Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Dr. Aliza Pressman on the Five Principles for Raising Good Humans EP 405

Starting point is 00:00:00 Coming up next on Passionstruck. I think the thing that we don't know is transition to parenthood actually changes your brain. And you are motivated at that time to make changes that you wouldn't normally have the motivation to make. So a lot of ways to make changes in your life as an adult happen when you are incentivized with kids, like to be your best self in order to serve raising kids. And that is just a very specific time in life where we are really just growing. Welcome to Passionstruck. Hi, I'm your host, John R. Miles.

Starting point is 00:00:37 And on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips, and guidance of the world's most inspiring people and turned their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you. Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself. If you're new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays. We have long-form interviews the rest of the week with guests ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries,

Starting point is 00:01:12 and athletes. Now, let's go out there and become passion struck. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to episode 405 of Passion Struck, consistently ranked by Apple as the number one alternative health podcast in the world. And thank you to all of you who come back to the show every week to listen and learn how to live better, be better and impact the world. I have a special invitation for you. I'm excited to introduce our new passionstruck quiz. It's a unique opportunity for you to discover where you stand on the passionstruck continuum.

Starting point is 00:01:36 Are you an orchestrator who balances various aspects of life with passion and purpose? Or a vanquisher conquering challenges and turning obstacles into opportunities? Take the quiz on passionstruck.com and find out which one resonates more with your journey to living a passionstruck life. If you're new to the show, thank you so much for being here or you simply want to introduce this to a friend or a family member and we so appreciate it when you do that. We now have episode starter packs which are collections of our fans favorite episodes that we organize in a convenient playlist that give any new listener a great way to get acclimated to everything we do here on the show.

Starting point is 00:02:05 Either go to passionstruck.com slash starter packs or Spotify to get started. In case you missed my interview from earlier in the week, it featured Dr. Mark Hyman and we did a deep dive on the future of medicine. And if you liked that previous episode or today's, we would so appreciate you giving it a five star rating and review. They go such a long way in strengthening the passionstruck community where we can help more people to create an intentional life. And I know we and our guests love to hear your feedback. Throughout the month of January, I'm trying to focus the episodes on

Starting point is 00:02:31 everyday heroes who are doing amazing things. Today, I'm thrilled to welcome a special guest, Dr. Lisa Pressman, a developmental psychologist and the beloved voice behind the hit podcast, Raising Good Humans. In today's episode, Dr. Pressman invites us to let go of the pursuit of perfection in parenting. She brings a refreshing perspective that challenges the high pressure norms of modern parenting. With her expert guidance, she encourages us to become transformative, positive influences in our child's lives, while also crafting our own unique definitions of success. Dr. Pressman's approach is grounded in her five principles of parenting, which offer a practical and flexible framework for raising good humans.

Starting point is 00:03:07 These principles, relationship reflection, regulation, rules, and repair aren't about presenting a one-size-fits-all solution. Instead, they emphasize the diversity of successful parenting strategies and acknowledge that there's no single right way to raise a child. Whether you're navigating the challenges of parenting toddlers or teens, Dr. Pressman's insights are invaluable. Her principles help parents and caregivers alike to understand that it's never too late to adopt and improve your parenting approach. Importantly, she emphasizes the journey of personal growth that accompanies the parenting

Starting point is 00:03:36 process. By striving to become more intentional people, we naturally evolve into better parents and in turn, better human beings. With nearly two decades of experience working with families and healthcare providers, Dr. Pressman's expertise is both deep and wide-ranging. She serves as an assistant clinical professor in the Division of Behavioral Health Department of Pediatrics at the Icon School of Medicine at Mount Sinai Hospital and as a co-founded director

Starting point is 00:04:00 of the Mount Sinai Parenting Center. So whether you're feeling overwhelmed by the demands of parenting or simply seeking new strategies to enhance your family's journey, today's conversation with Dr. Elisa Pressman is sure to enlighten and inspire and empower you. Let's dive in and thank you for choosing PassionStruck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life now. Let that journey begin. I am absolutely so thrilled and honored to have Dr. Aliza Pressman, Unpassionstruck. Welcome, Aliza. Thank you for having me. I love to get these interviews started by getting the audience to

Starting point is 00:04:39 get to know you. And you have a really popular podcast called Raising Good Humans, and I love that name. Can you share some more about it? Sure. I started it. I've been working in this field of developmental psychology, which is essentially a niche field in psychology that looks at change over time, how we come to be who we are, cognitive, social, emotional development of humans, and all the stuff that really informs so many things that people don't even realize. And I've worked in this field, and I've worked with lots of families,

Starting point is 00:05:16 and I've worked with lots of healthcare providers, and I teach and all these things, but there's so much amazing content, and there's so many incredible experts that I felt like I had access to and I just wanted to bring them to easier, more palatable conversations than maybe academic journals. And so that was how I ended up starting a podcast. I understand that as you were growing up and going through school that you were really interested in studying the human condition and you started doing that through examining history,

Starting point is 00:05:54 English literature and drama. Can you tell me why those three lenses were so critical for you? I just felt like I had my whole life to figure out like my professional career. But in college, I wanted to understand, first of all, I just wanted to have the opportunity to work with great professors and students that I would never be able to pick up on my own or understand on my own. I just was, I think, if I may, very wise as a youngster to recognize that these kinds of things could be really interesting and to have the privilege of being able to not choose a vocation and really focus on growing my understanding of people. Now, of course, that ended up being

Starting point is 00:06:40 my vocation. It just, it did inform it. But I think studying all of those things from literature to art to theater helps you understand the human condition in a way that is much more easily accessible to people. And then I turned it into, okay, now how can I operationalize this in the science of the human condition? Okay, and I used to live in southern Spain. And so one thing that I loved being there was all the Baroque art. And I understand that you were originally interested in getting a PhD in art,

Starting point is 00:07:22 art history in southern Baroque art or if I have a corrupt. How do you even know that? Have I said that? Was that in my book? Where did that come from? And that is 100% true. I do a ton of research for these because I don't want to repeat the same episode.

Starting point is 00:07:37 So I'd like to... That's fascinating. I totally was obsessed with Southern Baroque art. You're absolutely right. And specifically, I was really interested in Caravaggio. I was really interested in this woman, Artemisia Gentileschi, and I was really interested in how they portrayed like biblical stories. This is so minutiae, but I thought it was so cool how they portrayed biblical stories sometimes

Starting point is 00:08:07 through the lens of man versus woman. I remember this artist, Artemisia Genoleschi, did very famous painting to the very few people who are interested in Southern Provocar about Susanna and the Elders. And it's like a story that had historically been interpreted by artists that were male artists as like this beautiful woman in a garden and elders looking at her, but from admiring her and very pretty. And then this woman, Artemisia Genoleschi, did the same painting, but she made this beautiful woman in the garden much closer up with these onlookers peering at her in a much more disturbing way.

Starting point is 00:08:52 And she looked very vulnerable and I was like teaching a different interpretation and through the eyes of a woman. And for me, all of the work that I did in college, whether it was theater, art, or literature, learning other people's perspectives, to me, is what made me go into this field of psychology. And that painting and that painter and comparing the differences of the styles in that era blew my mind. Not to mention the fact that lots of just techniques came along

Starting point is 00:09:29 in that time about with light and dark, which I thought was fascinating, but I haven't thought about it in 20, 30 years. But that was why, and it makes sense when I look back on my life that I was interested in that, but I don't think at the time I understood why I was so interested. I lived in Spain about an hour south of Seville, but do I remember going to the Ambra with my parents and just how innate everything was. And art has always been a fascination

Starting point is 00:10:01 for me. And even when I was the Naval Academy, I would love the weekends that I could get away and I'd go to the National Mall and just go through all the art museums. I could find and just absorb it all. Well, tying into what you were just saying about theater and drama, I understand that you somehow got introduced to an NYU program called Drama Therapy, which just the sound of it sounds like I would want to take that course. How did that help influence your desire to study developmental psychology? Well, what happened was I really just, I found out there was like an actual field where you could use theater and drama to help children come outside of themselves, and particularly children who had been through trauma. And I thought that would be such a cool way of being of service.

Starting point is 00:10:58 And so I went to look into the program and the head of the program said, it's the middle of the year. You can't start this program now, but you could take some fundamental psych courses so that you're ready and you have done some of the credits before you started the program. And in taking these fundamentals, I fell into this incredible class called Developmental Psychology, and I just fell in love with it

Starting point is 00:11:28 That's great and Through the rest of our interview, we're going to be discussing your amazing book Which I'm holding up right here the five principles of parenting your essential guide to rising Good humans which comes out on January 23rd So pre-order her book while you can and get the goodies that come along with it Good Humans, which comes out on January 23rd. So pre-order her book while you can and get the goodies that come along with it. So one of the things I wanted to ask to maybe get this started is, how do you define a Good Human?

Starting point is 00:11:55 So there is a chapter in my book about this because I don't define it. I would say three things. One, when I say Good Human, I think we all get a feeling. Like we just know what that is, but I don't know that we all define it the same way. So I don't presume to tell the reader, the parent, the person, what their idea of a good human should be. I just am there to guide figuring out

Starting point is 00:12:22 what for you your North Star is and being able to have intention in raising your kids that way and being raising yourself to be that person. What I don't do is say that person has the following qualities because I don't think it's appropriate for me to decide my because it's so like values oriented. So I want to deliver the science and then let each person come up with their values. So for me, I almost prefer asking everybody to close their eyes and imagine what is a good human. And I just know that we all understand what that means. But we all again, interpreted in different ways. Okay. And I want to get into the science here in a second,

Starting point is 00:13:13 but I did want to tell the audience, you have some pretty amazing endorsements. I read the first three and they were from Drew Barrymore, Jennifer Garner and Adam Grant. Pretty darn amazing. And I love the interview that you did with Drew Barrymore, Jennifer Garner, and Annab Grant. Pretty darn amazing. And I love the interview that you did with Drew Barrymore as well. And it seems like you've had really a profound impact on her and the way she is also trying to raise good humans.

Starting point is 00:13:39 So congrats. Yeah, I've been very lucky. The endorsements that I got were generous and it felt really scary sending your book to people to read. And a lot of people in my field also did endorsements where I just knew they've obviously read a lot and I wanted to... That was like, those were the first people who actually saw the book because you've descended pretty early on to get those. So it was nerve-wracking, but I think it felt like if I can get that support and it's authentic and that

Starting point is 00:14:13 book is of service, then awesome. Yeah, it's awesome. And I felt the same way you did as I was sending mine out. I remember sending first two people I sent it to were Seth Godin and Matt Higgins. And Matt ended up coming back and wanting to write it forward for it. And I was just hoping Seth would say, as he comically often does, this book is good enough to pay $27 for one idea. But he actually gave me a really nice endorsement. But it's the one that was the scariest to me is the book in a lot of ways is about self-actualization. And so I asked Scott Berry Kaufman, kind of Mr. Self-Actualization, if he would consider endorsing it.

Starting point is 00:14:53 So that one is one of the most meaningful ones to me. On this podcast, you've brought up intentionality and we talk a lot about behavior science, psychology, and what I call intentional behavior or life design. And I think it's important to go through some of the science behind parenting, because it's interesting that you write that the science shows that it's our own learning curves that are the key to this whole process of raising good humans. Could you explain what you found about that? key to this whole process of raising good humans. Could you explain what you found about that? I think we forget that the day our kids are born is the day we are born as parents.

Starting point is 00:15:37 Maybe you start to feel like a parent right before when you decide to have a kid. And so you're not supposed to know everything right away. And there's this pressure that it's all instinct and just go with your gut. Or there's a thousand things that you're supposed to do. And to me, like when you are developing a skill, you wanna be intentional about what you're practicing, who you're learning from, what it feels like for you, what the plan is. And as you do this and you're learning from, what it feels like for you, what the plan is.

Starting point is 00:16:06 And as you do this and you're thrown in, you have to do it. There's no, let me practice for a little while, but without a kid. Although in a dream world, you'd start thinking about these things before you even have kids. I think you then, and then sometimes you have multiple kids, your growth is exponentially faster with overtime just because you get more comfortable, you get experience. And so I really wanted to capture supporting that feeling of, I know some things, like I have to have some sense of internal efficacy. And also, I wanted to empower people to say,

Starting point is 00:16:45 you don't have to know it all. Here's some pretty easy content that you couldn't possibly have known unless you were in this field, but it's so nice to know. And I think every parent and person has the right to know a lot of the science of how we come to be who we are because it does matter.

Starting point is 00:17:01 And then I think we are so motivated at that time in the transition to parenthood. It's the third largest growth in our brain. And that's true for fathers. It's true for mothers. And it's true for caregivers in general, like whoever the caregivers are. We know like obviously the first few years,

Starting point is 00:17:18 it's the largest brain growth than adolescents. But I think the thing that we don't know is transition to parenthood actually changes your brain. And I think the idea is you are motivated at that time to make changes that you wouldn't normally have the motivation to make. So a lot of ways to make changes in your life as an adult happen when you are incentivized with kids, like to be your best self in order to serve raising kids. We tend to have these more people quit smoking when they find out that they're having a child. More people are able to quit whatever it is that's

Starting point is 00:17:57 been maybe maladaptive or unhealthy for them. That is just a very specific time in life where we are really just growing. And I know when my kids were first born, especially my son, who's six years older than his sister, I was out there looking for books. And it was as if everyone I picked up was on one extreme or the other. Yes. Yes. And what your book reminded me about is I have a concept in my upcoming book called becoming the anxiety optimizer. And what it's all about is you look at anxiety and if it's a tightrope, you can have two different extremes one with way too much anxiety, which is going to cause

Starting point is 00:18:45 ramifications, the same thing with too little anxiety. And I think it's a great analogy for parenting. Can you use that maybe as an analogy to define what a balanced approach to parenting is? Well, I felt very strongly that this book had to be a balanced approach because we're in such an era of polarization. Throughout time, if you just look at parenting books and parenting approaches, it's always these extreme views that get attention. Of course, it's never the answer. To me, the balanced approach is there are two aspects. Then maybe you can help me figure out how it translates to this tightrope metaphor. But I think the first thing in balance is actually balancing yourself, your openness and capacity to figuring out how to take in information in a way that's not using it as so important, it makes you rigid, and then not so irrelevant that it's chaotic. And so I think the balance is

Starting point is 00:19:46 coming between those two extreme spaces. And I think the content of the science has been very clear that it is in this realm of parenting and those five principles. The balance is you don't need to be doing this more than more often than not. You just want to unbalance. This is what you lean on. This is your approach. But there's going to be plenty of times that it's not. And the last thing that I guess was important to me was

Starting point is 00:20:17 naming multiple approaches for certain things where the science isn't clear. The science is like, for example, with sleep. Your kids need to sleep and you need to sleep. That is the science isn't clear. The science is like, for example, with sleep. Your kids need to sleep and you need to sleep. That is the science. How that happens, there are some studies about the approaches to get your child to sleep. And so of course I give all the suggestions. Like if you are this type of person, try it this way. If you're this type of person who feels more comfortable

Starting point is 00:20:44 in with a softer touch, try it this way. But I was very clear, you can choose your own adventure as long as you meet the science where it is, which is that sleep matters. And that's the easiest way to have a balanced approach in my view is find the kernel of science that really matters and then figure out the parts of it that you can interpret in ways that when in how you're living your life and how you're responding to your kids and recognize that any of the extreme stuff is just for marketing. I love how you ended that. My analogy of how I would use it as a parent is I think you have parents who are on one extreme where they're so hands-on in the way that they're parenting,

Starting point is 00:21:31 that they're actually overbearing and over-influencing the development of their child, and then you have others who almost ignore their kids. And so the child, it could be the parent who has to work all the time, and so there's no one at home. And the child becomes too self sufficient. The way I like to look at it is you need to be eyes on, but hands off, meaning you need to instill the child with the skills that they need to have, but you need to be hands off enough to allow the child to explore and to make their own mistakes. Because I found with my kids, I wanted them to make mistakes earlier in life by trying things out because it becomes more painful the older you get as I found in my own life. Yeah, absolutely. It's also as when you're younger and you're making mistakes in the

Starting point is 00:22:19 support system of having your family there, it's quite different. And it's pretty nice to know that you can make mistakes over and over, and that gives you space to grow. And when you have, if it's at a time when you're younger, you usually, they aren't so dire. And you get the sort of muscle memory of the fact that making mistakes is part of growth and not the end of the world. I think there's another issue with balance or not issue.

Starting point is 00:22:46 Another way to look at balance, which is very much how the research looks at parenting styles, that there's three typical parenting styles apart from neglect, which we don't even talk about in the book, because if you are a neglectful parent, you're not buying a parenting book. This is a self-selecting audience of people who are motivated to be the best parents

Starting point is 00:23:05 that they can be for their child. So the three parenting styles are typically authoritative, authoritarian, and permissive. And the permissive parenting style, and these have been around for decades, like this is not me, this is just what the developmental science has looked at. Across cultures and communities,

Starting point is 00:23:23 and obviously I'm making it very oversimplified, but essentially it looks at two dimensions, sensitivity of care and demanding this is just another wonky way of saying expectations, control, limits, things like that. And so permissive parents are very high. They score super high on sensitivity of care. They're so attuned to their kids. They're almost best friends with them. But the reason that they're in the best friend mode

Starting point is 00:23:51 is because they don't typically feel comfortable with their child having difficult feelings or their part. This is true with relationships in general, but they are not as good at holding boundaries and limits when they see a child having a negative reaction or having a hard feeling. The scale tips so that the sensitivity is very high and the demandingness is very low. The reverse of that is authoritarian parenting, where the sensitivity is very low. And the reverse of that is authoritarian parenting, where the sensitivity

Starting point is 00:24:26 is very low and the demandingness is quite high. And for those parents, it's much more because I said so, it's much more outcomes and goals oriented, but not really connected. And there's this Goldilocks parenting, which is authoritative parenting. And that's the one that the science says leads to the best outcomes that we're typically looking for, both intellectually and emotionally. And that's where there's both sensitivity of care and attunement and connection. You really have that close relationship. And also you're sturdy in your rules.

Starting point is 00:25:01 You understand that it's safe to have rules and expectations and limits and that you're not best friends, that you are in fact running the ship. And so that balance is a different part of this conversation, which is the balanced approach in parenting instead of being like the extreme of one or the other. And that usually always leads to better feels for everybody. But it's hard if you don't explore and reflect on what your experience being parented was. Like if you had a parent who anytime you didn't like a rule,

Starting point is 00:25:38 they were like, okay, then nevermind. It's gonna be really hard for you to feel comfortable having those rules with your kids because it just won't feel like it wasn't baked into your body over your early experiences. And so it's something to look at because if you want to intentionally be a balanced kind of Goldilocks parent, you have to pay attention to what your experiences were when you were younger. Oh, I think that's a great explanation.

Starting point is 00:26:09 And I want to ask you a question later on about how if you were influenced one way by a parent, do you learn to parent a different way, which can be tough? But I think before we even get there, we've mentioned the five principles of parenting a couple of times now. And sometimes when people lay out principles in the book, I don't like to go through all of them because that's the whole book. But in yours, you put them out in the first two sentences of the book. Yeah. And the book then is about explaining how to utilize these, which I want to use for the rest of this interview. So can you lay out the five principles of parenting and how they can transform the way we approach parenting?

Starting point is 00:26:48 I really did want to put them right out there. And I didn't want the book to be like chapter one, is this principle chapter two is the next principle? I really wanted it to be baked into all of the different kinds of challenges that get thrown our way because that's how life works. You don't have things in this exact linear experience. Something happens in your households. I want everybody to have, by the time they get through the book, I want everyone to be able to translate how those five principles might come into play. I don't think you can do that by just learning the principles themselves. But I'm going gonna tell the principles now

Starting point is 00:27:25 because I do think that they, just to even understand what the developmental, the science of human development tells us are the five most important principles in raising kids that are in our control. I didn't use one of the core principles of a peaceful environment with no socioeconomic differences and no strife, no pandemics, no politics. None of that is in our control.

Starting point is 00:27:55 So it's nothing to do with this book. So I chose five principles that are rooted in science, that we have control over just ourselves since we can't control anyone else, and that are shown in science over time in multiple contexts and cultures. So those are relationship, reflection, regulation, rules, and repair. And if you can really understand those concepts and get into the habit of using them to inform

Starting point is 00:28:28 how you respond to your kids and how you make decisions, you really are doing absolutely the best you can to contribute to building resilient kids. And I was thinking as I was reading this, Aliza, I'm not sure if you know who Elizabeth Latia is. She did her master's studies under Angela Duckworth at... Oh, yeah. Well, I know Angela. And then she ended up going back to Finland to get her PhD, but she studies Sisu, which is the Finnish science of resilience. It's basically the art of resilience that they teach all the kids, and that's their parenting style. So I thought it would be an awesome match to figure out how do you

Starting point is 00:29:13 see Sue to raise good humans, basically. But I wanted to go back to these five principles just for a second, because I'm assuming that as children are growing from toddlers, school-aged children, then to teenagers, you're going to have to apply them differently. Is that a good way to think about it? Absolutely. The principles remain the same. The application is different. It's why the way I structure the book, I tried to say here's what it would look like at each age for whatever challenge or topic I was talking about. Because I think once you get in the habit of doing that,

Starting point is 00:29:50 it actually becomes quite easy. One of the chapters I enjoyed and you already went into it, so I'm not going to have you redo it, was raising good parents. But I want to go back to the question I was going to ask you. Because I came from a situation where I had a Marine Corps father who was very much hands-on, high expectations, disciplinarian type of parent. And I realized that when my son was growing up for the first few years, I was modeling so much of his parental style, which is what I grew up myself with. But realized that for me, it had a lot of detrimental impacts, and I didn't want to do the same thing to my son. So I ended up working my way out of it and changing the prototype that I was using, but it was really a struggle. What do you recommend for parents who are in that same situation where because we reflect what raised us, obviously?

Starting point is 00:30:52 Right. Well, I think that's like that principle of reflection, which I believe doesn't get as much. It feels like you can skip it. You know what I mean? Like reflecting doesn't feel like it's such a big deal. How could it really change my relationship with my kids and how they pan out? But when you do that work, and I think you gave an example of reflection right there, is really digging into asking yourself, and of course, if you feel like your experience was really challenging, it's an opportunity to seek out professional support

Starting point is 00:31:29 to do this process, if you feel like you need that kind of just guidance. I think there's nothing wrong with realizing, wait a second, there's a lot to unpack about my history. Like when I think about what it was like when I got upset when I was a kid, how did my parents react? Or when I think about what my parents said to each other when they were mad at each other. Or when I think about if I broke a rule, what happened? Or

Starting point is 00:31:56 when I think about if I had a feeling, would I share it? Was it safe? Like all of those kinds of questions and being reflective about what those experiences were like are just asking those of yourself. Just saying, huh, I have a little quiz in the book of just asking yourself if you are or were parented in a particular way, like permissive, authoritative, or authoritarian. And I think just asking yourself the questions gets your brain thinking, oh, okay, this is informing a lot of my responses in the world. And of those responses, which ones do I feel good about and which ones do I feel like I

Starting point is 00:32:36 don't like that? I don't like the fact that I bubble over with anger when my child leaves dishes everywhere? Is it because I'm actually like angry at the dishes and the fact that they're leaving dishes everywhere? Or am I remembering that that was really important in my household and I'm feeling very disrespected because that's not happening in this household. And I wonder if I'm just gonna raise a slob. It's just really helpful to think about,

Starting point is 00:33:03 these are silly examples, but it's really helpful to think about these are silly examples, but it's really helpful to think about those things. And of course, you want to ask yourself, well, how was I disciplined? Was corporal punishment used? Was I spanked? Was I afraid? Was it fear-based? And would I have lied over getting into trouble? Because that's very scary, especially if you have teenagers. You don't want your kids to think that it's worse to tell you than it is to end up at the police station or the hospital. So I think that reflection is what we can do to question and then to move forward and asking yourself what your experience was and what

Starting point is 00:33:46 you're looking for can be really helpful. It's super helpful if you have a partner who's also up for that conversation. Sometimes you just start with a question. I think if you even just think about those parenting styles that I mentioned and you ask yourself, was I raised primarily in a more permissive household, a more authoritative household, or a more authoritarian household? That question alone can bring up lots of interesting stuff. And the act of just, again, reflecting makes you more intentional as a person. You just don't go on the autopilot that we go on. I don't want to think about that. I'm just going to go.

Starting point is 00:34:26 And I know another thing that I felt when I first became a father was that there was this expectation that I had to be a perfect parent. And you write that striving for perfection and parenting actually counteracts the goal of being a good parent. Why is that so? I think that if I tried, I even wanted to name the chapter, perfect parenting is the enemy of perfect parenting, but we changed it to the perfect parenting is the enemy of good parenting for clarity. But I really meant if you are aiming for perfect, if you really want to get this right, which of

Starting point is 00:35:01 course you do, we all do. Come on, these are our children. But if you really want to serve them and you're super high achieving, then know that in being a B parent, like just not quite perfect, but good is better for your children. Because witnessing a perfect parent is so burdensome. It's not true. because witnessing a perfect parent is so burdensome. It's not true. And your kids grow up and they ask themselves,

Starting point is 00:35:30 why can't I do this when my parent could? And the truth is that wasn't because your parent could. It was because you don't know what was going on under the hood. And so I really encourage parents to openly make mistakes for the purposes of modeling how we navigate mistakes and how we bounce back from mistakes. And you can't be a perfect parent if you're making like theoretically if you're perfect you wouldn't make the mistakes and then your kids would miss out on that.

Starting point is 00:36:02 It's really important. If you really want to convince yourself, you have to imagine if anybody listening had a perfect parent, how that was for you. If you actually thought your parents were perfect, what did that do for you when you went out into the world and made any mistakes or had trouble doing something or got tired or thought this is overwhelming. You would question if you're less than and that is not the voice we want in our kids' heads.

Starting point is 00:36:34 Absolutely not. I remember when I was a senior executive, I one time went on this job interview for a prospective job and they asked me what my leadership style was and I Think they were expecting me to say I was a servant leader. I was this type of leader, etc And I said I practiced situational leadership and I remember the interviewer didn't like it But what I was trying to tell them is that you can't always use a one-size-all always use a one-size-all leadership style because you have to personalize it to not only the situation, but the person that you're leading. While some people might like very clear direction and high-pressure environments, you have other employees who that would completely turn them off. And I think the same thing goes with the way we need to parent. And I liked how you had a chapter on the need to personalize your parent, because at least with my two kids, they

Starting point is 00:37:31 couldn't be more black and white in the differences between what motivates them, what excites them, how each of them takes direction, et cetera. So how do you embrace as a parent that the understanding that every child is unique and that you've got to, as I was saying, adopt different parenting styles to fit the individual? Yeah, I think that's just we have to accept. You have two choices. You can make an intentional decision that you're going to pay attention to the unique child that you have and parent accordingly, or you can parent exactly the same for both and just watch what happens.

Starting point is 00:38:13 But you have to adapt your parenting or you're not intentional. You're not realizing that, oh, wait a second. This one kid has such good executive function skills. I didn't have the experience of having to make lists with them about and plans for how they were going to get their work done or give them scaffolding with making sure they didn't forget things and how they could get into good habits that could wire in so that they have an easier time with their executive function skills.

Starting point is 00:38:47 But then you have this next kid who, if you treated them the same way and were like, good luck and Godspeed, I assume you know what to do, they are lost. And so you really wanna find that through the experience of adapting your parenting for their temperament. And I know a common thing, at least with my kids, is for one, using timeouts really worked well. For the other one, it didn't work as well at all. In fact, it didn't work at all. In fact,

Starting point is 00:39:23 it just made her more defiant. Disregulated and defiant. Exactly. And then you learn, right? Okay. This is not the approach I'm going to take because it's backfiring. I think that's a good lead in to we all make mistakes. And I've made my fair share as a parent. How do you approach or recommend people approach their own mistakes? Because it's hard to want to self-reflect in that way. But I think it's just as we make mistakes in life,

Starting point is 00:39:54 we make mistakes as a parent, and you have to use those as learning opportunities for growth. Is that how you see it as well? Totally. Not only learning opportunities for growth, but modeling opportunities for self-compassion. I think both of those things. I just think we have to name the mistakes.

Starting point is 00:40:12 Just not pretend that they didn't happen or justify them, but just say that was not good judgment on my part, or I wish I hadn't done that, or I've been thinking about it. And here's where I on my part or I wish I hadn't done that or I've been thinking about it. And here's where I, what I've reflected and led a path forward, all those things. And I think if you don't do that as a parent, because you think it undermines your authority, you don't realize that it actually expands your authority. It expands the respect, it expands the mutual connection, and it expands the capacity for everybody. So do you think it's wise to let your kids know that they made a mistake, or that you made a mistake in a situation, or do you think that they see it in how you correct the mistake

Starting point is 00:40:59 when you encounter similar situations? I think you have to be pretty explicit with young people. I think you have to be explicit because they're going to make up the stories that they make up. And so it's really helpful. And again, not all the time, but more often than not, it's really helpful when you are explicit, whoa, here's this mistake that I made. And I want to tell you about it.

Starting point is 00:41:22 And it doesn't even have to be about your parenting. It could be about something that happened at work. But it's here's the mistake. I'm looking at it as a challenge. Here's how I've come out to here's my process for dealing with it. Now, obviously, if you're really dysregulated and it's stressing you out and you can't figure out a path forward, it's not the time to scare your kids into thinking that you don't know how to manage your own experiences. But so you might want to do your own bit of work first before talking about it with your kids. But I absolutely think we can get more comfortable acknowledging mistakes in front of our kids as long as we are both self-compassionate and we are accountable and we are ready for growth and change. An area that I think I need to go into with you is navigating co-parenting challenges because unfortunately,

Starting point is 00:42:16 so many people are getting divorced these days or were never married to begin with when they had the kids. And I know for me, this presented itself when my kids were 10 and 16. And it was extremely challenging because we had different parenting styles. But what would your recommendation be, again, a situation where one of them is acting as if they're the friend to the children. Especially as they're entering adolescence, which the kids are loving because it's giving them freedom. But the other parent is more of the Goldilocks and they're trying to set some balance, yet the kids are gravitating more and more

Starting point is 00:42:59 to the one who is acting as their friend. I think this comes up a lot. And the two things to remember with co-parenting, one is you can only control yourself. And so if you just double down on your commitment to those five principles, and that what really feels like your own intentional parenting, it's a long game.

Starting point is 00:43:21 And the benefits will be enormous because relationship is such a huge part of it. And relationships always do better with boundaries and limits. It's just in the short term, it's always easier to be around people that don't have boundaries and limits. But you can't change how the co-parent is. And so you're not going to be able to change that if you hold true to those boundaries and limits,

Starting point is 00:43:45 those rules as the fourth principle, that you're not going to be the favored one. But if you are super intent on connecting and having a close relationship, your boundaries and rules are not going to be a problem. Even if you're not the choice house to go to when there's a party or something, in the long game of it, your relationship is what matters. And relationships always feel more safe and stable in the context of the structure.

Starting point is 00:44:18 Okay, thank you for sharing that. One of the chapters I wanted to make sure we touched on was the science of awe and play. And I want to touch on both of them. I wrote an article several years ago on the importance of adult play. And for years, it was the most popular article I ever wrote. So it shows me how top of mind this is to many people. But one of the my favorite episodes that I've ever done on my podcast was interviewing Dacker Keltner, who I think you might know because you studied at Berkeley. And we were talking about his latest book on awe. And what was so interesting to me about his

Starting point is 00:44:59 studies is we think of awe and how it comes up in seeing great works of art like we talked about earlier, maybe a natural wonder, the birth of a child. But what I loved about his exploration was that we see it the most by observing others performing acts of kindness or ourselves performing acts of kindness. And I wanted to ask to get through that, how does awe in play help us maybe through that lens? And how does that contribute to a child's development? Well, I think the short answer is that play is this natural way that kids connect, engage, interact.

Starting point is 00:45:43 It's how they learn. It's everything. Play equals learning. And if we, as the adults, are struggling to connect through play because we're just bad at play as we get older, we just forget how to play. I think we all crave it. Then we're able to take a step back and really observe.

Starting point is 00:46:03 I highly recommend observing kids in play, not just interacting with them, but really just enjoying the experience of watching them play as their brains are unfolding. It's so awe-inspiring. And also, especially the first time you have a kid when you're just watching them develop, you're just like, oh my God, some of it's so extraordinary. And I still find it extraordinary all these years later, and I know the predictable course of development. So I think that one thing is just giving yourself,

Starting point is 00:46:38 finding those moments of awe in everyday growth and development. And then of course, you are being, you are giving in that moment, you are giving your attention. And your attention is the most valuable commodity these days. So I think it's quite generous and wonderful. And of course, seeing and experiencing just like the interactions between humans as they're developing and as they're learning to be kind to one another and as they're learning to consider each other's perspectives.

Starting point is 00:47:11 Like even in pretend play, it's so mind blowing when you see like a child is creating a different world and sticking with it. Like they're answering a question in the character of someone else and that means they're imagining what someone else would be thinking in that same context. So it is extraordinary. And it really grows the muscles, like the brain muscles, but it's also an opportunity, I think, to get closer and an opportunity for a little bit more of the delight that we miss out on in parenting? Yeah, absolutely. And my first cousin has an 18-month-old and I got to recently spend some time with them when I was visiting DC. And it's just amazing to look back at that age and just see

Starting point is 00:48:00 how quickly they're picking up on things, but how they take what you are talking about and then turn it into characters or situations that they then use as imaginary play zone. So it's fascinating. It's so fascinating, but you have to have that mindset of awe and delight in order to really appreciate it and really notice. If we're rushing through and we've got an agenda in play, we miss out on those opportunities. So Aliza, I wanted to end on this question, and that's advice for new parents. What's one piece of advice you would give to new parents just starting on their parenting journey?

Starting point is 00:48:42 I would say, talk to each other about your intentions and make a family value statement. I think that can be really helpful to give yourself a North Star in your parenting. Okay, and for those who want to learn more about you, where's the best place for them to go? You can go to my website, DrLiza.com or you can go to Instagram. I'm at Raising Good

Starting point is 00:49:06 Humans podcast. And I have a sub stack, DrLizaPressman.substack.com. And I have the five principles of parenting out wherever you get books, ideally local bookshops. Thank you so much for being on the show. It was such an honor to have you. Thank you so much for having me, really. That was such a joy and a totally different context for talking about all of this. I thoroughly enjoyed that interview with Dr. Elisa Pressman, and I wanted to thank Elisa for joining us on today's program. It was such an honor to have her. Links to all things Elisa will be in the show notes at passionstruck.com. Please use our website links

Starting point is 00:49:47 if you purchase any of the books from the guests that we feature here on the show. All proceeds go to supporting the show. Videos are on YouTube, both at our main channel at John R. Miles and our clips channel at Passionstruck Clips. Please check it out and subscribe. Advertisers, deals and discount codes

Starting point is 00:50:01 are in one convenient place at passionstruck.com slash deals. I wanna remind you that you can also sign up for the Passionstruck Challenge by going to passionstruck.com. These are 50 weeks of curated challenges that we deliver in our weekly newsletter that will help anyone on their journey to creating a passionstruck life. I'm on all the social platforms at John R. Miles and you can also sign up for our work-related newsletter, Work Intentionally on LinkedIn. You're about to hear a preview of the Passionstark podcast interview that I did with Robert Sutton, professor of management science at the Stanford University School of Engineering and author

Starting point is 00:50:34 of the brand new book, The Friction Project, How Smart Leaders Make the Right Things Easier and the Wrong Things Harder. Here's the irony, John. I recently heard this, and it's resonating with me. So in the last few months, someone said it's easier to go 100% than it is like 95% because it makes choice very clear. So an all-in team has clarity on what the goal is for the collective team and has a reason to contribute 100% of themselves.

Starting point is 00:51:03 And the leader speaks that too. The individual is as important as the team and the team is as important as the individual. Remember that we rise by lifting others. So share this show with those that you love and care about. And if you found today's episode with Dr. Elisa Pressman useful, then definitely share it with family or friends

Starting point is 00:51:18 who can use this information to make their lives better. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so that you can live what you listen. Now, go out there and become passion-struck.

Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Dr. Aliza Pressman on the Five Principles for Raising Good Humans EP 405

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