you have it all figured out.

But the truth is most of us don't, most of us come up and feel our way into things. And it's important, I think, to be more honest about that. There is a desire for people and existentially satisfying desire to know, oh, this is my calling, this is my destiny, this is the thing I should be doing. And that's a pretty high bar, right? I mean, even when many of us meet our spouses, you don't necessarily know

right up front that they're the one. And it's equally true for professional obligations or for your career fit. So I am a really big fan of a concept that I call optimize for interesting because if you're waiting to get certainty, oh, this is the path, this is the one for me, that may actually never come. Sometimes you only get that certainty through doing things. The question that I'd rather have people answer rather than like, oh, is this my soulmate kind of profession is to just say, do I find this interesting? Because number one, that's a pretty easy question to answer. Most people can tell you pretty easily, okay, is it interesting to you or not? And also, it's one where you can

just keep going. It's fairly low stakes. If it's interesting, good, keep doing more of it. If it's not, okay, fine, you can pivot, you can do something else. But it gets you started and having that momentum is part of the solution of what will get you to the clarity that you ultimately want and need. Yes, and I was also hoping on top of that, you could discuss your concept, thinking in waves, because I thought that was also very interesting. Yeah, thank you. One of the biggest challenges that I see

and my friend, Marshall Goldsmith wrote an entire book about this, which he famously called, What Got You Here Won't Get You There. It makes sense, right? But there is a real tendency for successful professionals to just keep doing the thing that made them successful. This is logical, but only up to a point, though, because the truth is circumstances change. And eventually, if all you're doing is milking the thing that you like or the thing that you're good at, you are going to find yourself in a situation where that is no longer the appropriate thing or no longer

the appropriate response and you will be caught flat footed. I actually think that one of the most important skills that a professional can have is the ability to smoothly adjust and pivot into new circumstances. Because we're not robots, it does not go well if we literally do the same thing all the time in every single circumstance, you have to adjust to circumstances. And so I talk about the four waves in terms of our careers because I think we're constantly cycling through this. We start out in what I call a learning wave because of course whenever you start a new job or you're starting in a new industry,

you have to figure it out, right? You have to learn, okay, who are the people here? Who's opinion matters? How does this place work? What are the important issues in this industry? What do I need to know to be successful? So you take it all in, you're sponge, you're learning. That's wave number one.

Wave number two, which you need to be smart enough to transition into, is what I call sharing and creating, because that becomes the place where you need to start adding some value back, right? If all you do is just keep being in learning mode where you're never saying anything of your own, you're just taking it in. After a while, people are going to be like, well, why is she here? Is she actually contributing anything? Like she's just taking it in. She's not adding. So you need to start sharing your ideas and you just start sharing your content. You need to start putting your spin on things so that people get it, how you're adding value.

Number three is connecting wave, which is where you start really making an effort. Now that you have a point of view, you have some ideas, start spreading it and start connecting with new people. First of all, that's gonna create a positive reinforcement cycle because your ideas will get better the more you share them with other people and refine them. It'll also probably amplify your ideas

because other people will spread them, but other people are a key part of our learning and growth. And then finally, we enter what I call reeping mode, which is where, yay, you've actually achieved a pretty high degree of success in your company, or in your field. It's worth celebrating. It's worth enjoying. But a very common mistake that people make is they try to hold on to that as long as possible. They feel like, oh, good, I earned that. And so they stop learning, they coast a little bit, and eventually that leads to the path of irrelevancy. And so it's very important at a certain point to get smart enough to re-enter the learning phase

and recognize, you know what, I can't coast forever on the thing I did 20 years ago, I need to keep growing and that's how I keep myself fresh. And by doing that, by understanding what wave we're in, we can actually stay vibrant for a very long and successful career. Yes, and there is a book that talks about a lot of what you described from Arthur Brooks. Actually, number one, New York Times bestselling book called From Strength to Strength. I know that he looks at it as two things

that there's intuitive intelligence, which we have when we're younger. And then I think it's creative intelligence when we're older. And what happens is, oftentimes, we don't move from the first to the second as we get older and then we get stuck. And it's why so many people find themselves plateaued at a point in their career and they're not making the progression. So I think your whole point about what got you here is not going to get you to where you want to go is an extremely important one. Yeah, thank you. And I think that's great. Yeah, Arthur famously, of course, the book was kicked off with this Atlantic article with the most alarming title ever, which is your professional line is coming much sooner than you think. I've been kidding. He reads it as like, oh, Lord.

much sooner than you think. I've been getting a few reads it is like, Oh, Lord. So that's a good thing. He provides a few solutions because otherwise it'd be in trouble. Well, another person who has started had his books in a cautious way has been Robin Sharmaf and I recently had him on the podcast. And he has this famous quote that all changes easy at first, messy in the middle and glorious at the end. And it's this pesky midpoint where so many people get stuck. How do you suggest for listeners that they practice strategic patients to keep persevering when they hit a plateau?

strategic patients to keep persevering when they hit a plateau. Yeah, strategic patients is a theme that I touch on in the long game because I felt it was really important to call it out because the truth is, I mean, everybody would like to be a long-term thinker. That sounds like a great thing to do. Sure. Why not? Yes, absolutely. It's not that we fail because we disagree with the premise. We fail because we fail in the execution. And oftentimes it's because there is a pretty wide gulf between starting out full of enthusiasm. Yes, I'm going to do this. And actually getting to the end, I liken it to a long dark tunnel because if the outcome was guaranteed and the timeline was guaranteed, then most of us would probably be fine. It's okay. Oh, only 300 more yards. Okay, great. We'll keep marching. But the problem with this particular long dark tunnel toward whatever

it is you're trying to do, whether it is get your book published or hit your first million dollars or get a thousand reviews on your podcast or whatever it is. The problem is that we do not know how long this tunnel is and you're in the middle of this tunnel and the truth is you could be very close to the end of it, but you might not. You might be near the beginning and you have no way of knowing. And that fact is so alarming for so many people, they often give up and quit. And I have seen with so many people that I know and have worked with, the fear that a lot of people have

is that they're gonna wait too long and hang on to something that isn't successful. And so they feel like, oh, I should just cut bait here. That's what they worry about is being a sucker. But actually, what I think is probably more of a real concern, because I see it play out time and again, is that they quit too soon on something that could have worked, but it is emotionally difficult and painful to exist in that moment, where you feel like a loser loser because it's not taking off and you're like, well, how much longer should I deal with this? And so it's easier to quit than to keep going and live in that uncertainty. That is a very hard place to be. And so when I talk

about strategic patients, to be clear, I do not mean just like sitting back and like, oh, maybe it'll happen. Maybe I'll get lucky. That's not where it's at. Strategic patients is actually very hard. My synonym for it is muscular patients because you have to be incredibly strong to withstand the doubts of others and the self-doubt most importantly as you navigate this. But for me, what eases it is having a hypothesis of how long something should take, having some metrics that you've identified that you can track against and just making the best estimates that you can so

that you understand that, you know what, this is going to take a while. And frankly, it probably will take longer than I want it to. But it doesn't mean that it's not happening. Of course, depending on how you track your metrics, maybe eventually you'll realize that it's not working, but I think there's far too many people that jump way too quickly to that conclusion. It's not right. Yes, well, you led right into my next question. I recently had a former professional poker player, Annie Duke. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Annie, but she wrote a great book last year called Quit, Knowing When to Walk Away. And she argues that oftentimes we stain things too long when we should fold our cards.

And I wanted to ask you, from your experience, how do you figure out the difference of when you need to play the long game and when you need to walk away? Yeah, this is the question. And I have a couple of thoughts. The first one is that one of the most important elements is scoping up front. It is really hard when you're in the thick of something to make smart decisions about should I quit or should I not? Because you're pretty emotionally invested by this point. And some people, depending on your personality, are invested like, oh, just a little more, just a little more. And I'll get there. This is like the gambler that keeps trying to win back

their their losses. And then there's some people who are just like, oh, forget this. This is never going to work. And they walk away. If they're not based in reality, they're not too helpful. What does base you in reality is scoping up front. And before you get involved, before you get emotionally invested, taking the time to research, OK, what is it exactly I want to accomplish? Has anyone else accomplished this before?

I mean, usually unless we're talking about like creating some new power source from the molten core of the earth or whatever, usually someone has done the thing that you want to do. And so it's really chasing down, either by interviewing them, by talking to them, by reading a book, by doing research, what did it look like?

What did it take? Is this a year-long project? Is this a 10 year-long project? Is this a 10-year-long project? Sometimes people literally don't even bother to do that level of research. And so their estimates are wildly off-base. So getting some kind of a sense of what has been like with other people is really crucial in terms of scoping. So you can make a better estimate of like, is this worth it to me? If it's going to take 10 years, is it still worth it? That's a really important question. The second thing is what I call looking for the rain drops.

What I mean by this is that in the early days of success, it's not like success magically comes all at once. It's not like a switch. Like, oh, he went from unsuccessful to completely successful. In light. That would be nice. That would be nice. It would be so nice. But the truth is, it comes more like a raindrop.

There's going to be a rainstorm. There's maybe even going to be a thunderstorm. But the thunderstorm does not start with the sky opening. The thunderstorm starts, first of all, with the clouds rolling in, the thunderstorm starts with is the air pressure changing a little bit. The thunderstorm starts with drops of rain that are so almost imperceptible. You're like, gosh, was that somebody's air conditioning or was that actually a rain drop? And so you need to train yourself to identify and look for the early metrics, the leading indicators that show that something is working. If you're trying to gain a following,

it's going to be a while before you're playing Madison Square Garden and you're on the front page of magazines, right? But maybe it's smaller metrics like, gosh, I seem to be a while before you're playing Madison Square Garden and you're on the front page of magazines, right? But maybe it's smaller metrics like, gosh, I seem to be getting more unsolicited LinkedIn requests of people who want to connect with me. Gosh, I seem to be getting more requests from podcasters who want to talk to me. And those are the things that it might not be the sort of million dollar success, but it is a sign you're moving in the right direction. We need to see it, we need to notice it,

we need to appreciate it, that's how we know. Okay, and then the last chapter of your book was on a topic that I myself do not do very well. I will admit right off the bat and that is to reap the rewards for my hard work. I find that I will pass a milestone and I might think about it for five, 10 minutes and then I'm right there on the next one.

So what is your advice to the listeners on how they can reap the rewards from their own hard work? Yeah, there's so many people like that, John. And I suffer from it myself at times, even though I try to be mindful of reminding myself, it's very easy to just move on to the next thing and kind of gloss over our successes. But we do need to be recognizing them and appreciating them.

Because otherwise, it's a long hard road. And all you're going to end up with is just the slog, which is not a really fun way to live your life. We do need to find ways to celebrate small wins. And it varies person to person. What's a meaningful way to do it? I mean, maybe it's something like dinner out with your spouse or just pausing to acknowledge

finding some way to commemorate it. In my book, Entrepreneurial You, I actually profiled a cool woman named Stephanie O'Connell, and she started out as this like broke actress, basically. And she ended up reinventing herself as a financial expert. And she did this because she started a blog to help herself, but to do some research and help herself learn about and stay on target with budgeting because it was so expensive to live in New York City as this struggling actress and so she started this personal finance blog for like broke millennials and it started taking off and in the early days

I mean now she's very successful. She has a great social media following. She's on television and all these things but in the early days what she told me was that It was extremely meaningful for her and she did notice, like even things like the very first time that she got offered money to guest blog for somebody. She got offered $25 for a guest post and she said, wow, this is a sign that someone actually values what I have to say enough to pay me for it. Now a lot of people would just say, oh, $25, that's nothing that's so stupid. But she recognized it for what it was.

It was a sign that someone thought she had something worth saying on the subject. And we need to look for those moments and we need to lean into them. Well, thank you for that, Dorian. If the audience wanted to know more about you, what is the best place that they can go to do so? John, thank you so much. It's great to have the opportunity to speak with you. If folks are interested in learning more, I have a lot, like 800,

a lot free articles available on my website at doriklark.com. My newest book is The Long Game. You can learn more and get a free long game strategic thinking self-assessment at DoryClark.com slash The Long Game. Well, I will put a link to that in the show notes and I will definitely put a link to the book and your other books as well.

And I do want to just tell the audience that Dory is a role authoritative source on so many topics. and all you have to do is read her Harvard Business Review articles and before that I think you were Forbes correct. Yeah, yeah, for a few years and for Forbes. Yeah, but you have hundreds of articles out there. Get a master's degree just reading your stuff. So I highly encourage the audience to go check you out. And thank you so much for giving us the honor of having you be on the show. Thank you, my man. I really appreciate it. Thank you for making the time, John. I thoroughly enjoyed that interview with Dory Clark and I hope you did too. And I wanted to thank Dory and the Harvard Business Review Press for giving us the privilege and honor of having her on today's show. Lince all things Dory will be in the show notes at passionstruck.com.

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