Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Dr. Mike Rucker on How to Change Your Life With the Fun Habit EP 267

Episode Date: March 16, 2023

Organizational psychologist Dr. Mike Rucker joins me on Passion Struck to impart his top tips for integrating fun activities into our daily routines. Drawing on scientific evidence from his book, "The Fun Habit: How the Pursuit of Joy and Wonder Can Change Your Life," we'll explore the advantages of having fun and the kinds of enjoyable habits we can cultivate. Join us now as we explore why fun isn't solely reserved for children; it's a crucial element of adult life as well. In This Episode, Dr. Mike Rucker And I Discuss His Book "The Fun Habit." In our interview, Mike and I discuss the essence of fun and how it differs from happiness. As busy adults, why is it essential to prioritize fun? Discovering time for enjoyment and the significance of reflecting on fun experiences. Should we prioritize friendship or parenting when it comes to having fun? Creating and sustaining enjoyable practices utilizing the Rucker-PLAY model and learning how to infuse more fun into our relationships with friends. Full show notes and resources can be found here: https://passionstruck.com/dr-mike-rucker-change-your-life-the-fun-habit/  Brought to you by Green Chef. Use code passionstruck60 to get $60 off, plus free shipping!” Brought to you by Indeed. Head to https://www.indeed.com/passionstruck, where you can receive a $75 credit to attract, interview, and hire in one place. --► For information about advertisers and promo codes, go to: https://passionstruck.com/deals/  Like this show? Please leave us a review here -- even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter or Instagram handle so we can thank you personally! --► Prefer to watch this interview: https://youtu.be/8j9-MlnNO5M  --► Subscribe to Our YouTube Channel Here: https://www.youtube.com/c/JohnRMiles Want to find your purpose in life? I provide my six simple steps to achieving it - passionstruck.com/5-simple-steps-to-find-your-passion-in-life/ Want to hear my best interviews from 2022? Check out episode 233 on intentional greatness and episode 234 on intentional behavior change. ===== FOLLOW ON THE SOCIALS ===== * Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/passion_struck_podcast * Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/johnrmiles.c0m  Learn more about John: https://johnrmiles.com/ 

Coming up next on the Passion Struck Podcast, we still need to have a certain level on Maslow's triangle to be able to thrive, right? So I'm not suggesting quitting your job and living as no matter anything like that. What I am suggesting is that you should look at time in a similar fashion as you do money because ultimately anyone who's smart can make more money

but you can never make more time. Welcome to Passion Struck. Hi, I'm your host, John Armiles, and on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips, and guidance of the world's most inspiring people, and turn their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you. Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself. If you're new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays. We have long form interviews the rest of the week with guest ranging from astronauts

to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries and athletes. Now, let's go out there and become PassionStruck. Hello everyone and welcome back to Episode 267 of PassionStruck, recently ranked by Interview Valet is the third best podcast for mindset. And thank you to each and every one of you who come back weekly, listen and learn, and live better, be better, and impact the world. And if you're new to the show, thank you so much for being here. Or you simply want to introduce this to a friend or family member. We know have episode starter packs, which are collections of our fans favorite episodes, and we organize them in

a convenient topics to give any new listener a great way to get acclimated to everything we do here on the show. Either go to Spotify or passionstruck.com slash starter packs to get started. In case you missed it, earlier in the week, I interviewed Charlotte Auburn Burgess, who is a professor at the Stanford B-S School and Director of Community for them as well, and we discuss her new book You Need a Manifesto. Please go check it out in case you haven't. I also want to thank you so much for your continued support of the show. Your ratings and reviews go such a long way and help bring more people into the passion-struck community, where we can bring them weekly doses of hope, meaning, inaction and inspiration. And I know our guests love to hear comments from our

listeners. Let's talk about today's episode. Happiness can be elusive, but fun is something that we can easily incorporate into our lives at any time and in any place. Research has shown that fun is beneficial for our physical and psychological well-being, yet it is often lacking in modern times. Fordorn to our guest today, psychologist Mike Rucker, many adults are not having enough fun, and it has been a while since they've truly had a good time. In his book The Fun Habit, the pursuit of joy and wonder can change your life. Rucker argues that fun is just as important for human welfare as relationships and exercise.

Modern hindrances like social media addiction, overwork and negative societal views on leisure can prevent us from experiencing fun, which is essential for our well-being and a fundamental way that we interact with the world. As we age, we may forget to make time per play, and this can lead to burnout. Rutgers suggests that instead of constantly seeking happiness, we should try to engage in fun activities to improve our well-being and fine joy in our present moments. Dr. Rutgers' ideas about fun and health have been featured in Psychology Today, Forbes, Fox, Thrive Global, and more. Name one of the top 10 digital change makers by the health, information, and management system society. He currently serves as a senior leader at

Active Wellness. Thank you for choosing PassionStruck and choosing me to be your hosting guide on your journey to creating an intentional life. Now, let that journey begin. I am so excited today to welcome Dr. Mike Rucker to the Passion Strike Podcast. Welcome Mike. Thanks so much for having me, John. I'm looking forward to this. And you just recently released this great book that I have here, The Fun Habit, which we're going to be covering in detail, but I just wanted to start off by congratulating

you on that book launch and how awesome it's been received right now by all the people who've been reading it. Yeah, thank you. It's been an exciting time. I'm having a lot of fun just connecting with folks and yeah, in the way that the kind of subtle tactics in there are proving beneficial. That stuff's always rewarding, I think, right now, especially going into 2023 because it's been so tough since the beginning of the 2020s, right?

It seems like the message is welcomed and that's always nice, a little bit of serendipity there. Yes, for sure. Well, you start off the book by saying that you spent most of your life searching for happiness. How have your own experiences led you down the path of starting to build your own fun habit? Yeah, so I'm a charter member of the International Psychology Association and why that's important. For folks that don't know what positive psychology is,

Cheek Set Me High created flow and that kind of started the movement, but around the beginning of the millennium, Marty Segliman came out with a book called Authentic Happiness and a lot of practitioners were excited about using tools of psychology not necessarily to treat deficits but to help enrich people's lives and help them flourish, right? And so the reason I bring that up is I got excited about that science when everyone else did. And so from that time on, I was really studying the tools of the trade and really trying to make myself

as happy as possible. And so what I talk about in the book is really trying to optimize my life quite a bit for that. It was really outcome focused. I was also part of the quantified self movement, which is essentially just life logging, right? So I was getting so geeky about it that if I had a good day, I'd write down why it was and look for correlations

and things of that nature and really try and over optimize my life. And in 2016, I had a couple unfortunate events. My younger brother suddenly passed away from a pulmonary amuletism. And I had been a lifelong endurance athlete, dusiest, and found out that I had advanced osteoarthritis. And I needed a hip replacement at a young age. And I wasn't gonna be able to run again.

And so I really got walloped. And up to that point, you might have been optimizing for happiness. So I was like, okay, bad things happen, but I'm this, my love positivity, I'll figure out a way to will myself out of it. And unfortunately, what happened was, as I was trying to do that, I realized I was making myself more unhappy. And the tools of the trade are certainly helpful in a lot of situations, but I think what we've learned now just jump ahead,

because serendipitously a lot of research came out at that time as I was going through this process or created this overt concern about achieving happiness in the West that's become quite problematic. And why that is is that when we ruminate on where we want to be and these times of despair, it can create a lot of dissonance which ultimately can lead to really poor mental hygiene and in some cases even contribute to mental illness and that was the path that I was on. So if these tools in some periods of your life become problematic, what can you do? I'm essentially are we being told that we just need to sit in this pit of despair? And so I needed to figure out, okay, it's an appropriate response to not be happy through tragic loss, right? But it doesn't mean that your life needs to be devoid of joy and delight.

And so if that's the case, what can you do? And that's how the fun habits started. Well, I'm very sorry about your brother. My father over the holidays had a pulmonary embolism and had to be life flighted to a hospital and they ended up catching it just in the neck of time. Thank goodness. I'm glad to hear that. Yeah, and they also discovered that he had it also in his knee.

So the feeling is the clot probably started there and moved up, but it can happen. So suddenly, I have a friend of mine. I went to college with whose brother flew for Delta Airlines and flew the long halls overseas and at some point in his 40s the same thing happened to him. Yeah, my brother was a big guy and I think that's he had to fly a lot for work. It's certainly yeah, it's unfortunate. I think obviously there's various reasons for various folks, but we believe that's likely the cause that he had to fly a lot and it probably wasn't his legs as well. Yes, and he was a comedian, if I can. No, we just let we loved at comedy. So you're referring to the fact that I talk a lot about comedy in the book and that was really an ode to the fact that's something that we really enjoyed together.

We went to second city and we grew up in Davis, so we go to local comedy clubs in Sacramento, but we really had a fondness for it. And I think comedy is a great example of folks that do lighten the mode, but what do they say? Like comedy equals tragedy plus time, right? And so I think it's a nice way to highlight a lot of things in the book with regards to the fact that we can laugh and enjoy life and bring delight even when we're going through painful periods. Well speaking of second city my both my mom and my aunt grew up outside of Chicago and.

My aunt went from elementary school through middle school with Bill Murray. And she tells me the story that one time she was getting off work, she's an attorney, and it was pretty late at night, and she's walking up this alley, and all of a sudden, someone grabs her from behind, you can imagine what's going through her mind, starts twirling her around, and it was Bill Murray. And she said, he even to this day still comes back for elementary school and middle school reunions. I don't know who in the world does that. I don't even think my elementary school has one, but I digress. No, but I think he's a good example. I know in recent months, unfortunately, he has a little bit of controversy surrounding him, but the idea

that he's invited these things, right? In the beginning of the book, I talk about Will Novak, who's more of a pedestrian, doesn't have the celebrity status bill does, but what I think he highlights is the fact that if you invite this in, right? Exactly what you said. Even if you're an introvert, if you're open to new experiences, then provide fertile ground for more spontaneity for connection, which is an important component of fun. The story is abound about how his willingness to just really connect with people,

and not just be the center of attention, but I think I write in the book where he stayed at a college party to do the dishes just so he could talk with folks. He's not just all about boisterous sort of behavior. And so, yeah, I still think it stands. He's a great example of fun. Well, he is. I just happened to run into someone recently. He now lives in Charleston, and there was a Christmas party that they went to a year ago, and it's this huge party that was put on. And outside, there was this gentleman in a skull costume who was just sitting outside

on the porch and the owner of the house comes over to him and goes, I don't think you're invited to this party. Can I ask why you're here? And he takes off the mask and it was Bill Murray. And I think he's always popping in trying to have fun. And other people I've talked to in Charleston says he just randomly shows up throughout town. So.

I brought him up and then I think I took a detour, but obviously I'm not prescribing wedding crashing to anything of that nature. We're forcing your fun on others. But again, I think there are these opportunities about where if life gives you an invitation, you accept it, right? There's a study that I cite in a book about folks that are primed to just talk to strangers on their commute, because

we all think like, oh, I'm just going to be bothering that person, right? But in this particular study, 90% of the people on both sides really welcomed that connection. Like at the end of the day, there's certainly going to be people that put on their noise, canceling headphones and are like on their computer might maybe working on a presentation. You don't want to bother those folks, but so many times the funnest person could be standing right next to us and we don't notice. And so having that prime that like we all do want to talk to each other and we do want to invite people in as long as there's this level of psychological safety. But we've all been so guarded, right, especially coming out of the pandemic because we fear for personal safety and things of that nature. There needs to be a corrective that for the most part, people are really friendly

and that's where fun thrives. Yeah, well, I will have to say even in my own experience, talking to people on planes or random strangers has turned out to yield some of the best conversations I've ever had. Yeah, because just think about it. That's where outside ideas come from, right? And that type of novelty can be sometimes it's not great. There's a little bit of risk involved in that, but oftentimes introduction to new ideas or just connecting with things that aren't necessarily in your sphere of influence can be some of the most rich memories you have, like oh my goodness. And then also just the drudgery of being on a long client flight, right? You mitigate that for both people. And oftentimes you need to be the one to make that invitation. So not to sit with this topic

too long, but I think it's a great example of just one of the many things that we've created these social norms that blockable experiences out. And if we just only realize the folly and what these habitual behaviors that we've been gauged in, and we can change that, and we can invite these subtle things that are more pleasurable. And then it just makes you like people more, right? You realize that we are a lot more like than we are different. Well, that was a great lead in to where I wanted

to take the conversation anyhow. And often on the show, I talk about how we or all born into circumstances that we can't control. Our parents are siblings, the zip code, we're born into, which sided the poverty line. We sit, but how have we been conditioned by society to believe that trying to have fun is childish? So I think there are a lot of different headwinds, right? And so for different people, it's gonna be different things.

So, I can give a bold to list and some might apply to some people and some, that's not the way I was raised. A lot of it can be the pure to work ethic, especially here in the West. We sort of champion busyness and we champion productivity. I mean, that doesn't necessarily mean that you can't be someone who likes to achieve, but we've gone overboard, right? There are a trending topic on LinkedIn in the last couple

weeks is that one out of four employees are so burnt out, they just don't know how to enjoy life, right? And on the leisure side, which is the space where a lot of fun lives, right, that transition ritual from work life to personal life, We're second to last with regards to developed nations with the amount of PTO we give, right? I think I forget what the last place country is, but I mean second to last out of all developed countries. And so why is that important? We know that similar to sleep deficits in the 90s and how assinine that is because if we're not sleeping we're not able to be productive people. That same illumination is now happening with leisure.

We know people that don't take a little bit of time off the table for themselves. Ultimately aren't able to be the best versions of themselves the next day. A lot of the science that supports this is called the hedonic flexibility principle. And so what we know is that if your life is deployed at fun and joy all the time, ultimately you're going to burn out and you're just not going to be able to be productive. And so to answer your question, what has happened is we've championed this ideal that we need to see the world through this lens of duty that we just have come to undervaluate. There seems to also be an evolutionary kind of component to it that doesn't apply to modern life, but certainly did back when bears and tigers were attacking us. We have a propensity to undervalue the idea of

reminiscing on pleasurable experiences and overvalue fear and things that we potentially need to learn for own safety. But what that leads to is things like doom scrolling, right? Where we're essentially always open to negative information. And we tend to devalue or spend time thinking about pleasurable thoughts or engaging in pleasurable activities. There's also this sort of thing that's happening where we're living longer and we're also having kids later, right? So there's this concept called the U-shaped curve of happiness and we just have a lot more duty, more responsibilities than we've ever had. So many of us living between 30 and 60 are not only taking care of children,

but we're also taking care of our aging parents who once could help with the children. But now, like for instance, I'm in Sacramento right now, seeing my parents in Davis, California, they're in their 80s. I mean, they can't help me with my six-year-old and my 10-year-old, right? And so these are new phenomena. And so there's a whole host of different reasons why our lives are so overprescribed. But the thing is that once we get into that state, we don't even really have the resilience to integrate

fun back into our lives. So it requires just to course-correct in the sense that realizing that you do have more agency and autonomy over your time than you thought, and that when you are experiencing joy in your life, that allows you to have a little bit more vigor and vitality to things that you do, which then creates this upward spiral instead of a downward spiral that most of us are living in. Sorry, that was a long way to answer. And I'm happy to break some of those out. But again, it's a complex problem similar to like, when, hey, why are we in an obesity epidemic, right?

You can't just point to like plate size or urban development. There's a lot of different headwinds, but especially here in the US, the data is clear that it's become so problematic that burnout is an epidemic here in the U.S. the data is clear that it's become so problematic that burnout is an epidemic here in the U.S. Yeah, what brings me back to 20 something years ago when I was young and in the military in station

in road to Spain, and I had a really good friend who was a Spanish officer, he flew her ears, and when we were over there, we would get to the office 5.36 o'clock in the morning. I wouldn't leave till 6.37 o'clock at night. And they were the opposite. They would go in about 9 o'clock in the morning, take their CSTA, and then they would end

at about the same time we did. And I remember one time we were out on a weekend and he just looks at me shaking his head and he goes, you Americans work so much. He goes, don't you know, life is about working to live, not living to work. And I really wish I would have listened to my friend's words much more

because some learned of many people I was trying to climb the ladder and put myself in a situation where I had reached what I had always dreamed of having, which was a Fortune 50 CIO job, but I was working 100 hour weeks. I was burning both ends of the candle. I was traveling two weeks out of the month. And ultimately, I found myself in this death spiral of just feeling so numb that I had lost all joy in my life. My memory was becoming not what it was.

I wasn't performing cognitively as well as I should. I wasn't there in present like I needed to be what I tell the listeners of the show is this is something that doesn't happen overnight. It's like depression. It starts out is this low grade thing and over time. incorporate fun activities or breaks or free time into your life, it just builds up to the point that it goes from this real mild thing to severe over time. And I think that's exactly what happens to a lot of people, especially as you pointed out in the book, after the Industrial Revolution and Information Age. And I love how you put it. You say that it has led us to becoming the machines that now output the goods that create profits for others. And I think it's such a valuable point. Yeah. So you bring up a couple good points. You probably highlighted it better than I did. One is that it's insidious, right? So that's why it's a hard sell. I think, again, there's some Sarah Indipity we talked about at the beginning of the show that people are more open to it because they are realizing, again, I think leisure is now going to get

the attention that sleep got in the 90s that we understand. I mean, you're certainly seeing it in Fortune 500 companies where they're literally having to incentivize employees to take PTO. And they're not doing that because it's out of a sense of the Netherlands. They know that folks that don't enjoy themselves a little bit are eventually going to burn out. They're either going to start to hate the company, right, or they're going to be less productive. But as you mentioned, it's insidious because if I ask you in real time, you don't, it happens so slowly, you don't understand that you are burning out. Or the benefit of fun is so subtle, you're like, okay, really, I just need to take a vacation. Now And that's not exactly it, but it's certainly a big piece of it, right?

Another thing that I don't completely go down the rabbit hole in the book, but I think it's, again, speaks to these headwinds. As you're seeing a parody gap between the middle class and the upper class, when we were doing things for an honest wage, in that exchange of value, here's my time, and you're going to be fair with the money that you give me. So granted, maybe you're the boss and you get a little bit more, but now we're being overoptimized to how can I get the most value, the most output out of you and extrapolate the rest for myself. It's clear that's happening. I think that's requiring a course correction. And as much as they get criticized, I think Gen Z's and millennials deserve a little bit of credit for the great

resignation because they're like, look, I'm not going to just give my life away. The all I'm doing is helping you take all the value of my time. Cassie Holmes and other researchers have really shown how folks that have a mindset shift from money affluence to time affluence, we still need to have a certain level on Maslow's triangle to be able to thrive. So I'm not suggesting quitting your job and living as a nomad or anything like that. What I am suggesting is that you should look at time as in a similar fashion as you do money because ultimately anyone who's smart can make more money, but you can never make more time.

And that's just the reality, right? Again, it comes from a place that's a privilege. There are gonna be some folks where money is a concern. And so likely this advice doesn't fall on them, but if you're at a certain level in your career where you could ultimately make more money if you want, then it might be time to start looking at how can you create the space where you can actually use your time more effectively

as well. Does that make sense? Oh, it makes sense. And it goes directly with where I wanted to take the next question. I released an episode with Dr. Waldinger. If you're not familiar with him, he's a psychoanalyst and psychiatrist at Harvard and leads

the Harvard Study of Adult Development. But in 2007, he did a huge study on millennials and asked them what is most important in their lives. And it came back with an 80% answer to be rich. And out of that 80%, 50%, then also said the secondary goal they wanted to have was to be famous. And then he interviewed the same group of people a decade later and the findings were pretty much the same. And it seems like the way you're not and you're familiar

with this. So his book is actually titled The Good Life. And in your own book, you write that many of us feel today helpless as we're trying to carry out this journey towards the good life that Dr. Waldinger talks about. Why do you feel like so many people feel like they're up against impossible headwinds to achieving the good life? Yeah, I think it's because it's being delivered from external factors, right? So many of us, especially here in the West, again, there's multiple causes, but whether it's social media, whether it's aggressive marketing, whether it's just being so burnt out, again, alluding back to that APA study that was highlighted and linked in, we have forgotten what lights us up, right? I mean, so there's a few aspects of happiness that

become problematic, right? We're susceptible to adaptability, right? So if we're not mindful of what it is that we like, we're just chasing the next thing, then ultimately it will be novel for a little bit and then it won't be, right? So those things tend to be fleeting. The other, and you brought it up earlier, is that a lot of times, if we're not mindful about what it is that really brings this joy,

it ends up that it's comparing against the Joneses, right? And so once we adapt to maybe a windfall or job promotion or things like that, we acclimate to what the sort of social norms are of that, so just that strata, and then we strive for more. And so what I talk about in the book is that the folks that are able to be deliberate

about these are the things that I really like, connection with my friends, my family, the hobbies that I have, relationship with nature, for some it's going to be spirituality. These live in abundance and they don't necessarily require an act of evaluation, right? Like, am I having fun? I mean, you're just in those moments, you're in those connections, and you know, they're wells that you can drink from all the time. They don't run out. And so I think that's what's become problematic is that we see these curated lives that folks

on social media and we think that's the norm, but it really isn't. I think for some it might be more difficult, but for most rational thinkers, like wait a second, oh my goodness, yeah, this is like the top 1% of this particular person's life. I don't need to compare myself to them. And oh yeah, I haven't thought about my own needs

and what I'm really passionate about. So why don't I reconnect with that? And I don't necessarily need to have it prescribed and it doesn't have to be one thing. And let me start to reestablish my relationship with those activities, the people and the environments that really do light me up because those are always there.

Yeah, and I'm gonna bring up an influencer that you brought up in the book and that is Gary Vee and it's interesting because he became the poster child for hustle culture. But last year I had the opportunity to interview two of his direct reports. One of them still works for him, Claude Silver, and the other one Adam Posner worked for him a long time ago, and it's funny because they said that the Gary that you see who's publicly out there in the Gary who they work with on a day-to-day basis are two completely different people.

In fact, he created a job that Claude is now in called the Chief Heart officer because he saw how many of his own employees were disengaged and he wanted to find out a way that they can concentrate on what they call emotional optimism and to root out toxic positivity from the workforce. What, knowing him the way you do it. I know you've met him personally. What are your thoughts about that? Yeah, so we connected personally.

I met to his credit. He's so gracious with this time, right? So we talked on the phone. I'd still loved to meet him in person someday. But yeah, I met. It's so funny you bring it up because one, obviously in the footnote, I'd say that he is certainly rolled it back, right?

So to his credit, now he talks about renewal. And again, I think it's interesting sort of comparison to sleep, but on my own website, and I elected not to delete it, I feel like, again, I don't want to prescribe being critical of a curated life and then curate my own. But I remember seeing a Ted Talker and inspirational talk when I was an inspiring entrepreneur

where he essentially said, stop watching loss. Put your kids to bed at 11 and grind it out till three in the morning. And we now know how assamine that is, right? I mean, a lot of times to explain this, I bring up just a simple math equation, right? We know that someone who's burnt out is gonna produce just an average level of output, right?

So let's say you're someone that grants that out 60 hours a week, and so you're able to produce 1X. What we know is that people that live, and again, this goes back to Matt Killingsworth's work about mind wandering, and then also the hedonic flexibility principal, Dr. Taka, Oxford, is that when we are able to recharge our batteries, we show up with so much more energy. And again, the ability to think in a more innovative way, right?

Because a lot of times when we're burnt out, we really can only think through our heuristics very in a very linear fashion, right? It becomes more difficult to coalesce outside ideas and make innovative solutions. And so, if you're able to take time off the table and come to work as the best version of yourself, then you're able to produce two X, right? So the person that's grinding it out and thinks that they're in this life of being a work of holic, 60 times one, that's 60 units of output, right? But the person that's living a fun life and is able to show up to work with their batteries

recharged, is working 40 hours a week, but able to produce two X and that's 80, right? So here you are producing 20 more units of output and having a lot more fun doing it, right? I'm creating this upward spiral. And so back to your question, I hate smart enough to know that. The cloud is an amazing person as well. And I think we just know that the folks that are enjoying themselves, even if that enjoyment comes from work. And again, I talk about that in chapter 11, right? Even people that are trying to focus their energy on changing the world and doing really big things. If they're not enjoying themselves a little bit, ultimately, they're not going to be able to do the things that

they wanted to do in the first place. They're not showing up as the best versions of themselves. And then to your point, you brought up your own anecdote. You look back at it and go, why did I do this in the first place? I don't remember what was enjoyable about this. Yeah, no, and I was chasing the exact things that Dr. Waldinger found in the millennials when, say, fame is much as recognition and promotions

and the money aspect of it and what that could buy you and all that. What that study is found is that none of that brings you happiness at all. Yeah, I think it's one of those, you often get asked these introspective questions like if you could go back and tell your 20 year old self, what would you say? And I think anyone that's listening, like if you do have those outcome-based goals as your ideal, like really be critical why.

There's a simple coaching exercise called the five wise, like peel back. Is this something that really you want to optimize your life for? Because another unfortunate consequence is if you do, you get to the point of burnout that you describe, the psychological concept is called social contagion. You start to spread that to the folks that you care about, whether that's your employees because you're in a leadership position

or your family and ultimately burn them out too because you're not there to a person that they really want to be around. So these things have ripple effects throughout your life that become quite insidious. And again, to your point, they happen so slowly that it's often hard to recognize that they are happening. But some of the best achievers are the ones that are having fun, right? In the book, I talk about Malcolm Gladwell made this concept of 10,000 hours really popular and deliberate practice is an amazing thing I think but it's a great ideal for people that are really trying to focus their lives towards mastering something.

But an important piece of the research that wasn't really talked about in Malcolm's book is the fact that when deliberate practice was over these folks have a transition ritual and walk away from it so that they can have space between what they're trying to master and these opportunities for renewal so that we can go back to things that we really want to work hard at. And so that is something, again, that deserves a corrective, right? Like for anyone listening that's like, okay, well, Well, fun to me is whimsical. That's fine. But just remember that if you're not engaging in some sort of leisure, that thing that you really want to do

is going to become a lot more difficult over time. And for some, ultimately, it's not going to happen at all. Well, I think this is a great way to get into some of your suggestions for how you build fun into people's lives. And in the book, you say that fun has been villainized, marginalized, and ignored, and it needs to do over. And you believe that too many people are chasing happiness.

And if you try to do that, it can be a trap. So you go through an outline, a simple theory of fun. And maybe just a ground the audience, what are the four characteristics that you found of fun? Yeah, so I'm at back that up a little bit. I think for anyone that's wondering what the simple definition is, I break it down using emotional science

and essentially it's just anything you enjoy doing, right? And so in the book, I refer to it as valence because we look at emotions through a four quadrant model. And what really is the thing that categorizes fun for different people is a rousal, right? So some of us are going to really want to engage in things that are like true extroverted activities, right? Like rock concerts and things like that. For my wife, it's something as simple as being pull side and reading an amazing book, right? But the thing that unites us all is this idea of valence, whether we find the activities enjoyable or we don't. And so that's really the way I define fun for anyone

listening and wanting like a simple definition. And then what I break down in the book is that you can use something as simple as a time audit or you can look back at your outlook calendar and kind of find these opportunities of like, okay, where have I situated my activities in my week and where can I find these opportunities to create space so that fun can be filled back into that? Yes, and did you find in your research and examining that of people like Cassie Holmes and others that there's an optimal amount of time that we should be spending daily on fun? Yeah, so what Cassie found calls it the Goldilocks hours, I believe, is that if you can recapture two to five hours a day, right, more than five hours generally, that's going to start to make you feel unproductive. I also cite in the book Time Surveys that suggests that we probably have more leisure time than we

think. It seems that the folks that have the least amount of leisure are female wives and domestic partnerships. But even those tend to have almost two hours a day that they could recapture. When I bring up data like this, oftentimes people scoff, there's like, there's just no way that I can recapture 14 hours in my week. But if you think about it in the context of 168 hours, right? There generally is some space that we can play with. So what I suggest going from the fact that

there likely is this pocket of time that we can recapture, just try and start with two to three hours. Figure out, again, you don't wanna be additive because then we're getting into this realm of toxic positivity where it's like, oh, no, you just need that add activity. You're already busy schedule. Like that's not going to hit. But if you do look at ways that you've habituated your time and oftentimes for some folks that's going to be social media use for some people, it's going to be relationships with convenience. For some people, it's going to be these times of busy work, like for a lot of people answering emails from 8 to 930 when they look at that critically. That's not really moving anything forward, just a simple sort of reframe of their admin work to recreate that space and then integrating activities back in.

And so that's, again, we talked about these headwinds, but for a lot of folks that are already so burnt out, the idea of taking a dance class on a Wednesday, I just don't, I can't do that. But ultimately, when they integrate something like that back in, so they're really, if dances their thing, once they start to enjoy themselves, they realize how they show up on a Thursday.

Like, wow, I really had fun. And they start to look forward to that. And so once you get that taste, like, oh my gosh, okay, so taking some time off the table for myself really does allow me to show up as a better version of myself over time, this really quick course correction and finding that balance, right? Okay, I do want to enjoy some time. And even for the folks that are so time poor that they can't do that, I talk about a strategy in a book called activity bundling, how can you re-engineer time with things that you have to do and make them more enjoyable. So even if there's no way to integrate leisure into your life, which I would suggest is quite problematic and you probably need

to do some deep work of why you can't find two to three hours out of your 168 to have a little bit of fun. Then you definitely need the book, right? But even if you're in that state, where can you look for opportunities with activities that you have to do and make them a little bit more enjoyable? So you don't just feel like the whole week filled a treasury. Yeah, and I follow on to that would be you saying the book that sometimes we fall into a habitual yielding process. And your solution from saving ourselves from yielding is to expand what you call a fun file. Can you explain to the listener some examples of yielding and then outline the three steps of creating your fun file? Yeah, absolutely. So outline the three steps of creating your fun file? Yeah, absolutely.

So yielding comes from something called the play model. And essentially, it's just a way to easily determine activities that you do find enjoyable and activities that you don't. And so the yielding category are activities that we've bitchuated, that we think that are fun. But oftentimes, when you peel it back, you realize that it's time what I call

in the nothing, right? It's really not contributing to indexing any memories. You look back at it, and so a good litmus test is, if I asked you in two weeks time, can you tell me one thing you remember from being on Instagram? And you can't, because it wasn't interesting and that was really a way to pacify time. A lot of times, it's essentially just a way to alleviate boredom. And so that's what the yielding category is. And it's not just villainizing social media use because sometimes social media is a great way

to connect with others. For some, it will be plop down on the couch every Tuesday and Thursday and watch whatever is on. Again, it could be engaging in something that you've ritualized that when you look at it critically, you're like, this is just something I don't need to be doing anymore, right? Whether that's work or some other agreement. And so looking at those things and trying to figure out

how to minimize those is an important step. Because again, one of the things that we need to do is create that space and not just layer things onto an already busy life. The fun file is a very simple exercise. It's essentially for a lot of us, again, I'm 50 years old. If you haven't had fun for the last decade,

then you need a simple reminder of what are the things that I do want to enjoy. Again, the three aspects of that, oftentimes are friends that maybe you're not engaging with as much as you want, long lost hobbies or just places, right? Nature, activities like at a lake or whatever are our common examples. And so the first step is doing a big brainstorm, right? Just have fun with it, get really curious. For some people having a time constraint is helpful because you don't feel like it's just

this another thing at homework that you have to do. For others, do it over time, make it an expansive list. Then, when I suggest, and again, this is based on the science of paradox of choice, is pairing that list down to eight or 15 things, right? So, it's not just this big data dump, it actually becomes something that's more tangible. And so, the eight to 15 should be things that are somewhat realistic, right? Like I talk about on the book, I used to do Iron Man's, but with now that I have a hip replacement, that's just not something that I could do. So it might initially make the brains form, but it's not realistic anymore for me. So I would cross that off. Some of them should be things

that are fairly simple to do. Some should be more aspirational, but again, you want to get your big list down to 8 to 15. And then the final step is to make sure that you schedule it, right? And so what we found is that any sort of work obligation that gets on your calendar becomes immutable, right? I mean, we're, we now live by our calendars. Some people even feel that are slaves to those tools, right? And so making sure that you schedule it and even better, if you can do it with a friend by, Hey, let's do this 5K or hey, I'm going to meet up with you at a comedy club or whatever it is.

And if you're an introvert, it could be a solo activity, but just make sure that it's scheduled so it actually gets done. And again, it goes back to that. The subtlety of like, oh, do I really need to do this? Right? Because fun has become hard to prioritize. Just prioritize one or two events and then figure out how that makes you feel. And almost every person that I've walked through this exercise realizes like, wow, okay, that was good. That did fill my cup back up. It contributed to my renewal. Let's try this again. And that's using the fun file quote unquote, then becomes this sort of act of self exploration. And you realize that gaining

agency and autonomy back over the way you spend your leisure starts to lead to all sorts of positive consequences. Well, I love that. And it's just one of the many tools that you outline in the book. And I wish we had time to go through all of them, but we both want people to buy this book. So there's that as well. Well, speaking of things that you've brought up in the interview already, you mentioned Abraham Maslow, and I was lucky enough this past year to have three scientists on the show who were leading experts on peak experiences, Scott Berry Kaufman, David Yaden, and David Vago. Two of them actually started, were mentored by Marty Seligman, and all are researching it in different ways. David Yaden is examining how psychedelics and altered states

influence it. David Vago is examining meditation and mindfulness and how it can put you into peak experiences. And SBK is examining how choosing growth and expanding our human potential coincide with peak experiences. In your own book, you outlined five gateways to peak experiences. And how did you develop your theory and what are some of those gateways?

Yeah, so I borrowed a lot from gaming, which I think is a little bit unique in my approach and maybe a novel, but I talk about this psychological concept of edgework. And so where can we play with those boundaries of not necessarily really engaging in risk, although that's certainly a component of it, but these things that

one is invite the opportunity for and wonder and also opportunities to stretch our understanding of our connection with the things around us. I call these activities and the living quadrant when we are able to Create these opportunities by inviting them in whatever that means to use. So again, it could be a connection to nature. It could be really mastering a new school that skill, excuse me, it could be the opportunity for engaging in some sort of risk behavior. And then again, it could be, this is another facet of mastery, but something that really leads to these opportunities

for personal growth. Making sure that those are also a component of your fun habit allows you to then stretch your understanding, right, create this connection to something much bigger than yourself. I call it the transition from a me state to a we state. And once we do that, we can transcend our sort of human desire for meaning making. And so that's what really leads to these opportunities to invite peak experiences in, right?

Because we realize that we're a little bit more insignificant than we thought, right? Like this connection to something much bigger. And again, it could be your relationship with mastering a skill, could be your connection to something that you feel is greater than yourself, spiritual quest or nature, these elements of nature. And so just making sure that those are a component,

once you do the initial course correction, developing your fun habit in this way, really can lead to those peak experiences. Yes, I absolutely agree with many of those. And in my own upcoming book, I have a framework that lays out kind of five transition points on your path to becoming passion struck and the last one is really that switch from me to we and how much doing so opens your life up to all different sorts of aspects of meaning, transcendence and ultimately captivating more happiness and meaning into your life. Well, society's response to our over-scheduled life has been, as you say, distress enjoyment

in the moment and the power of the precious now. And in chapter three, you introduced something called the saver system. But what I wanted you to concentrate on was the R and SAVER, because one of the things I coach people on is something I call the deliberate action process. I think the thing that we often, most mistake, is measuring our output and R in your SAVER methodology is reminiscing.

And why do you believe that reminiscing and enjoyment after the moment is where our focus should be instead of in the present and what are some strategies to do that? Well, just to be clear, so I do suggest that when you're in your activities, you certainly should be mindful of them, right? I think what I write about in the book is that we've undervalued this idea of relishing things after the fact. And so oftentimes, and again, it goes back to this work

comes from Dr. Timothy Wilson and others to this fact that we undervalue allowing ourselves to simmer with good experiences. so, relishing being the last component of Saver is an act of being able to saver fun things after the fact, and that's okay. And so it can be an act of gratitude by talking about various different ways, creating artifacts, creating a journal, but using those experiences. So as we develop our fun habit, being able to remember those things and use those as opportunities to expand funds value becomes extremely important because again we've forgotten that fact we're always times, especially if we see ourselves in rumination for hours at a time, like if you're the type of person that sits in bed one hour a night just stressing about the next day, use those opportunities

for these acts of reminiscing can be really helpful because one, it allows you to expand the benefit of fun, but two, to your point, it gives you rich about what are the things that you like. As you're thinking about what you enjoy, you can then decide, okay, I really want to integrate these things more because this is something that really fills me up. And then it's also a great opportunity to reach out to others because if you're reminiscing, I talk about using primes and that there's a reason, right, that Facebook has those things that bring you back to the next year. And the problem is those, those things that bring you back to the next year. And the problem is those things that bring you back are based on their algorithms, right? Like, did this particular thing get likes and get comments?

And again, that just goes to show you, here's an external sort of a reward mechanism that's not of your own making. So what I suggest is if you really had a great time, why don't you put a reminder for yourself the next year, especially if it's an intimate thing that you wouldn't put on Facebook anyways. One, you'll remember it, right? So we're bringing you back to that moment, but two, it might be a nice nudge to actually connect with that person and make sure you do something with them. And if nothing else, just reaching out and letting them know outside of the realm of social media, like, hey, I was just thinking about this, the trip that we had and how much it meant to me and how much I miss you, that reignites that social connection you have that person. And so, what I really get into the chapter is there are these mechanisms that are helping us do that, but if we bring them

inward so that they're more meaningful, they have a lot more value. I love that whole chapter and I think it's so important because we don't look back enough as we should and use that to power how the future present moments that we live in could be made even better. And in chapter seven, I just love the title, Friendship is Weird. And I'll go for it. Back to Bill Murray and back to Robert Waldinger because the adult development study found that relationships were the key to happiness. And so what I want to ask you is,

what is the importance of having fun friendships and friendships organized around deliberate fun? Yeah, so I mean, I really am standing on the shoulders of giants there, right? I mean, we now know that loneliness really has a direct line, not just a psychological ailments, but physiological ailments as well, right? And it sounds like you've looked at that phenomenon

already in previous podcasts. And so the idea of connecting with people that do bring joy becomes extremely important. And so especially coming out of the pandemic, so many of us have dedicated our lives in a way that we haven't prioritized those friendships. And so making sure that you're connecting with at least an intimate group of folks that really will sort of again through these access social contagion, invite joy into your life becomes important. And so I think for so many of us, we just let that go.

So this invitation to make sure that you're connecting with folks that when you are with them, you guys all smile, right? Because this stuff is infectious and it becomes, again, this upward spiral. And so within that chapter, there's some hints and tips on how to do that. And especially for folks that might be in a new area,

ways to use things like meetup.com or affinity groups or things of that nature, to just get out be in a new area, ways to use things like meetup.com or affinity groups or things of that nature to just get out there and make new friends, especially if you're in a place like I talk about how we moved from California to North Carolina and had to reestablish that. And so sometimes you can sit on your hands and just go, okay, well hopefully it comes to me, but I think that there is some pretense in trying even if you're a little bit shy, like myself, I tend to be a little bit socially awkward, to go out there and connect with folks that do just make you feel like life is worth living. Yeah, and I think one of the most important aspects of finding a life worth living is finding a way to bring your fun habit to work, which is something that you go into in chapter 9.

And I didn't interview a few months ago with Juliet Font and she wrote a great book that's all about the importance of white space. And Akhtai is into your premise that's having a sense of autonomy during the workday can help us recover from work stress. What is the importance of doing that? Yeah, so this really falls back on my initial academic work and workplace wellness and it's clear the underpinnings of this are from social determination theory and that is the more that we feel like we have control over the work we can deliver than the more we tend to enjoy it. And so creating fun environments within the workplace are fairly complex then the more we tend to enjoy it. And so creating fun environments within the workplace are fairly complex because the more people that you have or the dynamic can be

complicated with regards to creating the psychological safety for fun to thrive. So certainly, I think that's an ideal that people should strive for. But I had a choice when I was writing the chapter. Do I write it for the individual or do I write it for the leader? And since the whole rest of the book is really meant to talk to the individual reader, what I suggest is exactly what you shared is that you have a lot more control to create fun within your workplace than you think. And so it goes back to all the tools that we've already talked about throughout this. One is, are you really taking a break to

have fun during something like your lunch hours so that you come back to the second half of work with more vigor and vitality? The other is, are you communicating with your boss in a way that allows you to have that autonomy so that you can be more playful for the work that you have? And so there's all sorts of different tips in there, but and it's going to be unique to each person's point. I'm not familiar with our white space, but that it sounds spot on. How do you create a more playful environment by one, making sure that when you are staying productive, you're communicating it well, but to how can you regain a little bit more of the time that you have in your workspace so that you're able to really do it the way that you have in your workspace so that you're able to really do it the way that you want to.

Yeah, well, she uses the great analogy of if you've ever made a bonfire, the one thing that you need to take into account is that you need white space or that fire is never going to light. And she relates the same things to our work life, that if you're not giving yourself enough breaks, enough time to think, enough time to take a step back and take yourself out of the grind, then you're not going to have that burst of flame to be creative, to come up with the idea, to lead the team in the way that you should. And so that's how she describes it, which I think coincides exactly with what you just said. Yeah, and so I think to highlight that

in that particular chapter, I bring forth the wisdom of John Cleese, right? So it's specific, again, might not apply to everyone, but if you have an innovative problem, how can you really create sort of a playful space to find that problem, right? Where you're really playful with any of the particular solutions. There is no sort of outcome focus.

So like maybe one of those will work, but ultimately it's okay if none of them work, you can throw them all away, but ultimately make that time bound, right? So it's not scary. You're not like, oh my gosh, I've wasted all this time. So there's all these little sort of opportunities,

but that's right in line without white space. Once you create that sort of playful space within your work environment, you might be able to enjoy a particular, heavy sort of problem that might, without making it playful, might otherwise continue. Yeah, and you brought this up earlier in the interview, but chapter 11, you introduced the concept that we can use fun as a force for change. And I loved it because I recently interviewed a co-founder of the Home Depot, Bernie Marcus, who is a huge philanthropist, and he brought up during an interview, how giving back was a way for him not only to have fun, but to feel more connected and to feel a much bigger sense

of meaning. And I was hoping you could just jump on that point by talking about the benefits of doing so. Yeah, I think what I found in that chapter is a few things. One, it goes along to everything that we said. And I think if I believe in the listeners with something is this idea that these big problems that we were trying to achieve, if we're not enjoying the process, we tend to burn out. Right. And so one of the things that I highlight is the success of the ALS bucket challenge. Right. Here is something that's a pretty grim disease that people are trying to face, but two folks that were working with that particular organization that ultimately ended up passing, right?

So we're not, this isn't something whimsical again, this is something very serious created something that was fun that took off because although it highlighted this terrible disease, it also allowed people to add a little levity to such a heavy topic and ended up being one of the most successful charitable events ever, right? And so that goes back to a few things. One, lighten the load, something that was really awful. But two, in that particular campaign, it allowed people to, with some autonomy, right? They were able to figure out how they wanted to bring awareness to it and really had fun with putting an ice bucket over their head. But also, these problems don't get solved overnight. And so figuring out ways where you can have some sort of resilience

and the energy to move on becomes extremely important. And so what is folks that are overburdened with that sense of duty and just weighed down by the heaviness of these causes ultimately don't last very long. And so knowing that you can still do really important work, but the importance of at least enjoying the process and the people that you are aware of along the way, again, becomes extremely important. And so serve two purposes, right? One, I think it highlights the importance of not the course corrective of what's needed to make sure that people are enjoying some of the time in whatever they engage in, but two, that extremely important

work gets done when we are enjoying ourselves. and work gets done when we are enjoying ourselves. That's great. And Mike, I usually like to end these interviews by asking the author, what take away they would want the listener to have, but I'm going to ask you're in a little bit different way. What is the importance of these six words? It's chaos. Fe kind. Have fun. its chaos, fey kind, have fun. This comes from Pat and Oswald, I was digging into his similar situation with losing his wife, and I think no matter where you fall

with regards to your own spirituality, most of us would agree that there's an abundance of bad and abundance of good, right? And so whatever well you want to dream from, you can, right? But at the end of the day, I make the book that, yes, bad things are going to happen. There's going to be loss in your life. There are going to be challenges.

But if you look for it, there's an abundance of good. And generally, with a little bit of being deliberate about how you organize your life, you can skew the way your life goes in a pleasurable way so that you look back on it and enjoy yourself. But not only that, the research suggests that as important as fun is it's also making sure that you take others along for the ride and live your life with some empathy. So the reason I love those six words is we're all going to be faced with challenges and certainly, you want to avoid toxic positivity because if you don't acknowledge that life is chaos,

again, based on the work of Dr. Iris Mouse and others, we know that the motivation just won't hit. It will create this dissidents and ultimately lead you in wrong direction. But if you are mindful that, yes, there's going to be bad times, but that you have control over the good times. And along the way, you're kind of others. You really will have a life well lived in the life that you have control over the good times, and along the way, you're kind to others. You really will have a life well-lived in the life that you want. So again, I just think here in the West, here in the US,

we all need this kind of course-corrective. Whether you want to call it radical or not, that's fine. So many of us are just burnt out, not having fun, and not enjoying these hours of this gift that we were given. And so, yeah, I think that just summarizes sort of my ethos and what I hope people get out the book. Yeah, the power of choosing how you spend the hours of your day. An important message for all of us. I'm like, if there was one way you wanted a listener to get in touch with everything that you do, what would that be?

Well, absolutely. I'd love it if you support the book. I think it took six years to make. So we really refined it and I tend to be very verbose. So I had a great collaborator, Sarah Grace. And so I think the book is all the wisdom that I was able to find through my own journey condensed in something that's very approachable. My website is MichaelRucker.com. So I tend to write longer form content on there and really focus on the science. So if you don't feel like investing in the book, you can certainly find a lot of my work there too. And feel free to reach out on any of my social channels which are all available on the website. I'm pretty approachable, and I'm here for

the dialogue. Well, great. Well, Mike, thank you so much for the honor being on the show today. And congratulations again on your great book that we just covered, Tip the iceberg on. And for those who are listening, again, it's called The Fun Habit. We've referred to it a bunch of times, but we can't say it enough. Thank you so much for having me on, John. This is a pleasure. You're very welcome.

I thoroughly enjoyed that interview with Mike Rucker. And I wanted to thank Mike, Shida Carr, and Atria Books for giving us the honor of interviewing him. Links to all things Mike will be in the show notes at passionstruck.com. Please use the website links if you purchase any of the books from the guests that we feature here on the show.

All proceeds go to making this show happen. Videos are on YouTube at both John R. Miles and Passion Struck clips. Advertiser deals and discount codes in one convenient place at PassionStruck.com slash deals. I'm on LinkedIn and you can also find me at John R. Miles on Twitter and Instagram where I provide daily content that goes far and above to support what we do here on the show. You're about to hear a preview of the Passion Strike Podcast interview I did with Lisa Honig, Bookspom, who leads Soaring Winds, a not-for-profit organization that is devoted to inspiring children, families, adults, seniors, and healthcare professionals to take active roles

in self-healing to experience greater physical, emotional, and mental well-being. She is the author of Soaring Into Strength, Love Transans Pain, or debut memoir. Most people are miserable because they think that happiness is a trait, like you have red hair or you're very tall, but happiness is a state. It comes and goes, it ebbs and flows. So optimism, learning how to cherish those micro moments of positivity by being fully present. Like, wow, I'm sitting here at this table and both of my sons are here and my daughter-in-law is here and my 85 year old mom is here and my husband and my grandbaby. This is great. This is a moment. Take it in instead of like, okay, let's do the table, let's have dessert.

So optimism, it comes and it goes, but if you can experience those micro moments and save for them, you're doing really well. The fee for this show is that you share it with friends or family members when you find something useful or inspirational. If you know someone who would really like to have more fun in their life, then definitely share today's episode with them. The greatest compliment that you can give us is to share the show with those that you love and care about. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show

so that you can live what you listen. And until next time, live live passion strut. you