Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Dr. Lucia Aronica on the Impact of Personalized Nutrition on Epigenetics EP 384

Starting point is 00:00:00 coming up next on PassionStrike. For me, individualizing epigenetics can be done right now and in a very easy way. So we first start from the universal principles. In general, we know that an epigenetically complete diet involves animal foods and plant foods. We know how these foods nourish our epiginum. Then we need to personalize to people preferences and conditions. Welcome to PassionStruct.

Starting point is 00:00:33 Hi, I'm your host, John Armiles. And on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips, and guidance of the world's most inspiring people and turn their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you. Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself. If you're new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays. We have long-form interviews the rest of the week with guest ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators,

Starting point is 00:01:06 innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries and athletes. Now, let's go out there and become PassionStruck. Hello everyone, and welcome back to episode 384 of PassionStruck. Consistently ranked by Apple is one of the top 10 most popular health podcasts globally and the number one alternative health podcasts in the world. And thank you to all of you who come back weekly to listen and learn how to live better, be better, and impact the world. I am so excited to announce that I just learned my new book Passion Struck was selected by

Starting point is 00:01:36 the next big idea club as one of their must read books for 2024. Absolutely a humbling recognition. It's now available for pre-order and you can find it at Amazon or on the PassionStrike website. Throughout the months of December and January, how we use in my solo episodes to discuss different aspects of the book, leading up to its launch. This past week, I covered the topic of self-doubt if you want to go back and review that. If you're new to the show, thank you so much for being here. Or you simply want to introduce this to a friend or a family member. we have episode Sturderpacks, which

Starting point is 00:02:07 are collections of our fans' favorite episodes that we organize in convenient topics. That give any new listener a great way to get acclimated to everything we do here on the show. Either go to Spotify or PassionStruct.com slash Sturderpacks to get started. Last week I had two phenomenal interviews. The first was with retired astronaut Dr. Mike Massimino. From growing up as a working class kid with a dream as vast as the cosmos, just wrapping himself into a NASA space shuttle and orbiting our beautiful planet, Mike has experienced a journey that is nothing short of extraordinary. In our interview, we discuss his new book, Moon Shot, which is not just a memoir, it's a roadmap for success,

Starting point is 00:02:43 that's packed with wit, wisdom, and the unique perspective of a man who's seen our world from a vantage point you ever will. The second was Gordy Ball, the founder of the conscious thought revolution, an author of the new best selling book, The New Millionaires Playbook, Seven Keys to Unlock Freedom, Purpose, and Abundance. And if you liked those previous episodes or today's, we would appreciate you giving a five star rating and review. They go such a long way in strengthening the passion's mini where we can help more people

Starting point is 00:03:09 to create an intentional life. We, and our guests, love to hear your feedback. Today, I have the privilege of sitting down with an esteemed guest whose work is at the forefront of revolutionizing our understanding of genetics, health, and longevity. The genes we inherit are indeed the luck of the draw, and for so long it was believed that our genetic blueprint was etched in stone, but today we embark on a journey to challenge that notion. While we may not change our height or hair color at will, a realm of unprecedented influence

Starting point is 00:03:38 over our genetic destiny has emerged. Dr. Lucia Aranaka, a lecturer at the Stanford University, an instructor of the Stanford Genomic Certificate Program, has dedicated her career to unraveling the intricate dance between nutrition, genetics, and epigenetics. Her research and teaching have illuminated a profound impact of her daily choices on our genes and overall well-being. You know how much I love to talk about the power of microchoises, so this episode is absolutely up my alley. With over 15 years of research experience at prestigious institutions worldwide, including Stanford, Oxford, Vienna, and USC, Dr.

Starting point is 00:04:15 Aronicus contributions to her own journals have reshaped the landscape of genetic science. Dr. Aronicus wisdom underscores a powerful truth if you aspire to be strong and vital at any age, you possess the means to make it a reality. In today's discussion, we embark on a captivating journey into the enchanting world of epigenetics. A field that challenges the notion that our genes are immovable pillars. Instead, it reveals an astounding truth. We wield far more influence of our genetic destiny than we ever imagined. Epigenetics invites us to explore our daily habits from our dietary choices to our sleep

Starting point is 00:04:48 patterns. Even our social interactions can sculpt our genetic blueprint and profoundly transform our health on a cellular level. Every decision you make, every lifestyle choice you embrace and sway the way your genes are expressed. Turning them off or on, these dynamic changes are what we call epigenetic changes, and they offer you the ability to counter hereditary health concerns and define the aging process. So, I'm so excited for you to hear this

Starting point is 00:05:13 captivating conversation with Dr. Lucia Aronica as we uncover the secrets of epigenetics and discover how biology can help us lead healthier, fuller lives. It's time to unlock the potential within ourselves and rewrite our genetic stories. Thank you for choosing PassionStruck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life. Now let that journey begin. I am so excited today to have Dr. Lucia Aranaka on PassionStruck. Welcome, Lucia. Thank you for having me, John. I'm excited to meet you and your audience today. Well, thank you. I'm excited for you to be here. And one of my favorite countries I've ever visited has been Italy. And as you and I were talking before you came on the show, I've been

Starting point is 00:05:59 there 20 plus times from Sicily all the way up through Northern Italy and everywhere else. And you grew up in Naples. Can you tell me a little bit about how growing up in Naples influenced you and the life that you've led? Oh, yes. Naples, I'm a proud Neapolitan. Naples, the rough city, it's a complex city, just like biology. It's a mess, but that's why it's so beautiful. And it teaches you to navigate complexity, the complexity of life

Starting point is 00:06:40 and then brace its beauty. It's in Naples where I fall in love with food. And Italy in general food is very important. Not only what we eat, but also how we eat it. We also eat it in company, with a family. And we give an important value to the preparation of food. So something striking that I noticed when I moved to the U.S. is that here people value convenience. For example, for many people, it's so cool that you can buy something ready to it and then just turn on the microwave and it's ready in five minutes. would rather skip the meal rather than doing something like that, eating something in a box

Starting point is 00:07:46 that doesn't have all the magic of the preparation behind it and anticipating the food and eating it with people or at least taking the time to eat it properly. So this is I think something that tells you a lot about how probably Italian people are more resistant to the pressure that food manufacturing are making us believe that something that is quick, easy, it's good for us. Another related thing that is far more common here than in Italy, actually, I never seen in Italy, I think I will never see it. It's people eating or drinking in the car while they are driving. Every time I see it, I think, first, this is dangerous, but first, this is dangerous, but second is just negating the power of food and taking the time to connect with food. Life is all about connections, whether these are intentional or not, but we connect with the world around us. And food is the ultimate practice of connected with yourself and your environment around you.

Starting point is 00:09:09 You do it every day, multiple times a day, and you train this muscle of connecting you with your environment, exchanging pleasure and cues like learning and being also curious, the food and the flavors in your mouth. I think this is a striking difference from somebody coming from another country, especially Italy and living here. And I consider myself now an hybrid. So I have some aspects of an Italian and some of an American and an international person. So I think this is fascinating to me. I remember when I moved to Spain and I was in my early 20s, how different the supermarkets were there. Because as a teen and a young adult, I worked in a lot of supermarkets in the United States. And so much of our food, as you mentioned, is ready to make or has tons of preservatives in it.

Starting point is 00:10:13 And what struck me when I lived in southern Spain was the supermarkets were so small. And most of the Spaniards would go every single day to get fresh food. Whereas in the States, we tend to go and get a week or longer duration of food. And just the freshness that you experienced in Spain compared to the way I had grown up was just such a revelation to me. And it's something, as you mentioned, that I saw all throughout my travels in Italy as well. So definitely different cultures and the way that we express ourselves around food.

Starting point is 00:10:52 But what I wanted to ask is growing up in Italy, what led you on this journey to ultimately ending up at Stanford University where you're at today? ending up at Stanford University where you're at today. It's a long, fascinating journey. First of all, I was a nerd at school since my high school times. So I loved just learning new things. Knowledge was my fuel. And during my high school, I was passionate about literature, philosophy, latin and ancient Greek. We were studying all the in very

Starting point is 00:11:32 details, the humanities. And when the time came to choose university path, I decided to change completely just because I'm so curious. I was like, okay, I've never ventured really and never deepened my knowledge in the sciences. And at that time, it was the year 2000. And the human genome project, the first draft was just completed. So there was a lot of excitement around the possibility

Starting point is 00:12:06 that knowing the sequence of the human genome would reveal lots of secrets about human biology. And I thought, I want to go into this field. Also, my father was a doctor and he died when I was 14. And I am the most rational person in the family. And I felt I can, I didn't want to become a medical doctor because I didn't want to see people get sick and die. The death of my father was a profound event in my life and I didn't want to experience that anymore. But I wanted to, in a way, follow his path and do something as a scientist in the medical field to benefit people, but from another lens, without having to deal and see sick people

Starting point is 00:13:08 every day. I decided to start a program in medical biotechnology. It was a brand new program in Naples. There were only 30 people selected through a test. It felt like being in a high school classroom and I was at the university. It was a very selective program and most of my classmates that time are now professors,

Starting point is 00:13:35 very famous people and it was great. And then after my university master again, my thirst of knowledge told me Italy is not enough. I don't want to do a doctorate in Italy. I want to do a doctorate abroad. So I applied for several PhD programs in Europe and I took a year off just to travel through Europe and get interviewed.

Starting point is 00:14:07 And then I decided to go to Vienna because, again, they had a position for a PhD in epigenetics and specifically in an epigenetic mechanism that was discovered only a few years ago and for which in 2006, the Nobel Prize for Medicine was awarded. The name of this epigenetic mechanism is RNA interference. And this was my first encounter with epigenetics since then I've worked with different epigenetic mechanisms. We can then explain in more detail what epigenetics is and what these mechanisms are. But then I moved from Vienna to Oxford to do a postdoc in another epigenetic mechanism, and then finally here, a Stanford,

Starting point is 00:15:06 where I'm studying epigenetics in the context of nutrition and how different diets affect this fascinating world of epigenetics. Well, thank you for that. And the way you and I got interested was from a friend of both of ours, Dr. Carifit's Gerald. And I remember I was so excited to interview Carif about her book, because when it came out, she was explaining a trial that she had done, which was one of its first of its kind,

Starting point is 00:15:40 that through natural intervention, she was able to show that she could lower people's biological age and the crux of what she was studying was the impact of epigenetics on our lifespan and biological age. With that as a backdrop, can you provide an overview of what epigenetics is and why it's so crucial for our understanding of our health and longevity? for our understanding of our health and longevity? Yes, gladly so. The prefix epi means on the top from the Greek language. So epigenetics literally means on the top of genetics. So if our DNA is our genome, then our epigenome is a set of molecular tags of molecules that

Starting point is 00:16:32 sit atop our DNA and regulate the expression of genes. So whether they are on or off, actually it's more like a modulation than really an on or off switch. And this process of gene expression explains why cells and organisms with the same DNA can look different from each other. Think of identical twins that with time can look different with each other and even develop a different predisposition to disease, or the caterpillar and the butterfly. They look completely different from each other, but they have the same DNA is just that in the process of becoming a butterfly, there are genes that are turned on and off.

Starting point is 00:17:41 And even in our body, we have 300 types of different cells and they all have the same DNA. How it is possible is because we have the same DNA in every single cell of our body, but each of them as a different epigenome. So you can think of the DNA as hardware and epigenome as software that tells the cell which genes to turn on or off, to activate the protein responsible for its function and identity. And now, the most fascinating aspect of epigenetics is that, unlike our genes, epigenetic marks are flexible, are dynamically remodeled by lifestyle factors, things like diet, environmental toxicant, and even emotions, stress. And so these factors collectively are described as the exposome. So all the things we are exposed to every day, and epigenetics explains these interactions between exposome and genetics. And why we know that our genes, in general, contribute only to 25% of our response to our complex traits, even chronic diseases, in general.

Starting point is 00:19:37 And I'm talking, of course, there are exceptions. There are monogenic diseases where you inherit a mutated gene and you have the disease. But for most traits and genetic variants, the environment has a bigger role. And the reason is that the environment talks to our genes through epigenetics. genes through epigenetics. The link to longevity is that because epigenetics measures response to environmental factors also changes with time and in a way, in the past 10 years, so-called epigenetic clocks have been developed. These are tests that we can do with blood samples or saliva samples, and we can measure And we can measure thousands of epigenetic changes and measure their association with so-called biological age. We used to think to our age in chronological terms.

Starting point is 00:20:58 We celebrate our birthdays and that is our chronological age. The biological age is an idea, a construct, that expresses the very intuitive idea that we have, that we may look younger or older than our age. And this looking younger or older is our biological age. So this is an intuitive concept. There is really not one single measure. We will never be able to measure biological age.

Starting point is 00:21:39 But there are different ways, scientists estimate, read this biological age, and one of them is by using this epigenetic clocks that measure the passing of time from the perspective of the epigenum. So going a little bit deeper into that, I've taken a number of these tests where supposedly they're able to measure what your typical biological age would be and what mine is. through looking at something called biomarkers. And when I was interviewing Mark Hyman, he was telling me that not all biomarkers are the same. Can you explain what biomarkers are and how they can help give you some more insight into understanding what's working well for you

Starting point is 00:22:39 and where you could put some more emphasis in these choices that you're talking about? Yes, actually, I would love to also learn more about your experience and which kind of tests did you take. Because in order to reply to your question, I need to understand which kind of a Vigetic Clock you took because there are a Vigetic clocks that are really just based on DNA

Starting point is 00:23:07 methylation, which is one type of epigenetic modification that is used to build epigenetic clocks because it's the most easy, reliable, and accurate to measure epigenetic modification to measure. So then there are other clocks, the probably the one you took, where they just measure some biomarkers, that can be blood biomarkers, your even blood lipids, seriactive protein,

Starting point is 00:23:41 and then they, based on the collection of this biomarker they output a biological age. So these are not really epigenetic clocks are functional clocks are another way of measuring biological age. Remember I mentioned biological age can be measured in different ways there are three categories. So molecular clocks they include epigenetic clocks, telomer clocks, and now we are looking at proteomic clocks. So molecules. Then you have functional clocks, where you measure biomarkers, for example, blood, epiphanels, but can also be digital clocks that measure your facial aging. And then there are also other tests like VO2 max, other functional measurements. That's why I need to understand which kind of clock you took. And then there are in the category of epigenetic clocks there are different generations of

Starting point is 00:24:46 clocks. The first generation is just a pure epigenetic measurement of different size your genome. The second generation estimates the values, the epigenetic values of functional biomarkers, like for example, blood lipids or other protein, and then does an epigenetic estimate of those markers. And then there are third generation clocks where they look at the estimates of the changes in those biomarkers over time, so that the clock can measure the pace of aging, not only the age, but the pace of aging, because those estimate the changes in time. I know it's complicated.

Starting point is 00:25:49 I can go over again, but it's just to say that your question probably needs to be decomposed and in order for me to really answer the question because things are more complicated than that. Yeah. Well, I have used two primarily. One is inside tracker and the way they did their testing is they did a blood sample, a saliva sample, and then had a whole listing of questions, which were all about your lifestyle.

Starting point is 00:26:21 And then I've also done lifespan more recently, which is the company that was started by after Peter Diamantes and Tony Robbins. And they did not do the saliva test, but they do a comprehensive blood test. And then they have lifestyle questions that they ask you as well. But inside track, or actually gives you a biological age report, lifespan does not. They just tell you actually gives you a biological age report. Life span does not. They just tell you that across all your biomarkers and they have some metabolic biomarkers, they have others that are mineral biomarkers, et cetera.

Starting point is 00:26:54 They just tell you how much you've optimized. Are you 93 optimized or you 56% optimized? And then they try to tell you what you could do to bring those biomarkers up. Yeah, I see. So I can comment specifically on these two because I'm not familiar with them, but I can comment in general with a challenge of these clocks that as you can see there's so many of them. I think there are now over 20 on the market and so as a practitioner, as a doctor or a consumer, I would consider including them as a marker without having the expectation that they will necessarily be precise or really able to guide any personalized protocol. I would take it more as because I like to advance the field and understand more and more data. So I think this is ideal for people who are excited

Starting point is 00:28:06 by the science and want to be part of its advancement. But there are several problems. So as you can see, there are different companies measure the clocks in different ways. First, then I think the major problem is that as I told you, biological age is really a construct. So what this means is that I may be, if I take a digital clock, I may be older than my age because I love the sun. But because I'm

Starting point is 00:28:37 exercising and I'm eating well, my muscle cells and my liver may be younger than my age. We don't have one biological age. We have a biological age for every single cell of our body. And even these epigenetic clocks are, most of them are based on your blood or saliva. And we know that, for example, these changes in blood epigenetics don't track the changes that are seen in brains of Alzheimer's disease patients.

Starting point is 00:29:13 So the brain, the neurons are epigenetically older, not the blood. What I mean is that, first of all, do not expect that for your condition a biological test with epigenetics will be precise or will dress your problem. And I think this is an important aspect. I honestly didn't take of epigenetics, it will be nice to I'm more interested in functional biomarker test, but I observed the field, it's very interesting. And so this is the first expectation. The second, very important is the clinical. So if you take this test, are you then able to give a personalized recommendation or to track the progress of an intervention? track the progress of an intervention. I'm not sure, again, it depends. The challenge is that

Starting point is 00:30:17 these clocks have been developed using databases of people that lived in the 50 years ago, so where also the environment was different. And they are true at the population level. What I mean by that is that if you take 10,000 people and measure their biological age with this clock, clocks will be very precise. But if you take one person could be off very much. It's not so they work at the population level, not so much at the individual level. And one other thing is that not necessarily being younger epigenetically,

Starting point is 00:30:53 is we don't know whether this is necessarily a functional improvement, for example. We know that calorie restriction makes you younger epigenetically. But let's say I measured the epigenetic age of my elderly 82-year-old mom. She's a champion of longevity. But she's frail. She's frail.

Starting point is 00:31:19 So if I measure epigenetic age today, she goes on a calorie-restrictive diets and then after one month, a epigenetic cage is reversed of two years, who write, but then she's more frail and then she falls the day after and she dies. The point is being epigenetically younger doesn't necessarily mean or that is not an indication for a therapy.

Starting point is 00:31:50 And then one last comment of caution, I know that I'm saying a lot of bad things at the end. I will say good things about epigenetic clocks because I think it's an exciting field. But I need to say that because I'm very concerned. There are lots of studies now testing a Pigeotic clocks in the context of Dieter interventions. You mentioned the study by Kara Fitzgerald. Kara is a colleague and I also read her book and wrote a preface and I had the opportunity to read the study and she used a diet that was epigenetically very well designed. What I mean by that? The diet that Caravis Gerald used was based on animal protein as a core and very rich in vegetables and plants. And why this is a very good, a phygetic design? Because we know that the food wheat contains epi nutrients.

Starting point is 00:33:00 This is a word that I introduced and Kara is using it and I'm very happy, which means there are nutrients that really nourish our epigenum. And animal protein is the richest source of one category of epinotrans called metil donor. These metil donors include things like vitamin D of the big group, so folate, 12, 6, and especially we can have only animal protein contains B12. And we know this, and we know, for example, vegan into supplement, but also calling. Calling is a semi-essential nutrient. We only produce 30% of the calling we need.

Starting point is 00:33:49 And we need to get the rest from diet. The richest sources are eggs, shellfish, liver. And 99% of vegans are deficient. And calling is essential for production of acetil, calling in the brain for brain function, and is an epinutrant. So, annual protein is the foundation of other epigenetic, epinotrant, called epibioactives. Think of polyphenols in olive oil, in tea, coffee, but also things like curcumin, so spices,

Starting point is 00:34:42 and modulate the activity of enzymes that write and erase epigenetic modifications of our genes regulating their function. And these epiphenutrients are very often present in things like medicinal plants. And probably they explain where many plants have medicinal properties. Now, going back to the diet and the clocks. So, Karas diet was an epigedically very well-designed diet. And she showed that after eight weeks of this intervention, the participants were rejuvenated by two years. Then there was a criticism to our study saying that after statistically correcting for the test and retest error of the pejetic clocks, that difference would not significant. But then actually that statistical

Starting point is 00:35:42 correction itself really fundamentally changes the clock. So just to say, it's complicated and you will find lots of people saying everything and the contrary of everything about the Pgenetic clocks. I am now, participating in another study, a Stanford, where we tested the Pgenetic clocks in the context of a vegan diet. We didn't publish the results yet, but I will emphasize this in the discussion that whatever the outcome will be, we know that a vegan diet is not an epigenetically

Starting point is 00:36:19 complete diet. So I encourage people not focusing on the results of the latest epigenic clock study. Even if the headline says vegan diet for a juvenile depuginum, go read the methods because the reason, first of all it's a short-term intervention. And then we know that nutrition studies are complicated. If you read the fine print, you will understand more and the complexity of the studies. In this particular study, this is an intervention with people who are overweight and they go on a healthy vegan diet and a healthy omnivore.

Starting point is 00:37:01 But if you look at the diets, there is a difference. The healthier omnivore is eating a lot of grain and starchy vegetables, whereas the vegan diet is eating only the non-starchy vegetables, and they are losing weight. This is just to say, I don't want you to be confused by the new science of epigenetic clocks so that you forget about the fundamentals of epigenetics and epinutrant. I call these epinutrition. So focusing on the biology of epigenetics and the nutrients that build it and don't be distracted by the latest study, because you will see in the next year you will find epigenetic clock studies supporting all kinds of diet, carnivore, vegan, plant-based, omnivore and you will be confused just because this is the nature of nutrition science. Whatever you diet, you support, go on PubMed,

Starting point is 00:38:14 the library of published research on the internet, you will find an article that supports that diet. And at the end, you will be confused. And it will be the same with the PGMT clocks. So don't do that. Just focus on biology and biochemistry and then personalize this to your brain. I feel sorry for people because I am a scientist and I find this confusing and I can only imagine how it is for people. Of course, they don't know what to do. Because every day they hear that this is good for you

Starting point is 00:38:48 and this is bad. And so let's go back to basics and then personalize this protocol for people. Lutje, let me take what you just said and ask you a couple of follow-up. Given your expertise in nutrition and its impacts on epigenetics, when do you think we will all utilize

Starting point is 00:39:09 individualized epigenetics and our daily nutritional intake? I think we can start from now. And I don't mean with the test, necessarily for me, individualizing epigenetics can be done right now and in a very easy way. So we first start from the universal principles, right?

Starting point is 00:39:30 I told you in general, we know that an epigenetic, a complete diet involves animal foods and plant foods. We know how these foods nourish our epigenum. Then we need to personalize to people preferences and conditions. So for example, somebody who is vegan or vegetarian may need to supplement with the B12 or calling. Somebody who has a intestinal problem, IBS, and may be sensitive to fiber-rich foods or too much vegetables, they may also benefit

Starting point is 00:40:12 from supplementation with some of these epibyactives or focus on spices that they can tolerate, because even spices like rosemary, cascades, rosemary, garlic, they deliver a lot of ogenic benefits, curcumin. And of course, there is a personalization to metabolic health, which we always forget. I think insulin resistance is something that is affecting most of us. And we forget to personalize on that our diet. So what I mean by that is not very often there is a lot of bad talking about carbohydrates and I don't think all carbohydrates are bad. Carbodies are are everywhere, of course.

Starting point is 00:41:06 I wanted to focus on whole foods, whole food carbohydrates. But then in the context of carbohydrates, there are more iglesemic index carbohydrates, like fruit and then low glycemic index carbohydrates, like things that grow above ground. Like for example, green-dishy vegetables, processed sprouts, broccoli, they're very low in glycemic index and carbohydrates. Five grams every 100 grams. You can eat huge portions of those foods, get a lot of nutrients, very few calories and carbohydrates.

Starting point is 00:41:49 That could be a great choice for people with insulin resistance. So an epinotrition plan that is personalized could, for example, say, okay, there are some foods that are reaching epinotrans but because you have high insulin resistance focus on broccoli, which are really an epigenetic superstar. And these are only some things to consider.

Starting point is 00:42:17 There is also the ultimate epinotrition personalized protocol, which is a ketogenic diet, even fasting, because when we are on a ketogenic diet or fast, and sometimes we need to do it for therapeutic reasons, either diabetes or their even brain disorders, we produce We produce ketone bodies. And one of these is beta-adroxybutyrate. Well, we know that these is an eti-metabolite. So a metabolite with epigenetic function that regulates genes that are responsible

Starting point is 00:42:58 to turn off inflammation in the body and regulate pathways. So this is an example actually of an epineutrition intervention in which we, by manipulating the macronutrient composition of our diet, we stimulate the production in our body of epigenetic molecules that benefit our health. So the concept is this. These are all examples of epigenetic protocols for different peoples,

Starting point is 00:43:30 but the basics are universal. So we start from the basics, and we personalize based on tests that we have already now. My concern about this cutting edge tests is that they're very interesting, but they are less precise at the individual level, and they should never be considered alone, and not in the context of other functional biomarkers. Well, I just got a constant glucose monitoring system from levels that I can't wait to try

Starting point is 00:44:06 when I get back from an upcoming trip and start going down that path of seeing what that insulin and glucose mix on a daily level for me. And yeah, I'm excited about that. I know you've done a lot of studying of, and I'll mention this because you are from a Mediterranean-based country,

Starting point is 00:44:26 keto diet versus the Mediterranean diet. Can you share any insights from that? Oh, yes. Okay. I will start by saying that when you read the headlines, always ask yourself, what is the keto diet or the Mediterranean diet that was tested in the study? Because no, it's interesting, I made this comment when we were designing the study.

Starting point is 00:44:53 The mediterranean diet that we tested was a healthy mediterranean diet. You know what? No refined grains. So I was born in Naples. I was eating pasta bread every day. And then the study tells me that the Mediterranean diet is a diet with no refined grains. So the point is if you read the headlines, they say, I made a very low carbide, very healthy, version of a terinium diet. And compared that to a ketogenic diet, again, was a very well-designed ketogenic diet with less than 30 grams of carbide per day.

Starting point is 00:46:02 But it was a diet where, for example, it was more heavy on meat and dairy than fish and olive oil. This is just to say that there are very different ways of doing the keto-jane diet. There is not many people think that is always meat and butter, but it's not necessarily like that. I am on a low carb and maybe even keto, I don't know because I don't count my, but I am more fission olive oil and that's, you can do a keto-nate Iranian. By the way, the study was designed to compare these diets for pre-diabetic and type 2 diabetic patients and compare their outcomes on glycated hemoglobin,

Starting point is 00:46:46 which is a standard marker for diagnosis diabetes, but also CGM. So continuous glucose monitoring, what you are now trying. And so you will be excited to know that both diets were really improved, like, the Democratic Lovian, there was not a significant difference between the diet.

Starting point is 00:47:12 But taking to account that also the Mediterranean, that was very low in carburetid. Again, it was not the Mediterranean that you think. But we also found that the CGM data were significantly better for the keto group. So, again, and this is confirming what we have seen also in other trial from, you may be familiar with the Verta Health Study. And it's now a multi-year study.

Starting point is 00:47:44 I think now they're now in the fifth year, but I'm familiar with the results published after two years. This was an intervention using a kidney jelly diet for diabetic patients, showing that all the markers were improved and the most importantly, most people were taken off medications. So basically, it's the diet going on a keto diet can allow diabetic patient to go off medication. And this is really a food as medicine approach. It's about giving people options. I don't want to say everybody should be on a ketogenic diet, but I think the ketogenic diet is probably the prescription strength approach for diabetic patients. And I think

Starting point is 00:48:42 that some people may not need or want to go to a prescription strength. But if the alternative is taking a medication, then they at least have the options. And I think that's where education is important. I said, look, going on a keto diet as a diabetic could allow you to get rid of medications. We have not seen this with studies we made a rena diet or more milder, higher carbohydrate intake. And I think it makes sense from again, a biochemistry perspective because a ketogenic diet really switches, allows our body to switch

Starting point is 00:49:21 from using glucose to fat as a fuel and stabilizes glucose. Well, I did want to ask you about one other thing. I had the opportunity to interview Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, who is a new book coming out. And she's known for being an expert on proteins. And you've talked a lot about the needs for good intake of proteins to support epigenetics. needs for good intake of proteins to support epigenetics. But another area she is also passionate about is muscle mass and the importance of doing strength training for longevity. Have you done any research in that area? I didn't do any research, but as you can see, I am strong and I practice strength training regularly and I've learned a lot by engaging in strength training. Actually, I started my strength training journey together with my doctorate.

Starting point is 00:50:19 So I, and that's where I experimented with the ketogenic diet at the beginning just as a part of a performance program because the ketogenic diet actually was popular in the 80s among bodybuilders who wanted to define to go at the define and muscles after a bulking face. So I tried that there were times in my life where I reached 10% fat and I was strong and I still trained, but now I don't cycle. I'm just on the same diet because I think I prefer to focus on health rather than performance. But just to go back to your question. So I don't have any

Starting point is 00:51:00 research, but I have personal experience and I read a lot about the topic. Our muscles are really an organ that produces cytokines, hormones, molecules, and it's not only a structural component. It really transforms the way we metabolize and use food. And that's why personalization is so important. Even carbohydrates have a completely different effect on somebody who has a lot of muscles because the muscle is really sugar-sync. It really claims sugar from your blood, especially after training. So I usually have my higher carbohydrate vegetables,

Starting point is 00:51:54 like pumpkin, and sometimes if I want to bulk up even sweet potatoes, after training, whereas I go with lower choices before training, because after training, we eat insulin goes up and tells yourselves, take glucose from the blood. But after training, we don't need it. It's our muscles that said, give it to me, give it to me. I need it because I burn my glycogen stores. This is just magic if you think about it. So if you eat that glucose after training it goes to your muscles.

Starting point is 00:52:51 Now, many bodybuilders for these reasons, reason used to eat dextrose tablets just after training. I wouldn't do that just because for me, I think it's so much better than to focus on nutrition. I have some healthy carbohydrates, but the point is, yes, muscle is important. Also, for longevity reasons, I hired a trainer for my mom, 82 years old, and I tell you this. Not only she's stronger, she can work alone, but she has so much more energy and I notice that she just thinks more clearly and better and she has had a transformation after starting

Starting point is 00:53:38 with training. And we know that there is even this muscle brain connection and there's not only about movement. It's also about thinking and feeling. And so I believe that exercise, although I'm an advocate of diet, exercise is very important. And protein is very important, not only from an epigenetic standpoint, but also for muscle growth. I think is a very much neglected nutrient. There is a lot of controversy on this topic, but I think

Starting point is 00:54:15 a high protein diet, especially a protein diet that contains some protein and each meal, some protein and each meal is very important. It's not only about how much protein per day per kilo. Yes, these are quantities just to give us a guideline, but how much protein per meal? Because we don't have any place to store protein. We have a place to store fat, adipose tissue and glucose, glycogen, not protein. So that's why we should also always be eating protein. Some protein probably 30 to 40 grams every meal. Well, thank you for that, Lucia. And I understand you've got an upcoming course that some of the listeners may be interested in hearing about. Ah, yes, so thank you for mentioning that. Yes, I've been teaching epigenetics for many years as Stanford. I'm proud to have an introduce for the first time epigenetics in the Stanford Genomics Certificate. This is a professional program. So I decided to update those teachings and

Starting point is 00:55:27 distill them in five modules for all the nutrition science enthusiasts out there and make it accessible. So I will, you can find the course at draronica.com and use a coupon code passion 50 for a 50% discount. Well, thank you, Lucia, for sharing that and thank you so much for joining us today. It was such an interesting deep dive, especially into the nutrition behind epigenetics. Thank you very much, John, for having me. I hope your audience enjoyed our conversation and being inspired and useful and exercise as medicine.

Starting point is 00:56:12 Hi, thoroughly enjoyed the interview with Dr. Lucia Rana Khan. I wanted to thank Lucia and Dr. Cara Fitzgerald for having her appear on today's show. Links to all things Lucia will be in the show notes. Please use our website links if you purchase any of the books from the guests. At We Feature here on the show, all proceeds go to supporting the show. You can catch our videos on YouTube at both my main channel at John Armyles, as well as our Clips channel at PassionStruckClips. Advertiser deals and discount codes are in one convenient place at PassionStruck.com slash deals.

Starting point is 00:56:40 You can sign up for my personal development newsletter at PassionStruck.com. You can also sign up for my work development newsletter at passionstruck.com. You can also sign up for my work-related newsletter work intentionally on LinkedIn. You can catch me on all the social channels at JohnRMiles, or you can also pre-purchase my brand new book PassionStruck on the website or wherever you purchase books. You're about to hear a preview of the PassionStruck podcast interview that I did with Dr. Richard Ryan, a clinical psychologist and co-founder and co-developer of the self-determination theory, an internationally recognized leading theory on motivation. Dr. Ryan lectures frequently in the US and abroad and was one of the most cited researchers in the world, about psychological and behavioral functioning. We are going to explore

Starting point is 00:57:20 in-depth the topic of self-determination theory. In that episode, we do a deep dive on the connections of many things that I talk about on PassionStruck and self-determination theory, one of my best interviews yet. Recent research in Neuro Psychology has really been showing that we do have a set of internally rewarding experiences that are behind a lot of our activities. When people are doing something benevolent, when they're doing kind things for other people, they're also feeling straddle activation. They're showing activation in the reward centers of their brain because something satisfying has occurred for them. I think in this way it's very much

Starting point is 00:57:55 supported the general tenets of self-determination theory. Remember that we rise by lifting others so share the show with those that you love and care about. If you find someone who's interested in understanding epigenetics and definitely share the show with those that you love and care about. If you find someone who's interested in understanding epigenetics and definitely share the show with those that you love and care about, in the meantime do your best to apply what you hear on the show so that you can live what you listen. Now go out there and become cashier strong. you

Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Dr. Lucia Aronica on the Impact of Personalized Nutrition on Epigenetics EP 384

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