Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Gretchen Rubin on the Key to Happiness Is Knowing Yourself EP 134

Starting point is 00:00:00 coming up next on the Passion Struck Podcast. I definitely think there's a very important role for negative experiences. Sometimes people sort of act as if you're thinking about how to be happier, that your aim is to have a perfectly happy life where you're at a 10 on the one to 10 scale, 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

Starting point is 00:00:16 That is not possible, and that would not even be a good life. Because obviously there are many times when we want to feel sorrow and grief and regret and guilt and break this indignation and a whole host of negative emotions. Negative emotions are very important because they're like the big flashing warning sign that something needs to change. Welcome to PassionStruct. Hi, I'm your host, John Armiles, and on the show, we decipher the secrets tips and guidance of the world's most inspiring people and turn

Starting point is 00:00:46 their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you. Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself. If you're new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays. We have long-form interviews the rest of the week with guest ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries and athletes. Now, let's go out there and become PassionStruck.

Starting point is 00:01:18 Hello, everyone, and welcome back to episode 134 of PassionStruck, recently ranked by FeedSpot as one of the most inspirational podcasts in the world. Thank you to all of you who come back weekly to listen and learn how to live better, be better, and impact the world. In case you missed our episodes from last week, I interviewed astronaut Nicole Stott on her journey from not only being an astronaut, but also an Aquanaut artist and polar explorer. I also interviewed former WNBA player Anoniel about her experience of reaching the heights of winning the WNBA

Starting point is 00:01:56 championship with the Sacramento Monarchs to now being a podcast host, Coach, and Cybersecurity leader. And tomorrow we have a special episode with Dr. Michelle Seger. And we are discussing the launch of her new book, The Joy Choice. It is such an amazing interview just like today's. I also wanted to say thank you so much for your ratings and reviews.

Starting point is 00:02:18 We now have over 7,000 of them on iTunes alone. If you love today's episode, we would so appreciate it if you gave it a five-star rating and sharing it with your friends and family members. I know we and our guests also love to hear comments from listeners about our episodes. Now, let's talk about today's guests who really needs no introduction at all. Gretchen Riven. Gretchen is one of today's most influential and thought-provoking observers of happiness and human nature. She's known for her ability to distill and convey complex ideas with humor and clarity in a way that is so accessible for a wide audience. She's the author of many different books, including The Blockbuster, York Times bestsellers, the Happiness Project,

Starting point is 00:03:06 the four tendencies, and better than before. She has just an enormous readership, both online and in print, and her books have sold over three and a half million copies worldwide in more than 30 different languages. On her podcast, Happiness with Gretchen Ruben, she discusses Happiness and Good Habits with her sister Elizabeth Kraft. happiness with Gretchen Rubin. She discusses happiness and good habits with her sister Elizabeth Kraft. And in today's interview we discuss her life lessons from clerking for the Supreme Court. How during that clerkship she realized that being an attorney was not her life goal and instead it was to become an author.

Starting point is 00:03:39 How the study of human nature became her life's purpose and her suggestions on the keys to knowing oneself. The key difference between happiness and being happy, her views on how negative or peak experiences influence our happiness, the importance of decluttering our lives and how doing so brings us more joy. The importance of building healthy habits and the key role they play in creating happiness as well as so much more.

Starting point is 00:04:05 Thank you for choosing PassionStruck and choosing me to be your hosting guide on your journey to creating an intentional life. Now, let that journey begin. So, it's static to welcome Richard Rubinen to the Passion Start podcast. Welcome, Rich. I'm so happy to be talking to you. Thanks for having me. Being a Supreme Court clerk is one of the most prestigious things you can do in the law field and you got to do it with Sandra Day O'Connor. So I wanted you to talk about that experience and how has it impacted the rest of your life.

Starting point is 00:04:43 Yes, it was such an honor to be able to clerk for Justice O'Connor. She's an extraordinary person and the Supreme Court is an extraordinary institution. People disagree with the philosophies, the judicial philosophies of the different justices, but certainly when I was there, one of the things that really struck me was that it was people who were doing their duty with the utmost seriousness and the most tension to a level of excellence and rigor. And justice is such an important value. It was really reassuring to me as a citizen and as a young person to see just how seriously

Starting point is 00:05:21 everybody took this and how many people were participating and trying to make sure that things were done at a very high level. And again, you may disagree with someone's beliefs or their philosophy, but I certainly felt that people were very sincere in their determination to do the right thing they saw according to sort of the constitution and the United States. And one of the things that was funny about it that when I got there was, it turns out that when you talk to a justice of the Supreme Court, that's what you call them, you call them justice.

Starting point is 00:05:52 Like you might say to a doctor, doctor, what's wrong with me? You call them justice. And this took me weeks to get accustomed to because I just thought it was so astonishing that we would refer to them by the kind of the value that they were meant to uphold. And so I just thought it was so astonishing that we would refer to them by the kind of the value that they were meant to uphold. And so I just thought it was very striking that you would literally refer to somebody as justice. So it's a big responsibility. So I guess it's

Starting point is 00:06:15 probably good for them to be reminded, hey, keep your eyes on the goal here, man, we got to get justice. So yeah, it was really an extraordinary opportunity. I felt very fortunate to be able to serve in that way. Well, having that foundation really opens the door for you to do a tremendous amount of things in the legal field, but instead of that, you chose not soon after that to stop practicing law and to focus on being an author, what was the motivation behind that? Was it just something you felt deep inside that writing was your calling

Starting point is 00:06:53 or was it something else? Well, it's interesting because what happened to me was I was working in the Supreme Court as a clerk and that's definitely one of the best jobs that you could have as a young person in law. And it was an extraordinary opportunity. But at that time, I got this idea. Really, I didn't even think of it as writing a book. I just became very preoccupied with this subject that to me was Power, Money, Fame, Sex,

Starting point is 00:07:19 which to me seemed like one big subject. And I often get very preoccupied with subjects, and I'll do tons of research and writing and take notes. Sometimes it turns into something and often a desert. So this was something that was very familiar to me that I'd get very focused on a subject. But I got deeper and deeper and deeper into it. And finally, it occurred to me, well,

Starting point is 00:07:40 I'm doing the kind of things that a person would do if they were going to write a book. And then I thought, well, maybe I could be the person who wrote that book. And I went out to a bookstore and got a book called Something Like How to Write and Sell Your Nonfiction Book Proposal. And I just followed the directions. And so for me, it was less, sometimes when people make big shifts, it's about leaving something. Like they know they don't want to do something. So then they figure out what they want to do. For me, it was almost like this one particular project became so compelling that it was irresistible. And I just, I was pulled so strongly toward it, and I feel like in a way that I was very fortunate,

Starting point is 00:08:17 because I think it's much easier to know what you want and go for it than to just be like, well, I know what I don't want. Now I have to figure out what I do want. That's a more open-ended question. I just got to the point where I thought, should I get another law job and do this on the side? Like, how should I proceed? But I decided that for me, I would rather fail as a writer than succeed as a lawyer at this point. So I need to just take my shot,

Starting point is 00:08:40 give it all I have, succeed or fail, and then reevaluate. So that's what I did. And that became my first book, Power of Money, Fame, Sex, a user's guide, and then I've been a professional writer ever since. And in case the audience doesn't know, your first book that became a New York Times by seller of the Happiness Project was actually,

Starting point is 00:09:02 I think your fourth book. Yes, exactly. Like many people I worked for 10 years to become an overnight sensation. Many people assumed that was my first book. No, it was not my first book. So how did you come to the understanding that human nature and the understanding of human nature would become your purpose that would drive you to produce all the books, speeches, everything else that you've done. Well, it's interesting because I sort of was deep into it before I understood that that was the big linking theme. I'd written my book, Paramani Bames, X, I wrote biographies, one of Winston Churchill, one of Jonathan Kennedy, and then I wrote

Starting point is 00:09:42 a book about happiness, a book about habit formation, and at some point along the way, exactly, as you say, I realized that what I was really interested in was human nature. So I was studying Churchill and Kennedy because these were sort of larger than life figures. Like, you could study them more easily because they were so gigantic. There was such a vast record. And they had been put in such extreme situations that sort of highlighted a lot of things that maybe are harder to see in everyday life.

Starting point is 00:10:14 And I read novels all the time, I read memoirs all the time, biographies all the time, history all the time. And I realized that was what interested me most and what I was really most interested in trying to understand is like, who are we, why do we do what we do? How do we change if we wanna change? And this just to me is endlessly fascinating

Starting point is 00:10:35 and sort of everything sheds a light on it. So that makes everything in the world interesting to me as well. So through all this research and writing that you've done, what are some of the keys that you've found to truly knowing oneself? This is the funny thing because you think, well, what's easier than knowing myself and just hanging out with myself all day long?

Starting point is 00:10:57 But it's such a challenge to know ourselves is the great challenge of our lives. I think one of the things to remember, and this is something that it took me a while to realize every year that passes, I'm more struck by how true it is, that there is no magic one-size-fits-all solution. We each have to decide for ourselves. We all have our own temperament, our own values, our own interests, our own nature. We really have to decide for ourselves, like, what is going to make me happier? What's going to work for me? And I think it's can be really hard to know ourselves because it's very easy to get distracted by what other people want us to be or what we wish we were or what we assume we are

Starting point is 00:11:37 because we assume everybody is a certain way and we kind of don't even notice that we're not that way. And so I have developed some, I've got a bazillion questions, but there's some questions that I think are particularly intriguing in helping us to know ourselves. One is, what do you lie about? Because when we lie often, it's because our life doesn't reflect our values. So a friend of mine lied about how often he

Starting point is 00:12:03 wrote his bike to work. Now, there's no rule saying that you have to write your bike to work. And he was lying about it often he wrote his bike to work. Now, there's no rule saying that you have to write your bike to work, and he was lying about it because he had this idea of how he wanted to behave, but he wasn't really doing it. So his lies showed that, well, he really thinks it would be valuable to bike to work more often. And one way or the other, stop lying about it.

Starting point is 00:12:24 Another interesting question is to say, whom do you envy? Envy is a very uncomfortable emotion. Often we don't even like to admit to ourselves that we're feeling envy, but when somebody has something that we wish we had, we experience envy and that can be very helpful because if you think, oh, I'm really envious of my sister

Starting point is 00:12:43 who travels all the time, well, that tells me maybe I wish that I could travel more. And maybe I haven't admitted that to myself. And another question is a more fun question. And this is the question of what did you do for fun when you were 10 years old? Because many adults have kind of lost track of what they find fun. They're so focused on work.

Starting point is 00:13:02 And they're so focused on like, what's fun for the whole family? That they lose touch with what's actually fun for them. A lot of times what you did for fun, when you were 10, whether that's wandering through a park with your dog or making things with your hands or making up songs on the guitar or writing limericks, whatever you did for fun when

Starting point is 00:13:27 you were 10 years old. It's probably something you would enjoy as an adult. Are you a morning person or night person? So many people try to cram themselves into the model, being a morning person. I feel like 30% of the population is night people. It's mostly a function of genetics and age. And if you're at your most creative and productive later in the day, the idea that you're gonna get up at 7 a.m. and work on your PhD thesis or go for a run before work, you're just not setting yourself up for success. You have to think about, well, what's true for you?

Starting point is 00:13:56 Even for something like what's your chronotype? So I think thinking about knowing ourselves is just absolutely essential if you wanna to create a happier lives for ourselves. I think you're definitely right with all of that and those are some great questions to ask yourself, I especially like the one about going back to when you're 9, 10, 11 years old and really what makes you feel most alive as you get further in life if you refer back to it is probably somewhere close to

Starting point is 00:14:26 where your passion should be for what you're doing. Yes, exactly. So that begs the question, what is the difference between happiness and being happier? Well, as you pointed out, I started my career in law and we spend an entire semester arguing about the definition of contract. And happiness is an even more elusive concept. They're like 15, 17 academic definitions of happiness. So I never try to define happiness because for some people it's joy or peace or contentment or fulfillment or satisfaction, bliss, peace. So it's sort of like, okay, whatever is happiness for you,

Starting point is 00:15:06 we don't have to agree, but we have a sense of what it is. And I think that it's much easier to think about being happier. So if you think, well, if I did this in a week in a month and a year, would I be happier, I think that's much clearer for people to understand and to think like, well, will this help me achieve happiness? Because it's like, what does that even mean? How do you get there? How do you say there? But being happier, it's more about a process. It's more about moving in a direction. And like, my podcast is called Happier with Gretchen Rubin, because I really think, we should think about,

Starting point is 00:15:40 like, well, how could we be happier? Because that just feels more attainable and understandable than happiness, which I find very hard to even think about what happiness is. It's because it's such a complicated thing. I really love the podcast and I think it's special that you do it with your younger sister. It's something I might contemplate with one of my siblings. Oh, it's so fun. But I saw on the show that you have episodes like that and then you also have something called Little Happiness.

Starting point is 00:16:16 And if the listener hasn't had a chance to check out your podcast, which I highly encourage they do, what's the difference between the two formats? So a happy with Bretchen Rubin is a weekly show. As you said, I do it with my sister, Elizabeth, who's a TV show runner in Hollywood. And we talk about very practical ideas about how to be happier, try this at home, suggestions, happiness, hacks, we have interviews sometimes.

Starting point is 00:16:43 So that's very practical. And that's like a 30, 40 minute show. A little happier is, and that's on Wednesday, a little happier is every Monday, and that's like a two to four minute episode. That's just me, and in an ITELA story about something related to happiness. So, and some of these fall into like themes because they're related to my preoccupations.

Starting point is 00:17:05 So one of my preoccupations is would people know the right thing to say? You know, I think so often, we just want so badly to know what to say. And I love an example where someone finds just the right words. And so if I come across a great example, like I'll tell a little story about that, or maybe I read a passage in a book that's really striking to me because it makes some point. So these are stories that are kind of teaching stories because they are making a point about how we can be happier in sort of a compact story.

Starting point is 00:17:44 It's kind of my version of EZOP's fables, I guess, except it's people talking, not animals, but they have sort of a message, I would say, a point, a happiness point to them. And they're short, very short. Yeah, I got to listen to a few of them, and I really like the format and the way you use it. In fact, it's something I might adopt here

Starting point is 00:18:04 on this podcast as well. Oh, good. Because I do a momentum Friday episode every Friday, which is also me talking about a lesson, but it's typically between 15 to 25 minutes long. And as you know, being a writer and having to write the script for all these things, it becomes definitely a weekly task to have to write this script for all these things. It becomes definitely a weekly task.

Starting point is 00:18:27 They have to get that out. So what are some of the lessons that you and your sister talked about or questions from the show that the audience might want to think about? Well, one thing that we noticed, and I certainly I wrote a book called Better Than Before about Habit habit formation. So I was talking to people all the time about how they felt about New Year's resolutions. And what I found is that many people do not like New Year's resolutions. Either they feel trapped by New Year's resolutions so they don't like to make them or they feel discouraged about New Year's resolutions because they've made them and broken them in the past. Or they're like, why would I keep a New Year's resolution? That seems arbitrary.

Starting point is 00:19:06 So one thing that my sister Alyssa then I came up with as a way to help people achieve aims, set intentions, which I know is something that you're very focused on. But maybe in a way that felt more playful or more flexible than the New Year's resolution is to do like a 22 for 22 list. So every year this update, so next year it'll be 23 for 2023. So you make a list of 22 things that you want to do.

Starting point is 00:19:33 Now they could be, you can use the list any way you want. You could have it be all 22 pleasant or fun things if you need accountability to even get yourself to do things you want to do. You could have a mix of like stretch aims and and then like fun things. So you might have 11 things that are more challenging or and then 11 things that are more fun like you know go to 22 ice cream stores or something. You can play off the word 22 like I want to read 22 novels. I want to do 22 new hikes. Sometimes people use the number 22 in really fun want to read 22 novels. I want to do 22 new hikes. Sometimes people use the number 22 in really fun ways. Like somebody said they wanted to start going to bed at 2200 hours. And so, or like I decided to take, I wanted to experiment with taking naps. So I take a 22-minute nap every day that I can. And that's been a really so. Because

Starting point is 00:20:22 one of my 22 for 22 goals was to try napping and so I tried napping for 22 minutes and and it's clearly an arbitrary number but that's part of kind of the whimsy of it is like oh just have fun with 22 and what we find is that people really find this kind of energizing it kind of listens up their imagination, and yet it does help them set those intentions. And there's a PDF job, surprise, surprise, of meeting those intentions. And so, but again, for people who feel turned off by the New York Resolution, which is a very traditional way, very familiar way, this is a way to kind of open it up.

Starting point is 00:21:20 People will even do things like they'll have, like the last one will be something like cross something off the list, or at least something'll have like the last one will be something like cross something off the list. Um, or at least something blank like add this one later. So it's meant to be something to have fun with to evolve over the course of the year and to make and then and then also the idea is like, I mean, a list of them I have been doing this for several years and neither one of us has ever checked off everything from our list. We've had things that have rolled over three, four years. So it's not perfection. It's about getting happier, making progress. We will be right back to our interview with Gretchen Rubin. I would like to emphasize that this podcast is part of my desire and effort

Starting point is 00:22:00 to bring zero cost information to the general public. And keeping with that theme, I would like to thank the sponsors of today's episode. This year, one of my goals is maybe to try to revive my Spanish for an upcoming trip to Puerto Rico. With Babel, the Language and Learning app that sold more than 10 million subscriptions, not only is learning a new language fund, the whole Babel process is addictively fun. It's fast, it's easy. Babel teaches bite-sized language lessons for real-world use. And I use my daily morning walks to digest Babel's 15-minute lessons,

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Starting point is 00:24:24 That's drinktrad.com passion struck for $30 off. Please consider those who support the show and make it possible and free for our listeners. And I know all those links can be difficult to remember, so we will have one easy location you can go to at passionstruck.com slash deals. Now back to my interview with Gretchen Ribbon. Well, one of the previous

Starting point is 00:24:45 guests I had on my podcast is a lady named Victoria Hanpreys who lives over in the United Kingdom. And she's a polar explorer has done all these things, but when she turned 50, she did something similar.

Starting point is 00:24:57 She decided to create the 50 at 50. It was a bucket list, but she purposely put things on it that were going to be difficult for her to want to do, such as having to spend a night at homeless shelter or volunteering in ways that she'd never volunteered before, because she felt it's easy for me to want to jump out of a plane or to mountain climb, but when you purposely put yourself in discomfort, she found it to be more

Starting point is 00:25:26 rewarding. So, thought I'd mention that, and I also think it's a very smart idea that you only nap for 22 minutes because if you get much over 30, you've got the opportunity to put yourself in REM sleep, which is when if you wake up then that's when you're going to feel pretty sluggish. Yeah. So, I did a lot of research. There's so much research about napping. I encourage anybody who's considering napping. It's like a whole world of napped research. Yes, we want to take a short nap.

Starting point is 00:25:54 Not a long nap, but I'm a big, big conference for the nap. There are several newer authors who are out there, most notably Mark Manson who argues that we should stop finding the positives in life and instead find happiness by focusing on the tolerance and acceptance of negative experiences. Based on your research, is that something that you believe is accurate, or do you think it's more in the lines of what Maslow said that it's the peak experiences in life that truly bring happiness? Well, I definitely think there's a very important role

Starting point is 00:26:36 for negative experiences. Sometimes people sort of act as if you're thinking about how to be happier, that your aim is to have a perfectly happy life where you're at a 10 on the one to 10 scale 24 hours a day, seven days a week. That is not possible and that would not even be a good life because obviously there are many times when we want to feel sorrow and grief and regret and guilt and righteousness and indignation and a whole host of negative emotions.

Starting point is 00:27:02 Negative emotions are very important because they are like the big flashing warning sign that something needs to change. For what maybe we're not behaving with right action, maybe we're seeing others suffer, maybe we're just bored out of our minds and we need to figure out like what to do about it. So negative emotions are really important. And we have a natural inclination to focus

Starting point is 00:27:25 on the negative. That's called the negativity bias. And this is why journalists will say if it bleeds it leads, it's why if you get a performance review and you get five compliments in one criticism, you walk out thinking about the criticism, we are just more attracted to negative information because it's more valuable to us kind of from an evolutionary point of view. That's the stuff that can save us from danger. I think it's kind of a false choice to say focus solely on the positive or dull deeply into the negative. I think it's more about understanding that every life includes a wide range of experiences. I mean, I do think that if we have an opportunity to be happier, like, why not? I look around the world, starting with myself.

Starting point is 00:28:04 I got a lot of low hanging fruit here. I've got things that I can do without spending a lot of time energy or money that I know are going to make me happy. I know that if I stay up until 2am, binge watching madmen, it's not going to make me happier. Like, I know that, so I can act on that belief. I think that both are very, very important. And that it's not about sort of deciding that, you know,

Starting point is 00:28:26 one should be elevated or crowd out the other in terms of our energy and attention, but to try to understand how to learn from the negative and also how to amplify what is positive so that we can be, our lives can be as happy as they can be, given our nature, given our circumstances. There are some things within our control. There are some things that are not within our control. But for the things that are within our control, I think it's worth working on them.

Starting point is 00:28:54 Well, that's great. And I think there's so much to be said for having both experiences in your life because oftentimes the negative experiences we learn the most from. Oh yeah. Benjamin Franklin said something like experience keeps a dear school but a fool will learn and no other and it's like oh yeah that is true. And my mother once said, sometimes the things that go wrong make the best memories. And I think that's true too. Sometimes it's that family trip that went all wrong that everybody is laughing about for years later.

Starting point is 00:29:30 Where is the fun family trips? It's hard to remember what happened. Well, prior to our interview, I put out to my audience that I was going to be interviewing you and I got a lot of response and I asked some of the audience if there was a question they would like for me to ask you. And so one of the questions I got a lot of response and I asked some of the audience if there was a question they would like for me to ask you. And so one of the questions I got was if there are many problems in your life that you need to work on,

Starting point is 00:29:53 how does one identify the priorities? Ooh, what a great question. So I think that there are a couple ways to think about this, depending on what perspective you want to take. One, I think is start with your own body, because our physical experience always colors our emotional experience, and it's very hard sometimes to do bigger things, more transcendent things when you just are struggling with your physical self.

Starting point is 00:30:20 So I think things like making sure that you get enough sleep, most adults need at least seven hours of sleep. People tell themselves that they've trained themselves to get by on less, but actually research shows that people are quite impaired. Getting some exercise, you do not need to train for the marathon. If you on the podcast, we talked about walk 20 and 20. This was our challenge for listeners in 2020. And what research shows is that if you walk 20 minutes a day, if you start out being completely sedentary, you will get this huge boost in health, immune function, energy, mood,

Starting point is 00:30:55 so getting some movement in your life. Also, if you have trouble sleeping, a lot of people who are struggling have trouble sleeping, either they can't fall asleep or they wake up in the middle of the night with racing thoughts, people who exercise sleep more deeply and fall asleep faster. Getting morning light, research is showing that their circadian rhythm influences the body in ways that we're only beginning to understand. Morning light helps reset the body clock, helps set you up for energy and focus. So if you get a 20 minute walk first thing in the morning, oh my gosh, you're already well on your way to feeling more energetic happier,

Starting point is 00:31:29 not letting yourself get too hungry or thirsty. A lot of times people, they skip breakfast, they skip lunch, and then they're so hungry, they can't take time to have a healthy meal, they're just like grabbing whatever is in a crinkly bag. And strange, this isn't true for everyone, but in terms of physical comfort and feeling good in your surroundings and kind of having that sense of physical comfort, outer order, I have found that to a surprising degree, outer order contributes to inner calm and energy

Starting point is 00:31:58 for most people just getting control over the stuff of your life will help you feel more in control of your life generally. So if you're wondering where to start, just like with these very basic things, might give you a boost in energy and kind of a feeling of self mastery that then could make it easier to do other things. And what I would say the other thing to think about is relationships. Relationships are a key to happiness. When researchers study people who are happier, they see that we have to have enduring bonds

Starting point is 00:32:28 with other people. We need to be able to confide. We need to be able to feel like we belong. We need to be able to get support. And just as important, we need to give support. So if you're thinking about things to do to make yourself happier, thinking about deepening your relationships or broadening your relationships is a great place to start. Whether that's reconnecting with your friends, maybe connecting again with an old friend that you've sort of drifted away from, doing work to repair a relationship, which you feel like it's

Starting point is 00:32:56 kind of not working that well, taking time for fun family traditions, whatever relationships you feel, maybe you're going to get a dog. There's so many ways to work in a relationship, but this really is something that is crucial for happiness. Loneliness is a big problem right now all around the world. But now more than ever, it's something that researchers are studying. It has terrible health consequences for us and terrible happiness consequences. So I think that working on your body and working on your relationships are two great places to start.

Starting point is 00:33:30 Once those are kind of, are you're in a better place with those, then I think it starts to feel easier to work on other things that you might also have as priorities, but you have to start somewhere. So I would start with those two areas. I think that's great advice. One of my favorite chapters out of the Happiness Project was chapter two where you talk about love.

Starting point is 00:33:53 And I've recently finished the book Transcend. If you haven't heard of it, it's basically a new take of applying Maslow's hierarchy to modern life. The author really goes into the importance of love and how it's misstated that importance through our life and he talks about beloved and delug etc. But I thought your chapter on making your marriage as solid as it could be from that, your friendships formed, your outings formed, up everything else was a really good introspection. I also like your message about doing that walk first thing in the morning. One of the most transformational books I've read was 5am club by Rob and

Starting point is 00:34:38 Sharma and in that he puts out that one of the first things you should do when you wake up is exercise. So since I have adopted that, I can tell you, I get right out of bed at 5 a.m. and the first thing I do is walk my dog and it totally changes your perspective of the day and how you feel and the energy that you have. So I think those are some great points.

Starting point is 00:35:02 It's interesting with the dog because research shows that people who have dogs, that that's make us happier, and it also makes us healthier. And people who have dogs tend to be get more exercise than people who don't have dogs, even people who go to the gym. I'm because if you have a dog, I mean, that's exactly what I do. My husband and I, we take our dog for a walk first thing, and it's a really great. You get out in the weather like it is tonight. It's a nice way to start today. I agree.

Starting point is 00:35:27 In the Happiness Project, you say that you didn't want to reject your life. You wanted to change your life without changing your life. Can you explain that? I think people love stories of like massive transformation. And I certainly love those stories to people who sort of go on a huge adventure, but I am not a very adventurous person. Also, I had a lot of responsibility.

Starting point is 00:35:51 I really couldn't go on a big adventure, even if I wanted to, and I didn't want to. I really loved my life, and I just wanted to find more happiness within my life. And I think one of the things, when I started my happiness project that was an aim was I wanted to have more appreciation for what I already had because I felt like so often, it's so easy to take our lives for granted. And I had all the elements of a happy life. It was not a person who was starting from a place of deep sadness or kind of chaos.

Starting point is 00:36:23 I was pretty happy. And I just felt like I wanted to live up to that. I wanted to appreciate that within the bounds of my ordinary day. And I think in that way, I think I'm like a lot of people. I think a lot of people are pretty happy with their lives. But they see that there are things that they can do to make themselves happier. And not things that take a lot of time, energy or money, but things that they can incorporate in their ordinary day to live up to their values for themselves,

Starting point is 00:36:52 contribute to the world, make themselves happier within normal life, within ordinary life. I should say, whatever your ordinary life is for you, of course, we all have very, very different ordinary lives. But I think the idea that the only way you could have a big transformation is by doing something very dramatic. I don't think that's true. I think we can have big transformation. That's not that dramatic except within. And better than before, you decided to write a book on habits. And if the audience hasn't seen your YouTube video explaining this, I would highly encourage them to check it out and I'll put it in the show notes. Oh, good. Why do you think the role of habit formation is so important creating happiness? And how

Starting point is 00:37:36 do you achieve the self-discipline to work on those habits? That's the million dollar question. I became interested in habits because when you talk about happiness, sometimes people don't know what would make them happier. But sometimes they know perfectly well what would make them happier. They know they would be happier if they read more instead of doom scrolling or they know they would be happier if they got more sleep or they know they'd be happier if they spent more time with their friends or if they ate more healthfully.

Starting point is 00:38:02 So they know what would make them happier, but they're not doing it. So that leads us to the problem of habit formation. Sometimes people wanna do a one time thing like clean out the basement, like a trivial example, but often when people wanna build their happiness, what they really wanna do is have a habit. They wanna exercise regularly and definitely.

Starting point is 00:38:23 They wanna eat healthfully forever. They want to read more consistently. So really this leads you to the issue of how people make and break habits. And what I found was that there are 21 strategies that we can use to make our break or habits. And what's funny is people sometimes be like, oh, that's too many. Give me the big three or give me the one that's the best. I'm like, well, there is. It's like that. And I always say, well, what's too many. Give me the big three or give me the one that's the best. And like, well, there is, it's like that, and I always say, well, what's the best way to cook an egg?

Starting point is 00:38:49 And it's like, well, it depends on how you like your eggs. Maybe you don't even like eggs. And it's like, what's the best way to change a habit? And like, well, it just depends on you because some of these strategies work really well for some people, but are actually counterproductive for other people. Some of them are available to us at some times in our lives, but not at other times in our lives.

Starting point is 00:39:08 Some are pretty universal and work for just about everybody. And so you really have to understand yourself and what works for you and kind of think about all your options, because it's good that there's so many to try, because that means that for all of us, we have a big bunch that we can apply. But what I did find was that it's very important to choose the strategies that work for you because some of these strategies really do not work for other people. And if you pick the wrong strategy, you're sort of setting yourself up not to succeed, not because there's anything wrong with you, not because you don't have willpower, not because you're lazy, not because you're not a real grown-up, but because you're setting yourself up in a way that's not right for you. And so it's not surprising that it's not working. And so,

Starting point is 00:39:56 and I think a lot of times people do get distracted by that. They're like, well, this work works really well for my brother-in-law, or this, my boss to do this. I read this great book and this person says to do this thing. And I'm trying and it's not working for me. So what's wrong with me? Instead of saying like, well, I learned something about myself, this approach, sounded appealing. It's not working for me. Now I need to move on to something else.

Starting point is 00:40:19 There's a lot of ways to achieve our aims. We just have to figure out what's right for us. What are the two types of expectations we all face and why are they important? Well, this is a key question. So this is what I found in my study of habits. Is that when you look at how people successfully or unsuccessfully face habit,

Starting point is 00:40:38 it always comes down to this question exactly as you say, expectations. We all face two kinds of expectations, outer expectations and inner expectations, an outer expectation like a work deadline or a request from a friend, and inner expectations like my own desire to keep a nearest resolution,

Starting point is 00:40:57 my own desire to get back into meditation. And what I found is that depending on whether people meet or resist outer and inner expectations, this puts them in different categories. And so I called this my four tendencies framework. I divide the world into these four categories of a pollers, questioners, a blighters, and rebels.

Starting point is 00:41:20 And knowing your tendency gives you enormous insight into how to set yourself up to successfully master a habit or if you're trying to help somebody else to do something or you're frustrated with the way somebody else behaves, often understanding their tendency will give you tremendous insight into that. Yeah, so you and I share something in common. We're both upholders. Good, Yes. So I'm one of the 3.5 million people who took your test. I would highly encourage anyone out there to do it because it's a fun. Quick test that you can take and once I started reading the definitions, it started putting a lot of things in perspective to me. Oh, good. What is something if you're an upholder

Starting point is 00:42:07 that you would do that in a bliger or a rebel wouldn't do? And we're the second smallest group, you and I, in the upholder tendency. The biggest tendency is a bliger. Maybe I should just, I'll briefly explain each of them, just so people can kind of have an idea of what they are. So upholders readily meet Adder and Inter expectation. They meet the work deadline,

Starting point is 00:42:29 they keep the nearest resolution without much fuss. They wanna meet others' expectations, but their expectations for themselves are just as important. So their motto is discipline is my freedom. And I can tell that you and I both agree with that. Then there are questioners, questioners, question all expectations. They'll do something if they think it makes sense.

Starting point is 00:42:48 They resist anything arbitrary, inefficient, unjustified. They have to know why. They tend to love to customize because they wanna make everything like work as efficiently as possible. So they're making everything an inter-expectation. If it meets their inner standard, they'll do it no problem.

Starting point is 00:43:03 If it fails, their inner standard, they'll do it no problem. If it fails their inner standard, they will push back. So their motto is, if you convince me why, then I'll comply. Then there are obligers. This is the biggest tendency for both men and women. A blighters readily meet outer expectations, but they struggle to meet inner expectations. So these are the people who never miss a deadline at work, but then they never like break a promise to somebody else, but then they have trouble keeping their promises to themselves. So anytime people talk about this, like, why is it that I can never keep my promises to myself, why can't I ever make myself a priority that is a blighter. And so the key for a blighter is outer accountability. If you want to meet an interact patient, you have to give yourself a form about our accountability. So if you want to exercise more, work out with a trainer, take a class, work out with a friend who's annoyed if you don't show up, take your dog for a run,

Starting point is 00:44:00 raise money for a charity, think about your duty to be a role model for someone else, there's a million ways to create out our accountability once you know that's what you need. So their motto is, you can count on me and I'm counting on you to count on me. And then finally, rebels. Rebels resist all expectations, adder and inner life. They want to do what they want to do in their own way, in their own time. They can do anything they want to do, anything they choose to do what they want to do in their own way, in their own time. They can do anything they want to do, anything they choose to do.

Starting point is 00:44:28 But if you ask her tell them to do something, they're very likely to resist. And typically they don't tell themselves what to do. Like they don't sign up for a 10 a.m. woodworking class on Saturday, because they think, well, I don't know what I want to do on Saturday and just the idea that someone's expecting me

Starting point is 00:44:41 to show up is gonna bug me. So their motto is, you can't make me me and neither can I. And so you can see how each of these tendencies would be wildly different and how they would set themselves up for success. So to an appolder like you and me, we probably don't need much accountability

Starting point is 00:45:02 because we just decide what we want to do and we're pretty good at executing, we put it on the calendar, we put it on the to-do list and okay fine. Whereas an obligatory really needs that outer accountability. And again, they're the biggest group, like there's nothing wrong with needing an outer accountability. I think sometimes obligatory sort of feel like there's something weak or wrong with needing outer accountability. There's something wrong with that.

Starting point is 00:45:23 A lot of people need that or accountability. Let's just get you what you need. There's nothing wrong with that. A lot of people need that or accountability. Let's just get you what you need. You don't need to change. I'm just change, change the setup. So yeah, knowing the tendencies can make it a lot easier to figure out how to set yourself up for success. Yes, I couldn't agree more.

Starting point is 00:45:39 And then in addition to that, you've created something called the Happier app, which I got a chance to play around with. Oh good. Yeah, so can you tell the audience a little bit about it and how it can help them? Yeah, the Happier app is meant it's a habit tracking tool and it starts helping you take the quiz and figure out your tendency and then it suggests tools. There's a variety of tools that might work better for you. So like, let's say you're a rebel.

Starting point is 00:46:05 Well, rebels often, they have to figure out how to keep habits in the way that's right for them. They often like the gamified things. So one of the tools for rebels is the photo log because that's sort of a playful, fun thing. And so like maybe one day, I want to exercise daily. So one day I'm going for run and one day I'm going for bike ride and one day I'm like going to go to a hike to the top of the hill and one day I'm doing yoga. I might just take a picture of it each time. This is kind of like a fun way to memorialize it and give myself that feeling of accomplishment, but I'm just doing it when I want to. And so it feels more playful and that is an easier and that's something that would appeal to a rebel more than someone like a questioner.

Starting point is 00:46:43 For a poll, there's like you and me, one of the tools that it suggests is that don't break the chain because a poll, there's tend to like that feeling of like, oh, I'm crossing something off the list like, oh, I'm, I check done finished and like seeing that streak build up. Yeah, it's very satisfying. Now, it's not that other, you can choose any tool you want. And if you're in a blighter who feels like, oh, I feel accountable to my don't break the chain log. And I feel like, ooh, this app is going to notice.

Starting point is 00:47:10 If I break it, I want to keep it up. Oh, absolutely use that for an obliger. So you can always use any tool that you want, but it will use your tendency to try to suggest a tool that from my experience in talking to people for years about the pretendancies, is more likely to be the kind of thing to start you out with a tool that's useful for you.

Starting point is 00:47:29 Like, questers love data, they love tracking, they love information. So there's a one set in journal where they can like, oh, I'm doing my daily workout and I want to track like how do I feel? And was it hard or easy? And like, do I feel like this was good? That tends to appeal to questers

Starting point is 00:47:44 because they love to gather that data. But again, a questioner might love a photo log. They want to keep, so you can do anything but it does try to point you, steer you in the right direction to get you started up with a helpful tool. Plus it has things like, it has quotations, it has, know yourself better questions.

Starting point is 00:48:00 Like, there's a lot of other kind of self-knowledge and setting intentions, information there, beyond the tools to kind of self-knowledge and setting intentions information there beyond the tools to sort of put you in the just to raise in your mind like the issues that are related to like setting yourself for a happier life. Yes, I think it's a great app. I've enjoyed my time using you're enjoying it. I think we were, I work with a brilliant team and we've been working really, really hard on it. So it's great to hear that you're finding it useful. I do. And I like how you can write in there.

Starting point is 00:48:31 What your intentions are in each bowl. So that's good. So I did want to cover in outer order intercom. You talk about that. I'm going to do a little bit of that. I'm going to do a little bit of that. I'm going to do a little bit of that. I'm going to do a little bit of that.

Starting point is 00:48:42 I'm going to do a little bit of that. I'm going to do a little bit of that. I'm going to do a little bit of that. I'm going to do a little bit of that. I'm going to do a little bit of that. I'm going to do a little bit of that. you can write in there, what your intentions are, and eat bowl. So that's good. So I did wanna cover an outer order intercom, you talk about decluttering, which I can tell you, for me is something I need to do more of. Why do you feel more energized when you get rid of things that we don't love? It's funny.

Starting point is 00:49:03 I think there's this disproportionate connection between outer order and kind of intercom and inner energy. And it just mystifies me because you could say, like in the context of a happy life, a crowded inbox or a messy closet, it's not a big deal. And yet over and over, people say to me, I feel lighter, I feel more focused,

Starting point is 00:49:26 I feel more energized. A friend of mine said, I finally cleaned out my fridge and now I know I can switch careers. I'm like, I know exactly how that feels. It's also true that when we get rid of the things that we don't need, don't use, don't love, we often feel like we have more. Like, I'm constantly trying to get myself, my friends to let me help them clear their closets because I love clearing I love clearing clutter and it's even more fun when it's somebody else's clutter because there's no emotional drain to it. And what people over and over say is like, Oh, now that I've gotten rid of so much, I feel like I have so much more. Because when you get rid of all this stuff that's sort of clogging the system and clouding your vision

Starting point is 00:50:03 and you're just more, you feel more connected with the things that you actually love. Like people said, I went through my kitchen, I gave away half of the stuff, and now I cook so much more because I just feel more energized to use these things. So I do feel like it's kind of strange how much energy people get from it, but over and over people say they do, but I will say this, there is a small number of people who are clutter blind. And my sister Elizabeth, she's one of these people, so I know it well. And they just don't care. It doesn't bother them. My sister would not close a cabinet door for the rest of her life if she lived by herself. She just

Starting point is 00:50:41 doesn't see it. I go over there, I clear her clutter, I have so much fun. But she's like, yeah, like on balance, she likes it, but she doesn't really care. That's a small number of people, but you usually know when you're dealing with somebody who's cluttered blind. But back to this idea of knowing yourself, I don't think you can just say to somebody,

Starting point is 00:51:00 like you will feel better if you clear clutter, because for some people, they don't care. Now, we all have to create environments that other people live and work in, and so sometimes you have to do things so that other people feel comfortable in an environment, but that's very different from saying, I'm right, you're wrong.

Starting point is 00:51:18 These are really about preferences. Okay, well, now we're gonna go into the final part of the interview, and this is one that the audience tends to really love. It's a living round of questions. So I would just ask that you go, you just give quick answers insistent. So yeah, okay, Elizabeth gave that to me. In the happiness project you list out your own 12 commandments is be Gretchen the most important. Absolutely. Yes, that's still I think about that every day. I think about that every day. Okay, this one's a little bit different. We're talking about doing space exploration and going to the moon and going to Mars. If you got selected by the program to be the first person to step foot on Mars and you could lay out a rule, a regulation, and anthem, what would it be for that planet? No, they're self. Okay. Classic.

Starting point is 00:52:30 What is the strategy of the lightning bolt? Oh, this is all the 21 strategies that you can use to make a brick or have it. This is one that sort of is not within your control. It's something that happens to you. It's when you read a book, have a conversation, have a realization, and all of a sudden your habits just changed effortlessly. You find out you're pregnant.

Starting point is 00:52:58 You find out you're pre-diabetic. Whatever it is, all of a sudden habits can change. And sometimes people don't realize that that's what's happened. And so they don't sort of take, take steps to, to keep that habit going. And people are often frustrated because the strategy lightning bolt is so kind of effortless compared to the other ones, but it's not really something that we can induce, it's something that happens to us from the outside. Okay, and last question, in your book, Happier at Home, each month has a theme

Starting point is 00:53:35 like marriage, parenthood, neighborhood, et cetera. Which one, now that you reflect back on it, do you feel is the most important? one now that you reflect back on it, do you feel is the most important? Well, maybe the thing that I hadn't thought about enough is neighborhood is just thinking about really dialing into this idea of the people around you, your community, the values of your community, how to serve your community. I had, that was the first time that I really thought deeply about that. And so that stands out for me in that book.

Starting point is 00:54:11 Well, Gretchen, thank you for such an amazing interview. I know the audience is just gonna absolutely love this. Thank you, yeah, for coming on the show. Oh, well, I feel like we can talk all day. We're interested in so many of the same things. Thank you for having me. It was so fun. What an incredible interview that was

Starting point is 00:54:27 with the one and only Gretchen Rubin and Gretchen. Thank you so much again for coming on our show. It means so much to us in our audience. And I would highly encourage you to check out for a podcast, Happiness with Gretchen Rubin, that she does with her sister Elizabeth Pratt. I also wanted to mention some of the additional incredible guests that we've got coming up on the podcast.

Starting point is 00:54:47 These include Admiral James Stavridas, and we will be doing the book launch for his new book to risk it all on May 24th. Top podcast host Jordan Harbinger and Kathy Heller, as well as my friend's Trisha Manning, F-18 pilot Keegan Gill, and Vice Admiral Sandy Stoats. If you're new to the show or you would just like to introduce us to a friend or family member, we now have episode starter packs, which are collections of your favorite episodes organized by topic, both on Spotify and our website. These give you such a great way to get acquainted to everything that we do here on the show. Just go to passionstruck.com slash starter packs to get started. And if you have a recommendation for guests like Rechen Riven or a topic that you would like to hear me discuss on my momentum Friday episodes, please reach out to us at momentum Friday at passionstruck.com. Make sure you use a catchy subject line, keep the email short and to the point. That will make it

Starting point is 00:55:44 so much easier for us to go through. And if you don't want to send an email, you can also reach out to us on Instagram at John Armiles or on LinkedIn at John Miles. We truly appreciate you being here today and giving us the ability to have guests like Gretchen Ruben join our show. Thank you so much for your continued support

Starting point is 00:56:02 and helping our podcast become one of the most popular in the world. Now go out there and live life passion-struck. Thank you so much for joining us. The purpose of our show is to make passion go viral. And we do that by sharing with you the knowledge and skills that you need to unlock your hidden potential. If you want to hear more, please subscribe the PassionStruct podcast on Spotify, iTunes, Stitcher or wherever you listen to your podcast ad. And if you absolutely love this episode,

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Starting point is 00:57:09 Thank you again for joining us. you

Passion Struck with John R. Miles - Gretchen Rubin on the Key to Happiness Is Knowing Yourself EP 134

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