Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Gretchen Rubin on Rediscover Joy by Intentionally Engaging the Five Senses EP 281

Episode Date: April 18, 2023

When Gretchen Rubin's eye doctor warned her of the risks of losing her sight, she never expected this unexpected twist in her life--an awakening that allowed her to experience the world with heightened clarity and joy. Little did she know that this moment of awareness would lead her on a journey to uncover the power of her senses and a newfound connection with the world. We discuss Rubin's brand-new book Life in Five Senses: How Exploring the Senses Got Me Out of My Head and Into the World. Gretchen Rubin Joins Me to Share How Exploring Her Five Senses Go Her Out Of Her Head and Into the World. Have you ever heard the myths that engaging the five senses intentionally can't bring joy and that it’s too hard to be mindful when engaging the senses? Or that sensory mindfulness is just for those seeking relaxation? Gretchen Rubin is about to show you the truth about rediscovering joy through engaging the five senses intentionally. Full show notes and resources can be found here: https://passionstruck.com/rediscover-joy-by-engaging-the-five-senses/  Brought to you by Green Chef. Use code passionstruck60 to get $60 off, plus free shipping!” Brought to you by Indeed. Head to https://www.indeed.com/passionstruck, where you can receive a $75 credit to attract, interview, and hire in one place. --► For information about advertisers and promo codes, go to: https://passionstruck.com/deals/  Like this show? Please leave us a review here -- even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter or Instagram handle so we can thank you personally! --► Prefer to watch this interview: https://youtu.be/SlMv1G16Bcg  --► Subscribe to Our YouTube Channel Here: https://youtu.be/qR3z2VoR7t8  Want to find your purpose in life? I provide my six simple steps to achieving it - passionstruck.com/5-simple-steps-to-find-your-passion-in-life/ Catch my interview with Lori Gottlieb on the importance of embracing self-compassion: https://passionstruck.com/lori-gottlieb-on-embracing-self-compassion/  Want to hear my best interviews from 2022? Check out episode 233 on intentional greatness and episode 234 on intentional behavior change. ===== FOLLOW ON THE SOCIALS ===== * Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/passion_struck_podcast * Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/johnrmiles.c0m  Learn more about John: https://johnrmiles.com/  Passion Struck is now on the AMFM247 broadcasting network every Monday and Friday from 5–6 PM. Step 1: Go to TuneIn, Apple Music (or any other app, mobile or computer) Step 2: Search for “AMFM247” Network

Coming up next, I'm PassionStruck. It's really astonishing when you realize just how true this is, that we are not experiencing sort of an objective world, that we are shaped by what our brains think we need to know. Welcome to PassionStruck. Hi, I'm your host, John Armiles, and on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips, and guidance of the world's most inspiring people

and turn their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you. Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself. If you're new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays. We have long form interviews the rest of the week with guest ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries, and athletes. Now, let's go out there and become PassionStruck. Hello everyone and welcome back to episode 281 of

PassionStruck. Ranked by Apple is one of the top 20 health podcasts. You can now listen to PassionStruck on syndicated radio on Mondays and Fridays from 5 to 6 p.m. on the AM FM 247 broadcast. Listings of the radio shows will be in the show notes, and you can also find us on Apple music, tune in, or whatever player you use. And if you're new to the show, thank you so much for joining us, or you simply want to introduce this to a friend or family member. We now have episodes starter packs with your collections of our fans, favorite episodes

that we organize in convenient topics to give any new listener a great way to get acclimated to everything we do here on the show. Either go to Spotify or passionstruck.com slash starter packs to get started. And in case you missed it, last week I interviewed New York Times Best Selling Author Laurie Gottlieb and we discussed her book, Maybe You Should Talk To Someone, which is being adapted for TV with Ivan Lungoria. I also interviewed Cyrus Kumbata and Robbie Barbaro, New York Times Best Selling Authors of the book, Mastering Diabetes, and we discussed how you can reverse type 2 diabetes, pre-diabetes, and other chronic diseases through the use of diet. And lastly, I interviewed Gabriella Rosenkellerman,

who is the co-author of the new book Tomorrow Mind with Marty Selegman. And we discuss how do you thrive at work with resilience, creativity, and connection now and in an uncertain future. Please check them all out. And if you love any of them, we would so appreciate you giving us a five star rating in review which goes such a long

way in helping us to bring more people into our ever-growing passion struck community where we can give weekly doses of hope, meaning, connection, and inspiration. And I also know that our guests love seeing your reviews as well in hearing what the audience felt of their interviews. Now let's talk about today's episode after over 10 years of studying human nature and happiness, Rechen Rubin had an epiphany during a routine visit to the eye doctor. She came to the realization that she had been neglecting an important part of her happiness. Her five senses, her constant preoccupation with her thoughts, had caused her to overlook the simple pleasures of daily life. This realization inspired her to embark on a journey of self-exploration,

in which she sought to rediscover the joys of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, and touching. Ruben's exploration of the five senses is a quest for a happier and more meaningful existence. By drawing on the latest scientific research, literature, philosophy, and her own experiments, she demonstrates the profound impact of tuning in for a physical world. She reveals the power of savoring small pleasures, like enjoying the taste of ketchup or listening to a favorite song, as well as some more adventure-sump proceeds, like visiting the Metropolitan Museum of Art and attending Flavor University. In our interview, Gretchen shares her discoveries on how engaging with our five senses can add death,

delight, and connection toward daily experiences. In the rush of modern life, she believes our senses can serve as a sustainable and immediate way to find joy, calm and engagement. Ultimately, Ruben contends that engaging with our senses can provide us with a glimpse into the soul and connection to the transcendent. Gretchen Ruben is one of today's most influential observers of happiness and human nature, with several blockbuster bestsellers under her belt, including Out order, inner comm, the foretandencies, better than before, and the number one New York Times best seller, a happiness project. She has sold over 3.5 million copies of her books and over 30 languages. Additionally, she hosts the popular and award-winning podcast, Happier with Gretchen Ribbon, where she delves

into actionable strategies for enhancing our well-being. Thank you for choosing PassionStruck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life. Now, let that journey begin. I am absolutely thrilled and so honored to have Gretchen Rubin come back to PassionStruck. Welcome. I'm so happy to be getting the chance to talk to you again. Gretchen, as I told you the first time we talked, you are one of my absolute favorite authors and I was so ecstatic to hear you have another book coming out today, called Life in Five Senses, How Exploring the S. This one is more like red and orange and green.

It's very different. It's funny. Every book jacket is such a journey. And then you get to the end and you're so happy. And I'm going to say, I love this new book. But especially the cover design as well, because it's different from your previous ones,

which had a different color palette to it. I've been in the blue and yellow color palette for a while. This one is more like red and orange and green. It's very different. It's funny. Every book jacket is such a journey. And then you get to the end and you're so happy. So yeah, I really love the cover. Well, I'm going to start this out by saying when I think about the word shame, I think about Bernabé Brown or when I think about optimism, I think of Simon Sennick. or when I think about optimism, I think of Simon Seneca. And when I think about Gretchen Rubin typically, I think about the word happiness and the science of the soul. And in your number one New York Times bestselling book, in case the audience hasn't read it,

you discuss your 12-month journey that you called the Happiness Project. In this book, you also embark on another journey. So I'd love the parallel to explore life using your five senses. What inspired you to take on this journey? Well, I had shock. So I'm a person who gets pink eye a lot and I got a really bad case. So I went to the eye doctor.

And on my way out, he said to me very casually, we'll be sure to come back for your regular checkup because as you're at greater risk of losing your sight. And on my way out, he said to me very casually, we'll be sure to come back for your regular checkup because it's your at greater risk of losing your site. And I was like, wait, what? No, I did not know that. What are you talking about? And he said, oh, yeah, you're very near-sighted,

so you're more at risk of having a detached retina. And if that happens, it can affect your site. So we want to know right away. And I had a friend who had just lost some site from a detached retinus. This felt very real to me. So I went out onto the street and I thought, I'm taking it all for granted.

Of course, intellectually, I knew that already, that you could lose anything at any time. And of course, I knew too that I could have a rich satisfying life, even if I had lost some of my senses. But it was just like for the first time it really hit me. I think I value my site, but I'm taking everything for granted. As I had that thought, that realization, it was like every knob of perception in my brain just got dialed up to 11. And I just could see everything with perfect clarity. I could hear every sound. I could smell so many smells. I live in New York City. So there's a lot of smells.

Everything just seems like hyper real. It was like a psychedelic experience. I walked home and I realized all this is happening around me all the time. realized all this is happening around me all the time. I don't pay any attention. I'm stuck in my head. I walk around in this fog of preoccupation. I need to connect with the world and the way that I can connect with the world is through my five senses until then I thought, okay, I am a kind of street scientist who's always experimenting on myself. So I thought, okay, I want to learn about the five senses and figure out how to engage with them better. I want to learn about the five senses and figure out how to engage with them better. Well, you're not alone on going to the eye doctor and having that type of discovery. I went in about a year ago and they told me I have the early signs of a potential detached retina. So they started to go through, you need to be watching for floaties and you need to be looking out for this and that. Yes. And then during that same thing, they said your pressures are also getting higher and you've got a family history of glaucoma. And it's funny because I am now taking these glaucoma drops, but when I go back and the

pressures are much better, et cetera, the doctor made the surprising announcement to me that I am one of the few patients that she has that actually uses their drops religiously. And it just caught me so off guard because why would anyone not take the intentional step to do the simple thing of putting drops in once a night to prevent potential blindness. It was really surprising to me. That is, I find that surprising too, but on the other hand, maybe not, because one of my earlier books was better than before,

and it's all about how we can make and break habits. And in studying habits, one of the things that is just such an issue is people taking medication. Blood pressure medication, diabetes medication. I had not heard this about glaucoma, but and it is surprising. And one of the things I really looked at when I was writing better than before was if you think you want to take medication and you're not, what could you do to maybe fix it or if you're a doctor or a health care professional and you're frustrated

because you don't understand why patients aren't doing it, how could you communicate more effectively or help them approach their habit more effectively to get them to do it? I don't even remember the number but there's just some staggeringly large number of like finding out money that we could save like as the United States if people just regularly took medication to manage chronic conditions, and you think, well, why wouldn't you, but often people don't. So it is a very deep question in human nature.

Boy, if they told me to take the drops, I would have taken the drops for sure. I mean, your camp that feels very real to me, I would take those drops. Well, especially since you and I are both writers and it would be very difficult to do what we love without our eyes. Not impossible, but very difficult.

Well, leading up to your episode today, I've intentionally done a number of episodes on the impact of the overuse of technology and what it's having on society. And in many ways, I really think when we speak of senses, it's numbing them and causing us to feel more disconnected, not only from the world, but more importantly, from our human connections and ourselves. And in the book, and you just mentioned Feeling Stock, you described something that I think is happening

to billions of people across the planet. And that is, they're getting so stuck in their heads, they're not paying attention to the world around them. And I think we spend our time on autopilot, sleepwalking through our days, being unintentional about the actions we're taking. And these are things that I think so many people are feeling and I'm worried about the world that your kids and mine because they're about the same age are entering. And what did you learn as you were going through this and coming out of that feeling stuck about how do you break free from this chronic fog of what you call preoccupation? That's the million dollar question. And I think there's so many things going on. And I think you're right. I think devices play a big role now more than ever. This is an issue because I think for a lot of people on the one hand experience feels flat and drained.

And we're behind a screen. And so it feels sort of thin. And then maybe so maybe you're craving more stimulation. But then on the other hand, things can feel hyperprocessed or oversaturated. So you go to a movie and you more images than you would ever see and there's a soundtrack, but then you're not smelling anything and there's no air in your face or like this food is processed to hit so many bliss points so it feels irresistible and yet it doesn't fill the air with the aromas of cooking and grilling that would help you to feel tantalized and then satisfied. And so we're sort of caught in this kind of under processed and over-processed. And I think that is feeding people's desire to get back in touch with the world. People don't seem that interested in the metaverse. It's like, we want to connect with the universe. This is why everything now is billing itself is immersive. Museums are immersive, stores are immersive.

There's a lot of... Because I think people just want that so badly, that feeling of really deep engagement. badly, that feeling of really deep engagement. And so I think part of it is figuring out ways to help yourself resist temptations that make you feel disconnected, whether that's your phone or other devices, or like for me part of it was just this kind of hyper-focus, which it's a bug and a feature. I really can focus. And sometimes I can focus so much that like I'm on the beach, really can focus. And sometimes I can focus so much that like I'm on the beach, but I'm not even seeing the ocean or smelling the ocean or feeling the breeze in my face because I'm editing a paragraph in my head. You mentioned intentionality. And I think so much of it comes back to that is like getting out like really figuring out ways to have that habit of getting out into the body. And then the other thing is thinking, well,

what are the practices that would help me to connect? Because part of it is about dealing with devices, and then part of it is just like dealing with yourself, which you can never put down. You're stuck with yourself all day long. So you have to figure out how to manage that as well. Well, just yesterday, I was chatting with our mutual friend Susan Cain about her incredible announcement that they're making bittersweet into a play, which I thought was just awesome. But I saw that she gave you endorsement for the book and called it an inspiring and practical guide to living in the moment.

And that phrase being present in the moment is often overused, but to a surprising degree, I find that living in the moment is really about how do we live in our own sensory world. Could you explain what your research discovered about the amount of senses that there are because there were many more than I expected and why you decided to focus on the five core ones. Yeah, I mean science now, are there 33 or there 35? They're uncovering new ones all the time. You get into arguments about definitions

and all of these senses are extraordinarily important and very essential to our sense of well-being. The five senses that you might call the kindergarten senses or the Aristotelian senses, there's a special glamour to those. We're very aware of those. We're very aware of our hearing. We're not that aware of our inter-interception. Not that it doesn't matter a lot, and we would notice if it wasn't working properly, but it doesn't occupy the same place in our consciousness. And so I decided I was really going to focus on the big five and One of the things you talked about being president in the moment I find for myself that when I'm trying to achieve an aim even a very transcendent aim

It helps me to have things that are very concrete that I'm trying to do I try to get there in some very practical way, the kind of thing that a busy person could do without spending a lot of time energy or money. And you would know if you did it because I feel like being present in the moment or appreciating life, to me those feel a little bit vague. So I like things like write a taste timeline of your life.

And then I'm like, oh, I can do that. I know that I can do that. It feels very concrete. And then I'm like, oh, I can do that. I know that I can do that. It feels very concrete. And so I'm very attracted to achieving these sort of more abstract and transcendent ames through very concrete practices. Through the senses is a very concrete way to do it. So if you think, oh, I need to have more serenity in my life.

It's, okay, well, how would you use your sense of hearing to have more serenity? That to me it's okay, well, how would you use your sense of hearing to have more serenity? That to me feels like something that I can actually follow through with, whereas if I just tried to be less stressed out, by, I'm like, that feels much harder to me. So that's why I think the five senses give us this sort of shortcut to achieve these aims

that might feel more difficult, like sparking our imagination or connecting with other people, fighting stress, getting more energy, all these things we can get there through the five senses in a way that feels more straightforward and also more fun than other ways. Well, one of the most important things that I took away from the book is similar to how we each learn differently. You found that we also all live in our own unique sensory world. Can you explain? Bill, this was astonishing to me because I intellectually knew this, that everyone's

sensory world is shaped by their genetics, their upbringing, their experiences, their preferences, their experience in utero before they're born, but it's really astonishing when you realize just how true this is, that we are not experiencing sort of an objective world, that we are shaped by what our brains think we need to know. So for instance, one thing a brain is interested in is change, because change means danger or opportunity. So if I throw a rock at your head, you're going to notice that.

If there's just a rock on the ground, you might not notice that because it doesn't clamor for attention in the same way. So this comes up in all kinds of interesting ways. For instance, you cannot smell your house. The way a guest smells it. Because of something called odor fatigue. Even if your house has a very strong smell, let's say you have tons and tons of air freshener in there, your brain won't tell you about that smell because it's so familiar. It doesn't you don't need to know that, whereas if eyes your guests come over, I might really notice that smell because our brains are just queuing us to different information.

our brains are just queuing us to different information. A friend of mine was just telling me today that he has a problem with alarms because it's not an unexpected sound. So he has to make sure that he changes his ring tones. Now I've never had that happen but I'm also light sleepers. I'm like, well that's interesting because he's a very heavy sleeper. So maybe his brain is we're looking for a reason to stay asleep whereas my brain is waking me up. So it just it's then we have associations. So a classic is if you get very sick on liquor, then for the rest of your life, you really don't want to do to you that tastes terrible. Whereas to somebody else that might taste great, because you have that association with it. Or think about the dress. The now, what did you see John? Did you see it as white and gold or did you see it as blue and black? The famous dress. Did you see it as white and gold or did you see it as blue and black? The famous dress.

I saw it as blue and black. So you were right. I saw it. I see it as white and gold. And even though I now know that you are right and the actual color of that dress is blue and black, I cannot make my I see it that way. Sometimes with optical illusions, you can see it both ways. You can flip back and forth.

I cannot see it as blue and black, even though I know intellectually that that is correct, we're just we're not seeing the same objective reality. Yeah, I think a couple other great examples that you brought up is a couple of minutes ago, a FedEx truck pulled up and I had never really seen that arrow that is between the E and the X. Isn't it amazing? Were you so surprised that you'd never seen it before? I was just blown away and the other one was I was driving the other day by a bask in a robins and that's another one where I'd never seen 31 in their logo.

Yeah, it's so subtle you just don't even see it. No, it's funny because I and I don't even know if younger people would know that I don't know if asking Robbins merged with 31 flavors or that was just another name for it or that was like a nickname for it. I don't even know why it was called 31 flavors. But once you see that in their logo, you think, why did I not notice that there's a 31 in a different color? And yet it's very easy not to see it. Well, one of the things you write about in the book is that our five senses regularly make compromises. And this is something I found really interesting. And when one sense clamors for attention, the others fade back. And I found this so interesting,

I decided to experiment with it, and I'll talk about these as we go along. So when I kissed my fiancee Corey the other day, instead of closing my eyes, I intentionally opened them, and it was a very different sensory experience, and it caused me to focus, I found on sight, rather than feeling. What trade-offs does this site-based wiring of our brains do to us?

Well, of our five senses, we are wired for sight. The most real estate in the brain, and as you say, when there is a conflict, sight usually trumps. So sight will win out if there's something else. There's some dispute among the senses. And so there's all kinds of interesting examples of this. It does lead to trade-offs often that we ourselves might not consciously make. And I think of this because I love beautiful smells. And unfortunately, because most people will prefer something, a flower that looks beautiful to one that smells beautiful because of this inclination towards sight. Flowers are bred more for their appearance than for their smell, even though for someone like me smell matters more. And I don't know if you're a tomato fan. I'm not a particular tomato fan, but I often hear people complain that now tomatoes are bred to look really good in the

store, but they don't have as much flavor and are kind of tough and bland because of the trade-offs made in breeding the tomatoes. I found this in my own life because I realized as part of writing the book, I'm very focused on touch, which bizarrely I did not know that about myself until I did this. You would think, how would you not know that, but I just didn't realize that. And when I looked in my closet, I realized that I had a lot of clothes that I never wore. And when I thought about it, I realized it's because

I like the way they look, but I don't like the way they feel. And so I never felt like putting them on. I didn't like the feeling of the texture against my skin. And so I would just always choose to wear something else. So now what I do when I go to buy clothes is I close my eyes and really focus on how does it feel because if I'm just looking in the mirror, I tend to think, oh, this is great. I love this item of clothing. I should definitely buy it because my site is overpowering my sense of like, how much do

I like this item? If I close my eyes and really focus on, oh, it's too tight or I don't like the feeling of that or it's pulling across my shoulders or it's itchy. And so now I can make much better choices that I have to close my eyes to do that because otherwise my site says, oh, this is great. This is exactly what you're looking for.

You should definitely go for this. Well, I've definitely experienced that myself. Maybe when I go to the store, I see a shirt I really like and I try it on and I like the way it looks on me, but you're not really at that moment looking at really how does it fit? How does it make you feel? And then you start wearing it, you realize, why did I ever buy this? It's snug. It fits too tightly across my breasts, etc. So something I've experienced as well. And we've already talked about a couple of the other things that I was going to ask you about when it comes to seeing. But I loved how you were looking for things in your life that you often overlooked, such as we talked about

with the Baskin and Robbins and the FedEx sign. And another one that I had, no clue was there was the Hershey Kisses. Yes. Yeah, look, it's right in their logo, which I'm sure all of us have seen. Even when you know it's there, it took me several seconds to find it. How about you? That one, surprisingly, and the Doritos bag, were a little bit harder for me to see the people in the Doritos and to see the heart and the kisses. But once you see it, that's all you can see. Yeah, yeah. book, Life in Five Senses. So inside the book, I use five icons to represent each of the five senses. And somewhere on the jacket, I've hidden in plain sight one of those icons. And I thought

people would get a kick sort of the wears Waldo of it all. If you look at it, you will definitely see it there. But it's hard to spot it. And I put that in because I just find it so fun to look for the Amazon going from A to Z. I, it's like, I never noticed that till somebody pointed it out. So it is fun to look for, or the hidden eight in the eight of diamonds on a playing card. It's right there when you know to look for it, but it's very easy to overlook these things. It's just astonishing, truly. Yeah. Another experiment that I conducted was I love going to concerts and recently went to one

and I was mentally picturing myself in that concert and instead of them dimming the lights, they made them brighter. And as I thought about it, the entire experience would be different. And I think this goes a long way to why when we go to a music festival and we observe artists during the day, it's a completely different experience than at night. And the reason you lay out in the book is because we hear better in the dark.

I couldn't believe it. Isn't that interesting? No, I never thought about that. Is it a daytime experience, like a brightly lit experience or a dimming exactly? Because that is why they did the lights is to help us. Well, I'm a very fearful driver, so I will turn off the music so I can see better. It's this idea that we want to bring down some stimulation so that other things come to the forefront. But what a great example of how these aspects of a circumstance might really dramatically change our response,

but we might not consciously be aware of why we're responding that way. Yeah, and another one I was listening to a podcast you were doing with your sister, and you probably didn't even hear it, but a few minutes ago, I could hear sirens in the background, which we don't hear very much where I'm at in Tampa, but in New York where you're at, you hear all the time and your sister was talking about, it was the same for her. She hears it every single time because she's in California. You get so used to these things that you don't even see them anymore. I'm sure they're many more. Whether it's honking or helicopters or a dog barking, right, we get so accustomed to it

that it just fades out of our awareness. It's interesting a friend of mine who's very music oriented, they changed the flight path of aircraft in his neighborhood. And so now airplanes fly overhead. And he was saying how for him, it was driving him bonkers. And he was needing this neighborhood initiative to try to get the flight

paths changed back, but then some of his neighbors had not even noticed the change. And so you're like, for one person, it's very distracting and annoying. And another person, like, simply isn't registering the noise. Again, it's this idea that we're all tuned into different things. These sensations are affecting our responses in ways that we might not be aware of. And yeah, so it's absolutely fascinating. Well, I have another great story about that, just came up in my memory. And that is when I was growing up as a kid for a period of time, we lived just outside of Chicago and Palatine. And we were directly on the flight path to Ohera. And as you can imagine, that's a freaking a lot of planes.

Yeah. For one of my birthdays, and it was one of my most memorable ones because my mom made me this rocket cake. I was all into wanting to be an astronaut at the time. They were wanting to throw a big party in the backyard. So my mom actually called the flight tower or had Ohera and got them to switch the flight pattern for three hours, which they accommodated her on so that we wouldn't have noise during

it. Are you kidding? She tells that story today and I still can't believe they did it. But when I think back upon it, I always remember the planes going overhead. Isn't that fascinating? Wow. Isn't that interesting? Wow. Go mom. Wow. No kidding. I would never have even had the imagination of trying to do that. That's extraordinary. Well, another thing you bring up in your chapter on hearing is that you str- something that you strive to do in the book is to listen better. And you admitted that you suffered from something

called Convo Fomo as you describe it. But something then struck out to me. I think your husband, Jamie and I share something in common. That is that neither of us typically talk very much. How did you go about trying to listen better to someone who didn't want to talk? Because I think this is interesting. Yeah, because a lot of times we're all about like how do you listen to someone who's talking, but then it's like the how do you listen to someone who doesn't really want to talk very much. Well, part of it was just when he was ready to talk, being very ready to listen. And so really putting down my book or turning off the TV or putting down the newspaper and really just whenever he was ready to talk, being ready to listen,

because sometimes those things don't match up very much. Another was not to rush in with my own thoughts, my own responses, but to let him talk, to allow a silence to fall, to be present and allow the conversation to unfold. One thing that Jamie often does, especially if it's sort of a difficult conversation, is he will start and then he'll quickly distract. Like he'll look down his phone and send a text to someone or he'll make a joke or he'll somehow and I get very impatient with that because I'm like let's stay on focus like what are you doing and then I realize like sometimes he's just doing that as a way to I don't know if it's anxiety or it's just warming up but just just just just stay patient just like if he needs to send a text or he wants to joke around for a minute, just stay with it.

And part of it was just realizing the pattern. We made a big difference. At once, I sort of sat down and thought it through. It just made me understand frustrations that I just had never really thought about very much. One thing is we let experience as to sort of roll over us without stepping back to think about patterns or to think about someone else's possible point of view. And just by trying to think about listening, I think I'd started to do a better job. Another

thing I found is that the role of touch, so that if we were having a difficult conversation or even just an annoying conversation, we hate doing calendar planning. We're always like, oh, we should sit down with a calendar and then we procrastinate. It was just a little bit of touch, like putting my hand on his back or just a little bit of a touch often would give a more intimate and tender atmosphere to a conversation

if it was sort of edging towards being irritable. And sometimes those kinds of conversations can become. Well another thing before we leave the hearing chapter that I wanted you to touch on, but I want you to go through the whole list is your manifest for listening. Oh yeah. Yeah, I like writing manifestos when everything's important to me. I try to write a manifesto because it helps me crystallize my thoughts. So some of the most important things that I figured out for myself. One is use my body to show that I'm listening.

So directly face someone that means like, are your shoulders parallel to their shoulders? So you're not half turned away. Be very visibly listening. So again, put down your phone, put down your book, turn off the TV to show that you're listening by saying things like, aha, or nodding, often it's helpful to characterize what the person is saying. Because even if you get it wrong, you're showing that you're trying to understand, well, you must have been really frustrated. Or well, that sounds like that

must have been really difficult. Or even one, and then I found some things that are my own personal challenges. I realize that often when somebody is sort of talking about a problem, I will often rush in with a reading suggestion. I always have a book for everything, and I'll be like, oh my gosh, you have to read this book. And I realize like a lot of times people will think, I want to talk about what I'm going through.

I don't want you to give me a reading list of the three books that I have to read this weekend to like help me deal with my separation or whatever. So I now really try to hold myself back and wait for somebody to ask or maybe send a follow up email later rather than deflecting the conversation at the moment, let the person speak and let the conversation play out.

Well, that's something I remember from our last interview is you love to read. And I thought I read a lot. Sometimes I'm reading three, four books a week and you beat me, which is amazing. So. I do love to read, yes. Well, speaking of reading and paper,

I was a youngster, I had a paper out and I remember getting the papers hot off the press and when you do so, it has this strong and unique order to it. And I guess it's one of the reasons that for so many years, I loved reading an actual newspaper instead of looking at it on a computer so I could relive that sense. And you had a similar fascination to the smell

of a water fountain in a library that was distinctive like that smell of the newspaper. And I want to ask, how can we use our senses to evoke and create stronger memories by tuning into our senses like you and I have done. Oh, absolutely. And I think this is one of the most kind of delightful and powerful ways that we can tap into our senses. So, Bruce, Marcel, Bruce, when he took a bite of his Madeline cookie, is one of the most famous examples of somebody being prompted to have a memory because of a sensation.

And now those kinds of memories are called pristine memories. So that's when you smell the newspaper and then you're taken back to your youth. And we can do this in all different ways. So one thing that I did was I wrote a taste timeline. So I divided my life into four epics. And then I thought, well, what were the tastes that were either the most distinctive of that time

or that were like my favorites of that time, from when I was very young, when I was in law school. And it was funny how much though, just trying to think back to taste, brought back, just whole huge chunks of memories. And I didn't even have to go out and taste these things. I just had to think about the taste. I didn't have to go out and buy triskits.

I could just be like, oh, triskits, and that would completely remind me of those long car trips that I took as a kid. I created an album of now because what's familiar is easy to ignore. And I think now when I look back at pictures from long ago, I'm not interested in me in front of the Eiffel Tower. I'm interested in what did my bedroom look like?

What was I wearing? What did my parents living room look like? And so I went all around and took a picture of just like the most ordinary things, the inside of our refrigerator, our pantry, my closet, the street. And because I know that in the future, it's the sight of those very ordinary things. And then also by looking at our refrigerator

also brings back a lot of taste, it will be so evocative and just the process of doing it now helps me to solidify those memories. Another really fun thing, people love music, like you love music, there's a really fun site called the nostalgia machine and you can enter in a date like 1996 or whatever. And it will pull up all the most popular songs at that time and you can just click through them. And it is so fun. You just pick whatever kind of milestone years were for you. And you'll listen to a song

and you'll instantly be transported back to like your freshman year in college or whatever it is. And so it is, it's a very fun playful way to often, it'll help you remember memories that you forgot that you had, but then when you reach for them, they're right there. And so it's very in-living. Well, I'm going to have to use that when I do back to the 90s, get together at my house, because it would be a great way to generate a playlist. Yes. Oh, 100%. Yes, oh, 100%.

Well, another experiment that I did that was around smell was twofold. One as I was reading the book I happened to be visiting my parents house and It's so amazing that when you go back to your parents house or I am remembered of this day my grandparents house How there's this distinctive connection between the way it smells and your memories. Yes. And the other thing I did is we have something in St. Petersburg called this Saturday Morning Market. And it has all these food vendors around it. So there's tons of smells going on and I went there and I closed my eyes and I put my hands over my ears and I just tried to just put myself in the moment of just trying to smell all the smells. Yeah, that were around me.

And yeah, and I wanted to ask, why does's telling us everything that's going on around us. It's remarkable what kind of information it can convey. It's interesting of the senses, like there are different lengths from us or the different levels of intimacy. So with sight and hearing, these are things at a distance, then smell, it's a little bit closer. And then with taste and touch, it's very immediate.

And so smell is in that in between. And it's remarkable what you can walk into a room and you're like, oh, someone was baking a cake in here, maybe a half an hour ago. Somebody was smoking a cigarette. Somebody is wearing carnal flower perfume. One of the exercises I did for the book is I go to the Metropolitan Museum

every day. And the med has an extremely distinctive smell of hand sanitizer. And so I'll walk around and I'm like, wow, somebody just used the med's hand sanitizer because I'm just being an empty gallery and all of a sudden I'll be hit by the hand sanitizer. So you can tell that it's been raining. You can tell I have a friend you can tell if a TV was on. And so, yeah, so it is remarkable how much information it can give to us. I know, if it's Wednesday, I know that it's trash day on my New York City street, but I don't, I can be blindfolded and I would definitely know that it was Wednesday. But I love this idea of going to the farmers market and smelling it because even like an

ordinary grocery store, you realize like there's sort of the smell of being around the produce and there's a smell if you're near the refrigerated section. But of course, if you're in a farmer's market, it's much, there's much more going on because there's flowers, there's probably baked goods, there's the smell of cars going by, the smell of just being outside. That's a, I'm going to try that the next time I met a farmer's market. Well, and I tell you what I'm going to do. You've read up tomatoes earlier. I have a garden and we've got tomatoes coming up right now.

So I'm going to do that taste test of one that I've actually grown compared to one that I get in the store and see how different the two are. What a great idea. That would be a fun thing to do with friends is say, can you guess and how do people rank them? That's a great idea. That would be really fun. Because what was I hearing about? There was something where they were saying very commonly

people thought that one version was better than the other, but then when they tested it, people couldn't take, oh, you know what it was? It's the strata various violin. So the strata various violin is an incredibly famous violin that's supposed to have this amazing sound that's better than anything else. But then, okay, spoiler alert, you know where this is going,

they took a bunch of experts, and then they also had just like regular audience members rate the new violin to the strata various violin and they found out that people rated the new violin. It gave it a higher rating, but there's a magic to the strata various violin and a history there that affects the way we perceive sound it makes us feel like the sound is better. But it would be fascinating to know how much better is a homegrown tomato than the storebottomato. If at all, I would be fascinated to know that. Well, I'm going to use this next experiment to discuss not only taste but smell. And this is

an experiment that unintentionally happened to me. And it was unintentional because during COVID, I had the surreal experience of losing my taste and smell for six weeks. And it was so far gone that literally someone could have placed a rotten egg right next to me or could have poured me a cup of spoiled milk. And I would never have been able to tell. It was completely gone. But I'm not. I'll tell you one thing, it made me eat more healthily because since I couldn't taste the food, I was just, I didn't care what I put in. So I was putting in many more vegetables than I typically would have done in my diet, drinking a lot more water, but it was uncanny because you didn't

realize until it happened how much, how non-those senses and how much, for me, I love food, I love cooking and it made it cooking completely unenjoyable because I couldn't smell the fragrances that were coming from the kitchen. And so it was a real bummer there for about six weeks and it was going on for so long. I was like, am I ever going to get it back?

But I'm not the only one who experienced this. Millions of people had this experience during COVID. No, it's interesting because at least in the West, people often considered smell as sort of a bonus sense. It's kind of like nice to have it, but it doesn't really matter. But I think that at post-COVID, because people either did lose their sense of smell early, I think no people who lost their sense of smell and heard about it, people have become much more aware of

how much the sense of smell contributes to our sense of well-being and connection. Like you say, even apart from not being able to taste the food, just the process of cooking, an activity that you enjoyed wasn't fun anymore. But it's interesting how you said that you ate more healthily, because one thing they find when people lose their sense of smell is that some people lose weight because food is less interesting, but then some people gain weight

because they can't get satisfied, and they keep seeking. So it's a very complicated thing, and I'm so happy to hear that, I mean, six weeks is a long time, but I know some people who really have not recovered their sense of smell like even months and months later. So I'm so happy to hear that didn't come back correctly because you hear about some people who where it's slightly rewired or things don't exactly batch up or there's sort of something smell bad that didn't smell bad before. What's your experience of how it came back? Mine was really weird. All my I went through the COVID feeling bad for maybe 48 hours and then I still had taste and smell and it was three or

four days after that. I just all of a sudden it was like a light switch went off and they were off. And then when the six weeks or so came, it was like a light switch turned back on. Oh, and all of a sudden, they just re-emerged. And I think probably at first it was subtle, but when you haven't had them in that long and you can start sensing again, it felt more than it probably was, but I feel like I have a lot. What was the first thing you smell that you were like, Oh, I can smell again. What was do you remember what it was? I always take my dog on a morning walk and I could smell his urine.

Oh, maybe not the first most romantic thing. No, I'd be like a cup of coffee. No, I wish. But I'm sure you were like, I'm very happy to smell the smell. Well, take it. I don't want to leave this whole smell and taste without having you discuss the secret behind ketchup. And while listener will never taste it again

in the same way. The tomato is extraordinarily popular across the world and ketchup is very popular. And Hines ketchup is in the same way. The tomato is extraordinarily popular across the world. And ketchup is very popular. And Heinz ketchup is in the United States as an as popular brand of ketchup. And if you really sit down and give your full attention to tasting ketchup, you will understand why. Tetchup is one of the very rare things

that has all five basic tastes. It's sweet, it's salty, it's sour, it's bitter, and it's umami. And after I learned this if I catch up, I was like, well, what else does that? And I couldn't think of anything else that had all five. You can get to four, but it's very hard to get to five. So like the margarita has four, but it doesn't have umami. But if you taste, and then when I had a taste party with my friends where we like tasted varieties of apples and chocolate. And one of the things I did is had them taste ketchup. And one of my friends said if I didn't know that this was ketchup, I would think that this was some kind of rare, extremely expensive condiment because when you really focus on the flavor it is so complex and it goes through all these stages and it has this great texture and

this great color because it's so ubiquitous we take it for granted but there's a reason that it's so ubiquitous it's because it's a secret ingredient and a lot of popular foods where you might not expect to find it and so this is something where the ketchup is magic it really is fun to just taste it and realize, wow, I've been using it my whole life and I never really sat down to see what it was I was experiencing. Well, I am so anal about my ketchup

that I can only use hines and I can only use the simply ketchup. I mean, if someone puts any other brand, I'm like, that's not catch up. Right. Even Hines is other lines because some are too sweet for me and et cetera. It's so interesting when you think about it. Well, it has that blend. I mean, maybe that's what you're responding to is it has that complexity because it has all five. Maybe the one that tastes too sweet doesn't have that bitter. And so it's you, it feels too sweet and it doesn't have that the depth that you want in your catch up. Now, you know what? Well, earlier in the conversation, Gretchen, you brought up

transcendence. And this is something that I am really fascinated about. And I've had a whole bunch of people, probably many Scopberry Kaufman, Dacker, Keltner, David Yaden, David Vago, on to explore it further. But I just spoke to Dacker the other day. And he has this new book out called, Ah, and in it, he has this discovery that we think of Ah as like looking at the Grand Canyon

or experiencing great things, but he found that the way most people experience it is through morality gestures that can bring awe about, such as watching another person who is showing kindness or gratitude towards someone else. But reading your book, I also discovered that sense of touch also brings us closer to transcendence. How does it do so?

One of the ways that we can make connection with transcendence is by actually touching something. And when you look at the, this is across the world throughout time, that people want something to hold. They want something to buy. They want something to collect. They want something that they can, or they can touch something that's sacred or transcendent. So if you think about the pilgrimages, people would buy relics that they would bring home. Or even in our own lives, like often if there's like a big milestone party, you might have some kind of keepsake object. That's like a way for people to hang on to something. There is something concrete about it that allows us to

put this transcendent impulse into something that we can actually physically hold. I was just in Europe and a big practice there and I think maybe they do it in the United States now too is they'll be a bridge and people will put a lock on it. They're called love locks. And then sometimes you'll put your initials on it or something for a couple to represent like their love. And I think, well, these are gestures where people want a concrete thing to represent something. So how do I represent to my husband?

I'll love you for better for worse. I'll love you forever. Yeah, I can say that. But then there's something about going to a bridge in Paris and putting a lock on a bridge where I feel like, oh, I've made that real in some way. And so like to the point where these cities are like, please do not put these love locks because they're breaking our bridges because people have such a strong impulse to do these kinds of things. I think it's a human impulse. into a found to represent your desire for good fortune. There's something very powerful about

turning this transcendent ideal into something physical that we can touch and hold and carry with us. Well, I first saw them when I was in Paris, but recently in San Francisco and happened to go to the Golden Gate Bridge and on the east side of the bridge, they actually do the same thing on these chain-linked fences. So we do it in the United States now, too. I think once that idea got into the world, people were like, yes, I want to do this. It's like rubbing a statue for good luck. More and more, you'll see that a statue

will have one place rubbed away because there's just this desire to be like, I want to touch this thing and I want good luck and I want to do that through gesture and through touch. I think that it's a very powerful impulse. And so once that idea gets into the world, people find it irresistible. Well, I have one last question for you.

And I read a book different than most do. Probably most people open the book and they look at the beginning. I go to the book and I look at the end and then I go to the beginning. Because I love to read the acknowledgments and things like that. But surprisingly, when I got to the back of your book, I discovered that you had created a five-centre self-portrait. And I was hoping you could discuss what it is and maybe how a listener can create their own.

Yeah, this is a really fun exercise. So as part of writing the book, I had written a five-centre-sus portrait of my husband, which is a great way to sort of really make concrete your memories and your associations of someone. So for each of the five senses, I wrote down five things I remembered from him and I loved doing this. And then I handed in my book and my editor said,

well, I think for the about the author, you should write one of yourself. And I was like, that is so funny because I just wrote this entire book about the five senses. And it never occurred to me to try to sum up myself in a five senses portrait. And so for myself, for each of the five senses, I wrote down five things that I associate most with myself.

And this was a really fun exercise. And I really recommend this to anyone. And there's a lot of ways you can use this exercise. So you can use it as something for self discovery and memory, the way by doing it about yourself. You can do it as someone else as a tribute to them or maybe you give it to them as a gift. Nothing makes you feel more seen than somebody writing one of these for you. I just, my in-laws just went through them, had a big milestone and wedding anniversary. So,

for my toast, I wrote five senses portrait of the two of them. You can do it to help you remember someone who has died. I've talked to people who have done this to like really hold on to the memories and then also to convey the essence of someone to maybe a child who was too young to remember a beloved family member. What I like about this is it's sort of like everyday creativity because it feels very creative. It's hard. Like you've got to work on it for like days and let these memories come to you. It's really fun to pick the best ones. You can reminisce with other people to see what you're going to come up with. But in the end, it's one page of writing. It's not one of these things where you need

like a lot of skills or a lot of supplies to create something. So it's a really, really fun exercise that's very flexible depending on which way you wanna take it. Well, I think that's the next experiment I wanna try. Oh, good. Well, Gretchen, you're very discoverable, but for the listener who's out there,

what is the easiest way for them to learn all things Gretchen Ruben? Yeah, go to my website, GretchenRuben.com. You can find everything there about my books, or you can listen to my podcast, happier with Gretchen Ruben, where I talk about happiness and the five senses and good habits every week with my sister, Elizabeth Cruk. If you're interested in your neglected sense, I just have a new quiz called what's your neglected sense because for a lot of us, if we go to our neglected sense, that gives us an opportunity for a new source of comfort or energy or pleasure because it's something that we've sort of overlooked. And you can find that at gretchenrubin.com slash quiz or just go to the website. And I'm all over social media as Gretchen Rubin. And I love to connect with listeners and readers with their own insights and questions and observations and resources. I feel like the world is my research assistant

because I always get so many great resources and observations from other people. So I love to connect. Well, Gretchen, it is always such an honor to have you on the show. And I've for the past two weeks just been looking so forward to doing it. So thank you so much for coming on again.

It was really an honor to have you. Oh, well, thank you so much. I so enjoyed the conversation. I am so honored to have had Gretchen Ruben back on the podcast. And I wanted to thank Gretchen and Crown Books for the privilege of coming on the show. Links to all things Gretchen will be in the show notes at passionstruck.com. Please consider using the website links if you purchase any of the books from the guests that we feature on the show.

All proceeds go to supporting the show. Videos are on YouTube, both at John Armiles and our Clips channel at Passionstruck Clips. Avertiser deals and discount codes are in one community in place at passionstruck.com slash deals. I'm on LinkedIn and you can also find me at John R. Miles at both Instagram and Twitter, where I provide daily doses of inspiration. And if you want to know how I book Gaslight Gretchen Ribbon, it's because of my network. Go out there and build yours before you need it. You're about to hear a preview of the Passionstruck podcast interview that I did with Julianne Holt Lundstead, professor of psychology and neuroscience at Brigham Young University.

Dr. Lungholt-Sted's work is focused on the long-term health effects of social connection, and her work has also been seminal in the recognition of social isolation and loneliness as early risk factors for early mortality. We often use the term's isolation and loneliness interchangeably, and that's because they often go hand in isolation and loneliness interchangeably. And that's because they often go hand in hand, but not always. The one thing that I want to emphasize that I think is a common misconception is that people assume that one might be more important than the other. And the evidence does not support that. They are both important

for our health and well being and both significantly predict risk for premature mortality. And so even if you are surrounded by others and you still feel lonely, you're still at risk. Even if you're isolated, but don't feel lonely, you're still

at risk. Remember, we rise by lifting others. So share this episode with those that you love and care about. And if you found today's episode useful, then please share it with somebody who could use today's advice. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so that you can live what you listen. And until next time, live life, Ash and Strut. Music